Just my thoughts...

#1 is not a good idea unless they are your ratings. (ie. your personal experiences) What I consider a 4 may not be what others consider a 4 etc. Doing an avg also doesn't work because I might rate them low in service but high in quality which a simple star rating doesn't convey.

#3 is good just from a marketing view. When we hear of places, we should ask them for their own marketing. Limit it to a number of characters and maybe provide a link. If *we* are smart, maybe you can get some group discount or money to keep the site going in exchange for the "ad" space. It also allows for business hours, contacts and directions to be posted.

#2 is the best way to go in conjunction with #3. this is the Amazon approach and gives the reader the most information to make a decision. Of course, it's the most work for you :-(

Stephen

Hi Chris,

Sounds good, but I don't think it would be fair if we were to "rate" a store per say. I think a customer review would be a bit better. Like How questions were answered, how informative the person was and how helpful they were. And by these reviews, it would be up to the people reading these articles to draw up their own conclusion. I think your third point is good. You can always ask the store to write up a description of what kind of equipment they carry, price list and maybe some pictures.

Jason

Thanx willy. I've already been to darwell's. they have a few drums left, but they dont have much of a selection. I was also wondering about Excelsiour and Clarion. They both sound like the same place. I been to the place but i saw excelsiour on the sign outside. And when i look at the address, they seem to be at the same place on the map. What gave it away was the remodeling. I been to excelsiour twice. one before the remodling and one after. It looks very nice now. What kind of lions does darwell get every november? Do they have a large selection of colors? I just know that they got the bristled lions and new models from china. How much are Master Siow's Lions? What are the shipping prices and what are the prices for the pants?

ALbert Le

Hi Albert,

>What kind of lions does darwell get every november? Do they
>have a large selection of colors? I just know that they got the bristled
>lions and new models from china. How much are Master Siow's Lions? What are
>the shipping prices and what are the prices for the pants?

I had asked them to send me a catolog of their supplies. IF i'm not mistaken... aren't they a souvenir shop? In the catolog they sent me, all they had were the old fashion bristle heads. I asked them if they had any other kinds and they said what's in the catolog is what they have.... ????

Jason

They more newer models. They're the same models clarion has, but they have different and smaller color selections, but darwell is cheaper. I've been to their place and showroom. Darwell's selection from the last time i went were not every exotic colors(the new models) while clarion stretches the mind kinda. If you go to Jing Mo's website, they have those models. Go to California Groups on the Lion's Cave. This is what I saw from the last time I went to Clarion and Darwells(on the same daY) a month ago. Clarion has deluxe metallic red, white fur and black, rainbow, i think metalic orange(white fur), metallic black and black fur.(they are more i think but i don't remember the rest).Medium, Pink Fur and purple fur. At darwell's from what was in the showroom, medium black and red tail(black fur) and white fur rainbow tail. All of the mediums are Hac Son styled and all the deluxe seem to be Fat Shan. I'm going to go check clarion again this saturday so i'll what they have.

Albert Le

That's a great idea. I think that will be very helpful for everyone.

S

----- Original Message -----
> This has been a very informative thread. It was suggested to possibly list
> a rating for the equipment vendors on the Lion's Cave website. I was
> thinking about how to do it and have a few possibilities. Let me know what
> you think and I'll try to implement the best one.

How can I get a catalog from Darwell?

S

Hi guys,

I usually sew the sashes for my gung fu school. I was thinking of sewing lion dance pants for the school over the summer. Anyone has any experience, or have any idea on how hard it might be. Any suggestions will be nice. I have never seen a pair up close, so are they more like just normal pants with extra layers of fabric on top or is it more complicated than that?

Thanks,

S

Hey guys,

I think personal reviews and experiences is the best way to go considering there is nothing official about any of these opinions. The only concern I have is that most of these places have variable supply throughout the year - they have everything in stock for the winter and virtually nothing from spring through summer. So, experiences may vary and to make an informed decision, you have to be up to date.

Willy

Maybe the seasonal availability of items can be posted as well, then people will know when is the best time to go. I also think that a review is the best idea.

S

On Wed, 19 Apr 2000 16:00:31 -0700 Albert Le writes:
> Thanx willy. I've already been to darwell's. they have a few drums
> left, but they dont have much of a selection.

