Hi Everyone,

This is mainly for the folks in Northern Califronia but I welcome input from everyone.

My wife will be going to Malaysia in September. Since the Malaysian Ringet is low right now compared to the US Dollar, it might be a good time to get some things.

What is the going price for a Malaysian made head and tail? Clarion Music says $670 for Multi color and $865 for Gold. Is the Multicolor the traditional long tail and the Gold the newer short tail? When I was in Johor Bahru, I saw Silver and Gold Lions that were 1800 RM which is $650-$750 depending on exchange rate.

These lions were aluminum frame with PVC handles and some bamboo. The tails included the pants. The size did not matter. (1,2 or 3). They were made in Kuala Lumpar. I loved these lions. I don't know how I would ship them here. (Though we are allowed check in luggage)

Can you get lions of this quality at any price in the Bay Area? (US?) I believe that Leung's White Crane gets their lions from the same place. (The Sifu I spoke to said they ship to a white crane school in SF) Will they sell a lion to others? Does anyone know? Where do other folks get their lions in this area. I'm refereing to the newer style lion with the lighter head and shorter tail. We have many traditional size lions. Mainly curious.

Stephen.

On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, Choy Leow wrote:
> If you can clue me in as to where to price out for the following:
> Lion head and tail(preferably red, although yellow or black will be OK)
> the drum
> 2 sets of cymbals
> 1 gong

Hey, Choy!

One thing you might consider is a trip to HK. It might not be as outrageous as it first sounds. Heads are CHEAP there (China heads, anyway)! And if you get an off-peak season air ticket and get part of the trip underwritten by sponsorship (you could do some research or shopping for other Chinese cultural items), the total cost could be about the same as purchasing from domestic importers. For a regular, full-size China head and tail, HK$1,500 (~US$200). Same price for a drum. Didn't really look into cymbals/gongs. For a short-tail 'competition' head and tail, including two pairs of pants, HK$4,500 (~US$600), if I remember correctly. Then, you just take the head in the cardboard box it comes in, put it on board the plane as a luggage (FRAGILE, insure it!), and make sure a friend with a van or truck picks you up. Or, if you know somebody going to or coming from HK, and they really like you, you could ask them to help you do this and all you would have to pay for is the head and/or drum and/or instruments (plus an invite to 'cheng keuihdeih yam chah!')

Another thing: During the Chinese New Year, the HK Lion Dance Assoc. in cooperation with the HK Tourist Assoc. and other organizations hold a one-or two-week long lion dance festival including...LION DANCE INSTRUCTION (beginning AND advanced)!!! There's also demonstrations, etc. If you time your trip good, you could also use the same trip as a study or participation or something sponsored by somebody (??? <-- Does this make sense?)...just a thought. For more info., check out the HKTA web page. I have it somewhere in my saved-msgs folder; if you guys are interested, I'll post it. Also, I e-mailed the HKTA to get the dates of this year's (1997's) dates, and they were very quick and helpful in their response. I can post their e-mail, too (it's also on their web page).

Tim

Oops. Forgot some things:

The store I bought my head is the CRC dept. store. There are several stores like this in HK. They are China importers basically. If you feel adventurous, you could take a trip into China, Fat Shan region, and try to get it direct from the manufacturer. But if you do, remember to take pic.'s and post them to this list. The heads I saw were Fat Shan. Black and multi-color and probably any other color, you just may have to order them. They had different sizes, Reg., Med., Med., & Sm. The competition heads I saw were red/wht. fur and something else/wht. fur. Basic construction (rather weak) - you probably gotta reinforce 'em yourselves. They do NOT deliver (at least when I got mine they didn't), so you gotta either ship it back yourself or luggage it.

Tim

Hi Tim,

Great info.

This is about the price I saw when I was in HK last year. The stuff in the import places looked pretty weak but for $200 you can't complain. They weren't much worse then the stuff you get here in the states. I met a Choy Li Fut Sifu in Mong Kok, Kowloon that took the China made stuff and "improved" them. I think he just picked the better ones from China. He also customed made some too but they were outragous in price. (He wouldn't quote me a price) I saw one head and it was very intricate. supposedly, he is the last of the craftsman in Hong Kong. But then again, everyone you talk to is the "last" :-)

He had special containers to ship the equipment but it was expensive unless you did it in quantity. (something like $500 for 1-5 lions.)

