Thanks, Sifu. I really feel that we have a lot of big movers and shakers on this list who can make something happen if we all pulled together. I mean, look at the spectacular conference that David Lei, et al, put on last year. In the next couple of years, we could have two very strong bodies representing the US and Canada as well.

And Albert, I don't know why the IDLDA is moving to Beijing but I think it's because they routinely rotate the headquarters so that there is more participation. Maybe? I'm assuming this because the judge certification conference/exam is supposed to rotate amongst various countries, so why not the headquarters?

In a way, this IS a checks and balances system so that one place doesn't permanently take over. How ironic, huh? =) But then again, I am not sure if this is the reason at all so I'll just have to ask Master Siow and see.

Best,

Willy

Hi,

Just wanted to comment on this a little bit again. I agree with Andrew that knowledge of martial arts is not required to learn and master lion dancing. But I agree with George that one way is not better than the other, just different. Whatever works for you is best. And the key to any team's success is the time you put into training.

But regarding the issue of whether a master or instructor is needed... well... I think if you learn strictly from watching others (because of your circumstances) it will take a long time for you to 'figure out' the tips and techniques that an experienced teacher could provide in a matter of minutes. I'm not saying that it's impossible and I know about your situation over there in Brandeis (Paul Hung used to write a lot on this list), but it will help you advance a great deal if someone with experience could help guide your troupe's training and development.

Andrew, you say that you can't afford a master or instructor to teach you? What are the going rates for these kinds of instructions? Are there many instructors over there in Massachusetts?

Anyway, I believe that you can learn a lot from the people on this list. I'm sure we'd all be glad to help get the Brandeis team to the next level.

Best,

Willy

Hi Willy,

The English use is not an issue with me (although I wish that pk did use proper English if he has command of it), but rather the issue is his lack of politeness and manners which comes through in his messages even though he writes in English very poorly. I consider myself to be a patient person, but pk has seriously crossed the line with me before and he received verbal reprimands from members of the list before, but since he has done it again, he obviously did not learn a lesson in better manners and to have at least a decorum of politeness. This is a site of 'no flames' as stated by Chris and that is a big part of the reason why I am on the list. Pk is not following the rules of this site. As I already stated he has been warned before but has not abided...so what other alternative is there than to sanction him from the list?

All the Best!

'Kam'-Wes Cameron, Si-Fu

Hi David,

About the vcd - I am actually getting mine directly from Albert now so can you give my reservation to someone else? Sorry for the inconvenience.

Also just wanted to check if you received the letter from Master Siow yet.

About the drumming notes - Layton Doung has volunteered to help me with this and I let him know about my plans to compile an online resource. He's got a lot of enthusiasm and resources so he's going to be a great help. The Hoc San notes will be sent to him for transcription very soon.

Question: did Master Siow ever talk to you about organizing a US lion dance body? I know a lot of people on the list see you as the senior organizer in the US, and we kinda assume that you would be the best candidate to get it all together. But have you really thought about it before? Just wondering because I think now is the right time to get it started.

Best,

Willy

The problem isn't your english, the problem is your attitude. And dude, you killed it with all this BS you are putting up. If you have a problem with somebody, take it off the list. THe emails of those who send replies on this list includes their email address. Do what you want with those but don't bring problems you have with others to this list.

Albert

Hey Sifu,

I wasn't aware that he created problems like this in the past.

I know that language isn't the real problem. pkjaijai has been rude and offensive, but maybe we lit a short fuse by not being careful enough with what we had to say. It's just that I think he needs some support and encouragement to develop a better attitude about respecting others. I would respect Chris' decision to kick him off the list because of is violations, but I also wanted him to publicly see that at least one person here won't give up on him if he makes an effort to change.

That guy who spammed us and then started flaming us (over the summer I believe) - that was inexcusable. But I think this is just a kid who needs to be reminded more often to respect others, that's all. Are you reading this, pk? This list is for people who seriously want to talk about lion dancing. You must respect us and we will respect you.

