hey u need to chill out shaolin. you gotta know and understand cuz this is a fact. some liondance groups have many gangmembers in them. this board is for discussion about liondance i agree. but it is also for people to talk. if you dont like the topic. then dont read it. whats the big deal. and why you have to bring out deuces888 out for? so wut if its a gangname. how is it bothering you? he is not gangbanging on the list.i asked him a question and he answered. and for you saying gangs shouldnt be on this list. that is so wrong. a gang is human too. they can have interest in the liondance. liondance is not made for a isolated crowd of people., its for those who have interest, have the skills, and know the morals behind it.

As far as gangs and triads go it is a part of the culture and history, some systems are being kept alive by triads in Hong Kong so it doesn't seem as though we should discriminate against them out of hand.

Bruce

Sorry never had happend.

I thought there was only one triad--heaven earth man society--and that it is really a benevolent society that grew out of the Chinese rebellion against foreign domination. Is it really fair to use the term in comparison to low-life gangs that are organized for selfish and illicit ends?

Poor choice of words for subject line ;-) but I couldn't resist.

Ever notice how powerful words can be? One person asks a question about "gangs". Another person asks a separate, totally different question, but includes an observation about participants in this event.

By random chance, the person's email address coincides with the name of a group of people in Winnepeg.

Deuces888 felt he was accused of being affiliated with a gang. His resentment is understandable. At the same time, and in Sifu Cameron's defense, he never directly pointed a finger at Deuces888 and said, "Deuces888 is a gang member." Sifu Cameron stated, "Deuces is a gang name here in Wpg., but perhaps it does not have the same meaning to the guy using it on this site."

The magic words were "but perhaps". With those two words, Sifu Cameron stated his observation about a group in Winnepeg and continued his sentence saying that Deuces888 was not necessarily part of that group. Those weren't his words, but I believe that's what he meant.

No foul committed, but with such a sensitive subject, it is easy to understand why a person would defend a perceived accusation so strongly. Maybe that's why it takes so long to negotiate peace between parties in conflict. The language has to be just right. Even with all that work, the right language may not be able to get past strong feelings. Sifu Cameron is teaching our art to his students. Not only lion dancing and martial arts, but more importantly moral values. Obviously, he cares and is very serious about how his students learn to walk the straight path. We applaud his efforts.

With every respect, may I please offer an alternate way of stating the sentence that accidentally offended?

I noticed that Deuces888 is used as an e address. Deuces888, please don't misunderstand me when I tell you this...I intend no offense to you. By coincidence, Deuces is a gang name in Winnepeg. I know that doesn't mean you are in any way associated with this gang, but I am trying to teach my students...(insert lessons here) ...I hope you understand why I have to be watchful on behalf of my students here, Deuces888.

Wordy as heck, but when we're reading instructions on how to defuse a bomb, wouldn't we rather have the carefully written version?

Before we use words that inflame, before we react strongly to perceived attacks, before we ask questions that open Pandora's box or other cans of worms, let's ask ourselves--"Did I use the right words?" "Does this idea and that idea belong in the same sentence?" "Should I be asking this question in this exact way?" "Did I word my question or reply in a non-accusatory way that won't offend?"

Let's shake hands, chalk it up as experience, and keep peace on this list. I hope this doesn't anger or offend anyone; I just think we'll all benefit more from devoting our energies to lion dancing subject matter. That's why people maintain this list for us... :-)

Corey

P.S. Certain numbers and combinations of numbers have symbolic meaning to Asians. 2s and 8s have auspicious meanings, so we can congratulate Deuces888 on a very lucky and well thought out name.

To Deuces888,

That's a great name. In cantonese, break down the digits. Yee, yee, fat, fat, fat

Translation: Very easy to prosper or easy easy to prosper

Another breakdown. Yee, yee, sam fat

Translation: Very easy to triple prosperity

That's my 2 cents!!!

Ernie

Okay people...

Gang subject = Case closed ===> move on.

Jason

subject is closed
just wanted to know if anyone ever attended the marysville event. thats all

Hi

Deuce888 you need to read again. There was no accusation made, but rather an observation made that here in Wpg and elsewhere, that this is a gang name. Now where did I say that you belonged to a gang. In fact I said that the name may not have the same meaning (and you may not even know that it belongs to a gang) to you that it has to others who know it as a gang name. All this said - user beware - if you use it, others who do not know you may interpret it that you are in a gang or have gang associations. Anyway - good to hear you are not.

