Hi, Kirby!

Thanks for the great info.! Your lion sounds like it's gonna be cool! Any pic.'s you can post? Before/After? You're really into it!

Anyone else have any comments/input on the below? Any dealings with the mentioned vendors? Prices sound reasonable. Is it the short tail?

Thanks!

Tim

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 07:20:00 -1000
From: LIM.KIRBY_A@WEST-LA.VA.GOV
Subject: Copy of: Re: San Gabriel Valley Chinese Cultural Assn, Inc. (fwd)

Hi Tim!

Sorry I'm gettin' back to you so late with the info. If you like, you may share this info with liondance@mail.sdsu.edu mail group.

>Hi Kirby!

>Great to hear from you! Just wondering from which shop did you purchase
>that head?

I was referred by Brendan Lai's Supply Company in San Francisco. They are a retail carrying a wide assortment of weapons, references and outfits. Sifu Lai is well known and respected and teaches the praying mantis style.

Brendan Lai's Suuply Co.
2075 Mission Street
San Francisco, CA 94110

(415) 626-8850
(800) 362-8850

Mrs. Lai and her son, Alvin, have been very helpful. They have hunted down an importer located in SF as well who stocks lion heads and the musical instruments.

Darwell Import Company, Inc.
PO Box 882193
San Francisco, CA 94188

(415) 826-0807
(fax) (415) 826-3554

Darwell Import is open Monday thru Friday only. My contact here is Corine Lai, Office Manager. She assisted with the displaying of several lion heads that they have in stock. They carry the basic white (Pei), red (Kuan) and black (Chang). They also have the gold lions (head trimmed with orangish nylon hair/body is a golden yellow tail with white fur trim). They had a full stock of different sizes (1, 2 & 3s)-- not sure what they have now. They also carry the coordinating pants. Being 6 ft tall, they naturally didn't have my size. Corinne has been very helpful and she even let me take pix of the lions. They have an awesome red lion on display in their showroom. It's painted as an older Kuan/darker head colors. All their heads are fat-shan.

Please let the above two merchants that I referred you. I told 'em that I would help "advertise" for them. You won't be disappointed with them.

Clarion Music Store in SF Chinatown carries Hok-Shan heads but they are expensive!

>Is it a China head or Hong Kong head?

Darwell Imports' lions are from fat-shan in China. However, as with any head/purchase you should see the product and test it out. The one I chose was of solid construction. The exterior colors didn't matter b/c I'm modifying it to a hybrid. ...Well, okay, I did go for the colors of the pom-pom's!

>Who is the manufacturer? Sang Woo Loong?

Forgot to look this one up for you. But I still have the cloth tag that was tied to the lion's horn. They were sold out for the special top knots. They did have the sea eagle/phoenix in place of the standard horn.

>How much was it?

My price was US$450 for a multi-color Size 1. I paid an additional US$80 to have it trucked to Southern California 'cuz the darn thing wouldn't fit in my Honda CRX!! I told myself to not down-grade to a Size 2 and cough up the shipping fee. (I was glad I did!) I purchased it Friday and the darn lion had beaten me home! They use a small trucking carrier. Darwell carefully double-boxed my head. It arrived in good conditon/no damage. The elder staff took extra care. They give that special touch for YOUR merchandise. That's why I feel you won't be disappointed with 'em.

>What sorts of mod's are you doing to it? Thanks!

I attended Tat Mau Wong's Intl Lion Dance Competition in June '97. I chaperoned 3 high school teenagers who went hyped during the 5hr ordeal. I looked at some of the hybrids that were used and I told myself that I could do a better job at a lower budget. So far, I'm under budget of ~US$600. A hybrid usually costs US$1,600.

Modifications: A complete hybridization from a standard multi-color to a customized color lion. That's why the pom-pom colors were the most important feature on the head at the time of purchase.

Color: metallic peacock blue/teal, metallic mallard green, silver with white fur trim.

Head: silver with blue, green, purple, yellow and orange detail. Of course it's gonna have peacock blue eyelids!

Body: 3-color scheme as above. Since this lion is for personal use, I've opting not to put any name on the collar. Instead, I'm putting on a couplet saying for good wishes.