> For more info., check out the HKTA web page. I
> have it somewhere in my saved-msgs folder; if you guys are interested,
> I'll post it.

The web page is http://www.hkta.org/ but I didn't see anything about this.

Stephen.

Stephen:

Who're you calling "Old School"?!!

As Lion Dance goes, at 37, I am still a spring chicken!

But to answer your "serious" inquiry:

I did both, the long and short of it. Hated the long, lots more work and if your partner can't keep up, you'll die fast...The short is a lot more forgiving and manuverable. But hey, given a choice, I'll do them both now!

And yes, I am a sentimental fool. i.e. I adhere more to the traditional "trappings" of the art form than I would normally would with other things...(an architect is not known much for doing things the same way too many times, but when it comes to lion dance, I don't mess with thousands of years of precedence. In fact, I constantly worry that I may lose any of it and that's why I try to hang on to the traditions that I know and preach them as best I could...To the 18, 19 year-olds, some of the ideas may be too abstract, but as Confucianistic instincts dictates, the "si-fu" is always right... :-)

That's not to say I don't appreciate the vivacity and skills that I am seeing coming out of KL now. To do power without form is not doing the art justice. To do form without power will not do the lion good. It's a balance of both. As I get up there in age and with my less than ideal physical capacity, jamming the dance takes a toll on me...but hey, you got to do what you got to do! The passion rules!

Business vs ceremonial dance. Both would emphasize a lot on "yee tau"(symbology, meaning). In Malaysia when I was doing it, businesses garner more "attention" because our si-fu said their "hoong baus" are bigger...thus we "work" harder, longer...pay a lot more attention to details(ascertain the mandarins are peeled in one piece, the coconut is split with minimal mess, the beer bottles are not toppled, the words are formed in greater details with the coins, etc...) But it's a matter of selecting a stance or a theme with an appropriate "wish" for the occassion. Whichever stance you chose to execute it is secondary. (Everyone loves the dance no matter which stance it is done in...)

As a side note, I gather from your email that you, too, are from Malaysia. Have a good trip! I am awaiting confirmation on a job we are pursuing in Johor Baru with Kumpulan Perubatan Johor. All goes well, we will be in JB in October. (Our other jobs in the region are in Setiu, Trengganu and Jakarta)

Thanks again for letting me "lion talk"...

Choy

> Who're you calling "Old School"?!!

Hah! "old school" refers not to your age but your experience. In the West Coast, if you are called Old School, you are considered part of the original crowd and not just a newbie.

I'll have to digest the rest of your post later. Too much email today :-) I hope others are getting something out of this...

Anyways, my wife is from JB and her uncle is a Sifu at a JB Bai He (Bak Hok) school. They were national Lion dance champion a few years back. I can't remember when. I don't speak manderin or teochew and they don't speak cantonese or english so it's hard to communicate in depth.

I'm 3rd generation ABC. :-) I have only been lion dancing for less then 3 years and I play with the Wing Lam Lion Dance in Sunnyvale Ca. There are many very experienced dancers on the list. Hopefully they will add in to the discussion.

I love both my Hung Gar and Lion Dance.

Stephen.

On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, Stephen Chew wrote:
> This is about the price I saw when I was in HK last year.
> The stuff in the import places looked pretty weak but for $200
> you can't complain. They weren't much worse then the stuff you
> get here in the states. I met a Choy Li Fut Sifu in Mong Kok, Kowloon
> that took the China made stuff and "improved" them. I think he
> just picked the better ones from China. He also customed made
> some too but they were outragous in price. (He wouldn't quote me
> a price) I saw one head and it was very intricate. supposedly, he
> is the last of the craftsman in Hong Kong. But then again, everyone
> you talk to is the "last" :-)

What else do you know about this guy? Just curious. Would like to know more about the intricate head and his work/craftsmanship. You're right: The dept. store heads are pretty weak. Must reinforce/'customize'/'improve'.

