THANKS! This is good stuff for me.

Vinh Nguyen

Thanks for the great feed back!

Vinh Nguyen

Hello Deuces,

Yes, the last one was in 1997. I know because I know a group of people who participates in the championships myself. But here's the Info:

Main Studio
2901 Clement St.
San Francisco, CA 94121

Usually it comes out in the Inside Kung Fu Magazine, the info the championships. But this time even I don't what happened. This info comes out of the lion's cave website: Under lion dance group north of California. But maybe you can try writing to them. Anyway, take care.

Laine

I sent email earlier about this, guess it didnt go through. Yes there is a tournament under tat mau wong. it will be in the summer like last year. I know someone from one the sf powerhouse teams and they are already trainning for it. i do not know exact details for the tournament itself.

Albert

oops not last year last time.

To the members of the lion dance website, this is a consumer warning about one company and one person who sells lion heads and equipments.

This involved Peter Seen from Dragon Gate Palace who handles Master Lim Meng Kok's lion dance equipment in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

Be very careful about placing any orders with Peter. He does not and will not deliver merchandise. He just takes your money and run away and never hear from him again. He does not return emails inquiries.

Our club have this bad experience with him and hopefully nobody else on this lion dance list gets "burned" by him.

This experience is real and true because another member on this list, Greg Chuck, from Marin County Lion Dance knows our situation.

Let's start from the beginning.

Peter Seen got my name from the lion dance list. He sends a pricelist to whoever signs the guest book on the website.

I did not want to order from him because his prices were too high. But one of our club's elder did. His name is Teddy. Teddy decided to give Peter an order for one gold lion head to be shipped to our clubhouse in July, 2000. He wanted to see how Master Lim's lion head is compared with Master Siou. Anyway, Peter email Teddy that the cost would be $900 US and wants the money to be bank transfered to Peter's bank account in Malaysia. He cabled the money to Peter's bank account around the first of August. Peter emailed back that he got the money and will be shipping the lion head on the first boat from Malaysia which just happened to be the first week in August. So, we wait for the paperwork. Wait, wait, and more waiting. One week goes by, two weeks go by. Finally, Teddy emailed Peter that he did not receive any shipping orders in regards to the lion head. In the last week of August, Peter emails back to Teddy that the lion head came to Honolulu, Hawaii and because of the wrong address, it was returned back to Malaysia. Wow, what happened!!! How can a boat leave Malaysia during the first week of August with our lion head and return back to Malaysia with our lion head so fast within three weeks? How can you have a wrong address anyway? There is got to be a contact person on the bill of lading and an address to deliver. There have to be a telephone number on the bill of lading. The shipping company needs to collect the ocean freight. Sounds crazy to me. Anyway, a slight mistake is forgiven. Teddy emails Peter again with his telephone number, address, and our club chairman's name, address, and telephone number in case Teddy was not available. Peter confirms the address and phone number and promises to fly the lion head to Hawaii on the next available plane at no expenses to our club. That was in the first week of September. From September to now, November 8, 2000, we have not heard one word from Peter or our lion head.

If this is how Peter does business, I suggest everybody take their business elsewhere. In regards to Master Lim Meng Kok's lion dance merchandise, it might be great, but with saleman like Peter Seen, his name is mud, too. I hope some members on this lion dance list who lives in Malaysia reads this email and pass on this information to Master Lim. I am sure he will be very disturbed and upset that his saleman, Peter Seen, "burned" potential customers. As of us, we are out $900 US plus bank charges and a great "bad" experience about ordering from foreign companies. Always buy merchandise from people you know and can be trusted.

Anybody else on this list got "burned" by Peter Seen?????

Ernie

Wow, Ernie. I am sorry for what happened to you. Thanks for sharing the information with us.

This is just FYI but it is for this very reason (fraud protection and customer satisfaction) that Master Siow will not accept payment for your order before the equipment is in your hands. It's just to make sure that you are happy with what you ordered and because sometimes he might not meet deadlines because his factory is very busy. It takes a lot of trust on his part but I think he's doing better business that way.