Top-knot: Since there have been some email chains goin' on re: this issue, I'm leaning toward cutting off the black horn and contruct a dragon or phoenix top-knot. Yes, I can use the traditional way of making things outta bamboo. (I made a 14-foot centipede kite outta bamboo and tissue paper in the 7th grade. And yes, it did fly!)

Fur: Detached the nylon polyester stuff and have purchased fur trim for the head and body.

Pants & Claws: coordinating color scheme with body.

My material and supplies have all arrived, so now I don't have an excuse of not starting the hybridizing. I still have time, but Chinese new year is just around the corner...

Cost:

special order for the metallic fabric, fur and detail trim (gimp) US$450

silver paint and high gloss acrylic US$20.

plus, the labor of love to just do it!

Keep your eyes peeled at the Los Angeles, Alhambra/San Gabriel and San Francisco new year parades. Sorry folks, I have only text email. I will see if I can get someone to scan pix of the pre- & post-hybrid lion in the future.

I hope this info helps and thx for your interest.

l8r,
Kirby Lim
lim.kirby@west-la.va.gov

Hi Tim,

Tell Kirby his info was great! Thanks for passing it along.

Stephen.

To George Chan, I have received the "blessing" that you have sent me about a week ago. Thank you. More later... quite busy these days.

Thanks again and regards.

Peter Liew.

Tim Lee wrote:
> Thanks for the great info.! Your lion sounds like it's gonna be cool!
> Any pic.'s you can post? Before/After? You're really into it!
> Anyone else have any comments/input on the below? Any dealings with the
> mentioned vendors? Prices sound reasonable. Is it the short tail?

Hey Tim,

We bought some lions from Corinne at Darwell and had them shipped to Hawaii. It was very reasonable. The heads cost $450 plus an additional $60 for shipping to my front door. They arrived in pretty good shape. We also bought a Northern lion set from Darwell. That was a few years ago but I don't think Corinne has carried it since. Price for the Northern set was about $1900. It came with full costume for One male adult, one female adult, and two baby lions.

Corinne was very helpful.

Sherman

Hi - I'm currently drumming with a liondance team in Northern California. Our 24" drum has a very high pitch. Does anyone know if the skin head can be detuned so that the pitch is a little lower?

Thanks,

Andy

Hi, Andy!

Pour water on it.

...Nah...seriously...that high pitch (correct me if I'm wrong) is the sound of a very tight, dry drum head (skin). To me, it's pretty awesome! The tighter and higher the sound (sometimes the damn drum even *pings*!) the better (to me). When I was in HK, it's so humid there, people are used to loose drums and the dull thud/thump; sometimes, they even play in the rain. Happy drumming!

Tim

On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, Tim Lee wrote:
> ...Nah...seriously...that high pitch (correct me if I'm wrong) is the
> sound of a very tight, dry drum head (skin). To me, it's pretty awesome!
> The tighter and higher the sound (sometimes the damn drum even *pings*!)
> the better (to me). When I was in HK, it's so humid there, people are
> used to loose drums and the dull thud/thump; sometimes, they even play in
> the rain. Happy drumming!

why would you want to change the pitch of a drum. to me that high pitch is great. and chances are if the skin is tight now, it'll last longer this was meant for andy sorry for any confusion. what drumming do you play:northern or southern? just curious

TY

What the other guys said about the water and moisture is true. I vaguely remember as a kid that we used peanut oil one time. Then again, from by baseball days, we used to use saddlesoap to soften the leather. I personally prefer the higher pitched drums. The bounce of the stick is the major reason. You won't get as tired as quickly as you would with a dull drum. With the flat drums, you tend to strike it harder to get it to resonate and it takes more energy to lift the sticks up for the next beat. To me, people that play the low drums generally play a slower beat because of these reasons - not that a slow beat is bad.

Happy Drumming!

Sherman

On Sun, 30 Mar 1997, layton wrote:
> How did the festival go in Toronto????