No problem Albert. Timing is everything with Darwell and a lot of these places. There's little left after Chinese New Year.

>What kind of lions does darwell get every november?
> Do they have a large selection of colors? I just know that they got the
> bristled lions and new models from china.

I can't really say what they get every year. Their selection right now is really small. They have the Chinese Fatt Shan heads with the bristle hair like always...some are really nice and elaborate. There are some with fancy topknots, too. They also have the Fatt Shan heads with the wispy feathery hair. I saw some rather weird looking Hoc Shan heads, too. But I definitely know they have a lot better heads when they get their new shipment every year since my troupe leader has gotten stuff there for a long time. All kinds of colors available (not just what's featured in the catalog). Actually, the catalog is pretty bad. Doesn't show you what they really have.

>How much are Master Siow's Lions? What are
> the shipping prices and what are the prices for the pants?

Well you get 2 pairs of pants with the lion. You'll have to ask the Marin group how much shipping is. His heads cost from about 1500 ringgits for the normal color lions to around 1900 ringgits for the silver, gold, and batik ones I think. Last I checked, US dollar got 3.8 ringgits, so divide these prices roughly by 4. These are great deals but getting them can be a problem. It's best to go over there yourself and pick up a bunch.

Willy

Darwell
Contact Corine Lai
email: Darwell@rocketmail.com

Clarion
Contact: Clara Hsu
email: info@clarionmusic.com

Sherman

You can call and ask them to send you one. All the info in on the lion's cave page.

Jason.

-----Original Message-----
>How can I get a catalog from Darwell?

Hi Guys,

I am sorry to break the flow of messages. But I am running into a problem with Netscape and JS while trying to develope a search engine for our list's Archive. Please take a few moment to check out the problem. If you can solve it, please let me know ASAP.

Here is the test site:

http://students.washington.edu/dvo/test/js/searchNcp.html

Thankx,

Vo Minh Duc

Hi Guys,

I have had a few experience with Darwell. I found their services to be very good. I talked Corine there and I also communicate over e-mail too. I had ordered from them a drum, cymbols, gongs, buddha head, and lion head. They are pretty quick if items are in stock. I am planning on getting another one as backup for next new year, since I know from experience this year to get equipment early otherwise they run out!

Anyways, when you ask Corine to send you a catalog, ask her to send you a list of prices too...I found that sheet to be very helpful in ordering.

I hope that helps.

Vo Minh Duc

Hi guys,

I have got the prototype for searching our archive posted on my test site. Please take a few minute to go test it and give me suggestions base on that.

Here is the URL:

http://students.washington.edu/dvo/test/js/search.html

Have a great weekend!

Thankx,

Vo Minh Duc

Cool idea man... good job!

Jason

Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 13:29:05 +0530
From: nrityanjali
Subject: Namaste and Hallow

Hallow Sir/Madem,

We have fortunate enough to visit your website and found it very interesting and encouraging to the people those who are involved in the protecting the folk dance traditions of country.

We are a group of dancing people who are involved in the same type of activities like presenting the rich folk and tribal dances of andhra pradesh, south india. we till date have participated in many festivals organised by govt., of india and other private organisations.

we sincerely request your goodself to give us a chance to present our traditional folk and tribal dances of andhra pradesh [india] in any one of the festivals organised by you. We have a groupe of talented dancers who can perform and also can give lecture demonstrations, seminars, workshop on indian cultural traditions. Till date we have the experience of presenting our papers in various seminars and relevant functions.

The following is my address and also the email address to which you can contact, we are ready to pay an amount for the membership in your organisation. If interested we are ready to send the details of our organisation and also some photographs in action for your kind perusal.

Thanking you,

Yours truly,
P.Narsing rao
Director/choregrapher.

email:pnarsingrao@yahoo.com
address:
Nrityanjali academy, H.No;9-3-501, Regimental Bazar, Secunderabad-25
Andhra Pradesh, India.
Ph[040] 7702641, 7705032, 7705034.

