Just today I have received several emails to my personal email address (in addition to the ones sent to the list in general) asking to be removed from the liondance email list. Whenever I come across somebody who may be interested in the list I invite them to join themselves, but I have never subscribed anybody without their permission. There is also a confirmation step put in place by the list administrator to guard against this. If you have somehow been subscribed to the list without your permission I apologize and ask that you take the following step:

send a message to majordomo@freud.et.tudelft.nl with the following message in the body:

unsubscribe liondance you@email.org

Of course you need to replace "you@email.org" with the email address that is subscribed (you would not believe how many people didn't do this when trying to subscribe or unsubscribe back when I used to administrate the list!)

Thank you for your brief stay on the list and should you ever require Lion Dancing discussions again in the future we hope you'll choose us...

Chris

Note to other list members: I'm not accusing anybody or anything, maybe there was just a fluke in the system and a bunch of people got subscribed without knowing, but just a reminder that to some people their email accounts are very personal things and shouldn't be tampered with by anybody else. Please practice good netiquitte.

>Can I stop getting these lion dance e-mails??

NO!

once you're in, you never get out. (it's a lot like the mafia, hahaha)

Actually, I think you need to send a msg to the list server saying "unsubscribe".

humorously,

Paul Skrypichayko,

Hi folks,

I think this may have to do with the way the list was initiated. Rob asked us (the guys on freud) whether he could host his mailinglist here.. because the old server he was using or whatever was being cancelled.

So.. we added the addresses of the old list to start this one (this was also mentioned in the earliest welcoming emails) since it was to be expected these people would prefer to stay _on_ the list.

If you don't wanna be on the list, fine then not ;-) If nothing works, you can always email me or root@freud.et.tudelft.nl and we'll remove you manually ASAP.

Regards,

Serhat Sakarya

Hey guys,

Albert, maybe you can shed some more light on this topic. I just saw the movie clip on Chris' website about the Tet festival in San Jose 2000. I also heard plenty of that Chinese/VN drumming with the steel gong. Is it supposed to be played without cymbals? There is a group in Houston who plays this style and I never hear them play with cymbals either. I am still wondering how this style developed and where. What is the tradition behind the rhythms? And why the steel gong?

Willy

Dear Liondancers of the World!

Today I am unsuscribing the mail list, but first I want to say thanks to you all!! Some of you have been very kind in helping us, L'HOME DIBUIXAT, the theater troupe from Spain in search of a northern lion. Now, we are using a lovely one in our new show, "Around the World in 80 Masks". We only use our lion at the end of our play, because it's not a liondance show but a real theatrical work with masks, puppets, objects and actors. Our lion is the big and happy end to the show. Of course, we don't 'dance' it, we only do one a walking between the audience and a final photo-ending at the stage. It's more a simulation than a real dance... We also tell a story about the meaning of the Liondance using 'Chinese shadows' (I don't know the name of that technique in English...).

I am unsuscribing the list because we are not liondancers, we are only actors. It's been so interesting to meet you all through the list. Now my dream is to see a nice liondancing in live, cause all that I've learnt was through videos or photos, and of course through your e-mailings!!!

I would like to put a link to the list in our website, please tell me how!!! It will be such a way of gratitude.

You have a friend in Spain. Please be free to contact with us if you need something anytime.

Best wishes,

Jose Maria Martinez

Jose,

I'm glad we met through this list and that we were able to help you out with your play! Thanks for listing the liondance email list in the credits, it was very gracious of you. I'll be adding a link to your theater's website on the Lion's Cave--Events site. It looks like you have quite a few shows between now and May.

Unless anybody has another site already set up, the link for the liondance email list would be: http://www.oocities.org/lionscave1/Archives.html Not all of the archives have been prepared yet, but it should be done soon.

Best wishes,

Chris

Well Willy, yes it can be played without cymbals, but what's a lion dance without cymbals? There's a certain constant rythym for the cymbals for this drumming style. The reason why that group doesnt play cymbals is probably because they don't got enough skiilled people to have both gongs and cymbals so they do the gong mainly because the style isn't complete without it I am still wondering how it developed but i know it developed somewhere in South East Asia. I personally don;t know the tradition behind the beats.

