Hi ,

Master Siow's lion head set(incls. tail & 2 pairs to matching pants) comes in 2 adult sizes and 1 kid size for both Hock Shan and Fatt Shan lions. The 2 adult sizes are of the same prize, and the prizes varies between type. The rough prizes are:

Normal Cloured - US$ 400
Normal Silver/Gold - US$ 500
'Lazer'(Sequence) Coloured - US$ 600

These prices does NOT include freight charges. For custom made lion the prize will be depended on the design and Master Siow. The best way to contact master Siow is by his hand phone, then the fax. You will have to keep following up your faxes as he is a busy and slightly :) unorganized man.

Hope the above is helpful.

George Chan

Hi all,

Master Siow's lion is not 'trade mark' as such, I prefer to call it his style. The nose pattern is right , and is in a shape of a V is the Fatt Shan Lion and pallarel lines in the Hock Shan Lion, but some newer Hock Shan has the V too. It depends on the painter. However, I think the thing that differentiates his lions is the aluminium parts, the base and the support 'arc' at the mouth. The base is not visible as it is warped in cloth. Another thing is the fur. The 'fur' he used for the moustage and the eyelids(sometimes the tail) are made from New Zealand sheep skins and I have yet to see anything better on other lions.

As for lacquering the lion, all the lion heads are actually lacquered (except for the 'neon' lions), and re-lacquering is seldom done here as it weighs down the lion head. I think it might be best if you just reinforced certain weak oints or repair them as they come along. Tearing down all the fur might damage the fur and the paper surface on the lion head

Regards,

George

Hi Maung,

>I am wondering if there are anyone who has some knowledge about commuting
>in Malaysia. What would be a suitable route(bus,LRT,etc.) between
>chinatown(KL) and Master Siow's place(PJ) for a budget conscious traveller?
Master Siow's shop has moved to Subang and no longer in PJ. It is at a pretty isolated area and hard to find. A taxi might be able to find it. So, it might be cheaper to get public transport from KL to Subang Airport and find a Taxi from there. The best way is to ring up Master Siow and arrange for a visit so that he can pick you up(if he is free).

>Also, I am planning to take a look at the Lion Dance equipment and wondering
>if there are any ready-made liondance shoes with claws available in KL area.

There are no claws available as they are too labour intensive to be commercially viable. All the claws here are made by the lion groups themselved (and it is actually not too difficult to make).

Anyway, if you are keen, I will be at Genting during the champs and we might have a small get together. Vela and Greg will be there too. My Hand phone no. is 010-8136384. Be warn though that reception is pretty bad there. You can still ring me on the 10-11 July as I will around the KL/PJ/Subang area.

Regards,

George

> how does one subscribe to this list? i want to let other lion dancers know.
You send an email to 'majordomo@freud.et.tudelft.nl' with message body content 'subscribe liondance' or 'unsubscribe liondance' depending on what you wish to do.

Just a thought.. would anybody be interested in making some kind of site for this liondance mailinglist? Perhaps with some easy registration forms, etc and some general info on lion dancing..

Regards,

Serhat Sakarya

I've come across several websites which includes lion dancing "clubs" which includes a message board and a photo album site. I've made several attempts to post the info through this mailing list to no avail. It's under the Yahoo club for liondance and another one for southern lion dance. I don't know who runs those groups though whether they're a part of this list or not.

-Jj

To no avail in which regard? Your messages got bounced? Did you use the same 'from' email address as you used to register to the list?

Regards,

Serhat Sakarya

HeLLo....i will try my best not to use slang and make my spelling correct. BUt i am not good.

Okie....my friend's dad went to HONG KONG...and than went soemwhere else too. ANd he said he went to this lion dance shop and there was this lion head that u can jump on....and it won;t break. Is this TRUE?? he said he ordered some for our group. But i still havnt seen them yet. So i wondering if he is lieing?

thank you

Pk

Hi all,

I'm very busy at work, so I lag a lot on the messages on the list; tanks to Serhat this doesn't matter so much, great work!

About subscribing/unsubscribing:
I have a page up that describes the process at:
http://liondance.free.fr/Lionlist.html

I thought of making it easy to click the lion list address link and subscribe directly, but I thought it better that people really have to read, it's often too easy to click .... also, quite often people are not using their own computer/email address, so that would be a problem too if it the email address is taken automatically..

