Hey JJ,

> 1) Same routine in competition...
> Would'nt it be cool to have a competition where the poles are set in
> advance and uniform for all teams, and the competition rules still apply,
> but there'd be an additional points category for
> originality/creativity?

That is a really cool idea. Competing in the same environment but being allowed to devise your own method to tackle the puzzle would really let us determine 'who's who' in competition. On the one hand, you compete with the same poles (and maybe even instruments) so setup is quick, and the transitions will be smoother. And, you also force teams to get creative so no routine should be the same. Actually, it wouldn't really matter if competing teams saw each other perform or not because I assume they would have worked for months on their own routine so why bother drastically changing what they practiced? It's like when I used to go to high school orchestra competitions and we were all given the same pieces to play... and some people would inevitably play better than others.

Willy

Hi JJ and everyone on the list.

Please see below...

> 1) Same routine in competition...
> Would'nt it be cool to have a competition where the poles are set in
> advance and uniform for all teams, and the competition rules still apply,
> but there'd be an additional points category for originality/creativity?
> Only the teams who competed would only be allowed to view the rest of the
> competition and the teams who didn't compete shouldn't be allowed to view
> the competition otherwise it'll give them unfair planning. There will be
> a separate identical setup in another room for a "walkthrough" so the
> competitors won't endager themselves with unfamiliarity of the setup.
> They would be allowed in the "walkthrough" prior to their competing time.

This is a nice idea....but I would allow other teams to watch too since the poles setting is the same for one competition (judging mainly on performances and creativities)...and change the settings for the next competition....so it is not necessary to prevent other teams to watch. Also, by watching other teams better then themselves they can learn from it and it might help them improve. But your main idea is good though.

> 2) Traditional floor show vs. competition-style lion dancing...
> The advantage of the competition-style lion dancing is the fact that it's
> peaking interest of lion dancing among those who weren't exposed to the
> art of lion dancing. Do you think that the movement towards the
> competition-style may cause an abandonement of the floor-style that's been
> passed on for the past 3-5 generation? Should there be a separtate
> category in competition for this type of lion dancing in order to preserve
> the "old style(i.e. 7 star, bucket, ect)?"

I agree with you here. For the past years or so, we have been descussion mainly of Hoc Shan style....I think we are forgetting that there is also the floor formations too. I hope there will be a competition for floor formations as well.

Gorge, is it possible for you to suggest this to Master Siow and the board of the Genting Competition? That way, we can have both form of Liondancing grow side by side.

The weekend is comming....enjoy the break and happy Liondancing.

DVo

I heard from Dr. Hu that there are in fact fixed puzzles in both the ground and platform style in certain places. The one in particular that he mentioned to me was one set out in front of a bank. The chang was open to any lion dance group who wanted to try. However, the prize was locked and only the group that interpreted the puzzle correctly would get the prize. It think the puzzle stood for weeks as various groups tried to solve the puzzle. Finally, the one group that did get the chang was the one that realized that the happy buddah was the key to the lion's solving of the puzzle.

Also, in regards to mentioning the idea to Master Siow, I thought I heard him mention in the San Fran seminar that he doesn't particularly care to share his expertise on ground puzzles and Kung Fu. I'm sure he knows the traditonal stuff, but he didn't seem to want to dwell on it.

Sherman

> I'm sure he knows the traditonal stuff, but he didn't seem to want to dwell on it.

Hmm, I do remember a little about that. He drew a diagram of a chang and demonstrated various ways that the puzzle can be solved. His point was that there are many interpretations of 'tradition' and that it can't really be nailed down to one specific tried-and-true method. Not dwelling on it seems like the appropriate way to sum it up - perhaps too many people dwell on how things used to be and don't pay enough attention to how things could evolve to in the future?... Just a thought.

Willy

I totally agree with you on that. I think the fact that the "competition style" lion dance is growing bigger and bigger in interest, is that, it's being exposed to people who aren't really awear of Lion dance. I mean, If you're going to show someone an example of lion dance, you're not going to show them footage of a floor routine, but one of a pole routine. I guess for the "shock" value of it... having two people on poles doing acrobatic tricks and all. However, I don't think that the Floor routine, or "traditional" lion dance won't be forgotten or abandoned. I know alot of schools who still practice that. In Montreal, where I'm from, the majority of schools are practicing "Traditional" lion dance. Partly for the fact that There aren't any teachers who come here, eventhough it's a really big city... there isn't really a market for it.