Why The steel gong? i think its because the people that made it wanted the gong a play a bigger part of their style. I think they wanted to have the gong and drum depend on each other. I dont know why though. It's kind of hard to find info on this style because its so rare.

I'll have to research some of the groups. From what I know, one of the bigger san jose groups that use the steel gong has a history of 50years from vietnam and their teachings have only been in the san jose since 94 and this group seems like a group with tradition..As you can see, the new the style is still relatively new.

Albert Le

I also forgot to say something. Although there's a whole different style of drumming that goes with the steel gong, it can still be played with other drumming styles. In a way, to me, I personally tried the common drum styles(like hac son) with the steel gong, and in many it improves how the drumming style sounds. Because not that the gong can create a big headache hearing over n over n over because of its' high pitched sound.

ALbert Le

Hey Albert,

Thanks for the info. I don't know why this interests me so much but I just like knowing everything that's out there in the lion dance world. I bet Dr. William Hu could dig up a lot of stuff on this style if he weren't so busy. Personally I don't really like the sound of the steel gong. The piercing noise hurts my ears. I also prefer low-pitched drums. In fact I like all the instruments to be lower pitched - it sounds more coherent and soothing to me, and easier to 'match' all together. Any preferences for you guys out there? Should some instruments be lower pitched while the others high pitched? Do they sound good together?

Willy

I hope Dr. Hu would do some research on this style. It would be interesting to know aobut it. For me the steel gong is good only on some occaisions. For a little performance or something, i prefer the copper gong. Like you said, its sounds more soothing. But for a parade i rather have the steel gong because it projects through the streets. One of the san jose teams use both gongs. They use one during one moment on their gong holder of the drum cart and the other gong on the drum's holding structure. They use both because they also do the northern lion dance and dragon dance and only copper gongs can be used for those dances. (O yea, all the teams with the steel gongs have the same drum carts. i think they get it from the same place. and let me tell you, They are so convient and well made. It's not much of pain to take around.

Albert Le

Hi Guys,

Just want to share some info on the Hoc Shan style..

Hoc Shan Style was created by a man called Hung Gen Zhang (in Mandarin) after he learn lion dance from Fat Shan about hunderd-odds year ago(relatively recent). When people from Hoc Shan migrated to the 'southern ocean' they bought their style with them. Many settled in Singapore where they form a Hoc Shan association. There is a 80 years old China made Hoc Shan lion still there! From the pictures it is larger and has a more slanted back-of-the-head than the Hoc Shan Lion nowadays. This style of lion became quite popular and is quite dominant in Singapore, causing it to be known as 'Singapore Style'.

The story behind the shorten tail is as follow; During the corination celebrations(of QE2)in Singapore, the Hoc Shan master at the time was lion dancing when he encounter a dragon. Now, the 'normal games' that lions and Dragon 'play' when they meet is for the dragon to circle the lion and for the lion to break out. Of course the lion will not be a ble to break out until the dragon dancers get tired. It so happen during that encounter the master has a hard time getting out, so when he got back and out of frustration he cut off the lion's tail. After a while, he patched up the lion, but the lion now has a 9 feet tail instead of a 12 feet tail. However, the master realise the lion became a better lion to dance in. So, it progress untill the 7 feet tail we havew today.

Master Siow is the fifth generation succesor to the Hoc Shan Lion. Through his teams successes, Hoc Shan lion is becoming more and more popular in Malaysia, and maybe have become the dominant style. Judging form type of lions used in the last World Champs,(7 Hoc Shan, 4 Fatt Shan, 3 Fatt Hoc)it is becoming more popular around the world.

Fatt Hoc is a mixture of the Fatt Shan and Hoc Shan style, ie. has the straight back-of-the-head of the Fatt Shan lion and the flat mouth of the Hoc Shan lion. Some teams used them because they find the slanting back-of-the-head of the Hoc Shan lion difficult to dance. I think the picture Albert sent is a bit like this lion, but I can't be sure.