I'm not Ron, but I'll tell you a bit about it. :) I didn't count, but there were about 19 schools participating...from Wing Chun to Northern Shaolin, Pak Mei and Wu Tai Chi as well as contemporary wushu. There were at least 25 lions. Maybe as many as 30-33. Two dragons, with one of the dragon teams visiting from China. The day started at about 11am with just general uncoordinated drumming, face-painting etc, with the opening ceremonies at 1pm. Our group did the opening drumming at 1 o'clock. Lots of lion dancing off the stage...northern lions, southern lions. Baby lions running around :).

It was very neat to see the dragon teams approach from afar - two dragons winding their way above the crowds of people.

The dragon team from China performed an excellent dance, so far as my untrained eye could appreciate :).

There were gung-fu demonstrations by all of the schools on the stage, as well as Chinese Dancing (including a very cute number with little girls dressed as goldfishes). Our group went last on the stage, performing a 5-lion dance (I went up on the 14 ft pole) and a gung-fu demo. Our sifu demonstrated long weapons sparring (spear) with a friend of his. Very neat. All in all, it was a good day. Overcast, not too warm, lots of people. Got a bit hairy sometimes, but well run overall, I think.

Unfortunately, I didn't actually get to see the whole event. A good portion was spent with my school, planning our lion dance etc.

> On your web page you mentioned the The National Lion Dance of
> the United States.. Which group is that and from what city do they come
> from?//

I must have missed them. Didn't see a u.s. team there. Tho I doubt their lions were red, white and blue either.

> And the National Dragon team from China. What kind of Dragon do they use?
> Small and bendable or the long giant type. I am looking for more news on
> the fancy dragon teams..

I didn't know there were different types. This was the 16 (?) person type. Long and bendable... :) Do you know which I'm talking about?

> Do you have the Iron and Silk sifu in Toronto now??? I think his name was
> pan ??

Yes, Master Pan Ching Fu has been in Toronto for a while now. I see him around often, tho I don't know him.

Take care,

Hugo

well it depends on what style of lion dance you do. i think traditional southern danceing would have a slower beat thus utilizing the flat drum. but for the northern lion as i know it, its like perpetual hei si(high lion, energetic lion, etc.) so theres more need for a tight high pitch drum. but nowadays i think people would prefer the tighter drum for ease of drumming and the sound. especialy (sp?) the thunder drum(bowing).

TY

Hiya...

I'm not one of those people. I think high drums sound nasal and wimpy. ;) Seriously I don't like the sound of really tight drums...the ones that sound like they're in falsetto. Personally, I think high ones that aren't too high are ok, but I prefer mid-range sounds. I don't particularly care for loose sounding drums either. They sound floppy. The sound of the drum we have (the one with the big hole) sounds nice. :)

Bye,

Hugo

>>Do you have the Iron and Silk sifu in Toronto now??? I think his name
>>was pan ??

Master Pan attended Tat Mau Wong' Intl Kung Fu Competition in June. I sat on the opposite side of the gym of Sifu Pan during the opening night events, you could hear him striking the metal plate with his fist. AWESOME!! But, major arthritis when he gets older.....

Kirby

I'm not sure, but "long and bendable,"is the northern type dragon and "large,giant" a southern. All in all I wish I was there!

Henry

Can anyone shed more details on the following routines?

High Dance ( same as hei si??)

3 Star ( while hei si, step left crossing legs over, step right crossing legs over, then step left crossing legs over again?)

5 Star and 7 Star..

I was also wondering what other tricks ppl do.. I've seen heaps from the competitions but it's difficult to work out without an explanation of how to do it..

uhh.. (for the sake of confusing cantonese into english i'll write English descriptions :)..jump on legs, jump on 1 leg, jump on raised leg, jump straight up, jump on shoulders, clap legs (jump and head claps), paw (jump and paw legs win air), basic roll, standing roll with butterfly kick (not that i can do it :), uhh that one where you wrap your legs round the tail :).. , 180 turn (head jumps and tail moves him so he's facing the opposite direction), 1 leg on shoulders, hmm.. that's all i can think of at the moment..

so.. anyone wanna explain some new tricks ?

later

Hey, Stephen!

