I think all sides needs to give some personal time and thought to this matter. So, please just work it out on your own time and leave the time on this list for discussing lion dancing. Let's move on.

Vinh Nguyen

The List Administrators (Serhat Sakarya, Rob Teng, and me) sent this out yesterday, but there were some problems getting it routed to the general list, so I'm sending them out again. If you have any comments or feedback on them please feel free to let us know at admin@liondancing.org

_____________________________________________________________________

In response to some recent posts, the administrators of this email list have found it necessary to set a few guidelines that we as lion dancers should be upholding. Since the administrators are only representatives for the group we will allow the group to decide when a violation has occurred.

If you feel a violation of the standards set for this mailing list has occurred, DO NOT post a message to the general mailing list saying so. As we have seen, this will only make the matter worse. Instead, email the administrators at admin@liondancing.org and register a complaint. We will investigate it. If it is a serious violation we will take the proper disciplinary action. If we do not feel it warrants action we will see what the consensus of the group is. If we receive five or more complaints about it we will act based on the situation. In general:

One violation will result in a warning letter sent by the administrators describing the violation.

Two violations in six months will result in the violator being suspended from posting to the list for a full month.

If disciplinary action needs to be taken against an individual three times in any six-month period, the list administrators will take further measures as warranted by the severity of the situation. This may include termination of the account. Any account terminated can petition the administrators to rejoin the list after six months.

The rules are basic and straightforward:

1) Absolutely no flaming. By definition a "flame" is "a searing message in which the writer attacks another participant in overly harsh, and often personal, terms." If there is a misunderstanding of something you said, gently explain what you meant in a way that is not insulting, belittling, or harassing. If you think somebody has flamed you, reread what they wrote carefully--see if perhaps they meant it as a joke or if they were just not clear about what was said. Do not take insult at every little thing. If in doubt, ask before reacting. Most of the time the members of this list have been able to detect flames and ignore them. To acknowledge them is to give the author license to continue posting similar messages, degenerating the level of the list.

2) The list is for discussing lion dancing and topics related to lion dancing. If you found a way to make a million dollars overnight, good for you--we don't want to hear about it on this list! If you want to buy a VCD from David Lei, tell him, not the entire list. If you discover your long lost cousin is also a list member, use private email for the reunion. If you are selling a lion head for less than $100, tell me first...

3) List members are to be treated with respect. Regardless of their level of knowledge or how they treat you, this list is not the place to get caught up in personality conflicts. Remember when you post to the list people will judge your character by what is reflected in your post. There is a fine line between debate and argument, use discretion when posting and we won't have to question your intentions.

4) Use English to the best of your ability. While we recognize that not everyone has the same level of English writing ability and are especially sensitive to people from countries where English is not the primary language, we feel that the discussions on this list should be treated seriously. Posting in slang or with grammar that is incomprehensible downgrades the level of the list and the enjoyment of the list members.

5) Administrators can declare certain topics closed. If a topic becomes personal or no longer of interest to the general list population we reserve the right to ask that it be moved off of the list.

More rules may be added if it becomes necessary to do so, but for now consider the 12 character principles, 16 commandments, and 12 Do-nots of Chen style Tai Chi. I suggest we adapt them to lion dancing and use them to guide our conduct on the list.

A. 12 Character Principles
1.Law abiding
2.Respectful
3.Just
4.Straightforward
5.Kind-hearted
6.Noble
7.Magnanimous
8.Brave
9.Loyal
10.Dedicated
11.True to oneself
12.Well-mannered

B. 16 "Commandments"
1.Do not bully others
2.Do not bully the weak
3.Do not be a coward
4.Do not use underhanded methods
5.Do not be boastful or egotistical
6.Do not bum around or be dependent on others
7.Do not be too full of oneself and think that you're the best
8.Do not seek to compete to prove your superiority
9.Do not be ignorant
10.Do not be proud of your wealth
11.Do not look down on others lacking in wealth or talent
12.Do not indulge in alcohol
13.Do not put yourself over others
14.Do not hunger after power
15.Do not be a betrayer
16.Do not let yourself slacken in your daily practice of Taiji

C. 12 Do Nots
1.Not be unscrupulous
2.Not be evil at heart
3.Not be a bum
4.Not be cunning
5.Not gamble
6.Not cheat others
7.Not be proud
8.Not be of low character
9.Not be hypocritical
10.Not be dishonest
11.Not be over-confident
12.Not be ruthless

whelp...guess datz da end of da line for PK...okie..baih baih..who's next?

Hi guys,

Thks for the responses Willy & guys! The following is what Master Mak, who was one of the 2 judges present in the Oct 1 competitions in China, told me about the event.

