Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 11:25:45 -0500
From: Vick <vick@

Hey all --

<<Reprinted with permission from the September/October 1992 issue of Tiger Tribe>>

Michelle, thanks for posting this article... makes me realize what a great asset we lost when Tiger Tribe went kaput :(

<< "And I am convinced that FUS in cats is also vaccination-related."  "The rabies vaccination in dogs and cats causes so many problems it  isn't funny.  It causes personality changes...">>

I have been wondering about this for a long time.... When I added Max to the family in January '97, I had to update Skippy and Sam on rabies, since I adopted Max thru Animal Sevices. I also got the distemper vaccine, and most of you know that the resulting catastrophe of illness in Skip and Sam is what led me to a more natural approach....

However, some months later, Sam began spraying in earnest. And since that point, he has been very cat aggressive and hateful toward Max and now Jezebel. He still tolerates Skippy.... Sam also has FUS/FLUTD....

Hmmmm... anyone else see stuff like this after vaccination? Esp. for rabies?
--
Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel

<<Ok, here goes - I'm getting a foster kitten, approximately 3-4 mos. old, seems to have a goopy eye - URI, no vaccinations.  Sandy and I were discussing nosodes, I was discussing with another friend the intranasal, at least for panleukemia, but I can't get it for at least a month.  Any suggestions?  And if we go with nosodes, should it be the rhino-calici-panleuk like the vets
normally give?  Or should we add the feline leukemia or other nosodes? >>

(putting on flame suit in preparation for people defending one viewpoint or another <G>)

I know (only through e-mail conversations) several dog and cat breeders that use and strongly believe in the concept of nosodes.  At this point, I don't think there's been enough anecdotal or clinical evidence that they will protect as well as initial vaccines.  But wait, I did not say continue to vaccinate after the initial series!  You have far more experience since you show and have talked to many breeders as to the "dangerous" kitty diseases out there.  Is it possibly to get the panleuk separately from the rhino-calici?  The information I sent to you last year implies that "at risk cats only" should be given the FVR and FC.    If you use the  intranasal, the approximate duration of immunity from the information I have is at least four years or more.  Even when I was vaccinating my cats regularly, they never received a feline leuk. vaccine; I had Giddy tested a couple years ago at the age of 17 and he was negative. I don't really feel it's necessary.

I do not show my cats, nor will I probably be in a situation where I'm doing that.  HOWEVER, I can share with  you some parallel examples with my dog (and this is just to illustrate the effectiveness of well timed vaccinations) which I will send you via private e-mail.

If you haven't read "Who Killed the Darling Buds of May?" you may want to consider it; Catherine O'Driscoll also has a new book out giving further info. about vaccinations and I believe she includes some info. on nosodes. She believes strongly in the effectiveness of nosodes.  You should also have a look at the altvetmed site, where there is some info. posted on a nosode clinical trial that was conducted.  The best trial done using nosodes was done by Christopher Day in 1985 using vaccinations, a
combination of nosodes and vaccinations or just nosodes.  It was done with kennel cough and was a good study with controls built in to the study.  The results were that the nosodes were an effective way of preventing kennel cough and could actually stop an outbreak.  I found that pretty interesting since kennel cough is a virus and shares some similarities with the common
cold, which as of yet, they have not found a method of preventing.  Kennel cough is almost never a killer disease like parvo or panleukopenia can be, so I'd like to see some trials on diseases such as this.

What I would do is give an initial series of vaccines (probably three) and then stop; doing titers if you want extra assurance.  If an animal shows a definitive vaccine reaction, of course, don't continue.  I guess I've been lucky, because my cats never got any vaccine reactions at the site of injection, nor did they have any reactions that could definitively be traced to the vaccinations.  There's also quite a bit of evidence that has shown that modified live vaccines afford far longer protectiveness and higher titers than killed vaccines.  The advantage to using the nosodes is that it would be easier to give them separately and, along with the advice of a good homeopathic vet or an experienced breeder, work out a dosage schedule which you can monitor.

