Following are selected posts to the Holisticat (TM) Mailing List on the subject of taurine. There's a lot of information here, and the posts are arranged in ascending chronological order. If there is a particular word you're looking for, it's probably best to utilize the "Find in Page" function in your edit menu!

Happy hunting :)

<28 Jul 98 From Sandy A Re Adding taurine to canned food>

Hi all,

I was pleasantly surprised to read the info on feline  nutrition at the Iams website:

http://www.iams.com/fftfb/library/tpn/1-11095.htm

Check this out tho..do u think most human companions of  cats know this about the so-called "balanced"  diet commercial pet food is purported to be?  Don't answer that! <g>
___
Current recommendations for taurine in cat foods are 1000  mg/kg of diet on a dry matter basis for dry products, and, because of the effect of the canning  process, 2500 mg/kg for canned products.4 In dry food, the taurine requirements can be met by using animal protein  sources, although some companies merely add taurine to the formulation, preferring to rely on plant
proteins and risking the possibility that there may be other undiscovered protein-related requirements. Canned products generally require the addition of taurine unless the product contains a naturally high taurine  content (such as fish).
__

Sandy

Phyllida wrote:
<<what about Taurine? By cooking will I no longer be providing taurine in his food?? >>

I think Pitcairn has some charts in his book and ballpark estimate - plan on losing 2/3 the taurine so supplement accordingly.  Also, u will have to add enzymes since those will be lost too, to some extent anyway. [snip]

Sandy and the poor abused mountain cats who eat lousy healthy food <pout>

Hey ya'll-
[snip]
Phyllida- I would add taurine to cooked meats. I know Ann has never added supplements, but since excess taurine is not stored
by cats, then it can't hurt to supplement. Here are some taurine numbers that were posted in reply to my taurine question on
another list (taken from Nutrient Requirements of Cats, Revised Edition 1986)

The values are mg/kg as fed raw (cooked in parentheses)
Beef muscle 362 (60)
Beef liver 192
Beef Kidney 225
Lamb muscle 473 (126)
Pork muscle 496 (118)
Chicken muscle 337 (82)

Since a kg = 2.2 lbs approx (which is what, about 35 ounces?) cooked meat doesn't contain enough taurine. The breeder that
posted these numbers and a holistic vet I know online both supplement raw meat w/ about 75 mgs of taurine a day just to be
safe.

Vick, Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel

Hey ya'll-

a few of you asked about my exchange w/ Chris Cowell, the Hill's Nutritionist at Vetmed. Chris, as usual, was kind enough to grant  forwarding permission, so here is his reply, w/ my enquiry first.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date:    9/19/98 From Vick
Hi All-

Without getting into the whole raw diet debate, I was hoping to pick ya'lls brains on a couple questions I have on feeding cats a  raw diet.

One of my cats eats an all-raw diet, and at his vet visit today, I fielded a few questions/comments that have left me thinking.

1) Taurine. How much taurine does a cat need daily? I seem to recall that it is between 50 - 100 mgs. From all my research into
a raw diet, I was left with the impression that raw meat supplies sufficient taurine. My cat eats about 4-6 oz of meat a day, with
a small ammt. of veggie and grain. He also gets bone meal to balance out the Phosphorus. Any comments  on the ammt. of taurine in what he eats?
[snip]

Vick,

Minimum supplementation amounts of taurine for cats should be 500-1000 mg/kg of diet.  If your cat is consuming about 300 g of food per day, this would be about 150-300 mg of taurine per day.  So, you may want to supplement  more.

Hi Lee,

Well, just as a matter of trivia, 1 tablespoon - level not heaping, mind you -  equals approximately 14 grams. Course this would depend entirely on the material in question in that tablespoon and I haven't a clue what the average density of a typical mouse is, so this is really a rough guess. But if go with this unscientific guesstimate, your kitty will get about 34 mg of taurine per average mousie. Now was that the average field mouse, house mouse, free-range or grain feed mouse I wonder? Could it be based on a white lab mouse? <gasp>  That throws all the calculations off....  LOL

Be well,
Nancy and the furkids

On Friday, January 08, 1999 12:53 PM, Jnglecats@ wrote:

<<In a message dated 1/8/99 9:47:21 AM Pacific Standard Time, kashmir@netbistro.com writes:
Taurine supplementation will not hurt. Puotinen says that the typical   mouse supplies 2.4 mg per gram of taurine. Beef = .2 mg; Beef liver = .1 mg;   chicken = .2 mg; eggs = .1 mg; milk = .05 mg; clams = 1 mg. >>

It looks like we're back to mousies again.  How strange that a mouse should  supply more taurine per gram than other types of meat.  Did he say anything  about how much taurine a cat needs per day?  My cats get ground beef/turkey  with 20-25% of the mix being beef liver.

I wonder how many grams are in a heaping tablespoon? <gg>
Lee

Hi All, Here is an information from Vegetarian Society about cat's diet.
[snip]

Cats require certain nutrients from meat that cannot be obtained in sufficient amounts from plant foods. These include taurine,
arachidonic acid, vitamin A, and vitamin B12.