The competition organising committee was very poor as only on competition eve that the organiser dicussed about what rules to use! Master Mak knew then that there was 'something funny' with the competition. They then decided to use the IDLDA rules but then added that the 2 judges from their representive country are only allowed to judge simutaneously their own country! ie. 1 Malaysian judge did not judge any other team except the Malaysian teams whereels the other one judge the whole competition. And this info was was only known to the Malaysian judges when KSK's manager, Mr Tan, inform them after it was announced during the team leaders's pre-competition conference(where the judges were not allowed to participate). When master Mak tols the organisers that this was never done in any IDLDA competitions before the response was: Let's see if this one is better. Personnally, I feel this really affected the score as the Malaysian and Chinese Judges were exposed to very different standards of lion dancing.

The winning Chinese team did have really impressive stunts, like very long leaps and long wires but the form was less impressive. They even coppied the old Singapore stunt of 'summersault'. However, I guess we won't know for sure how good they are before they compete on more 'neutral' ground.

As for IDLDA's HQ in Beijing, I guess it is only fair to have a 'Chinese culture-originated sport' HQ in the capital of the "Chinese world".

I have always believed that the LD really needs more participation from US for its own good. People there have attitudes that are much more 'civil' and 'sporting' which is sorely needed in LD to see it survive into the future and become something that we will all be proud of. From what I saw and heard when I was in SF last year I also know that the LD community in US is 'a real force to be reckond with'. I think that the USA has the most Chinese population and lion dance team in the 'Western' world. I know that dis-unity is however the biggest stumbling block but I believe it will change, like it did over here (even if it is only 'grudgingly'). Someone must make that tiny but brave first steps, like what David and the Chinese Performing Arts Foundation did in SF, to start things going.

Well, that's all from me at the momment.

George,
Malaysia

Hey all! Sorry it's a rather late reply, but I'm really .. interesting, surprised and enjoyed!!! Hahhahaaaa... Both Chris's and George's dreams are.. WOW!

>> Someone I don't recognize, but in my dream I knew his name was Ben was sitting near them holding his 3-year-old daughter. He picked up some of the firecrackers because they looked unlit and showed them to me saying, "Remember when we were kids and we'd always look for these after a lion dance?" I kicked them out of his hand shouting, "No! Drop them, they're lit!" and as they hit the ground the fuses flared and they exploded.<<

When I read this part, I remember that one of my friend who was inside the lion was burned as a firestick had accidentally been kicked into the inside of the lion. Lucky that he reacted fastly and got out of the lionhead.

>>Sifu Doc Fai Wong smiled and held the duck out to me and said, "Come try." My mom asked him what was in the duck and he said it was part of the puzzle that needed to be solved.<<

Does a lion eat roasted duck? Yummy... cool lion! :) Pizza next time.

>>The room went silent except for my brother drumming and everybody was watching me.<<

This part... hopefully will come true, Chris. Amien!

>>Finally Master Siow came in with a dark blue hok san head and made the approach. I was really relieved, and backed off to watch. Sifu Patrick Lee from Los Angeles started to play my drum, but Master Siow waived him off and indicated that he only wanted clapping. So everybody started clapping in unison a really simplified 5-star beat. Then people started playing some odd instruments, like a capoiera berimbau, a bongo drum, and Jarrett Chin from San Francisco even started to play a full western drum set. Master Siouw said he enjoyed the new innovations and kept dancing.<<

I love this part!!! Master Siow replacing you! That's what I call news! Humm.. maybe Master Siow should be told about your "music style", how would you know if someday there will be "Chris drumming style"???

>>To solve the puzzle he fisrst cracked all the eggs into the center bowl with one hand. He then split the duck into 3 equal portions and put one in each bowl. We saw that the inside was stuffed with raw beef marinated in oyster sauce.<<

I've just known that Master Siow is also good at cooking!!! Fried scrambled eggs?

>>He used one of my drumsticks to scramble the eggs in the bowl and stirred in the beef. This kind of made me upset, but when it's Master Siow what can you do?<<

There is............ nothing... you can do. Oh, there is! Go run and take chopsticks!

>>Then I went back to watching Master Siow. He had just put three sticks of incense into each bowl and was lighting them with a cigarette lighter held in the mouth of the lion. I thought, "Isn't the lion supposed to be afraid of fire?"<<

You are a real liondancer. You can still think during the dream about such fact, hehheeee...

>>I thought, "I'd never have been able to do that, but shouldn't he have bowed three times after lighting the incense?" I wasn't attacking his technique, I was just curious.<<

If Master Siow really did that and you asked him, believe me he would laugh. Not annoyed.

>>My Gung-gung showed up and told me, "The man who solved the puzzle, I think he's a little better than you." I said, "Yes, he trains more."<<

He trains more? Yes, he does ^^

>>thought, "What a weird group of events to have liondancing at. Then I woke up.<<

Too bad... the story ends... OK, stop laughing. Everytime I laugh my cheeks muscles get stronger and tired, hehehheee...

