Not to drag this topic into the ground (since it isn't lion dance) What *is* the proper term for referring to non-chinese in chinese?

Is "Kam" asking that we stop using chinese language to refer to non-chinese? That's acceptable but it's not clear that's what he's asking.

Some side notes, It's possible that different words have different meanings depending on where you are from. "Oriental" became insulting in the 60s and I think out of the Berkeley ethnic studies program when it was reasoned that Oriental assumes an Occidental or Euro-Centric view. This puts the Oriental in the submissive relation to the Europeans. Thus the term Asian was preferred since it marked the land mass with no hierarchal relationships.

I think only acadamia found it offensive because whenever I mention this (I'm a product of the Berkeley system) everyone says, "why is that offensive?" I also don't find it offensive but I personally find words harmless. If the intent is an insult, even calling me a nice word like "Special" is insulting. If no insult was intended, why should I take it as such. Close to what "Kam" said, I can't control how a person speaks, but I can control how I react.

Stephen.

PS. I mean no dis-respect to "Kam" by not calling him Sifu. This list has many Sifu's as well as beginners but we treat each other with respect as peers on the internet. I use "Kam" because that is how he signs his post.

Thanks for explaining that, Stephen. This is a MAJOR pet peeve of mine too. BTW, how was your cousin's wedding? Sorry we couldn't help out. I hope it went well.

Si Si

Glad to hear that your cousin's wedding went well. Sorry we couldnt make it again.

Si Si

I need to make one addition. Kam brought up a point I forgot.

There is the formal passing of the lineage. This is a ritual where the Sifu names a lineage holder. In this ritual, all the Sifu's students gather and accept the Sifu's decision to call the lineage holder Sifu.

There is no English equivalent I can think of. Maybe the Italian Mafia naming a new "God Father" but I know very little about that. It is rarely done anymore because it causes a lot of envy if there isn't a clear successor. Also, the person accepting the lineage has the obligation to treat all of his Sifu's students as his "children" which means being responsible for them too.

Finally, there are very few lineage holders left (because the practice fell out of favor) that it can't be done. You need to be the lineage holder to pass on the lineage. (unless you claim to start your own system)

Stephen

Hi,

Stephen and Chris made very good points and knowledge regarding the title of Si Fu. As we all know language is an evolving art and can change the use of a word, given time. My students refer to me as Si Fu both in and outside of the Kwoon. It is true that the old way was to say [surname] Si Fu or in proper English it is Si Fu [surname]. But these days things are a little less formal and even the really Ancients in our Chinatown, who know me (but not well), refer to me as Si Fu, Jo Sun, Lay Ho Ma (Si Fu - Good Morning,how are you), while others who know me well and are close to or a little older than myself will refer to me by my name ie. Wes or Kam. The teacher-father's students have to address him as Si Fu both in and out of the Training Hall - this is as it should be, to show respect. As for Si Hing - yes once you are the older brother, this is how the relationship remains.

As I previously stated, I at first signed my self as "Kam" - Wes Cameron, Si Fu - Shaolin West Kung Fu Kwoon, as a way of introduction. After that I have signed, on the whole "Kam" - Wes Cameron. I only require my students to refer to me as Si Fu, but as I said others, of their own volition, choose to also address me as Si Fu. On this Site, if a poster is a student of mine, then he will have to address me as Si Fu.

All the best in Kung Fu and Lion Dance!

"Kam" - Wes Cameron

I guess I must apologize for being rude. I teach a club that is run by kids 6-17 years old and I let them call me Sifu Chuck. I dint know that it was offensive---and the topper is my screen name is sifuchuck--gad zooks! Sorry for the offense!!!!

;)

Before this gets too far out of hand, you can't be rude if you ask people to call you sifu chuck. I know you smile but I'm not sure how much you are really kidding.

I meant it's rude for me to know you are a sifu and just arbitrarily call you sifu chuck to show I'm closer to you. In english, it's like calling you Daddy Chuck. Why not just call you Chuck or Daddy?

One comment, and this is along the lines of tradition, I hope the kids you teach know that it's OK to call you Sifu Chuck because you are not so formal but it would be rude for them to use the same format for a Sifu they are not so familier with.

Hey, some people prefer to have fun with the names. That's their right and I don't begrudge them that. But just like proper manners, what you do at home or between friends doesn't always translate to the greater society or can cause a break down in traditions.

Stephen

Sifu Chuck, and others:

I think it just depends on how traditional or how modern and practical you want to be.

My sifu was born and raised in Hong Kong, his name is Mak Chiu Jor. Sometimes we call him Mak Sifu, or Sifu Jor, but we always call him "sifu". He's been in Canada for over 30 years, so he understands the western, and eastern side of things. He's even good with students calling him Jor, or Mr. Mak. He has told us that in the past, you just call your master "sifu", nothing else, and that a good master should recognize the fact that westerners are still showing respect by calling one "sifu (and whatever name)".

I think it doesn't matter, so long as you are respectful, and abide by your school's or sifu's rules.

