I agree, i was taught that if u leave the mouth open while facing another lion from another group, it meant u were looking for a fight. When we see another group, we greet them and our lions have to stay low, no intimidation whatsoever.

Hi Guys,

Even us here, in Malaysia, sometimes experience your problem ordering from Master Siow. The problem with us is that we are located about 4 hr flying time from Master Siow's place so we could not see the progress of our lions personally. It is a problem and we are thinking of how to help. You see, his oringinal and main market is still Peninsular/West Malaysia, where the buyers can check on their stuff easily. Wan Seng Hang's problems, as I see them, are;

1. No manager/secretary and with only 5-8 'non-permanent' workers.
2. Owner is not a 'profressional' buisnessman.
3. Owner is too busy and disorganized.

I think letter/e-mail writting is definitely the most non-effective way to communicate with him. Better to fax him or better still ring him on his cell phone.

It is also better to email Albert Fong (Ah Yip) through his or Khuan Loke's address as he is very close(physical distance) to Sifu, but I cannot vounce for the freqency he reads his e-mail. His is also busy with his studies and lion dance performance/competition.

To get the best product 'accuracy', I suggest that you order more 'popular' lions, like the lazer silver/gold lion, the red lion with white fur etc. Only order customise lion if you can check on the lion's progress your self or take the risk that it will not come out as what you want. FYI, batik clothes are unique every batch, and thus it is almost impossible to have the same batik lion if the batch of cloth runs out.

What I suggest when ordering is first talk to master Siow then fax him the order. Tell him of the collection date. About 2 weeks before the time of collection follow up with a few phone calls, until the day he finises the lion head. Better still ask Yip to check for you. To collect it is always better to fly in and get it yourself.

I know of the frustration when you get the lion that you did not ordered, and unfortunately Master Siow is infamous with that. Me and a few of his friends use to think of ways to help him out but so far no solution in sight beside finding him a manager. There are however occasions that people to send the lions head back to him, mostly because of damages during freight, and he will repair it at no extra cost.

As for payment, for my personal experience I never had to pay before delivery. Somtimes teams here also take a few months to fully pay him.

There is a lot of problems with Master Siow's overseas distribution and we who know him feel really bad as he good name is tianted by this, thus we are always trying to help him get a good system going. I am also very nervious in helping people ordering from him as I could not garantee anything! I do hope the list can give some good suggestion that will help him so that I can pass it on to him and help him to help us!

Regards

George

hey deuces

u sed that ur friend bought a lion and the fur was really thin. and u gonna go to home depot for some lamb fur. do they have that there?? i mean like what is it called and used for? which home depot do u get it from??

do any of you understand what the following message is about???

Daniel

Return-Path:
>Mailing-List: contact list-help@liondancing.org; run by ezmlm
>Date: 13 Nov 2000 09:44:08 -0000
>From: list-help@liondancing.org
>To: orientaldragon8@home.com
>Subject: ezmlm warning

Ernie,

Hello, sorry about what happened to your club. With the situation with Peter Seen. If I was Teddy, I would be pissed off too. But I guess we all learned a valuable lesson. In ordering from foreign companies.

And too all you people who were'nt satisfied with the mail order section of some foreign companies that make and sell lion heads and lion dance equipments. I feel bad for all you too, I guess, learning from ernie's story. It'll be better if buyers would go down to the company to pick up their lion dance merhandise. Provided that the buyer and the manufacturers of lion dance equipments, come to an agreement when the lion dance merchandise be ready for pick up and also making arrangements. When all this process should be taking place.

Also, do a research on which company is good. And which company is bad. But reading eachother's posts on this topic, I guess we know and learned about it allready. That's what I would do if I knew all this mumble jumble circumstances was going to confront me.

But I did'nt know that it happens this way too. So, thanks ernie and the rest of you for sharing your situation with companies in the foreign countries that make and sell lion dance equipments. Just sharing my thoughts and solutions on this topic. Because, I certainly learned something too, about this topic. Well, people take care.

Laine

P.S. Unless, you asked the companies that you normally order your lion dance merchandise from. To custom make a malaysian style lion head, regardless if it's hok shan or fut san, other than that, I don't know. Bye.

Hey guys,

I've never used it myself but at IKEA they sell sheep's fur rugs for about $50 a piece (they're just used for accent decorating). They're not that big but I would guess there's enough fur there to replenish the beard and eyebrows, and maybe for some shoes. Although IKEA sounds like a strange place to get lion dance equipment, maybe you can check it out if you really, really want that fur!

