Whoa, hold on here, guys. Jason, I do not believe that Wes is trying to change the Chinese language (and I hope that you kindly apologize for that last dig). It is obvious that you are more knowledgable than him in Chinese terms, and you and your aunt are probably correct in the meaning of Lo Fan. But regardless if a person's intentions are harmless or not (something Geoff brought up), that does not change the fact that someone can still take offense to it.

Now I know that Geoff said that people should not take offense to the term itself, but its context, and I do agree. Friends can kid around with each other and say whatever they want because there is an understanding there. But Wes is not a close friend of any of you guys, and we must respect the fact that he does take offense to the terms people use. It doesn't matter if he 'should' not take offense, the point is that he does. So let's all be mature, friendly people here and accomodate Wes and anyone else who might have a problem with the terminology used here.

I don't think it's too much to ask to use white or Caucasian when that's what you want to say. Since this list communicates in English anyway, Lo Fan or Gwai Lo might be indeed be innapropriate. For example, the only word for African-Americans in Vietnamese is 'my den' (Black American), and, I only use it when I speak Vietnamese. But if I am communicating in English and I throw in 'my den', (Black American), and, I only use it when I speak Vietnamese. But if I am communicating in English and I throw in 'my den', it takes on a whole other meaning (derogatory). So please, even though it may seem trivial to Chinese speakers, let's try to be more sensitive to everyone here.

Willy

This might also seem trivial but I just remembered something from a linguistics class I took. Languages evolve, and certain words and phrases die out as the sociological conditions of their use change. That is why terms like 'jigaboo', 'negro', 'mongol' (for Asian), 'colored', 'chinaman', and yes, 'oriental' (meaning 'east', but east is only in relation to Europe) have been phased out in the US within the last 30-40 years. As people and society change, so do the languages. So even if 'Lo Fan' or 'Gwai Lo' or anything else are 'technically' acceptable when you ask Chinese scholars, historians, and linguists, perhaps a sociologist might say otherwise.

Willy

Hi Willy, Jason and Geoff,

Well, Jason and Geoff, did you ask for the literal translation for the term Lo Fan? My Chinese friends who are between 45 to 60 years of age have all advised me in the past that the term means white rice and that it is not a polite term to use. Now I am certainly not expert on the Cantonese Chinese dialect, so I take the advise of my old friends who are. I thank Willy for his kind response and perhaps he is right in that the use of the term has taken on a new meaning and perhaps he is also correct from the sociological perspective. I have heard some Chinese say that the use of Gwei Lo at one time was very derogatory, but is not now and is used to refer to Non-Chinese, while I have heard others say that it is still derogatory. Perhaps it is the same with Lo Fan? I think that use of the term Non-Chinese is not too vague - it all depends on the conversation taking place...most times it will suffice...the same as most times 'Chinese' will suffice instead of getting specific as to Cantonese or Toisanese or Hakka, etc. Jason, I think it is great that you know four languages, but I do not see what that has to do with the use of the term under discussion and I am certainly not trying to change anything, just voicing a concern (besides - no one can change another persons use of any language, rather they can only change their own use)! Geoff, I do not have any hard feelings...just stated what you yourself said - ranting, traffic, college - and it sounded to me like you were sure angry and not just voicing an opinion...and thanks for the invite - but I'll take a Gingerale or Pepsi, Thanks!... if you are ever in Winnipeg, please drop down to my Kwoon for a friendly visit and some Lion Dancing (and a beer if I can find one). What else can I say, I have my knowledge and perspective from my old friends and you have yours! I do know that if there was any ambiguity about any term I was using for a Chinese or Vietnamese person and that person took polite or otherwise, exception to it, I would most certainly apologize and explain I mean't not harm and would not use it again. Now Jason and Geoff - you have both stated (but not in such a polite way) that you do not use the term Lo Fan in any nasty way - fine I accept that, but as Willy stated, I still have my view of it (based on what my old friends have said of it)and as I stated and as Willy stated - who is right... your friends or mine...and who can prove theirs is the correct one...I can only say - look at the literal translation for the term and perhaps at it's historical use. If I am right about the term, then I am right and hopefully, it will not be used any longer...on the other hand if I am wrong...then I will try to change my view of it - but as I said...look to the literal translation and historical use of it.