Sorry took so long in replying. I'm on Oahu, the main, city island in Hawaii. How 'bout you where you from? Anyone from HK on this list?

Tim

I'm wondering if anyone out there has access to the video of the competition at Tat Mau's tournament for lion dance only or even a bootleg of it. The highlights of the competition had very little on the lion dances this year, and I wanted to catch as much as possible even though those were my si-hings who won; even our own group can't get access to the video. I was out of the country during that time. Much help is appreciated.

-Jarrett Chin

On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Lillian Ching wrote:
> I'm not sure, but "long and bendable,"is the northern type dragon and
> "large,giant" a southern. All in all I wish I was there!
> Henry

Hi Henry...my Sifu says that Dragons are not divided into 'northern' or 'southern'. He does say that there are two types. The big one can have 100 people playing it, while the small ones have around ten, plus one for the ball. The ones at the festival were of the 11 person team variety.

Out of curiosity...you know, I just answered my own question. :) Lillian, you're in Hawaii, right?

Bye!

Hugo

There are actually two types. Dragons are played differently depending on where they come from. They are played on similar poles but some are played by moving the poles up and down, some by twisting and torquing, and they more active way by swinging the poles side to side. Although the several different ways of playing, the body construction can fall under two categories. Its not necessarily divided by north and south. I tend to see one particular type from Hong Kong - that is the Dragon which has a body that isnt tubular. There really isn't a bottom "ribbed" section like a serpant. Instead, the HK dragons drape on the sides and sometimes cover the heads of the players. These dragons are not intended to be swung from side to side. The other type more common around the rest of Asia is the tubular type that really resembles the body of a serpant. These dragons usually have a bottom side that is ribbed like the belly of a snake. These dragons usually the ones we see running in all kinds of circular patterns and swinging its body from side to side. Don't get me wrong though, HK does also have these dragon too.

--Sherman

Hi Tim,

Oahu. Cool. Near Waikiki?

I'm from Sunnyvale California which is south of San Francisco in the "Silicon Valley." I'm with the Wing Lam Lion Dance group.

There is a web site from HK. I don't know if they read this list.

Stephen.

> Can anyone shed more details on the following routines?
> High Dance ( same as hei si??)

What is Hei Si? In Cantonese, we call this Go wu or High Dance :-) It is the the time when the drum beat is fast and rolling but not a roll. The lion head is held high and looks left and right, surveying the area. It also usually takes big fast steps during this time.

> 3 Star ( while hei si, step left crossing legs over, step right crossing legs
> over, then step left crossing legs over again?)

Three star (Sam Sing) is a beat pattern and is accompanied by movement left, right and center. It could be cross legs like you mentioned or kicks or just head movements. When done this way, 7 star will follow.

We do a short 3 star which is used for three identical movements which then end in a pose. Usually used when two lions disengage.

> 5 Star and 7 Star..

I've never heard of 5 star.

7 star (chut sing) is also a beat pattern that is very difficult to explain on the net. It ends in a pose. We use it when we are about to jump onto something. We also use it when we are testing a Chang. It also should be done before the end of the dance.

There are many ways to play 7 star but they have the same measure and basic rythmn. Has anyone devised a way to write drum beats on email?

> I was also wondering what other tricks ppl do.. I've seen heaps from the
> competitions but it's difficult to work out without an explanation of how
> to do it..

I'll save that for another post.

Stephen.

> Oahu. Cool. Near Waikiki?

Sort of. There are other people from Hawaii on this list...

:)

> There is a web site from HK. I don't know if they read this list.

Do you have the URL? Thanks!

Tim

Stephen, let me help you out for some of the terms in Lion Dance. "Hei Si" means Lion Get up or to start the lion dance. We will use the "Triangle step" in Hung Gar. High Dance is for the Lion head held high with 3-6-9 drum bits. "3 Star" is our 3-6 drum beats. It can be used in a lot of occasion. Such as clearing the path in front of the lion, lion showing excitements...