Best,

Willy

Ezmlm is the mailinglist program used for the liondance mailinglist. You got your message because one or more messages to your address bounced. Since you did receive this warning message, it seems like there was only a temporary problem.

You can safely ignore such messagees.

Regards,

Serhat Sakarya

PRICE CLUB/COSTCO HAS NICER ONES, BUT THEY ARE $119.00 FOR A LARGE PIECE OF RUG, ENOUGH FOR 5 HEADS. THE ONES AT HOME DEPOT AT 280 METRO ARE NOT THAT GOOD, THEY ARE YELLOWISH/WHITE FOR $50 (TWO HEADS) THEY ARE MAINLY USED FOR RUGS. WE CHANGED 3 OF OUR HEADS AND IT LOOKS REALLY NICE, BUT IT TAKES A LOT OF TIME AND DIFFICULTY TO DO IT.

I've never used it myself either, but the best prices I've found are from Sheepskin Factory. They'll sell scrap sheepskin (leftover after they trim their rugs & other products), irregular shapes from 2-5 inches wide and about 30 inches long for $5 (US) each plus shipping. You have to specify that you need fur to be consistently 2 inches long or you may get a mix of long and short fur. Contact Louis Livaditis in the sales division at:

sales@sheepskinfactory.com

Sheep? I thought it was rabbit fur on the lion heads.

Yes, it is indeed rabbit fur. However, the beard and mustache of the Lion are usually Horse hair. The hair on the body (if any) can be a variety of things from what i have seen and I do not know if their is a rule regarding this particular aspect of the fur on the Lion. (usually a strip of fur along the length of the back or even just a tail).

My Si Fu and I had the pleasure of undertaking a task that involved the complete refurbishing of a Lion. It was a lot of hard work and consumed many of our hours of time. In the end it was really worth it though and we now have a lion that is distinct to Si Fu and Si Mo's school and representitive of the school spirit and Si Fu's Kung fu style when used.

depends on the lion head. if its sifu siow's lions(along with other malaysian lion head makers and those who have been catching up with the modern wants of lion heads) have sheep fur for the eyes and around the mouth. usualy the old style lion heads(like the ones you find at gift shops in chinatown) might have rabbit fur the eyes and mouth, but usualy you see the horse hair kind.

Albert

Hello All,
This is FYI, are anyone of you familiar with:
Camarillo Mi Tzung Lo Han
Kung Fu and Lion Dance Assn.
Sifu Kee C. Ling
Los Angeles Area

Well, I was just looking through the equipment section of the lion dance website. Especially, the Los Angeles area and saw this kung fu/lion dance assn. And I sent them an email of inquiry, and found out that they do carry master siow's lion head and the drum stand the ones used for the, championship style of lion dancing. And if you give sifu Ling your own design of the drum stand, it's possible that he can have it made for you.

And they carry the fut shan and the hok shan lion heads. The prices of these heads are priced the same, depending on the material and finish.

Regular satin fabric $800
Glitter $850
Laser $890
Plus $75 for freight/shipping

And if they don't have the lion's head that you want. He can get it for you, but it'll take 30 days. Anyway, just to let you all know. it's sounds good to me, but did anyone of you order from this assn. Anyway, take care people, bye.

Laine

Hello Again All,

Sorry the email address is:

Camkungfu@yahoo.com (Kee Ling), bye, take care.

Laine

You might be able to get some fur material from a fabric store. Probably cheaper that way.

>Corey,
>
>I am curious as to your take on all these posting about lion repairs and construction.
>At the conference last year, there seems to be many suggestions and methods for
>various repairs but no consensus. We should have a site (maybe Chris' lion cave)
>that addresses this issue. Hopeful that you will find the time to write something from
>your summer experience to kick start such a site.
>
>Personally I have been curious about using the material from Fedex envelopes to
>replace the papier mache. These envelopes seem indestructible, waterproof, light,
>cheap and available. Just wonder how easy it is to work with and how well it takes
>paint. next time you are messing with repairs, can you try this material to see if it can
>be used to replace the paper?
> >Rgds,
>David

Many of you know that David has been a strong and enthusiastic supporter and contributor to this lion dance mailing list. He also put together a lion dance conference in San Francisco, featuring a couple of names that lion dancers may recognize...Master Siow and Dr. William Hu.

