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Info Dunia Islam
EXCLUSIVE: Tony Blair Interview
(Ma'af belum ada versi Indonesianya)
"Reach out and build greater understanding of what Islam is," urges
the Prime Minister in an exclusive interview
The White Room, visited by Presidents and Prime Ministers, was the
setting for the interview on February 15. In a wide ranging
interview, for over 40 minutes, covering social issues, politics and
foreign policy to the Editor, Ahmed Versi, and Deputy Editor, Sarah
Sheriff, the Prime Minister, Tony Blair, revealed he has two copies
of the Qur'an, rebuffs concern about the repeal of Section 28,
and
agreed Muslims should have a voice in foreign policy.
Ahmed Versi: Prince Charles recently said that we need to rediscover
our sense of the sacred. Do you share these thoughts? And what do you
think that we in Britain can do to rediscover the sacred?
Prime Minister: I think that all the religious communities have got a
role to play in that. I'm a politician and it's not my job to
preach
to people about spiritual values but I think they are important and I
think what Prince Charles was saying was right.
AV: You're a practising Christian and you read about other faiths
- I
seem to remember that you had read about Islamic history. Do you draw
any inspirations from faiths, like Islam?
PM: Yes, it's a constant theme of mine is that there is a lot of
misunderstanding about Islam. It is a deeply reflective, peaceful, a
very beautiful religious faith and I think it would be hugely helpful
if people from other religious faiths knew more about it. We had the
interfaith service, where we drew together a whole lot of different
faiths in Britain.1 I think it was a really good exercise and
something we should think of repeating at some stage, because I think
it was fascinating for people just to come and hear how similar the
values were that underpin the different faiths. If you read the
Qur'an - it's so clear, the notion of help for those who
are in
difficulty and the whole concept of love and fellowship as the
guiding spirits of humanity. I mean these are the things that will be
worthwhile for people to think of. Often what happens is that if
there are extreme groups, and the term `fundamentalist' gets
applied
to them, people end up thinking, well this is the Islamic religion
-
well it's no more the Islamic religion than the Spanish
Inquisition
was the Christian religion. Nor indeed that some people who in the
name of religion - the Christian religion - do terrible
things in
Northern Ireland are the true reflectors of Christian faith.
AV: We find it fascinating that as a practising Christian, you are
able to rise up in the Labour Party to become the leader of the
Party. It is normally believed that the Labour Party is a secular
party.
PM: Well there was a very famous Labour Party politician (Sir Wilson)
who said the Labour Party owed more to Methodism than to Marx, and
that's true. The early Labour Party founders were heavily
influenced
by Christian values. I think that in some senses I'm a bit of a
throwback in that way, because certainly the most influential people
in the Labour Party for its first 50 years of history were people who
were usually very heavily involved in the Christian Socialist
movement. So it's maybe not so surprising.
AV: Looking from outside, the Tory Party is seen more
`Christian'
rather than the Labour Party.
PM: I think that's all changed really. I mean, we are a secular
political party in the sense that whether I was a Christian or a non-
Christian, or whatever religious faith, makes no difference to their
position in the Labour Party. I think that certainly the concept of
values are very important in the Labour Party and I think that with
the Conservative Party and the Labour Party we have got people of
different religions and those of none in both parties. And that's
the
way it should be.
AV: Have your Christian values posed a problem with some decisions
that you may have had to make for the Government - would they have
contradicted with Christian values? Hhave you had any such
experiences?
PM: I think there are difficult decisions that come up, in particular
life and death type of decisions, where you feel a very great sense
of responsibility about it. But I hope that what I'm trying to do
is
consistent with my faith. But I always say to people, look, I'm a
politician, I'm not here to preach to anybody. I am a practising
Christian there's no point in denying that because it's true
- but
it's not something that should not make people vote for me or not
vote for me, really.
AV: You also believe in traditional family values, but Britain has
the highest number of teenage pregnancies in Europe. You'll know
of
the 12 year old mother, how do you intend to ensure that family
values are retained?
