---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 16:02:56 +0800
From: Herman
Subject: Help!

Hi there!

We need help finding online stores that sell Lion dance equipment. Stores that are not online are also OK as long as they provide overseas delivery as we are located in Indonesia. Please reply this mail for any info. Thanks before and we look forward for any reply.

Kind Regards,
Herman.

Well, after years of promising I'd get it done, I finally did it--The archives of the liondance mail list are now uploaded and online at:

http://www.oocities.org/lionscave1/Archives.html

I wanted to get it all done by March 29 for our four year anniversary, but it was a bigger task than I anticipated. I am missing a few months in 1998 from when my email accounts were down and again later that year when we were transitioning the list from SDSU's servers to the freud server. If you have messages from back then, let me know and I can complete the archives. (Specific dates are March 12-May 1, 1998 and August 4-October 15, 1998.) Also if anyone knows of a way to put up a search engine just for the archives I think that would be helpful.

Anyways, it was fun reading through all of the old stuff...enjoy!

Chris

Thanks so much, Chris. People crazy about lion dancing like me appreciate all your hard work a whole lot. You've created a community of lion dancers around the world, something that has never been accomplished before. It's a gift that will always be appreciated.

Willy
Chung Ngai Dance Troupe

I just read through the archives and July 2000 is coming around. Isn't Art of War coming out with Jason's team featured?? also i got a question for those who saw the SF Chinese New Year parade in person. Where was yau kung moon? i didn't see them during the parade (i was with loong mah). I didn't see on tV either and my brother didn't see them either and he was watchin most of the parade. Were they in the beginning? like the SFPD team? i know they were cut off from the tv thing because our team showed up first on tv, but we werent the first group. If Yau Kung Moon was there, what lions did they bring and how many? which of their dragons did they bring? I'm curious because they usually have one of the best units every year with white crane.

ALbert Le

Hi Albert,

Yeah, I don't know the exact date, but it's supposed to be comming out in July... But They have a tendancy to push release dates back for a reason or another.. I saw some of the footage when we were filming, on the preview screen. Looked good, but don'r know which part they're gonna be using. I visited Yau Kung Moon's website... Their pictures are really impresive, wish i could see one of their performances live.

Jason

I know what you mean by the delays of movie releases jason. Yau Kung Moon is impressive live, but personally i think white crane is better(they dont got a webpage) live by a small margin because they are more agile and energinetic. Let's put it this way. Yau Kung Moon is the coca cola classic of lion dancing while White Crane is the Pepsi. Yau Kung Moon is a better parade unit because they are more organized in terms both dragon and lion dance training and they usualy have 2 or 3 drums drumming in sync with each other during parades which is very impressive. I seen both perform live and they are both amazing.

Albert Le

Albert,

your right one no yau kung moon in The Chinese new year parade this year in SF 2000 things happen.

Anyone else see circus solei Dargonlion dralion. ???

The chinese troupe jumping throught hoops with rap music was hot. but the (dragon lion) dance was weak. as well as the drumming .. I wish we could get them the director of the circus to meet Master siou or come to SF chinatown or meet with SF tiko or melody of china. . to improve their show of druming and dralion.

But i guess if your can create your own charter (dralion) you can do what you want . Really if could be a lot better.

layton

I'm curious of what kind of things happened. I saw them at the flower festival the week before lion dancing and the same day at the community faire lion dancing. Its odd that they didnt lion dance in the parade

albert

Seems like the list has a been a bit quiet lately... Probably because everyone's in the middle of exam time?? I sure am... I'll ask some questions to get everyone talking again and to see what your answers to these questions are...

1) What are and what are the differences between the 3,5,7 star routines?
2) What are the proper ethics involved when meeting a lion from another school?
3) How would you pick up these kind of "chengs" (greens) ie: coconut, watermelon, fruits, crab, big bowl of water with lettuce and coins at the bottom.

Feel free to ask some questions... It'll be good to have everyone's point of views on different things.