>>So what does it mean? I think it means I had too much to eat for the Thanksgiving holiday... Hope you enjoyed it<<

Yes, I do, Chris.. we do, hehehee... I think this mailinglist needs some fresh air like this mail ^^ It is still connected with lion dance, isn't it? By the way Chris, did you eat roasted duck istead or turkey on the thanksgiving day?

care,

Vela

no...it's just to stretch before beginning the liondance.

Cheesin:

Stretching before beginning a liondance is good in loosening up joint and tendons in order to do the stances better. What we are talking about is the movements done just before entering the lion head. Normally it's a simple salutation.

JSing

Hi All,

Received this info below. Anyone have any experience with this person - quality, price, reliability?

All the Best.
'Kam' - Wes Cameron, si-fu

To whom it may concern,

If you are looking for lion dance equipment supplier, look no more because my company will cater to all your needs. For I am involved in the dance myself, you bet I know what you want.

First, a good lion head must be strong and yet light in weight. Second, it must be beautiful. Final, it must be affordable. The recent why I know so well, because I am the Executive secretary and coach for Meng Kok lion dance Association. My team are one the top teams in Malaysia. With strong support from my master (Sifu Lim Meng Kok), who manufacture the lion head, I dare to approached you because I know you will be happy with the final product. Not only lion dance costumes, but from metal poles with international standard to uniform, T-shirt, flags, and even conducting seminar/classes on traditional lion dancing. I have trained teams from Indonesia and Canada. I am also an advisor for a team in Hong Kong and France.

So with all the experience stated, I am sure you have made-up your mind. But if you still have any doubt, do not hesitate to contact me. http://www.oocities.org/lionmk99/springrace.htm

Thanks for your time! Bye

Yours Faithfully,

Lawrence Ng

'Kam' - Wes Cameron, si-fu

I am fairly new to this area yet I'll put in my question. Why is it that I've seen these same pictures before on a different web-site?? Now i'm not saying that this is going to be a fraud or not but I blieve i've seen these same pictures on a different web-site which is also selling lions. (I don't remember which one though) Now is not right to just copy off another website? Unless they are affiliated with each other which negates everything i just said. Well I'm not sure but just trying to keep my conscience up to date here.

Shel

Hi Sifu Wes Cameron,

I don't personally know Lawrence Ng,but I have inquired him from my kung fu brother who recently came back from Malaysia,indeed Mr. Ng is in charge with training of Meng Kok Lion Dance team,and he does sell Lim Meng Kok made lion,he have recently expand his range of products from banners to wushu uniform,I think our group is ordering some flags and uniform from him,reliability I can not vouch it because I do not know him personally,but the quality of lion head from Sifu Lim Meng Kok I can say it is good.My Kung Fu brother said Lawrence is a long time friend and is reliable.

Arnold Buenviaje

I'm sure other traditions are different but the Hung Gar tradition (down from the real Wong Fei Hong, blah, blah, blah) is to have a short form done to display your Kung Fu and identify your school. As mentioned before, look at the movies Young Master with Jackie Chan and Dreadnaught with Yuen Biao. It happens that the director is from Hung Gar lineage as well. I think someone mentioned that in Hawaii, Kong's kung fu does this. I assume that is Kong, Buck Sam who gets his lion dance from Hung Gar too. Finally, I think Sifu Kam is also of Hung Gar lineage.

Also, the first measure and movements after the bow is a signature of your school. This comes from my Sifu and Si-Sook and two lineages of Hung Gar schools from Hong Kong.

Of course, we may be the only folks to do it this way.

Stephen.

We're a Hung school up here in Seattle and we also have a short form we do before going under the lions. From memory, I think it looks similar to the one that was in Dreadnaught. Like you say, you can tell the schools apart by the way they do their salute, either with forms or lions.

Geoff

Lawerence Ng is the contact person for springgrace enterprise. check on the lion's cave to know where. If they look familiar, they probably are the same pictures. the company posts the same pictures they send out for their products. So it's pretty much negated.

Albert

Lion Dance Members,

This is an update on our club's problems with Mr. Peter Seen in regards to a lion head that we ordered from him in July and never was delivered. After posting our problem to warn potential buyers of lion dance equipment from Peter Seen, his club's sifu found out and fixed the problem. Since he does not speak the English language, he asked Mr. Lawrence Ng from Springrace Enterprises to help him send the lion head to us. Sifu Lim Meng Kok makes the lion dance equipment. Springrace Enterprises sells his equipments. Sifu Lim Meng Kok is the sifu for his club, Meng Kok Lion Dance Association.