Master Siow's lion is available in many colors including metalic gold, silver, red, purple, blue and green. The thick fur he used in the moustache, eyebrows and the tail is sheep fur(on Sheep skin) from New Zealand. This is the part that I thing the Chinese factory has a harder time copying. Master Siows lion tail uses either rabbit or sheep fur, the latter being more expensive. As for Chinese copies, I haven't seen Master Siow's copy but have seen another Malaysian lion head manufacturers copies, and they are very convincing. One of the way to spot the difference is to see the internal frames, Malaysian uses bamboo, rattan and a bit of aluminum and plastic wherelse the chense ones only used bamboo. The advantage of the Chinese lion is their cheap price, and many teams in Malaysia also oder from them for the annual Chinese New year 'Choi Cheng' and uses their Malaysian ones for competition.

Phew, that's all from me now. Oh, a bit of announcement: the date for the World Champs in Genting will be 7 - 9/7/99.

George,
Malaysia

Hi George,

Which teams used which kinds of lions in 98? For some I can't tell the difference between Hok Shan and Fat-Hok. Are these guesses semi-accurate?

-Hok Shan - Vietnam, Japan, KSK, Macau, Kota Tinggi Malaysia, Long Tian Singapore, Hong Kong B (the green group)

-Fat-Hok - Hong Kong A (the magenta group), Taiwan (with the little drummer), the other Taiwan team?

-Fat Shan - China A, China B, Singapore (the red guys), Melacca Malaysia

Eh, it was worth a shot. I still watch those world champ vcd's almost every day, trying to see new things each time. I have a question about the red ribbon, though. Where do you normally tie it? Does it need to have a blossom with a mirror or just the ribbon part? How big should the blossom be? I saw some groups tie the blossom facing up on the horn, so it looks like the lion is gift-wrapped (like Vietnam I think, and Taiwan Jing Hong Ci Hui). They look pretty cute! At Chung Ngai we bought the biggest blossoms possible, and face them forwards and they cover up the entire horn! I guess it looks pretty good, but I just want to see how other people feel about it.

Willy

Hey Chris,

Just wanted to say thanks for the update on Chung Ngai's email and that the Lion's Cave looks great! Definitely the best lion dance resource on the net. Don't know exactly when the new Chung Ngai site will be up - we just had a photo session yesterday. Just know it will be soon.

Willy
Chung Ngai Dance Troupe, SF

Hi Willy,

The lions are:

-Hok Shan - Vietnam, Japan, KSK, Macau, Hong Kong A (the magenta group), Taiwan (with the little drummer), the other Taiwan team,

-Fat-Hok - Kota Tinggi Malaysia, Long Tian Singapore, Hong Kong B (the green group)

-Fat Shan - China A, China B, Singapore (the red guys), Melacca Malaysia

>Eh, it was worth a shot. I still watch those world champ vcd's almost
>every day, trying to see new things each time. I have a question about
>the red ribbon, though. Where do you normally tie it? Does it need to
>have a blossom with a mirror or just the ribbon part? How big should the
>blossom be? I saw some groups tie the blossom facing up on the horn, so
>it looks like the lion is gift-wrapped (like Vietnam I think, and Taiwan
>Jing Hong Ci Hui). They look pretty cute! At Chung Ngai we bought the
>biggest blossoms possible, and face them forwards and they cover up the
>entire horn! I guess it looks pretty good, but I just want to see how
>other people feel about it.

The red ribbon that is tied around a new lion as It was said the big headed buddha finally tamed the lion by tying its head with the red belt he was using. That is why the big headed buddha only wears a red belt. Usually the ribbon and/or blossom is tied only for the opening ceremony as both have good meanings for the blessing. Some have even more elaborate decorations. As for my team in New Zealand and here in Malaysia we don't do it. As my Malaysian team is a buddhist team they see little use in tying the ribbon and blossom. But they are still many who tied them too over here.

That's all from me now.

George,
Malaysia

Hi Chris,

Good job on the the Lion's Cave!

