not too sure who makes those lions with three mirrors. but the following sites might lead to somewhere. just check them out.

http://www.oocities.org/lionscave1/Int/CAN.html

check out "Lok's Martial Arts Studio" on the above page.

http://www.oocities.org/Pipeline/Rapids/3838/LionPics.html

http://www.oocities.org/Pipeline/Rapids/3838/Links.html

anyways, good luck.

James

Jason

you can go email Yau Kung Moon. They should know, they have some of those 3 mirror lion heads.

Albert Le

Re: Lok's Martial Arts Studio

Dang, every picture on their site was taken from somewhere else. Yau Kung Moon's website, Jonie's catalog, 'Once Upon a Time in China 3' (with Jet Li), some video footage of the Chinese Nat'l Lion Dance Team (I believe)... why no pictures of their own troupe? Yikes.

Jason, yeah I have that same tape you are talking about. Those performances were hella long! Esp. Japan. Actually I liked the first Malaysian team's performance the best - very creative and no repeated movements. Singapore kinda overdid the somersaults, hehe. And they took ALOT of time. Half of the performances on that tape are very boring. I wish we did get to see the other troupes featured in the beginning clips, too. That multi-colored lion looks really cool, esp. in contrast to the wooden-looking props they used.

Best,

Willy

Whoops. Looked thru the rest of their site and many some original pics. Still wondering why they highjacked so many pictures, tho.

Willy

Yeah, What's with the rip offs?? I don't think Jonie or YKM would be too happy if they found out that they ripped off their pictures and took credit for them... especially YKM's 8 lion pic. They even edited YKM's logo out and put their own name on the drum. That's not very nice of them.

Willy.... Yeah, i was watching the routines on 1/2 speed on fast forward... and I still found it slow!! I mean... how much more can the lion stare down the poles?? they took forever... I think the longest one was singapore's routine... they took like 18 minutes or something... I got soooo tired of the tape... I have no stamina to sit through it again...

Jason

HI all,

I have a quick question. Does anyone know what to call your Si Gong's Sifu? So analogous to your great-grandfather in gung fu titles.

Thanks,

Si Si

Hi Jason,

That type of Lion Head (3 sheild). The sifu who used to make it in Malaysia died, i haven't heard any word on who else carried on his work, or if anyone from his factory did. When i was up in Malaysia in july, Sifu Siow told me about him. It seems while working doing his regular job, he fell of the scaffold and fell to his death.

Here's a group in Hong Kong that uses the 3-mirror heads:

http://www.cca.gov.tw/test/LionDancer/

If you don't read Chinese, this page has their pictures:

http://www.cca.gov.tw/test/LionDancer/photo/photo.html

And this one has their 4 mpg files, the last two of which are pretty impressive:

http://www.cca.gov.tw/test/LionDancer/mpeg/mpeg.html
(don't go by the picture to tell you what the file is of, they don't match. The first on is a very short clip on making a lion head, the second is a gold lion with a dragon dancing in the background, the third is a very acrobatic perfromance on the poles, and the fourth is footage of them playing about 15 drums in unison with other instruments)

Enjoy...

Hi,

The way I know is Si-Tai-Gung.

'Kam'- Wes Cameron

Hi Si Si,

I been taught to address my Si_Gung's sifu as Si-Jo.

-Jj

How about Si-Tai-Gong.

Regards,

Gobert Yeung

>How about Si-Tai-Gong.

Yeah, that's what I use too.

-Chris.

I thought black lions were used to challenge somebody to a fight. Anybody else every hear of this?

Christopher Yau Choy Young

As others have said, Si-Tai Gung is correct. Si-Jo means founder of a system

Stephen

I have. That's what I was told too. I don't think it was exactly to challenge someone to fight, but it is the fighting one. I mean like if you go to a parade or event where there might be other schools, then you should have a black lion in your group of lions just in case a fight breaks out between you and other schools, then you would use the black one to fight.

SI Si

Uh...how about you don't bring any black lions at all and avoid the fight? The point of having a black lion specifically 'to fight' is not as important as avoiding the fight in the first place, don't you think? If a fight breaks out, why would you stop and worry about 'if' you have a black lion or not?

Willy

It's not to fight. Sorry I didn't explain it too well. It's not there to pick a fight. It's more like there to protect the other lions because it is supposed to be the most fierce one. I hope that's a better explanation.

Si Si

Oh, ok. I guess you were talking about its traditional purpose, right? Because when fights break out, I think the last thing on a person's mind is the color of their lion!

Best,

Willy

HEEHEE... yeah I was talking about the traditional part...

