Total Messages: 15
Total Messages: 15
Hello, Greg!
The Hong Kong heads do seem to be the most durable. We purchased ours from Low On Kee, who has now retired. They were the most beautiful Fut Shan-style heads I have ever seen. The last set was ordered in 1986, so it's been a while since we have done business with him. I'll miss him and his son. What artistry!
The heads from Singapore were from
Lee Kun Store
3, Ann Siang Hill
Singapore 0106
Tel: 222-9295
So, it looks like the same guy you tried to do business with. I purchased the heads from him back in 1989-1990. At that time, I met him by going with one of my buddies from Singapore to look around Chinatown for a Lion Head maker. We asked a couple of people in Chinatown whether they knew anyone who made them, and we were directed to the Lee Kun Store. There was an elderly man outside the small shop, painting eyeballs for Lions. We got along pretty well, and I ended up ordering several Lions from him. I may have had a different experience than you, since my friends in Singapore arranged all the shipping details. All the Lee Kun Store needed to do was to make the heads and we arranged for pickup.
Before you call, it's my understanding that this guy is now out of business, as my friend checked recently, and found that the shop was no longer there.
We also did some business with
Alice Soong
Tong Kong Laundry
Blk 333, Kreta Ayer Road
#01-30, Singapore 0208
Tel/Fax: 223-6824
(I owe a really big debt of gratitude to my buddy in Singapore, who spent a lot of time looking for the shop, negotiating prices, and just overall trouble. I would not have been able to pull it off without him.)
Overall, Alice's heads are OK. Not as well made as the Lee Kun Store, and she cut corners on details and painting in comparison, not to mention some poor choices in decorative material. If you decide to work with her, I would mention that you heard from me about her, and are willing to do business, but that I was disappointed with the quality of the silver cloth she used for the pants and body of the Lion. I would recommend that you have a contact in Singapore who can help you look after the details as the Lions are created. In our case, the material is really thin, and although attractive, it is too frail for use in Lion Dance. It needed backing material. If you want details, feel free to call me. I don't think that they purposely tried to make the Lions flimsy, but a check on the strength of materials before production would be wise, given my 20/20 hindsight. Otherwise, the Lions are striking and we like them a lot, and I think that the poor material choice may be a one-time problem, caused by my asking for an unusual color.
Does anyone know of a good producer in Malaysia?
The heads are well made, and fairly attractive, but for sheer artistry, Low On Kee was it. Have you found any good contacts in HK, or Malaysia? I'm probably going to try Malaysia next, as the art of Lion Head construction seems to be alive and well in places like Kuala Lumpur. I may try Alice again, but with more detailed instructions for her.
Talk to you later.
Robert
Hi Rob,
It's good to have you aboard. I'm Greg with the Marin Chinese Cultural Group in California. I've been lion dancing for about 17 years and our group has about 25 members. We have a lot of young kids, so sometimes it's hard to get everyone together for a performance due to competing sports (soccer, track, etc). We perform the southern style of lion dancing all over the San Francisco Bay Area. Yes, I agree, lion dancing is a lot of fun. Our heads are mainly from Hong Kong, but we practice with some heads from PRC. The Hong Kong heads are much more durable, don't you think?
I was just wondering who do you get your heads from in Singapore? I was there in 1994 and we went to see this place on Ann Siang Road. This old man was sitting in front of the store and at first gave us his business card and let us go in to see his lions (Hok Shan style). But then for some reason (I think it was due to the fact that we told him he might have to do some shipping for us), he got upset, grabbed his card from us, and told us that he wasn't interested in doing business with us. We really didn't get a chance to inspect his heads, but they looked pretty good. Is this where you get your Singapore heads from? I think the man said he was going to be moving soon (this was in 1994), so he might not be on Ann Siang Road anymore.
Anyway, we might be going to Singapore again this year, so I was just wondering whether you know of any other places to get heads there (and in the Republic of China). Any information would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you,
Greg
>Re: Good Luck or Extortion?
Stephen Chew wrote:
> > ' == edge (high sound)
> > 0 == center of drum with dampening (hand/fingers used to make a lower sound)
> > 8 == center of drum with one stick, the other on top of the first ==> low +
> I hope you don't mind all the questions, I am really trying to learn more
I've never read any book about liondancing, so I had to invent a notation that
could make clear what I meant.
Sofar, I think it serves it's purpose.. :-)
> >
> > 7-star:
> 7-star starts with the backward movements.
That's about the same.
