Hi all,

Contemporary, can be exciting to watch, but as well, after seeing a number of them, can become a little redundant watching all the jumping, jumping jumping from pole to pole. Lets not forget that Lion Dance developed with ground and aerial methods and puzzles. If you loose the ground and puzzle methods of Lion Dance with the different stepping and drumming patterns, then you loose the root and history of Lion Dance. Traditional Lion Dance can and is very interesting, pleasing and exciting to watch as well. However, for competition, I would use less time consuming puzzles or adapt them to fit into competition time constraints. When we do a traditional dance I really cut the 'wake up time down - for I must admit that a long wake up can get tedious. But it is very important to keep traditional Lion Dance alive and well. I believe spectators would really enjoy the traditional floor and props (some of which can be almost as high as the contemporary poles), if there was a write up on the meaning(s)of the routine for those spectators who did not know it.

On another subject - we just finished doing a number of businesses in Chinatown, for the Mid-Autumn Moon Festival. Grueling schedule with so many one after the other, but a lot of fun! Anyone on the list do any for the Moon Festival beside what laine mentioned?

All the best!

'Kam' - Wes Cameron

Hi people.

Speaking of Traditional Lion dance... Ground routines, props and puzzles... Somone correct me if I'm wrong... but I think I've seen a book with all Lion dance Puzzles, and recomended solutions. I Don't remember alot of it, but I do remember there was the "Bak Gua" puzzle and the Water snake puzzzle... It was all written in Chinese... Can anyone confirm this?

Thanks,

Jason

I believe that groups should maintain their traditional routines, but it can go both ways. If you repeatedly saw the same floor routines being performed by several groups, wouldn't it start to look redundant as well? Modern lion dancing yields new challenges for everyone and being able to perform stunts and jumps can be a fulfilling achievement. It's also a way for those who don't know what lion dancing is at all to learn more about the art/sport. I can remember that the very reason I wanted to get into lion dancing was to be able to perform moves YKM was doing in a pole competition many years ago. I'm not saying that we should totally stop performing traditional floor routines, but there is much admiration for those who have the talent and ability. If there was an organizer who wanted a lion dance for his show whatever it maybe, would he rather have a pole routine or a floor routine?

forwarded message attached:

Springarce Entreprise
----------
No 206, Block C7, Bandar Baru Wangsa Maju, 53300 Kuala Lumpur. West Malaysia.
Tel: 603-6371007 Fax: 603-6372729 Hand phone: 6017-879 0210
E-mail: lrence@tm.net.my

To whom it may concern,

If you are looking for lion dance equipment supplier, look no more because my company will cater to all your needs. For I am involved in the dance myself, you bet I know what you want.

First, a good lion head must be strong and yet light in weight. Second, it must be beautiful. Final, it must be affordable. The recent why I know so well, because I am the Executive secretary and coach for Meng Kok lion dance Association. My team are one the top teams in Malaysia. With strong support from my master (Sifu Lim Meng Kok), who manufacture the lion head, I dare to approached you because I know you will be happy with the final product. Not only lion dance costumes, but from metal poles with international standard to uniform, T-shirt, flags, and even conducting seminar/classes on traditional lion dancing. I have trained teams from Indonesia and Canada. I am also an advisor for a team in Hong Kong and France.

So with all the experience stated, I am sure you have made-up your mind. But if you still have any doubt, do not hesitate to contact me. Upon receiving your enquiries, catalogue will be mail to you.

Thanks for your time! Bye

Yours Faithfully,

Lawrence Ng

Yeah, My school recieved the exact same letter from him... I emailed him for a catolgue... His Lion Heads are "Ok"... Nothing very fancy.

Jason

Hi again...I think I'd better make some clarification to what I meant. When I said that I thought it'd be cool to see one uniform pole arrangement for the competing teams, I didn't mean that I wanted to see each team do IDENTICAL performances. I kinda liken this approach to a diving competition. Though everyone utilizes the same diving board, at the same height, into the same pool, each diver dives in differently. Likewise with the same pole arrangements, possibly the same instruments, each team would get the cheng differently.

Hope this clarifies everything.

-Jj

Hi JJ,

I think your point is clear enough. But still, thanks for making sure that we don't miss understood you.

hihi :-)

Cheers,

Vo Minh Duc

Hey

I was just wondering what is the best hand position on the waist for the tail while lifting the head for a jump.