This is my last post regarding this subject...as I do not like to argue or receive nasty posts...that is why I do not go to other sites.

Wishing you all the best in Lion Dancing!

"Kam" Wes Cameron

Hm....wut bout the Gwei low callin us chiense CHING CHONG and stuff huh??...aint that racist??...or slanted eyes people...aint that racist??...so sotp sayin we have racist name for yall..yall do too...okie...blah i dont kare if im off the topic...but stop sayin we call u racist name..cuz yall gwei low call us racist names too..=)

latez

Pk

Darn! I was up in the Bay area this weekend and forgot the streetfest was going on! Just flew out of Oakland this morning, too...

Anyways, keep us up to date on the Marina position and how the club is getting along--my cousin goes to Marina and may be interested in joining. A lot of her friends are in White Crane and she's been thinking about geting into lion dancing.

Regarding the language thing: I admit to being one of the people who use lo fan on a pretty regular basis. I sincerely apologize if I've offended anyone by using it, that was not my intention at all.

Please allow me to explain my philosophy behind why I use the term. To me Chinese language depends more on voice tone and inflection than most other languages. For instance I can tell someone quietly to "mo cho" and mean "please keep it down" or I could bug my eyes out, turn red in the face and scream at the top of my lungs "MO CHO!" and mean "Shut the #*%^ up!"

Being Chinese American I don't speak Chinese as my primary language, but certain words and terms stick out as *THE* words I was taught for certain things. In this "Chinglish" dialecct lo fan is the equavalent of saying "White." It's hard to use "caucasian" in a derogatory way, but "White" can be used politely or derogatorily. Same with Lo Fan.

That's me, but I suspect it also goes for others as well. Wes, thank you for your last post--it takes sensitivity and wisdom to breech a topic like this. I've been in too many meetings where things like this just end up being a name-calling, "you're more biggotted than I am" brawl where deep down both sides are saying the same thing but their state of mind and way of looking at things won't allow either to see it. This list is not for things like that.

For your sake and the sake of others who may be offended at how I say things I will try to watch what I put into print, but lo fan really is the first thing that pops into my head when I think of Caucasians so forgive me if I slip.

Take care y'all (can we go on to some lion dancing topics now?),

Chris

Uh, Pk this is exactly his point. Racist words should not be used by any group against the other. If you say that you use 'gwei low' ONLY because other groups use racist words, does that mean it's ok for you to use 'gwei low' if you know it insults others? No, it does not. After all, Wes has not personally called anyone on this list 'ching chong' or 'slant eye', so how can you say that you can call him 'gwei low' (or anyone else) when you admit that it can be insulting? Remember, Pk, it's better to do the right thing rather than justify what you do wrong.

I hope this topic is put to rest. Although I like political/social discussions, this kind of stuff doesn't belong on this list (although it should be discussed elsewhere! =) I know that we should give Jason his chance for rebuttal in fairness, so we should respect whatever other opinions he might voice. But hopefully we can all pull through this in true lion dancing spirit.

Willy

One last thing, I don't know if people in general are this picky, but I just want to say sorry to Sifu Cameron for calling you Wes! It won't happen again! =) You studied and worked hard for your title, you deserve to be addressed as such. I know you're a modest guy but I just think these kinds of titles liven up this world of ours. It'd just be weird for me to call Dr. William Hu by 'Willy'! Hahaha.