Hope this is the type of information you wanted, as I was happy to take the time to write it :)

Leah

<<but I am concerned about the rhinotraceitis, calici, and especially panleukemia (as there was a recent outbreak at a cattery that does not vaccinate - 14 cats, mostly kittens, died).>>

I had an experience with this that shows how important timing is with the vaccines.  I think I even mentioned it on this list in the past.  Many years ago, about 1979 or 1980, I got a little black adorable kitten.  He had the complete series of shots, including panleukopenia.  Although I don't remember the exact timing of his illness, he became sick when he was around five months old or so.  If I knew what I know now, I would have recognized the symptoms as panleukopenia.  That poor kitty hung on for about three weeks, three different vets saw him during that period of time.  When he breathed his last breath on my lap in the vet's office, I decided to have an autopsy done (I know that's not the proper terminology - is it necropsy?).  At any rate, the results were that he died from a "panleukopenia type" illness.  I now believe that his vaccinations were timed such that he received the first set at too young of an age.  Maternal antibodies were still in place and had an effect on his vaccinations being
complete.  Lesson learned - vaccinations can protect, but there are several factors entering into the complete picture.

Leah

[SNIP unrelated to vaccinations]

Leah said:
<< I know (only through e-mail conversations) several dog and cat breeders  that use and strongly believe in the concept of nosodes.  At this point, I  don't think there's been enough anecdotal or clinical evidence that they  will protect as well as initial vaccines.  But wait, I did not say continue to vaccinate after the initial series!  You have far more experience since  you show and have talked to many breeders as to the "dangerous" kitty diseases out there.  Is it possibly to get the panleuk separately from the  rhino-calici?  The information I sent to you last year implies that "at>>

I agree with you on the nosodes not providing protection. Homeopathy is about curing, not prevention.

Yes, you can get panleukopenia separate and in a intra nasal. HESKA makes it. It should be administered to a kitten at 14+ weeks of age. The panleukopenia vaccine is the only vaccine to provide 100% protection. I wouldn't bother with the URI vaccines. There are too many strains out there for a vaccine to provide protection. I've seen cats fully vaccinated get URI. With good nursing you can pull a kitten through URI, then you have a natural immunity, much better than the artificial kind.

Michelle
BLAKKATZ Cattery

Michelle T. <mbernard@> writes
<< I agree with you on the nosodes not providing protection. Homeopathy is about curing, not prevention.

Yes, you can get panleukopenia separate and in a intra nasal. HESKA makes it. It should be administered to a kitten at 14+ weeks of age. The panleukopenia vaccine is the only vaccine to provide 100% protection. I wouldn't bother with the URI vaccines. There are too many strains out there for a vaccine to provide protection. I've seen cats fully vaccinated get URI. With good nursing you can pull a kitten through URI, then you have a natural immunity, much better than the artificial kind.>>

I have had adult cats fully vaccinated get URI too  (as a result of kittens being vaccinated).  Not nice.  One of mine nearly died.  I  totally agree about the vaccinations not providing proper protection but the logic is supposed to be that cats vaccinated will not get such a severe illness.  Mine still did,  but the one that nearly died was pregnant at the time.

I agree about the immunity being better,  but then you also have carriers of the URI viruses.  Herpes carriers are for life, with calici only about 20 percent of carriers can ever eliminate the virus.  How would you suggest dealing with the carriers in a breeding situation?
--
Naomi J
Vervain Asians & Burmese & Cosy Cats Boarding Cattery

Hey all --

<<since she already seems to have a URI, I have a feeling I can't give  her any vaccines today anyway, especially an intranasal if she's got a   stuffed nose. >>

Lee, any chance of keeping her isolated and supporting her thru the URI with homeopathy symptomatically? She'll have great natural immunity as a result. The combo vaccines scare the dickens outta me since they nearly killed Skip and Sam a couple years ago. Max came w/ a URI and recovered nicely, in no time, whereas Skip and Sam developed one from their vaccines that the vet said would protect them from Max.....