Best,

Willy

Willy,

Unfortunately, this is pretty common, even in the west. I don't know how much lower the judges scored the KSK than the Chinese team... but it's pretty common to see judges from the same school / hometown as the performers give higher than normal marks. When I was judging kung fu forms at tournaments, some of the other judges would give scores that did not seem too fair to me. I found out at a later time that the judges were from the same school as the performer. I think that was a bad thing to do of course, since it was disrespecting the time and effort the other performers had put into their superior performances, and totally misses the point of what a tournament is for. I had to judge a student from our school and was a little harsh on him because he made a mistake, but since I knew the form he was doing myself, I was more aware of the mistakes. Some other judges told me later that since other judges push their school's students scores up so much, the other judges also feel like they have to push their own students up as well. I think it's rotten.. but seems to be about the same everywhere you go.

One thing that I think would help is what the Olympics does, which is have judges from various countries scoring. Even then, you see the scores are pretty often slanted to their own performers.. and their enemies score low, but since the final score throws out the high and low score - it evens out in the end.

Geoff

> situation over there in Brandeis (Paul Hung used to write a lot on this
> list), but it will help you advance a great deal if someone with
> experience could help guide your troupe's training and development.

It's funny because Paul was the one who first taught me liondance and now our team has progressed beyond what I expected from that first crazy band of ragtag liondancers I met when I started...

> Andrew, you say that you can't afford a master or instructor to teach
> you? What are the going rates for these kinds of instructions? Are
> there many instructors over there in Massachusetts?

Well, I don't even know if any instructors around here would be willing to trek over here to Brandeis and instruct us. To tell the truth I've always kind of associated liondance with martial arts and figured we'd have to already be 'in' to get lessons. I don't even really know how we would go about finding an instructor if we had any money we could pay for one with.

> Anyway, I believe that you can learn a lot from the people on this list.
> I'm sure we'd all be glad to help get the Brandeis team to the next
> level.

Glad for your support. It really makes me feel glad when groups that are more advanced than mine are encouraging towards us. It helps make me believe in my team a little more. And by the way, if anyone on this list is geographically close to Waltham MA and wants to hold a joint event here or somewhere else, or even wants to get together and shoot the breeze feel free to contact me. My people are friendly and love to learn and work with others. Peace.

Andy

I have been trying to catch up some on this list, and wanted to briefly express my opinions and recollections on a couple of issues.

First, while PK has not been the ideal example of politeness and maturity, he has not been, in my humble opinion, offensive enough to warrant explusion from the list. Especially by internet standards. On most lists, what he has posted is quite mild. That may not be the standard you want to use, but it nevertheless is true. I've certainly seen much more heated and offensive posts before on serious lists.

I would also add that, as I remember the bruhaha over whether he made racist comments or not, there was no agreement the allegration was justified. I recall that I didn't not feel his comments were racist, and I was not alone. Others did, including Sifu Cameron. Given the lack on consensus on that point, I do not think it is a fair point to raise.

I note further than he didn't particularly launch into any personal attacks, which is a common cause to remove somebody from a list.

Additionally, it seems to me that some responses to points he made were themselves written in a way could be perceived as insulting or attacking, although I could not divine such a motivation in his original posts.

Therefore, I do not think there is sufficient cause to remove him. Of course, this is entirely up to the list master. But PK really doesn't seem to represent much of a disturbance.

I also agree that proper spelling would be nice, but his phonetic spelling doesn't really bother me. Proper English is not so necessary if that is not the language of your land. If it is that bothersome to you, though, I would just filter out his messages. He doesn't post enough to make it that big of an issue, I think.

Finally, let's not air all our pet peeves on the list. It is the list master's perogative to decide these issues, and to bring them up with members. Let's not have multiple list masters. The fact is that nothing has been posted that warranted the big deal discussions that have sometimes ensued certain initially innocuous posts. It's the net; thick skins are always helpful because of its limitations as a way of communication. Offense is easily taken where none is intended. That is the nature of the beast.

And yeah, I know this post goes a little against the previous paragraph, but at this point I wanted to get my two cents in in the hopes of curtailing the discussion and preventing what I think is an unjustified expulsion from the list.