Here is just something that you might like to add to your site;

Master Siow's shop, Wan Seng Hang Trading has moved and the new address is as follows:

Wan Seng Hang Trading,
22, Jalan Bulan U5/5,
Bandar Pinggiran Subang 2,
Shah Alam 40150, Selangor,
Malaysia
Tel: 60-3-7451239
Fax: 60-3-7451229 (recommended)
H/P: 60-12-3346458

As for upcoming events:

World Lion Dance Championship,
7 - 9 July 2000,
Genting Highlands Resort,
Malaysia

Hope it has been helpful. Keep up the good work and I hope it becomes the offial World Lion dance site!

George Chan,
Malaysia

Hey George,

I was wondering if there is a possibility of printing a pre-made order form for Master Siow's lions, so that way all that's needed to be done is to fill it out and fax it to the fax #?

-Jarrett

George:

Is it true that as the recent developments in competition style lion dancing has required more agressive maneuvers, some schools choose not to "kai kuang" (or open the eyes) and tie the ribbon because they feel the lion becomes too tame for the competitive style.

It does break from tradition, but in my opinion, these lions can skip the religious tradition as long as they are used only for performing in competition. However, they have no status if the "unawakened" lion crosses paths with another lion or is called upon to bless an honored person or an establishment.

Sherman

Where did you get this VCD you are talking about?

ALbert Le

Hey Albert,

You can order the vcd from the Chinese Performing Arts Foundation in SF.

the set of 3 discs (approx 3 hours) is $35 which includes shipping (in the u.s. only) make check out to chinese performing arts foundation and mail to:

attn: david
888 brannan st #275
san francisco, ca. 94103

I don't know if they have many left. It's been quite a while since they first announced they had it. Hope this helps.

Willy

Willy,

Yes we still have some VCD left and can send out for $35 which includes the shipping/handling.

David

Hi David-

It's me Keith (the guy who plays the dragon head on Corey's Dragon team). Would you mine reserving me a copy of the VCDs? I will drop a check in the mail today and you could either send it out to me or drop it buy Corey's office if you get a chance. I would appreciate it. Thanks!

keith soohoo
kei lun martial arts

Keith,

No problem. Just send $25 (not $35) to me at: 888 brannan st #275, S.F., 94103 and let me know where to mail VCD.

david

Wait a minute. so its 25 not 35? which is it david? I plan to order a set and i dont want to be sending the wrong amount of money.

Albert Le

David,

Is this vcd from the recent tournament?

This set of 3 discs VCD is the 1998 Lion Dance World Championship in Malaysia. A short clip can be seen on our web site at www.liondancer.com: just click on "video gallery" the quality of the clip in our site is not so good due to technical limitations of our server, but the original VCD is professional quality.

David

Hi David

I've seen a bit of tha video on your web site... i was just wondering... Is all the commentary in mandirin??

Jason.

I'm not david but I have seen the VCD.

It is all in Manderin. It also has some neat stuff like seeing Master Siow make a lion head, a small unicorn demo, and other background info.

Stephen.

The VCD commentary is mostly Mandarin with the exception of the Kei Lun clip in Cantonese.

Jason,

Yes, commentary is in Mandarin. If you do not understand Mandarin, then this is great opportunity to ask "that someone" to spend an evening with you to translate!

David

I should note, the commentary is in Manderin but the action is universal. More then worth the price of admission :-)

Stephen.

On Sifu H.P Siow's website, what does it say? What's on it? What kind of info does it? thanks to those who answer.

ALbert Le

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 22:27:32 +0100
Subject: //from Jose Carr/from Helen Astor/ cash in advance buyer/foreign sales/pres.please

Can you use a good distributor in South America? This will be on a cash basis on a steady basis.

(So sorry if you already replied back to us, please reply again. Our computer malfunctioned).

Jose Carr
Helen Astor

jose722@angelfire.com
jose722@angelfan.com
jose1@emailchoice.com

Or fax us at 5305098416
(U.S. fax number that we will get electronicaly) include your email address and contact person please.

A gentleman just e-mailed me a request for lion dance drum .wav files. Do any of you guys have .wav's.

Thanks.
Sherman