Hi All,

This message is for Brian Fong..in case there are more than one Brian Fong on this list, I will try to narrow it down...The Brian Fong I know went to the Liondancer's Conference and is living in Diamond Bar CA. and I he said he's on this list...I just want to get your e-mail address again correctly.

Well, Brian, the e-mail you gave me at the conference could not be found:

bwfong@csupomont.edu

Am I missing something? Please reply to me directly when you get this message...

For the rest of list, please excuse me, you may delete this message now to save server space.

Thanks all,

Dvo

Hi everyone!

Sorry for such a late reply, and thank you Willy for providing such a good review. Anyway, firstly on behalf of all of us from Malaysia (Master Siow, Yip, Dickey and me) we wholeheartedly thank everyone in San Francisco for showing us a wonderful time. All praises to the organizers and all of you who were so kind to us. We felt that the conference and all of the exchanges in between was a great success and could not have been better. We hope that our present there has been of help to you all. We also hope that we have lit a small spark to the art of lion dance in the US, as we see great potential for teams/troupes in the US to greatly promote and preserve this art. (I also hope my 'lecture' did not bored all of you to death!)

We were impressed with the organizations of the conference, and the caliber of the speakers. We were so intimidated at first! Luckily, we were made so much at home by everybody. Dr. Hu got along very well with Master Siow as both of them are also interested in Chinese Opera. The translator, Gregory, was so good. It is difficult to translate for master Siow as he does not prepare a script and he uses many Chinese words with no direct English translation. Again all praises to the effort of the organisers!!

The enthusiasm of the participants was also impressive as there are people from Hawaii, Texas, Oregon and Washington present. The participant from Oregon drove down for the all the 2 conference weekend!

Basically, Master Siow managed to cover many topics, some of them are very new. I myself learnt quite a lot too! There was not enough time to cover the complete Hock Shan drum beats but those that he taught is enough for a routine performance or competition. The 2 or 3 beats/stanzas he left out is quite complicated and thus not often used anyway. I am glad that Willey finds Master Siow's 'musical note' easier to use. Actually the one taught in SF is a upgraded version. During my time there were no gong (and I was the gong!) or cymbal(the lines underneath the dots) notations.

Our trip to the US has given us a glimpse into the lion dance scene there and personally, I noticed many interesting differences. One of them is the existence of many different 'types' of lion dance groups. There are groups form by martial arts schools, which teaches lion dance with the attitudes similar to the martial arts, and then there are groups which is more club-like family orientated where family members are involved, etc. In Malaysia we don't have such variety, as most teams tend to focus on competition and/or lion dance choy cheng during new year. I have never seen teams where family members give such good support to members of the team. Personally I think this is something good that is lacking in Malaysia as parents here are generally not as supportive towards lion dancing. There is also very, very few teams that are form here that is basically just for interest sake, an exception is the Selangor/Federal Territory Senior Women's Lion Dance Team!

Another interesting difference is the abundance of female lion head and tail dancers, and drummers. In Malaysia this is not as common. However, female lion head dancers and male lion tails are unheard of in Malaysia! It just shows how immature we are here :))!

We were also surprise at the variety of people form different walks of life involved in lion dance, especially professional people like doctors, dentists, lawyers, etc, and even a judge and a NASA rocket scientist!! :).

>Keith and Stephen have already discussed what happened over the
>weekend. Master Siow introduced us to the Hok Shan style of
>liondancing as well as the 18-style drumming. Basically, there are 18
>patterns, or stanzas, that each have a unique drum pattern as well as
>a standard set of lion movements. For example, there is the bow,
>raising of the lion (chrysanthemum flower), investigative step(s),
>going up the mountain, crossing the river, going down the mountain,
>plucking the cheng, final bow, big headed monk pattern, as well as a
>slew of others (unfortunately, we didn't have time to learn all 18
>styles - we learned about 12 of them). I think the most important
>part of Master Siow's teachings was his use of a standardized drum
>score, with its own set of characters that represent different

Actually, Master Siow only teached 12 styles to most people. I think (I keep forgetting to ask him) the trem '18 style' is just a name. There are 'variation beats' too which are invented relatively recent, but since these are not 'standard' he doesn't teach them often. Anyway, out of the 12 styles 7 of them are for the 'testing' steps.

>encourages suggestions and corrections all the time. George told me
>that in Asia, everyone shares their ideas. Even at the world
>championships, teams were actually PRACTICING together. Some even
>used each other's props, and even LION HEADS! How often does that
>happen in the West? Some people here don't even tell other teams
>where they get their equipment. Everyone in Asia is extremely
>friendly towards each other because they realize they are all a part
>of the same community. Unfortunately, I have not seen this at all in
>the liondance community of the West (not totally at least), but I

Well, actually not everyone does that in Malaysia, but we are trying hard. We do still have the same problems here and these attitudes cannot be changed overnight. There are still incidences of bad faith in the Malaysian Lion dance community too(especially in competitions). We still have a long way to go when everyone in the lion dancing community discarges all its unhealthy rivalries and jealousy, but with the promotion of Master Siow's philosophies towards lion dance we are at least making a start. Usually those teams that adopt Master Siow's philosophies are the teams that are willing to share and work together.

