Hi Everyone,

It's been real quiet on this list.
I'm also testing out the new email address...

One question, in my travels, I heard that the Hok Shan type head (rounded mouth) was used for a slower/smoother lion dance while the Fat Shan style head was for a more quicker and energenic dance.

The Hawaiian web page refers to the Hok Shan head as a Singapore head but while I was there, the Fat Shan style was more prevalent.

Anyone share any insight on this? I haven't check Dr. Hu's book yet.

Stephen.

Dear Stephen -

Thanks for the interesting email. It's nice to get 'non-business' email, and especially when someone takes the trouble to detail their trips w.r.t. Lion Dance! Let me know if I can help with the tapes.

>I also made contact to purchase lions. They threw out a number,
>1800 Malaysian Ringet which is roughly $750.00 USD. This was for
>a head, tail, and pants in gold or silver. Some interesting points
>about these lions. The heads are either Fat shan or Hok Shan style.
>The frames are made of bamboo and aluminum/PVC which make them
>very strong but super light. The fur is typical of Malaysian lions
>which are very furry not strands like the Hong Kong style. The
>skin is a reflective tape material not paint. Though the design is
>painted on top of it. The skin is durable but light and made of
>a different reflective and almost glittering material. Again the
>fur is very furry.

Interesting. We have both Hok Shan and Fut San heads. It's largely a matter of personal preference, although the Hok Shan heads tend to run quite a bit smaller. Did you want to see if the group would be willing to do a group order? That would cut the pricing quite a bit, since I agree that shipping is really expensive. By the way, we were able to avoid the customs tax (on the cloth tail and pants - which is protected by clothing taxes!) by convincing the customs guys that this was "Festive Items for Parades and Cultural Shows".

Do you have any pictures? Can you post on the net?

-Robert

-------->>>>>>> Yeah....group order for the equipments sound interesting. But who would be willing to take the responsibilities?... Please consider about this if anyone is willing to get serious. Thanks...

Well, a group sales does sound interesting. I'm willing to co-ordinate. I'm not sure what James means by responsibilities.

I guess he means what happens if something goes wrong. My response will be this is a buyer beware. At this time, I am not planning to go into business selling lions. So this would be a group getting together to make an overseas purchase. I'm willing to do the leg work since I've done alot of it already but everyone involved would have to trust me and caveat emptor.

At this time, we are not prepared to purchase anything. If a sizable group wanted to work together, we could be convinced to quicken our schedule. Realisticly speaking, even if we started today, it would be tough to get them by Chinese New Year. That's why I'm in a wait mode.

There's also the logistics of once they arrive in SF, how do we get them to other parts of the US? Then we need to figure out the exact color and size etc.

I'm open to discussion.

Stephen.

Well, I finally got the tapes converted from PAL to NTSC. These are great tapes. One is a 1995 competition in Malaysia and the other is a 1995 competition in Hong Kong (2 tape set).

Pretty amazing footage. These are professionally done tapes with different angles, etc. The most astonishing thing on the Malaysian tape was one walked between two walls.

Imagine two parallel walls about two shoulder lengths apart. Both the head and the tail hold themselves up by pressing against each wall. Similar principle to the old Batman series where Batman and Robin are Back to back and scale up a chimmney exceot that the head and tail do it themselves in a semi-split. No foot holds on the wall. Then, the head stacks on the Tail while suspended against the wall!

I haven't gone through the Hong Kong tape yet but the begining had this nice montage played to General's Mandate (the Wong Fei Hong song). Very cool footage there.

I noticed that the teams liked to stack with the head on one leg and using the other leg scratching the nose like a cat would do. Very cool looking.

Well that's it for now. 6 hours of lion dance is a lot of tapes. I don't know if these are the same tape that the person from Austrailia mentioned on this list. I didn't have a chance to match the names and I can't remember them right now. Believe it or not, I bought these at a video rental store in Johore Bahru.

Stephen.

