
Extremely Ignorant wyling sun,
Wes Cameron

Hi,
Jason - saw the movie - pretty good. Your Lions looked great!
Does anyone know which Lion Dance Group(s) were in 1.Tiger Claws 2 and 2. a few episodes of Kung Fu the legend continues. I believe they were shot in Toronto.
'Kam' - Wes Cameron

Guys, guys, guys....
There has been a principle on the internet for a long time (and I can say this from experience, having been on the net since 1980) that off-topic discussions go private. Since the net has opened up, the "traditional" rules aren't followed as well, but they are still good rules.
Long off-topic discussions tend to bore or annoy list members, do nothing to further the goal of the list, and are general unproductive for list members as a whole... especially when the get personal. Ultimately, they erode the quality of the list. You may think you are saving face by replying on the list, but you're not. You're just annoying people.
Of course, it's fine to have brief exchanges, but the whole terminology and lo-fan stuff has gone on way too long. Interesting in the beginning, it's time for the list to move on.
Can those still interested in discussing the topic (or trading insults, as the case may be) please take it private instead of sharing it with everybody else? And can we all agree with this protocol?
Thanks,
--Chris.
Christopher Yau Choy Young

Hi,
Thanks, we worked really hard. I think the group that was in Kung Fu, is "Hong lok" or "Tung wah"... I'm not too sure though.
Jason

>yes...let's burry this lo fahn stuff...let's just call
>chinaman chinaman....bok gwai's lof an
What is going on here? Chris, Serhat...can we do something about this kind of posting? (hint: rhymes with "schmilter") Nobody's going to gain anything from this kind of posting. Nobody will learn anything either, except about the people that post this kind of message. This is not the reason why this list was created, and is not the reason why people volunteer and work so hard to maintain it for everyone.
If someone intelligent sees this kind of posting on the list, they just might decide that their knowledge and time could be better used elsewhere. Postings like this can ruin a good thing for everyone. Stop it.
Corey

Hi Jason,
Yes, I bet it was a lot of work, considering how long it takes to choreograph a short martial art sequence in a movie. How did it come to be that your group was chosen to be in the movie?
Wes Cameron

Hi Wes,
I've been registered at a talent agency here in Montreal for a while now and I was chosen to be a regular extra in the movie. In the application form there was a spot for "other talents", I had put in Martial arts and Lion/dragon dance. There's an asian theme in this movie, having something to do with China and North korean trade agreements and having them go to the UN too negociate... etc.. Anyways, they were looking for a Lion Dance team for the opening scene... My agent had suggested to the assistant Director to speak to me about it because she knew I had that listed lion dance in my portfolio. So, he spoke to me about it... asked for a video of a performance. Then I told him to speak to my sifu, and then one thing lead to another... we ended up getting the movie deal. We spent 32 hours filming a 15 minute scene where they cut and edited it and ended up using bits and pieces... which added up to about 30 seconds to a minute...
Jason

Please excuse my extremely ignorant son for his misbehavior on this list. I shall discipline him with extreme predjudice...
Dr. Doong Chang

Hi guys,
>results for the Oakland Competition:
>3rd: Oakland AYSC
>2nd: O Mei Academy
>1st: Marin Culture Center
Congrads to Greg Chuck and the Marin Culture Center!!
George,
Malaysia

Hi Jason,
32 hours - wow, long time, was that over several days, how long on average did you have to be on the set per day?
Hi Dr. Chang,
The problems of parenting! Thanks for you reply.
Wes Cameron

Hi Wes,
Hehehe, it was pretty grueling... 32 hours in 2 days. We started the both days at 3pm, and finished 7am the next day...
Jason

Why did Macau, Hong Kong did the same exact routine as Kun Seng Kung team C and same exact everything else? that is so boring and not fun to watch. kun seng kung team A, Khuan Loke, taiwan, and the other Macau(yellow lion) seem to have the more interesting ones of the finalists. what's with the trend of a purple drum? what's going to be next? rainbow drums?
Albert