Willy

Good point... I think the titles should definitely be preserved, but I have noticed that sometimes they are misused. For example, I have seen an incident where a student has earned the title of sifu, and his si dai's and si mui's who have been calling him sihing will now have to call him sifu because of his new status. I dont think that is right. the sihing, si dai, si mui relationship is always preserved no matter what status or level a person has reached. Do you guys know what I am trying to say here? I dont think I have explained it too well. Have you seen this done here because I have, and it really annoys me. Once a person has earned the title of sifu, he should still be called sihing or si je by his si dai and si mui. Only when he is referred to by people outside of his school and when he gets his own students should he be referred to as sifu. Let me know. Sorry this isn;t about lion dance, but I am curious as to if this mix up in the titles exists elsewhere.

Si Si

While we're on this subject, what qualifies a person as a sifu? Unwavering support, leadership skills, ability, seniority?

Kam,

No, no, no... Don't get me wrong or anything. My comments weren't meant to be a slam, insult or a put down. I'm just saying that, that "lo fan" is the only term I'm awear of of calling a Cauasian person.

Jason

P.S.
The literal translation of "lo fan" Isn't white rice... White rice would be, "bak fan".

At my school, my sifu decides who is qualified to be sifu. As to what qualifications he looks for, I think he looks for leadership skills, a good knowledge of gung fu, and loyalty to the school. There could be more but those are what I think is most important.

SI Si

Hi All,

Here is a question to those who went to the Oakland Competition that someone mentioned last week or so...:

How did it went? What's the skill level of the teams? How are the performances? Who won?

Does anyone want to share their experience with us?

Thanks a lot...hope to get an update from someone.

Vo Minh Duc

I have a friend in white crane and a friend in Jing Mo that is always being borrowed by white crane due to lack of bodies sometimes. Man does anybody have info about the streetfeast on what happen?

Albert Le

First things first...Chris we keep missing each other...I spent the entire summer in your neck of the woods and returned to the Bay Area in time for the Oakland Streetfest. We missed each other again...Secondly, here's the results for the Oakland Competition:

3rd: Oakland AYSC
2nd: O Mei Academy
1st: Marin Culture Center

AYSC included wood breaking and live goldfish with their performance. O Mei had a lion tamer w/o the "Buddhahead" mask doing Wushu with the pair of lions. Marin used the inverted containers(duck egg) for their puzzle. I believe that Oakland wanted a "floor only" show,(someone correct me if I'm wrong) so hence, the competition did not utilized the international competition standards. I also believe that there was an age limit for this event. Congrats goes out to all three competitors for doing an outstanding job.

-Jj

You know. it's kind of funnny.... I was just telling my sifu what a nice, flame-free list this was, and then I come home to this. Sigh.

My observation is that the posts on this list have been very constructive and friendly, and nothing has been said in a way that could reasonably be construed as derogatory. I myself am a haupa haole, hawaiian slang for half white (okay, well I'm not really even half white, but close enough for the islands! :-) ) that could be considered derogatory, and especially haole could be as well. But context is everything. Somebody could call me a haupa in one way, and it would be an insult. They could call me a haupa in another way, and it would be fine... friendly or neutral.

I think that is is clear that no insult was meant by the use of the word lo fan, and therefore none should have been taken. No need to find a problem where none in fact exists. Asian words will be thrown in from time to time, and that should not be discouraged. After all, Lion dancing came from China, and became popular in East Asia.

So let's not make a mountain out of a molehill. However, if something like this does come up, and it bothers you so much that you feel you have to say something, may I suggest the parties take it up in private email? That way the list stays within the subject for which it was created.

So, getting back to lion dancing....

Christopher Yau Choy Young

>because of his new status. I dont think that is right. the sihing, si dai,
>si mui relationship is always preserved no matter what status or level a
>person has reached. Do you guys know what I am trying to say here?

Yes, I know what you mean. It's all relative. So even though one of my kung fu brothers has become a sifu, he is still sihing to me. And I absolutley agree with you. People forget that Kung Fu schools are modeled after families. The titles are seperate from the relationships.

But this is very easy to forget, especially in Pittsburgh where there isn't even a Chinatown.