My suggestion to write drum beats on paper is to pratice with you mouth. I was taught by my SiFu thirty some years ago, if you can say it, you can hit it. I use "Dark" for the side of the drum and "Tung" for the inside of the drum. Of course you can have other way like "Skip beat - lau Koo"; "Cover beat - kamp Koo". It is very difficult to try to translate into english. Example: "3 Star" the 3-6 Drum beats in Hung Gar:

"Tung Tung Tung Tung Tung, Dark" - 3 times

Example: "7 Star" the 7-Star Drum beats in Hung Gar:
" Tung Tung, Tung Tung;
Tung Tung (Skip) Tung Tung Tung (Skip) Tung Tung Tung (Skip)
Tung(6 times) (Skip),
Tung(6Times),
Tung Tung Tung (Skip)
Note: Skip is to use your fingers to touch the drum to stop the echo
I hope this will help and like to work with the stylist to develop a universal symbol for lion dance drum beats which will benefit all the newcomer.

Stephen, you have my permission to teach others with our Hung Gar drum beats. I hope by doing this will help to promote the "Traditional Lion Dance"

Thanks.

Regards,

Si-Sook Gobert Wing-Hong Yeung
Shaolin Hung Gar Tiger-Crane

> Stephen, let me help you out for some of the terms in Lion Dance.

Thank you Si-Sook,

> "Hei Si" means Lion Get up or to start the lion dance. We will use the
> "Triangle step" in Hung Gar.

Now I understand. What do others use for Hei Si? Do you know what we mean by Triangle step? It is a signature move of our system.

> High Dance is for the Lion head held high with 3-6-9 drum bits.

Agree. Why do ou call it 3-6-9? Also, is the triangle step beat and 3-6-9 the same length? I thought there was an extra "6" in 3-6-9 but Jeff thought they were the same. If I try to write it, it would be:

(Tung-Tung, Tung-Tung, Tung (4times), Tung-Tung) done 3 times then Tung, Tung, Tung (6times), Tung-Tung

Tung-Tung is two hits in the time span of one beat (X times) is a roll with that many hits. I could be of on the rolls since they are difficult to count.

does that look right?

> "3 Star" is our 3-6 drum beats. It can be used in a lot of occasion. Such as
> clearing the path in front of the lion, lion showing excitements...

agree.

> My suggestion to write drum beats on paper is to pratice with you mouth.
> I was taught by my SiFu thirty some years ago, if you acn say it, you can
> hit it. I use "Dark" for the side of the drum and "Tung" for the inside of the
> drum. Of course you can have other way like "Skip beat - lau Koo"; "Cover beat
> - kamp Koo". It is very difficult to try to translate into english.

> Example: "3 Star" the 3-6 Drum beats in Hung Gar
> "Tung Tung Tung Tung Tung, Dark" - 3 times
> Example: "7 Star" the 7-Star Drum beats in Hung Gar
> " Tung Tung, Tung Tung;
> Tung Tung (Skip) Tung Tung Tung (Skip) Tung Tung Tung (Skip)
> Tung(6 times) (Skip),
> Tung(6Times),
> Tung Tung Tung (Skip)
> Note: Skip is to use your fingers to touch the drum to stop the echo

For something close to this, check out http://www.hkstar.com/%7Eboris/boris.html and try "drum 4" It sounds like 3-star to 7-star.

I would also ammend 7 star like the following:

Tung-Tung, Tung-Tung;
Tung Tung (Skip) Tung Tung-Tung (Skip) Tung Tung-Tung (Skip)
Tung(6 times) Tung-Tung (Skip),
Tung(6Times) Tung-Tung,
Tung Tung Tung (Skip)

So any other takers out there? Does this work for them? I'm open to other forms too. If there is interest I'll write our other beats but let me know if anyone can follow this.

Stephen.

Hi - we are trying to repair and refinish a few older cracking liondance drums. Any ideas on how to seal them and recover or repaint them would be very helpful.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Andy

Hi Andy,

What sort of cracks, where are they, and can you still get a sound from the top? If the cracks are on the top, well try oil. A little at a time until leather is elastic again? I don't think you should paint the top especially in a humid area. I've done it and humidity quickly dulled the sound.

If the cracks are from the wooden frame, scrape off chips and prime, gesso, then paint. I hope I was some sort of help?

Henry Ching