Hi Paul

Good info! Wish we had a big grocery store like that! $5?! - no matter how poor the business, I believe that $5 is way, way too low, but that is just my thinking.

All the Best!

'Kam' - Wes

Okay, not many people seem to be biting at the Lai Si question, so how about this for a discussion starter:

What do you think it would take to get lion dancing into the olympics?

I've given it quite a bit of thought lately and here's some of my conclusions. Keep in mind that I'm not asking us to change our regular performances--I love the traditional routines and the competition routines, but I'm thinking what would make lion dancing appeal to a wider audience.

1) short routines
Very short attention spans are common these days and the gymnastics/modern dance/ice skating and similar routines are all about 5-10 minutes at the most. Any longer and people will start to get bored. This would mean a break from traditional routines and getting rid of a long opening and closing bowing sequence. Maybe 3 quick head nods, a short cheng routine on jongs, and ending once the cheng is eaten.

2) 2 teams competing at the same time
Not a fight, more like an obstacle course--first one to the cheng wins, or give points for how creatively each overcomes the obstacles and the one with the most points wins. This is the only way to get a longer routine in and not lose people. If you watched the olympics the only events that lasted a long time that people watched were more competitive type events like tennis, soccer, basketball, etc. The individual events (one lion performing is "individual" to me) that went long made people change channels.

3) Compulsory Routines
This wasn't a big hit with people on the list, but if there were standard routines and everyone did the same routine it would be the team that did it with the most skill and flair who would win. It would also make it easier to judge. Wushu competitions have standard forms that people have to use, so does gymnastics, why not lion dancing? There could even be several different categories of competition like floor routine, pole routine, puzzle, compulsory and freestyle.

4) Less Chinese People
Okay, here's where I get into trouble for seeming like a racist. :) Read this carefully before you respond so you understand where I'm coming from...

Historically Chinese people are very exclusive. By that I mean we don't like our "secrets" getting out to non-Chinese. Look at the roots of Gung Fu outside of China--everywhere it's the same story: it was passed down from generation to generation of Chinese, the people who had the vision to open it up to "outsiders" were looked down on, outcast, and attacked.

The same thing is happening with lion dancing, but in a more subtle way. Look at the international competitions: there are teams from all over the world, but no non-Asians, and probably 90% ethnic Chinese. Here in Los Angeles largest lion dance groups are predominantly Chinese, there are smaller ones attached to martial arts studios that have non-asian members, but they aren't the ones Chinese people hire to to major events. Same story in San Diego where I used to live, and I'm sure it's the same in San Francisco and all over the world. In San Diego one sifu I studied under for a short time said he opened his studio to anyone, and he did have number of African-American and Euro-American students, but he always taught the Chinese students a little "extra." He would even tell us privately that he was teaching us more because we were Chinese.

If lion dancing is going to catch on as an olympic sport there can be no racist feelings that this is "our" (Chinese) sport and we will dominate it, but we have to share it and see that it is okay for other ethnic groups to participate.

I was watching the olympics with some of my friends and one of them commented that the American team should win basketball because it's "our sport--we invented it." I disagree. It's this kind of egotistical thinking that keeps sports from spreading.

But the fault isn't all with the Chinese. Most non-Chinese learn Gung Fu for different reasons than to keep the old traditions alive, and don't want to learn lion dancing. This is a shame--if we are going to take lion dancing global, we need global participation.

Okay, those are most of my thoughts on it. Let me have your criticisms...

Chris

Like to share something. East West Kung Fu of San Jose was the first predominantly Non-Asian(white) Lion dance team started by David Thomas. They were successful a lion dance team. Only one thing kept them from becoming better, racism against non-asians. They are no longer around as a team. They had to a lot of getting around to do performances, but i wont get into details of how they did it. a lot of discrimination against them by others.

BY THE WAY, anybody going to Double Ten in San Francisco? It's this Saturday.

Albert

I think the SEA Games should consider it as part of their Games. Maybe the PanAm Games as well. These smaller organizations could help promote LD on the international market. If the IOC saw LD as a popular competition, then maybe they would consider it for the Olympics.

In any case, having LD appear at other international events would only help LD in the future. These current "international" LD championships aren't "open" as one might think. You need to be an invited guest from the host/sponsoring organization.

In the Olympic spirit, LD would be truly open to any team. So, I guess the current "intl" LD competitions need to be more cognizant of their exclusive criteria.....

