Hi guys,

I too find the back of the head easy to break and it is great to hear so many ideas of fixing it! Unfortunately a sturdy head usually means heavier heads! I find that lion heads is becoming more fragile as it is getting lighter, as it is better to do stunts with a lighter head. Unfortunately it is not yet feasible to use high-tech materials(eg. composites)as it will make the lion heads too expensives. I guess the trend of lighter, and more fragile lion head follows the trend of increasing popularity of 'pole competition style'lion dance.

In my group we usually 'use up' a lion's life in 2 years, ie. by then it will be too tattered and dirty to be used for anything except training. Our major problem is the soiling of our lion head's fur(on the eye brows and mouth)as we used then to go choy cheng in the new year. In out weather hands tend to get very dirty and not many dancers will wipe their hands everytime they touch the lions when there is at least 12 performances a day for 3 days! So I would like to know any suggestion on how to clean the fur(preferably not having to tear it down first)?

George,
Malaysia

P/S: Willy, I'll reply your mail next week. Sorry!

Are you sure it's HKD? If I remember right (and I may not), Pak Wan's lions were really expensive. $1800 US sounds about right. If you saw the painting and workmanship, you'd understand why.

Also, we use cheap heads from fat shan and have NEVER broken the back. As some others have said, it's a control issue. Master Siow talked about this at the seminar.

As for life, we get about 2 years too. We seem to always break the mouth area.

Stephen.

Hi Vela,

So good to hear from somebody over this side of the ocean, especially form Indonesia! Selamat Datang! I have only once heard from a group in Indonesia and they were suppose to compete in Genting Highlands, Malaysia 2 years ago. They didn't make it as it was a bad time. Maybe this time they will make it.

Anyway, to do chairs and poles you must get your basics right first, ie. your stances and stacks must be stead and well balanced. Always start from low chairs/platform. Never jump off anything high to the floor, ie. from the highest point of your whole routine to the floor, as that is not only dangerous but also illogical in Lion dance as it means that the lion is jumping off a cliff! Jumping down and stay is easier than rolling as jumping down and roll is 2 movements(ie. jumping down and stand, then rolling). Anyway, as for your rest of your questions, my only advice is to practice hard and often.

Hope it is helpful.

George

In a message dated 5/1/00 9:57:05 AM, Stephen.Chew@broadvision.com writes:
>We seem to always break the mouth area.

That seems to be the area the breaks first for us too. With a new head we usually reinforce that first with regular good ol'packaging tape. Kind of tacky but works. I highly recommend everyone reinforce that part first. Any other suggestions on reinforcing the underside of the mouth?

As for the back of lion heads breaking. I guess some dancers think that the cushion is to support the head. It shouldn't be. Rather it's just a cushion so that when the back of the head does come in contact with the dancer's head it doesn't come in contact with the frame and thin paper mache. The majority of the time, the bamboo base hoop should be resting of the back of the neck and shoulder. The hands should not be pushing the front part of the head forward so hard as to put too much pressure on the cushion and frame. This point should be emphasized when learning and training to preserve our "works of art" as what Sifu Siow calls it.

Rolling on the floor the wrong way can really mess up the back too. When rolling, the head should not touch the ground, rather the dancers shoulder only touches the ground. This can be done by tucking in more while rolling.

Dr. D. Chang

Hi Geoff,

Here is a good spot for that:

http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/liondance/liontypes.html

It has an impage for Northern Lion, Hoc San Lion, and a Fat-Hoc lion.

Hope that helps.

Vo Minh Duc

Well my old lion doesn't seem to break very much especially around the back or frame sections of the head. The mouth has broken and I used heavy plastic pull ties and epoxy to fix that, My new lion breaks every time it hits the ground and I constantly get after the team about extending their arms upward when they roll. So to keep the destructiuon down my newer team that doesn't roll gets the weaker lion.

The back section had to be completely be reattached aftet this new year. I took off the pad fron the inside, replaced and reinforced the frame spars that supported the back of the head then covered that entire interior with a thick white builders glue and let it dry. We the sprayed it with that stone spray and let it dry. I then glued the outside skin back together and replaced the pad inside by using contact cement and plastic pull ties to hold it in place. Until it is really dry and aired out it is a toxic environment so I don't let anyone use the head until I'm sure it's safe. My wife also makes new bodies for the lions as well as costumes for the dancers and also dragon dancing.

Bruce

Hey guys,

On Jimmy Wong's lion dance site, I believe that what they call the Fat-Hok is really the Fat Shan (according to George). The Fat-Hok has the straight mouth and non-slanted back of head. The teams from Kota Tinggi Malaysia, Hong Kong (green), and Long Tian Singapore used the Fat-Hok in 1998.

