dvo@u.washington.edu writes:
> Now my next question about prices is...how do we justify our charges? How
> come some group can charge $500 to $1000(or $2000) for a performance?
> Why are they charging so much and why do business still hire them over to
> perform? These are just curious thoughts, anybody can chip in what they
> thing is the cause. ;-)

The price is based on a few factors. If we bring a big group of performers and bring a few lions, that is one way to justify the price. Also, if they want us to do a kung fu performance also is another reason. Your school's reputation creates the demand and some people like using the same group each year because they know what they are going to get.

I think everything is relative. If it is a major corporation that wants a performance for some special event, then I think you should ask for a premium price. However, if it is a charity event for a good cause, then the demonstration should be free of charge.

I have one simple rule....if the organization that is hiring us is making a profit or charging an entry fee, then we should also be compensated.

John Wai

chrislow@fuller.edu writes:
> We were
> always taught the more you spend on a lion dance the more blessing it
> brings. In traditional Chinese custom it wasn't such a business thing - it
> was more of an offering to the gods. If you pleased the gods with your
> offering (made it big enough) then they would bless you in return.

This is one of the best reasons I have heard. You tell this to a Chinese owner and you are sure to get a premium price for your performance. ha ha..

John Wai

squidito:

no not that one. the one where the Lee Association on the 900th block of Grant Avenue have their "Hoi Nin" gig. when's that one? it should be coming up soon.

dr. doong chang

In a message dated 3/3/99 10:58:26 AM, dvo@u.washington.edu writes:
>Usally I set the price to $250 per performance....
>some will take that price and still some lowered it to about $200.

maaaaaaan...that's too cheap. average gig is for personal purposes like grand openings or weddings are $500-$750. don't forget, you're involving at least eight people. transportation and feeding these people as well. they have to take off from whatever they're doing to come and help. people do not live by love alone. they need $$$$$$$$$ too. and don't forget our overhead costs too. the lion does get worn everytime you go out. the cymbals get brittle and crack. not too mention rent and utilities in your studios.

dr. doong chang

In a message dated 3/3/99 10:58:26 AM, dvo@u.washington.edu writes:
>How come some group can charge $500 to $1000(or $2000) for a performance?
>Why are they charging so much and why do business still hire them over to
>perform? These are just curious thoughts, anybody can chip in what they
>thing is the cause. ;-)

the lion dance is considered an auspicious ceremony for certain events. it is worth that much only to the people who feel it's worth that much.

In a message dated 3/3/99 11:13:06 AM, dvo@u.washington.edu writes:
>loudness of it can damage our lungs

huh......say wot?

Doc Dooong Chang

In a message dated 3/3/99 12:08:05 PM, chrislow@fuller.edu writes:
>I don't know what to do if playing the new lions with the short tails.

use your imagination.

the doc

In a message dated 3/3/99 1:56:01 PM, ching2@gte.net writes:
>Gum cho is sucked on and chewing when flavor is gone then spit out.

is gum cho that long stringy dried plant that's like 3-4 inches long? is it chewed on straight from the bag?

Doc Doong Chang

dr. chang,

the lee on dong family association spring banquet this year will be on sunday april 25. normally yau kung moon will perform around 12 noon in front of the association building on 915 grant. the exact time can be confirmed a week before the event by calling the family association 415-982-0917. however, the association only answers in cantonese or toishanese.

david

Is sen sei celebration the same as birthday celebration?

>Well, there is no rule for burning firecrackers here in Seattle during our
>newyear (or am I just assuming...do you happend to know the real fact
>Geof?). So every store burn on the average of 500 pieces each.

There is a rule here... no firecrackers allowed without permit. BUT...we're lucky that the authorities usually just turn a blind eye to it for these kinds of events... AND good luck getting a permit! I think we have enough red tape in this city so by the time they decided they could issue a permit, you would have already done the performance, and they wouldn't have noticed you used firecrackers anyways. This mostly goes for the chinatown area, but we have only had a problem once in a rich neighborhood where neighbors called the fire dept. and 'busted' us before we could light them off. I think a big concern out here is fire hazzard, but you know how much it rains in Seattle!

g

>The price is based on a few factors. If we bring a big group of performers
>and bring a few lions, that is one way to justify the price. Also, if they
>want us to do a kung fu performance also is another reason. Your school's
>reputation creates the demand and some people like using the same group each
>year because they know what they are going to get.