Hello,

I would like to introduce myself to the people on this list. My name is Pontus and I live in Sweden. Apart from Lion Dance I practice a Kung Fu style from Fujian province, known as Eng Tsun Bei Ho Tiger-Crane Combination. My teacher, Dennis Ngo, is Singaporean but he lives in U.K. I have learnt the Hok San style of Lion Dance; I started learning 1991, but I haven't practiced regularly all the time. I am not a very experienced Lion Dance practitioner but I am very interested in the art and eager to learn more about Lion Dance in general.

I also would like to ask the group about the Big-Headed Buddha and his origin. Some people claim that he is a Renegade Shaolin monk who, whenever he meets a lion, likes to tease and torment it. Others say that he is the keeper of the lion who takes care of it and helps it. What are your different experiences on this?

And why is it that he sometimes is called Big-Headed Buddha and other times Little or Laughing Buddha? Looking forward to seeing your comments !

Yours
/Pontus

HI, Steven

> Well, I finally got the tapes converted from PAL to NTSC. These are
> great tapes. One is a 1995 competition in Malaysia and the other is a
> 1995 competition in Hong Kong (2 tape set).
> Pretty amazing footage. These are professionally done tapes with
> different angles, etc. The most astonishing thing on the Malaysian
> tape was one walked between two walls.
> Imagine two parallel walls about two shoulder lengths apart.
> Both the head and the tail hold themselves up by pressing
> against each wall. Similar principle to the old Batman series where
> Batman and Robin are Back to back and scale up a chimmney exceot that
> the head and tail do it themselves in a semi-split. No foot holds
> on the wall. Then, the head stacks on the Tail while suspended against
> the wall!

Was the lion head dancer much smaller than the tail? I have seen a similar thing and the head dancer had to really strecth his legs to hold on to the wall!

> Well that's it for now. 6 hours of lion dance is a lot of tapes.
> I don't know if these are the same tape that the person from
> Austrailia mentioned on this list. I didn't have a chance to
> match the names and I can't remember them right now. Believe it
> or not, I bought these at a video rental store in Johore Bahru.

I think I am the guy you mentioned though I am actually in New Zealand. Is the Malaysian tape around 300 minutes long? If it is, it should be the 1995 Malaysian National Championship, which I reckon has the highest standard of lion dance competition I have ever seen. If it is around 190 minutes long, it might be the invitational Lion dance competition held in Seremban, which had quite a few "falls". I don't have the Hong Kong one.

By the way, were there any lion dance tapes for sale in Hong Kong?

George

Pontus Fredriksson wrote:
> Hello,
> I would like to introduce myself to the people on this list. My name is
> Pontus and I live in Sweden. Apart from Lion Dance I practice a Kung Fu
> style from Fujian province, known as Eng Tsun Bei Ho Tiger-Crane
> Combination. My teacher, Dennis Ngo, is Singaporean but he lives in U.K. I
> have learnt the Hok San style of Lion Dance; I started learning 1991, but I
> haven't practiced regularly all the time. I am not a very experienced Lion
> Dance practitioner but I am very interested in the art and eager to learn
> more about Lion Dance in general.
> I also would like to ask the group about the Big-Headed Buddha and his
> origin. Some people claim that he is a Renegade Shaolin monk who, whenever
> he meets a lion, likes to tease and torment it. Others say that he is the
> keeper of the lion who takes care of it and helps it. What are your
> different experiences on this?

Finally, some one that does Hock-San lion!

I have actually heard much more of the term "big headed buddha" than the "laughing face buddha". Well, the story that I heard concerning him is that he was once disgraced monk and is hoping to redeem himself. The way that he tries to do it was to try to "tame" or "befriend" a fierce beast (the lion)by just using "mercy".

Hope it was interesting. Welcome to the group, and happy lion dancing!

George
Christchurch,
New Zealand

Greetings all;

My name is Peter Nosler. I have been involved in the Southern Sil Lum style of Fut Gar for a brief eight years. I am humble about my lion dancing skill for good reason. I enjoy the opportunity to learn from more experienced lion dancers on this list, and hope to find the opportunity to offer my own knowledge when appropriate.