Anyway, after lots of correspondence between Lawrence and myself, we finally got our lion head air freighted to Honolulu last Wednesday. We had our lion blessings ceremony last Saturday night. Peter Seen is no where to be found. From what I understand, Peter is no longer selling Sifu Lim's lion equipments and was kicked out of the Meng Kok Lion Dance Association. Peter has kept the money we cabled him and Sifu Lim sent the lion head at no charge. I guess to save face, he donated the lion head to us. For future purchases of equipment, you can buy from Sifu Lim's company, Lo Fo Chi Trading Company, if you speak Chinese. If you don't speak the language, I recommend Mr. Lawrence Ng from Springrace Enterprises. He is the secretary of Meng Kok Lion Dance Association. His company's web site is http://www.oocities.org/lionmk99/springrace.htm. This is not an endorsement for his company but without his help, we would not have received our lion head. I have never met him personally but I have emailed him over 10 emails and he sincerely replied to each one of my emails. He is truely a gentleman and a professional proudly representing his sifu's line of lion dance equipment.

Aloha,
Ernie Loo

Geoff,

Hello, How are you doing ? Anyway, you're right, I was referring to Sifu Bucksam Kong, of Los Angeles. He's a student of Lum Jo, who's probably in his 90's today. If you read the issues of Inside Kung Fu Magaines. There are times when one of his students write an article about him. Although, he did learn his Hung Gar from Grandmaster Lum Jo, Sifu Kong hired a Choy Li Fut Master Named Sifu Mak Hin Fai. To come from Hong Kong to Hawaii to teach Lion Dance ( Choy Li Fut Style ) of coarse, and to teach classes on Choy Li Fut style of Kung Fu. Sifu Mak Hin Fai Learned his Choy Li Fut Kung Fu from the late Sifu

Geoff,

Sorry for the incomplete email message. I accidently hit the wrong button like the send. when I was writing this post, so excuse me.

Anyway, to conclude this email as I said Sifu Mak Hin Fai learned his Choy Li Fut and the traditional lion dance from the late Sifu Lee Kung Hung. Sifu Mak Hin Fai who is in the current issues of January issue of 2001. Sifu Mak Hin Fai is involved in an article on Choy Li Fut's advance form. My former math teacher was a former member of Bucksam Kong's Sil Lum Pai Kung Fu Assn. He's the one that shared this story with me, and my good friend was a former member of Kong's Sil Lum Pai and Sifu Mak Hin Fai's Choy Li Fut kung fu club.

That's how I became familiarized with this 2 sifus. Sifu Lee Koon Hung died I think 3 or 4 years ago in a florida hospital. He was having a heart transplant at that time, and there was also complications too. So unfortunately he did'nt survive. But he was a good Choy Li Fut Sifu, though. Lee Koon Hung was also responsible for teaching and training well Known Sifu Tat Mau Wong, I think you people may be familiar with this things. So now, Sifu Tat Mau Wong and Lee Koon Hung's younger brother Lee Siu Loong or Lung, is now continuing the traditions of his older brother Lee Koon Hung. And so as Sifu Mak Hin Fai and Sifu Tat Mau Wong are doing the same thing, continuing the Choy Li Fut traditions.

There is also Hung Gar lion dance too, like Sifu Geoff was saying in his email to the list. And in New York City, I know like Sifu Frank Yee who is a student of Sifu Yuen Lin if I'm not mistaken. The Hung Gar lion dance is good too, I've seen a video on Sifu Frank Yee's Lion Dance performance. Was outstanding, Sifu Frank Yee is an expert in the Hung Ga style of Kung Fu. If I'm not mistaken Hung Ga is another name for Hung Gar. Well, you can correct me if I'm wrong.

If you look at the fist forms of Hung Gar, and Choy Li Fut. It looks similiar but different in their own way. Because, both style have their own tiger-crane form and their own five animal fist form, but it's different. Both Choy Li Fut and Hung Gar styles of lion Dance is also unique to perform and watch too. The drum beat is still the same though, because of their deep roots in culture and traditions. Anyway take care geoff, I'm just sharing this info with you, take care.

Laine

Si-fu Kam,

Lawrence is a nice guy. He went out of his way to get our lion head which Peter Seen did not ship. Lawrence did not make a single penny from us but he felt the obligation to fulfill our order just for Sifu Lim's reputation. If we order lion heads again, we definitely will order from him.

Aloha,

Ernie Loo

Dear Ernie,

I am very happy that your lion was finally sent to you by Lawrence,I told my Kung Fu Brother who was going to Malaysia to inform Sifu Lim Meng Kok beforehand of what happen (Because Sifu Lim is our instructor and a good friend),When my brother got there Sifu Lim Meng Kok told him he have taken care of the matter,I didn't know that he sent you a lion without getting the money from Peter Seen.At least this will clear Sifu Lim of any misunderstanding that have arised from this incident.happy lion dancing to you !!!

Arnold

What does a lion blessing ceremony consist of?

Andy!

Hello Everyone,

Can anyone describe to me the details in a lion blessing ceremony? Thanks in advance.

Vinh Nguyen