Hello Lion Dancers. I just joined the list. From what I been reading in the archives, you guys are having some difficulties with Mua/ La^n. Here's the details. Mua Lan is just the Southern Chinese Lion Dance. Su Tu is the northern Lion. The reason you see mua lan from vietnamese groups that are different is because of that they are self taught(which was stated before). They no nothing of the tradition or styles and techniques. They just do whatever. However, there is a vietnamese style of lion dancing from vietnam, but they are mainly ethnic chinese groups. Their drumming style and lion dancing tecniques are dramaticly different and unique. The drumming style utilizes a steel gong instead of a copper gong. This provides a higher pitch sound and louder sound(it can give you a big headache, more than common lion dance music). The Drum and Gong follow each other. The gong person has to be in sync with the drum person in terms of what both they are going to do. sometimes the gong leads the drum for small moments and drum for others. The cymbals have a more constant beat rather than following the drum beat. You would have to see it to know what I'm talking about. The lion dancing itself is not as unique as the drum beat. The usual lion dance for streets are fierce animal like movements. This movement for "street" or parade performing is usually the head facing up and down in regular beat. and raising of the head in a fast beat. when they do that, All of the lions do it in sync. So like when you hear the fast rolling beat sound, you would see all the lion heads raised up being from side to side. and when the music stop everyone drops. Also the bowing is different. Usual teams would have like steps in moving forward and backward with the head up going forward down moving backwards. For the this vietnamese style, they stand in a cat stance, with the head making circular motion one way upward from the bottom, and then when the head hits the half circle mark,the head comes down, then the head goes the other way. All these you really have to see. Because hearing about doesn't provide any idea for anyone on what it is. if your from san francisco, try to recall a couple years ago of the group Joi Ying in the sf chinese new year parade from san jose. they perform that style, and also try recall a year earlier the group NNND martial arts from san jose, but the group went by a different name in the parade. it was the lion dance group before chung ngai dance troupe in 1997. Joi ying was after the wells fargo float in 1998. hope this help you people. Amazing that i'm just only a teenager yet I know a lot about lion dances and styles, in terms of countries.

Albert Le

> > As you well know, there is a northern version of the dance which is very
> > different in intent and performance.
>
> How many guys out there are doing the Northern (chinese) lion dance? We do,
> but I haven't seen any other groups around Seattle / Vancouver doing it.
> Usually, during the performance, the southerns go to 'sleep' and then they
> bring out the northern lions.

My troupe in Houston performs this, but we are the only ones to my knowledge. The northern lions are unfortunately dying out...where did you guys learn how to do it? I believe we learned it from some guy in the Beijing opera (and David Lei perhaps?), complete with the northern style of drumming. I find that style of drumming very dramatic and fit for the stage - it reminds me so much of traditional Chinese folk songs. Can anyone else shed some light on the northern lion's nuances?

Willy

Our sifu, John Leong taught us how. I like the diffrent style of drumming too... but it's hard on the drummer, since it's much faster than typical southern beats.

Last night, my sifu hosted the Little Fighting Monks from Henan Shaolin temple. One of the opening acts was a lion dance team from Vancouver, BC, Canada, under sifu Wong Duc Gay (sp?). I think they trained with one of the Singapore teams. They did a great job, and the audience (sold-out 700+ people) went crazy about it. It's diffrent watching a video and seeing it in person!

Geoff

Can anyone tell me how are the Hac Son lions are like? How well built are they?do they come in metalic colors like gold and silver? Are they made with rabbit fur? It be very helpful if someone answer and Thank You if you do.

Albert Le

Hey Albert,

Hoc san lions are the Singapore style lion heads... "Ap juy see" or the duck bill lion. They're the lions that look like they have a milk mustache. The quality of them are pretty good. We use the "Rattan constructed" hoc san lions. What that is, is, there's a thin layer of fabric that lines the bamboo frame of the lion. The lazer paper or sequence fabric is layed on top of that. this thin layer of frabric is pertty stong, we havn't have any problems with it ripping or falling apart. The majority of the head is made from rabit fur, except for the mustache... it's pretty furry and thick, so I guess it's synthetic. hope this helps.