Office address:
P.Narsing Rao, Nrityanjali academy, Plot.No:74, Opp: Excel apartments,
Shesachela colony, W.Marredpally,Secunderabad-500026

Hi guys,

I was wondering... can anyone suggest a decent brand of firecrackers?? We've been using firecrackers that've been saved up for god knows how long. They don't seem to burn properly .. or nicely for that matter... they're not consistant.. it's like... pack....pack...p-p-p-p-pack... pack.....thud....peeeew. hehehe... that last one is when it doesn't explode but the powder will burn and make that kinda noise. Can anyone help??

Jason

HI JASON, THE BRANDS THAT OUR CLUBS USE ARE "DOUBLE HAPPINESS" A.K.A. "ALL REDS" AND YELLOW JACKETS , THE YELLOW JACKETS ARE A YELLOW AND BLACK CHEKERED LOOK

Hey guys,

I just saw a film in my comparative literature class with quite a lot of footage of dragon and lion dancing (parade). The film is called 'The Shanghai Gesture' and it was released in 1941. It's very racist and stereotypical but I found it really fascinating watching footage of the lion dance from 60 years ago. The footage lasts for about half an hour, intermixed with scenes from a dinner party. But you could hear the music for quite a long time. Check it out.

Willy

Jason,

There are lots of good brands. Try the Black Cat, Brothers, Red Lantern, Cherry Bombs, Double Lucks, Twin Dragons, Duck Brand, Star Spangled Banner, Roaring Tiger, Roller Coaster Brand, Lotus Brands, etc. Those firecrackers contains titatium powder, silver nitrate with flash powder. They shatter the firecrackers with both sound and flash. The All Reds, Celebration, Horse Brand and other cheaper brands have mud mixed with black powder that causes it is break the individual firecrackers in half so there is not too much sound and the ends becomes small flying bullets. After burning, ,there is a pile of red/brown clay on the ground.If you have any price comparsion, buy the more expensive ones. You pay for what you get. Another indicator of good firecrackers is to look for the handmade types with the crimp ends. The junk firecrackers have a clay/mud plug at the end which you see as very smooth and flat.

If they have the factory names or factory regions, look for the Bejing or Northern cities like Temple of Heaven, Link Triads. As you get closer to Hong Kong or the Southern Cities like Doong Koong, they have all mass production by machines and use inferior powder with clay as mixers. They don't have quality control and they charge very cheap just to make a sale. Their attitute is once it leaves China, the buyers do not have any recourse. If you don't like it, you cannot take it back to China.

If you let me know what area of the country you are from, I can get you some wholesalers or dealers and let you know what brands they carry. For your information, I am in this business so I know quite a lot about this industry. Besides that, we use a lot, by the containers in Hawaii all year around.

Ernie

hello lion dancers:

just wanted to foward this article to the list....

Dr. Doong Chang

POLICE SAY LION DANCER GOT AMPUTATION THREAT
=============================================
By Jason Proctor, Staff Reporter, The Province newspaper.

Vancouver police have arrested two leaders of the Chinese Yau Kung Moon dance company accused in a bizarre case of extortion.

Const. Anne Drennan said the Asian gang squad started investigating the allegations after it came to light that some dancers with prestigious lion-dance teams had complained that they were being forced to keep dancing.

Threats are alleged to have included demands of money should dancers want to leave the troupe - and in the case of one male dancer, a violent price to pay for desertion.

"The only way he could quit or retire was to leave a hand or a leg," Drennan said yesterday.

"So that he could not dance any more."

The two accused are Debbie Chow and Donny Jang.

Lion dancing is a form of martial art-style dancing popular at Chinese festivals and special events.

The Yau Kung Moon troupe has performed for the Vancouver police department in the past.

The art is highly competitive and certain clubs have attained a high degree of prestige through their performances.

Although she was unable to provide more details, Drennan said the case is also connected to a l998 investigation involving another lion dancer.

The dancer was charged with assaulting a member of a competing club.

Phew...Im just glad I don't lion dance for a huge group like that.

I hope this doesn't reflect an overall policy of the YKM. Perhaps groups in general, will feel threatened once a lion dancer acheives a high skill level and wishes move on, that the lion dancer may join rival groups or may form a group of their own.

Are lion dancing skills so sacred?