I am not really aware of what is currently being discussed as I just jumped on board, but I thought I'd fire up discussion with a question that I had (sorry if this is old, already covered material for you guys). When a business owner commissions a lion dance troupe to dance for him he often puts obstacles in the way of the lion dance team to test their skill and knowledge of their art. I am aware of what to do in several of these traditional tests, but I have heard contradictory information from some lion dancers concerning one in particular. Perhaps you all may know. If the business owner grinds up cabbage/lettuce (greenery) before the lion dance and sprinkles the bits on the ground in the shape of a Chinese character, is the lion supposed to a:eat the greenery in the appropriate stroke order of the character, or b:eat the greenery in the exact opposite stroke order of the character, or c:something else entirely?

Thank you to the founders of this mailing list and thank you to anyone who tries to tackle this question.

Sincerely,
Peter Nosler

Here's a story of the monk that some elders might tell. The Monk lived in exhile in the mountains; propbably because his head was so big that he didn't fit in with the others. Anyway, when none of the people in the kingdom could tame the lions which came down from the mountains, this monk made his presence. He was able to tame the lion and make it perform good deeds. He also carries a fan which some believed to have a "hot tip" which he used to keep the lions in order.

Dr. Hu was at one time the premier "Funny Man" (as its called in Hawaii). He showed us some of the motions that the actor must perform. The movements are very much like imitating a stick puppet and he told us that the funny man also stood in front of the lion in the heavy smoke and fanned air in through the mouth of the lion to help the head player breath.

Here in Hawaii, there are a lot of traditional puzzles and also new puzzles which store owners create. We make it a point to never execute a puzzle without finding out what the store owner's intentions are. If we don't know the puzzle we ask the owner. He should not be reluctant to tell because a successful execution of the puzzle will bring ggod luck to the store. Different lion dance groups as well as business owners come from different Chinese upbringings. A lot of people say "this is how it is done in our village" and there are many villages in China. Dr. Hu once told us a joke of how one village in China can be a couple of farm houses grouped together, and it was so small that some Chinese would call it literally "one kick of cow shit". (It was funny when he said it.) Anyway, my point is that a store owner doesn't want to humiliate you in front of his store. Therefore, we in Hawaii ask before we do it wrong.

By the way, we did have a puzzle with characters using oranges and lucky candy. We followed the traditional stroke order. It was quite difficult with the oranges because we had to step over the lower strokes in the character to get to the first strokes in the character. Of course with a clumsy tail player, the oranges had a tendency to roll away.

There are certain symbols that a lion dance group should be aware of as well. For example, one year, a store put out a puzzle using the double swords. It was intended that the lion pick up the swords and then a member of the lion dance group would perform a "set" or "form" with these swords. However, the storeowner was not aware of the symbolism but he thought it was pretty to place the swords down in an "X" formation. The lion dance group refused to perform the puzzle that way because some of the elders recognized it as a symbol of death. It is a barrier that would kill the lion. Therefore, the puzzle was corrected be placing the swords down in a parallel or "V" formation.

Hope this was educational...

Sherman

By the way folks in California,

If you like those Malaysian Heads, I believe Yau Gung Moon and White Crane has a few. I hear that White Crane gets dozens of new heads every year; some from HK, some from China, and some from Malaysia. Is there anybody on this list that has any connection to White Crane in San Fran?

On another note, in reply to a previous question, the Hok San head, we often refer to as the Singapore Head. If I'm not mistaken, this shape of lion head was first made in Singapore factories. In fact, if you walk into one of the lion head factories in Singapore, all their heads are that shape. If you see a Fat San lion in Singapore, it was probably made in China. We have one Hok San head and it has a very different feel from the Fat san lion. The shape is very long and if you're not used to playing it, it can be very sore on the top of your head. The heads tend to be easier to move because of the angle of the handle bars. However, if you ever played a lion from the Lin Fat Cheong (spelling?) factory in Hong Kong, their handles are angled similar to the Hok San handles and it's really easy to shake that head around.

Just Babbling on.....

Sherman

Sherman wrote:
> anybody on this list that has any connection to White Crane in San Fran?

I do not, but the people I spoke to in Malaysia are the ones that supply White Crane in SF. I had heard from others that White Crane doesn't sell their lions to outsiders. I'm not sure about this since I know they have small store for weapons in SF. Anyone know for sure?