Best,

Willy

I have read your bad experience in buying some lion head from Peter Seen,who I do not know,but I know Master Lim Meng Kok,our club "Phil. Ling Nam Athletic Federation" have been purchasing lion head from Master Lim Meng Kok (His company's name is Lo Fo Chi) for years,we met him when he was still a partner of Sifu H.P.Siow at Wan Seng Hang.Because we and Sifu Lim have been friends for years We sometimes pay him after we received the merchandise ,sometimes we sent our money in advance(sometimes months ahead of delivery).If you guy want to purchase lion from Sifu Lim deal with him directly if you need his contact number ,I can get it for you and his address too!I think Sifu Lim do not speak English ,only Cantonese and Mandarin.If I have the chance ,I will inform him about this incident,can I get Peter Seen chinese name?maybe Master Lim might not know this guy's english name.About Sifu Lim lion they are good,We have purchased from Sifu Siow before and we also purchased from Ling Long Company of Singapore.I would like to take this chance to introduce my self because I am new in this list.I am Arnold Buennviaje my chinese name is Cai Ming Ren ,presently the assistant chief instructor at the Philippine Ling Nam Athletic Association,I also teach martial arts in 3 other organization I began learning martial arts in 1977,a member of the Philippine wushu Team in 1991,studied lion dance with Sifu Poon Wai Ying of Hongkong and Dragon Dance with Sifu Ting Wan Kee of Singapore,My White Crane fist Sifu is Luk Chung Mo of the Hong Kong Luk Chi Fu Martial Arts Federation(They are very active in lion dance competition) and Sifu Cheung Kwok Wah also of HongKong,my 7 Star Praying Mantis Fist Sifu is Sifu Zhong Lian Bao of Yantai,China.(one of his disciple Jose Magnee of Belgium is also very active in promoting lion dance)We are the Philippine team that competed in the 1990 International Wushu Championship Lion Dance event in Malaysia,the 1995 International Lion Dance Invitation Tournament in Hongkong,1996 World Lion Dance ChampioArnold

hi-

We have updated the look and feel of our website at Shaolin West Kung Fu on the web. please drop by and have a look around.

here's the link http://www.mts.net/~jamieson/Index.htm

thanks!

Wow! Thanks for letting us know Ernie. Peter seen had contacted us some time ago, but as you said, we also found his pricing high and did not come to any arrangements with him. Thanks for the heads up.

Hi Ernie and Willy,

Hmm, this has not been my experience with Master Siow. When my team orders equipment from Master Siow by mail, we have to wire him the money BEFORE he will release the equipment. And very often, we are not satisfied with the shipment. We have received heads in colors we did not order, heads with the wrong kind of material, and heads with small amounts of damage. And some of our orders have arrived late. Although the damage and lateness may not have been entirely his fault, would you be satisfied receiving damaged and incorrect goods from a retailer the week after an important occasion? I've heard similar stories from people on other teams that deal with Master Siow.

Anyway, my point is that the customer satisfaction "department" at Master Siow's shop could be improved.

Don't get me wrong: Master Siow has done a lot for the lion dancing community and is a great guy, and I'm not saying not to do business with him, but I believe he has simply gotten too busy to run the business-side of his shop efficiently and effectively without more help.

As for Peter Seen and Ernie's head: Ernie and his team have every right to be upset with Peter. I met Peter back in July, but I've never done business with him. Peter is very friendly and enthusiastic about selling Master Lim's lions, but this doesn't explain why he can't deliver the head to Ernie's team, especially since I know the head is finished being made (I saw it in July). I was trying to remain impartial in this matter because I know Ernie and Peter personally, and I know someone else in the San Francisco area who did receive some lions from Peter, but I now have to agree with Ernie that Peter's accountability needs improvement and that Ernie's "consumer warning" is valid.