Even if you've never met David Lei, if you're a lion dancer you've probably benefitted from his generosity in some direct or indirect way. Because of his love for lion dancing, dragon dancing and arts in general the art we all love (enough to subscribe to this list) has a chance of surviving. We should be grateful to people like him for taking positive steps to ensure that children of the future can enjoy watching a lion dance.

You all know that lion dancing has changed drastically in the last 15 years or so. But so is the way lion heads are being made. There is the modern way of making lion heads--fast, light, inexpensive, creative. There is also the traditional way of making lions--sturdy, heavy, costly, adhering to strict rules and methodology.

Last summer, David encouraged and supported the efforts of 5 members from Kei Lun Martial Arts to learn the art of making, repairing and painting lions. No, he didn't foot the bill for the entire trip...so please don't bother him with outrageous requests. There's nothing special about the 5 people that went, just their special love for this art. Something I believe most of us share, which means any one of you could have and can learn what we began learning.

I say "began" because really, even after long hours of one-on-one training and consultation with 3 different lion head makers in Guangzhou and Hong Kong we've just started our efforts and have little experience in making and repairing lions compared to them. We're not experts; we only know what we were taught and we can only do what we can do. Maybe we knew too little to begin with, but there were a lot of holes in our knowledge that got filled up during our trip.

We haven't had a chance to rewrite our notes or prepare the presentation that David wants us to. My wife and I just had our first child and I spend a lot of my time changing diapers and working, instead of researching and writing. :-) In the future, David's foundation may make an informal workshop available to interested parties.

Yes, we learned from people that have spent most of their lives making and fixing lions, but that doesn't mean that the rest of us can't fix our own lions when they need repairing. Actually, those that live outside China enjoy the advantage of having much better materials more readily available for some of the more common types of fixes.

It seems most people don't put any effort into maintaining or fixing their heads. If you ever even tried to make any improvements or repairs to your lion that already puts you in the minority of lion head owners/caretakers.

There's no single or best way to execute certain repairs. There's just the many different ways that have worked for many different people, according to the availability of materials, level of experience, how much time invested, and desired outcome.

Some people fix a lot with duct tape and that works just fine for them. Others may go through the trouble of peeling paper, repairing broken frameworks, pasting new paper, painting, etc. That's fine too. Still others may just buy a brand new lion. Problem solved.

So this email and the subsequent report/workshop to follow is for the second group of people that are more inclined to want to sink a lot of extra time into fixing up their lions.

David's question is regarding Tyvek, the paper thin material commonly used in delivery envelopes. It is waterproof, tear proof and virtually indestructible. Tyvek is available in large sheets from art stores, but before you waste a trip to the art store, let me just say that it's probably better to forget the dream of making the waterproof, indestructible Tyvek lion. It's precisely those incredible qualities about Tyvek that make it unsuitable for use as the magical wonder paper for making lion heads. It cannot be used as the foundation paper layer because it won't absorb and hold glue or paste the way other papers do. I've used it to reinforce small sections of lion head shells, but that's after sandwiching small pieces of Tyvek between layers of the traditional sah gee paper commonly used by lion head makers. I think time would be better spent pasting additional layers of conventional sah gee, or practicing how not to tear up the lion in the first place.

Paint tends to crack off the surface of Tyvek as well, kind of like scratching paint off laser paper lions. If you care a great deal about the way your lion is painted and you want that paint job to last, then painting on paper is probably the direction you want to take.

That's it for now. My family is waiting for me! ;-)

Happy fixing,

Corey

Hi David and Corey,

From my experience in repairing heads, the tyvek "plastic" would be ideal but is not suitable as Corey mentioned. The Tyvek is a plastic, and no brushed on paint will adhere to the surface or least not be durable. Plastic doesn't stick to plastic. The Tyvek is ideal for any weather condition. But it's not useful because it doesn't create a good environment INSIDE the head. It's plastic and doesn't "breathe." Unlike paper and the gauze for support, the humidity trapped within the head be it from sweat or weather,.. it's going to be the tropics under the head. Can you imagine the groups that do lacquer their heads in hawaii?! They're in the tropics! Right, Ernie?

And the same applies for mylar. One can find these in auto and maybe craft stores by special order, but it won't breathe and paint won't stick.

Yeah, Corey, I guess you got me (an old listee) out and started some spewing of 2 cents of wisdom...