Send comments (if you must) directly to me, not to the list.

Okay, back to lion dancing!

BTW, I will get back to those who emailed me. I'm just way behind on my email.

Chris
Christopher Yau Choy Young

I've been reading the list and considering what everybody's had to say on the matter at hand. To be honest it isn't entirely up to me anymore since Rob & Serhat took over list administration duties a few years ago when we moved the list to their server.

I just got back home from my weekend vacation and I'm tired, probably a bit grouchy and the fact that I have a project due for class tomorrow that I haven't worked on yet isn't helping. I'm sure you don't want to hear about my problems, but all that to say that I'm not going to be making any decision on this until after I've had a chance to settle back down and think rationally.

In the mean time if you have anything else to sayon the matter feel free to send the comments to admin@liondancing.org Serhat, Rob and I will each get a copy of it and take it under advisement.

If anything else comes over the general list about it I probably won't look too kindly on the comments expressed.

As I expressed to the other administrators in a private email earlier, I really wish it didn't come to this point, but with the list growing like it has I guess it was bound to happen sooner or later.

I'll keep everyone informed as things develop

Chris

Ladies and gentlemen,

Probably everyone should say one phrase less. Remember this: No one can clap with one hand/palm.

I have been reading most the posts recently and I hardly can find anything useful from each other if most of us continue on like this.

I am a rare contributor this "community" and I believe we all should achieve or learn something when we involve ourselves in this.

The reason for this post is because I woke up in the middle of the night and I could not sleep. Just thought I should contribute between winks and make good use of my time.

Something useful should be said/posted/mentioned on "publications" or whatever the correct term for this(I not familiar with the internet lingo....Sorry) i.e. like issue of "female practitioners not traditionally permitted to do lion dance". I think each of us learn something from this. Even for newcomers who are not well versed with the traditional chinese customs could learn something from this.

I will contribute from time to time but as for now I wish all of you well and thanks to Chris for taking time to create this website and newsgroup.

My name is Kin and I am a Choy Li Fut and Do Pi practitioner from Toronto, Ontario Canada.

Thank you.

Aloha Lion Dancers,

For a person in Hawaii, not speaking proper English isn't necessarily a sign of poor education. In fact, kids and some adults in Hawaii casually speak a local slang called Pidgin English.

I for one use Pidgin English when with friends and my Lion Dance Team. Many of us completed college, have jobs, and families. We use proper English when needed, such as in the work place.

When to use this slang may be the issue, not whether a person is obtuse.

Like Hawaii, the World is becoming more of a global community. There will be conflicts along the way when trying to communicate across cultures.

Pidgin English was developed this way years ago when immigrants to Hawaii tried to communicate to each other speaking a different language. Who knows what the Internet will do in terms of global communication.

Eighty 8

Hi guys,

anyone in Singapore who could help this person out?

Thanks,
Rob

Ps sorry for my silence, I'm looking at a change of job and country in the next month,.... I'll see if I can take some time to do something for the list-www page(s)...

>Sender: Irene.Chew@singapore.sun.com
>Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 18:58:35 +0800
>From: irene chew
>Subject: HireALion
>
>Hi
>
>I would like to enquire on the above. I am not sure if you are in
>Singapore. We would like to do something different rather than
>just hiring a troupe. Would like to participate with some of our
>people for company dinner and dance...Is there anyone who
>can teach in English too...
>
>Please advise who I can talk to with regards to this.
>
>Appreciate your help.
>
>Regards
>Irene

I believe PK can speak/write perfect english. He is just using a form of slang as he writes. Nothing wrong with that. It's just that not all of us can really understand it.

Do u guys remember the competition 4 years ago in SF with Tat Wong at USF. The last two teams, YKM and White Crane. YKM did a great performance and so did White Crane except that WC did an extra dip and fell. We know one of the SIFU (judge) from Seattle and he said if WC did not go for the extra dip and just retreated back they would have won the aduld championship. Just a FYI

Willy,

Noted about the VCD. No problem.

Letter from Siow received, but not read yet (my Chinese is poor so waiting for translation before I reply). I am also recuperating from a month long illness so have not been doing much. I am ok now, but am on my way for business to Mexico City and will return on Friday to reply.