Is it the same position with or without a belt/sash?

Thanx,

-Tim

Hi Tim,

Place the hands exactly on either side of the head's waist. Hook the thumbs underneath the sash so you can have precise control. This is also the best place to hold the waist even without the sash (tho a sash is highly recommended).

Willy

Hi Tim,

The way Willy said is probably what everyone does. Place your thumbs underneath the sash... It helps if you hold the Knot like a handle, you have total control.

Jason

Hello,

Ninja Boy - the point of my post was I think missed. Of course any routine if seen too many times can be redundant - Contemporary or Traditional. Both have their good and not so good points, so why not include Traditional in competition. And just so you know - traditional has jumps and acrobatic techniques as well. Back in 1974, we were doing these acrobatics in Traditional puzzle Lion Dance in the streets of Winnipeg for Folklorama. The real point is this - if one goes all out just for the pole competition form of Lion Dance - you loose the root and foundation of what Lion Dance is about and without a root....I have a tape of a Lion Dance competition from 1992 in Hong Kong where there is both Traditional and Contemporary Lion dance - the crowd loved them both.

Going back further, I have a tape of a 1985 competition from Hong Kong, where it is all Traditional, with some very hard and difficult routines being performed requiring a lot of skill - urns, teapots, urns on over-turned Champagne glasses where the tail is on a top urn and has the head on his legs and the head jumps down to a lower urn that is on four over turned glasses, gets a difficult to reach Choi Chiang and then jumps back up on the legs - this is just one of many very difficult and acrobatic routines in this one dance alone, never mind the others in the competition. The other point is that division should not occur between Lion Dancers where one considers Contemporary to be more interesting or important than traditional or vice versa, for this will eventually be detrimental to the popularity and survival of Lion dance.

All the Best.

'Kam' - Wes Cameron

Wes, thanks for educating me even further for I did know that traditional routines included acrobatic skills. I think one of the reasons why pole routines are so popular is because it adds a sense of danger to the performance. People enjoy watching lion dancers perform daring (if not, dangerous) stunts for the same reason people watch motocross, circus performers, stunt car drivers, etc.

Also, it's much easier for groups out there to adapt to the modern style since the resources to learn how to dance is not that hard to find. Wes, I understand that we should maintain our roots and the foundation of what lion dancing is, but if most groups out there are performing the modern style, you can't help but to keep up with them.

Oh, I never saw any teasers then. In fact, I only saw one lion routines No multiple lion routines.

Stephen

Have you seen the hac son ones? they look worser than the fat shan ones. but these lions have good art jobs on the back and their dragon horns are neat to look up close at.

Albert

Hi Albert.

No, I havn't... He only sent me pictures of the fat san lions. I couldn't see any of the art work, the pictures weren't that great.

Oh.... I didn't bother keeping the pictures From Kuen Way. Sorry.

Jason

Hi Guys,

I think one of the strongest reasons why pole routines are popular is because it is organized. There is now a standard system/rule that can be used to judge. This has made the 'art' somewhat nearer to a 'sport', and looks more 'professional'. I think that by having a organization and a judging system has done a lot in enhancing the image of lion dancing and making it more acceptable to many people. It also happens that it look more exciting, but that's not everything. In International compertitions(IDLDA)form has just as much weight as difficulity (ie 3 out of a total of 10 points). If you see teams like KSK they do not have a lot of difficult stunts, but rather just a few difficult one executes perfectly. It is in the other catergories that (ie. form, music cordination etc) that they really out class others.

AS for the traditional routine I do not think it is only for hadr core fans, as stated in other posts, they do have very difficult ones! I think a good LD performance, be it floor or poles, will be apreciated by any audience. I feel that there is a need to preserve them.

The lion dance groups here are trying to promote the floor routine competitions and have organise a few of them, but they are still finding their way in getting a standardise rule ready. I think only when it goes international that it will really catch on. In the mean time, lets try to get more people introduced to this kind of routine by being open minded and willing to share.

George

Hi M.Vo,

Their many reasons why pole competition is popular and I think I sated some of them in one of the mails. For me, it is the standardise competition and the 'excitement' of the performances. Unfortunately in this age of 'action shows' traditional routine is not going to be easy to promote. However, even pole routine has boring and exciting ones, so I guess so does floor routine. We have to be innovative and try new things, and not be tied by 'traditions'- "innovate with tradition". We will have to brave enough to try and accept that there is going to be many failures before we can find the right one. I think it was also the same story with the 'Malaysian/Singaporean' way of lion dancing-short tail, matching movements etc. Also i think we will have to promote it more, and be open-minded about sharing it. Who knows what one might get in return?