Willy

ps - I'll be waiting, George! :)

Packaging tape works for a while. But it tends to 'bunch up' and peel off after a few shows, so I try to stay away from it unless absolutely necessary.

I like to use the method I described earlier for repairing holes. Take decoupage glue and use it to paste strips of white chiffon onto the underside of the mouth. It doesn't have to be a perfect job since the beard covers that part and the head is usually tilted downwards. But anyway, let it dry and repaint the surface. If you put on two layers, it is almost rock hard. Use acrylic sealer to make it waterproof. The finished product is not that smooth, but it will be virtually indestructable. A good paint job would mask most imperfections. I am thinking of taking either chrome or 18k gold Krylon spray paint (or any spray paint) as a base coat whenever doing a new repair/paint job. After that, add new details and decorations. It should turn out nicely - I'll let you all know.

The Loong Mah group in SF has some good tips for preserving your heads, too. If the rim for your head is bamboo (and not aluminum like Master Siow's heads) use duct tape and reinforce the rim before you ever dance with it. That will prevent it from breaking. A problem spot is the joint to the mouth area. Reinforce that part well. I find that the joints to the mouth may need very thin strips of chiffon and decoupage wrapped around the joint area. That should work well. It's better than nothing!

Willy

Hi Guys,

The many comments on how to control the head are very useful. Thank you. I have a few comments about the follow suggestions:

Jason:
>>Or they press their heads against it to gain control of the head
>>while dancing. How do you guys get around this?
> I find that to gain more control, let the the whole head cover your
>shoulders. This way, if you move you body, the head moves with it. This
>saves energy and stength in your arms."

I thought Master Siow said to only get the rim of the Head rest on your shoulder....by the neck. Are you saying to have the "whole head cover your shoulders" every time you dance low? My team used to dance that way it looks very rigid/stiff and not flexible. I also found to have very little control of the head that way...but by resting the rim on the shoulder gives me more control of the head movemen.

Vo Minh Duc

>Also, we use cheap heads from fat shan and have NEVER broken the back.
>As some others have said, it's a control issue. Master Siow talked about
>this at the seminar.
>As for life, we get about 2 years too. We seem to always break the
>mouth area.

Yeah, We've had thoes cheapie heads from the fat san factory. We've never broken the back of the head. The only problem we ever had was the paper cracking and chipping off the head. Also the mouth area. It doesn't seem to be strong enough, the paper seems to get soggy really easily and rip. Now we've learned to reinforce thoes parts before we start using them.

Hi guys,

When your tails get durty, how do you clean it? Does drying cleaning work? What method do you use to clean up your tails? Some time after dancing in the rain or snow, the tail got wet...then it got stuff into the head when the dance is over and untill th enext dance...they tend to smell. Have any of you experience this?

Vo Minh Duc

Please see below..

On Mon, 1 May 2000 willyle@juno.com wrote:
>>>We seem to always break the mouth area.
>>That seems to be the area the breaks first for us too. With a new
>>head we usually reinforce that first with regular good ol'packaging tape.
>>Kind of tacky but works. I highly recommend everyone reinforce that part
>>first.

I also found the tape to peel and become sticky after a while. Will the sealer work on clear tape surface? Meaning, after I had taped the mouth piece, will the sealer stick on smooth surface of the tape? Again, I am trying to reinforcing the materials as much as possible without ruining the orignal art work as possible.

> > other suggestions on reinforcing the underside of the mouth?
> Packaging tape works for a while. But it tends to 'bunch up' and peel
> off after a few shows, so I try to stay away from it unless absolutely
> necessary.
> I like to use the method I described earlier for repairing holes. Take
> decoupage glue and use it to paste strips of white chiffon onto the

What is a Chiffon and what does it look like?

> The Loong Mah group in SF has some good tips for preserving your heads,
> too. If the rim for your head is bamboo (and not aluminum like Master
> Siow's heads) use duct tape and reinforce the rim before you ever dance
> with it. That will prevent it from breaking. A problem spot is the
> joint to the mouth area. Reinforce that part well. I find that the
> joints to the mouth may need very thin strips of chiffon and decoupage
> wrapped around the joint area. That should work well. It's better than
> nothing!

I had found another method of strengthening the bamboo ring of the Lion Head....I found that by using the 'skid plate' (I guest that's what it's call). You can find these at any hardware store that sales carpet: Home Depot and Eagles have it. It's a piece of alluminum that is use at places where the carpet and the floor meet. Since it is illuminum, it can be bend and curve along the bamboo ring. Then us string or fabric to wrap it in. It will add a little bit of extra weight to the head though.