I guess "caveat emptor" (let the buyer beware) applies more than ever when buying lion dance equipment.

Greg

Hi Arnold,

7star mantis, Yantai, Shandong, China.... Liondancing......

Did you make it to this summer's Qingdao wushu competition....summer 2000??????

Email me.... Let's talk mantis...... perrydeanlee@juno.com

Sorry folks for putting something personal on a public list....

Sincerely,

Perry Lee

Hey Greg,

Whoa, more surprising news today. I guess my info. is more for people going to Malaysia to pick up the stuff personally. For instance my troupe is interested in getting a dragon and I told him we'd come back to Malaysia to get it. I offered to pay for it beforehand but he refused for the reason I stated earlier (it might not be ready, he wants to make sure it's the right one, etc.).

You are quite right, though. He's getting really busy and it's getting harder and harder to keep up with the increased business. Good for him (sort of), bad for us.

Best,

Willy

Hello Fellow liondance listers:

I placed two very expensive orders with Peter... I got the shipment....I cannot vouch for Mr. Seen's credibility, though I will never buy via mail-order again.

Mr. Ernie Loo, I hope that your shipment comes through..... It took a long time for mine.... I really doubt that Peter's gonna' send it via air. That part is just talk. I still have a tiny bit of faith in human nature.... Again, I do not vouch for Peter's honesty, nor credibility.

I found Peter through Dragon-gate..... He's no longer there with the company...About two three weeks after wiring my money to him, Dragon=gate emailed me saying Peter was no longer in their employ and any transactions I had with him they would not take responsibility. YOU CAN GUESS HOW WORRIED I WAS BACK THEN.

I ordered two drums two pairs of cymbals and four lion heads. The sum came out to be around $3000. One set of instruments and two heads were going to Germany. The others to Oakland, California. It took quite some time to arrive. But they did arrive.

My kung fu brother and I got some things we didn't ask for, basically an extra pair of cymbals. The lionhead didn't look exactly like the ones on the webpage.--ZhangFei, black lion.

I didn't get some things promised, like an extra pair of drumsticks, a brochure of his school/company. Schematics showing various ground formations.

I did feel he was overpriced, especially after all the extra fees associated with the shipping process.

See tips on buying equipment overseas,if you want more detail on the whole process.

I went with Peter, because he returned my message. My original choice was Wan Seng Hang, but they never replied to my TWO letters--in Chinese--of inquiry. It was a basic case of "Supply and Demand"

There were some things that didn't seem on the "up and up" with my correspondance. Peter said he never got my wire. I mailed him ,Priority mail, with a copy of the wire transfer... He said he never got the letter. He said he mailed me the brochures/schematics. I never got them.

We did receive our shipment, basically, though. In Germany, it was sent to an inconvenient port/dock and my kung fu brother had to spend about another $1000 US to get the shipment to his apartment.

In the end, if you're thinking about buying mailorder.... Think Twice. Hold out, and go buy it in person, so you can see what you're actually getting.

Regarding Malaysian business sense or courtesy...... Even though my transaction with Peter is finished, he still calls longdistance asking me to line him up with a seminar or people interested in his lionheads. I've already told him that I've tried my best, and can't help him with that aspect. ......Sifu Siow seemed like a really nice guy... talked a lot about ethics and morals in his seminar.... Makes me wonder why he didn't return my mail. Makes me wonder why at the onset, one of his students, who came out with him for the seminar, didn't return my email inquiry about lionheads.

Unfortunately, Money makes the world go round'

Things that weren't meant for profit-making shouldn't be turned into a vehicle to make money, such as the arts

Sadly, it's become more about making money than being than being true, and maintaining martial arts and martial ethics.

Anyone interested in coming by to check out the quality of Lim Meng koks lion heads are welcome to email me.

