Hi Guys,

I also like to share my experience when meeting other lion dance team this year (during our New Year performances on the streets of Seattle).

First, our team meets the Blooming Orchid's lion dance team. After going to the Lion Dancer's Conference, I got to know Thuan--one of the leader of their team--so we were friends but my team do not know that. The drumer began beating the drum very aggressively as we approach Thuan's team. I realized that my team have tried to shut the other team down...so I signal for him to take it easy....my team then relax a bit and at the end the two team turn and bow at each other. This was the first time my team (including me) meet another team on the street. I was a bit nervous but we were all friendly about it. There was also talk of getting together in the summer. We meet them a few weeks latter at a different show and we end up sharing the show. It was a fun experience.

Another encounter our team had was with two other liondance team...one after another. The store owner request us to come and bless his store. Appearently, he invited all three teams at consecutive time. Since we're the ammature team, we gave the honor for the Mak Fei kung fu team go first. During their performance, I went over and ask Si Fu Mak for our team to meet and bow with his team. He accept and told me that: "No kicking". At first I did not know what that means. I thought that he do not want his lions to be damage by our kick (which we do not do). Our team bow with them, it was kind of a crazy situation because his students do not seem to know what is going on. We bow and play around with their team for awhile and then began blessing the store. Si Fu Mak finished up with is routine and left.

So we continued doing our things...our lions went inside the store to bow to the altars...when we came out, the Seattle International Lion Dance Team had already arrived and set up to go...they watched a while then start to play the drum and their lions starts playing with our lions. Now I didn't know what they wanted because they are not lined up to do the bow. So, to be save, I have my drumer play the 3 bow...our lions does the bow but they were still playing around and not knowing that we are bowing to them...as we finish our bows, they then bows to us. I though, "This is funny"...and I don't want to be rude (playing around while others are bowing at you) so I signal for my drumer to start the three bows again to match with their three bows. It was a crazy and confussing environment. I didn't know who the leader of their team was. After the three bows, they played with us...licking our lions (doing the kiss) and hang out...suddenly, they stopped and their dancers gave us a thumbs up. I take that as a signal to return to bless the store. We then ended our blessing and took off. Luckily, there was no fight and both teams seem to have fun doing it. I was so glad because all this time, I was affraid that a fight would break out because my dancers did something wrong inintensionally. phew....:-)

Latter, I shared this experience ("No kicking" part) with Geoff and Thuan and his team.

It was just a wonderful experienced for me and my team. Although, as a leader of the team, I do not know when to terminate the greetings..and who has the right to break the greetings?

Vo Minh Duc

thanks for the big heads up!

> Latter, I shared this experience ("No kicking" part) with Geoff and Thuan
> and his team.

Don't get too wound up about it!! Just be respectful and things go fine. The no kicking part I think relates to the story I told about not going up on one leg when you bow to other lions (gum gai go lai stance in hung) and keeping both legs on the ground.

g

Wow... sounds like something you'd see in a movie.

>Hi all,
>I just wanted to throw my $0.02 into the discussion (I probably told this
>before..) about a story my si-hing told me. About 10 years ago our group
>was invited to go back to my sifu's hometown in Tai San which is close to
>Guang Zhou. When they got there, sifu told the students that there was
>going to be a 'little' thing they had to do in the morning before the main
>performance. They started the dance on the sidewalk by the van, and there
>were just a few people around.. until they turned the corner to start
>towards some kind of arena they were supposed to go to. When they turned
>the corner, they were shocked to see something like 5,000 people lined down
>this enterance way to the stadium, with kids singing (my si-hing didn't know
>the song ;-) with flowers..etc.. They never had seen anything like that
>before! So, they just continuted down the path, had no idea what they were
>supposed to do, so played with the audience etc.. when they got to the end
>of the path, there were something like 10-15 lions from local schools, on
>their knees, bowing to our lions.

That's what I thought... my brothers were very touched at the hospitality of the people there. It must have been quite an experience for them, mostly white americans, going back to my sifu's hometown in China and doing the Chinese lion dance! I'm sure the some of the Chinese were also proud that their tradtions were being spread among people outside the country.

geoff

At 05:00 PM 4/11/00 -0700, you wrote:
>The eyelids are more like eyebrows. On modern heads the lids are made silk
>and completely cover the eye when closed. These are more like rectangular
>flaps as wide as the eye, but only sticking out maybe two or three inches.
>They are set above the eye in slits and wiggle up and down.