> >
>
Well, now it got even longer,...
greets,
Chris, thanks for posting that funny story. Reading it in pidgin made it
especially entertaining and colorful. A lot more human than the other lion
dance (origins of) stories I've read lately. Thanks for sharing that with
us. Any luck finding your red/black lion head pompons yet?
Corey
>Thanks for sharing that with
Glad you enjoyed the story - no luck finding the pompons yet - I remember seeing a set in a SF
Chinatown shop (maybe the one you told me - I don't remember the name) It had an entrance
on Grant ave. and then a lower level with some lion dance equipment and some gung-fu
weapons. They were $15 each, but they were orange, purple & white. Maybe ai should've
asked the manager if they could order the ones I wanted. The reason I'm looking is because I'm
refurbishing an old head of ours and the nose pompons fell off & were lost somewhere. As a
quick fix they were replaced with an extra set of rainbow ones we had lying around. Overall the
head is in pretty good shape, but it has come off the rim in certain places and no matter what I
try to do to it, it always seems to come loose in those places. Is there any hope for it, or should I
just junk it?
Hi Everyone,
I've been wondering what do you all do with respect to
the Mouth?
1) Where do you hold the Lion?
-Two hands on the bars
2) In a horse stance what does the mouth do?
We close the mouth when looking down and partially open
the mouth when looking Mid to High.
We never let the mouth flap on it's own. This makes for a
"retarded" looking lion. I do this by holding the bar
with my left hand (I'm left handed) and the mouth with my
right hand. (thumb and index around the bar of the mouth
for support and other three fingers under the mouth to close and
open.
My problem with this grip, is I can't thrust the head forward and low.
(like in 7 star) I think I'm just weak. Our instructor has me training
with iron rings to build up strength. I cheat and hold onto both cross
bars for this one move but then the mouth flaps loosely.
What are your thoughts?
Stephen
PS. This is a start of a series of questions. High dance, eyes, ears, animation
etc. so keep that in mind...
Hi Chris. Yes, you went to the same place I was talking about when you went
downstairs to Cheong Kee Jan. They still don't have any red/black pompons,
but they have a bunch of different colored rainbow types.
When the top part of the lion starts coming off from the base rim, it's
best to fix the problem spot right away, because all the remaining joints
(junctions between vertical bamboo strips and the bamboo rim) will have to
take up the slack as far as holding together the lion is concerned. That's
when the overstressed joints ALL start giving out. There is hope for it, so
don't junk what could be a salvageable head.
The most important thing that needs to be done is to reattach the vertical
bamboo strip to the horizontal bamboo rim in as permanent a way as
possible. If the vertical bamboo strip isn't frayed, try drilling two small
holes through it, then put it where it belongs, and drill two holes in the
horizontal bamboo rim (using the first two holes as guides. Then you can
run a thin gauge wire through the matching holes on both horizontal and
vertical pieces. Then lash the pieces together with the wire. If the
condition of the vertical or horizontal bamboo doesn't allow for drilling,
you may try augmenting them first. Or you may think of a different way to
reattach horizontal and vertical pieces of bamboo. In any case, the newly
reattached joints should also be further strengthened with additional
lashing around the horizontal and vertical parts of the joint. String
soaked in white glue will do the trick. That'll be stronger than long
strips of paper soaked in liquid starch. Just make sure the joints are user
friendly after the job so that loose wire or bamboo strips don't stick out
and pose a cutting hazard to the head player's skin.
Stephen and All,
In regards to the mouth, I generally follow the rule that when the head is
on your shoulders and you're in a horse stance, the mouth is open. Usually
my left hand is on the front rim of the head moving the mouth/head and my
right hand is on the string to make the eyes blink (I'm right-handed).
When I hold the head up to do the seven stars or any other kind of jumping
movement, then my left hand closes the mouth and lifts up the front part of
the head while my right hand lifts up the right bar inside the head. When
thrusting the head forward or low, I think I can get better leverage on the
head by using one hand to close the mouth (instead of both hands on the
bars). Of course, using one hand to close the mouth when you hold the head
up causes a lot of strain to be placed on the bottom corner of the mouth.
Our group reinforces this area with fiberglass.
So the placement of my hands depends on the movement I'm doing. I know
other people have learned other ways of holding the head. Again, each
person has his/her own style. I know other people who are right-handed, but
they place their hands in the exact opposite position from my hand
placement.
Any other thoughts?
Greg
There's no one correct way to hold a lion. But, there are lots of
comfortable ways, and the more experienced people you ask, the more
different answers you'll get. Then you just figure out which one is most
comfortable for you. Grips change at different times during a routine and
when the performer needs to do different things.
