Hi

Who can say where, when or what are the reason for lion dance. Every region and every school has his own storys. I think all the aspects like religious, Feng Shui, martial arts are parts of lion dance. All of this parts have the same aim: protection, luck and harmony! We belief in a religion or god to get the feeling of protection and also when we practise martial arts for the same. With lion dance there is no other. The mirror on the forehead and the red ribbon on the horn (or on the hip) are protection sign too and what we do in Feng Shui. We put fans, mirror, pa kuas, goldfish, flowers... in our home; for what? To protect us. And what give us the feeling of protection? Harmony and luck. If we speak from lion dance, we speak just from a part of chinese cultures or other asian countries. And when we respect our traditional roules we will reach the aim: protection, luck and harmony!

Reto
Lion Dancing Troupe
Bach My Su Dau
Switzerland

hi everyone there,

I would like to know how long does it take to learn Lion Dancing. Could you possibly tell me something?

Thanks Demetrio

Xin Chao Demetrio

One first! Learning of lion dance takes years!!! And if you have not a teacher or master (and this guy have lion dancing done for years) it's impossible to learn. Lion dancing is like martial art. It's needs a lot of knowledge and practise and you need a teacher how can correct you. It's impossible to learn it serious from videos or books.

You are from a vietnamese/chinese martial arts school "fenghuang", so it depense what kind of lion you will learn and wnat kind of lion dancing is in tradition in your school. In China they are two main branch (north or south) and in Vietnam they call to everything "dance of the dragon" (Mua Lan) and means Lion- (north or south), Dragon-, Unicorndance ....! Every Vietnamese Kung Fu or Vő school play his own Mu Lan. School with chinese influence use chinese lionhead (north or south) and vietnamese school use the traditional vietnamese lionhead. This lion look more then a southern lion but not exactly and some guys call them unicorn. But is not the same like chinese unicorn dance!

Ask your teacher how kind of lion dance your school use and practise in the way of tradition. Don't copy other things. Your school "fenghuang" have enough influnce from traditional styles.

Best

Reto

thanks for your answer sure i don't wanna learn from a video. i know that a lot of people try to learn from video(poor people and poor martial arts). I started kung fu in 1987 when i was 15 years old all i know i have learned it with my master Raoul Pianella in our dojo training a lot and still training

thanks

I was just asking :) just curious

Hi Reto,

you talks about traditional Vietnamese Lion and Chinese Lion. Could you maybe tell me more about the different between those two heads? I'm very interest on the traditional Vietnamese style maybe can you tell me more about this one too?! Thanks

And about the unicorn you talks about i thought in Vietnam they call it mu'a la^n and mu'a su+ tu+? (some one wrote it sometime ago) mu'a la^n = liondance and mu'a su+ tu+? = dragon dance. Unicorn they do have it in Vietnam but as far as i can remember it's only performs by the Vienamese-Chinese (and only in Saigon). Or can any one tell me more about this too?

Xin Chao Demetrio

It's fine to hear that you're an active martial arts artist. Because they're not a lot of chinese/vietnamese martial arts school in europe and especial who practise lion dancing. What kind of lion dance use your school "fenghuang".

Best

Reto

we don't have lion dancing in our school

Hey everyone,

>You quoted him as saying that during the Sung dynasty the dance
>became more entertainment than religious. Was this specifically
>regarding the southern lion? I'm not convinced that this ever
>happened in the eyes of the practitioners.

I think you are right that the northern lion took this course while the southern lion retained its Buddhist influences.

>My theory is that the southern lion started as a separate exhorcism
>ritual> (pre-buddism), and became associated with Buddist exhorcism
>rituals. Gung Fu was also associated with Buddism through the Shaolin
>temples and there the lion dance and Gung Fu became intertwined.

From Dr. Hu's book I have come to understand that the lion dance historically evolved from the imperial court as entertainment to its adoption by Buddhists as a holy ritual to a martial art in itself. The lion dance grew out of the courtly games and entertainment for the emperor, but the masses never knew of it until it accompanied the Buddhist processions that spread Buddhism to the people (and even then the lions were just entertainment in the parade). According to Dr. Hu, the lions started out as just another addition to the elaborate Buddhist processions but then took a more active role because the lion represents the Buddha and vice versa. It was at this point that the lion dance came to be seen as an exorcism tool because of its ties to Buddhism and its auspicious relation to the Buddha. Again, all this took place in the Sung dynasty. This is on pg. 51-54. Other exorcism rituals were around at this time, but none were specifically tied to the lion dance.