Right. We do some big events, and it costs the business a lot. We'll have upto 4 southerns and a couple of northern lions going, a parade of the school banners, kung fu demo, etc. All the money we get goes to charities, we get nothing... except sometimes lunch! I think this is a good policy. I think this gets into 'yee hay' and traditional martial artists.

>I have one simple rule....if the organization that is hiring us is making a
>profit or charging an entry fee, then we should also be compensated.

Do you mean for watching the lion dance? I don't think that we would ever done, or will do, an event for an organiziation that was making a profit or charging to watch the lion dance.

g

>I ask the questions about prices is because we do get requests from
>private parties and because they are private and uses our dance for their
>own benifit, so we charge them. Usally I set the price to $250 per
>performance....some will take that price and still some lowered it to
>about $200.

Here's something that might be interesting to you.. One of our teachers at our Chinese medicine school told us something I thought was pretty smart.

He said, When your patients complain about the price being too high, then raise the price. When you patients say that the service is a good value for the money, then lower the price.

If you think about it.. it might make sense. I like those things that always have a 'hidden' meaning in it.. like a lot of other chinese philosophical stories that I've heard.

g

Doc Doong Chang,

Gum cho or licorice is sucked on. It is a bark with yellow sweet flavor. It is usually brought from a herb store or grocery store. It is cut on the bias into pieces about 1/2 inch by 1 inch by 1/8 inch thickness. All you have to do is put it into your mouth and leave it on the side of your cheek like the baseball players chewing tobacco. After all the taste is gone, spit it out and suck another piece. In my 35 years+ of lion dancing and firecrackers smoke, it is my lifesaver. I have been into many firecracker fire fights and not once have I ever chocked in the smoke nor does it cause you to cry from the smoke. There are many other medicinal usage of licorice. In Asian countries, during sports events, athletes have known to suck on licorice to quench their thirst and keep the mouth moist. I use it whenever I go walking or jogging and don't have time to drink water fearing having to use the bathroom. If you have a bad cough, it opens up your lungs. Ask your local Chinese herb doctor and he can advise you more on its good usage. Try it and you will like it.

Ernie

Fellow liondancers,

In regards to firecrackers, there are cheap, better, and premium firecrackers. It all depends on the paper used, chemicals used, packaging, etc. and the area of China where it is produced. As a semi-expert on firecrackers because of my business, I know quite a lot about the production of firecrackers. I have been to China to visit the factories twice to see first hand.

Two year ago, some American pyrotechnics when to China to mass produce firecrackers for the year 2000. They invented machines to make firecrackers instead of hand rolling by cheap labor. They experimented in central China by Peking. That is where Horse Brand firecrackers was first introduced. To cut down on the cost of the explosive powder, they found out how to mix the powder with clay. The strength is not so strong but by United States law, it still contains less than 5 milligram of total weight and not 5 milligram of explosive powder. By cutting down on the nitrate ingredient, the firecracker would blow up in half or split in half, instead of shattering all around the firecracker. If you would take apart a firecracker from Peking, you will notice that there is a spud that contains the fuse. After the fuse comes a small drop of nitrate and then a drop of clay. It is then sealed with more wet clay. So, when the firecracker ignites, the nitrate blow up and just splits in half where the clay joins the end of the firecracker. That is how you can buy firecrackers at such cheaper price. You get what you pay for. More clay, less powder, less bang. They are good for the price you pay. Not loud but who cares when it comes to $$$$$$$$$$$$.

In the better firecrackers like Lotus, Double Luck, Red Lantern, Black Cat, etc., they are made with silver nitrate with titanium. They creaet a much louder blast and it burns or burst cleaner with less duds. In the premium firecrackers like Duck, Peacock, and Roller Coaster, they use all silver nitrate and sulfur which is very expensive and explosive. They shatter the individual firecracker. The paper used is much thinner but rolled up many more times so they are more thicker in size. These are quality workmanship, each one manually rolled. Even the smoke smells better. As a matter of fact, they smell sweet compared with burning clay!!!

