Indefectibility: Roman Or Papal? Part II
'THE RADIO REPLIES' of Fathers Rumble & Carty, (1942; Vol. III, Question 338 on page 83).
A.: The Primacy will always be attached to the episcopal See of Rome. The diocese of Rome, therefore, will never be destroyed nor suppressed. Despite any possible political changes, there will always be some faithful Christians in the diocese of Rome, and the Pope will be their bishop. The true "Eternal Rome," to use a popular expression, is not political Rome, but the Rome of Saint Peter and of his successors; in other words, perpetuity belongs to ecclesiastical Rome, whatever political changes the centuries may bring.
All Roads Lead To Rome
Following the Great Schism commenced by A. J. Roncalli since 10th October, 1958, and consummated by the Robber Council ‘Vatican II’ - the Anti-Pentecost of the Modernist heretics, the faithful everywhere have been cast into great confusion as how to achieve the restoration of the lawful order. But in all this tumult, no one, it seems, sought out the Remnant in Rome, the lawful Roman Church and sought its guidance.
This is what I wish to point out, by pointing out this requirement as laid out be the Teaching Church in its various documents, especially this Document.
Who knows but that the Church of Rome, in union with those faithful who submitted to its authority, has not already solved this problem caused by the Great Schism of the Modernist klepts, and that the true Church is not already back up and running, with a lawful Pope at its’ head, albeit scorned and ignored by all. Indeed, when we reflect on the matter, it seems obvious that the Roman Church, being seized of the urgency of the matter and of its grievous responsibility, would have gone ahead and solved it already, without waiting for the laggards to catch up with it.
If this is so, all that we need to do is to submit to this the true Church that we may be saved.
But even if this were not yet achieved, it is still necessary for all who wish to be saved that they find out the Remnant Roman Church, whose survival is guaranteed by the constant teaching of the Magisterium, submit to it and assist it toward this end.
CHURCH-OCCULTED THEORY
Is the Church Occulted? Two of the many theories being bandied about in the Resistance about the Church are the 'Dormition' and 'Death & Resurrection' Theories. They are similar.
One suggests that the true Church is now in a death like sleep, while the other suggests that it is dead. Both envisage a awakening up or 'glorious ressurection' one day.
I reject these theories because they both violate the constant teaching of the Church that it will survive for all days without interruption for the salvation of souls until the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Nevertheless, I wish to suggest a similar sounding theory as the present location of the true Church of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Household of God.
First of all, I would like to share these quotations which have a direct bearing on this issue. These are:
Now, following the teaching of the last General Council of the Church, the Holy Council of the Vatican held in 1870, I teach that the Holy Roman Church, as distinct from the entire Church Militant, possesses Primacy over the entire Church and also Indefectibility, and also that it has probably already acted in exercise of its Primacy to restore the Church, by which I mean, principally the Papacy.
However, after this, the question of why it cannot be seen arises. We must keep in mind the constant teaching of the Church, such as for example the quotations given and therefore reject the Dormition or Death & Resurrection Theories out of hand.
However, there is still another possibility.
We must remember, first of all, that there exists a vital connexion between the Freemasonic States of the West, particularly of Italy, and the Modernist klepts that comprise the official Antichurch presently resident in the Vatican premises.
The Ungodly West has gone to a lot of trouble to destroy Christendom and revive Soddom and Gommorah, and will not allow a dissident group of Catholics to sabotage its project of co-opting and remaking the Church into the vehicle of all its monstrousities.
There is also an official, legal agreement, a concordat, between the Freemasonic government of Italy, and the Antichurch which makes it the official religion of sorts of Italy, to the exclusion, especially, of any other rival, such as the True Church would be.
Therefore, the Church situate in Rome, would be legally proscribed, thus being denied legal expression.
Such a situation also existed during pre-Constantinian Rome, the first age of the Roman Church.
Therefore, like then, the Church, if its does already exist restored, will be known only confidentially and not publicly.
I call this theory the 'Church Occulted' Theory.
John Lane
You are right in almost everything you say (although you really ought to use the Douai Rheims Bible for quotes - especially in your signature!).
The Roman Church is, in itself, indefectible, which means she cannot cease to be what she is. That is, she cannot change in any essential.
The office of the papacy is perpetual, and therefore cannot and does not cease to exist, until the end of time.
The pope, as possessor of the office of "Bishop of Rome", possesses the headship of the Roman Diocese, which is the Church of Rome. That Church is, as stated, indefectible.
When it is stated that the Roman Catholic Church, the Universal Church, is indefectible, this means that she is indefectible in the Roman Church - the local Church of Rome - for it is certainly possible for all other local churches to lose the faith, but not for Rome herself to do so.
When a pope resides elsewhere, he still possesses the office of "Bishop of Rome" and the members of the diocese of Rome are his subjects. This is known as non-residence.
Non-residence for any office-holder is a grave abuse, but most especially for the Roman Pontiff.
But it does not mean that the Roman Diocese "moves" with the pope. The office does, but not the subject(s) of that office.
So, it is certainly possible for the true pope to live elsewhere, and even to be elected, reign, and die, without ever setting foot in Rome. But it would not be good.
Certainly such a situation could not occur without at least some of the Roman Clergy adhering to him, because it is the Roman Clergy who are his electors, and without true electors he could not truly be pope.
As for your distinction between "sedevacantism" and your own theory, I am lost as to what constitutes it. We certainly do not hold that it is sufficient to declare the See vacant. We wish to see a Roman Pontiff in Rome. We see this as an urgent matter. What we will not do is presume that God has deigned to place the solution in our hands.
I am a layman, and a terrible sinner. I have no place electing popes.
However I agree that the Roman situation is a vital one, and anything which can shed light on the situation there is most valuable.
If you know Italian, you could write to Fr. Ricossa, in Italy (Institute of Our Mother of Good Counsel). He and his fellow-priests say a fortnightly mass in Rome, so he would be aware of the situation there to some extent.
He does not speak or read English, although he does know French.
Yours in JMJ, John Lane.
PS Our Lady of La Salette said that "Rome will lose the faith and become the seat of antichrist." This must be understood as meaning that to all appearances this would happen, not that Rome could ever truly lose the faith. She also said that the Church would be eclipsed.