WaZ uP....i like this idea...two team competing at the sametime..but of coruse that dangeorus.....and people mit get hurt.....but i like it...sound good.....io ya...bout the domination part....not to be racist..im pretty sure chiesne would dominate it...but tink bout it....there is lots of chinese in other countries too...so it would be kinda fair....so it would be pretty hard to see which country would win witout lettin them compete first...blah sorrie if it dont make sense...im kinda tired...and kinda hard to explain wut im saying....blah...hope ya did understand though...jus wanted to add to the list..thats all bai bai

Pk

Hi Chris, Well I'm all for lion dance in the olympics. But the first and most important thing that we have to look at is weather the people in charge of the olympics, are they going to look at lion dancing as a sport? If we can show everyone and have them look at it as a sport, then and only then will we have a chance of getting into the games and not just part of the opening and or closing show for the Olympic games. I maybe wrong and then again I maybe right but this is just my feeling and the way that I see it if it is going to happen.

Tony S.

Hi Chris and Everyone,

I thought you put out a very good post. I agree with most of it. I think that this exclusiveness thing has to go the way of the dinosaur. Chinese people learn many, many things, taught without reserve, that originated from Non-Chinese countries. It has to go both ways and hopefully this will be with the majority of Chinese people in the future (hopefully near). I believe there are many Chinese who also are interested in Kung fu but not interested in Lion Dance, but there probably are more Non-Chinese who are interested to watch it, but not perform. However, there are also many Non-Chinese who are interested in performing and who are very good at it and have had very good teachers - both Chinese and Non-Chinese - I think that this sharing is just great and the Si Fu who teach other than their own race/culture, advanced in Spirit!

I hope that Lion Dance never goes the way of Contemporary Wu Shu - which in my knowledge and experience has really detracted from what true, traditional Kung Fu is for and what it is supposed to achieve for the practitioner and society (body, mind, spirit, self-defense, self-development and the betterment of society etc.). I will be a Traditional Kung Fu Si Fu and martial artist always, as this is where it is really at and what it is all about. As such, I believe in keeping up, continuing with and continuing to learn the customs associated with traditional Kung Fu and Lion Dance.

All the best!

'Kam' - Wes Cameron

The two lions competiting over a cheng sounds cool. Kinda like a setup in Young Masters I think it was with all the baskets.

Also, anybody could learn liondance. Just that they have to find a school that will take them in, or make one themselves! It's just like Chinese people playing basketball! The China team had the "great wall of china" for their front line in the Olympics, but they couldn't do anything!

Since Judo, and TKD are in the Olympics, the next thing to come in is liondance! One's Japenese, and one's korean, we're missing a Chinese one!!

btw, I think Canadians invented basketball. Just the US kicks ass at it.

-Tim

psh! CANADIANS? yeah right. Americans created basketball! Canadians creating basketball? that's absurd.

HAHAH

albert

Well.. some say basketball is based on ollamalitzli.. that crazy 16th C. Aztec game where all the losers had their heads chopped off. Obviously there's been some changes through the centuries... ;-)

g

Not absurd at all. Basketball was created by a Canadian by the name of James Naismith. Naismith was in Massachusetts (I think..) when he created the game. So basketball was created by a Canadian in the States.

Try:

http://inventors.about.com/science/inventors/library/inventors/blbasketball.htm?terms=basketball

Cheers.

Eric

Geoff-I'd pay money to see them bring that game to the Olympics!!!

Oh man. i got to eat some humbodlt pie for that. well he was at least aided by an american when he developed basketball.

Albert,

I wrote a term paper about the invetion of basket ball. It was created by Professor James Naismith who was educated in my home town of Montreal. and later went to teach physical education in the states. He created it to keep his students busy in the winter. Anyways... It was a CANADIAN who invented basket ball, who happened to be in the states... Anyways, this isn't a basketball list, so lets try and keep off this topic.

Oh yeah...

>> psh! CANADIANS? yeah right. Americans created basketball! Canadians
>> creating basketball? that's absurd.

I'm quit offened by the connotation and attitude in your post.... Please Keep in mind that not everyone on the mailing list is from the states...

Jason

Hello Fellow Lion Dancers

I think it ' ll be great if lion dancing could go into the olympics . But , I do think that the organizers , of the Olympics , will have to think about it first . But other than that it ' s a great idea .