I dont understand? What are you explaining about??
Daniel Low

one of the macau teams, the hong kong team did the SAME exact routine as kun seng kung team C. they also used the same matching lion head. I thought it was a bad thing because its no fun watching the same routine being done again 3 times. there's no creativity in that.I was also wondering about the use of purple drums the competition. when did this started up? I also pointed out Khuan Loke of Malaysia , The other Macau team(the one with the yellow lion), Kun Seng Kung team A and Taiwan had good routines to watch.
albert

http://vietnamnews.vnagency.com.vn/2000-02/02/Stories/22.htm
its an article including the Vietnamese Lion Dance team that competed at genting in 98.
albert

Hi,
The reason why Macau and Hong Kong Lion Dance team did almost the same routine is because they both did there training under Sifu Siow, Not to mention the Head player for Kun Seng team C coaches the Indonesia team. Team C and A are both disciples of Sifu, so most of there routine is made up on there own. As for the purple drum, most of the teams in Genting used the same drum due to not shipping there own. To you it might have been boring to watch, but you had to be there to experience the hard work , effort and commaderie each team had for each other.

Hi Albert,
As you know, most of the competition teams uses Sifu Siow heads. I would say 90%, while the rest either Meng kok or China heads. If you look carefully at both Kun Seng team-C and Hong Kong's Lion, they are both the same color (silver) but the design are quite different in color. Hong Kong's nose and horn are pink with pink and white pom poms, as Team -C is the normal green nose and horn.

Yes I am aware of the colors and difference between their heads. I know those team worked hard as all the teams did. I was just dissappointed. I'm going to be seeing repeat routines on vcd. training under sifu siow, it would be understandable using his techniques and his way in lion dancing, but it would've been better if they took some of their own creative thinking into making their routine. that way they can show more variety in competition. Team A, made up their own routine, Khuan Loke(also disciples of sifu siow) made one up, hong kong and macacu should've done the same to increase the competativness of the event(although its already pretty high). Maybe i should made myself clearer. It was boring the watch the routine being performed 3 times although im AWare that routine is demanding. its kun seng keng's routine, of course it'll be demanding.
Albert

Hi guys,
Lately I've been really interested in learning about the VN lion dance troupe you are talking about: Nhon Nghia Duong, from Saigon. Remember how you mentioned they were featured in a Discover Vietnam tape? I bought Discover Vietnam 2, which talks about Lunar New Year, and there was a long feature segment on the troupe. They've been around since 1937, and are the largest and most famous troupe in Vietnam. The tape showed footage from their 60th anniversary, their training (lots of kids doing crazy stunts!), and some shots of their lion/dragon factory.
A lot of tapes on lion dancing from Vietnam are out there in the Vietnamese video stores. Although the information value is not the best, it's just kinda interesting to see how the Vietnamese (or Chinese in Vietnam) treat lion dancing. Discover Vietnam 2 is worth the $8 I paid. I bought another tape for $8 that had this Chinese team from Vietnam demonstrating lion, dragon, norther lion, flag, and prop performances. The beginning had footage of a bunch of lions on the beach (I think Albert already mentioned this). I forgot what the tape was called but this team strictly used the Chinese/Vietnamese style of lion dancing (steel gong and all).
Willy

I want to get that discover vietnam tape. what's the cover like? the vietnamese video/book store across my house became a music/toy store. go figure. i have to find time to go to one. how's the tape like willy?
Albert Le

For those in states that have ordered them, what was your total cost overall for one of his heads? inlcude the shipping and all the taxes. also is there a way to get the shoes too? And is it possible to order extra pants? Does sifu siow's trade company make drums and gongs? all the gongs i've found don't have the bong of the gongs his team use. they have the BOANG sound. i have a gong from jonie's(to give an idea of what it sounds like if you have one from them).
Albert

Albert,
All of Sifu Siow's Drums and gongs are hand picked from the factory in China. You may order one from him although i dont know how much he charges. As for his heads, you can purchase one around $600. depending on design (laser or regular paint) shipping runs you $200. and transportation from the factory and shipping dock has to be arranged with Sifu (cost is up to him) for customs, you have to check with your port. If you place an order with Sifu and need it by a certain date, make sure you give him some time. The last time I was up there at the factory it was very very busy with order's from around the world. In fact somtimes you might be put on a waiting list, depending on how many heads you are ordering.Bao-on (team A) Kun Seng head player, is know as the best Fat-San head player. That's why he's routine is always different from team C (Hok-San) style. As of next year, team A will be retireing from competition.