Taurine
Taurine is an amino acid essential for cats but not for other mammals. In the prolonged absence of taurine, a cat's retina slowly
degenerates and the cat suffers eye problems and can become irreversibly blind. This condition is called central retinal
degeneration (CRD). Cow's milk is a poor source of taurine and there is none in plant foods. The only rich source is meat.
[snip]
-- Yumi

Dawn Marie wrote:
[snip]
<<I am new at this nutrition concern, but I am appalled at what's in  commercial cat foods, and that for example, they lacked taurine for so long.>>

Interestingly, the Iams site had a blurb on it sometime back where it said that even now, people who feed commercial wet food should supplement w/ taurine.  I just went to the site and can't find that  article. But I know I posted about it a yr ago so will go find it in my folders if anyone is interested.

FWIW, I don't see anything wrong w/ table scraps.  Dunno how they got a bad rap.  When I was a kid, people's pets were fed table scraps and I didn't see them dying of kidney failure at age 4 like we do now!  As long as it's just a small % of their diet and the rest is balanced, I doubt it will hurt a kitty.

Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats who always get bites of steak from their daddy.

Taurine is converted from methionine and cysteine, and with a help from  sulfur, change to taurine. And need sodium and chloride to transport it.

According to Taurine content in foods by H. Pasantes-Morales in Nutrition reports international, oct. 1989:

The taurine content of foods including fruits, vegetables, seeds, nuts, cereals, meat, seafood, and dairy products was examined in this study. The highest concentration of taurine was found in clams and octopus (41.4 micromoles/g and 31.2 micromoles/g), followed by shrimp and fish (12.4 micromoles/g and 9.1 micromoles/g). Beef, pork and lamb meat contain taurine in concentrations ranging 3.5-4.0 micromoles/g. Taurine concentration in chicken leg was 6.6 micromoles/g and in chicken breast was 1.4 micromoles/g. No taurine was found either in hen eggs (yolk or white) or in dairy products or in honey. Taurine was undetectable in fruits and vegetables. From the seeds, cereals and grains examined, rice, corn, oatmeal, rye, wheat, barley, sesame seed, coffee and cacao, contain no taurine. Pumpkin seeds contain 13.5 nmoles/g, black beans 9.2 nmoles/g, horse beans 12.9 nmoles/g, and chick peas 18.7 nmoles/g. No taurine was detected in peanuts. Walnuts, almonds, cashews, hazelnuts and pinenuts contained taurine in concentrations ranging 15-46 nmoles/g. Pistachios contained very low amounts of taurine (4.9 nmoles/g). All analysis were carried out in uncooked samples. The interest of these results is considered in terms of reported evidences on the deletereous consequences of taurine deficiency in animals and humans.

As you can tell from this, plant materials are not the good source for taurine. According to Cornell, cats need 1000mg (1 gram) of taurine per 2.2 lb. of food they eat.  canned food should have 2000mg per 1 kg  (2.2 lbs) I cannot tell you how much meat will contain enough methionine and cysteine to make sufficient amount of taurine. But if you feed raw meat diet to the cats, I'm sure they are getting enough without the supplementation.

--Yumi

Hey all --
[snip]
I talked it over w/ the vet online who gets stuck w/ all my questions (and actually answers them all, too!). She said that the info she had was that cats need 500 mgs per kg of dry matter fed (1 kg = approx 2.2 pounds) but that she basically agrees with Pitcairn that raw diets have enough taurine for cats as they are fed.

However, she does add 500mgs of taurine to 3-4 days worth of food for her 2 cats. She also quoted the following taurine values from Celeste Yarnall's book Natural Cat Care

• beef muscle (raw) averages 360 mg/kg of meat
• chicken meat, about 330 mg/kg.
• beef liver about 190

As a result of my 'conversations' with her, I usually add about 1/3 of a taurine capsule to Skippy and Sam's daily rations.

Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel

According to the breakdown of nutrients in nutritional yeast (for those who feed it) taurine is present in reltatively high quantities (30mg/tablet or 1/2 tsp).

Tracey

<<<I thought that one of the great benefits of a raw food diet was that the raw food contained taurine.  I don't see the need to add taurine to the food at all.  In packaged food the taurine is missing because of the processing of the meat (or whatever they use <rbg>).>>>

<<That has been my question all along.  I haven't been adding taurine for just that reason.  Others, however, have indicated that supplemental taurine may be desirable.>>

I just spoke with my holistic vet on that very question.  I currently feed mine a diet of half raw and half dry (as per the recommendation of my vet).  She says this diet should satisfy their need for taurine, but that -- since no one is absolutely certain -- it would be safest to add some small amount of taurine (she suggested a mere 50 mgs/day).

Both of my boys died of dilated cardiomyopathy, and I think she is trying to be extra cautious for their sisters.