If panleuk worries ya, I'd at least wait til she's been healthy for some time before hitting her w/ a vaccine, intranasal or no. All the vaccines say on the label not to administer to sick animals.

Just my take.....

Good luck today :) And on behalf of one formerly soon-to-be homeless kitten, I'm damn glad you're "the fool" who said she'd foster her!
--
Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel

Nancy, might this help?  It's the new 3 yr vax protocol from Cornell. http://web.vet.cornell.edu/public/fhc/vaccinesbr.htm

There is a really wonderful holistic vet on the CRF list, and she gave mer permission to send this to the list.   Nancy, dunno if this will score points w/ your mum and her vet, but u never know.

This is her perspective on vaccinations.  I'm so disappointed we couldn't move to the South Bay area cuz that's where she practices in SoCal.  Boo hoo!  Anyway, her posts follows:
_______________

Hi Everyone,

The thinking on vaccinations for pets has been in a period of transition for the last 7 years or so.

Basically, there are two main areas of concern:

1.) The vaccine-site cancers

2.) Questioning of duration of immunity for vaccines

I'll address these issues one at a time.

1.) Both the Feline Leukemia vaccine and the Feline Rabies vaccine have been associated with a very aggressive form of cancer in cats.  The cancer type is called a fibrosarcoma, sometimes referred to as vaccosarcoma.

This type of cancer shows up at the site of vaccination (in most cases over the shoulderblades) as a firm lump which doesn't go away.  It is usually noticable within a few weeks/months of vaccination.  It tends to grow rapidly, even after surgical removal, sometimes completely re-growing within a month after removal.  More aggressive treatments (such as in-site chemotherapy/ radiation at the time of surgery, with follow-up treatments post-surgically) have served to slow down re-growth, but it's still a very nasty form of cancer.

Since the practice of giving multiple vaccines all in the same place could have increased the likelihood of cancer, it's now recommended to give separate vaccines in separate places in the body.

So far, the FVRC-P (Feline Viral Rhinotracheitis/Calici/Panleukopenia) vaccine has not been associated with the cancer.

If you have questions about whether your cat *needs* to receive the Feline Leukemia vaccine and/or the Rabies vaccine, discuss these with your veterinarian.  As others on this list have alluded to, factors to be considered are the risk vs. benefit: ie, how likely is your cat to be exposed to these viruses versus the risk of cancer.........

2.) For the last several years, we veterinarians have been seriously questioning whether *yearly* vaccinations are truly needed.  Apparently, when research was done on how long a vaccine will protect against a disease, the research (by the companies making the vaccines!) was not carried out longer than a year, so there wasn't information about whether the protection lasts *longer* than a year.  We are now accumulating data which seems more and more to show that protection may last *several years*.

From a cynical? realistic? point of view, it would behoove the vaccine companies to say the vaccines were good for only one year, for then they'd have people having to buy more of their product every year, not every several years.

Also, annual vaccines have been a hallmark of the veterinary practice for many years; this is where most veterinary hospitals received their bedrock income.  We truly have believed that our patients *needed* these annual vaccines, for this had been pounded into us from vet school on, but, in addition to questioning a "fact" which you've always considered incontrovertible, veterinarians are going to have to re-structure their economic base if vaccines aren't needed yearly.

Speaking from personal experience, I had always gone along with the yearly vaccination dogma until I started attending some holistic veterinary seminars and reading holistically-oriented literature on the harm vaccines can do.  My first thought was, "Oh, those horror stories aren't true - *I've* never seen all those problems they're talking about".  Yes, I had seen some puppies/kittens with vaccine reactions of fever, hives, swollen faces, but I seriously questioned the stories of more generalized harm coming from the holistic practitioners.  However, it started me thinking and observing. I *had* noticed that, over the last 10-15 years, there seemed to be a great increase in the number of my patients with allergies, autoimmune disease (such as inflammatory bowel disease, autoimmune hemolytic anemia, etc.), and immunosuppression.

