Good points, Corey. For example, I feel bad for my Chinese friends that are here in the US. If they hang out with non-Chinese people, their friends accuse them of not being Chinese enough. If they hang out with those kinds of Chinese people, they have a hard time learning how to fit in with mainstream culture. Those type of people who try to drag you down are usually the ignorant people that never get anywhere anyways. Why would they insist on ABC's (american born chinese) segregate themselves from other 'Americans'? I've always told them, they're American's too! I have had a little of the same happen with me, since I'm a Canadian (by birth), but have lived in the states for a long time. People here may poke fun at me because I'm a Canadian, and people up in Canada make comments about how I'm just like an American. It's funny.. but I don't let it bother me much.

As a non-profit group, you guys should still be allowed to raise funds for equipment replacement. you are not necessarly making profit if you put it toward replacing equipment to keep the team running.

Albert

That's not what I meant. We take in the money and it does go towards equipment and practice hall rental. However, when people ask how much do you charge, we respond by telling people that its a donation. We don't "charge" per say, but we "ask them for a certain donation". If we ask for $150, and all we get is $100, there is nothing we can do because its a "donation".

That's my point. We don't use the word "charge". We trust that people who really want good luck will contribute generously. The more lai see you give, the more good luck to you!!

Out of curiosity what is the advantage of being non-profit? Do u get a grant from a sponsor?

The group I am in charge for gigs, but all the money just goes back to the club to buy equipment and dinner after a gig. We don't charge for membership. I think in the bay area, if you don't charge and just ask for donations, it will take at least 3 or 4 gigs to purchase a new head.

Deuces: For small groups, wayyyyyy more than that. But if you're a big time group like YKM or White Crane, I think they charge like $400 for a 2 lion show. My friend's cousin's wedding had a performance in New Asia restaurant in Chinatown done by White Crane. They did a 1 hour show which included a Dragon, a pole setup and a regular traditional routine. Can you imagine how much they would've charged with that? I heard from a friend of mine who's cousin's group charges something like a grand for doing a pole routine. A grand!

As you take in more money, if you're not set up as a corporation, the government will get suspicious. They're going to see you as generating income and not paying taxes. For large organizations, they can generate between 20-30 thousand dollars a year. When the government finds out about this money, they expect their share. That is why being set up as a non-profit, you are exempt from paying a lot of taxes. Having the corporate structure is also important when it comes to liability because people do get hurt doing kung fu and lion dance - believe it or not. And also, splitting up the money upon the players may put each person in trouble for tax evasion. As the group leader, you will also be considered as their employer if they get money from you. And you could get hit with employment issues such as taxes and benefits.

Sorry to kill the joy of lion dancing...Its something to think about, especially for the larger groups in the US....I'm not familiar with taxes and liability in other countries.....

Hey all,

Being a new LDer I don't usually have much to offer here, but now we are touching on a subject that I've had some experience in... Chinese arts for non-Chinese! I am not Chinese--and I don't have a clue as to why I am so into stuff Chinese. I'm studying Chinese Lanugage, I've studied Chinese history and philosophy/religion since 1969, I study and teach Hung Gar--but I'm not Chinese.

Not too long ago, four Chinese kids joined our club. Their parents made them join. It was really an awful experience for everyone, because the kids really didn't want to learn kungfu. In fact, they didn't want to have anything to do with anything Chinese. They were having a hard time gaining acceptance among school mates and neighbors, and they just wanted to be seen as Americans. They wanted to learn baseball and football and stuff like that. The parents on the other hand wanted their kids to learn about the culture that is their heritage. I finally had to put a stop to it all for the sake of the kids.

I explained to the parents that they should wait and allow the kids to develop an interest in the culture rather than having it jammed down their throats.

Another interesting situation is that one of my students who is Chinese says his main reason for being part of our club is so he can show other Chinese that there's nothing wrong with learning from a non-Chinese sifu. He said that when he saw our club performing (kungfu now, lion dance soon) at Milwaukee's Asian Moon Festival last May, some Chinese spectators made derogatory remarks about the sifu being non-Chinese. His decision shows forward thinking.