>I also got a chance to learn basic steps with Master Siow privately.
>In fact, I spent 8 hours practicing with him yesterday, and 14.5
>hours total! He is a very patient and practical teacher. Actually,
>he is like a silly uncle that we all have at least one of. Hehe. I
>hope he doesn't mind me saying that. As far as the stepping, he

Ho! Ho! Yep, you can say that! But when he is teaching he is really serious. He hits his best students!

>As everyone may know, Master Siow manufactures the finest lions in
>the world, using the most advanced materials and techniques. The
>infrastructure of his heads are anchored by an aluminum rim with pvc
>pipes for the handles of the head. The heads are coated not with
>papier mache strictly, but a type of hardened fiber that looks like
>the material from a medical cast to me. Maybe George Chan can
>explain it better, because I really don't know that much about these new
>materials. Many manufacturers say that his techniques aren't really
>advancements but these people are completely wrong, in my opinion. A
>solid aluminum rim absorbs stress much better than bamboo and the
>rest of the frame will hold up longer. The pvc handles will save your
>hands a lot of wear. That fibrous material won't tear like papier
>mache. I think another advantage is that he does away with all those
>excess pom-poms on the top of the head - he only leaves two big ones
>on the nose. You can add more yourself but I always thought those
>pom-poms were unnecessary. It seems to me that the only people who
>criticize his heads are only manufacturers and resellers (I
>experienced this over the weekend). Liondancers everywhere

The material mentioned is actually cotton gauze, glued onto the frame then paper mache is glued on to the gauze. Anyway, glad to hear that you like Master Siow's lion head, however I do like to hear what the criticsm are as I think if it is valid I can tell Master Siow so that he could improve his product. So far, I find that with his head there is a tendency for the back of the lion head to crack. He knows it and is currently finding ways to reinforce it.

Well, that's all from me now. It is good to hear such good feedback on the conference, but I would also like to hear any comments or criticsm on us so that we can exhange ideas and improve. It was also good to meet you guys on the list in person. Once again thank you all for such a wonderful time in SF! Hope to get a chance to talk more on this matter in a later date.

George Chan,
Tawau, Sabah,
Malaysia

Hello George,

Nice to hear from you again.  I'm sorry I haven't contriibuted anything lately - recovering in school has taken me quite a while since I took an entire week off for the conference!  Thanks for clearing up those issues regarding the 18 styles (how does 'going down the mountain' go, by the way?), the cotton gauze, the group jealousies, etc.  Esp. the 18 styles.  I thought we were missing out on some things!  I think the Chung Ngai troupe has vastly improved because of the conference.  We recently performed a drum exhibition at UC-Berkeley on April 3 using Master Siow's 18 styles (and signals) and it came off wonderfully.  It looks especially cute with all those kids playing the drums!

I would also once again like to acknowledge the professionalism of the entire conference and how well it went.  Much respect should go to David Lei and CPAF SF for putting it all together.

I never noticed the different types of lion dance troupes before.  I saw slight differences when I moved to the Bay Area and noticed all the kung fu schools.  In Houston, there are basically community/special interest troupes (family associations like Lee's Golden Dragon, which is where I started) and Buddhist temple troupes.  That is it!  The kung fu schools are either not interested enough or knowledgable enough to lion dance in Houston.

Female heads and male tails?  I heard that this is a little problematic, esp. considering some of the moves a lion has to perform (like legs wrapped around the waist).  I haven't seen any mixed pairs in a performance - I guess times are changing!

I am glad to hear that we learned all the necessary drumming styles!  I was worried that we would have to invent some styles ourselves.  12 is actually quite a lot to learn in one week but I think we learned it only because Master Siow is such a good teacher.

Concerning Master Siow's heads, I heard some people say that the aluminum frame and pvc handles don't make a big difference.  I also saw what they consider a 'well-made' lion head and it is laden so thick with papier mache reinforcement that it is too heavy to use in a performance.  Of course it will not likely crack as easily, but you have to sacrifice too much weight to do so.  Plus, some traditionalists really like the bouquet of color balls all over the head as well as other delicate, fancy stuff.  I find these details impractical for general use, though.  They would make okay parade lions but you can't use them for choy chang or competition (i.e. 'real' use).

Hey George, I wrote a note to Yip but my program erased it before I could send it!  Tell him I'm sending him another one soon!

I am still working on a transcription for the 18 styles (or 12 now).  Still need to clear up some stuff, first.  Talk to you all later.