K1le - Chill out - why - my post was not inflammatory - just against gangs. Yes gang members are people, they also kill, rob other people (other gang members and innocents) and gang members usually use the Lion Dance for extortion, not because they love Lion Dance (although there may be the odd exception). Lion dance & martial arts are usually used as a cover for their illegal operations (they also use martial arts as intimidation, enforcement [they also use guns, knives etc.) You say gang members should be allowed on the list as long as they are not 'gangbanging' - but a great interest in gangs and "I want to hear all about it" can certainly lead to that.

Corey - thanks for the post, but I believe my post was polite and not at all accusatory

'Kam' - Wes Cameron, Si Fu

Thanks Jason.

K1LeY4EvR@aol.com, why the interest in gangs and fighting? Anybody can claim that anything is 'related' to the lion dance but that doesn't necessarily mean it deserves more than a cursory glance.

So gangs were part of lion dance's history... so what? What's the point in bringing it up again? So gang members also lion dance still today... your point is...? From my experience, teeny-bopper thugs (the majority of 'gang' members) don't contribute much to lion dancing anyway. They just want a place to hang out with their friends and look tough to other groups. So let it rest, please.

And to Deuces (B), I don't think Kam Sifu meant anything more than pointing out a coincidence. To answer your question, tho, my old troupe in SF (Chung Ngai) participated at Marysville at least twice because I saw the rings they brought back from there. It was in 1994 and 1995. I never went, though, and I always wondered what those rings were about. I heard they shot the rings from a canon and then everyone just brawled to get as many as possible. The guys who went for my troupe were all at least in their 30's when they went, and they are pretty tough, bulky guys. I wouldn't want to participate in that thing! And really, I don't know what the whole point of it was except for alpha male testosterone taken to the extreme. I'm pretty sure there's some 'symbolism' involved, but that doesn't justify the activity itself in my eyes. Lion dancing has nothing to do with it.

Best,

Willy

The interest is in the behavior of what some lion dancers did in the past.

ok guys now that the gang thing is put behind us we can start talking about Marysville. Where is Marysville? In the boondocks of Northern California by Yuba City. Historical Significance? I'm told at one time there was a significant Chinese population there (kinda like Locke) but as time went by there was less and less. Now it just seems like a small town. There is a temple there called "Bok Kai"...forgive me if i am misspelling it or mispronouncing it. 2 weeks after Chinese New Year they have a festival to the water god. i think the legend goes something like they had some monks come in and bless the temple which stopped the area of bad floods or drought and gave it fertile farmlands...blah blah blah. It's a nice temple with old heavy iron weapons from wayyy back in the day.

Part of the celebration involves what we call "Bomb Day". This is probably not the formal name for it, it's just what i know it to be called. The people from the temple take firecrackers about the size of a cola can and light them off and explode them in a hollowed tree stump. Attached to the firecracker is a hemp ring with a number written on it. I guess in the old days there was some value placed upon these rings and i was told by my sifu that gamblers would pay $$$ for these rings.

So what's it like now? Well I haven't gone for the past few years but was there about 6-7 years ago. The local police will yellow tape off a city intersection and the fire chief will light off the firecrackers. About 60 young chinese men of various height and builds will try to catch these rings. Ever see a garter toss at a wedding? just imagine that but add the fact that there are no rules and people actually want to catch this thing. The short guys crowd and jump and pile on each other like it's a big game of football and rugby but this is on pavement. Some guys punch, some guys step on other guys, but most guys just push each other. This is like many things where a few bad eggs spoil it for the rest of everyone else. The first year I went there was a lot of punching and hitting the subsequent years all the kung fu and lion dance schools were peaceful with each other and very respectful. If your tall and can jump you have a distinct advantage over the rest of the guys there.

Why do you do it? Well I did it because when I was that age it sounded kinda fun... I saw that Jacky Chan movie and thought it was kinda like that so i tried it and got a couple of rings. Great stories to tell my future descendants should i ever have any. Would I do it now? Nope...by the way, you can always buy these firecracker s before they blow them off and skip the whole getting piled on thing. I also believe I read in an Asian american studies book at CAL called California Gold that this thing has been going on since late 1890's or something..I'll have to look that up again.

i would also like to add that had it not been for the good natured people at Chung Ngai and the other kung fu schools there (sorry if i haven't mentioned you but it's been a long time) those trips up to Marysville wouldn't have been as enjoyable.

keith
Kei Lun Martial Arts

Willy,

Yes, Chung Ngai Dance Troupe used to have some good size body builders around and scrambling for these lucky rings, size and team work (protection) do make a big difference.