As far as ow one becomes a sifu, my sifu makes that decision. But he requires passing a pretty extensive test and special training to become a sifu. He also requires the person to be at least 35 years old, so they have at least that much world experience before acquiring that title.

--Chris

I thought that 'sifu' was only taken on by the senior si-hing(s?) when your sifu retires and becomes si-gung. That might be the old fashioned way though. When we were at Lilly Lau's tournament a couple of years ago and I was at the judges meeting, everyone introduced themselves as 'sifu' this or that. I freaked out and told my si-hing that I should maybe leave, and he said that it was just the modern style to call themselves si-hings and that I could call myself a sifu too if I wanted.. but that was too much for me! I don't know for sure, but maybe the modern use of si-fu is equal to 'dai si-hing' (big si-hing) of the old days?

g

Hello All,

PK - You obviously have experienced racism and that is a real shame, but you now promote what has so hurt you. No one race holds a monopoly on racism, it exists in all races towards other races. It is the cause of sorrow, pain, poverty, torture and even death. The only way for racism to end in the World is for each person in the world to either not let it into their Heart or to end it in their Heart. You are only fourteen years old. I am much, much older than you and thus have experienced much more than yourself. You have the choice to either practice war or to practice peace. For your sake and the sake of others -I sincerely hope that you will change.Now I said I would not post further on the subject of Lo Fan, but with the recent posts (such as from PK) I find I must make one more - but it is most definitely my last.

Jason - you are correct, the literal translation for Lo Fan is not white rice, what I was told is that the rice used in China is white, therefore when Lo Fan is used it means rice person. the white is implied due to the fact of rice being used in China is white. Now, you know when I first brought this up as seeing the term used in an archive, I thought - these are a bunch of friendly guys, I am sure they did not use it with the meaning I know for it - I will tell them of how I know it and they will probably say - hey, sorry did not mean it like that, can see how it could be interpreted like that though. And that would be the end of it. I hope that with some replies such as Willy's and Chris's, that this is the end of it. Lets please move on.

Willy, Most people who know me and my Kwoon in Chinatown, when meeting me on the street, call me Si Fu. That is because I contribute towards the building of the community and that is the heritage given to me by my Si Fu to carry on. Other people, when they meet me on the streets of our Chinatown and if they know me well, refer to me as Wes or kam. On this site, since I listed my Kwoon and Lion Dance Team, I initially identified myself as Si Fu of the Kwoon. You are a person who has been taught well and learned correctly - and that goes to your credit as well as to your parents, Si Fu and others.

Si Si - the title of Si Fu (father-teacher) is given by a Si Fu to the person whom He chooses to carry on his art (of Kung Fu or Chinese Martial arts, for in the West the most well known name for Chinese Martial Arts is Kung Fu). Generally, the title of Si Fu is only given to one trusted student (but in some cases to more than one). When the chosen student was learning from his Si Fu, he was to his classmates either their older or younger brother, Si Hing or Si Dai (using the male aspect since that was your question). It is this way because the system is based on the idea of a 'Family'. The students of the person receiving the title of Si Fu would then refer to him (if they are learning from him) as Si Fu and to their Si Fu's teacher as Si Gung (grandfather-teacher). Traditionally, Si Gung is never used in public, outside the Kwoon- maybe this has changed in modern times - I do not know). This is the way it was explained to me by my Si Fu.