Jason

the hohk sahn lion heads generally have more of a protruding mouth that makes it look like a duck bill and are smaller and narrower in width. they are lighter in weight as well.

sorry for changing the subject.....but hey i just saw yau kung moon in san francisco that had exact copies of master siow's lion heads which were made in china. the sifu told me that someone brought one of his lion heads to china and had it copied. it's supposedly cheaper in price because of the labor costs in china. i didn't find out where one can purchase this lion head at. anyone know?

dr. doong chang

> sorry for changing the subject.....but hey i just saw yau kung moon in san
> francisco that had exact copies of master siow's lion heads which were made
> in china. the sifu told me that someone brought one of his lion heads to
> china and had it copied. it's supposedly cheaper in price because of the
> labor costs in china. i didn't find out where one can purchase this lion
> head at. anyone know?

Wow, really? To me this sounds sort of wrong...copying Master Siow's heads (without his permission, right?). But I guess it was bound to happen. In a way, I am glad that the Chinese manufacturers are starting to wise up to changing tastes and preferences. Personally, I would still do business with Master Siow, though, because he's such a great guy and after everything he's done for lion dancing around the world.

As far as the fur used, I think someone told me that Master Siow uses sheep's hair for the beard, eyes, and tail. It is wavier and much thicker than rabbit's fur, and the best thing is it doesn't shed. My troupe, Chung Ngai, uses only the Fat Shan heads, but I would guess that the hair used is the same between both Hok Shan and Fat Shan heads (from Master Siow's factory).

Sorry to change the subject again but is Peter Lee (from Australia) still on this list? I'd like to get into contact with you.

Willy

Thanks to Jason and Dr. Chang for their responses. My experiences are a little different but I'm not saying they are wrong.

As far as I know, the Hok San lion is from Hok San China just like the Fat San lion is from Fat San. It's safe to say that the Hok San lion did not come from Singapore or Malaysia. Master Siow made the lion famous in that region but he did not invent it.

As stated, the Hok San lion has the duck bill and is narrower. Consequently, the style emphasizes more swaying and fine movements. The Fat San lion has more large and aggressive movements. Master Siow demonstrated this at the conference.

On being lighter, I think that is a result of Master Siow. He significantly lightened the original Hok San lion and re-enforced it so his teams could use them on the poles better. He now makes a Fat San version of his lightened/re-enforced head.

I've not seen a China copy yet but it isn't a good copy unless it has aluminum bars for the mouth and forehead. Also, as Jason pointed out, the lazer paper makes it much lighter then the traditional paper-mache. I heard that Clarion had these copies from China. I think someone on this list said it wasn't as well made.

Just to add to the discussion.....Hok Sahn is a county further away from the city of Guangzhou than Fut Sahn and is more rural compared to Guangzhou. Does anyone know why they developed their own distinct style of lions and lion dancing?

The movements of Hok Sahn Style lion dancing is more subtle and less strenuous. One can last longer doing the Hok Sahn style of lion dancing compared to the Fut Sahn style. The Hok Sahn head is lighter as well.

Which is probably why the Hok Sahn Style is favored for jumping and climbing on those apparatuses.

Dr. Doung Chang

I'm not too sure about why they developed their own style of lion dance, but I do know a little bit of background on the construction of the lion head it slef. From what I've been told, the reason why the lion heads are narrower and longer is because it benefits the lioin dancer. because it's narrower, the lion dancers arms are closer to his body, which in turn doesn't tire out his arms.

jason

Those lions i think are the Fat Shan Loins. but a different kind of fat shan. Im not totally sure.

Albert Le

Thank you everyone for your answers, but I think you guys left one thing out. I also asked if anyone knew if Hoc Son Builds them in metallic colors of gold,silver or red?

Albert Le

Hi Albert,

The lazer paper that Jason spoke about is either metalic silver or gold. this is the base for the lions made by Master Siow. They are painted on top of that. Both Fat San and Hok san style heads are made this way.

The original Hoc San heads come in the similar materials and colors as the Fat San ones. I saw some real old ones in a Malaysian White Crane school when I was there.