About kicking spammers off the list:
sofar it hasn't really been necessary to really work up an Anti-Spam policy or police; I largely agree with what Serhat proposed, but for now I think it is very clear when someone is just off topic or really spamming.

Oh yeah, about the definition of 'off-topic',... we could probably discuss a lot about that, but for now I think we can consider any message on-topic as long as it's somewhat connected to lion-dancing, either on the cultural side (opera, whatnot), physical side (how to practise standing on the shoulders), religious side (why three is important, or any other number..), similar dances (dragondance), etc..

Talk later,

Rob "the listmanager who'd be no-where without Serhat" Teng

Ps if any spammers should be busy, either contact Serhat directly, or me at rteng@free.fr

hello....well this have nothin to do wit the spam policy and stuff.....but i readin the topic part of this email....and it said religous side...and 3 lion or watever......hmm....tehre a good luck number or somethin??....i never did know...we usually perform wit 2...4....6...8....or 13...well we did 13 one time....or we do...1 dragon....and 4 lions....or 1 dragon and 1 lion...so can someone please tell me why 3 is an aimportant number??

Kudos to Rob and Serhat for maintaining this site and to Chris and others who got this started.

The Chinese Performing Arts Foundation, San Francisco wishes to explore taking all this information about lion dancing on this site and the web to another level by hiring someone to index, sort and link all these resources and make the information available to all on this site. However, before attempting this, we wish to get comments and suggestions from this list. Since bias is unavoidable when information is index and sorted, should we even mess with this? On the other hand, the raw data will remain as is, but the index and links by subject can help someone find info quicker and easier. What is your wish if you could hire someone to go thru all this information?

If you happen to be in San Francisco before Sept 11, be sure to see The Golden Age of Chinese Archaeology exhibition at the Asian Art Museum. This is a blockbuster show involving objects from over 30 Mainland China museums. Of specific interest to me is the Tang Dynasty marble mural carving of lady musicians recently excavated from Xian. I had always thought Northern drums were closed off on both ends, and that the large open ended (one side) drums were unique to the South and used mainly by lion dancers. But this mural has a large drum on a makeshift platform that tilts the drum off the ground like what we do with our lion dance drums so as not to muffle the sound. No reason to do this if the bottom were closed? Raises new questions about the pervasiveness of open ended drums and its existence in the North. Also interesting and reassuring to see nothing has changed much in a thousand years. On the other hand, why doesn't someone make a drum with this required tilt and with built in locking rollers that can be recessed into the interior of the drum when not used? Pls note however, that the drum is raised on the drummer's side and not the opposite side that is now the common practice. Maybe this tilt of the drum face away from the drummer makes the angle of hitting easier? Or maybe this is the reason for the platform (to make drumming easier) and not to let out the sound or both? I am not a drummer so is difficult for me to conjecture, but would like comments from drummers out there. you can see a picture of this at http://www.nga.gov/exhibitions/chbro_imp.htm you need to scroll down to the third picture to see this Tang dynasty marble mural and the drummer is at the lower left corner. This picture is quite small, but the actual marble piece currently on display at the Asian art Museum is almost the size of an office table top making the details quite easy to see.

for more info about this exhibition in San Francisco, see www.asianart.org

David

I just found out that when you go into http://www.nga.gov/exhibitions/chbro_imp.htm and in the text of the description of this mural, if you click on "no. 175 fig 10" you will see the enlarged photo of this mural. the drummer and the drum stand can be clearly seen.

David

Pk,

I never heard of a lion head that when you jump on it , it does'nt break . But may be there is . It's just that you have'nt seen it yet . So the best thing to do is check it out . That's how you'll probably find out . And let me know the results , you can e - mail me at goldengateone@webtv.net , thanks .

Laine

Hey David,

I saw the exhibit, it was pretty good. I was there that first day working with Mr. THomas during that first day. That event was very hectic. Will there be a event in honor of the closing of the exhibit?

Albert Le

Albert,

No closing event is planned, but there will be an Asian Community Day at the Asian Art Museum this Sunday July 9th thanks to donations made by Corey Chan and Kei Lun Martial Arts, Layton Doung and Yellow River Drummers, Willy Le and Chung Ngai Dance Troupe and Dave Thomas (and you Albert as a volunteer) of East West. All these groups donated their services at the opening gala in June to raise over $300,000 to fund this extraordinary exhibition and Community Day this Sunday. 450 public housing tenants will be bused in for a free picnic and viewing of the exhibit, 400 representatives of over 100 Asian Non profits in the San Francisco Bay Area have been invited for a reception and viewing and 3,000 free passes to the Golden Age of Chinese Archaeology have been passed out by the Chinese Culture Center and the Oakland Asian Cultural Center. I just wish to point out and commend all the lion dance/martial arts groups that do such good work for the community and add excitement to so many public functions.