Jason

I also got a question. What if a team meets your team and they dont know tradition and iniate a challenge unintentionally, would it be okay to battle anyways? (this is technically directed in san jose with all the vietnamese teams)

ALbert

There is two ways to look at it. In the old days, ignorance was no excuse. It would have been a fast way to learn. Of course, in the old days, only Kung Fu schools would lion dance so it was an appropriate lesson.

Today, many cultural groups are dancing and don't follow or know alot of the traditions. It's up to us to decide if a challenge is really being issued.

The way you ask your question, you sound like you WANT to battle. Just remember that we are not in China and the law may be against you. This is true for any "self defense."

I would look at it as, should I take offense? The group leader should meet with other groups leader and state the offense. Then one can decide the proper response.

Just my thoughts.

Stephen.

ok just asking. I doubt anyone down here has ever really heard of the "challenge" of schools. I didn't realize lion dance challenges were against the law. I think you're taking it as those extreme challenges like what they had in jackie chan's young masters. Down here it's all friendly. The young lion dancers here(with the exception of me, i'd know what a real challenge is) think of it as battling (like break dancing) so i thought it be can be regard as fun like break dancing, but of course i would challenge teams that i know and are friends with and know my intentions.

Are you asking for someone's blessing or permission to start a fight?! It's NEVER "okay" to intentionally start or get into a fight, no matter what the perceived insult is.

Like Stephen said, a lot of groups may be unfamiliar with very traditional lion dance practices and customs. Just because a team may not know proper etiquette, does that give anyone license to beat someone up?

There's no laws in America that give anyone permission to assault someone else based on a perceived insult during a dance. If someone got badly hurt or worse, who do you think might lose a civil lawsuit or criminal assault case? The dancer who blinked the lion's eyes, or the dancer who kicked the other dancer's teeth out?

Before your next dance in public, think how you would react if another lion did a no-no to your lion. Do you instantly respond to the insult with punches and kicks and risk financial losses, jail time, and legal hassles? How much is "face" worth, challenge or not?

Since different schools may have different customs when it comes to meeting lions, it's a much better idea for their leaders to meet BEFORE their lions do to discuss how they both want their lions to behave if they decide to meet their lions at all. A lot of masters might just avoid the potential for bad blood altogether by politely excusing their team.

Even groups on friendly terms can leave on unfriendly terms when it comes to "battling" lions. It is NOT like break dancing. If lion teams regularly got into fights in public, how long would it be before lion dancers were thought of as hoodlums instead of disciplined and trained athletes? We should take care of our art and treasure it, not drag it through the mud by using it as an excuse to fight with people we don't like.

Corey

I agree with you, however, I think you maybe thinking about it way too seriously, concerning civil law suits and kicking ones teeth out. This isn't a movie or a video game where rival school's go to battle in fear of losing "face". Yeah, there are many groups who are unfamiliar about tradition and who are formed by a one member who maybe was taught lion dance a long time ago.

We were taught, when encountering a lion from another group, we're not supposed to raise the head too high, not trying to show too much dominace, or aggression. Three bows are played on the drums, if the other team does not comply,(three bows are universal, even if you don't know too much about tradition, you have to know the three bows), then they initiate the challange. In my opinion, I don't think most groups are out looking for a fight, and we have yet to be challenged.

Jason

Hey guys,

I think there has been a misunderstanding here. I believe what Albert had in mind was a friendly display of two lions challenging each other and pretending to duel with no intention of harm. I guess you would have to know the other group VERY well to do this, but I don't think Albert meant that he was 'looking for a fight'. I have never seen two teams fight, but I have heard about things getting really ugly, with all members getting involved and the police being called to break it up.

Now this brings up an interesting topic - should you stage fight scenes within your lion dance? That would be lions within your troupe pretending to battle for the cheng or something like that. How do you folks feel about this? I personally don't like the idea of fighting in general, no matter if it's staged or not.

Willy

ps - I sent a very 'important' message earlier but it seems to have been held up. Rob, can you track it down?