The eye lids you are talking about, are they like the eye lids shown on wong fei hung's father's red and black Kwan Yue kung's lion in "ONCE UPON A TIME IN CHINA 4 - sequel to KING OF THE LION DANCERS. In the end of the movie when wong fei hung(not jet lee) is going to use a copper lion head to defeat the 7 countries in a national lion dance , his father is standing next to him and he has the same eye lids you are talking about! If any body recalls any of this information please back me up on this one!

thanx Daniel

>The eye lids you are talking about, are they like the eye lids shown on
>wong fei hung's father's red and black Kwan Yue kung's lion in "ONCE UPON A
>TIME IN CHINA 4 - sequel to KING OF THE LION DANCERS

Haven't seen that movie, or even heard of it, sorry. Do you know who's in it or where I could get a copy to see?

I'm also looking for the movie where Wong Fei Hong does the funeral lion dance for his friend who gets shot in a trap during a lion dance competition. Does anyone know what movie this is?

Chris

Actually.. Isn't it more like 'gwai lows'?? ha ha

gwai jai

The ultimate liondance movie is "the lion's roar" with a northern vs. southern lion scene.

The movie called Dreadnaught has a good liondance sequence in the middle. It stars Yuen Biao but has Kwan Tak Hing playing Wong Fei Hong as a supporting role.

Jackie Chan's "young master" also has a neat sequence in the beginning.

Sorry, don't know the chinese name.

Stephen

I confirmed where that style of lion dancing i talked about came from. It comes Vietnam. Everything those groups have are all from Vietnam whetther they are a chinese group or vietnamese. And for those who were curious about Joi Ying, Joi Ying has become a small dwindling school. Their numbers are nearly gone(due to their poor ways of school have their hours and teach their martial arts). NND has pretty much gone that way too but i can't confirm how much they drop. Yon Yee Tong right now is the higher of teams now. Most of the teams is San Jose now use Vietnamese lions. I will also soon find the place where you can get their lions, gongs, carts and other stuff. I'll try to give samples and contact info for them for anyone who wants to know.

Albert Le

>I'm also looking for the movie where Wong Fei Hong does the funeral lion
>dance for his friend who gets shot in a trap during a lion dance
>competition. Does anyone know what movie this is?

Hi its daniel Chris, the movie you are looking for is the one i am talking about. It should be wong fei hung #4 the first episode not starring jet li

Hmmm... a vietnamese Lion? never heard of that before, What's that like?

i posted some pix up. http://www.oocities.org/cane20/pix.html Look at NND and Vovinam. They have some Vietnamese Lions. Also if you look around in BOLD's website you'll see some. Not the main website, go to the Vovinam Washington website. Look in the photo albums. There are many different variations of Vietnamese Lions in terms of styling. NND's lion is the better of the vietnamese lions. there are some many distinct difference in the lion. If you look at the horn of the lion, you'll notice the difference it has between the hac son lion and the fat shan lion. also the mouth is wider and shorter then the chinese and malaysian lions. There are videos of vietnamese lions. If you go to a vietnamese store, try to look up panasia video 29 or something. it should say lan, su, and rong on the cover. it should have pictures of the lions on it. On the video they have some amazing things. they got lions on stilts and they got lions on the those pole thingies from compitions. They do backflips and front flips with the whole lion of the poles. The video has a lot of creative things. if you can get it, watch it.

Albert le

Hey thanks for all the info on the VN lions and stuff, Albert.

I'd like to share some of my experiences on this topic. About 3 years ago one of my family friends went back to Vietnam and brought a lion back for us. Let me tell you, those things are great deals but not many people I know are too crazy about visiting Vietnam so I don't know if I'm going to get a chance to get any more of those. Anyway, the lion is not with me right now but I can recall a few details.

First, the horn is detachable. I don't know if that's a good or bad thing. The shape of the horn is boxy, like a curved four-sided tube, and it ends in a rounded knob like the Hoc Shan lions. However, there are spikes on my horn, with a wire frame underneath so it's pretty sturdy.

Another feature is that the eye reservoirs also have spikes, which I think is a nice touch (though not necessary). Overall, the lion has a Fatt Shan shaped face but a little narrower and longer than what you might expect. There was a lot of attention paid to detail. For example, the hair on the moustache is lined with a bright tapestry border, which is a really nice touch. The paint job, however, is not that great. There are a lot of polka dots on mine, with rather weak and unproportional flare designs. Plus, they seem to like using neon colors like bright pink and lime green. Ugh.