The split between the northern and southern lion took place in the Tang dynasty, which was before the Sung dynasty. A dichotomy of purposes in the dance emerged - one was more theatrical, for entertainment and 'for fun' (northern) while the other was more ceremonial, serious (southern). pg 75-76. As I understand it, the northern lion dance can be divided into civil (entertainment) and martial (ceremonial) dances, as well (pg 124). But the more serious ceremonies and esp. cheng pickings are supposed to be for the southern lions only.

The martial arts as an institution entered the lion dance when Master Yang Hsien Chiang brought the two together, also in the Sung dynasty (pg 116). It seems like a lot happened in the Sung dynasty! But what needs to be emphasized is that the Buddhist, martial arts, and theatrical influences all came separately and not simultaneously. In fact, I believe that Master Yang worked with what we consider the northern lion. Hmm... The revolutions against the Ching dynasty happened much later, long after the foundations of the lion dance with the martial arts and Buddhism had been established. (pg 238)

>I don't see the dance as a separate entity, but find a definite >pattern of development. I think it is becoming a separate entity in
>that some teams are now practicing it for sport, separate from
>anything else. It is very similar, as someone pointed out a while ago

I agree with you on this - the sport element is quite new and I believe it's the first time since the dance's inception that it is devoid of religious purposes. There will be demand for both versions, I'm sure.

Surprisingly, Dr. Hu himself claims that the Cantonese lion is 'always' associated with martial artists. (pg 142). To this I ask - why can't the lion dance itself be a martial art? I know that the martial arts have contributed many things to the dance and both arts have many similarities, but to say one 'requires' the other is incorrect. But to say that the lion dance itself is a martial art would seemingly make all our claims valid. What do you guys think?

> P.S. Weren't Buddhist monks celebate & "cleansed" from earthly
> emotions? If so, how could a monk have a "love interest"? Or is that
>just part of the comedy/entertainment?

Hehe, well that's why this monk was sort of a renegade who wanted to have a little fun. People probably understand the implications of being a monk and that's why we find it so funny. =)

Best,

Willy

> As far as I know it is okay for the Lion Dancers to jump over
> the lion body after their salute and then get in the Lion.

Just as a data point, our tradition does this as well. Right after the salute, we do a small "form" based on our Hung Gar tradition. It is timed with music. The last move of the set has the head and tail jumping over the lion from opposite sides and then getting into the it.

A similar (but different form) routine was done in Jackie Chan's drunken master. And I believe in Dreadnaught, they did hands free cartwheels to get over the lion.

Finally, we have a move where the head will do a tornado kick over the tail (while in the head) so no taboo about going over the tail even in a show.

Stephen.

Hi,

Re 2000 lion dance competition VCD:

I had wanted to wait til I actually receive the VCD before posting their availability on this list, but I have gotten so many recent inquiries that I want all to know that we should receive them "soon". Following is e-mail from George Chan of Malaysia saying VCD's are available now and he is ordering them for sending to me to distribute. I still don't know the cost and would not know until George invoices me and add in the cost of postage. As soon as I know, I will post the price on this list.

If you have not already reserved your copy with me earlier, pls place your orders now to make it easier for me to know how many to get from George. The Chinese Performing Arts Foundation will charge our actual cost for this service. We are hoping to keep the cost down as low as possible to encourage all to buy their own and not make illegal copies. If we are to truly promote/support lion dancing, we need to support organizations that produce and organize these competitions by respecting their copyrights.

Rgds,

David

From: George Chan
Subject: Re: vcd
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 13:41:05 GMT

David,

Yes, I can confirm that I can get my hands on the 2000 VCD and the 5 copies of 1998 VCD. Please reconfirm how much you need of each and I will book it through the distributers.