For your information, all firecrackers are 5 milligram in weight by law if they are Class "C" which everybody uses now. Any larger will classify them as Class "B" which you will need a Pyrotechnics license to burn.

If you want to know more, please email back for more details.

Ernie

In a message dated 3/3/99 10:43:04 PM, ernieloo@hotmail.com writes:
>Gum cho

thanks for the advice Ernie.

is the literal translation to gum cho is 'golden grass'?

Dr. Doong Chang

In a message dated 3/3/99 11:15:20 PM, ernieloo@hotmail.com writes:
>Horse Brand firecrackers

Yes!!!! I remember it was a long string of Horse Brand that just went *thud thud* and left a pile of sand on the floor. What a waste of money!

thanks Ernie for the informative letter. it's great to hear something from someone who knows what he's talking about.

dr. Doong Chang

Hi Doc Doong Chang,

On Wed, 3 Mar 1999 Atown888@aol.com wrote:
>>loudness of it can damage our lungs
> huh......say wot?

I am sorry, I typed too fast and skip myself...I mean to say that the loudness of the firecrackers can damage your ears and the firecrackers can damage your lungs.

Cheers,

DVo :-D

Hi Geof,

Thanks for the advise, I will keep in mind every time I negociate about performance prices...:-D

DVo

Does any of you have the training videos from Master Choy Li Fut I can borrow to view? I pormiss I will return it in good faith! Please let me know...

DVo

I think I have seen this clay firecrackers used this year at a Chinese groceries store...They had two Hanekane box full of them...I don't know how many sticks there were but they burned one at a time (at least 5 were burnign and throwing them at the lion) and it took 10minutes. It burned ok...when we went back, I found that the Lion head has holes and inside it is half of a firecracker.

Were they made to be any safer? Because I think it has potential to hurt bystandars and panatrate the lion head with holes..

DVo

hey, has anyone thinking about creating a chat room for this lion dance matter ?

M Vo, are you planning to attend the lion dance conference in SF ? What day will you be there ? and how many representative from your team will be there ?

Viet Thuan

>Does any of you have the training videos from Master Choy Li Fut I can
>borrow to view? I pormiss I will return it in good faith! Please let me
>know...

Sifu Tat Mau Wong has 2 videos produced by panther productions - you can get them from their website or their ad in most martial arts magazines. The first one goes over basic steps and instruments. The second one shows how to do special moves like the head jumping onto the tail's legs, rolling, as well as going over a few specific routines like lion comng out of the cave, seven stars and the moon, and the big headed buddah. In my opinion this one is still very basic and I didn't learn too much.

I had a copy of the second one but I lent it to Leon Wong (Leon - are you still on this list?). If he still has it, he can send it to you.

Chris

Hay, thanks Chris...I can't waite to see it!

I will either bring it with me to the Conference in SF this month or I will send it back to you when I am done viewing it! :-)

DVo

Hi Thuan,

I can create a bulitine board for every to post their message on if you guys really want to have one. But I think Chris Low is working on archiving all the messages that comes through...what do you guys think? Do you want a message board for us to descuss on? I already have one set for school but I can easily set it up to run for this group in about a day or two.

> M Vo, are you planning to attend the lion dance conference in SF ? What
> day will you be there ? and how many representative from your team will
> be there ?

Yes, I will be comming doen to the Conference, but I am going alone because all my team members will still be in school then (I am planning to come down there early. So are yo going? I have not book my flight yet because I am still waiting for my admission letter to the University of Washington, Bothell to let me know when their new student orientation is so that I can book my flight!

Good night all!
(It's now 2:45AM-up late typing up my essay :-|)

DVo

Hi, Chris!

Only one place we performed at used firecrackers for us every year. So I don't have lots of experience with them, but that place did use lots.

> under it right by your face. In the old southern lions with the
> long tails we could wrap the tail across our face. In these lions
> we could also flap the tail to clear firecracker smoke out of the
> lion - lift one side of the tail and fan the smoke out with the
> other side. I don't know what to do if playing the new lions with
> the short tails.