Its true, ignorance does cause misunderstandings. To maintain a respectable reputation, I try to direct my heads to face the other club head on and pay respects politely. Last year we were playing in a circle of people as another club walked toward us for a friendly greeting. They personally asked if they could greet us before bringing their lions into our circle - something you should always do so as not to offend the club that is already playing its own captured audience. In preparation for the other club approaching, we lined our heads up with the tails to the drum. The drum is the heart and soul of the club and its sifu. The lions should stand in front of the drum and sifu while another club approaches.

When the other club got into the circle, we were facing straight ahead at them as they entered and they started playing with the crowd instead of facing us. We stood there waiting for them to face us for three bows but their inexperience was obvious. I had to ask for one of their leaders who was standing around to face his heads to us. It was rude for them to invade our cirlce and start feeding from our audience.

This disrespect might cause a conflict, but they didn't know. However, had they known and blatently disrespected us, there can be two options. One would be to consider it a challenge and begin to play agressively. However, the more reasonable and in my mind, more honorable thing to do, would be to turn around and walk away.

Sherman

Hi, I'd like to throw my 2 cents in...

Fighting could be either playfully challenging, or it could be ugly, all out war, like in the old days in HK and China.

I don't know much about lion dancing, but I've seen some local groups compete with displays of skill. I haven't heard of anybody taking the choy chang from another club over hear, but I've heard about it in some of the bigger cities and in HK and China. Worst case scenario I've heard of involved a couple of clubs in open competition in HK about 45 years ago. Lots of lions got smashed and a few people got slashed with butterfly swords.

It seems the best thing to do would be to only come if you are invited, and just always be polite.

One question I asked the group a while ago was about "fighting lions". Does anybody have info about how they would reinforce the horns and heads with metal for attacking other lions? (and no, this is not just something from Wong Fei Hung part 3, hehehe).

Thanks,

Paul Skrypichayko,
Edmonton, Canada

This may seem silly, but wouldn't it seem like common sense to just be respectful of other liondance groups? I was also wondering if there are any connotations toward battling a lion within your own group. My group just got a new head and were discussing battling lions and also lions acting in different styles (like drunk, my friend told me about this he said it looks cool)

Andy!

Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 02:23:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Andrew J. Law"
Subject: RE: [LionDance] List

I hope so... That would be pretty damn funny. Just kidding.

Andy!

On Mon, 10 Apr 2000, Albert Le wrote:
> I also got a question. What if a team meets your team and they dont know
> tradition and iniate a challenge unintentionally, would it be okay to battle
> anyways? (this is technically directed in san jose with all the vietnamese
> teams)

> 1) What are and what are the differences between the 3,5,7 star routines?

I've listened to an instructional tape where you can tell the difference... Not so much for explaining on email.

> 2) What are the proper ethics involved when meeting a lion from another school?

Currently in discussion...

> 3) How would you pick up these kind of "chengs" (greens) ie: coconut, watermelon, fruits, crab, big bowl of water with lettuce and coins at the bottom.

We've had people lob oranges into the mouth of our lion before. That was fun. I suppose that being creative and doing it in cool new ways would be the best way always. Does anyone know more about this?

OK, Your definition of Challenge and mine are different. Have you ever participated in this "break dance" type challenge? What does it consist of?

I have never been part of a challenge. Our Si-sook and Si-hings told me of challenges in Hong Kong where they would bring out the butterfly knives and broadswords. People usually came away hurt from these. (Don't remember them saying anyone died but it was serious stuff to not follow protocol) So something like this would be against the law.

I heard of one school who *apparently* didn't know the traditions and offended another school in the US. The offended school encircled the first school's lions with their own and were making menacing movements. Once the Sifu realized these guys meant business, he had his lions do the sleeping lion routine and spoke to other Sifu. He was able to clear up the misunderstanding and nothing happened.

I heard this story first hand from the offended Sifu. It was in the US but not in SF or NYC. The offended Sifu had every intention of permanently damaging the other schools lions and anyone who tried to stop him. He trains in the techniques of fighting lions as well as traditional martial arts.