PM: I think the most important thing is that we support families, and
through that support, the institution of the family. This particular
problem with teenage pregnancies is why, when we came to office, we
set up a special unit that looks at issues like that. They are now
reflecting on the types of policies we can use - which include better
education, better opportunities for people, which should include
dealing with some of the issues like poverty because often what
we're
finding is that this is almost being passed from one generation to
another generation. If a child becomes a parent at the age of 12 then
there is something seriously wrong.
Now, I think that there are also economic policies that help: the
Working Families Tax Credit; improving the standards of living for
those who are most poor in our society; the Minimum Wage helps bring
a decent income to a household. We just announced today that we are
going to up-rate the minimum wage. I think that is immensely
important, it's important that we make work pay, it's
important we
reward work properly, it's important we say that this is a
measure
that is justified economically, but it's also justified in terms
of
plain simple fairness. So, I think there are those types of issues
that arise.
And then there are questions about how we support the family, through
offering better advice to parents, through making sure there's
proper
education in the schools. One of the reasons, when we looked into
teenage mothers, why they are like that is a lot of them have no
educational aspirations at all and a lot of them have come from
families where they've not been taught to have any ambition or
any
hope. This is their way of having a life - to have a child -
now we
have got to be altering that type of attitude and giving them the
aspiration and the ambition to do well.
AV: Also don't you think that in schools when they talk about sex
education and so on, do not encourage family values. It is because of
this that you have this problem of teenage pregnancies.
PM: Well I think it is a number of things. In the schools we're
now
introducing guidance and the teaching of these types of values into
mainstream schooling and I think that's very important as well.
David
Blunkett is just preparing more guidance on how we try and teach kids
about the importance of proper family life and so on and that is very
important. But, my experience of these things is that very often, the
people that you really want to reach are the people less likely to
listen to those messages. Therefore what is important, of course, is
also to change the context in which they're growing up and in
which
they're being educated more generally.
Sarah: How does the repeal of Clause 28 fit in with traditional
family values, because I know within the Muslim community and other
faith communities this has been seen as a threat to traditional
family values. How would you explain that?
PM: There has been an extraordinary media campaign on this and that
is the first thing to say. The reality is that schools and school
governors had, since 1994, the responsibility to set their own sex
education frameworks within schools and they will carry on doing
that. This is simply to ensure that people are not discriminated
against and that's all it is. It's just a measure of non-
discrimination. There are some people who are going to be gay then,
that's life. And I don't personally believe in discriminating
against
them. But the idea that children are going to be forced to have gay
Sex Education lessons or any of the rest of it is just nonsense and
has been nonsense all the way through. I understand the concern that
has been expressed by faiths but a lot of that concern is based on
some misunderstandings through reading the newspapers of what's
actually being proposed here.
Sarah: On foreign policy. The Muslim community was very pleased with
the Government's stance on Kosova and the whole idea of Ethical
Foreign Policy. But we don't seem to see consistency across
issues,
for example Chechnya is one issue that has been troubling the Muslim
community particularly, then there has been South Lebanon, Palestine,
Kashmir. Do you acknowledge that there are certain anomalies, and how
can they be addressed? Could the Muslim community have a voice at
foreign policy level?
PM: It is very important that the Muslim community has a voice, that
we take account their concerns and you're quite right in saying,
well
that there are anomalies in how we deal with these situations. There
are inevitably choices that you have to make about what is
practically possible. We have been very strong in our condemnation of
the excesses of the Russian campaign and it is not possible to do
what we did in Kosovo. I think the fact that it isn't possible to
do
it in Chechnya should not mean that we do not do it in Kosovo. That
was the situation where we had both the will and the means to do it.
And if you look, for example, at different situations around the
world, I mean in the Middle East peace process, Britain is now
playing a part. Indeed, I have had very long detailed discussions
with the Palestinians and also with the Israelis as to how we can
make progress there. We played a part too in trying to help the whole
process with Syria get under way. So I think there are things that we
can do, and I guess what I'm really saying is that because we
cannot
be perfect it should not mean that we don't act when we can make
it
better.
AV: What has happened in Chechnya, the massacres and so on have been
terrible, with total destruction of the land.