I dunno if anyone has heard of this... but I've seen a competition video of traditional lion dance. I believe it was from Hong Kong... but I'm not too sure, but I do know it was taken in '96. Anyone can help me out on this??

Jason

>I also have a question. In the clips on the web, I see two lions stacked
>next to the drums. What are they doing there? Was it part of the early
>routine or is it just part of the decorations. Do they come down after
>each performance? It seems I saw them on a few of them.

Yes, Stephen. They are just part of the decorations for KSK Team A & C. They are like mannequins. And yes, they were put on the side after KSK performed. Those were a part of very elaborate decorations shown by KSK.

James

Hi Jason,

Do you happen to have this video in your collection? I like to have a copy of it if possible. (I am refering to the ground formation competition in Hong Kong you're talking about.) Thankx.

Vo Minh Duc

Hi,

Sorry, I don't have a copy... Someone had shown it to me... but never got a copy of it... I'm still looking for it.

Jason

I'm looking for advice--I teach Hung Gar as a volunteer to a kids' kung fu club and they want to learn a lion dance routine. I have a chance to buy a lion with drum, cymbals and gong all for $1,000.00--is this a good price? It's from Hong Kong. I've only seen lions for sale from Jonie's in SF for about 900.00 for just the lion--also, this is for a kid's club--ages 6-17. Is the regular lion too big for kids? Do they need a smaller one?

chuck

ps--thanks to Willy Le for the info about Fat San and Hoc San--much appreciated. I have a new student who has offered me Chinese Language lessons in exchange for kung fu lessons. wish me luck!

Hey Chuck,

$1000 is good but if you're in the Bay Area you can do better. I got a lion ($400), drum (~$200), gong ($80) for under $700. I then bought 4 pairs of cymbals for $160 for a total of around $850. Everything was from Darwell except the drum, which was from Jonie's. But it does take a little legwork and maneuvering, and there's no guarantee that the SF stores carry everything you will want right now. I say, go ahead and get the $1000 deal if the club is paying for it and they already know what the lion looks like. But if price is your concern, hit Darwell (for everything) and Jonie's (for the drum if Darwell is out). Go to http://www.oocities.org/lionscave1/Equipment.html for contact info.

Hope this helps.

And no problem about the other info. Hope you liked my site!

Willy

Hi JJ,

Our team have 3 teams that uses the same pole arrangement, which is the same as the Kung Seng Keng's C team. Our routine is designed according to the the ability and weakness of our dancers. I must say that since we use the same pole arrangement the routine are similar but they are definitely not identical. I do not think that using identical pole arrangement , and I do not think that originality/creativity too has any relevance in the quality of a performance. We are trying to emphasize on doing a 'good' rather than 'interesting' performance.

I do not think that the pole competition will endanger the "traditional" floor show as the pole competition is a extension of a 'traditional floor show'. There are floor-formation competitions in Malaysia but it is not as popular. In the last Malaysian Nationnal LD competition there were a discussion between the judges on how to set the rules for the floor show competition. Master Siow also held a similar competition in a resort a few years back whereby teams has to pick lots and perform the formation that they pick. Yip's team picked the 'Pa-Gua' Spider formation and it took them 45 minutes to complete it. Unfortunately floor-shows suffers a lack of popularty and other problems as compared to the other competition.

George

By teasers, I think you mean puzzles. The cave routine is a bit of a puzzle as there are protocols to be met. They actually had this huge cave door looking thing as a prop. Imagine a big upside down "U" with two little "u"'s on each side.

The other one just had a chang. Since I did not come to Singapore for the competition, I didn't have time to stay for the other schools so I'm not sure if others did more complicated routines.

Stephen

I agree with Willy as Lion dance has to grow and survive. For pole-competition we do still emphasize the 'traditional' aspect of the lion dance, ie, 3 bows before/after performances, testing of obstruction/chang, etc. These I feel is the true essence of LD. The key for us is: 'Innovation still with tradition'

George

Hi all,

>Gorge, is it possible for you to suggest this to Master Siow and the board
>of the Genting Competition? That way, we can have both form of
>Liondancing grow side by side.