Bigotry, unfortunately, is universal. It's something we all have to deal with from both sides, but it is really refreshing to find people who can see beyond racial or cultural boundaries. I know that I have a distinct disadvantage trying to adopt Chinese customs, but I don't discourage easily. In our club we have blacks, whites, hispanics, Chinese, Koreans, Russians, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, and Moslems. And my greatest hope and source of pride is knowing that my young students have a chance, first hand, to overcome the prejudices of others as well as their own prejudices.

chuck

well, from what i know, it means your tax exempt. if you were making profit, you would have to pay tax like any other business would.

Our club is almost like you describe. Actually, I've noticed somthing kind of funny in the last 12 years. When I first started, the class was mostly like you describe above. There were maybe 2% Chinese, and the rest non-Asian.. and that's in Chinatown with a Chinese sifu. I thought that was funny back then.. but I was prejudiced back then and thought that since you couldn't really make money at kung-fu, the Chinese parents thought that it would be a waste of time for their kids to learn. That was my prejudice. But, nowadays, there are many more people of Asian desent, and many fewer whites! I don't know why that is, but I was hoping it's because the parents don't want their kids to loose their culture.

Geoff

it might be due to some pop culture influences. ie: jet li and jackie chan their popularity has increaseed internationally over the years.

Hi All,

Yah...$5 is a low...but our team have had shops that put out an empty Red envelop during Chinese New Year. Yes, it is funny to think about it but it suggest how strong they value our services...and it suggest how much they support the art of liondancing...Oh, I am in Seattle Wa. I don't know if any other team in Seattle (that are on this list) have this problem too.

Best wishes,

Vo Minh Duc

i'd sure hate to lai si while i'm lion dancing.

Hi Lars & guys,

I think the main goal of the rule are to have 'good/perfect' lion dance performance, yet trying to define 'good' is difficult and contenously changing. I think perfection is stressed heavily, as in the rules any mistakes are penalised severely. No team has ever won when they made a mistake, no matter how small the mistake is. The IDLDA rules are also changing as to find the 'best' one according to the times. For example, the points awarded to form is now the same for difficulities, as to make LD move away from just emphasizing on stunts/aerobatics.

However, the rules never emphasis on 'a good foundation of kungfu/wu shu', although there are points awarded for stances. The rules emphasise the 'dance' in LD and has little or nothing to do with kung fu.

>Or, perhaps, the amount of luck/blessings bestowed by
>the performance can be identified and graded. ;)

I guess that is the reasons why pole competition is so much more popular compared to traditional competition.

George

Hi Fellow Lion Dancers

I apologize for sharing with you the wrong infomation about the kung fu / lion dance clubs in Hawaii . Now , you heard all from Sherman Wong . Thanks Sherman , for giving the right infomation in Lai Si In Hawaii.

Laine

hi everyone

my name's erick. i was just wondering bout a few things. where can i get a drum that's bout 26 to 30 inches really cheap? cause it's for a my highschool. we have a dragon team and we currantly have an old small donated drum and some really old cymbals. the drum is gonna fall apart soon and i need to find a big cheap drum soo casue our budget it rather low . also i wanted to see it anyone knows what type of paint i should use to repair my lion head. i want it to dry fast and i want it to be a high gloss finish and mosty important waterpoof. please respond as soon as possible thanx everyone

erick

hey everyone it's erick again

i forgot to tell you all that i live in the S.F bay area so that's were i need to find a drum and a few pairs of cymbals. i'ver heard og a few places and i checked online but like that prices are still rather high. is there anyway to get them cheaper? does any place willing to bargan?

