> Our team calls the beats by different names, though. I think most teams
>have their own terminology/conventions for the beats and movements in the
>lion dance. It mainly depends on who's doing the teaching and the style
>being taught. I think if you ask 10 different lion dance instructors on
>what is the proper way to do things (like head movement and music), you'd
>get 10 different answers.

I agree that names and actual techniques would be different. What are the things that would be the same? I guess we could go to Dr. Hu's book and use the competition guidelines but that seems excessive. (maybe not)

I'm looking at things like:

1) Low dance should have solid stances. (No standing)
2) The mouth should be open/closed/controlled in ...
3) No Camels. (Tail with head too high)

There are a bunch of things we are told to watch out for. If I get time and there is interest, I'll put a list together and we can go from there.

--
Stephen Chew "Turn the crap of yesterday,
BroadVision, Inc. into the fertilizer of tomorrow"
Worldwide Customer Support

Steve -

The video clip you saw with Yau Kung Moon might have been one of Sifu Tat Mau Wong's competition tapes. For those of you who haven't heard of it, Sifu Wong puts on one of the largest Chinese Martial Arts competitions in North America every other year and is one of the first to include a Lion Dance competition.

I have a copy of the 1993 competition that was broadcast on channel 26 (in the Bay Area) and as I said previously his Advanced Techniques video - if anyone is interested in borrowing them, I'm willing to pay postage to send them to you, but you gotta promise to send 'em back! Or if there's a waiting list, send it to the next person on the list. I'm also interested in seeing the other tape you got (I might also have this one, but you might have a cleaner copy) Do you think we can work something out?

Incidently, do any of you Bay Area people know when Sifu Wong's next competition will be? Next year if I'm not mistaken. Maybe some of us SoCal people can get a trip together and meet up with you - anyone interested?

Chris

Sifu Wong hasn't had a competition since 1993. He's a very busy person. I'll let you know if I hear that he is having a competition this year.

I agree that Sifu Wong's videos might not be helpful to a lot of established groups and are quite boring after you've seen them several times, but there is not much else out there in terms of instructional lion dance videos. Beginning groups can certainly pick up techniques from these videos.

Greg
----------

Hola People...

Can anyone recommend a mail order company that make customized complete set of Lion Head & Body Uniform ? Our group here in Austin is being formed from scratch... so any info you can pass onto would be appreciated. Thanks.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Leon Z. Lee lee@arlut.utexas.edu
Applied Research Laboratories University of Texas at Austin

----Leon Lee wrote -------
> Hola People...
>
> Can anyone recommend a mail order company that make customized
> complete set of Lion Head & Body Uniform ? Our group here in
> Austin is being formed from scratch... so any info you can pass
> onto would be appreciated. Thanks.
>

We are also looking for this. I had an email discussion with Cory Chan on this and we didn't know where we could get a full sett locally (SF Bay Area) so I'm interested in mail order as well.

--
Stephen Chew "Turn the crap of yesterday,
BroadVision, Inc. into the fertilizer of tomorrow"
Worldwide Customer Support

Whoever had the chance to buy a drum for $150, even if it's not a jumbo jumbo size, get it. That's a pretty KILLER price for getting a lion dance drum in the United States. Most places want $350 and up! Make sure you get a look at it before you buy it though, you don't want it if it looks like the sides are splitting apart.

Here's what little I know about getting lion heads. The number one thing to consider when buying new equipment is the team's budget. If the team has around $400-600 to spend on a head and tail, and if they're in a hurry, and if they have no contacts overseas, or if no one's on vacation, then they gotta get their stuff here I guess. In San Francisco's Chinatown, Cheong Kee Jan (on Grant Avenue between Clay and Washington) has a few. Liu Bei, Chang Fei models (~$550?), a northern lion and baby (~$3500 forget it!), and even a northern dragon. Also, there's a place called Clarion Music Center on Sacramento (at Waverly Place). They also had a golden lion to look at. Maybe a few others. I think they're probably cheaper. Some pants are available too. The heads from both places look the same. Typical Fatsan lion heads from Guangdong. Not the greatest, but on a budget, who's got much of a choice? Mr. Ma at Clarion also has all the musical instruments you'll ever need for any lion dance. If one has contacts with someone in Yau Gung Moon, I hear they buy lions by the container full. But you'll have to work out your own deal. Sifu Robert Lee from Marin can also get equipment, head and tail ~$500-$550 less shipping. The whole nine yards, plus an even bigger selection of colors.

I Los Angeles' Chinatown, I saw at least a couple of stores that stocked lions. I don't remember price or quality though. Down there you're on your own.