While we're on the topic of the rim of the head, how do you prevent the rim and the head from comming apart? I have found the spot by the mouth piece (and on both side of the mouth) to come off pretty easily. My very first team had this happening. Toward the last stretch of a performance along 38th St. in Tacoma (1992), the head become detatch from the rim. The only part that still sticks to the head was the bamboo sticks that runs down from the head that got tied to the rim. Our leader had me go in and do the sleep while they try to tie it up temporarily so that we can finish the dance (the last part of a one hour show...going to store by store during New Year of 1992.)

Have fun fixing the heads...it can save the team a lot of money! :-)

Duc Vo

Probably for Pak Wan it is US dollars, but if you would read in the reviews of Hong Kong Shops, at least one of the shops used HKD and the guy that went to hong kong said one of the store was selling lion heads for 2000 dollars and he clearly said Hong Kong currency.

Albert Le

WE use foil to reinforce the mouth. They seem to hold pretty well. Our mouths are pretty sturdy.

S

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the hints you guys have given on this topic. They are very helpful.

To Willy: "Just cut the strips, and paste the glue right on with any brush. Let it dry and
paint it over. One layer of fabric will usually do. Very easy! The
real secret is the acrylic sealer that you spray on at the end, which
will protect it from moisture and humidity. Also gives it a glossy shine."

Since we do not have any artist among the team to repaint it...we must do it from the inside. A question about the sealer, do you spray it on the inside and the out side too to protect it from moisture and humidity? But your idea seems to be a simple process. I had thought of applying it with fabric but I did not because I do not know what glue will do the job. Thanks for the info!

Sherman Wong: Where do you find the "surfboard or sailboat resin"? Also where can you find the fiberglass materials?

Like George (Malaysia) said, adding more things to the head makes it heavier. I guest that's the price to pay for a referbish lion heads, right? :-) How heavy are the stiff foam after it dry? We also use roughly 2 years per head.....recently, applying the more gentle movements and protrecting the heads, one of our lion is going to make it for the third year. :-) With some of these reinforcements we've been talking about, it might even last longer.

Lastly, about the mouth piece: We use clear tape to tape it. We apply about two layers of clear tape on the top and botton side of it. Taking the beard off will helps in this process. I found that taping the mouth piece helped from breaking it. Especially the left hand side because that's where the head player use to control the mouth (Left holding the mouth piece and Right Hand holds the right bar).

-About th mouth piece, does anyone know of a good substution for the beard? I can't seem to find a replacement for. Our older Lion seem to have lost half of the beard already. I can't order it because no one sells it separately and I can't seem to find the materials for it either. Any ideas? (The beard of a Fat Shan lion, not the foamy ones like the Hock shan.)

Thanks again for all the comments and suggestions!

Vo Minh Duc

>epoxy to fix that, My new lion breaks every time it hits the ground

hmm... Iwonder why?? :) just kidding.

>get after the team about extending their arms upward when they roll. So to keep the
>destructiuon down my newer team that doesn't roll gets the weaker lion.

Yeah, I find the best thing to do when rolling is, rest the rim of the back od the head on the base of your neck. That way if you hunch your back, it sticks out furthur than the back of the lion head. So when you rool, the part that's touching the ground is your back and shoulders.

Jason

Hi willy and Dr. chang

good post and info.........I think the hot ticket for northen lion music is adding the two gongs.

one small and another large.. thease gongs are the thin brass ones with a flat center and are hit with a soft mallet or a flat stick the size of a ruler. you hit the gong with the edge of the taperd ruler. They use this type of gong in the chinese opera. Double sided skin drums or the flower pot drum .( wide head on top and small on the bottom. double skinned) Double skinned drums have a fuller sound than the souther lion drum.

but sorry willy. i never played the music or seen it written down it could be our groups next project..( YRD) We did a show with a Vietnam group from San Jose who played some nice nothern music. There group is callled ( ying Hung) they added a small hi piched drum 12 inch head and about two feet in length(double skinned) and the dock dock block and high piched dock for the opera. At first i thought it was taped music but it was live.

Dr. Hu book says : classic northern LIon music has a flute and erh hu ( two stringed fiddle) playing with the drums and gongs. I would like to see that on the western shores.

The other instrument that is neat is the small one use in the opera.. only 12 inches wide and around 8 inche high. it is covered with a thick skin and has a large wood interior. the hitting surfice only has a 3 inch hole in the center.. you have to hit center with a think chopstick sized drum stick to get the hi picked dock sound.