> On another note, in reply to a previous question, the Hok San head, we
> often refer to as the Singapore Head. If I'm not mistaken, this shape
> of lion head was first made in Singapore factories.

I don't doubt that many Singapore teams use the Hok San head but wouldn't it be logical that it was invented in "Hok San?" Is there such a place? The place in Malaysia makes both kinds of heads. The Sifu I spoke to said they have associated different movements.

> If you see a Fat San lion in Singapore, it was probably
> made in China.

I must admit I don't distinguish from Malaysia and Singapore. I was in Johore Bahru which is just across the water from Singapore. >From someone else, I was told the best lion dancing and Kung Fu is in Kuala Lumpar and Johore Bahru. All the lions are locally made.

> However, if you ever played a lion from the Lin Fat Cheong
> (spelling?) factory in Hong Kong, their handles are angled similar to
> the Hok San handles and it's really easy to shake that head around.
>

I'm pretty sure this is the place I visited in Hong Kong. I forget the spelling too but it was close to Leung Fat Cheong. Sifu Chan Tat Fu is a reknowned master of lion heads in Hong Kong. Unfortunately, he only display heads from china now. His stuff has to be customed ordered.

Another point is that the heads from Malaysia had some Aluminum framing. I only played with Fat Shan style but it was lightest yet solid head I've ever played.

> Just Babbling on.....
> Sherman

Babbling with you. Thakns for all the interesting facts.

Stephen.

Hi Folks,

I'm not so sure that the White Crane Kung Fu Supplies store in SF is associated with the White Crane Kung Fu Studio. I think the name is coincidentally the same.

For those of you who are not familiar with the Malaysian heads, the length of the Malaysian tails is much shorter than the length of the tails of the old, traditional-style heads from China. I believe the old-style heads had tails of 10-12 feet. The Malaysian heads have tails that run about 5-6 feet long because the person under the tail plays such an integral part in a lot of the competition lion dancing these days and thus is almost always holding on to the waist of the head player. Most of the Malaysian heads also have tails at the very end of the body that the tail player can wiggle. Anyway, if your group has used only heads with long tails, then the tail length is something your group may want to consider if you're looking into these Malaysian heads. Of course, you might be able to order long tails, but most of the Malaysian heads I've seen have had the short tails.

Also, the heads from Malaysia are definitely solid in a structural sense but I believe that the paper material that covers the frame is very thin. Holes can be punched through the heads very easily. We have some heads from Hong Kong and the papier mache material on these heads is much stronger that that of the Malaysian heads.

Greg

Stephen Chew wrote:
> Sherman wrote:
> > On another note, in reply to a previous question, the Hok San head, we
> > often refer to as the Singapore Head. If I'm not mistaken, this shape
> > of lion head was first made in Singapore factories.
> I don't doubt that many Singapore teams use the Hok San head but wouldn't
> it be logical that it was invented in "Hok San?" Is there such a place?

Yes, there is such a place called Hock San (in southern China), and the Hock San lion head was invented there. The reason that many such lion heads are used in Singapore may be due to the fact that the descendents of the master of these lion dance style migrated to Singapore.

According to master Siow, who is the 5th generation Hock San master, it was the 3rd generation master that invented the short tailed Hock San lions in Singapore, and this tail has merged with the Fat San lion in Singapore & Malaysia. I have heard that there are still people doing the Hock San lion in China, but with the original 12 foot tail. The story of how the the short tail came about was also quite interesting. It happen during a performance in Singapore celebrating the Queen's coronation where this 3rd generation master was performing. There were dragons and lions, and this master's lion was encircled by a dragon. Try as he might he couldn't escape. Back home and in frustration, he cut part of the lion's tail off. Later, he felt pity for the tail and repaired it, making it 9 feet long. He then realised that it was much beter to perform, and from then the tail has shorten again to the 7 feet which we find today. Thus, the style called "southern lion dancing the northern style" was born.

In inventing the Hock San lion, the master also created a drum style roughly translated to "18 drum beats from Hock San". Due to the relatively newness of this type of lion drum style (ie. only 5 generations), there is not much druming variations (unlike Fatt San), so there is a move to standardise the druming in competitions to this style inorder to facilitate judging. Our group is using this druming style but using Fat San heads. If I am not mistaken, the top 3 lion daNce team in the recent world lion dance championship all used the Hock San head.