In Hong Kong, I've seen four places, I remember two. 1) Pak Wan Sports Co. and 2) Luen Fat Cheung. Now before anybody jumps on me, let's just say everybody has their own preference for lions. If you like the way your lion looks, then your lion is the best lion for you. That's it. We've bought lions from Sifu Mok at Pak Wan because the colors are vibrant, the balls are great, and the heads are strong. One feature that is uniquely theirs is that their lions also have some plastic (thick fishing line) hair. Advantage: plastic hair looks the same ten years later (it'll last longer than the lion head itself). Disadvantage: looks like plastic hair (if you don't like plastic hair). If you ask for nice material on the pants and tail, you get it. You'll be PAYING for it, but you get it. We like their stuff. I have no experience with Luen Fat Cheung's heads. I've seen pictures. You name it, they make it. And then some. Anybody ever seen a tiger head? They've got that too. Sifu Chan there was very nice to me. Other people around here prefer his lions.

Price for a custom lion with shoes and pants from Hong KongŠprobably in the neighborhood of $2000. Nice neighborhood, huh? Like Boardwalk with a hotel. Tip: specify everything you can think of. Then ask someone else and have them think of more stuff that you may have forgotten to specify. Otherwise, you'll get the color du jour.

Lots of clubs around the Bay Area are getting lions from Malaysia and Singapore, and different parts of China. The stuff looks good. The balls could be better, but the fluffy and full hair looks really good on these lions. Unfortunately I have zippo knowledge of contacts in these countries. Anybody have any tips? Our club is also interested in purchasing a Malaysian lion.

> Lot's of great stuff from Cory deleted.

Thanks Cory, Those are good leads.

I'll pass those onto our team. I was the guy who said he could get a drum for $150.00. It's a decent size drum. I played it and it felt solid. In fact, the skin was very tight and seemed to have paint on the top. Is this normal?

Unfortuntely, they only had one. They 2 have medium sized ones for $138. We also bought a lion (red head/black fur w/ rainbow tail) for $425 out the door. The head was a Fatsan made head and was a little small. (shoulders were tight) It was fairly solid though. He has two more heads (not black fur) and one more tail. (he sells them seperately) His ask price is $330 for the head and $225 for the tail. We bargained him down. This is from a Chinese pot and vase place in San Leandro. (I can't remember the name) My wife buys lots of pots and Chinese stuff from here so that could be why he gave us a good deal.

The bad side is, he doesn't know if he'll get more. It's possible, if we get enough interest, he would make an effort to get more. I should caution that these are from China. Sturdy construction but the details aren't that hot. (coarse fur/hair, duller colors, basic designs) Overall a decent lion and can't beat the price. Since we rebuild our lions, we were not so concerned about these details.

If anyone is interested, I can co-ordinate.
Let me know.

--
Stephen Chew "Turn the crap of yesterday,
BroadVision, Inc. into the fertilizer of tomorrow"
Worldwide Customer Support

Hi Steve. Tight skin on the drum is a plus. Check all the nails that hold down the skin and make sure they're banged in solidly. Nothing worse than playing on a loose drum skin (dead sounding) with curled up edges that prevent you from playing the sides. The paint on top of the drum has nothing to do with the sound. The manufacturers just use that to decorate the skin and usually paint the name of their company (gum seng ring a bell?).

Sometimes small import/export companies do carry lion heads and tails. Usually the stuff from China because it's cheaper. Wouldn't make sense for them to carry the custom stuff and try to sell it. After markup, who'd buy it? Buyers can probably get a good deal if the store has been hanging onto dead merchandise for a long time. If their lion heads don't move that well, they might not want to risk ordering more unless they know that their stuff will be sold. Just don't look TOO interested when you're buying. Try to make some dissatisfied looking faces when you're examining the merchandise and point out any flaws you find. Then offer a lower price or be willing to walk away. If you're buying from afar with no opportunity to physically inspect your order, well, you pays your money and you takes your chances. Ask around for other peoples' experience with different heads and see what can go wrong with a lion head or what kinds of indicators of quality workmanship to look for.

>Lots of clubs around the Bay Area are getting lions from Malaysia and
>Singapore, and different parts of China. The stuff looks good. The balls
>could be better, but the fluffy and full hair looks really good on these
>lions. Unfortunately I have zippo knowledge of contacts in these countries.
>Anybody have any tips? Our club is also interested in purchasing a
>Malaysian lion.

I have not pursued this yet so don't hold your breath but my wifes uncle is a White Crane instructor in Johor Bahru, Malaysia. (It's the city across the bridge from Singapore) He also helps with the Lion Dance. I saw their lion dance 2 years ago (before I knew what I was looking at) and even then I thought Lion Dancing (not the lion itself) was different than here.

Before I talk to him though, How do people ship Lions overseas? I know he is not in the shipping business and this will be an issue. Any other things to consider. I ask this now because it is difficult to get a hold of him and the long distance charges can be murder.