Those teams used Team-C routine because they are unbeatable in competition, as you know they have won the Genting a record 4th time. Khuan Loke, is getting recognition now since they gave Team-C a run for there money. And just think that Khuan Loke didnt even use there full routine during the competition.

Doesn't sifu siow use air shipping? I remember Geoff saying something like that. I need the costs in numbers. How much would it cost to get it to the bay area? Can Any body from West Coast answer this? or did you guys buy his heads from jonie's? I'm trying determine if jonie's is cheaper or buying directly from sifu, including all the custom taxes, shipping etc is cheaper.
Albert

Hi all,
I'm currently in Singapore (Lion City) for the week and just happened to notice that Ngee An City, a major shopping center on Orchard Road, is having a Lion Dance contest this week.
It's free to the public and the first day was yesterday. I only got to see three teams perform and if anyone is interested following is a quick review.
Singapore is serious about their lion dance competitions. The area is outdoors and large enough for a covered grandstand and two full pole configurations similar to the ones at Genting. I've never seen the set up for genting but I imagine it's similar. Maybe someone who has been to Genting can give a similar report or compare. The entire courtyard is huge and was packed with people watching the show. They had three large projection screens so people could see.
Two teams come out and set up their poles. They test them and make adjustments. When both are done (or is it a time limit), then one team will perform, score given, the second team performs, score given and two more teams come and set up.
The competition started at 7:30pm and we arrived at 10:00pm and stayed till 11:00pm. I saw three teams. The first team was a young group and the lion fell MANY times (at least three that I saw). The guys were brave because they kept getting back up and eventually finished the show. The crowd was very supportive and cheered them on as they continued. One of the falls was particularly nasty but they appeard OK and eventually finished the show.
The next team was from Singapore (sorry, I can't remember the names and I didn't get a program) and was much better. They did a routine worthy of Genting. They had an all yellow lion (skin and fur) in the Hoc Shan style. The head seemed bigger then a Master Siow head. (proportionately)
The third team was also from Singapore (I don;t know if they all are) and had a mianly black lion with yellow fur in the fut shan style. It looked a Master Siow head but it had this multi-faceted reflector for the mirror. This was the best team I saw. They did some long multi-pole jump routines.
They also were very animated with the lion which I enjoy. Their music seemed to be Hoc Shan style with some Fut shan thrown in. I'm not sure how well they scored since they had once obvious loss of balance but they recovered without falling. The only thing I remembered from their name is that it had something pugilist dragon and lion dance team.
I wish I could have stayed longer but my daughter and wife needed to get back to the hotel. I might go out there again this week. I think the finals are on the 10th.
I did notice that there were alot of make shift alters in the street. Is that normal? We never bai san before a performance but again this was a competition. Do the lions participate or is this just peformers?
Anyways, if I get more info, I'll share it.
Stephen

Yo, movie star!!! ^^
What you guys talking about is really interesting, heheheee... So Jason, what's the movie title? I'll try to find and watch it, specially.. humm... the waiter huh? :) You are a drummer, Jason? I thought you said you were a liondancer. OK, nice to hear your team were movied, ciao!
Vela

Hey Albert
The tape is pretty good. The title is "Te^'t Nguye^n +Da'n VN", so not just footage on Nho*n Nghi~a +Du*o*`ng, however. The cover has two ladies in ao' da`i, and below them a red lion with some guys wearing village clothing. It's Discover Vietnam 2. Check it out. Oh, it's all in Vietnamese, though, so I don't know if every member on this list will find it useful.
Willy