I've been the tail in both the long and short lions. With the short ones you must just flap very fast and hard. It works best if you plan in advance with the head to go through the smoke and not linger in it. That way you can lift lots of fresh air in under the tail. To a limited degree you can time the lifting to draw from the sides or the front.

After the first few times, we learned to position the instrument players up wind before the performance. One of the owner's sons seemed to think it was fun to throw the firecrackers under the tail, but many times it was possible to kick them right back with accuracy. I never thought to ask before now, but is that allowed?

Hearing protection is a necessity. Also don't let the fabric of the tail touch or rest on your head in case any firecrackers land on top. The audience and shops like the lion near the firecrackers, but there is no reason to stay still in the smoke.

Best regards
-Lars

Good technique can reduce the wear and tear on the lion, but even then they last only so long. The newer paper ones virtually self destruct even just hanging on the wall.

> the lion does get worn everytime you go out. the cymbals get
> brittle and crack. not too mention rent and utilities in your
> studios.

The cymbals should last for decades if played properly. They should not colide head-on, but at slight angles instead. It gives more sound as well as less damage. The drums go flat rather quickly, however.

-Lars

> >I have one simple rule....if the organization that is hiring us is making a
> >profit or charging an entry fee, then we should also be compensated.
> Do you mean for watching the lion dance? I don't think that we would ever
> done, or will do, an event for an organiziation that was making a profit or
> charging to watch the lion dance.

I don't mean charging just for watching the Lion Dance. If they charge an entry fee to get into an event or festival and profit from it, then we should be compensated for our performance.

John Wai

Hi Lars,

I do not mind the firecrackers' noise as much as its smoke. During new year's eve this year, our temple lit approximately 10,000 of them (continuous litting for ~8minutes). The weather that day was moist and humid so the smoke is dense and concentrated. There was no wind either. We first started at the starting end of the string of firecrackers and it leads straight to the stage.

At 11:55pm we started dancing and at 12 they lit the firecrackers. We had ear plugs on so the noise was not a problem; however, we can't bare the smoke. They are so densed and unbreathable. What I did was I directed the two lions forward, and play the firecrackers going backward toward the stage to avoid the smoke. Well, the complaint I got afterward was that Lion is SUPOSE to play after the firecrackers (meaning the lion approaches as the string of firecrackers work its way toward the end). Well, is there a rule for playing with firecrackers? Because my rationale then was to get my members out of the smoke, and not care if the lion was playing backward or forward toward the stage, rather then be in the smoke and playing forward.

Can someone shed some light into this?

Thanks,

DVo

P.S.: I am not sure about kicking the firecrackers back at the thrower or because other bystandards might get hurt from it. Usually, we (the ones who was not holding the head or tail at the time) put it out by steping on it and put out the fuse of the firecrackers stick and have a security or someone from the team go talk to the person not to do it again. If they don't cooporate, we will kick them out of the area or keep a close eye on them during the dance.

In a message dated 3/4/99 9:33:12 AM, dvo@u.washington.edu writes:
>Well, the complaint I got afterward was that Lion
>is SUPOSE to play after the firecrackers (meaning the lion
>approaches as the string of firecrackers work its way toward the end).
>Well, is there a rule for playing with firecrackers? >>

NO RULES! At the long strings of firecrackers where you have the octogon shape at the end that just explodes all at once.....that's the time to get your c-fut outta there and as safe of a distance as possible.

Dr. Doong Chang

I'm from montreal canada... the same rule applies... but here, it's soo easy to get a permit, no one really cares. for shows in chinatown, it's even easier. We've been stopped a couple of times by the cops to chesck for a permit... they wished us a happy new year and let us on our way.

About the fire crackers... I think it's a really great idea if people wear ear plugs... the soft quishy foam ones. I'm the drummer, and drumming for 3 hours stait, your ears have a tendancy to ring.

I was wondering... does anyone know where i can get new LD equipment?? Cost is not a problem. We had 4 new lion heads and they all got damaged. Fractured frames, ripped paper and the ears broke. 2 were traditional lion heads and the other 2 was singapor stpye lions, the ones with the big flat mouths. The company we got them from In china, (i don't recall the name because the sifu ordered them,) moved and we can't find them now. if anyone can get back to me, I'd really apreciate it...

Thanks.

Jason Lee