But the best feature of these lions is that they are virtually indestructable; much better durability than Chinese heads. After three years of constant use there are no major structural damages and the lion is perfectly salvagable. I mean, the only problems on it are cosmetic, like the exterior getting dirty, the hair falling off, etc. Oh, the hair is extremely thin and wispy - another problem. But it can be fixed. Overall, I really like these lions as they are sturdy, light, and have really nice shape to them. If you look on Albert's picture site, you see the San Jose Vovinam team with the gold lions. Mine is just like those.

Did I mention it was a great deal? For $200 we got the lion head and tail, 4 pairs of matching pants, a gong, pair of cymbals, and a big monk mask. Wow! The instruments aren't really that great, but the deal is still phenomenal. But like I said, too bad no one I know is going back to Vietnam for a while.

Willy

I'm also aware of all that stuff too. The one you have is the newer vietnamese model. The old ones weren't that great. It's true that Vietnamese lions have a very good structure but the ring around the head HURTS!!!!!!!!! The old VN lions use to have Fat Shan horns, but they adapted the Hac Son horn not too long ago. Like Willy said, they're detachable. Wow you got all that stuff for 200 dollars. All that.........hey is the gong you bought the steel gong one? probably is i think.....the cymbals are horrible from Vietnam. Do you know the name of place?

Albert Le

Hi again folks I have some things on my mind that I've been wanting to clear up. Our group mainly has Fat San heads and only recently have we started using Fat Hok heads. There's a clear cut difference between how ppl dance between those 2, but would it be ok to dance the Fat Hok head *similar* but not exactly like a Hok San? I.E. stances, movements, dance in itself...

Also our group isn't really familiar with the 18 style drumming, would it be ok if we were to borrow some themes from other groups and make up our own? I mean basically almost all groups out there use this style and I extremely like it as well. We just don't know where to learn it.

Hi Guys,

I was just reading some of the archives and noticed someone had brought up the subject of the monks, but no one really elaborated on it. I was just wondering, how do you guys use the monk in your routines with the lions? Do you have a "monk routine", a routines just for the monk without any lions??

Jason

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:58:51 -0400
From: John Valley
Subject: Re: [LionDance] Archives

Hello everyone...long time reader, first time poster...

At my school we use the monk as a companion to the lion. For most performances for large groups we will act out a play of sorts. Where the monk will discover the lion, wake it, then play. Sometimes we will have the monk do parts of a set to allow time for the lion to rest. Just this last New Year we used two monks for the first time. Myself and the Tai Chi instructor of the school we were doing the dance for. We have discussed other ideas like having the two monks mock training and such. There are some pictures of us at our website.

http://zykungfu.madison.wi.us/

John

We do not use the monk in our routines. Hopefully, Corey on the list can comment as he has a very good monk routine. Also, he spent some time with Dr. Hu picking up the finer details of the monk. There is a lot of symbolism and ritual in the monk role. It's not just a big head guy there for comic relief.

For routines of monk w/o lion, that's what we call kung fu demo :-)

Stephen

Well, we have a monk routine. Sometimes we'll use it before the lion dance perforance. We'll have the monk sleeping. He'll wake up, go to an imaginary well get some water and washes, stretch... that type of stuff. He'll find a broom and sweep and then usualy performs the long staff form with it. He'll go wake up the lion and then the performance will start from there. It's a little bit more elaborate than that, but it' kinds hard to point out every single detail. the monk routine itself usually runs about 10 to 15 minutes.

Jason

There's also the husband and wife that play with the lions, maybe Corey can comment on that as well

Geoff

To those who know the details of the places on where you get lion heads. Is jonie uniforms open on weekends? Are they a shop, or just a place where you order from? Does cheong kee jan open on weekends too? Has anyone been to Clarion Music Center? Would you recommend it?

Albert Le

I think Jonie is sometime there on weekends but I think you need to let her know in advance because her place is not open for business on weekends, at least not to my knowledge. Her place is very small. It's not really a shop like you would see in Chinatown. I don't know where Cheong Kee Jan is? Is that is Chinatown? As for that Clarion Music Center, if it is the same place tha I am thinking of in Chinatown near BofA, then they have a lot of lionheads. I am not sure about the price though. Last time I went, it seem like they just got a new shipment in. What I saw there were a lot of lionheads that I don't see anywhere else. By that I mean the colors. It's kinda weird but pretty cool. Hope that helps.

S

Hey Albert,

About your previous question, the gong I got with the VN head is copper. But it's a very cheap, thin copper. Wouldn't last that long and doesn't sound too good. The cymbals are even worse - they don't even have knobs/handles to hold on to and they are made of tin or something. I have no idea. Now on to your other question.