I don't condone or even recommend this. That's why it's best to always show respect when meeting another team. Some of the obvious things are never kick towards the other team and don't point your lions face at the other lions rear. (smelling the butt). Best thing to do is send the sifu or leader out to meet the other sifu and agree to both pass in respectful bows.

Anyone else hear of these stories? As I said in my post. This kind of thinking is outdated and not appropriate for the US.

Stephen

> From: willyle@juno.com
> Now this brings up an interesting topic - should you stage fight scenes
> within your lion dance? That would be lions within your troupe
> pretending to battle for the cheng or something like that. How do you
> folks feel about this? I personally don't like the idea of fighting in
> general, no matter if it's staged or not.

This seems like a good thing. Just like martial arts demos. We do this. From the fighting traditions, we have staged some battles for the Chang. We never break or hurt the other lion. It shows alot of acrobatics and adds to the drama of the show.

We do add one twist, after getting the chang, the winner shares with the loser and they close the set as friends.

Stephen.

>We've had people lob oranges into the mouth of our lion before. That was
>fun. I suppose that being creative and doing it in cool new ways would be
>the best way always. Does anyone know more about this?

I've seen one club from Brunei approach a plate with a large orange on it, with the hong bao underneath. The lion checks it out, and seems to go into sleeping lion mode with the head coverring and eating the orange. One or two minutes later, the head comes up, and the orange peel is sliced into nice segments, with the actual orange resting in the middle.

After the lion eats the water basin chang, my sifu usually gets us to return the basin or dish with one or two oranges and tangerines to the owner of the business...something about 'wui tauh'...something about taking an giving a little back...sounds right?

regards,

Dr. Doong Chang

Paul,

The Brunei group performed a traditional cheng (maze/obstacle to an ultimate goal), full of symbolism and good wishes.

The orange (tangerine) and hong bao together form the rebus and Chinese saying "Dai Gut Lai See" or "great luck and profits (in business)". Dai means big or great and Gut is a homonym and can mean tangerine or luck (both have the same sound). a hong boa (red envelope) is better known as "Lai See" in the southern Cantonese dialect which is a homonym for profitable business or affairs. Many traditional Chinese families display a large tangerine (with leaves attached) together with a lai see red envelope in their home during the new year period as a symbol of their hopes and aspirations for luck and profits.

the Chinese also have another saying that you must have flowers to beget fruits. aside from being nice decorations, flowers are important because they not only symbolize spring and the beginning of a new year, but also represent the beginning of a life cycle. from flowers you have fruits and from fruits you have seeds and from seeds you have rebirth/continuation (a new generation). So the peel of the tangerine should be left in the shape of a flower and the fruit (with seeds inside) representing fruition and continuation is given or left to the store owner. I assume this lion dancer had to go into the sleeping lion mode because he was using the traditional method of a sharpened chinese coin tied to a string around his neck to peel the orange in such a way. This takes time and some care. However, one can now buy a plastic orange peeler or an attachment with a Swiss army knife that can do the job in seconds without the need to slow down the dance.

In San Francisco I have never seen any group peel the tangerine in such a way. Most often the tangerine is broken apart and tossed or even kicked. Some say this is symbolic of "spreading dai gut" or great luck.

Most Chinese art./ceremonies are full of symbolisms and are quite meaningful to those who are in the know and perplexing and even strange/weird to those not in on the secrets. regretfully there are few books in English explaining these symbols, rebuses, and homonyms.

Wow! Thanks for the info David.

I almost never get to see any lions go through puzzles like this, and they are usually never explained to people in the younger generation like me.

Can you tell me anything about approaching a pa kua that is made on the floor? People have told me that each of the trigrams represents a door, one is the correct door to enter through, another is the proper one to exit through, and one is the death door, etc...

Also, do you know anything about approaching a live crab or a live snake? I've heard that these are only used in challenges.

Thanks,

Paul Skrypichayko