I try not to teach students to ALWAYS have the mouth in ONE certain
position for most routines or stances. It'd make the dance too mechanical
and confuse the student with too many details to remember. Of course, there
are certain guidelines (which sometimes also have exceptions) to follow,
like: don't let the mouth hang open freely, keep the mouth closed when
holding the head up high, etc.
Lion dance is a LIVING art that breathes and changes with each performance;
every performer adds his/her own interpretation of what the lion is
supposed to feel like at any given moment in a routine. And that's what
students should concentrate on-what particular emotion is the lion supposed
to be feeling and what are effective ways of conveying that particular
feeling with the mouth, eyes, ears, footwork, position of the head, speed,
power, and of course, music.
Not exactly a piece of cake to coordinate all that, but that's why the art
is so engrossing when it's done well. And that's why people want to see you
perform. They want to see YOU perform. Not just everybody trying to do the
same exact routine the same exact way every time.
Corey -
Very well put.
-Robert
Stephen -
You are correct that the mouth, as a rule, should never be left 'flapping'.
It is a sign of poor control of the head, and is most unrealistic. The
method you described for holding the mouth and head "thumb and index around
the bar of the mouth for support and other three fingers under the mouth to
close and open." is acceptable. Experimentation in grasping the head and
mouth is acceptable.
I agree that if you have difficulty holding this position when down low, it
may be a sign of insufficient strength in your hands and fingers. Your SiFu
is on the right track in having you strength-train. I also recommend use
isokinetic exercises such as push ups, sit ups, and using hand exercise
techniques. For best strength in arms, shoulders and fingers, which is
critical for Lion Dance, you can also use dumbells, one-arm and two-arm rows,
lateral and front raises, hammer and bicep curls, and military press, not to
mention inclined press. If you can get your hands on an old 'practice' head,
this is also advisable.
When working out, practice lying-leg stances, with arms in 'Lion Head'
position to accustom your body to this posture.
Use of mirrors and/or camcorders is also recommend to review
1) How the experts look
Good luck.
Robert
Stephen, Greg, et. al.
I agree with Greg, but would point out that the mouth is never 'dangling',
but when open is being held or controlled by the dancer at all times.
-Robert
hi all!
On Wed, 24 Apr 1996, Stephen Chew wrote:
Really depends on the move, but usually I hold it like Greg described.
On thrusts we never hold the head straight, but always as if the lion
were looking down at an angle with the mouth closed.
When in horse stance I like to make the mouth open and close this gives
the lion the appearance of emotion, rather than just being stationary.
For more control, some members of our group I've seen hold onto the rim
instead of the bar with one hand and control the mouth with the other.
I personally don't think this looks good, but it does help give better
control, especially on thrusts. Unless this is a big no-no and our
group is just ignorant, you may want to give this a try.
Incidently, how do you hold the head during the "breaks" in the music? I
like to end up in a low horse with the head thrust high and forward.
i've seen some people end with the head pulled all the way down, looking
at the floor.
>Incidently, how do you hold the head during the "breaks" in the music? I
I've never seen this for a break. Low horse, head up looking straight ahaed
is usually a transition move for us. We don't hold that position. Maybe
I'm not visualizing your description properly.
In our drumming, the break comes after 7 star or modified 3 star (we made
up that name) These are the "freeze" poses or Lion Vogue-ing :-)
We have two basic positions and then variations.
The freeze doesn't look forward but looks to the side. (Ie head turned)
We are either crane stance (one leg) head held high looking down. (preferably
at another lion.) Or we are in a back bow stance (very low) facing towards
the outstreched leg and looking up with the mouth opened.
Some fine points, try to look at the other lion. We usually coordinate that
one head will go up and look down while the other goes down and looks up.
The tail should be in a low back bow stance with the outstretched leg
in the direction that the Lion is looking. Makes for this long C look.
Also, there is a snap of the head. (if looking right, snap to the left
and then end up on the right)
Our music is (usually) synced to the dance. When ever we are about to a
stunt, (Stacking, eating, jumping, etc) a 7 star or some variation (ie.
break at the end) is played and the stunt will conclude at the break.
Thus, many freeze positions occur.