My understanding is that everyone is in agreement on the need for taurine, and even possibly that there is agreement on the amount needed, but that individual cats may absorb different amounts from their food. My understanding is also that it is hard to OD a cat on taurine. Tossing in some taurine won't hurt and may help a lot.

Then again, I may be wrong. (Nah)  :>
Kate

Hello Beth...

<<Help! I unwittingly got myself embroiled in a hot debate with someone (a vegan) over whether or not cats can thrive on a vegan diet.  He  feeds his cats a vegan diet and uses a product called "Vegecat" which he claims gives his cats all of the nutritional supplements they need. I  maintain that cats require a meat-based diet.  He has challenged me to cite scientific evidence of this. So, does anyone know of any studies that I can refer him to?>>

I'm certainly no expert on cat nutrition, and I can't cite any specific studies....but here is what Diane Stein says in THE NATURAL
REMEDY BOOK FOR DOGS & CATS , p. 24:

"Raw meat is the central ingredient in optimal diets for both dogs and cats.  Both animals are carnivores and require flesh-derived protein to live and thrive.  Dogs can possibly survive on a careful (very careful) vegetarian diet plus supplements, but cats cannot. With the amino acid taurine, found only in flesh-based protein, a cat will die in less than a year.  Synthetic taurine supplements that claim to make cats vegans are available, but the jury is still out on their long-term safety and effectiveness.  Dogs and cats need their natural diets of meat, grain, and vegetables, and a responsible pet guardian provides it.  Even though that guardian her/himself may be a happy vegetarian, her/his pets require meat."

Other books I have read strongly advise against feeding cats a strictly vegetarian diet.

Diane (and the resident carnivores, Motley and Taz)

Hi Tami

<<I was reading on the holisticat site that some supplement with taurine, how many do? And where would I find it?
Pet supply store?>>

Because taurine is so crucial for cats (its lack can cause dilated cardiomyopathy and/or retinal degeneration and blindness) a lot of us - me included - do add it to the food. It's even more necessary to add it to cooked foods since cooking destroys approx half the taurine in the meat. I get mine at the HFS too, like Debbie - it comes in 500mg capsules filled with fine crystals. One 500mg capsule is a scant 1/4 tsp. I feed my healthy cat, Amber, between 50 and 70mg a day.

Since the cat is so obstinately carnivorous :) there is a suggestion that cats might do better on animal-based rather than vegetable-based taurine.  Also my local HFS explained that "free form" is most easily assimilable. One brand that's been recommended to me is by Amino Life, New York; it's an animal based taurine, free form, 60 caps, 500g per cap - says contains no
wheat, corn, yeast, dairy or any other filler.

Jean, Saski Basket & That-Amber

Hi Melissa

<< Just wondering.....if one capsule is 500 mg and you only give Amber  50-70 a day, how do you make sure it is not more than that? I mean, do you  measure a certain amount of the powder(after you take it out of the capsule)  or what? >>

Yes, because my other cat Saski has cardiomyopathy, I supplement him  with a lot of extra taurine, so I find it easier to empty out a lot of the capsules into a little brown pill bottle and measure it out with a 1/4 tsp measuring spoon. As I mentioned, 1/4 tsp equals 500mg, so I just roughly estimate how much Amber needs at 50 to 75mg a day (1/8 tsp = 250mg, 1/16 tsp=125mg, 1/32 tsp=75mg) - so it's just a pinch for Amber.

<<I'm curious because I am going to have to start doing this for my  Angel to supplement her raw/cooked diet. I don't want to accidentally give  her TOO MUCH of any one vit/supplement. >>

Apparently it's hard to overdose a cat on taurine - it isn't stored in the body for any length of time, so I'd rather err on the safe side.

<<DO you know how much kitties are  supposed to have each day total and how much they normaly get from raw meat
(chicken or beef)?>>

Some time ago Vick posted this info from a vet:

<<However, [the vet] does add 500mgs of taurine to 3-4 days worth of food for her 2 cats. She also quoted the following taurine values from Celeste Yarnall's book Natural Cat Care

• beef muscle (raw) averages 360 mg/kg of meat
• chicken meat, about 330 mg/kg.
• beef liver about 190

Here's more info from a post by Yumi on a study done by Cornell on uncooked food:

<<The highest concentration of taurine was found in clams and octopus (41.4 micromoles/g and 31.2 micromoles/g), followed by shrimp and fish (12.4 micromoles/g and 9.1 micromoles/g). Beef, pork and lamb meat contain taurine in concentrations ranging 3.5-4.0 micromoles/g. Taurine concentration in chicken leg was 6.6 micromoles/g and in chicken breast was 1.4 micromoles/g.>>

I don't know what a micromole is <g> but at least we can make a rough comparison.

Also from Yumi:
<<According to Cornell, cats need 1000mg (1 gram) of taurine per 2.2 lb. of food they eat.>>

[snip]
Jean, Saski Basket & That-Amber