Willy Le

In a message dated 4/18/99 3:23:12 PM, huyle@uclink4.berkeley.edu writes:
>I heard some people say that the aluminum frame and pvc handles don't make
>a big difference. I also saw what they consider a 'well-made' lion head
>and it is laden so thick with papier mache reinforcement that it is too
>heavy to use in a performance.

Has anyone ever tried making a lion head from molded plastic?

Dr. Doong Chang

ps: bravo...my hats off to David and everyone in the concept and organizing of the lion dance conference for a job well done.

Hey everybody!

No idea what this HK fundraiser is..I live half way around the world from HK, but my relatives live there and might be able to get them to tape me some and send em over.

Our group is not that advanced. Our group is young, and since the older members can't pick me up on their shoulders or me stand on their legs, we don't got much. Right now we are working on putting a younger member on my legs and shoulders. We have it down ok w/o the lion, but we gotta practice with it now. Still got about 3 months till we preform..many practices left. For the apparatus stuff, my tail and I can basically do jumps on anything vertically or horizontally, if we get a chance to practice it a couple of times. I'm not really sure on the definition of "traditional lion dance", so I don't know if we do it but it looks like we do(hehe). Right now we do a beginning entrance, 3 jumps, 3 bows, improv moves, get cheng, then 3 bows. If anyone can help me with some moves of any kind(even though we might not be able to do it, good to know about it), it would be very appreciated.

This conference everybody is talking about, I would have loved to been there and learned all this exciting techniques. Sounds like ya'll had fun.

-Tim Hong

Hi Tim,

Awwww... You've never seeen them? Where are you from? Is there a Chinese videostore in the chinatown where you live... is there a china town? hehehe...If your team is young and not that advanced... I think I'd be a good idea if you trained them to have a really good horse stance. after that's nice and solid start them off in trying to stand on the tail's legs, under supervision of course. I think one of them main points you should focus on, is the syncronasation, when there heand and the tail walks together at the same time, does a low stance at the same time... stuff like that. It's the little things that make a difference, I see some groups who can do the moves and everything, but the way the head and the tail moves, doesn't look natural, they don't move at the same time, or sometimes one part doesn't move at all. For the moves... hehe, i'll try to describe them, but it'll be a bit difficult, it'd be easier if you saw them.. =) okay... one move is to have the head sit on one of the tail's shoulders. (when i say head or tail, i'm reffering to the person playing the head or tail) Practice having the tail hold the head's sash. have the head jump as high as he/she can. What the tail does is, he/she should learn to time it right, so that when the head jumps the tail is helping the head get more height, enabling the head to go higher. the tail should not be straining to lift the head, if he is, then his timing is off. After the timing is down, have the head jump with the help of the tail, at the highest point of the jump have the tail take on step forward, and pull the head back, having the head land on either his left shoulder or the right. this should be pre determined before the jump occurs. So... let's say that the head lands on the right shoulder. To help the head from sliding off, the head should have his left foot flat against the tail's chest, making a 45 degree angel with his thigh and his leg. And his right leg pointing strait. If the head should be on the left shoulder, then the leg positioning would be the opposite. Keep in mind that the tail should not let go of the head's sash. I'll tell you some other moves later... I'm gonna be late for class... hehehehe.

Jason.

Hi Tim,

See below....

> No idea what this HK fundraiser is..I live half way around the world from
> HK, but my relatives live there and might be able to get them to tape me
> some and send em over.

Neither do I....hihi :-) But share the experience if you ever got any from HK.

> Our group is not that advanced. Our group is young, and since the older
> members can't pick me up on their shoulders or me stand on their legs, we
> don't got much. Right now we are working on putting a younger member on my
> legs and shoulders. We have it down ok w/o the lion, but we gotta practice
> with it now. Still got about 3 months till we preform..many practices left.
> For the apparatus stuff, my tail and I can basically do jumps on anything
> vertically or horizontally, if we get a chance to practice it a couple of
> times. I'm not really sure on the definition of "traditional lion dance",
> so I don't know if we do it but it looks like we do(hehe). Right now we do
> a begining entrance, 3 jumps, 3 bows, improv moves, get cheng, then 3 bows.
> If anyone can help me with some moves of any kind(even though we might not
> be able to do it, good to know about it), it would be very appreciated.