Hi guys,
Macau actually did not do the exact same routine, but Hong Kong sure did. I guess the other mail answer why that is the case. Not being disrespectful, it is difficult to plan for a good routine, so it is much easier just to copy even though it would be very difficult for the copying team to outdo the original. KSK C's routine has been set since 1996 (I think) and so it was available for many to see and copy. I agree it is a bit boring for the audience, but for judges it is a good/easier way to compare each team. Khuan Loke's routine was also devise by Master Siow and he purposely made it different to KSK. Actual, the best way is to devise a rotine that best suit the dancers and I think Master Siow did just that for Khuan Loke. Unfortunately, as I said, it is difficult to device a good routine. It is true that Kuan Loke did not do their full routine because they wanted to play it safe.
The 'purple' drum is actually KSK's drum unlit. Everybody seem to have it because KSK lent it to everybody, but without lighting it. KSK also lent their poles (fully decorated) and the 'drum stage'(v.expensive!)Khuan Loke also lent their stuff too (the brown cloth decorated poles, etc.). It is good they did this as it saved a lot of expenses and trouble for the foreign teams, and will make competiting overseas(or over long journey) much more viable. Our team was lucky enough to been able to borrowed KSK's stuff for last years Malaysian Nationals, so all we did was just brought over our own lion heads.
As for the drumming or decoration trends, I guess it started when decoration was awarded points in the competition. It became very expensive as the decoration got more and more complicated, and sometime costs more than the lion heads and even the poles! Some night think this is a waste but I think it is good as it improves the audience apreciation of a performance.
That's all from me folks. Greg & Willy, I will answer your mails latter as I will be at a competition on Saturday.
George,
Malaysia

Hi Vela,
It's called "The Art of War". Yeah, I was the drummer in the Lion dance scene... You can hear it a bit. and I was a waiter in another scene.
Jason

Thanks to everyone on this thread. Very informative.
I also have a question. In the clips on the web, I see two lions stacked next to the drums. What are they doing there? Was it part of the early routine or is it just part of the decorations. Do they come down after each performance? It seems I saw them on a few of them.
Stephen

I saw another day of the competition. This time I saw two ground shows. No stacking even. One did a sleeping lion and a chang. Very traditional. The other did Lion enters a cave.
Since I'm from a traditional school, it was nice to see this kind of performance. I don't know Hoc San traditions so some of the things seemed a little off. One strange thing, the cave show was a Fat san head but Hoc san music and movements.
Saw some more pole work and this one team did alot of spinning stacks. Very cool. The head was very strong and did a lot of one legged stances with beard and pawing motions. Unfortunatly, I think the tail was not as strong because he fell and dragged the head on top of him. He also lost his balance a few times.
I apologize that I can't get the names of these teams and I didn't see any programs. Lots of fun though.
Stephen

I am an ignorant novice--what does "Fat san" and "Hoc san" mean, and how do these terms relate to lion dancing such as Stephen's comment, "Fat san head but Hoc san music?"
chuck

That sounds interesting. Were there teasers at the traditional dances as well? Did they have much to do with the routine? I've heard that there's a lot they used to do, but I haven't seen many parts of the acts they do.
Geoff

Hey Everyone,
Couple of things that came across my mind in light of the submissions this past month:
1) Same routine in competition...
Would'nt it be cool to have a competition where the poles are set in advance and uniform for all teams, and the competition rules still apply, but there'd be an additional points category for originality/creativity? Only the teams who competed would only be allowed to view the rest of the competition and the teams who didn't compete shouldn't be allowed to view the competition otherwise it'll give them unfair planning. There will be a separate identical setup in another room for a "walkthrough" so the competitors won't endager themselves with unfamiliarity of the setup. They would be allowed in the "walkthrough" prior to their competing time.
2) Traditional floor show vs. competition-style lion dancing...
The advantage of the competition-style lion dancing is the fact that it's peaking interest of lion dancing among those who weren't exposed to the art of lion dancing. Do you think that the movement towards the competition-style may cause an abandonement of the floor-style that's been passed on for the past 3-5 generation? Should there be a separtate category in competition for this type of lion dancing in order to preserve the "old style(i.e. 7 star, bucket, ect)?"
3) Art of War
I haven't caught it yet, i'm still on the last topic of movies in here in regards to Year of the Dragon (released in 85 with Mickey Roarke & John Lone) who were the teams of lion dancing in the openning scene, and how accurate was that meeting of the lions and fighting sequence?
Thanx for letting me ramble...
-Jj

Hey Chuck,
Check out this page in my website for my brief explanation of the two styles: http://www.stas.net/liondance/inspiration.html
Best,
Willy