Stephen.

Sorry I guess i didn't make it clear. But I was refering to the tails. Not the head. Sorry for any mixup. =)

Albert Le

Hey Albert,

Thanx for the info and welcome abroad! =) I was curious about that unit from the SF parade Joi Ying...we they using what is considered the 7 star drumming? It's not the 7 star drumming as what is currently used as competition standard, but another form of the 7 star? Also I think I've seen them throughout Oakland one year but I'm not too sure. Their lions uses a different type of fur, isn't that right? I'd like to know the kind of heads that the group was using the night of the parade because I haven't seen them before...(if you're talking about the group at that particular parade) Thanx for your info...

-Jj

I see. Master Siow's tails are made with a shiny material either silver or gold to match the head. Then there is the fur which is colored to match the dominant color of the head. (blue, red, black, silver, etc) His tails are shorter then the traditional tails and come with matching pants.

The original Hok San and Fat San tails are longer and made of silk. I think today, you can get both sizes and any color from China. I have never seen a China made Hok San style lions but I have seen the Fat san versions. I've seen some very strange (to me) colors and materials.

Stephen.

Hey Albert,

I believe that nowadays you could get almost anything ordered accessories wise for the lion. I've seen a China made malaysian style lions(not siow) with the metallic silver and gold type of sequinced material, and when asked where the lions were made, it was special ordered from one of the FaSan factories. So I know that it is possible, or at least it is possible. As for the procedure for ordering them specifically, I have no idea...

One more thing, if at all possible, anyone interested in purchasing lions with that sort of characteristic(metallic finish) if at all possible to get it from Siow or any other reputable Malaysian maker. China made heads have a few steps to go before catching up with them.

-Jarrett

Hi,

I've seen lazer papers head in many different colours... not only silver and gold. I've seen red, green, purple.

jason

We have blue, gold, and silver heads, and laser paper on all of them. I guess the laser paper comes in all colors. Both HS and FS heads also have the aluminum rim and pvc pipes, as well as the cotton gauze layering. As far as the tails, I believe you can get them sequined (metallic looking) or in plain satin (somewhat metallic but less flashy, with still a bit of sheen). Master Siow also uses sheep's hair for the tail and the beard/eyes on the head. I prefer extra long hair on the tail, personally. Pants match the tail, having the metallic sequins or the less lustrous satin only. I guess you can specify exactly what you want. There are no rules as to 'which heads have what'.

Willy

Hey JJ. I am not sure what their drumming style is called but I know how it goes. I already mastered it. They have a lot of small variations. Yes they do have totally different kinds of lions. Probably from Vietnam(but seems to well done) so it might be from Very Southern China. I have no idea where they get their lions but i do know where to get the simliar lions. The strange thing about this style of lion dancing is that its a Vietnamese Style(Yes vietnam, joi ying's teachings came from vietnam) but the only teams in san jose that perform them are the Chinese Teams. Very Odd. I have a few friends that use to be in Joi Ying. They didn't like it because their Martial Arts was "weak" in terms of how it was taught. Joi Ying is seperated into branches. I'm not sure where to find them but if you want, I can ask my friend where the group is located in San Jose and i can give you a contact on where they get their lions.

I'm including a picture of the kinds of the lions they used but this isnt them. I think its one of their rival groups(in terms of style). This lion belongs to NND martial Arts. If you want to experience on how it's like, this group performs at the Chinese Summer Festival in San Jose. I don't when it is yet. But if you're interested in going I send the date when I can. If the picture dont show up as an attachment. go here: http://www.oocities.org/cane20/nnnd.jpg

Albert Le

Thanx for the info again Albert, Got a question for the group who got access the the pic Albert included: Does this head look like a merging of the HS and FS head?

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 12:05:20 -0600
From: Deanna Hum
Subject: (San Francisco) Chung Ngai Dance Troupe

To, those that contribute their time and hard working in maintaining the Chinese lion Dance performing art.

I would like to inform you that the Chung Ngai Dance troupe (a non-profit organization) located in San Francisco will "put up a web site on March 17, 2000." As their webmaster I would appreciate your help if you could link our site on your homepage.