Hope the above was interesting.

George,

Christchurch, NZ

GCHUCK.US.ORACLE.COM wrote:
> Also, the heads from Malaysia are definitely solid in a structural sense but I
> believe that the paper material that covers the frame is very thin. Holes can
> be punched through the heads very easily. We have some heads from Hong Kong
> and the papier mache material on these heads is much stronger that that of the
> Malaysian heads.

Interesting. While I don't know which lion head is stronger (we haven't tested our Malaysian head to destruction yet...), I find that the Chinese heads might be stronger because the inner lining of their lion heads are made from silk, wherelse the Malaysian ones (mead by Wan Seng Hang Trading) are made from some sort of carbon fibre matting. The reason being that silk is more tensile than carbon fibres. So the Malaysian one is lighter and harder but more prone to cracking.

George

Hi George,

Just wanted to say I enjoyed your post about the origin of the Hok San head and short tail length.

I also understand better what I saw in Malaysia. I knew the material was different than the ones from China/Hong Kong but I didn't realize it until later.

>If I am not mistaken, the top 3 lion daNce team in
>the recent world lion dance championship all used the Hock San head.

I don't know about this but in watching the Hong Kong tape, it's about even as far as the type each team uses. I think I saw more Fat San ones but I'm partial to those.

The JB White Crane school I visited (who has a champion lion team) used only the Fat San style heads.

Stephen.

Hi Pontus,

FYI, when you reply to this list, you need to do a reply all to get the list alias liondance@mail.sdsu.edu. Also note that address will change on January 1 to liondance@lists.sdsu.edu.

> Talking about these matters, does anyone know anything about Malaysian Lion
> Heads made of fiber glass; supposedly light to handle but still very strong
> and solid in their structure. It is just something a non-Lion Dancing
> Malaysian guy told me so I am not 100 % sure of the authenticy of the info.
> Anybody who has a clue?

Did you join before or after I posted my trip report? I talked a little about this. I have heard of fiberglass being used but I have always heard that fiberglass was actually heavier then bamboo. It's just more durable.

The heads I saw were made of bamboo and aluminum and as mentioned in a previous post, some lighter skin material.

The head I played with was by far the lightest head I've ever worked yet it still felt very sturdy. BTW, I come from a school that uses brass rings to train with the head so I'm used to heavy heads.

Stephen

Hi Greg,

Haven't heard from you in awhile. Happy Holidays.

> I'm not so sure that the White Crane Kung Fu Supplies store in SF is
> associated with the White Crane Kung Fu Studio. I think the name is
> coincidentally the same.

I have no idea, I have never been to the store.

> For those of you who are not familiar with the Malaysian heads, the length of
> the Malaysian tails is much shorter than the length of the tails of the old,
> traditional-style heads from China.

Very true. Since we are looking for a shorter tail lion, I forgot to mention this. I'm not sure if I can even order the longer tail. I believe that only the short tails come with pants.

FYI, Hong Kong tails are now the same. When I went to hong kong, he did not have any traditional length tails on display. Again, I did not check to see if I could get the longer ones but I'm sure you can since he gets stuff from China and they still make the long ones.

> Also, the heads from Malaysia are definitely solid in a structural sense but I
> believe that the paper material that covers the frame is very thin. Holes can
> be punched through the heads very easily. We have some heads from Hong Kong
> and the papier mache material on these heads is much stronger that that of the
> Malaysian heads.

The heads I say had a different material than paper. ARe yours like that? This had a mylar type material which is lighter then paper but I could tap the head with no more worry of punching a hole then I would with paper.

Stephen.

Hi Folks,

Just want to tell you that my e-mail account will be terminated tomorrow, but I can still be reached at

I will be going home to Malaysia on the 18th of Dec, and I plan to visit Master Siow and attend the Malaysian National Lion Dance competition on the way.

I also want to say that I had an enjoyable and informative time while being on the list. I hope that I will be able to get back on the list soon to share with you all. If any of you plan to have more info on the tapes, you can contact me at:

George Chan