Master Siow and co. are looking into this. It is however for Genting as they are a profit making organization and traditional competition is not that popular. It took the LD community 17 years to bring pole competition to this level, so I guess we will have to wait for a while for floor formation to catch up. However I think we can help by promoting this form ourselves and try to gain more popularity.

George

Hi Jason,

Well, 'being exposed people who aren't really aware of Lion dance' is better than not being exposed at all. I do not like to become a part of a dead art!:). To survive one must adapt. I must say we LD is doing much better than the 'pei-yau', 'Chee-ling' and even the northern lion, and I do not think the essence of LD has changed much either.

It is very difficult to promote floor formation as it involves so many Chinese symboligies which has a Chinese only explaination and no appropriate translation, ie it will not be possible to promote it to people who does not understand the Chinese language and philosophies. Many floor formation also invloves tricks, ie the 'flying snake' chang etc. The reason why pole formations is emphasize as it can be promoted as a sport and can be promoted easier.

George

Hi Steven,

>I'm currently in Singapore (Lion City) for the week and just
>happened to notice that Ngee An City, a major shopping center
>on Orchard Road, is having a Lion Dance contest this week.

I was there last year(just passing through) and I had to climb up some of the 'deco's to get a view. I only watched for 30mins as I was with someone not that keen in LD:).

>Singapore is serious about their lion dance competitions. The area
>is outdoors and large enough for a covered grandstand and two
>full pole configurations similar to the ones at Genting. I've never
>seen the set up for genting but I imagine it's similar.

Well, in Genting you have to pay! Also in Genting there are seats for 6,000 people.

>I did notice that there were alot of make shift alters in the street. Is that
>normal? We never bai san before a performance but again this was a
>competition. Do the lions participate or is this just peformers?

Last time the whole 'earth mound' next to the place was filled with hundres and hundres of incense and candles, spewing smoke all along that part of Orchard Rd. I remember too that during 1998's world champ one of the S'pore team member held a inncense and flag for the whole of the performance. They must take their beliefs pretty seriously! Anyway, Thanx for the update!

George

That sounds like an interesting one. I was thinking actually about the two people that help or direct the lions.. I'm not sure what the proper term is, but someone referred to one of them as the man who tamed the lion. We have one female and one male 'teaser / helper / tamer' that direct the lions when we do our dance. I've heard that those two have their own stories, but I haven't ever seen any. For instance, I heard of one where the 'husband' goes out and gets the lion drunk, then the wife comes out and berates both of them. That's only one I can remember. I thought that down there, they may perform some of those acts since they were more traditional.

Geoff

September 9, 00. Saturday

Hawaii Lion Dancers

A moon festival was held on the evening of september 9, 00. Saturday night. From 4 p.m.-9 p.m. It was held at the Chinese Cultural Plaza. The event was being organized by the Tzu - Chi Buddhist Foundation , locally in Hawaii .

The opening ceremony began with the traditional chinese lion dance which was being performed by the Au ' s Shaolin Arts Shaolin Arts Society . Also featured on the program was chinese dancing and a group of young children both boys and girls , doing dancing and singing to chinese songs and music . There were also Japanese Taiko Drumming , and a performance by the Chinese Lion Dance Assn . Being directed by Sifu Jeffery Lam . They did a jong ( pole ) skit . They were using a medium size lion head wih matching outfit . Their lion head looked really nice which was mostly white colored . During the performance the lion had fallen off , the jongs . But the main thing is that they went back on the jongs and continued their performance . Their performance was good , luckily nobody was hurt seriously , only for the tail player who was leaping as he was walking off the stage . That was probably the highlight of the moon festival.

There was also kung fu / Chi kung demos by the Au ' s Shaolin Arts Society . Their style is basically Hung Gar and Choy Li Fut . Their kung fu demonstration was good as well as their weapon demo . They were doing some hung gar and choy li fut empty hand sets . The weapon demo were the Kwan Dao , Spear , and the 3 sectional staff sets . Their chi kung demo was the lohan method . Their instructor is Sifu Seng Au . Who was a long time student of Sifu Bucksam Kong , but has branched off to form his own group .

There were dances by the Iwalani school of dance . Not to forget food booths , games for variuos ages . And those giant pillows where children get to go inside and jump in it . Displays bone marrow , and other things which tells people all about tzu chi buddhist foundation . The event ended with a grand prizes drawing . They have this event every year . People could use scripts or pay cash to buy food or soda , bottled water , they had malasadas , and different types of foods being made and prepared by different booths and organizations .