Not all floor routine take so long, but it sometime takes so long as there are no 'standard' routines!

Recently I started thinking about floor routines not so much as a preservation of traditional styles, but a way to encourage more to join in LD. Pole routines are pretty limited to people who are light and strong and most of them are at the age of 16-20s. I see that floor routine opens up the field almost to anybody, and a great way to promote the dance.

That's all from me now, and I think this topic is very good and hope this discussion will be on going.

Regards,

George

Willy,

Thank you so very much for taking time to assist us with our delimma! I shared your letter with the club managers Alex (16 years old) and John (15 years old) and we all agreed that we will go for the $1000 lion set that was offered to us.

We are in the Bay area--but not San Francisco Bay--We are located in Whitefish Bay, Wisconsin! That makes it really tough to shop for Chinese imports--but your info and advice is greatly appreciated. Here is our web site: Whitefish Bay Kung Fu Club

Thanks again

chuck

Hey no problem, Chuck Sifu!

Good luck with your club... nice to see people so young (your managers) take control and make decisions. I'll link up your site on my troupe's webpage. =)

Best,

Willy

So how old are you Sifu Chuck? Your club managers are the same age as me. Good to see a lot of interest in places like Wisconsin. Best wishes for your club.

Albert

HI ITS DANIEL , I WAS JUST WONDERING IF YOU STILL HAD COPIES OF BOTH OF THE LD COMPETITIONS FROM HK. IF YOU STILL HAVE ANY OF THOSE VIDEOS I WOULD LOVE TO GET A COPY IF YOU WOULDN'T MIND

I WAS WONDERING IF ANYBODY OUT THERE REMEMBERED ANYTHING ABOUT A TOPIC ON DISPEARSING PRIVATE COLLECTIONS OF VIDEOS THROUGHOUT THE LD LIST MEMBERS? IF ANYBODY WANTS TO TRADE VIDEOS LET ME KNOW CUZ I WOULD LIKE TO ADD TO MY COLLECTION!!

DANIEL LOW

Good points. The pole jumping is exciting to watch, but eventually will loose the audience they are attracting with the very short attention spans. I don't feel that the pole teams have much they can do to keep the routine interesting to that kind of audience, since they can basically only go forward or backward on the poles.. and that may get boring to that audience quickly. Someone mentioned that the good things about poles is it sets up a 'standard' by which to judge the groups. I don't think it makes a standard just by using poles, but I do think it forced the judging body to make a standard. I say that because each group makes thier own poles under certain regulations, and they don't share one set of standard poles.

I think that the more traditional dances would be more standardized since they are usually setup by the people hiring the team. If there was a competition, the judges could setup a standard puzzle, then judge each group on the same exact puzzle, which is the way I think they used to do it back in the old days.

I believe the key to making the traditional routine in this setting more interesting to the audience is to explain what the goal is for the puzzle. I don't think you can assume the audience knows what the chang is! I don't think that many people even know what the chang at the end of the poles is about, they are just interested in seeing the acrobatics. As someone else mentioned, this could be done with the less time-consuming puzzles, which is a great idea for a short attention span audience.

rgds

Geoff

Anyone going to be in San Diego, California on October 13-15? The San Diego Asian Business Center is looking for judges, volunteers, and participants for its first annual lion dance competition.

Email me for more details if you're interested.

Chris

Hi Chris,

Any chance of someone video taping the event? I know I can't make it down there but I would love to still see the event on video tapes.

Have a good weekend to all!

Cheers,

Vo Minh Duc

I AM HEADING TO HK AND CHINA ON OCT.5 FOR ONE MONTH AND WOULD LIKE TO BRING BACK A LION SET . WHERE IS A GOOD PLACE TO GO? DOES ANYONE KNOW IF THERE WILL BE ANY SORT OF FESTIVAL THAT TIME OF YEAR THAT MIGHT HAVE LION DANCING?

I WILL ALSO BE GOING TO THE WONG FEI HUNG STAGE SHOW IN GUANGZHUO! HAS ANYBODY HEARD OF ,OR SEEN THE SHOW ? I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF IT IS ANY GOOD I HEARD THAT THERE IS LOTS OF LION DANCING THERE!