> He had special containers to ship the equipment but it was expensive unless
> you did it in quantity. (something like $500 for 1-5 lions.)

Some co.'s ship in wooden crates. Sang Woo Loong in HK, I believe ships in metal containers...but you DO pay the cost...you get what you pay for: Their heads are top quality!

> The web page is http://www.hkta.org/ but I didn't see anything about
> this.

Thanks, Stephen! They don't post such esoteric info. as lion dancing (not until December, anyway). But I DID get some posters and program books from previous year's festival and IT LOOKS AWESOME!!! We may want to all get together a group to check it out (group disc. on airfare, etc.)! Thanks for your info. and input!

Tim

Hi Timothy,

> What else do you know about this guy? Just curious. Would like to know
> more about the intricate head and his work/craftsmanship. You're right:
> The dept. store heads are pretty weak. Must reinforce/'customize'/
> 'improve'.

I remember him as Chan Sifu. I forgot his full name. If I can find his business card, I will post more information. He is a Choy Li Fut Sifu and in his little shop had many articles about him and lion dance on the wals. Some even in English.

He claimed he shipped Lions to Doc Fai Wong in San Francisco.

He was a real nice guy ready to share lion dance information and stories. He should how the China lions needed reinforcement and better painting. He sold his for about 2000 HKD. His came with the pants and both the long or short lengths. (I'm not sure about the dept store ones.)

I saw pictures of the custom built ones. They had really fine hair, bright balls, animals in the horns, etc. They also had more ornamentation like real studs and stuff. He said they were bamboo and not light like the Malaysian ones. They were beautiful.

> Thanks, Stephen! They don't post such esoteric info. as lion dancing (not
> until December, anyway). But I DID get some posters and program books
> from previous year's festival and IT LOOKS AWESOME!!! We may want to all
> get together a group to check it out (group disc. on airfare, etc.)!
> Thanks for your info. and input!

Thanks to you too. Which island are you on?

Stephen.

Hi Choy,

Welcome!

> If you can clue me in as to where to price out for the following:
> Lion head and tail(preferably red, although yellow or black will be OK)
> the drum
> 2 sets of cymbals
> 1 gong

You can try the following address in Malaysia:

WAN SENG HANG TRADING,
Mr H.P.Siow,
No.32, 2/29, Old Town,
46000 Petaling Jaya,
Selangor,
Malaysia

Tel/Fax:03-7922968
Hand phone: 019-3346458

You can speak directly to master Siow on the matter (he speaks many chinese dialect). They deal with everything about the lion dance.

Hope the infomation is helpfull, and hope to see you more on the list.

Regards

George Chan,

Hi Stephen,

Well, When I ordered our lion in early 1997 from WAN SENG HANG (Siow sifu)the ordinary coloured lion is around RM 1300, the silver and golden ones RM 1600 and the the batik lion is RM 1800. (Not including freight.) The size (2, 2.5 & 3) does not effect the price. The gong is the most expensive musical instrument, at RM 320(becuase you will never need to replace it!), and the drum is RM 270, and the cymbals are RM 80 per pair.

> These lions were aluminum frame with PVC handles and some
> bamboo. The tails included the pants. The size did
> not matter. (1,2 or 3). They were made in Kuala Lumpar.
> I loved these lions. I don't know how I would ship
> them here. (Though we are allowed check in luggage)

They are usually shipped by checking in as luggage on an aircraft. That's why most of them are packed in clear plastic bags(so the handlers can see that it is fragile!).

Hope the infos hopeful.

George

Hi Terence,

> but from a modern perspective, symbolisms don't seem to matter that much
> any more. agreed that if they, white and silver, did mean the same, they
> wouldn't be used, but in competitions they go for the look rather than
> the meaning. so if that were the case they could both have the same
> meaning right?