B

Hey...im pretty sure most of yall seen the movie...once upon a time in china 3.....that movie has lots of lions in it...but some look weird and funnie....and im jus wondering....if those lions are real lions??...or jus made up stuff??.....and if tehre really a lion as big as the one they show at the end of the movie??...well thas all

Pk

Hey Pk,

There really is a lion as big as the one at the end of the movie. I've never seen it in person, but if you check this site out: http://www.cca.gov.tw/test/LionDancer/ and go to their picture page, the first picture has a giant lion in the background. It's behind a dragon head and it's still bigger. It's standing next to a golden lion that would easily fit inside the mouth of the bigger lion.

For those of us who don't read Chinese the picture page is the forth link down on the left-hand side of the page.

Can you imagine doing a pole routine with that head? :)

Chris

If darwell don't have any drums, then go to jonie's uniforms for the next best deal. by the way, to you what is cheap? chances of a bargain is rather small. big drum and cheap don't usually go together. if you want a big drum you gonna have to spend a little more money. im not sure what paint you should use, but avoid temperate paints. they add a lot more weight. best to go ask at a local art store.

Albert

that was a pretty good idea. i was gonna go to jonie's first today but i called then to see if they had any stock on the drums and stuff but jonie was not even there. the girl sed that she was gonna be back late next week. so i ended up going to darwells. the lady was very nice andshe showed us to the "show room" there was like at least ten drums there. and the medium ( 23") sold for $175 and the big one (26") sold for $225 i put one on hold to check our budget. they were all out of cymbals but i still asked bout the price. she sed the were $80 for a pair. how long ago were they selling for $40?? that seems really unreasonable for cymbals. i'm sure if i go them in china they would be much cheaper.

erick

The lady at Darwell is Corine Lai. You can email them at Darwell@rocketmail.com

One more place to try, though price is somewhat higher is clarion at info@clarionmusic.com

Sherman

Ernie:

I noticed Lung Kong has Fat San heads now. You guys were always faithful Sang Wo Loong customers. Are they out of business? The Fat San heads are a lot nicer now days compaired to before and a lot cheaper then Sang Wo Loong.

Sherman

we picked up the cymbals for $40 a pair almost a year ago. Talk to the dude michael, tell him your friend picked it up for $40 a pair. everything in china is cheaper, it's just a matter of bringing them back.

good luck

B

yea she said that she would check when they are gonna get more cymbals in and she's gonna call me. so i'll ask bout that but i'm thinking since it was a year ago it might be harder to get a good price . but thanx

Hi all,

it's just my opinion... but I feel both happy and unhappy watching Once Upon A Time in China 3. Happy to see Liondance as the main topic, unhappy to watch the lions being kicked and thrown. Really unresfectful.

Vela

on that movie, jet li used a white lion i heard that a white lion represents and is used for funerals (death) is that true?

B

B,

The white lion can be used for funerals. It is used when the sifu passes on or when some head of state request it. It is very, very seldom used in Hawaii. Our club used it once, when our lion dance sifu passed away. When it is used for funerals, all the red markings have to be removed, especially the red ribbon on his horn. His mirror must be covered up. The lion actions are very subdued and slow like in mourning. His head is never held up high and mostly looking straight ahead or at the ground. All signs of the color red are covered up or removed. In it's place is the white cloth. The drum is wrapped in white and the drumsticks have white tassels and are muffled when played. Cymbals and gongs are not used at all.

The white lion also represents General Chu Tze Lung. He was one of four generals that united in battle against corrupt ancient Chinese government. We use the white lion in joyous occasions like his birthday or other events where the important person happens to have the last name of Chu. For your information, the other three generals have colors representing them also. They are King Lau Bei which is the gold color lion. General Kwan Kung which is the red and black lion. General Chong Fe which is the black lion. These colors were based on what the four generals wore on their overcoat when they banded together on the hill of Lung Kong to become blood brothers during the Three Kingdoms circa 200 A.D. If you are more interested, I can get into more details.