For history of Bok Kai festival or Bomb day in Marysville: www.appeal-democrat.com/features/bokkai/stories/030997.bokeye.htmlarysville

Something about the bombs and rings: www.appeal-democrat.com/features/bokkai/stories/022394.bombday.html

Each year the two Tongs there still throw quite a party a few weeks after Chinese new year. Traditionally, each side have great entertainment (Cantonese opera, lion/dragon dancing, Miss Chinatown contestants, parade, musicians) and food to attract gamblers from all around for the Bok Kai festival and Bomb Day was part of this celebration. Aside from the alpha male testosterone thing, there was a practical side to this scramble for the rings. Many gamblers were/are superstitious and would bid up the price of these "lucky rings" (especially those with lucky numbers) shot out of the cannon so there was good reason to scramble/push/fight for these rings to auction off to the highest bidders.

Bok Kai is the traditional Chinese god that is the protector of waterways. The Chinese built levees all around Marysville and throughout much of California with engineering know how that they brought from the Canton delta area - this turned California into an agricultural paradise and the bread basket for America from the late 1800's to this day. These levees are still functioning well in flood control and diverting water for irrigation so Bok Kai is actually quite deserving of this annual ritual. Without Bok Kai and these Chinese built levees, the U.S. would not be so well fed!

David

hey corey hows it going? remember me? im the guy that u helped get a drum a few years ago.

to willyle@juno.com, u quoted "From my experience, teeny-bopper thugs (the majority of 'gang' members) don't contribute much to lion dancing anyway" that is from your experience. like kam sifu said, some but not all of em. and i asked the question because i heard about the competition and they were there. and the stuff i wanted to know sifu kam pretty much just answered the question. so thats my point aight?

hey david thanks for the links, very helpful and informative

Hi. Sorry to change the subject ;) but one of my students asked about oranges. He has been checking out lion web pages and has seen many pictures of lions with oranges and wants to know the significance of the oranges. Anyone want to field this one?

chuck

Oranges and tangerines are often offered to the lion along with the lettuce ("cheng"). If I remember correctly they symbolize luck and wealth. Chinese people often bring them as gifts when visiting each other's home or business for this reason. We also set them up on altars.

There's a couple of different ways you can approach them when dancing. The most common way is to treat it like you would the lettuce, rip it to shreds and boot it into the air. This is the least preferable way, but it works.

A second way is to carefully cut or tear the orange into 4 sections, while keeping the bottom connected. Spread the sections apart so it resembles a lotus flower and leave one on each side of the doorpost of the business you're dancing for.

A final way to do it is to carefully peel the orange and use the sections and peel to write out a chinese character "luck" "proserity" etc.

The oranges/tangerines on an altar are offerings to heaven, and as a heavenly being the lion can eat them, symbolizing acceptance of the offering and bestowing a blessing. If you do this, one of the second two ways of eating them is much better.

Anybody else have thoughts on this?

Chris

Sorry, dude. I just thought you had an infatuation with gangs or something... which wouldn't be cool. Truce.

Best,
Willy

First off, I don't know why I didn't do it before, but I just finished setting up a page that is an alphabetical list of all the lion dance groups I have information about. I hope it'll be a helpful resource for visitors to the Lion's Cave. Check it out here: http://www.oocities.org/lionscave1/Alpha.html

Second, I was recently asked if I knew how to perform the following chengs and was wondering if anyone had any insights:

The first one seems simple: a round tray with a vase in the middle of it with a red flower in it. Around the vase is lettuce and around the lettuce is the money. How would you aproach it and what would you do to eat it?

The second one is called "Goddess Kuan Yin crossing the sea." I have no idea how to set it up or solve it. Never even heard of it. Anybody know the answer?

Thanks for all your help!

Chris

P.S. More on the oranges: when offering them you should leave the stem and leaves attached to the fruit as this symbolizes growth.