Dr. Doong Chang

The YKM in San Francisco is only associated with the YKM of Hong Kong. I don't they think they have any connections with YKM in vancouver. I heard that a small number of the Hong Kong groups are associated with gangs and stuff. I'm not totally sure but I had friend that helped out White Crane a few times in SF and he told me that they had some kind of association with gangs and triads. but I can't confirm any of this

Albert Le

Leung's White Crane school is associated with the Hop Sing Tong in San Francisco. Hop Sing always seem to have a group of bad boys hanging around there.

Dr. Chang

Thanks for reminding us that there can also be a "dark side" of lion dancing. Sad. Here is my understanding of the situation, please correct me if I'm wrong:

There are many lion dance groups that started from family associations, village associations, political associations, etc. These are often wrongly associated with gangs, or the criminal activities of some of these associations. The word "tong" in Chinese is most often translated "association" and in the history of the Chinese in America these associations were created for protection of the new immigrants and to help them to transition to life in a new country. Over time some of these associations developed into corrupt organizations and criminal enterprises. This is the basis of the "tong wars" in San Francisco and New York's Chinatowns. Just want to emphasize though that not every "tong" is a gang.

There is also the matter of the "Hui Guan" and "Hung" groups. Many of these groups can trace their roots to groups created by anti-Ching dynasty revolutionaries to help their movement in China and even back to the destruction of the Shaolin Temple. The lion dance was used to train soldiers in secret and to pass messages between groups of revolutionaries. After the restoration of the Ming dynasty there was this vast network of trained fighters with a whole underground organization that didn't know what to do with itself. The power structure was already in place and it was an easy step to convert it for the formation of the Triads or "Chinese Mafia." Again, not all groups, or even all the people in some groups, were involved in this.

The "Kuo Ming Tang" group has similar roots, being founded by Dr. Sun Yat Sen for support of his revolution.

While these are a part of history and should be acknowleged, I think that for the most part the modern generations of lion dancers are not involved in this. Leung's White Crane, Yau Kung Moon, the Jung Wah Associations, and other groups that have been around for a long time may have ties to questionable groups but that should not automatically paint them as "bad."

Nowadays there is a rise in Asian gangs, especially among immigrant groups. I think that Lion Dancing can be used to prevent this. The Lion Dance can give them a sense of pride in being Asian, and something constructive to do. Immigrant rights groups, churches, service centers, etc. could use this as a means of outreach and in turn help the immigrants adjust to life here. This is what the tongs were created for in the first place.

I would encourage everyone to learn their group's history, but also think about what your group means now and what it can do for today's society.

Thanks for listening,

Chris

Duc,

Great job on the search script! I want everyone to know how much I appreciate your hard work on this. There is a site at http://www.wsabstract.com/script/cutindex14.shtml that has a list of different javascript search engines (including separate ones for Netscape and IE), but they only seem to work with returning whole pages not individual messages. Maybe this will give you a hint as to the problem in Netscape.

I understand your concern over the length of time the script would take to search the whole archive. Is it possible to write a separate script for each year of the archive? This would be less convenient, but should be quicker. It could be loaded onto the archive page under each year as it is now. That way visitors could browse the archive in html as well as search for specific messages.

To everyone:
I'm still missing archives from March 12 to May 1, 1998 and August 4 to October 15, 1998. somebody out there must have at least some of them, so please, if you have any messages from the list during that time send them to me so I can add them in. Thanks!

Chris

In a message dated 4/26/00 12:09:54 PM, chrislow@fuller.edu writes:
>After the restoration of the Ming dynasty there was this vast network of
>trained fighters with a whole underground organization that didn't know
>what to do with itself.

A correction......the Ming dynasty was never restored.

There is no doubt that there are some associations or tongs in the Chinese community have been tied to criminal or gang activities, ie: gambling.

True, many Chinese community lion dance groups have their start and support from family associations and tongs. They are used to lion dance during the new year and other activities. Of course these lion dance groups should not be guilty because of association. Not all association or tong members are involved in criminal activities. Although tongs have used young men to enforce their business and politics. Sometimes when I "choi chang" for the tong, which we are associated with, I often wonder about the fineline between extortion and good luck. In the past I have actually seen "gangs" coming out to 'choi chang' with the lion head...I wonder.

Dr. D. Chang