David

david;

anymore complimentary community day tickets available? us poor folks would love to catch the exhibit.

ddchang

Doc,

try contacting Chinese culture Center and/or Oakland Asian Cultural Center to see if they have any tickets left.

David

Hi I am currently in HK, and I went to the Gung Fu Supply Company that's on the lion cave website yesterday. They are very small, and I didn't see any lion heads. Maybe they were in the back, but I didn't notice any lion dance stuff.

Si Si

Did you go in and ask? Im curious on what they have.

Albert

Sorry I didn't ask because I was there for something else, but I will call them next week to see when they might receive the item I want, so I can ask then. The people there seem very nice but I dont think they are the same people who responds to email inquiries. I will probably go there again before I go back to the US.

Si Si

I was fortunate enough to attend the lion dance conference in SF. As a result, some time last year, Trying to be frugal as possible,I attempted to contact Sifu Siow through his student's email and at the two addresses on his business card. I never received a reply. I've since come to learn, that he's got a new address. To make a long story short I was very upset that with all my efforts I never received a reply. Since then I've ordered Lion dance equipment from someone else in Malaysia.

If you're thinking about having it sent from Malaysia, it's quite expensive and quite a headache. Here's what you have to do:

1. They like you to wire money to their bank accounts in Malaysia. To do this, you not only need their bank account, you also need a corresponding USA bank that is in Malaysia. Something that the people in Malaysia don't seem to be aware of.

The Corresponding Bank is Chase Manhatten, with routing #021000021 You need the usual personal info about the person your sending the money to.

There's a fee for wiring money. My bank charged $40

2. The equipment is sent via boat. It takes about 30 days from time of departure to arrival in the US

The people in Malaysia will take your phone number and a customs broker in the states will call you when your shipment is close to arrival.

3. You should declare your shipment as PERSONAL use. You can do your customs paperwork yourself or have a customs broker take care of it for you (saves you the headache). Here's where you start spending more money.

Customs broker fee $120

If you want a broker to do the paperwork, you might have to get a public notary--paperwork saying you are who you say you are--giving the broker permission to act on your behalf.

Banks usually offer public notary for a fee:My bank charged $10

You have other little duties fees to pay, depending on the content of your shipment

Mines was only $7.04

Then there's something called a customs entry bond: Mine was $35

There's also a fee you need to pay for the terminal/company who picked up your shipment from the boat and is holding it for you.

Mine was $35

4. Freight charge for sending two size 1 lionheads, a drum, two pairs of cymbals and a gong from Port Klang in Malaysia was: $398.64

5. At the terminal, where you pick up your package, they will NOT let you take the crate/box apart. You have to take it off their property in it's original packaging.

My shipment came in a very wide, but not too deep square crate. It could not sit horizontally flat in a toyota pickup. Luckily lionheads are fairly light and we angled the box into the pickup bed.

I paid $10 to tear the crate apart and dump the wood at a recycle place that was across the street from the terminal.

So there you have it. I spent a wopping total of $3,205 bucks to get Malaysian Lion dance equipment. I suspect I may have been overcharged at the onset by the seller in Malaysia. Do the math if you're curious how much it cost before all the shipping.

The lionheads are very nice. A little bit different from the picture on the web advertisement. And in my opinion, NOT as nice as Sifu Siows.

The drum I received is actually from Sifu Siow's company--Wan seng heng.

Oh well, what was it again, "Caveat .....something" Let the buyer beware.

Here's two #'s I got from the liondance conference for contacting Sifu Siow

6037464891Home/fax
60123346458 cell phone

They like for you to call them on their cell phones even though it's a bad connection. I never realized you can call international on cell phones.

I'd still like to get one of Sifu Siow's lions. That's how good I think they are.

Some people just never learn...........

Funny thing is , ..........I don't even know how to lion dance.

But sure as hell wanna' learn

Long email wasn't it......

The end

Perry

I teach a kid's hung gar club and they are saving up for a lion--How much do they cost in HK?

not sure, but I am in HK now, so I wil check and email the list. I have seen them for about $1500 HK dollars, so about US$200.