Si Si

doesn't every school have a trademark lion, as in the colour? my school has the black lion (and a black & white uniform), and no other school has it. just like we don't have a red lion because another school nearby has it (red & yellow uniform). basically, no schools where I'm from have the same colour lions as any other school. and I would think if you were unfortunate enough to get into a fight, whatever colour lion you have wouldn't matter, cause it's the trademark of your school, and ppl know who you are. btw, I'm from Sydney, so go the aussies! oi oi oi! and no, I have no idea what school performed at the Olympics.

Linda

DOES THIS VIDEO HAVE A RED AND BLACK PLASTIC CASE?

DANIEL

Not many places in Hong Kong. Take a look at Yue Wah at the Jordan MTR station in Kowloon. Then when you go to Guangzhou, see if you can beat that price. If you get a geeo connection in Guangzhou, you should be able to get it cheaper there. The ones from Yue Wah come from Guangzhou.

Be sure to write a trip report when you get back. Have fun.

Stephen

Hey Chris,

this is what I heard. I think you know bout the 3 important lions -red, black and painted lions- which symbolize Kuan Yu, Chang Fei and Liu Pei, they always walk together and they love crowds. In a parade usually they take place in the parade and running around wherever they like. And when another lion(s) doesn't want to give way, they will challenge that lion. That's why they are called the noisy lions. I guess that might happen to show their pride.

Bout the black lion, I have one and the black one is always Fat Shan coz the movement must be fierce and aggresive. I'm not sure whether it is only used for fighting but I think when 2 lions fighting and one of the lion (or both lions) is black, will be more.. expressive? Interesting? (Don't what the best word to desbribe ^^) than having the lions in soft color.

Hope that helps.

care,

Vela

It's like a 5th generation tape... it's been taped off a taped tape... that's been taped off another one....

Jason

Like Vela mentioned, the black lion is part of the "brotherhood" but I forget the actual representations. IF I remember correctly, it's not the black paint but the black beard/hair that is important.

For tradition, a young school or Sifu would use a black haired lion to show his "place" in the Wu Lin (martial community). It's also a symbol that the school would accept challenges. In the Hung Gar tradition, we would also hang butterfly knives on the drum.

So while not "used" for fighting specifically, it's meant to represent a school with a fighting tradition.

Today, however, the color is more like team colors and colors outside the traditions are used so the old meanings are not as important.

Stephen

Stephen, the black lion is represent the Cheng Fei, the younger brother of the Lau, Kwan, and Cheng.

Regards,

Gobert Yeung

Hey George!

Is that true?! This Olympics or the next? Any information you've got please tell us, this is great news!

care,

Vela

Hi Vela,

I was just thinking lah! The aim of the Lion Dance community here is for it to go to the Olympics but I do not see it possible anytime soon (even my lifetime), as even sports like rugby, takraw, cricket is not even in yet. Anyway, maybe it will be possible for it to get into the SEA games as 5 of the ASEAN country has competiting teams.

Regards,

George,

Hi Willy & Jason,

The lion you mentioned is made in Malaysia by a master called Chow Wei Shan. However they are now imitation ones made in China which is cheaper. Anyway,Jason, if you want the 3-mirrors you can always ask the lion dance manufactures to customize one for you.

>The style of music is slightly different, too
>(possibly the Fatt San version of 18 styles drumming?).

Their drum beat originates from the north of Malaysia, and has no relation to the Hock Shan beats.

>The tape I saw it on was a competition in Malaysia with 6 teams.
>It was around 1996 I believe.

Hmmm...I'm not sure as I do some recolection of them. It soumds like a combination of foottage than a real competitions,more like a combination of the tapes from the Malaysian Nationals/S'pore/Genting competitions. The one where KSK broke the eyelid string was in a S'pore invitation competition. The colourful lion was a Malaysian team which used ladders and four bare top poles(no plates), they were in some Malysian competition.. The lions that 'grapple' on to the 4 poles were from the Philipines and I think they competed they in international competitions.

Regards,

George

Hmmm...Just hope that this sort of tradition will be forgoten someday.

George,

>Oh, ok. I guess you were talking about its traditional purpose, right?
>Because when fights break out, I think the last thing on a person's mind
>is the color of their lion!

I've seen those imitation ones. I don't think they look as clean as the actual lion head.

Albert

Hi Linda & all,

What a great time to be in Sydney!

In Malaysia there is not many teams that has 'trademark' lions. This is because there are just not enough different types of lions to go around, unless you customise it. I know of a team that has silver lions with white upper eyelid fur and black lower eyelid fur. Kun Seng keng use exclusively silver lions (except for a gold and a purple donated to them), and this because the team leader like the colors, but they do not have exclusive rights to it. Yau Koon Moon's lion are always yellow. My team here has decided to use only one color-lazer purple for our future lions, as not only for 'trademark' but also to save cost in buying pants.