Master Siow did mention an association here. At the time I was not sure if it was needed, but maybe ....

Will think about this and reply when I return.

Glad to know you have connected with Layton - the book from Taiwan is here and will mail to you when I return. Can you give me your mailing address again?

thanks,
David

Hey people, I would like to get a copy of the vcd also. can you tell me how i can do that? Please reply with any information. Thank You

Hi,

Re 2000 lion dance championship VCD:

George Chan will be sending to me in San Francisco around 40 sets very soon. He is just waiting for the Malaysian distributor to get them to him and then he will send all these to save air postage. Since he lives in Malaysia where they have foreign currency controls, by having the Chinese Performing Arts Foundation distribute them in North America at cost will eliminate collecting foreign currency checks from all those that want a copy. As soon as I receive them, I will post that they have arrived and advise the actual cost to distribute to you in North America.

If you want a copy, let me know and I will reserve one for you.

Rgds,
David

yes i would like a copy, can you please reserv me one. thank you

Was the White Crane team that participated in that competition from Leung's White Crane?

Wow...so many post had to read.....personally...i dont think i were rude....how were i rude in thef irst place??..i said plz dont say there should be lion dance along wit kung fu(something like that)....than WeS talked bout northern shaolin blah blah...than i repsonded wit tehre is a southern shaolin too...blah blah...than he said he said somethin bout southern shaolin too...blah blah...than i responded wit i really dont see it unless im blind...bl;ah blah...than he respond wit u really do need glasses(how rude)...balh blah....than he respond again wit wow u dont need glasses...balh blah....so how were i rude??.....and if yall want...ban me...go ahead...i jus make a new email and sign on...and ban my IP...i got ways around that...=)....let see...were this better spelling??...and no i dont know proper english....school dont really teach that stuff anymore..the teachers says its pointless....if you can speak english thats good enouugh.

AMAZING!!!!

Hey Dave, just reminding you that I requested to reserve a copy for me. I Didn't know if you remember. Hey Dave, when is the flower festival this coming year?

Albert Le

Sorry Chris Young, but if you send to the general list then it is reasonable to expect to receive a reply on the general list. Sanction does not necessarily mean expulsion, but can also take other forms - I did not say expel - just "sanction from the list". At first I tried to use humor with him but pk kept running off at the mouth - if he had not -I would not have pursued this as far as I have - quite frankly, it is becoming tiresome. Now - look how he has replied to all members of this list if he is expelled - "and if yall want...ban me...go ahead...i jus make a new email and sign on...and ban my IP...i got ways around that...=)"..... Racist comments - yes I think it was a fair point to raise regardless of consensus or not - same logic applies - why would it be unfair just because of a stalemate? Motivation for impoliteness - who knows what drives him - it would just be nice if he could make positive contributions to the list and not think he knows it all especially on topics (Chinese Martial Arts) which he has demonstrated a lack of knowledge and understanding - a mature person would recognize those with more knowledge and experience and graciously accept it. Personal attack or not - it depends on ones definition of such. "its the net" - the net is no reason for individuals to be arrogant and have a lack of manners and since we are involved in Chinese arts where proper etiquette is required - then why not require it on this site (which it does["No Flames"] as far as I know).

Well, my Si-Fu was strict on politeness, manners and etiquette (and if you were not - he in no uncertain terms let you know about it) and I guess I take after his standard -'Like Father, Like Son'.

Well this has been far too long of a post - my apologies to everyone for that.

All the Best!
'Kam'-Wes Cameron, Si-Fu

Who could blame the teachers? With attitudes like this, I would have to be paid a nice 6 digit salary to teach... and they'd have to allow the paddle back into schools.

sorry for the off topic post.

Geoff

Yes it was Leung's White Crane in the Tat Wong Competition.

yeh...we shood make a board for dis list to skreen out da riff raff. requirements is proper englich and sirious talkin only and of corse must be able to lion dance too...

Thanks for the info! really appreciate it.

David,

I would like to reserve a copy. How do I do that?