>
> FROM: PUEO@LAVA.NET (NEAL ORIBIO)
> DATE: 1996/02/24
> MessageID: 4gml88$77a@nuhou.aloha.net#1/2
>organization: Pidgin Ink
>newsgroups: soc.culture.hawaii
>
>>>In article <4g451q$lvr@nuhou.aloha.net>, nyuen@lava.net (Nathan Yuen) wrote:
>>>>When shop owners hang those red envelopes with cash outside their
>>>>shops for retrieval by the kung-fu clubs performing the lion dance,
>>>>is this for good luck or is this a subtle form of extortion?
>>>Hoy, Nathan!
>>How come nobody wen ansah dis one yet?
>
>Kay-den...
>
>Beefo time, eh... beefo dey wen lay pavement down on Keeaumoku
>Street... had one Chinese noodle shop... dey wen sell anykind noodle
>stuffs... dimsum too. Nevah had too much business, but.
>
>Mo'up insai da mountain sai... up Makiki sai... beefo had all da
>apartments l'dat... had one Lion. Da Lion... steh come all
>mad-kind... everyday, he only eat mongoose, cockroach, gecko...
>sometimes cat... and sometimes dog. Junk, but. Da Lion like fo' eat
>som-tin else.
>
>One day, den... da Lion wen go cruise around... go look fo' som-tin
>else fo' eat. Da Lion wen go Keeaumoku sai... had plenny peoples all
>ovah da place... da Lion steh smart, you know... so he no go by all da
>peoples. He notice one shop, but... nevah had nobody... was da
>Chinese noodle shop. So he wen go ovah jya.
>
>"Grrrrrrrrrrowl"... da Lion wen yell... aftah he wen bang da door open
>wit his head. "I like good kau-kau!"
>
>Da place was empty, but... 'sept fo' Meestah Loo... da buggah who make
>da noodle. Meestah Loo came scared... only ting he can grab is da
>noodle paste... so he wen grab'em... enden wen fly'em at da Lion.
>
>Da Lion wen catch'em insai his mout'... enden wen spit'em out, but.
>
>"Ho da junk!"... da Lion wen yell... "No mo' taste dis-kind!"
>
>Enden da Lion go broke some chairs... go broke some tables... wen go
>make da place all messy-kind... plenny noise he make too. Enden he go
>bite da cash register... shake'em aroun' insai da air... enden fly'em
>against da wall.
>
>Poor Meestah Loo... all scared-kind... donno what he can do... get one
>crazy Lion insai da shop... steh broke every-ting.
>
>Last chance-kind... Meestah Loo wen go grab some two-day old Gau...
>nobody wen buy'em, azz why... enden he go fly'em at da Lion.
>
>Same-same j'like beefo... da Lion go catch'em insai his mout'... dis
>time, but... da Lion nevah go spit'em out. Da Lion go sit down ontop
>da floor... and chew'em... sweet azz why... taste good.
>
>Poor Meestah Loo... still scared-kind, but... he go grab one mo'
>Gau... enden fly'em at da Lion.
>
>Da Lion... he no pay-attention, but... he steh still chewing da first
>Gau.
>
>PONK!
>
>Da Gau wen bounce off da Lion's head.
>
>Poor Meestah Loo... he like da Lion beat-it already. So he go grab
>one mo' Gau... fly'em at da Lion one mo' time.
>
>PONK!
>
>One mo' Gau wen bounce off da Lion's head... da buggah still steh
>chewing da first Gau, azz why.
>
>"Kay nuff, already"... da Lion wen go tell Meestah Loo... "Sowa, you
>know"... enden da Lion wen go stand-up... pick-up da ahddah two Gau...
>an' go leave da shop.
>
>Had plenny peoples outside da shop dis time... dey like fo' spah'k all
>da noise, l'dat. Dey wen get outta da way, but... wen da Lion wen go
>make-it back Makiki sai.
>
>Poor Meestah Loo... da noodle shop steh all broken already. Fricken
>Lion!
>
>Good ting had plenny peoples, but... dey wen go help Meestah Loo clean
>up da noodle shop.
>
>Cuppo days aftah dat... plenny people steh go da noodle shop fo' buy
>Gau. Dey like help Meestah Loo, azz why. Enden da noodle shop come
>get good business.
>
>Come New Years time... Meestah Loo wen go aks da local Kung-Fu Club...
>fo' go make Lion dance insai da noodle shop... fo' Good Luck, azz why.
>J'like wen da Lion wen go mess-up da shop... jus' fo' eat Gau... enden
>everybody come da noodle shop fo' eat. Azz Good Luck, or what?
>
>Enden fo' give mahalo to da local Kung-Fu Club... Meestah Loo go hang
>some Lai-See by da door... fo' da Kung-Fu Lion.