Then, one day I gave some annual vaccines to a teen-age Siamese patient. The owners mentioned that, in the past, he'd seemed to not feel well following a vaccination.  He also had had some elevated kidney values in the recent past, but a blood test done at the time of the vaccination showed these values to only be mildly elevated.  Well, about 3-4 weeks after that vaccine, his kidney failure became full-blown.  In spite of intensive care, he succumbed to his disease within a few weeks.

From then on, I'd check when older pets came in with serious illnesses. Often, a vaccine had been given within a few weeks prior to the appearance of symptoms.

Given all of this, what are my current thoughts?  I'll try to summarize my thinking below:

a.) As with most of my colleagues, I consider that "the jury is still out" regarding how frequently vaccines should be given.  We're in that confusing stage where we're seriously questioning previous knowledge, but **we haven't yet come up with firm facts to replace that knowledge.**

b.) As several people on this list have stated, I think at this point that things must be taken on a case-by-case basis.  As stated above with the vaccosarcoma, the risk-vs-benefit ratio has to be considered: how likely is an individual animal to be exposed/come down with the specific disease(s) vs the risk of problems from that vaccine.  I think each person needs to have a serious conversation with his/her veterinarian regarding these issues.

c.) One thing that can help people in this area is that tests are being developed to determine the antibody levels in an individual animal for the infectious agents in the various vaccines.  *The tests cannot say with absolute certainty that an individual animal has absolute protection against an agent*, but, if their antibody levels are high, there's a good chance they are protected.  As the accuracy of these tests is improved, and as we have a better idea of what levels are likely to indicate good immunity, we can test individual animals periodically to see if they *need* boosting.

d.) Some holistic practitioners are completely against any vaccinations whatever, feeling that the introduction of foreign matter into the body can only produce harm.  They strongly feel that, by keeping an animal's body strong with a good, natural diet, and otherwise keeping their immune system strong, the animal will be automatically protected against infectious agents. At the most, they recommend homeopathic nosodes of infectious agents to stimulate protection (homeopathic nosodes would take a whole 'nother article to explain, so I won't go into it here.)  My personal opinion here is I believe that would be true in an ideal world, but I believe that, in our modern civilization, with all the toxic chemicals, stress, inbreeding leading to genetic weakness, etc, more is (unfortunately) necessary.

e.) What are my personal recommendations regarding vaccines? I'm also still in transition, but at this point I'm tending to go along with the recommendations of the American Association of Feline Practioners: they feel, that after the vaccine series in young animals, vaccination every 3 years is probably sufficient.

However, I also take everything on a case-by-case basis.  If I have a patient who lives indoors only, whose family is not prone to adopt strays, I'm going to be more relaxed in my vaccine recommendations.  On the other hand, if my patient goes outside where there are a lot of stray cats, or the family tends to adopt strays, or there are wild animals in the area, or there are kids in the family likely to leave the door open so the cat could escape and be exposed to other animals, I'm more likely to recommend more vaccines/more frequent vaccination.

I *am* leery of frequent vaccinations in older pets.  When I first graduated in 1968, the thinking then was to give the kitten/puppy series, and then maybe vaccines for a few years after that, but that older animals had sufficient immunity and didn't need vaccinations.  I'm tending toward that again.

If I have a client who's open to a holistic approach, I'll recommend a homeopathic remedy around the time of vaccination to help offset any adverse reactions.

One last thing, I wanted to clarify the matter of an animal having to be euthanized to see if it has rabies:  if an animal bites a human and the bite is reported, then the animal has to be put into quarantine.  The laws regarding this quarantine vary from area to area in this country.  Some areas allow the animal to be quarantined at home, others insist they be quarantined in a veterinary hospital or pound or other such facility where they can be isolated from other animals and observed closely/carefully for signs of rabies.  The quarantine period is shorter if they're current on their rabies vaccine.  If they're current, it can be as short as 10 days; if unvaccinated or overdue, it can be 30 days or longer.  The animal is only euthanized if it shows signs of rabies (usually extreme aggression, although rabies sometimes causes extreme fear/hiding.  The former was agonizingly portrayed in the Disney film, *Old Yeller*).  The rabies virus is only readily found in the brain of an animal who dies showing signs of the disease; this is why the euthanasia is delayed until the signs appear.  If the animal never shows signs, it can be released after the quarantine period is up - pending the say-so of a veterinarian and the proper authorities.