Hi Albert,

When I went to the "China" store. (Yue Wah) I could get a very nice looking lion for 1800 HKD. (No pants) These were the cheap fat shan ones. They looked good but compared to Pak Wan lions, you could tell the difference. Was it worth the huge difference? Maybe. Pak Wan lions were made one at a time by a craftsman. The Fat shan lion was massed produced in a factory.

It's probably why Pak Wan went out of business.

Stephen

Hi,

I don't think cry cleaning would work...well, depends on how your tail looks like... if it's the older ones where you've got bells, fur and thoes little metal plates on the tail... try using a steam garment cleaner. I guess you can always ask the dry cleaner to see how they can help. Thing is... I'd probably feel a bit wierd bringing that in.. heheheh. For the smell inside the head, you can always disinfect it with Lysol disinfectant spray, it'll kill the bacteria. For the smell in the tail, try using "Febreze". If you ever seen the comercial it says that it'll eliminate the smell. It works, it doesn't mask the smell or anything, I followed the instructions and it doesn't smell anymore.

Jason

Hi Jason,

Interesting info...now, where can you find these products?

Vo Minh Duc

It's hard to sit by and read about Pak Wan without saying anything. I've been a loyal customer of theirs since the mid-80s. Recently, the Moks have been hit with an unbelievable string of bad luck (events beyond their control). One of the worst was the passing of their very good friend and master who worked with them for many years.

In Hong Kong, one can buy lion heads made in China for pretty low prices by US standards. There, one can also buy custom-made lion heads at prices we would consider extremely expensive. Pak Wan and other small companies in Hong Kong make those kinds of lions. Like Stephen says, unless one actually sees up close the two levels of workmanship that go into less and more expensive lion heads, one might not easily tell the difference.

My good friend at Pak Wan tells me that when people like a certain manufacturers' lions, it's very difficult for another maker to take their business away.

If price is a concern in buying a head, Pak Wan is not the first place to go looking for a head. If top-level enamel paints, bold beautiful and confident brush strokes, perfect silk balls made in Hong Kong, high quality brocade fabrics, and your school's proud name in exquisite calligraphy are worth anything, then Pak Wan is one of the finest 'expensive' places to consider.

I'd be glad to pay the higher price any day. Sooner or later the money will come back. But will places like Pak Wan when they are no longer found?

Also consider the cost of living in Hong Kong vs China. How much time it took for the fewer and fewer living masters to learn their craft. How quickly a team of performers can earn the cost of an expensive lion in their regular jobs. How long it would take you to make something that meaningful out of nothing. Would YOU give up so much of your life to perfect a craft that hardly paid anything close to what it was worth?

That's why hardly any young people in China and especially Hong Kong aspire to master the art of making lions. That's why lions made by older masters are so expensive.

I'm not at liberty to say why Pak Wan is not currently taking on or soliciting new business. Their shop can't be found at their old Boundary Street address. I sincerely hope that they and other craftsmen who make lions the old-fashioned heavy expensive way can stay in business and provide all of us lion dancers with a variety of different looking works of art in a range of prices that work for everyone.

Think about that the next time you want to bargain a few dollars off the price of a new lion. A few dollars to us is a snack and a movie. A few of our dollars to the people that make lions is survival. Let's give them the respect they deserve.

Corey

Dude!
Lysol and Febreze?? You've been in school too long. Any grocery store will have it.

g

Hi,

The garment cleaner you can usualy rent from the dry cleaner... and the febreze you can buy at any pharmacy in the household section.

Jason

Thanks Geoff,

I guess I have been in school for too long! hihi :-) I still have 2 more years of college to go (a total of 6!).

Vo Minh Duc

Well Si Si and Jason,

Does your lion's mouth piece become loose at the lip area? The part that fold up from the mouth....on a Fat San lion. Ours seems to be stable now with the help of tape around the flat part of the mouth....but it seems to become loose at the chin up toward the lip of the mouth piece. Even though I taped that area too, it just seem to wiggle and become unstable. I had become almost flatten out with the rest of the mouth. How do you guys get it to stay up? I found the it to be loosening at the joint (the are where the fold up part meets the flat part of the mouth piece.) Is there a way to strenghten that area?

Vo Minh Duc

Thanks Jason,

I will look from them and try them out.....Update on my experience latter!

Vo Minh Duc

Thanks Jason,

I will look from them and try them out.....Update on my experience latter!

Vo Minh Duc