Well, yes, symbolisms don't mean as much as it used to be, but there are still some things that are hold very sacred in 'modern' times such as the lion must be 'kai Kuang', and etc. That's why red is always used for joyous occasions and white for sad occasion. Symbalism is still important in the competition as it is still very much a cultural competition. In the world championship, the colour of the lion head doesn't really matters, but I am very sure if a 'funeral' lion is used it raise a lot if not all of the Sifu's(/judges) eyebrow! Also, the white lion is called a "Song Si" (sad lion), as oppose to the "Sing Si" (Awakening lion).

Regards,

George

Tim Lee wrote:
> If you feel
> adventurous, you could take a trip into China, Fat Shan region, and try to
> get it direct from the manufacturer. But if you do, remember to take
> pic.'s and post them to this list. The heads I saw were Fat Shan. Black
> and multi-color and probably any other color, you just may have to order
> them. They had different sizes, Reg., Med., Med., & Sm. The competition
> heads I saw were red/wht. fur and something else/wht. fur. Basic
> construction (rather weak) - you probably gotta reinforce 'em yourselves.
> They do NOT deliver (at least when I got mine they didn't), so you gotta
> either ship it back yourself or luggage it.

The heads I got from Fat Shan came out qu9ite nicely and they were able to match most of the color schem that I had drawn up or photographed for them. They even put the softer fur on it as we requested them. The prices we paid were something like $254 for a head and tail - size 1,2,and 3. The crating and shipping was another $250 for a size 2 to Hawaii and about $300 for a size 1. This was from the Foshan Factory and all our correspondances were through fax and letters and a few telephone calls.

Sherman

Tim Lee wrote:
> Some co.'s ship in wooden crates. Sang Woo Loong in HK, I believe ships
> in metal containers...but you DO pay the cost...you get what you pay for:
> Their heads are top quality!

I didn't know Sang Woo loong used metal containers. Our last order with them came in wood crates and their quality was not the greatest. You can look at some of the older heads at KMT and Lung Kong and compare them with the newer ones. The heads were all from Sang Woo Loong but the later ones have much wider spacing in the framing and the bamboo is weaker. They also shipped us some drums and instruments but it was very obvious that they came from China. In fact, the container the drum came in said "made in China". Sang Woo Loong just painted their name on the drum. Word to the wise: If your buying a drum from HK, think again. Most are made in China and could probably be bought at a cheaper price.

Sherman

I do know of another use for the white lion besides funerals and sad occassions. In the Lung Kong Society, there are the four patriachs: Lau, Kwan, Chong, and Chu. Of course, each has its own colored lion and the white lion represents Chu. I'm not sure if anyone else is familiar with the Lung Kong Society. They are one of the original three lion dance groups in Hawaii and I think they have a strong organization in San Fran.

Sherman

Hello to all!

Let me introduce myself. I'm Chee Hong and I'm presently studying in National University of Singapore. I've been learning Lion Dance for about 6 years now. However, i have only been committed recently.

Presently, I'm the Chairperson for my varsity Lion Dance Troupe. I've been following this mailing list for about a year now and I find it quite interesting that Lion Dancing is quite popular overseas.

Well before I bore all of you all, I have a question which I hope you can solve for me. Presently, I have one lion-head which is beyond salvage and is due for disposal. Is there any specific procedure to follow before disposing of the lion-head? My instructor told me it is best to burn it as it had undergone the "Kai Guang" ceremony. What is the normal procedure before burning the lion-head??

Hope that my question is not too hard...:)

Chee Hong

Hi Sherman,

> I do know of another use for the white lion besides funerals and sad
> occassions. In the Lung Kong Society, there are the four patriachs:
> Lau, Kwan, Chong, and Chu. Of course, each has its own colored lion and
> the white lion represents Chu. I'm not sure if anyone else is familiar with the Lung Kong Society.
> They are one of the original three lion dance groups in Hawaii and I
> think they have a strong organization in San Fran.

That sounds very interesting. Is the patriachs named after characters in the Three Kingdom period of China? By my understanding, if Chu is Chu Zi Loong, the colour scheme of the lion that is usually used to represent him is green face, black fur, with green and black body. It is interesting that they use the white lion. Does Lung Kong mean Dragon River, Dragon Vase or two Chinese surnames?

George