PM: Well, what we've done, I mean the European Union, which
includes
us obviously, we have taken economic measures as well as other
measures. There is a whole series of programmes that have been
suspended and we are putting whatever pressure we can and it is
difficult because there is a limit to the amount of pressure that can
be put on that is of any value. But what we can do, we are.
SS: Is the Government helping at all on the humanitarian front?
PM: Yes, we certainly are and I can get you the details of that, but
we are putting a significant amount of humanitarian effort into this.
SS: Now to domestic politics - The Muslim community generally
feels
very marginalised by domestic politics and although there are calls
for more participation by ethnic minorities, the Labour Party itself,
it seems, has not set a good example by not electing, or selecting
Muslims to stand in winnable seats - In the Scottish elections, the
European elections and it looks like the London elections for the
Assembly. I don't think there is a Muslim in a winnable place on
the
Top Up List. How can you explain that? Would you be willing to set
targets for Muslims to be elected?
PM: I don't think that we're going to set targets, but we are
actively looking at how we encourage more Muslim participation. I
have been the first Prime Minister to appoint Muslims to the House of
Lords. We've now four that are there. Now that's something I
can do
directly. I will be very surprised if you didn't see some Muslim
candidates standing in winnable seats in the next election. I'm
very
anxious to encourage the Muslim community to come and participate in
the Labour Party. I think it's important that it does so. And,
just
to return to a theme that we were talking about a moment or two ago,
I think the more people get to understand about the Muslim community,
and the more there is an interaction recognising our diversity and
difference but recognising also that there are many common values, I
think the better it will be for everyone. In a way I think I would
like to encourage the Muslim community to come out and to participate
more and to tell people and explain to people about Islam, about what
it means, about the beliefs that people have and the points they have
in common.
AV: You see this is the problem. We want to participate, but by not
selecting us - like in the London Assembly which is going to take
place soon where we don't have anybody on the First Past the Post
list. In the Top Up List, the Labour Party has someone only at number
seven, so it will be very difficult for him to get elected. But the
other Parties, like the Tory Party, have got a Muslim in First Past
the Post and they have someone at number three on the Top Up List.
This is what I am trying to say. We need people in the other
elections as well - not only in general elections. You need to be
more open to the Muslim community as well.
PM: That's entirely right. I mean the trouble is obviously with a
particular individual seat, I mean it depends who's coming
forward
for it. But I think that my impression is that the Muslim community
is far more active politically now, certainly with us. And the
existence of, as I say these people, within the House of Lords -
I
mean the four that we've got there who are active as well and are
increasingly well known. We had a reception at number 12 Downing
Street just the other week for the Muslim community and I think that
it is beginning to happen. As I say, I've got no doubt at all
that
the Labour Party will carry on encouraging and of course there are
many Muslim councillors up and down the country.
AV: On the same theme of exclusion, Muslims still feel excluded in
society, for example, they face discrimination and the majority of
Muslims who are from ethnic minorities face double discrimination,
because of their colour and religion, especially the women, because
they are visible by wearing the headscarf. And they have problems in
employment and also in schools. And in schools it is worse because
there are young girls. The young girls themselves want to wear
headscarves. We have published many examples of many schools where
they are forced to remove their headscarves and many of them are ten-
year-olds. They feel excluded, they feel that their religion is not
respected by the Government and this happens in state schools rather
than in private schools. How are you going to address these problems?
PM: These decisions are for the school ultimately and, of course,
there are schools that take a different view. We have commissioned a
study that is going to report on all aspects of this and we're
also
of course tightening up the Race Relations legislation now and
introducing and making it cover the public sector for the first time.
So there are changes that are coming there.
AV: The Race Relations Acts, I agree - but that does not affect
these
kinds of the discrimination cases.
PM: No, that's true, but I think that there is a real willingness
in
Government to look at these issues but we are wary of entering into a
dispute with individual schools.
AV: Well, I know you've commissioned a research but that will
take
time because it will not reach this Parliament and maybe the next
Parliament, so in the meantime, is it not possible to do something.