Si Si

Perry,

Thanks for sharing your story with us and sorry it turned out to be such a headache. I've heard several adventures about people trying to get a hold of Master Siow and I'm kind of afraid to try it myself because I don't speak Chinese! How does the Wan Seng Hang drum sound? Good luck with your future purchases!

Willy

Wow... Thanks for all the info... I'm sure everyone will learn something from it.

Jason

first things first. where are you from? it might be better to get one in the states to save all the hassles of overseas shipping. If you around the bay area, it's best to go to Darwells. you can also try Jonie's Uniform. they have hong kong heads. they do shipping to most places in the U.S

Albert Le

There are many pitfalls involved with importing. Adding to Perry's comments:

if you are buying from China and plan to ship goods back, be sure the person you buy from has an export license to issue the proper receipt to allow you to export otherwise you will have to "buy" a legal export receipt at the going "market price". China customs will not allow shipment to be exported unless it is accompanied by a legitimate receipt issued by firm that has export license.

if you crate the equipment in a wooden crate, be prepared to get the goods fumigated and get a fumigation certificate for U.S. customs entry. If you do not have the time to pick up the goods from the piers, local trucking will cost you around $100 to $150. If they are large crates, they might even charge you $35 for fork lift usage.

Two years ago a good friend visiting Vietnam on a whim purchased a lion for me saying it was only a $150 gift. The catch was it was still in the shop in Vietnam. Cost me $900 to get it here!

It is better to pay excess baggage charges (normally around $100 per bag/head) and bring the head(s) back with you on the plane. Or send it back by Federal Express or UPS with door to door service (normally $300 to $500 per head depending on where and size/weight of head and what discount you can get from UPS and Fedex). When you calculate UPS and FedEx prices, pls note lion heads are light in weight relative to size so will probably be charged by "size weight" (higher charges) and not the actual weight. If you send by door to door service, be sure you include an invoice showing the purchase price in U.S. dollars describing the goods as either:

"religious regalia for institution" - customs harmonize code 9810.00.1500 - duty free
or
"papier mache mask" - customs harmonize code 4823.90.20 - 1.2% duty rate

If you send by regular air freight, you will still have the hassles and costs with clearing U.S. customs and picking up from the air terminal so I highly suggest door to door service. The down side is risk of transit damages.

David

Hi David,

Went to the Chinese exhibit at the Asian Art. It was nice; was almost a reciprocate exhibit that I saw at the HK Art Museum in Jan '98 for the year-long celebration of HK's return to China.

To clarify what David was saying re: shipments to the US:

Wood crates need to be certified by the US Dept of Agriculture (That's usually US$50-100 extra.) This green document must be with you to clear the items through US Customs.

Excess baggage charge: meaning that you will transport the lion heads as "check-in" luggage. Most airline carriers will MAKE you sign a waiver that they are not responsible for possible damage to your lion heads. Most likely the lion heads will be carted off via "oversize baggage" counter. So you'll have to make 2 stops at for checking in for your flight.

FedEx/UPS: Not all lion head makers have a P.O. to use those couriers, so work out the shipping details before ordering. Some HK makers like to truck the lions across the border into Kwangtung and then ship it off to your destination b/c it's easier for them to fill up a WHOLE shipping container w/lots of stuff. Freight is sold off by volume, not weight.

I've learned the following from personal experience:
1) depending on the airline (inquire before arriving to the airport!!) take the lion to the airport without the cardbox or shipping box and put it in a clear plastic bag (double bag it!). Label the bag clearly in CHINESE and ENGLISH (paper mache lion head, please be careful; ching siu sum see tao)

2) have the airline HAND CARRY the lion to the plane and HAND LOAD!! PERSONALLY observe that it is being done that way so that the heavy, over-size baggage doesn't crush the lion; you won't be allowed to the whole process but at least watch it pass the counter area. Remember-- you've signed the waiver prior to this so now you rolled the dice.

3) some airline carriers may charge a fee for said over-size items. But I've been lucky twice... so far.

4) know your airlines and see which ones will accomodate you. Then patronize them for future travel. It seems to work.....

Where in HK have you seen them for $1500?(What store?) and does it include the pants and stuff?

I don't think they include pants. I just noticed the price tag, and saw only the head. I am not sure if the tail was under the head. It was at Yu Wah. One of those mainland stores. I saw it in the one near the Jordan MTR station on the main street. I think Nathan Road. But that was about a couple years ago, and I haven't been there this time yet.

Si Si