So in short, I'm willing to pursue a malaysian/singapore connection (I may even be going there much later this year) but I would like some help from people that have dealt with overseas folks.

Stephen.

If you buy your lion dancing equipment overseas and you can't feasibly lug it back with your luggage, then the makers of the lion heads can probably help you in suggesting ways to get your equipment where it needs to go. For example, in my experience with the company that made my lion, they take the lion to someone that makes the wooden crate (additional charge of course ~US$200). Then the crate gets taken to a shipping company for you. Months later when the ship comes in, you'll get a letter from the shipping company asking you to pay for the shipping costs before they release your paperwork to you. Once you get the paperwork, you take it to customs (if you're lucky, they'll have a customs agent on site), and you'll pay your duties, depending on the contents of the crate. Bring tools like a claw hammer, tin snips, pliers, and a crow bar, just in case they ask you to open the crate. You'll need these tools anyway to get at your stuff, and you won't want to waste any time after waiting so long! Once duties are paid, the customs agent gives you more papers that authorize the shipping company to release your cargo. You may have to pay the shipping company another charge called the forklift charge $25-40, but last year we didn't have to. Bring a van or a truck that can hold the crate, and one or two strong dudes. Actually one guy alone can handle it if he's been waiting for his stuff for over a year! That tends to fill you with superhuman strength. Watch out for your back though, and bring a board to use as an inclined plane if you go it alone.

What's a good way to do a 3 person high shoulder stack? Besides what they do with the seesaw at the Ringling Brothers circus, I mean? And the safest way to dismount?

> From: cchan@icnc.com (Corey Chan)
> What's a good way to do a 3 person high shoulder stack? Besides what they
> do with the seesaw at the Ringling Brothers circus, I mean? And the safest
> way to dismount?
Wow! That is a novel Idea. Have you ever seen this done? I haven't. I could see different ways of doing it but they would be very difficult or kinda lame.

I'd like to see what you come up with. The seesaw wouldn't work unless you seesaw with the lion head. That WOULD be impressive.

Corey wrote:
> (snip a bunch of stuff about charges and waiting a long time)

That's pretty much been the experience of our group too. There's not too much you can do about it, but I've heard a lot of horror stories about dock workers (both in Asia & the US) not handling crates with proper care and people being out thousands of dollars when all they get is broken merchandise. I've heard of things like the forklift being rammed straight through crates, crates just being thrown straight off the ship onto the dock, etc... None of which is very good for lion dance equipment.

I've heard that the way to go is to have them packed and sent out as air freight. It's probably more expensive, but safer & faster.

I'm looking for a set of the big pom-pons that come out on the sides of the Southern lion's nose. Red & black, with or without the support springs. Does anyone know where I can get a set by mail order & approx. prices?

Good luck, Chris! Are you looking for just the front two pompons or the whole set? The front two, if you can find them in the colors you want (red and black) in the neighborhood of 4" in diameter should cost around $15 to $25 each. It'll be hard to find them sold singly though. If you buy the whole set for the lion, I'm assuming it's a Gwan Gung lion, then it should cost between $150-250. Yikes! That's if you can find someone that will make the purchase for you. The makers of lions in Hong Kong jealously guard this secret. They seem unwilling to divulge where they get the pompons from. Guess they feel it might hurt their business. You may be able to get them in China, though. Or try asking some Chinese opera guys about costumes and find out where they get theirs. If your pompons look a bit tired and you want to fluff them up again, take them off and take them to your kitchen stove. Boil some water in a kettle and hold the pompons over the steam and fluff them out. Then try not to let the little kids touch them anymore, because the oils from human hands aren't too good for the appearance of the pompons.

Years ago, I bought pompons from Cheong Kee Jan in San Francisco. They had balls of different sizes but they were all for multicolored lions. Not really the red/black color scheme I think you're looking for. I don't know if they've still got them, kind of hard to convince them to keep carrying merchandise that doesn't move quickly, but if you're out of options, I can check it out for you.

Corey

Hello!

My name is Robert H. Leong (not the Robert Leong at CalPoly). I'm new to this list, so I'm following the request for introductions.

I've been involved with Lion Dance for 25 years, and have been running a small team for CCBA (CCBA Lion Dance Team) for the last 13 years. Our team is in Portland, Oregon, and has a history that goes back to the turn of the century. As you may know, Portland, Oregon is a fairly small town, and this is the only continuously running team in that timeframe. I've been teaching the team every week for the past 12 years. Other teams come and go, but the CCBA team runs on like the Energizer bunny... It's a lot of fun for me, and I volunteer my time for teaching. Our members are all volunteers, and come from different ethnic backgrounds and from both sexes.