George

Hi Demetrio,

it's really nice to know that there are some interest in Liondancing from Italy. In the mailing list, there are some liondance experts, you can try to learn from them, for example Sifu Wes Kameron and George Chan. So Demetrio, are you serious in liondancing? If you are, why don't you join a troupe in Italy? I think there are some.. I read the list in the lioncave site. Joining a liondance troupe is the best way to start liondancing. Even from this mailinglist, where you can share experiences and technics from the experts, you can't really do liondancing by reading only. OK that's all. Good luck!

care,

Vela

Hi Vela,

I'm just learning liondancing and taking lessons, so I can't really explain how good the quality of the lions are... Sorry...

I became infatuated with Malaysian lionheads when I went to Sifu Siow's seminar in SF. That's why I went ahead and bought the lionheads. I just had to have them.....

If I can find someone to check out the heads for me, I'll let everyone know.... Only thing I noticed is the eyes don't seem to blink too smoothly.

sincerely,

perry

I disagree, it does not take long to learn lion dancing. it takes long to become really good at lion dancing. The right stuff can be taught within a year especially when your focus of learning is on lion dancing and not martial arts. Example: The malaysian teams. Mua Lan is southern lion dancing. Mua Su Tu is NOrthern Lion Dancing. Mua Rong is dragon dancing. If you would i can explain the structural differences in a vietnamese head and a chinese head. You can try checking my teams site(its dinky but it can be helpful) http://www.oocities.org/gumloong/ Check under different styles of heads

Albert

Hi,

It is best to learn Lion Dance from a good Si-Fu, but some of the elementary beginning flavour and movements can be learned from a good instructional video (if you are able to learn in that fashion) - problem is....there are not very many good instructional videos around. Best to find a good Si-Fu to teach you, but if unable to do so....start with a good video - then when a good Si-Fu does come into your life - at least you will have somewhat of a head (no pun intended) start.

All the best!
'Kam' - Wes Cameron, Si-Fu

I believe Martial Arts became most entrenched in Southern Lion Dance after the fall of the Ming dynasty, when it was used as a vehicle to carry out clandestine activities against the Ching Dynasty - this is where the Choi Chang received its most prevalent meaning ie Chiang (greens) and Ching are very similar in pronunciation and so greens were used to symbolize throwing the Ching out of China.

I agree with Willy that Lion Dance can be done without the dancer having to be a martial artist, but if you have the foundation of stances, stepping, strength and flexibility from the martial arts - then you are already half way there to being a good Lion Dancer. Lion dance can be martial arts if the dancer does martial art moves such as stances and stepping patterns along with kicks and powerful moves.

All the best!
'Kam' - Wes Cameron

Hi Albert

Thank for your infos about Mua Lan, Mua Su Tu and Mua Rong on your site. In our school we call to all this Vu Lan and not especialy the exactly word in vietnamese! Because we're a vietnamese/chinese martial art school and the most expressions/words are spoken in vietnamese/chinese. We have different typs of lion head in our style. My troupe use a southern lion head (fat-hok style)from china.

You know any historical infos about vietnamese lion dance?

bye

Reto

Dave,

I am also interested in getting the new competition VCD. Your are talking about the 2000 Genting World Lion Dancing Competition VCDs right? Anyways if you can get a hold of some i'll buy one. Thanks a lot.

Mike Leung

Well with what I know, there has been a different style of lion dancing from vietnam. The drumming is entirely different that's used with a loud steel gong. The lion dancing is extremely different and less "powerful" compared to cantonese lion dancing. The vietnamese style relatively new. There has been lion dancing in vietnam for a long time but the style that comes vietnam isn't. The way vietnamese lions look might be due to the fact it is between singapore and malaysia(the hac son populations) and southern china (the foshan population). A lot of vietnamese lions are like fat-hoc lions. You can go to my team's website(still working on pictures of our team in action).

http://www.oocities.org/gumloong/

Look under different styles and there are some couple of pictures of vietnamese lions.

I wish i can tell you more but i'm no Scholar in this. It's all i can pretty much tell you.

Albert

Hi Vela and All,

Just opened up this e mail. I assume that Wes Kameron is referring to me since I use my Cantonese name 'Kam' in signing and that Kameron is a confusion of my western surname, so let me address this e mail please. Thank you for your consideration, although I do have experience and knowledge in the Southern Lion Dance and I do produce good teams, Lion Dance has such a rich history and depth, with different ways of doing things and different styles, that I am still learning in this area. I have been able to offer what I think is some useful information on Southern Lion dance to members of the list . I have also gained useful items from other very knowledgeable members of the list.