Sincerely,

Perry Lee

Sifu Siow's Wan Sheng Heng Business does not actively run the website and or check their email. The abandoned it. BUT Khuan Loke just recently did one for the sifu. Check http://www.oocities.org/khuanloke/

Look under equipment. Also for Sifu Lim Meng's go to Springrace Enterprises for his head. avoid doing business with peter seen. http://www.oocities.org/lionmk99/springrace.html

Hope that helps some of you.

Albert

Ernie, I'm really sorry your group had this experience, but thank you for sharing your concerns.

As far as I understand it Peter Seen does not represent Sifu Lim Meng Kok, but used to be the lion dance equipment contact person for Dragon's Gate Online. He was trying to build his business selling equipment and promoting lion dance through seminars. Since he was only a reseller of equipment, not the manufacturer, his prices would be higher than buying direct--just like if you purchase from anyone in the US you'll pay more than if you buy straight from overseas.

I had previously received other stories of people not 100% satisfied with his service, but they did get their equipment. Since Dragon's Gate Online is no longer selling lion dance equipment (they never gave me a reason, just stopped advertising it on their website, and didn't answer any of my inquiries about it) I didn't publish any of the reviews received.

I don't think it should be held against Sifu Lim, but is a customer service issue with Peter directly. Sifu Lim's English speaking representative is Lawrence Ng of Springrace Enterprises, as listed on the group's official website, http://www.oocities.org/lionmk99/ or http://www.oocities.org/lionmk99/springrace.htm

It's really a shame that things like this happen.

Chris

Hi Willy,

Hmm, I've been over to Malaysia to get/order equipment using 2 "methods". One method is to order the equipment at his shop, hoping that since you're there talking in person to Master Siow himself, you can get all the details straightened out. The other method is to order a few months before going over and to pick up the equipment when you're there. We've tried both these methods. Both times, we didn't get 100% satisfaction.

We tried the first method, and ordered a red batik lion from him at his shop. A few months later, we did get a batik lion, but it's not red! We call him up and tell him, and he apologizes and tells us he'll bring us a red batik lion when he arrives in SF for the lion dance conference. So he brings over another head for us. This time, the head is red, but it doesn't have batik material! He tells us that red batik material is hard to find.

Ok... why couldn't he have told us this in the first place when we ordered the head at his shop? If he had even called us up to tell us that he can't deliver a red batik lion, we could have accepted that. But telling us that he can't make a red batik head AFTER he delivers to us 2 heads of the incorrect type is pretty hard to accept.

We also tried the second method, picking up heads at his shop. We ordered some small heads for my younger group of performers. The heads are very nice! The heads are about the size we desired. But the body and pants of the lion are regular adult one-size-fits all. I don't think my younger group will be able to fit into these pants without some alteration. Plus we wanted our name on the collar of the heads, but I think he misplaced our name when he moved his shop. I guess we could have left the heads with him and told him to correct everything, but it's hard to leave his shop empty-handed after traveling all that way.

And yes, all of this is in addition to our mail deliveries from him.

I should say that we have been satisfied with some of our orders from Master Siow, but that seems to be more the exception than the norm.

Your experience and other persons' experiences may be different. But this is what I've experienced. That disclaimer "Past history is no indication of future performance" applies here.

Regards,

Greg

Hi Greg,

Man it looks like you've been through everything when it comes to ordering! =) Actually, my experience wasn't perfect, either. When I got there my heads weren't ready yet and it was during the last week that I reconfirmed my order and they finally made the lions for me. I was a little worried because I made the order like 3 months in advance! At one point I was even ready to change my order and get whatever was available since the lions weren't finished anyway... but luckily they found some lions that were premade and designated them for me and even custom made the collars with our troupe's name on them in time for me to go home. But I had to check just about every day of that last week to make sure that everything was going ok.

They seem to make a lot of gold and red lions, which worked in my favor since those were the two colors I wanted. So maybe in the future potential customers can keep in mind that gold and red have a higher chance of being available sooner. Then again it could have just been a coincidence while I was there that they had gold and red lions.