Perhaps you can intervene in schools and set guidelines to respect
religious dress codes, at least in the interim period, because
otherwise this problem will continue.
PM: Well, I understand the point you are putting to me. As I say we
don't have plans to change this position at the moment, but I
think
that it's best that it's looked at in the overall context.
AV: Certain sectors of the Muslim community are very poor, the
highest number of unemployment exists in the Pakistani and
Bangladeshi communities. They also have a lack of opportunities and
on top of that are demonised by the media, so they feel particularly
excluded. So how do you intend to address this issue, especially of
unemployment and so on?
PM: Well, in the inner cities, we're putting in a programme
called
the New Deal for Communities - which is putting a very large cash
injection into places like Tower Hamlets. This is going to be an
£800
million investment in the next few years, and that's going to
deal
with Housing, Education, Law and Order problems and so on. Also the
New Deal for young people, obviously tackling some of these
employment problems. The previous Government were due to abolish the
Section 11 money for teaching in ethnic minority childrens'
schools
while we reversed that decision and that teaching is still taking
place there. I think that there is a certain amount that is happening
there but it will take time - there is no escaping that. But it
is a
priority for this Government to tackle poverty, deprivation, and
social exclusion wherever it is. And that part of the Muslim
community that is living particularly in that most deprived inner
city areas will benefit from it.
AV: We find that an increasing number of Muslim youngsters are
committing crimes, taking drugs and a disproportionately high number
are in prisons, so this problem also needs to be addressed.
PM: It is, and the most important thing is to give people a decent
education, decent housing and the prospect of a job and that's
what
we're trying to do.
AV: You mentioned about education and you do emphasise it a lot. But
we find that there are declining standards in schools. There is a
mushrooming of Muslim schools now. Only a few years ago there were
only 20 and now there are about 65 because parents feel that
they're
not getting the right kind of education in state schools. These
private schools do not have enoug resources because only two Muslim
schools are funded. Some of these schools are just above mosques.
Still in GCSEs they do better than state schools in the area in inner
cities. So you can see that there is something lacking in the
mainstream schools. How can you address these problems?
PM: Well obviously, again, we introduced state funded Muslim schools
-
I know there are just two of them at the moment but that is a change
for the better. But in relation to other schools, the problem is
inner city schools. Some of them are good in fact. But there are too
many that are performing below par, which is why we've launched
the "Excellence for Cities" programme which is going to go
into all
the main inner city conurbations - I think that's 6 actually
- and
that will try to drive up standards. And if you look at the primary
school results now for England and Wales - the primary school
results
have never been better. Secondary schools I think are more difficult
but the encouragement of specialist schools and beacon schools will
make quite a difference. In fact I was at a school in London not so
long ago where there were a whole mixed category of children and
there is no doubt at all that when that programme had gone in, it
started to raise standards.
AV: Instead of funding Muslim schools to make them into state
schools, would it be possible to help them to buy computers and other
basic things to help them to so that they can still be independent
yet continue to provide a service to the community and do better than
they are doing now. We feel the pupils are suffering because parents
are saying they should go to Muslim schools, but they don't
always
have the resources, so they suffer from lack of some kind of
education in some areas such as science. Do you not think that you
can at least give some kind of support?
PM: We wouldn't give support to the independent sector because we
need the money for the state sector. What we are doing is putting a
great deal of money into computers in the state schools and most of
the schools will be wired up now to the Internet. Our aim is to
really drive this computer revolution right throughout the school
system, but I think you will find that the situation is getting
better and even in the inner city schools. The results are up from
last year. The specialist schools are schools which specialise in
particular subjects; by 2003 a quarter of all secondary comprehensive
schools are going to be specialist schools, their results have gone
up by something like 12% so there is a very, very big increase in the
results. I think you'll find in time that we can get there and
that
we can improve the school system. The performance related pay for
teachers were very important as well so that teachers get a special
bonus, but tied to their standards of performance.
SS: Is there scope for Muslim schools to be designated specialist
schools and to come within that banner?