Hi Chris,

I had said something about this before and don't remember anyone saying anything about it... I remember seeing a book of Lion Dance Puzzles, with illustrations... Had some really interesting puzzles... some i've never seen before... also had the regular ones... The 7 star... the pau gwa....But it is written in chinese... Would you know anything about this? Shoot... guess not... if you're asking about thoes puzzles... I was looking through it, but I didn't think of picking it up. I saw it in Hong Kong a while back... I"ve tried and tired to get any information about it... where i could find it... no luck... you think you can help??

Jason

Hello Fellow Lion Dancers

I agree with vela , I know it 's only a movie but it bothers me too . To see lions get kicked and thrown.

Try and watch Jade the movie with David Caruso and Linda Florentino . The part where david caruso was chasing the black car , which ran down a young girl twice . Anyway , that same black car also drove through a parade . Which happen to be the San Francsisco Chinese New Year Parade , I don ' t what year it was , but I was pissed off too . But itt was only a movie . There was members of the Yau Kung Moon Kung Fu School , Doc Fai Wong ' s Kung Fu School , and many other kung fu clubs and schools . I saw jason wong the son of Choy Li Fut master Doc Fai Wong and other members of his school climbing on the david caruso ' s silver or white car , and pounding his hood as a way of retaliating against david . And some kung fu members were lying on the road unconsicious . But being rescued by the members of their kung fu school . And the other members of the other kung fu school was trying to break david ' s back window.

If you are going to see this movie video . Watch it when there ' s no children around , because there are nudity and sexual parts in it.

The other movie I seen 4 times was dreadnaught . Which featured the late Kwan Tak Ing the man who also played Wong Fei Hung himself . Anyway , they had the northern and southern lion battling against eachother . The bad guys were the northern lion and Kwan Tak Hing was the southern lion . The southern lion won against the northern lying when the the bad guys was trying to blow an iron flame thrower at the good guys , but the good guys happened to avoid the fire , and the guys happened to kick a ceramic vase against the iron or metal flame thrower . Which caused the flame to burn the head of the northern lion . The batte was good though.

Talons of the eagle also had lion dance in it . The movie which featured sifu Pan Qing Fu and billy blanks . So as honor and glory which had Sifu Tai Yim and his group ' s lion dance practice session . Also like what some one had mentioned before the year of the dragon.

Also Challenge of the Masters which featured Chen Kuan Tai and Gordon Liu . This movie was about the Hung Gar Kung Fu and its history and traditions in china . Also had lion dance . The bad were doing the lion dance . Because , the guys lost because they brought in wong fei hung , at that time did'nt know hung gar kung fu . So he and the members of the group he belong to was injured from the battle.

There was a contest in china , where all the kung fu clubs or schools in china had gotten together , and the organizers of this event were to blast the fireworks in the air . And whoever got lots of fireworks meaning the school in which its students got most of the fireworks would win the contest.

Wong fei Hung ' s father refused to teach his own son. So wong fei hung ended up learning hung gar kung fu from his father ' s sifu . At that time was allready chinese new year , the sifu of wong fei hung's club was gone , because the sifu went into the mountains or woods to train wong fei hung . So when the bad guys came to their area , there was a fight but it was stopped by the sifu 's assistant . The movie is exaggerated but produced by shaw brothers studio . The story and the characters are true though . Also kung fu masters also had lion dance in it . Well take care.

Laine

I heard about that. I am not sure if it was for a ring though. One of my sihing got one of those rings/coin (cant remember what) before. I'll ask him again, and let you guys know.

SI Si

How do you use an orange to right the word luck? Are you talking about the character, "fuk"? I am interested in starting to do that with our lion dances.

Si Si

Yup Yup... that's what my sihing told me. He got one of them too. He said you are supposed to go to the monks or something later and see if the ring you got represented a good fortune. Thats why people want them because they want the good luck. I think they really believed in it. Maybe this was somewhere else, but the story sounds the same.

Si Si

The second way, making a flower shape with the orange symbolizes prosperity and growth. The flower oranges are placed back on the tray and basin and handed back to the business owner.

oranges are similar to the gold ingots. they symbolize wealth and prosperity.

down wyling...down...bad boy!

there's no doubt that gangs have used lion dance to extort money from businesses...like here in SF..where the wah chings and chung ching yee have lion danced for money...it was know that Ng Yi Ming who was a sifu, who also taught the wah ching, whom bythe way...is no longer alive (he was murdered), his group used to topple over the vegetable or merchandise boxes in front of businesses that did not give or enough of lei sih when they danced during chinese new year.

this is only for your information...don't try this on your own...

wai ling jai