Jonie Uniforms is open on Saturdays. They are a business operating out of a converted residential building. On the ground floor is their office and sewing room. In their attic they have their lion dance merchandise (lots of drums, heads, masks, assorted clothing and accessories). It's very easy to get to, also. From downtown SF, just hop on the MUNI L line and go all the way to Taraval and 25th Ave. in the Sunset district. It's really convenient. Right now they don't have much, but you can still get a good idea of what they have.

Cheong Kee Jan is like a little mini snack market that also sells various imported stuff. They are underneath the big Empress of China restaurant. They don't have that much stuff, and it's way overpriced. But they are open everyday I think.

Clarion is a really fantastic place to look around - it's beautiful there, esp after their remodeling. But their specialty is not really lion dance equipment (just like Cheong Kee Jan) and they don't always have the best merchandise. Right now, they are out of lion dance drums, too. But they are the only place I know with kei luns (unicorns). Very interesting. They are open everyday but Sunday. I think Excelsius and Clarion are the same place.

Of these three, Jonie's is the best place, hands down. Her best deal is her drums which are only $210 for 26" and I think $50 more for 28", whereas other places sell drums for $350 and up. She also has some of Master Siow's heads in stock, but they sell for $1000. She does custom work, like putting on the laser paper on her drums ($50 extra), refinishing her lion heads, and making custom costumes. I would have considered buying some of Master Siow's heads from her, but for $1000 each you could go to Malaysia and get one head yourself for that price.

If you can, you should check out Darwell Imports as they have the best prices. From downtown SF, take the MUNI 15 all the way down to 25th St. I believe. Go 2 blocks west, just past the 101 highway entrance ramp. I have to warn you that they are out of stock on drums and cymbals right now, though. They do have some lion heads left but their best stuff is gone (they get their new shipment only every November, and things go fast).

Alot of the big souvenir places in Chinatown are now carrying some lion heads and various other lion dance equipment. But once again they are way overpriced and lion dance stuff is not their specialty. Your first choice should always be Darwell and Jonie's - Darwell for general stuff like instruments and inexpensive Chinese lions and Jonie's for really nice lions, costumes, and accessories.

Hope this helps all of you.

Willy
Chung Ngai Dance Troupe

Ah, more information...

On Wed, 19 Apr 2000 00:16:36 -0700 Si Si Lee writes:
> I think Jonie is sometime there on weekends but I think you need to let her
> know in advance because her place is not open for business on weekends, at
> least not to my knowledge. Her place is very small. It's not really a shop
> like you would see in Chinatown.

Yeah, I had to let her know in advance, too. But when I got there, I saw some of her employees working in the sewing room so I assumed they work on Saturdays, at least. Just call to be safe.

>I don't know where Cheong Kee Jan is? Is
> that is Chinatown? As for that Clarion Music Center, if it is the same
> place tha I am thinking of in Chinatown near BofA, then they have a lot of
> lionheads. I am not sure about the price though. Last time I went, it seem
> like they just got a new shipment in. What I saw there were a lot of
> lionheads that I don't see anywhere else. By that I mean the colors. It's
> kinda weird but pretty cool. Hope that helps.

Yes, Cheong Kee Jan is in Chinatown, just like Clarion. Clarion's lions are pretty wild and not too commonly seen. Jing Mo's website has some pictures of Clarion's lions - the Hoc Shan ones with the bright neon colors, etc. People either love them or hate them. I personally like their shape, but some of the colors are just too weird for me! One other thing to mention is that Clarion's lions are short tailed as well as Jonie's lions. Darwell has long tail lions only.

Willy

This has been a very informative thread. It was suggested to possibly list a rating for the equipment vendors on the Lion's Cave website. I was thinking about how to do it and have a few possibilities. Let me know what you think and I'll try to implement the best one. Each will be based on customer review since I haven't had the experience of dealing with most of the places.

1) A five-star rating system like hotels and restaurants. This would be based on three areas: Quality, Price, and Ease of transaction. This would be rated against other vendors in the same area. A logistical problem would be how to determine the standards for the system.

2) Post a list of customer reviews (like the previous few posts to the list) on a link for each store. I could also put sample pics up if people sent them in. A potential "problem" is that while I want to have a place that's helpful and welcomes honest reviews, I also don't want to be caught up in any legal battles if someone posts a potentially negative review and the store claims it somehow damaged their business.

3) I could try to contact each place and have them write their own advertising and post sample pics. I would ask them to provide a price list for the various size heads and instruments, hours of operation, etc.

4) ?? I'm open to all thoughts and suggestions...

Chris