PM: There is no reason why. Church schools, Roman Catholic and Church
of England schools, are designated specialist schools. There's
no
reason why, if there was a Muslim school that was a state school it
couldn't be designated a specialist school.
SS: In conclusion, as we enter the third millennium, what is your
vision for Britain as a multi faith, multi cultural community, do you
envisage it being possible for Islamic people to be considered
Islamic as well as British as in Scotland, where people are seen as
Scottish and British and there is no problem with that and they can
celebrate it.
PM: I do. I believe that very deeply that what holds us together are
values and shared aspirations, common challenges and that you can be
Scottish and British. Or Cornish and British Or Muslim and British.
Yeah, absolutely! My vision for Britain is of a country that is open
and outward and fair. Whose economy is based on creativity; whose
society is based on responsibility and whose place in the world is
defined by our values and the alliances that we build around them, I
think that Britain has a marvellous and wonderful history. But it is
important that we use the strength of our history to shape our future
and recognise that our future is to be a dynamic and creative and
open nation.
SS: What role would you like to see British Muslims playing which
perhaps they are not playing at the moment?
PM: Well I think that they could play a role in two ways. One to
realise that if we do have a society that is based on responsibility
and an economy based on creativity, for the Muslim community, these
are values they totally understand and share. So they have got a real
opportunity to play a part in the Britain of the future. And the
second thing is what I said before, that I think to reach out and
build greater understanding about what Islam is and means and the
values that underpin it. I think that would be both of interest to
people and of help to build decent community relations. I think we
can be proud in many ways at the changes that have taken place in
this country. Okay, I accept that we've got a significant
distance to
go in terms of race relations and community relations. But, when I
was growing up - 15, 16 - we were, at the time when there was
still a
lot of overt hostility and racism and it was not always considered
not respectable. Today, it isn't considered respectable in any
mainstream political party and it is part of the accepted value
system of Britain that we are multicultural and we are multiracial
and that that is a strength, not a weakness. So, I think we've
come
some way even though we've got some way to go.
AV: We acknowledge there have been changes especially since New
Labour has come into power. For example this interview would not have
taken place in the past with the Tory leadership. You have also
influenced, I have found, the Opposition. Now they are coming to
terms with the Muslim community, and its concerns, which in the past
they were not. We believe it is a start, but there is, as you said, a
long way to go and I think you need to concentrate more on the
religious aspects because in the media racism is not politically
correct but still Islamophobia continues.
PM: The greatest thing is understanding, building understanding. And
it's a difficult thing to do. I mean, I was brought up in County
Durham up in the North East of England and I was really quite old
before I met a black person. I just never met one and if you'd
asked
me about Islam I would have looked at you completely blankly.
Obviously when I moved down to London later in life, you mix and you
meet people but it is so important for people to have that experience
where they're mixing and understanding where these things always
arise from fear of what people don't know. That's what you
have to
do, you have to get over it, and explain to people that these are our
traditions, this is what we do. And what is important with the
Christian community is that then they start to reflect that they have
certain traditions and things that they do. When I go to church on a
Sunday the priest is dressed in a particular way, then there is a
particular ceremony that goes on and we take it for granted. We just
think well, this is the way it happens but for someone from the
outside these things need explaining. So I think that's the
dialogue
and I think you're right. I think that dialogue across the faiths
is
very important and that's why I was so pleased, I was
particularly
pleased that not just the Muslim community but the Archbishop of
Canterbury came along to do this interfaith service.1 I was just
thinking that even 50 or 60 years before that would have been an
unthinkable thing to have done, and possibly even 30 years ago would
have been an event that was a highly controversial. Well it
wasn't,
it was accepted as the right thing to do. I think there is an awful
lot in what you say because I do read a lot about Islam now and
I'm
now the proud possessor of two different translations of the
Qur'an.
I read, and am interested in it but I think that a lot more people
would be interested in knowing about it, you would be surprised at
how interested people would be.
1- The Prime Minister was referring to a Shared Faith Communities
Event held to celebrate the Millennium on January 3.
The Muslim News - Friday 31 March 2000 - 24 Dhu al-Hijjah 1420
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