Ernie

Ernie & all,

That's also what I've heard about white lions at funerals. Dr. Hu's book explains it quite well. This is similar to what Wong Fei Hong does in the Once Upon a Time in China series when his friend gets killed. But in Jackie Chan's First Strike there is a funeral procession through the city with white lions and even a dragon. The lions are not all white, they have black trim, and they quite often lift their heads and even jump into the air. Of course Jackie Chan's movies aren't targeted toward an audience that would know the difference.

BTW-I feel the same as Vela watching OUATIC 3 the dissrespect for the lions in the opening scene made a powerful statement on how "bad" the bad guys were and the society's dedication to save "the lion head of the ancestors" shows how closely related the lion dance is to the spirit and life of the organization. In the closing lion dance competition I thought it was a good portrayal of some of the lion dance traditions, especially the lion's horn representing the lion's power. So when Wong Fei Hong goes to defeat the other lion he pulls its horn off and that symbolizes its death.

Just some thoughts,

Chris

which wong fei hong movie is it that his friend dies

thanks

If i were on a low budget like, i'd take the drum. You are not gonna it any cheaper in the bay area. As for cymbals, besides the 40 dollars one, jonie's is the next best deal. 75 dollars a pair.

Albert

Hmmm, you must have joined the list recently. A few months ago I asked the same question and the answer is:

Once Upon a Time in China part 4. I didn't even know there was a part 4 before. It doesn't have Jet Li in it, it's Zhao Wen Zhou playing Wong Fei Hong.

Hello

thanx foreveryone who responded to this subject...but in my view...i tink the kickin and the disrespectful stuff done to the lion was jus to show how it was bak than..because my dad told me that bak than....other group would battle other groups to see who were better...and this still sometime happen in vietnam he says...but i don tknow...this is wut i heard frm my dad.....yes the white lion usually represent funeral matter...but the one he used on ouatic 3...that one wasnt really a funeral lion...the one on part 4 is......well thats all for now..bai bai

Pk

PS- thanx chris for givin me the website to the lion...that sure is a big lion...i would hate to be doin that one...thx again.

HEy I was wondering if anyone on the group ever had a experience of a fight encountered with anotehr group during a liondance. Please let me know, i would like to ehar the story

HEy I was wondering if anyone on the group ever had a experience of a fight encountered with anotehr group during a liondance. Please let me know, i would like to ehar the story

i never even heard of that place. where is it? have u been there? tell me about it i wanna know. and also anything you know about gangs that u know thanks bye

I'm not sure if they still have this festival at Marysville anymore. A long time ago they had this thing where lion dance groups would compete for this rings. The rings represented who was the best, (power)

It did not involve lion heads, just lion dance participants. It even involved pushing, kicking,fighting,weapons etc. Even the gangsters would come to show their clout. If you ever read that book by Bill Lee "chinese playground" he talks about it also. Marysville I believe is north of San Francisco, so the major crews like YKM and White Crane i think were there as well. A lot of cheating took place to win the rings.

I'm not sure what the meaning and reasoning for all this was for. Hopefully an elder on this list can explain it better than myself.

Why all the interest in Gangs on this list. The list is not a place for gangs, but for Lion Dancers and those interested in Lion Dance. Gangs are only for those guys who do not have a strong mind, spirit and character of their own and so they need the identity of a 'gang' to give them identity and to help cover up their own cowardness. I noticed that Deuces 888 is used as an e address. Deuces is a gang name here in Wpg., but perhaps it does not have the same meaning to the guy using it on this site.

Gang members do not belong on this list!

'Kam' - Wes Cameron,Si Fu

Amen!

Vinh Nguyen

First of all, i only brought up the subject of marysville competition which involves lion dance groups. It so happens that gangs were in the competition also. I am not promoting gangs. My screen name has to do with my birthdate, Month of Feb and 2nd day of Feb, that's why i chose it. I am not gang affliated, so I resent your email accusation. If anything, refer to K1leY4evr@aol.com's e-mail where he asked for info on gangs, not me. I was merely asking if anyone ever participated in the Marysville event.