The url; http://www.onlinecreator.com/Chungngaitroupe/

A preview of the site is avaliable on March 10,2000. I invite you to visit the site, and determine if the content of the site is appropiate for you link. I appreciate your help, and will glad acceptany feedback on the site's content.

If there is any question regarding the site, or perhaps any recommendation pls them to:

winston@onlinecreator.com

The Foshan (Fat Shan) factory produces lions with the lazer paper in both the Hok Shan and Fat Shan shape. They also have the shiny sequened pants and tails like Master Siows. I have one red(fat shan), one gold(hok shan), and one silver(fat shan) head with the lazer paper. The tails are not the sequened material but the eye lids are. The tails can be order in both long and short lengths. They also have tails with the longer white fur. The fur on the mouth, eyes and ears can be specified to be sheep fur. I'll attach some pictures of our heads next time I get the camera.

The lions can be custom built to match any photograph or illustration you send them. They tell us they can copy almost 90 percent of the features if you send them a photograph. Sure it may be unethical, but there wouldn't be so many different factories out there if nobody copied the original. Anyway, as most of you know, the durability of the Foshan manufactured lion is still inferior to the Malaysian (Master Siow's). However, it is much cheaper. Their price for a #1 or #2 will be around $300 for the head and tail. They will even crate and ship for you which will eliminate the headaches of you trying to get the materials out of China. Our lions costed us around $550 a piece arriving at the docks in Honolulu. Next time you pick up a Kung Fu magazine, look for the Joni Uniform advertisement. Most of their heads are Foshan heads. Some are Hong Kong heads. See if you can tell the difference.

Sherman

JJ wrote:
> Thanx for the info again Albert,
> Got a question for the group who got access the the pic Albert included:
> Does this head look like a merging of the HS and FS head?

Which came first the chicken or the egg. This looks like the original style Hok San head. Anyone know for sure?

Stephen

just remember the lion used in lion dance is a mythical animal. from the imaginations of people. every region in china and throughout asia seem to have their own distinct characteristic of what a lion is.

if people change it a little a make is look a little like this style or that style, then it's their creativity. their "work of art".

dr. d. chang

Hi guys,

I noticed everyone talking about the different lion heads, and maybe I can share some info from my experiences.

A few years ago I tried importing lion dance and kung fu equipment with one of my friends from HK. From our info, the best quality lions we could get were in HK, Singapore, and Malaysia, but those were also the most expensive. There were tons of factories all over Guangdong Province that made all types of lions, HK, Malaysian, a few northern lions, kei lun, Fat Shan, Hok Shan, and another type of lion also named after a mountain, but I can't remember the name. All the stuff from China was much cheaper, but also cheaper quality. When talking to the different factories, the majority said they can make lions in any style, size, shape and color, as long as you pay for it.

When dealing with these factories, I was under the impression that these were big, professional organizations. Most were actually one or two families that made lions out of their own homes, and had been doing it for a few generations. Another drawback to importing from mainland China is that the government can and will screw you over (all sorts of hidden taxes, duties, etc...)

I'm a white guy living in Canada, and most of the Chinese community over here is from HK. When we did our market research, 90% of the LD teams used Fatshan lions, (usually Lau Bei or Gold lions). Most of our potential customers said they didnt want kei lun, northern lion, or Hok Shan lions.

In your parts of the world, are Hok Shan lions popular?

Thanks,

Paul Skrypichayko

i havent really seen a place where hoc san in popular.

albert le

Hi Paul,

When I first joined my team about 10 years ago(wow I'm getting old) I joined them because of their unique lion heads that they were using at the time. They were affectionately nicknamed the "duckheads" around SF. But by the time I joined them, they switched to the FatSan style lion heads. At the time I did not know that the "duckheads" were HoSan and the commonly seen lions were FatSan, I just saw what I saw. Anyways, I always liked the apparence of the HoSan lions because it appeared to have been easier to handle by the head person. I wouldn't call the hoksan lions popular around here, but they have been seen in the SF area for at least 20 years.

-Jarrett

Can I stop getting these lion dance e-mails??

i would like to be off ur mailing list also!!! thanks