DANIEL LOW

Hi guys,

Finally, lion dance in the Olympic:)! Maybe lion dance will get to be a real sport in the Olympics sooner than we tought:). Anyway, who did that dance? Not bad at all!

Just thinking..

George

George

WHERE? WHEN? i DIDNT SEE any. LIon dance should be an olympic sport. What did they do?

Albert

Hi guys...

Here's a link to a picture that we took on the set of Art of war... That big orange thing behind us was the Dragon they made for us... Everyone standing up in that pic is around 5 feet 10 inches tall.... just to give you a perspective of how big that dragon was...

http://mtl_liondance.tripod.com/Photos/groupaow199.JPG

Jason

I AM HEADING TO HK AND CHINA ON OCT.5 FOR ONE MONTH AND WOULD LIKE TO BRING BACK A LION SET . WHERE IS A GOOD PLACE TO GO? DOES ANYONE KNOW IF THERE WILL BE ANY SORT OF FESTIVAL THAT TIME OF YEAR THAT MIGHT HAVE LION DANCING?

I WILL ALSO BE GOING TO THE WONG FEI HUNG STAGE SHOW IN GUANGZHUO! HAS ANYBODY HEARD OF ,OR SEEN THE SHOW ? I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF IT IS ANY GOOD I HEARD THAT THERE IS LOTS OF LION DANCING THERE!

DANIEL LOW

Hi Albert,

It was part of the opening ceremony. They had 5 floats accompanied by 5 different groups of dancers representing 5 ethnic groups of Sydney. There were the African (Black), Asian (Yellow), Latin-American(Red), European(Green) and Oceania[Islanders](Blue). 2 yellow lions lead the Asian contigent, and they did a few stacking movements.

Infact the ultimate goal of the International Dragon and Lion Dance Association is to get Lion Dance into the Olympics. But before that they will need to get into the Asian games, and that is hard enough.

George

Hi Daniel my name is D.J. I will check with my kung fu brothers in HK and Guangzhou. One of my kung fu brothers mentioned a festival in Guangzhou next month. Maybe it is Wong Fei Hung.

D.J.

Hi guys.

Just a quick question. Does anyone know the name of the manufacturer of the popular black lions?? The ones you usually see in the competitions, with the three mirrors on the forehead. They're usually black and silver, but I've seen variations... but they all have black fur.

This is urgent... !!! Our school is looking for them and if we find them, we have to order 5...

Thanks,

Jason

woaw...wit 3 mirrow int he front...i never seen this....can you link me to a pic ??if u can find one...thanx

Pk

Hmm, actually I was always wondering about these lions myself. I have seen them in tapes used by teams in Malaysia and the Chinese Martial Arts Assoc. from France. The style of music is slightly different, too (possibly the Fatt San version of 18 styles drumming?).

The tape I saw it on was a competition in Malaysia with 6 teams. Teams in order: Malaysia (green), Singapore, KSK, Japan, Taiwan, and France. The first Malaysia group and France used this black-trimmed lion. Other things that happened on the tape: Singpore used the cutest Fatt-Hoc white lion and used a broken bridge cheng, KSK had a broken eye that wouldn't close, Japan had a slight fall and didn't end the music together, Taiwan had a major fall and couldn't continue, and France was a group of all kids. Does anyone know about this competition? It was around 1996 I believe.

Best,

Willy

I asked the organizers if there was going to be a videographer and they siad there isn't. Too bad, because I don't know if I'll be able to go down that weekend either. I'll keep you guys posted if I find anything else out.

Chris

Hi Willy,

I've seen that competition before... Altough I don't think it really a competition... more of a festival of some sorts. There were on scores given out and there weren't any time limits. I was watching it and thought that the routines were really long... so I timed each one and none of them had the same times... all of them were really varied. The first team grapled the poles to get on top right? Like, there were four tall poles and they stood on little brackets and jumped one at a time to get on top. I was surprized to see Singapore using so many summersaults and flips in their routine... If I remember correctly, i think they used around... maybe 4-5?? Also in the begining of the tape, there were like highlights of the tape... but I noticed that there was a multi coloured lion that used a ladder in one of the highlight clips... but their performance wasn't in the tape... ??

Anyways... Someone please help, if you can about the Lions...

Thanks,

Jason