-Kirby

P.S. We should keep in mind that if we discuss things specifically, we should note what frame of reference the writer is coming from. I'm located in the U.S. Other materials may/may not be available in other parts of the world that other listees reside in.

For instance, those past sheep skin discussions are referring to a U.S. home furnishing/furniture chain store (Ikea). It may not be in business in Canada or S'pore. So everyone, please keep this in mind. [Stepping down from the podium... thanks.]

Hi All,

My student and I took a Fut Shan Lion Head and did major repairs to it (frame and outer). For the outer we removed (caaarefully)(no it is not a typo) damaged sections of the paper machete. We then took very thin cloth and cut it to fit the section we removed and soaked this cloth in a watered down mixture of white glue and placed it on the section we were repairing and let it dry thoroughly. We did the whole Lion head this way (and there was a lot!). We then base painted the head and I then had the idea to mix sparkles with a very thin clear glue and painted it over the entire head which gave it a very shiny/sparkly look (you should see it in the sunlight or under halogen lights) and then we did the art work and added a few more sparkles to the art work (my student is very good at art). After this we decorated the head. The cloth and glue mixture is very strong and resilient.

Well that is how we did it in a nut shell.

All the Best.

'Kam' - Wes Cameron

hey everyone

i just wanted to tell u all that i have finally suceeded on making a drumstand. it is really close to the one's they use in the compititions. my friend had a tape of the siow seminar thingy that was a few years ago. i looked so carefully at the drumstand and i also saw a lot of the compitition ones too. they ones i saw that i know for sure siow made didn't look to like the ones that Sifu Kee.C Ling was selling in LA. it doens't even look like the ones in the picture that Ling had on his wesite. they look much nicer. i made it out of square metal tubes. they were 3/4 in squares. i got the metal just at home depot. i needed a total of bout 25 ft of metal. it cost me roughly$55. this is much better than $150 that Sifu Ling charges. 25ft sounds like a lot of metal but it's actually not. it actually do this we had to borrow a welder, and a! ginder from my friend. if u want to make this one, ur gonna really need these two things. it was a little bit of a challenge to maek just because i based my measurements from the TV and the videos. it's very strong but not TOO heavy. it took me and my friend a good 6-8 hours total ( not including painting) i still haven't painted it yet but me and my friend will do that soon. i sugest that u have a friend help u. and u will have to know how to weld too. over all it was a worthwhile project. it looks really nice. i will try to give u all the plans but it is rather comlicating to write it out. i want to get some pictures of it after i paint it online to u guys but i don't have a scanner. i do know people that have scanners so it might take me a while to get in on here. i'll try to give u guys more details on this. if u have any questions just let me know.

later

~erick

>THERE ARE IKEA'S IN CANADA

DANIEL

Hi Perry!

Glad to hear that you've got your order. How are the lions? Are they good? Light and strong? What do you think.. will you suggest other liondancers to buy from sifu Lim? OK, that's all. Thanks for telling your experience to us. Bye!

care,

Vela

Hello,

much to my dismay, the new server crashed after about 180 days of continuous and problem free operation. Of course this just _had_ to happen while I was on vacation in the US and had no way of physically accessing the machine. And of course by the time I found out the machine was not responding, the weekend had already arrived.

However, I did manage to get things fixed from here (by sending someone down there) and it appears there was a hardware problem: the power supply failed. This was quickly repaired and the server has been back online since then.

I apologize for these problems. They came at the worst possible time for me, but I did what I could from here to get things fixed.

Regards,

Serhat Sakarya

I was talking to Samantha Thai the other day about her research into women and lion dancing and some of the questions she had trigered a question in my mind that I didn't know the answer to.

In the Southern lion dance there is sometimes a female buddah/monk/teaser/whatever-you-want-to-call-her. My question is this: is she played by a female or male disguised as a female? If women were not supposed to be martial artist/lion dancers what about women participating as the monk?

I know that this isn't a problem with Northern lion since the Peiking opera has both male and female performers, but with the Southern lion is this a later invention that came after women were more accepted? Or some sort of a fluke that was brought into the Southern lion dance by people who didn't know the tradition of no women allowed?

Or am I just reading too much into this?

Thanks for any input,

Chris

Hi,it seem very quite these few days ,could any one post the name of the winners of the recent World Lion Dance Championship in Sanshui in Chia. or is the competiton not finish yet.Our group was invited but due to several reasons we were not able to go.Hope to hear from you guys!