We currently have a small team, with about 10 members. We practice southern and southern/northern styles Lion Dance, in conjunction with martial arts training. In the past, the team has taught Wing Chun and Pak Gua, but currently we are working on Karate, which as you know is a derivative of Chinese Shaolin and Okinawan martial arts. My brother-in-law, Kevin Yeo, is a black belt, and have been teaching the team while I work on the Lion Dance aspect of it. It's a lot of fun. Our lions are from PRC, Hong Kong, Republic of China, and Singapore. I personally like the ones from Hong Kong (Fut Shan) and Singapore (Hok Shan style) the best.

We have performed all over the State of Oregon, and the team has sometimes swelled up to 25 members. I'd be interested in sponsoring a get together, or a seminar series, or a competition at some point. How about you guys?

Feel free to contact us, I'd love to hear from any of you.

Robert H. Leong

I know most of us are on the West Coast, but if anyone will be in the Cleveland area in September, this may be worth checking out - An open invitation to participate in the opening lion dance for the Han Wei National Martial Arts Championships -

>We are going to have the 1996 Han Wei National Martial Arts Championship
>and having 5 lion dances to open the tournament, or probably more, with
>one group doing the drums... we would like to see if you guys might be
>interested in coming and participate or having someone on the list that
>might be near Cleveland to participate with us, please let me know...
>enclosed is a e-version of the flyer.
>
>Thanks.
>
>
>Advance Notice:
>
>
>1996 Han Wei National Martial Arts Championship
>
>
>OPEN TO ALL STYLES FROM USA AND CANADA
>
>Saturday, September 28, 1996
>
>
>Cleveland State University Woodling Gym
>Cleveland, Ohio
>
>Divisions include:
>Taijiquan Divisions * Other Internal Arts Divisions
>Open Hand Divisions * Weapons Divisions
>2 Man Open Hand & Weapons Divisions
>Light Contact Divisions * Push Hands Divisions
>Grappling & San Da Full Contact Divisions
>
>Workshops available on
>To be Anounced.
>
>Prizes:
>Beautiful Trophies for all Divisions
>
>Spectator's Fee (All Day):
>Adult: $5
>Children under 12: $3
>
>Special Events During Championsip
>To be Anounced
>
>Special Guests Attending:
>Salvatore Canzonieri, Frank Allan, Tony Wang
>Elliot Carter, Yang Fu-Chang, Victoria Ng Young, Pedro Cepero
>Joeseph Bonacci, Richard Fike Sr., Nick Gracenin, and many more
>
>IRC #Kungfu Channel Attendees include:
>Tamo, Drift, Gldnarm, Juan, Barkeep, Sakki, Mike04
>Chino, Honeylove, Cable, Tex, Wushu, Huntor, Abt
>Dorobo, and others...
>
>More than 6,000 spectators are anticipated!
>More than 5,000 schools & individuals from diversified styles and
>states are being invited to take part in this event!
>
>Sponsorships and Vendor's Booth information are available upon
>request
>
>For Registration Maretials, Advertising, Sponsorship, Booths and
>Other Information Contact:
>
>In US:
>Han Wei
>3216 Payne Avenue - Cleveland - Ohio 44114 - 216/579-9707
>
>Elliot Carter
>1617 Church Road - Glenside - PA 19038 - 215-884-9597
>
>Juan Arroyo
>340 New Lots Avenue - Brooklyn - NY 11207 - 718-257-5832
>
>In Canada:
>Tony Wang
>118 Micmac Cresent - Willowdale - Ontario M2H 2K2 - 416-498-6539

Hi everyone, here is my first email to this list (since I haven't received any interesting topics from the lists yet, I'll introduce myself)

Name: Alex Young (or Yeung if you're a honky)
Age: 19
Club: Chinese Youth Society Of Melbourne (located in melb, victoria, Australia)
Style: Southern Style (Nam Pai Kung Fu)
Experience: I've only been doing Lion Dancing for just over a year, but due to my (and my partner's) highly intensive training ;) We quickly reached a level where we could perform the majority of tricks and stuff that all the senior members do.. still have soo much more learn though..

Let me tell you a bit about my club, the CYSM is mainly a youth group which does a lot more besides Lion dancing and kung fu, we also have a dragon boat team, soccer team, organise events such as singing contests, sports contests, have a newspaper, and do social stuff.. We are the largest lion dance club are here in Australia, and have about 9 lions..

Anyone know any cool tricks/combinations? Currently myself and my partner are working on several tricks involving cartwheels and various 1 foot balancing things...

Anyway, I'll be eagerly awaiting some interesting discussion in my mail box..

Alex..

PS, Don't you just hate it when you say to ppl "Lion Dancing" and they go.. "What??? Line Dancing??" ;)..