Kathleen
Kathleen M. Carson, D.V.M.

I hope I am not repeating something I posted previously, but if I am I am sorry but this may save a kitten's life. In one of the Persian publications I get it warned about using the intra/ocular, intra/nasal vaccine on kittens being fed raw diets. My cats only specialist vet had wanted me to try a new vaccine protocol since I show and he thought it would be a good idea to help protect babies from any URI's that may be brought home from a show. Though I do not mix adults being shown with kittens in the nursery, he still thought it might be worth trying.

He recommended to put one drop of the Trivalent MLV (now called Heska vaccine)intra/nasal in one eye and each nostril at 3 weeks old. One dose takes care of litter of 5 if you should be lucky to have large litters, the rest if any left to mom cat.  Then MLV injectable at 8 and 12 weeks I tried this with a couple of litters and all seemed ok as I weaned on ad, and do not give my pet quality raw diet as I feel that most pet people don't no matter what you try to tell them, and I give away pets at times, so I did not want pet quality to get used to raw diet if they were just going to be pulled off it by pet owner.

OK had a litter of 6 from my grand champion, all were fat and sassy, mom eats only Carnivore, my vet also believes in early weaning at 5 weeks (to start), since entire litter was either top show or high breeder I started weaning them on the raw meat. within 1 week of starting one looked funny to me, glazed look in eyes and faded, 2 others started to get mild URI and I brought them to the vet, and put them on clavamox and sub q fluids twice a day for a week. Kittens rallied, I had separated them from the other 3 who were still doing fine.

I started feeding raw meat again, kittens died within 48 hours, necropsy revealed salmonella poisoning.  Had to be the meat.  Carnivore specifically states not to wean onto raw meat and wait till 4 months old to introduce raw,  but many breeders do, and I had before with no problems so this was a real puzzler. When I got Persian magazine there was an article on Salmonella poisoning killing kittens that were given the intra nasal. Apparently even if the meat was fresh or if salmonella exists in the cattery the chemical makeup of this particular vaccine changes just enough to make the salmonella deadly.

Please learn from my mistakes, I lost 3 top show babies from using this vaccine and weaning on raw diet.  I will no longer wean any kittens on raw meat until they hit 8 weeks or better, and I will not use the vaccine again on kittens. Killed only from now on at 8 and 12 weeks, my old protocol back in place firmly. I hope this helps someone, it is lengthy but I thought important. Last 3 kittens, 2 given to breeder friends as pay backs, and I kept one to show next season are all doing great.

Sincerely, bj
rowesnkit persians

Beverley,

Hope you get these cats to a vet fast.,..

Katavac Eclipse is on my blacklist - it caused a major URI problem in most of my cats at the end of 1997 when the vaccine was given to a litter of kittens.  The infection that developed was severe and life- threatening,  I nearly lost a burmese girl who was pregnant at the time - she had to have a caesarian to deliver a week early,  then I lost 4 out of the 7 kittens and of course had to hand rear them.  Miraculously she recovered but had not eaten voluntarily for 10 days (had to force- feed).  Strangely enough the 3 surviving kittens were incredibly healthy and never had a thing wrong with them! She still has chronic sinus problems which I am trying to sort out homeopathically but have not yet had major success - she goes to be spayed on Tuesday which will probably set her back again.

I had sworn never to vaccinate kittens with Eclipse again,  I thought it may be OK for adults,  but one I had vaccinated recently was ill for 2 days afterwards.  I will NEVER use it again on any cat.  I know of plenty of other breeders who have had similar problems with Eclipse. IMO it should be discontinued.