>
>So jya, Nathan... azz how da Lion Dance tradition wen start.
>
>I donno nah-tin about dis "extortion" stuffs... I tink mebbe you steh
>watch too much Kung-Fu movies lately.
Subject: Re: drum beats
To: Stephen Chew
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 96 13:38:29 METDST
Cc: liondance@mail.sdsu.edu
> Is this the outside edge of the drum? Ie a wood to wood sound?
That is indeed what I meant.
> Is this an actual strike with the stick while a hand is holding the drum
> or is this hitting the drum with your hand/finger to accent a pause?
> We do both.
I meant hitting the drum and immediately after that touching it with your other
hand to change the sound. You could use this to accentuate a pause, but not
neccesarily.
> > high sound together.
> Do this mean having a stick sitting on the drum and then hitting the stick?
Yes, it does.
> beats and I couldn't decipher William Hu's book. As long as I understand
> the notations, I likethis system.
> > Basic rythm (3-star?):
> > 0 ' o0 ' (repeated over and over)
>
> Our basic rythm (we call Low Dance ) is:
>
> 'oo 'oo 'oooooo 'oo 'oo 'ooooooo 'o* (repeat)
> (* is a pause)
> We vary the number of ' and o and also the spacing(?).
> By spacing it's like chick-bum-bum chick-bum-bum chick-bum-bum-da-da-da-bum-bum.
> (hard to explain. Wish I had a musical background)
My teacher actually did it like that before, but since about a year or two,
he's changed it. It's more a variation than a real change, I think.
> > o ooo o 0 o ooo o 0 o ooo o 0 oo'ooo'ooo' o ooo o o o o o 8
> > left mb right,mb left, mb head forward+side to side, jump back
> > (mb=mabo, looking forward)
> > Variation on first part:
> > o ooo o 0 ' o ooo o 0 ' o ooo o 0 '
> > And on the second part:
> > oo ooo ooo o ooo o o o o o 8
>
> I'm sorry but I could not relate this to something I know (beat-wise)
> The moves is what we call 3-star(maybe), 7-star.
>
> 3-star is lion head turn left, arm's straight overhead, in a twist stance.
> (right leg behind left leg, left foot pointing tothe left)
> the Beat is the same as your variation: o ooo o 0 '
> Same thing to the right, then to the center. (hence the 3-stars)
That's what I meant!, except we go left, right, left.
Inbetween we do a forward looking ma-bo stance.
>
> oo* oo* oo-ooo* ooo* o-ooo-o-oo o-ooo-o-o-oo-o**
> lt- rt- lt- rt- lt- forward bow Jump back and
> stance with freeze in crane or low
> head shakes back stance on last beat.
> > High drum:
> > ' ''' o o o o o o o o o o o o ooo o o ooo o o ooo o o o o ooo o o oo0
> > ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
> > Hits that are relatively stressed are marked with ^.
> we call this high dance and it is similar.
I guess that my teacher maybe also calls it high dance, but he may just have
incorrectly translated the words into Dutch, so since then we call it high
drum.. :-)
> Wow this got really long and probably didn't make sense but I hope
> it carries on this discussion.
Rob Teng
To: liondance@mail.sdsu.edu
From: Corey Chan
Subject: That funny story
To: liondance
From: clow@mail.sdsu.edu (Chris)
Subject: Pompons
>us. Any luck finding your red/black lion head pompons yet?
From: Stephen Chew
To: liondance@mail.sdsu.edu
Subject: Open Mouth
-Two hands on the Mouth
-One on each
-Depends on move, etc.
To: liondance@mail.sdsu.edu
From: Corey Chan
Subject: Broken rim on lion
To: liondance
Subject: RE: Open Mouth
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 96 15:58:00 PDT
To: liondance@mail.sdsu.edu
From: Corey Chan
Subject: Mouth
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 01:19:03 -0400
To: liondance@mail.sdsu.edu
Subject: Re: Mouth
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 01:18:55 -0400
To: liondance@mail.sdsu.edu
Subject: Re: Open Mouth
2) How you look in comparison
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 01:18:58 -0400
To: liondance@mail.sdsu.edu
Subject: Re: RE: Open Mouth
From: Christopher milton Low
To: liondance@mail.sdsu.edu
Subject: Re: Open Mouth
> 1) Where do you hold the Lion?
From: Stephen Chew
To: liondance@mail.sdsu.edu
Subject: Positions for the break
>like to end up in a low horse with the head thrust high and forward.
>i've seen some people end with the head pulled all the way down, looking
>at the floor.