Then that way alot of lion dance clubs , from all over the world . Can compete against eachother . It ' ll be fun . Because to me lion dancing can be considered a sport , because of the fact that it takes a strong mentality , physical conditioning , agility . Just like any other sports . The only difference is that in lion dancing you ' re actually bringing an imaginary animal , the lion , to life . It ' ll bring excitement among spectators or observers . Other type of sports it deals with ball of any type depending on the type of sports that is involved with the olympics . But , I hope that lion dancing can make it to the olympics .

Laine

Hello Again Fellow Lion Dancers

In Honolulu Hawaii today there approximatey 9 Lion Dance clubs . Some of these clubs are supported by the chinese societies in Hawaii , so they receive good money to buy the lion heads they like . For performances , they range from $ 100.00 , $ 150 .00 per lion head , $ 300 .00 for proffessional lion dance quality . So every cub has their own prices for lion dance performances .

For weddings or any type of special occasons where lion dance is strongly requested . The chairman or representative of the club will have to negotiate with the person who requested the performance . Then bookings will take place .

In Hawaii , especially certain kung fu clubs are always busy with lion dances . They get fed with lots of $ 1.00 bills along with their normal fee that they charge or negotiate . But lion dancing is always a favorite type entertainment for people living in Hawaii like me . With certain clubs doing their lion dance championships routines either on the streets or on stage , it brings excitement among the spectators , not knowing what ' s going to happen next . Especially when the tail player is lifting up the head player as they are doing their lion dance routines .

The li si or lai si after the performance , goes back the club for reinvesting in lion dance equipments . But today , in hawaii although lion dance equipments can be very expensive . The representative of different kung fu clubs , still will negotiate with the person whose requesting the performance or will have their own standard fee . Couple months prior to chinese new year , the representative of certain kung fu / lion dance clubs . Will either go up to Hong Kong , China , or malaysia to go shopping for lion heads . Or they ' ll contact a their connections in Hong kong , China or malaysia . To inquire about lion heads . For the upcoming chinese new year .

Because , the kung fu / lion dance clubs in Hawaii today would like to play with a new lion head but they still utilize their old lion heads . But today , lion heads are becoming alot more attractive and beautiful depending on where you get your lion heads from , so that's why it ' s great .

The lion dance clubs that are located in Hawaii today are

The Lung Kong Physical Culture Club
Kuo Min Tang Physical Culture Club
Chinese Physical Culture Assn . ( Jung Mo Tai Ouk Oui ) in chinese
Gee Yung International Martial Arts & Lion Dance Assn .
Kong ' s Sil Lum Pai Kung Fu Assn .
Chinese Lion Dance Assn .
Au ' s Shaolin Arts Assn .
Kokohead Chinese Martial Arts Academy
Asian Lion Dance Group

Take care .

Laine

P.S. Before I forget thank you to Mr . Ernie Loo for sharing the lion dance performance schedule for his club . Thank you Ernie .

Fellow lion Dancers

In Hawaii , For chinese new year the merchants will decide how much to put in the lai si . Because the shopping centers in hawaii , also organizes their own chinese new year festivities . And the merchants involve in the shopping center because they are also store owners . Will also decide upon how much they would like to put into the lai si .

Some clubs feed their lion dancers at their club house . Some take the students to the restaurant or drive inn , so it all depends on what the club would like to do after the performance . For performance where the lion dancers is fed by the people who requested the performance is also negotiatable too . And also have their own standard fee , regardless if the lion dancers are being fed or not . But most likely seeing how hard the lion dancers worked to make the performance possible . The people who requested the performance will usually offer food to the lion dancers anyway . Take care .

Laine

Sorry. guess some of you are not use to the American/Canadian Humor.

As a non-profit group in Honolulu, the Chinese Physical Culture Assn., Lung Kong, and Kuo Min Tang do not "charge" for lion dancing. IRS allows us to dance for donations only in order to maintain our 501-C3 non-profit status. Therefore, these clubs don't "charge" for lion dancing.

Hi Guys & Gals,

Glad to see this topic being discussed, altough it looks like it has stirred up much Nationalism about another sport :).

Chris has many good points, and I just have the following comments:
For 2 lions from 2 different teams competing at the same time, the music will be too incoherent to the dancers and the judges. I also do not think there is a need for compulsary competitions, as in pole jumping competitions compulsory/fundimental moves like stacks & stances are also judge upon.

It has always been the International Dragon & Lion Dance Association (IDLDA)ultimate objective to get Dragon and Lion Dance into the Olympics. However, they face many obstacle both technically and politically. However, I think they have done the first step in that they have came up with a set of rules which are very much like a 'common' sport. I see it close to gymnastic/dance sport. Teams competing is also getting more 'professional' in treating it as a sport.The only major difference is that there is live accompanying music which is very important to the whole dance and is judged upon. It is a bit easier for Dragon Dance as teams has used recorder music for competition.