Now to get on with Lion Dance - the purpose of this site - are any of you doing any performances, for the Mid-Autumn Moon Festival on September 12? My Lion Dance teacher (retired) has asked for us to do a number of businesses in Chinatown again this year (it can be grueling work, but we love it). We just finished doing a charity performance for the Dragon Boat races here, to raise funds for breast cancer research. We took our fighting Lion as I thought it would be appropriate (fight cancer). Regarding our fighting Lion - my senior student and myself, took an old multicolored Lion that was badly damaged, stripped it down and rebuilt it with the idea of making a Lau Bei Lion. The multicolored Lion originally had a rather fierce look, but it had a white beard and hair. When we finished what we wanted to be a Lau Bei Lion, some of my teachers old friends walked in and said 'Oh, Chang Fei - looks great! I guess it still looked fierce and with the green on the nose and eyes - well, they see it as Chang Fei, even though it has a white (greyish - it's an old Lion Head). So I call it our Lau Bei or Chang Fei Lion - depending on the circumstance. We rebuilt it last year and had the Hoi Gong Ceremony on Canada Day July 1st, to bring the spirit of the Lion Down from Heaven to our new Lion. For parties - we use our Gold Lion - they love it.

Wishing you Great Lion Dancing!

Kam - Wes Cameron

yeah, it annoys me to see a "new" system of titles developing in the US because the students who are learning now loses the really meaning behind the titles. The titles are set up so that the school is like a family. When you enter a school, the person that you call sifu will always be sifu to you and same with the sihing, sije, sidai, and simui. That never changes just as your real life sister will always be your sister no matter what. But I have noticed that people are starting to call their sihings "sifu" when your sifu is si gung. Just like what Geoff was describing. Your sifu can be someone else's si gung, but that doesnt change anyone else's titles relative to you. I think that's where the confusion is with a lot of people who is not familiar with the family titles in CHinese. Sorry... this is just something that is really bothering me because these titles should be preserved and if this misunderstanding of the titles continues, then the traditional system of these titles will be lost.

Si Si

On a positive note, I want to thank Ninja Boy for connecting me with his Sifu Tony Shiu and West Coast Lion Dance. My team was not able to perform for my cousin's wedding but Shiu Sifu and his team did a great job.

Since it was an outdoor show, they were able to use three lions and a bench/bridge setup. They did a sleeping lion portion and one of the lions (with Shiu Sifu himself in the head!) did some tricks on the bench. The band played excellently and I enjoyed their blend of music. (Ninja boy, am I correct that it is a mixture of Fat san and Hoc San music?) All this in the burning livermore sun. I also don't mean to leave out the buddha who played with lions and guided the show.

The only thing missing was Ninja Boy himself. Where were you?

Stephen

This topic is very approriate for lion dance and a pet peeve of mine.

[on soapboax] It appropriate because lion dance has it's roots in Kung Fu and Chinese family structure and these titles help preserve a little of that tradition.

Sifu has a double meaning. In a generic sense, it is a sign of respect for a highly skilled person. If you are teaching students under your own school, you are, by definition, a Sifu. If you have great skill acknowledged by the person addressing you, you are a Sifu. There is no formal test or requirement. It's more a sign of respect. In this form, you would always have the name associated with Sifu. Proper and formally, it would be [last name] Sifu. In America, we use title first so it would be Sifu [last name]. American's also get familiar and use Sifu [first name] though I find that rude. It's similar to calling someone Dr.

The second meaning of Sifu is master/father in relation to the disciple/son. In this form, you never attach the name to Sifu. Just like I would not say Daddy Chew to my Dad, I would not say Lam Sifu for my Sifu. Calling him that would say I'm an outsider.

As Si Si points out, all the other titles are chinese family heirarchy. Just like I wouldn't start calling my brother Dr. Chew if he earned a PH.D, you shouldn't call a si-hing, sifu just because he starts his own school. Outsiders should call him that and he deserves it. Along the same line, if a Si-Di (younger brother) becomes "better" then a Si-Hing (older brother) he is still the Si-Di in relation to the si-hing. It's not a title based on skill or prestige. Just chronology.

Finally, since this always get thrown in this discussion. Si-Gung is your teacher's teacher. Yes, it can be translated to grandmaster but it's not meant as a title for outsiders. People who insist to be called Si-Gung/grand master by outsiders are funny. It's like me asking you to call me grandpa just because I have grand kids.

[off soapbox]

Thanks for letting me rant.