Also, I'm sure lots of the people on the list know that sifu is used in almost every other field. For example, in a restaurant, you can call the head chef "si fu" or "choy si". The big difference is that "si fu" here is a loose term, like "hey Wong Sifu! blah blah blah..." but in martial arts, it is a more solemn term.

With the help of one of the list members, and a good dictionary/textbook, I found out the OLD meaning of "fan" in "lo fan". Have you ever heard the term "fan yan"? It's the old, biggoted term for anything foreign and barbarian. This is the "fan" that is used in "lo fan". Fan is the proper word for things that are foreign, it doesnt really mean "barbarian" anymore. "Lo" is a way of saying person, example "dai lo" (boss, big brother, etc), or "lan lo" (lazy bastard)/. So as you see, the term is pretty neutral, it just depends on how you use it.

Hope that helps,
Thanks,
Paul

Stephen: I sincerely apologize that I was not able to make it to your cousin's wedding. I had other obligations that I had to attend to so that prevented me from performing. I am very glad that I was able to help you and even better to hear that you enjoyed the performance. To answer your question, our performances usually consist of the traditional freestyle routine and then we have sets that incorporate the modern style of lion dancing. The music was a combo of Fat San/Hok San however, leaning more towards Hok San. I myself am working on my own set that is incorporating more of the Hok San style. It will be performing the routine at my own cousin's wedding, but the performance is far from where I would want it to be but I must do this as I have already promised him a routine.

If you ever need a performance from us in the future, please dont hesitate to ask as we would be more than willing to perform for you. Thank you.

-Ninja B0Y

how was art of war? how was the lion dancing?

albert

Hi albert,

We were invited to see the premier last friday. We were in the first 10-15 mintues of the moive. I wasn't really surprized that they cut out alot of the lion dancing, the movie isn't called, "The Art of Lion Dance"... hehehe... anyways, You can hear my drumming and my face for a split second... and I emphasize "Split second". Other than that, the movie was pretty, cool, I got kinda lost half way into it, but figured everything out afterwards. Tell me what you think about it when you get a chance to see it.

Jason

Went to see it when I got back to Pasadena from my San Francisco trip yesterday. It was hyped to be an action movie (at least that's the impression I got) but much of the real action martial arts/chase scene takes place in the opening scene. What you can see of the lion dancing looks good and you can actually hear the drums in the background for quite a bit of the time. This was definitely my favorite part of the movie.

The rest of the movie goes into more of a suspense with some action thrown in to keep it interesting. It was good and got my mind working, but probably won't make it into my top 10 list of favorite movies.

Jason--great job to you and your crew! What you mentioned about the dragon before intrigued me. It was different, but looked like a lot of fun.

This isn't the movie to see if you don't like violence against women, or can't handle people getting shot right there in front of you, or if you want to see long footage of the lions, but all in all it was pretty cool.

Chris

I just got word from the Genting World Lion Dance Championships marketing department that the movie clips from this year's competition are ready for downloading at their site: http://www.genting.com.my The clips are of the final 10 teams. (If you want to skip the intro and get straight to the clips the link is here: http://www.genting.com.my/en/live_ent/2000/liondance/video2000.htm )

The VCDs are going to be ready in late November and as far as I know David Lei from the Chinese Performing Arts Center is still going to be the North American distributor. No word on the cost this year, but the 1998 set was $35 US and well worth the money.

Enjoy!

Chris

hello lion dancers:

hope this closes the definition of the cantonese term "lo fahn"......

"Lo" is a polite form to address another person. Lo refers to the person as an elder, therefore the person addressing another person with 'Lo' is lowering himself in status to show respect to the person he is addressing. Like addressing someone as sir.

"Fahn" does not mean rice. It is another chinese character all together. When Chinese emigrate and settle in other countries, the refer to the indigeneous people as "Fahn" people or Fahn Yun. "Fahn" refers to indigeneous people...A Chinese in Burma may refer to the indigenous Burmese people as "lo fahn" also.

Lo Fahn is not a deregatory term and does not necessarily refer to people of European descent.

On the other hand "Gwai Lo" would be considered more deregatory though it's so widely used. Literally, Gwai means devil or ghost and of course Lo is the polite form of addressing someone....Sir Ghost. It is widely used in China to refer to any outsiders..especially to conquering armies..not only referring to people of European descent.

Are we clear as mud?....Now back to lion dancing....

dr. doong chang

>one thing that disturbs me though and that is the occasional reference to
>non-Asians as Lo fan...[snip]...I hope in the future not to see this terminology
>used on this site!

I SUPPORT YOU ALL THE WAY!

Vinh Nguyen

Hi Everyone,

Well, I see we are still somewhat stuck on this topic.

I guess it is obvious by now that whomever one asks, there will be a different meaning for the term Lo Fan, depending on their source(s) - there is far past, recent past, present, inflection, context, tonal pronunciation, tone and varying view points to mention a few.

Personally I would not use terminology which 'could' be construed as impolite or racist, some of you have had the same opinion and given me your support, others have vehemently opposed the possible meaning of the term as explained to me, many years ago. Some have been down right rude.