I think your group is in the same situation as mine. We can only do the basic stuff like roll on the ground, spin the head, and sit on shoulder as our advanced moves, but this group now can't even do the roll. The guy who I teach to do the roll keep breaking the ears every time he went down so I did not do that move any more...maybe will pick it up again latter with someone else who won't break the ears perhaps. :-)

Our performance starts and ends like this:
-3 short bow from the outside
-enter the aile to main stage then
-3 long bow (full long bow) usually to the audiance or the stage's altor (if there is any.)
-Then play around for awhile and the lion goes to sleep
-Wakes up and find food (usually eat the li-se and other foods and fruits)
-Does the roll or the spin of the head to show happyness and playful
-eat some more if there is any left overs or more li-se is given (usually we do around 2-6 times of eating because people kept throwing money onto the stage). We tried to clean them up as fast as possible and get out of the stage so the event schedule can go on...ya know...:-)
-Go up on the shoulder to put out a clothe with words wishing what every the occusion is.
-The Buddha took it and show it around then lay it back down
-The lion chew it uu and clean up any fruit or vegetables it happens to throw around during the eating part. (A way of cleaning up after itself - We came in clean, we leave - trying - to be as clean as possible) :-)
-Lion do 3 short bow signaling that it will not exit (audiance applause)
-Lion exit out of the stage....
-Last 3 bow where we started and everything comes to a complete sillence.
-Another round of a plause and the event's schedule continues.

That's a typical performance for a stage settings. We usually have only 10-15 minutes per performance so we can't do very much anyway. Most of our performances are for school and community events. Only during the New Year where we do a lot of our performances for the local businesses.

As you can see, we did not have any special/advance moves in our performance. For the most part was because we didn't know how but if we did, we would definately use it! :-)

Well, what do you guys do for your performance? What does it involve? Something like what we did (maybe with more advanced moves)? I would like to learn from you all to improve my performance too...so please share!

A question about the Hoc Son style: (Gregory Chan maybe you can answer this) 1) How does the Lion Sleep and what/how does the drum beat sounds like? We do a constant roll of the drum and on ocasion the lion is awoken by the Buddha with three abroup sound:

cheng-cheng-cheng-cheng-cheng... (soft and loud alternating)
Teck-Ter-Reck-Ter-Reck CHIT
Teck-Ter-Reck-Ter-Reck CHIT
Teck-Ter-Reck-Ter-Reck CHIT

Then the lion went back to sleep (with the constant rolling drum beat), and this happens 3 times.

2) How does the eating drum beat sounds like and how does the lion eat on the ground?

We use almost the same beat as sleep but but more force:

CHANG-CHANG-CHANG-cheng-cheng-cheng-cheng-cheng-CHANG-CHANG-CHANG-CHANG-cheng-cheng....etc..

How do you guys do it with Phat Son style liondancing (that's the style we play).

Well, I guess that's enough for one message...We will share some more latter....

Have a great day!

Dvo

Hi,

> I think your group is in the same situation as mine. We can only do the
> basic stuff like roll on the ground, spin the head, and sit on shoulder
> as our advanced moves, but this group now can't even do the roll. The guy
> who I teach to do the roll keep breaking the ears every time he went down
> so I did not do that move any more...maybe will pick it up again latter
> with someone else who won't break the ears perhaps. :-)

We've never really had that problem. I think it's how you posistion the head when you do the roll. In my opinion the best way to avoid breaking some ears is rest the back rim of the lion head on the back of your neck, this way your shoulders and your back are protruding furthur than the back of the lion head. This way when your roll, the only thing touching the floor is your back and maybe a little bit of the rim.

> Our performance starts and ends like this:

For our Performance, we usually use a pole stage. We have 3 different ones. We have one stage with the poles about 3.1/2 feet off the ground and the other ones are 9 and 12 feet. If we're doing a small show such as a fundraiser or a demo for a school or something we'll use the small stage. Sometimes we won't even use it and do a basic floor routine. our routines are usually 2 lions.

-(houng kewn hoi lye) Our kung fu bow before getting in under the lion
-Sleep
-wake up and wash the eyes, ears, mouth, and nose.
-get up and wash both sides of the tail
-3 bows
-(Hey see) The lion's happy.. (our derminology hehehe... )
-the 2 lions meet each other
-3 small bows to each other
-wash each other's backs
-happy again
-play with the monk
-look for the greens
-aproch 3 times
-eat it on the third
-eat then spit it out
-happy
-upper flip
-roll
-chase the tail
-3 final bows

Sometimes we'll use some of the pole routine moves on the floor routines. For example we'll improvise to get the greens. On the poles to get the greens we're uaully standing on one pole and the head is standing on the tails thighs which are closed together, the head will kinda squat and reach the greens, sometimes we'll do that for the floor routines. It looks more impressive on the poles.

> cheng-cheng-cheng-cheng-cheng... (soft and loud alternating)
> Teck-Ter-Reck-Ter-Reck CHIT
> Teck-Ter-Reck-Ter-Reck CHIT
> Teck-Ter-Reck-Ter-Reck CHIT
> CHANG-CHANG-CHANG-cheng-cheng-cheng-cheng-cheng-CHANG-CHANG-CHANG-CHANG-
> cheng-cheng....etc..

Hehehehehehehe... you should make a .WAV of it or something...

Jason