Oh, here's a tip for going through customs. I told the officer (this was in Detroit) that I had 'papier mache masks' and 'religious regalia'. Neither of these descriptions really got things going. But then I said that they were sort of like 'artwork' (which is how Master Siow described them at the conference) and the customs officer said: 'That's the magic word!' and he crossed off my entire claim and let me through for free. So if anyone is bringing equipment to the US, if you can claim it as 'artwork' it will make things much easier on you.

I did have problems with my airline, though. As soon as they saw the four big cardboard boxes they said no way those were going on the plane without even trying to fit them through the x-ray. Luckily, Master Siow and Albert were with me and we assured them that they would fit through the x-ray machine and that they had done this in the past. It was only after a little bit of tense reassurance that we finally got the lions on board. I did have to pay for two excess baggage items, which cost $117 each. No problem there. Oh, my carrier was Northwest and they are quite strict about baggage. When I went to Indonesia we flew on Malaysia Airlines and there was no problem at all.

Hehe, and since I switched airlines when I got to the US, they lost my lions for about 24 hours before finding them again and delivering them to my house! I wasn't that worried since I had already gotten them past customs, but it was just a case of the previous airline bringing my stuff to Houston instead of the last airline I went on. No biggie.

I hate to scare anyone with these experiences but just be aware that you should be prepared for anything. From doing business with Master Siow to getting your equipment home, it's a gamble the whole way through.

Best,

Willy

Hello All,

Through all my years of experiences in playing both lion's head and tail. Every club/school wold have their own way of dancing. Depending on the style of lion dancing they're learning or the sifu who taught the lion dancers.

Happiness - Snap the head up in the air, closing the mouth of the lion, allowing the beard of the lion to cover or hide your face. Some clubs would open their mouth. anyway, shaking the head with the arms, turning to the left and right, looking around from left and right. Some clubs, would rather just turn their upperbody from left to right. Instead, of shaking their arms. And doing regular walking. Also, snapping the head down turning the head to the left and right, because the lion is looking to the left and right in a low position. For some clubs this expressions are actually for their walking technique. When the head is in the air, the eyes looking at the subject or people. Same thing, when the lion is in a low postion, mouth open, eyes looking at the subject or people.

Anger - I would agree with jamieson's way. Anger - Mouth wide open and snapping shut intermittently while shaking the head and approaching or charging that which angers lion. Sadess - Usually done at funerals when the sifu of the club/school passes away. Head hanging down in a low position, looking down. Slowly moving from left to right.

Joy - mouth wide open looking at the subject or people. And dancing in a low position, walking in a regular way.

Motion - I too don't know what you mean by motion.

Silence - Jamieson's way

Scared - Jamieson's way

Suspicion - Approaching the object sniffing it and snap back in a right cat stance. Repeat it these movements 3 times. These movement apply the same thing for choy chiang.

Because, in the world and art of lion dancing today. There's kung fu styles that has deep roots in lion dancing tradition. Such as Choy Li Fut, Hung-Gar, White Crane. Fut san and Hok san style, Chow Gar Praying Mantis, Bak Mei, Dragon Style. So the stances and expressions will differ from school/club, Well take care people, bye.

Laine

Hi Laine and All,

Agree with all you and my student have said - except - we use the head held high with face 45 degrees facing down to spectators to mean 'Triumphant Lion' ie. overcomes an obstacle/does a difficult feat or after getting and expelling Choy Chiang. My Si Fu was very strict about NEVER leaving the mouth open in the head high or triumphant position (taxidermied Lion look I guess, he he).

All the best!

'Kam' - Wes Cameron, Si Fu

my friend just came back from china and bought a lion head not sure is it fuk or hok, but the lip is straight it's silver with majenta (purple/pink) lining cost him around $150 and another $120 for airline cargo it's ok, but the fur is really thin, we're gonna goto home depot and pick up some lamb skin to replace it. the tail is all silver with pink lining, not too fond of that ok, just FYI if anyone is going to china. they have the frames, u just tell them what color u want and etc. and they make it in one day

B