Hey guys,

I agree with George that a good performance is still a good performance regardless if you have seen it before or not. After watching many performances, you do start to notice the little nuances that set teams apart and hopefully you can appreciate them (by the way, George, your top team is noticably way ahead of your other pairs! They are awesome! =).

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing something like JJ's plan go into effect because it would be good for bragging rights, etc, amongst the teams. But we have to remember that lion dance must also have enough freedom to adapt and evolve. I know it seems that everyone wants to emulate KSK because they are just so far ahead of everyone else RIGHT NOW, but trust me, as teams catch up you will see a LOT of creative variations in the future (Yip's team, for example). KSK won't rule the scene forever, so before we try to change the system let's give it some time to develop. I guess a logical compromise would be to have JJ's plan go side by side with the regular competitions, but like I said, let's allow the system to grow first before we go changing it.

As for the traditional formation competitions, I feel that it'd be ok for die-hards but it would be too difficult to catch on with the general public. In order for traditional competitions to take place and grow, many, many people have to be interested in it, and George has already pointed out that this has not happened. It's going to take some creativity to figure out how to develop these practices into something people everywhere will care to see.

Best,

Willy

Actually, that was the point I was initially trying to make. Have all teams to do one uniform arrangement of poles because it would be interesting to see what each team would do with the same arrangement. As it was pointed out earlier, if the floor puzzles were performed differently by each team, the pole arrangement should have similar results, and as George points out, would highlight the strength of each team.

One of the reason why I consider liondancing a sport as much as it is an art. One of the excitement of viewing a sporting event is to watch an "underdog" team achieve victory. Though we may say that one pair is "ahead" of another pair, come "crunch time" or "game day" (ie. final rounds) you may have an idea who's "ahead," but we still never know who will come out.

> I guess a logical compromise would be to have JJ's plan
> go side by side with the regular competitions, but like I said, let's
> allow the system to grow first before we go changing it.

The system has been growing in leaps and bounds especially in the past 5-10 years. If I'm not mistaken, not only were teams representing different Asian countries this year, but almost every continent had been represented at some point(?)

I know that the older traditional floor stuff would only be for the hardcore lion dance fans/practitioners. I was merely trying to create dialogue on how to further preserve that aspect of lion dancing now that the art/sport is gaining momentum in popularity outside of the Chinese martial arts circle.

Thanx for letting me share again.

-Jj

P.S. Not to open another can of worms, but here's a twist to the uniform pole arrangement in competition. Since most competition have a preliminary and final round, how about each team use their individual pole arrangement for one round and then the uniform arrangement for the other round. If so, which round?

Ok--here comes the novice again---how are poles used in lion dance? the only thing I know about is rolling on the ground, hopping onto benches, a few floor techniques--tell me about the poles.

chuck

ps thanks to all who have sent info about purchasing our club's first lion--I'll get back to each of you individually after a little research.

Hi Jason,

That's no a problem. In fact, that is usually the case. We liondancers have seen many liondance tapes but never got the chance to add them to our collection.

Thanks for sharing your experiences.

Vo Minh Duc

Hi George,

Thanks for the replies to our messages about floor formation...

In the message you reply to me, you suggest for us to help in making floor formation more popular...my question back is how do you propose we do that? I think if we could do it, we would have done it a long time ago.(right?) What was the secret that help get the poles rutine to this level? Do you think it can be apply to the floor formations too? Also, why does floor formation take so long to solve/finish?

What do you guys think about George's suggestion? How do you think we can get the floor formation more popular? Really think, if we want to get the floor to the level of the poles rutines, what do we have to do and how might we go about doing it?

Sorry if I have ramble on too far...hihi :-)

Cheers,

Vo Minh Duc

> We are trying to emphasize on doing a 'good'rather than
> 'interesting' performance.

Yes a good PERFORMANCE is better than watchin a original performance. BUT an original and creative competition routine for me is better than watchin the same routine.

Albert

I don't think floor formations will become that popular. there is no real appeal when compared to pole formations. I think George couldn't have put it in any better way, i would rather be part of lively and adaptive than but part of a dead art. the pole formation creates interest in lion dancing to a lot of people(especially young) and keeps the interest of people. traditional floor formation would not go that far especiall with pole formations overshadowing it.

Albert Le