BTW zithromax is only effective against chlamydia, abd should not be used unless chlamydia is the diagnosis.  *All* antibiotics are useless against viruses and a viral infection is likely to be what you are dealing with.  I also thought Drontal wormer was not to be given to cats under 6 months old (perhaps we have a different formulation in the UK?)

I really do hope you get this problem sorted,  I can remember how helpless I felt when it happened to me.

Naomi
 

In message Beverly R<rowesnkit@> writes

<<Hi List: I think I may be losing a battle but maybe some of you can recognize what is going on with my kittie, 12 weeks old, I gave Eclipse 4 MLV shot to all adults and 2 litters of kittens one week and 3 days ago. One adult sat hunched up in his cage and wouldn't eat well for about 3 days but is ok now. One kitten in the last week has been real sick looking, yesterday temp was 101.2, eyes were half shut and glassy, not eating a little drinking. I have given a dose of Zithromax, and injected fluids, force fed a/d, tried to tempt with sardines, no go.>>

With the rabies and felv vaccinations (the only ones implicated in vaccination site sarcomas), researchers believe the sarcomas are linked to the aluminum salts carriers in the vaccines. Merial now makes a rabies vac. w/out the aluminum carrier.  On another list, a vet noted that vets are now seeing similar problems with injectable Program. I'm not sure if aluminum salts are used in that formula, but this vet noted that inflammation also plays a part in these injection site sarcomas.

Susan

<<Does anyone know why cats are vulnerable to tumor development at injection sites?>>

Hi Everyone,
Sandy has given me permission to post this. Marcia is a dear friend of mine and has used nosodes on her d*g for years ........I have used nosodes with my cats without any problems.

Good Luck
Sharon

Sharon, you may tell whomever you speak to about this particular e-mail and nosode use in general from me that we have been administering nosodes to our dog for years for lyme disease, heartworm; he has always tested negative without the use of "orthodox" vaccines.  Most recently, after he acquired a case of kennel cough (after having the standard bordatello routine)  we have been using a kennel cough nosode, which our kennel will accept with a note from the homeopathic veterinarian.  He has never suffered after ingesting a nosode, and we believe in them ALL THE WAY.  If it was legal in our state, we would use a rabies nosode!  Marcia and Scott

Leah wrote:
<<As for the rabies nosode being available, actually, I believe there is a rabies nosode "Hydrophobinum" - i.e. Lyssin . . .  The thought of using this prophylactically, though, quite frankly, seems a little frightening.  Think of the potential for  proving or aggravation >>

Perhaps I've been too trusting, now that you mention the risk, but my holistic vet has encouraged and supported my decision to use the lyssin nosode prophylactically in place of the rabies vaccine.  My 5-1/2 year old has had only nosodes -- no vaccs *ever* -- and no problems whatsoever; my 8-month-old has one set of vaccs (excluding rabies) before I adopted him but has had only nosodes after that.

My decision to do this was caused by the horrible and long-lasting after-effects of Megan (just about 17 years and now a cancer-kitty) having had what the vet and I believe to have been true vaccinosis. I surely didn't know as much as I've learned from this list when I started using nosodes and my ignorance may turn on me eventually but thus far I have no regrets, given what I've seen as the alternative.

susan
catgrrrl@

<<A question - do those of you who don't vaccinate do any regular tests, and if  so, which tests & how often?>>

My crf cat has not had a vaccination in about three years now, with the exception of rabies.  He does not get any exposure to other cats, we have a wood fenced in back yard (for the times when he wants to get some fresh air for a while) - so I'm not too concerned.   For people who show their cats, I don't imagine this is an option, although I do know some people who show their d**s that only keep current on rabies.  Titer testing done once a year should give you some idea how the vaccinations are holding up.

There are a couple labs that I think do a real good job with this; one of which is not terribly expensive.  Now if I can just find a vet that is willing to send the blood to the lab of *my* choice - some (not all) seem to feel threatened that a client actually has pursued some continuing education themselves on this topic.

Leah