I guess the safe path, is to use the surgeons code - "When in doubt, cut it out" Ha Ha, but, this may be an appropriate policy to follow here, in this case.

Please let us learn and move on - to Lion Dancing.

Thank You

All the Best!

"Kam" - Wes Cameron, Si Fu, Shaolin West Kung Fu Kwoon

Hi,

As soon As George let me know when the VCD of the 2000 competition is available I'll arrange for the Chinese Performing Arts Foundation in San Francisco to inventory them for distribution in North America. This should save postage (from Malaysia) and facilitate easy payment by check for those interested in buying.

The Chinese performing Arts Foundation is a 501 C3 non profit and basically re-sell such products at cost. We order and pay for these VCDs in advance and hope we sell them all to recoup our investment. Will help me know how many to inventory IF ALL THOSE INTERESTED PLACE YOUR ORDERS WITH ME NOW. I will confirm your orders later as soon as I find out the cost.

Dr. William Hu's book on Chinese Lion Dance is out of print and I can not find any more sources for this book. Doubtful that this book will be reprinted because of the heavy subsidy required to produce and distribute small quantities of a book on such a narrow topic. So if you see this book at a bookstore, suggest you grab it.

David

I am sorry... I have been out of the country for the past couple months, so I don't know what the movie is about. Were you in the movie Jason? That's pretty cool.

Si Si

So do I just say that I want one or should I already send you the check?

I WANT ONE....not quite sure wut i do...but it says to palce an order wit u..HOW??...well i want one...thanx

Pk

David, I want one too. count me in for one.

Albert Le

Hi Si Si,

Yeah... My group was asked to do the lion/dragon dance in the opening scene... I aslo got to play an extra in another scene... I decribed everything in a earlier post... you can probably find it in the Archives if you want to know more... =)

Jason

Hi Chris,

Yeah, the movie was more of a "political thriller"... than an action movie. There was was scene where I thought was pretty dumb... when Shaw and his former partner was having that gun fight in the hall way, then all of a sudden the ended up back to back reloading their guns... hehehe... Thanks, It was sooo much fun, despite the weather... anyways. The dragon was pretty messed up eh?? hehehe, it was kinda wierd... it was soooooo big!! anyways. I was playing the drum, Just incase anyone was wondering, and I played a waiter in the roof scene. =)

Jason

Dear David,

I'm interested in a copy of the competition vcd

Si si, Lee, what's up, small world, yes I know Scott and Mike. It's impossible to get a hold of them. Tell them I said hello.

Tim, I'll get back to you on the Marina thing ASAP.

Busy with 5th grade curriculum and correcting homework.

Sincerely,

perry

Oh cool, it didn't click in my head that it might be you until my Si-Dai Karl mentioned that it might be. Yeah small world. I'll tell them that you said hi when they get back from vacation. They are in China with Sifu and Simo now.

Si Si

Hi Si si,

So that's where they are, Scott mentioned it but I didn't know if it was going to happen. Tell Karl, sifu Ken, andrew and everyone I said HI....... I also wen to China over the summer break.

Gotta' get back to lesson planning.

Perry

David I'm interested in the 2000 VCD,

Thanks,

Tim

To everyone in the Bay Area,

The Chinatown Beacon Center is looking for a lion dance instructor for their after school program, teaching middle-high school kids. I taught there for approx. 2 months before I graduated from college and moved back to Houston, and the kids are very enthusiastic. My schedule was from 4:30-6:00pm every Friday night, but you can work out whatever hours work best for you (and you're not limited to teaching just one night a week if you want to do more). Let me just say that knowledge of Cantonese is a plus, and would really keep the kids in check. And the facilities are really nice - we were allowed to use Jean Parker (Elem?) School across the street, which has a huge meeting hall and a room behind the stage that was quite useful.

This is a paid job and your salary is somewhat negotiable (depends on how much funding they decide to reserve for this program). The Chinatown Beacon Center is located on Broadway just west of Powell, right before the big tunnel (forgot the exact address but I'll get it to you if anyone needs it). If anyone is interested, please contact Debbie Ng at the Beacon Center.

Debbie Ng
Youth Coordinator
Chinatown Beacon Center
(415) 391-4721 X16
debbie@wuyee.org

Thanks alot. And happy lion dancing!

Willy

The Chinatown Beacon Center address is:

Chinatown Beacon Center
c/o Wu Yee Children's Services
831 Broadway Street, 2nd Floor
San Francisco, CA 94133

and that's the Broadway tunnel you're talking about. I used to go to Jean Parker Elementary waaaaay back in the day--before it was remodeled because of the earthquake. I went by there recently and saw the new auditorium/stage. It's nice!

Take care,

Chris

yes...let's burry this lo fahn stuff...let's just call chinaman chinaman....bok gwai's lof an and do do ball ...for do do sahng gai moo...

Hey Stephen I believe these are the photos from your cousin's wedding. Enjoy!

http://WWW.oocities.com/superteec/livermore.html