All the Best!
'Kam' - Wes Cameron

Hi Albert,

As far as i know almost liondance school in Vietnam are run by chinese sifu. So it's actually came from China or Hongkong. It has to be?! So the style they are performent must be very old (this is because Vietnam was closed for years with the international). I'm talking the situation in Saigon before 1985. I don't how is it now but i think it still the same. But one i'm here(outside Vietnam) i have heard that there are also real Vienamese style, teaching by Vietnamese sifu. Do you know anything about this. In case you do can you tell us more or where/how to contact that group/team?

Even though I respect everyone's opinion, especially those of the more experienced of us on the list, I don't know how I feel about this statement.

I have been liondancing for almost four years now and am part of a school sponsored group that cannot afford a master or instructor. I'll be the first one to admit that we started out pretty sketchy, but I feel as if we have learned liondancing as a dance form and less as a martial art. I feel as if liondancing is an interpertive dance form which does not have to rely on previous martial arts experience and that with dedication anyone can learn, not only from masters but from people who have played the lions and are experienced with using them. Basically my point is that I hope that people don't think that liondancing is impossible to learn without a formal instructor. If that is the case then the past three and a half years (and I realize that three and a half years is NOT a terribly long time, but that's how long i've been doing it) I have spent as a performer will seem like nothing at all. As I have been led to believe, there is at least one other group on the East coast with similar background to mine that has just recently started. I hope that in time groups like ours can earn the respect of more long standing liondance groups.

Andy

Hi Andy

Everyone earn my respect, equal how long they plays the lion. I know that not all of the lion dancers are martial art practioners. The most of this guys who practise just lion dance are better then the guys who spend they're most time for martial art training. I mean your on the right way with your lion dance and it's was not my intension to criticize you.

I was wondering about the message from Demetrio. He train martial art in italy by a master. So why they ask not his master self. I think , but this my personal opinion, that if you practise a martial art style why you not practise the lion dance of your school. And it's in your school no lion dance and this is your wish to learn it. Maybe your in the wrong school!

Reto

Hi Swiss_Union_of_Qwan_Ki_Do_/_Vő_Sú_Reto_Turnell

as i told you we dont' have lion dancing in our school. I started kung fu in 1987 with qkd with Vismara i think you know it. My master Raoul Pianella was 2 dang of qkd when he left it in 1990. My Master has a been a pupil of Master Shin Dae Woung for 8 years a korean Si Fu In italy since 1975 . In this school there was not lion dancing. Last year italian qkd started with lion dancing . so what can i think about this?. after 12 years here it comes "Lion dancing". why Tong (Chief of qkd) didn't start before to teach this dance to his pupils?As you say it should go togeter whit kung fu. I leave to you the answer...

well i think it's all for now

Sorry for my english

Hi Demetrio

Sorry when i got to close to you! I'm not in the italian union of qwan ki do. So I don't know when they started with lion dancing in Italy. But in the qwan ki do worldchampianship in Milano from 1994 they was a demonstration after the competion in lion dancing with two italian guys.

Master Tong teached lion dance since 1968 when he arived in france, but only to a few persons. Officialy, this mean for everyone, he start to teached lion dance since 1996.

Reto

No offense meant or taken.

Of course it's better to learn from a master but that's not always an option. I am curious as to whether there are other groups on this list who are self trained and don't have a formal master or instructor.

Andy

I got my opinion here...lion dancing doesnt have to go with kung fu..take shaolin temple for example..is tehre lion dancing in the REAL SHAOLIN TEMPLEtaught by REAL SHAOLIN MONKS(The only one i know that are real...IN CHINA...NEW YORK...and HOUSTON)??...no tehre is no lion dance done....so plz dont say lion dance should go togehter with kung fu...cuz it isnt tru..=)

Hi,

Lion Dancers who practice martial arts are just as good and talented as those who just do Lion Dance. It all depends on how hard one trains, ones commitment and of course the expectations of the Si-Fu.

All the Best!
'Kam' -Wes Cameron

>Lion Dancers who practice martial arts are just as good and talented
>as those who just do Lion Dance. It all depends on how hard one trains,
>ones commitment and of course the expectations of the Si-Fu.

Ah.. thus the term 'kung fu'.

g