It is true that current International competitions(as compared to Invitational competitions where it is closed) are not as 'open' as it should be, but it is not due to 'exclusiveness'. It is because that there are so few LD National Associations where teams can be selected through national competitions. In the recent Genting World Champs only Malaysia, Hong Kong, Macau and Singapore (I think)has teams from their national associations. That is why one of the jobs of the IDLDA is to help more countries form UNITED national assocations. However I think they face a big challeenge as LD teams are not known for their openess towards unity.

I agree that lion dance must be opened by all people, as it is not only benefectual for its promotions but also essecianly for its survival. It is sad to say but over here more and more Chinese are losing interest in this art. In the recent Genting competitions, Thailand has a mostly non-chinese team, and USA, UK, France has non-chinese in their team. In my home state, Sabah, in Malaysia, there are 2 groups who has mostly non chinese members. But unfortunately that there are just too few examples. Of course, the Chinese themselves are not very keen in sharing it. The Cantonese once even would never teach LD to other Chinese from different dialect groups as they see it as their exclusive heritage. For your infomation, Master Siow is Teochew. The selfishness of the Chinese is not the only obstacle as there is also xenophobia form other races(especially from the majority races in Malaysia). Another is that people tend to make LD too rooted in Chinese culture and tradition and this creacts a big gap for other races.

Another obstacle I see is that there are people who see LD as a purely cultural activity while there are some who see it as sport. The two idea can co-exist but not enough people can do do that.

As for Chinese domination, I would say that the Chinese are just lucky now as so few other races do LD. There is never any reasons that the people from a culture/country that creacted something that they will excel at it. It just so happens that the current LD competitions favours people with smaller physique. That is also why, sadly, the Japanese team cannot win the Rugby world cup and the Chinese in Basket Ball. LD originated form China, but nobody in the LD scene would claimed that China is the best in the LD for this moment in time. 'The Chinese invented gun-powder but used it for fireworks while the Europeans used it for guns'. What is important is the one who is willing to innovate rather that the one who invented it.

Well, that's all from me. Happy lion dancing!

George
Malaysia

The idea of having lion dancing as an olympic event is interesting, but keep in mind that the participants will optimize their performance and skills towards the evaluation criteria defined by the rules.

As George points out, one of the first steps is defining a set of rules. It is these rules and how they are defined or modified which will determine the future of the lion dance.

We've seen this in the tae kwon do and how rapidly it has changed during the last two decades. If you noticed the latest sparring competitions, you will remember that many competitors sparred with the trailing arm hanging limply down and slightly away from the body. A really bad thing(tm) in a fight where people are trying to hurt each other, but in a well padded sparring match for points taking hits/kicks to the arms and legs is a defensive strategy. Fencing has also taken a big change since the 1920's if you look at the old pictures.

The IDLDA may have to make improvements to the rules in several steps, but before these rules are defined, the goals of these rules must be defined. Specifically, what is it we are trying to show in a performance? Perhaps a good foundation of kungfu, with solid stances, stamina, coordination (individual, lion and team), balance, personality of the lion, etc. How can the accompanying kung fu demonstration be judged without crossing into the realm of 'wu shu'?

Or, perhaps, the amount of luck/blessings bestowed by the performance can be identified and graded. ;)

-Lars

No disrespect...It's a joyful discovery to learn that one has to eat humble pie less often when one's mouth ________________ (fill in the blank with non-offensive language).

I'm pretty sure he intended no offense to anyone. This is a good lesson to us on being careful not to make snap judgements and not to cling on to preconceived notions as if they were absolute truths.

People have spread out all over the world this past century, taking arts and cultures with them. For example, Chinese people moving to America...are their kids American? Yes. Are they Chinese? Yes...well, hmm. The labels for national origin are becoming less and less meaningful as the world becomes smaller and smaller.

Patriotism is great, but it shouldn't equate with arrogance. Let's not forget to keep our minds open to learning things that we might not know everything about. Our prejudices and preconceived notions about people are useless things that only serve to hold us back...let them go. Excessive pride and complacency also prevent us from progressing. Those very human, very prevalent characteristics may be in all of us to some degree. Let's ask ourselves the question, "Has excessive pride and complacency ever gotten me closer to where I want to be?" If we answer "no", why hang onto those traits?

Cor