What type of black lion do you have? As far as I know there are 2 different traditional balck lions; Black fur & balck/white body - Chang Fei, and black fur with green body - Zhau Zee Lung. The other more 'uncommon' lions: Black fur silver lion - Lui Pu, White fur yellow lion - Wang Chung, White fur purple lion - Ma Chau. Maybe one day they will have a Kung Ming & Chao Zao lions(even if they are not wariors)!

Anyway, good job on the Olympics, Aussies! It is so good to see Lion dance being recognized too.

George,
Malaysia

Hi,

We have the Chang Fei lion. It's alot easier for teams in Sydney to have different colour lions, because there's not that many schools who perform the lion dance. We also tend to stick within the vicinity of our kung fu schools as well. For example, during chinese new year, the schools in my area only dance down here in the suburbs, while the ones in the city stick to that area. if there are the same colour lions, it's not the same type. Most schools tend to stick to the traditional colours, with slight variations in style, though I have a seen a school with 5 lions, all of which were non traditional colours.

Linda

Where have all the people gone?

Is there some holiday I don't know about?? ;-)

Regards,

Serhat

whew! I thought it was me--I thought I got deleted from the list--it was a quiet weekend.

chuck

Hi Serhat,

Good question... I don't know about everyone else, but I've been soooo busy with school... Havn't had time for anything... first time I've checked my main in a week!

Jason

Hi Jason and all,

That's true...colege just started class in Seattle this Monday. I just had 30 min. to check my e-mail today....haven't read them all yet....hihi.

To all that are going back to school, have fun and learn lots! d:-D

Vo Minh Duc

Hi All,

Well I agree, the list has been pretty quiet. Now, I have been pretty good in the past at starting controversies (not intentionally)ha ha, so here it goes.

I was checking the archives (yes, the infamous archives) and came across someone asking about Lai Si for Lion dance performances (someone recently asked about this as well). It seems that many members of the list are reluctant to talk about this. Maybe it has something to do with discussing money not being the thing to do (as you would not ask someone how much they make at their job). But I think that new lion Dance groups need this type of information (and amounts), if we are to support them in their efforts. So here goes - in my experience, the following can be used as a guideline: new groups charge less than established groups, the more difficult and long the dance -the more is charged, perhaps more is charged for the particular celebration the performance is for ie. birthday party vs Chinese New Year, rich guys (if any of you are rich - sorry about that!) are charged more (since they can afford it), charities are done for free, less is charged if you are getting a meal from the team from the hiring person, more is charged if you are doing both a Lion Dance and a Kung Fu demo.,...to name a few.

Now for amounts...ahmm....(probably differs as to city etc.) .. New group $50 to $75 for a 8 to 10 minute dance for a business, party etc. at any time of the year except new years when lets say $100 would be given, Established group, $100 to $150 for any occasion or any time of the year except New Year would be $150 to $250 (no meal provided)- $100 to $150 if meal is provided, Grand opening of a business (requiring a longer and probably more difficult dance - $250 to $300 (maybe more if the company is big and well off), Lion dance and Kung Fu Demo - $300-$500...and at New Year...lets say in a restaurant - you would also get Lai Si from patrons of the restaurant...how much...depends on the generosity (and how much they are in need of good luck or how much they want to retain the luck they have been having).

Well, thats my perspective in Little ol' Winnipeg, Canada...What about the rest of You!?

All the Best

'Kam'-Wes Cameron

Thanks for a good post Wes. I'm over in Edmonton, Canada. For those who don't know, we're a city of about 1 million people, with about 10% of those being Chinese and Vietnamese. We have about 12-15 kung fu clubs, and around 5 lion dance teams.

I've always been curious about what kind of money the different businesses put out, and what kind of money the teams bring in. We don't have many big Chinese businesses here, and the clubs just preform the most basic routines.

At new years, all of the teams go up and down Chinatown. Some shops put out $20-$50 for each team, but some of the less successful shops put out $5. For a normal dance, something around $100 and a meal for the team is standard fare. The biggest shows were the grand opening of a Casino (5 teams received about $350 each and meals), and the grand opening of a big grocery store (my ex team received $800, meals, and a new lion head and tail).

From what I hear from friends in Vancouver, they can make enough to operate for the whole year from just two weeks of dancing at new years. Mostly because of the huge Chinese population there and the large number of succesful businesses. Nobody will talk about what they make though, everyone is very hush-hush about it.

Thanks,

Paul