|
Page 2.
| INDEX |
|
| DEFENSE EVIDENCE |
| WITNESS |
DE |
CE |
RDE |
RCE |
| Dessie Hightower |
16 |
28 |
85 |
103 |
| Det. William Thomas, Ret. |
110 |
194 |
196 |
-- |
| Deborah Kordansky |
201 |
250 |
251,255 |
253 |
EXHIBITS
| DEFENSE EXHIBITS |
| NO. |
DESCRIPTION |
PAGE |
| 16 |
Investigation record (Hightower) |
19 |
| 17 |
Investigation record (Howard) |
160 |
| 18 |
Investigation record (Nelms) |
162 |
| 19 |
Investigation record (Officer Schu) |
174 |
| 20 |
Investigation record (Kordansky) |
206 |
| 21 |
Investigation record (Kordansky) |
218 |
| COMMONWEALTH EVIDENCE |
| 11 |
Investigation record (Hightower) |
53 |
| 12 |
Polygraph Exam Pre-test background |
53 |
| 13 |
Polygraph Examination Report |
53 |
| 14 |
Polygraph questions |
53 |
| 15 |
Polygraph Examination Agreement |
53 |
Page 3.
- - - - - -
(At l1:15 a.m. the hearing was convened in
the presence
of the Court and the attorneys.)
- - - - - -
THE COURT: Good morning, everyone.
MR. WEINGLASS: May it please the Court: Today is August
3rd, which means that there's two weeks, or 14 days, to August 17th, which
is the date of execution under the warrant signed by the Governor. We have
made earlier motions for a stay which were deferred. At this time on
behalf of Mr. Jamal I renew the motion for a stay of the date of
execution.
MR. GRANT: Your Honor, based on the witness list
submitted by the defense, this proceeding is nearly complete. I don't see
why on the eve of completion Your Honor has to make a ruling that's
already been held in abeyance, and that taking it under advisement has
been affirmed by the Supreme Court and they ordered that had these
proceedings take place. And I assume when they ordered it to take place
they didn't mean to take place up until the penultimate day of conclusion,
but to take place
Page 4.
until conclusion, and thereafter they would reconsider, or Your Honor
would reconsider.
And I ask you to abide by the order from the Supreme
Court, and Your Honor's own dictates, and complete this evidence. I would
suspect that at the latest the defense will be resting on Monday morning,
and probably as soon as tomorrow. That being the case, I don't see any
reason to entertain this motion at this time.
THE COURT: All right, it is still held in abeyance.
MR. WEINGLASS: I'm sorry, I didn't hear it.
THE COURT: I am still holding it in abeyance, okay.
MR. WEINGLASS: I'm sorry, Your Honor. I can only hear the air
conditioner.
THE COURT: I don't know, do you want to go to the seventh
floor? You will be able to hear better there.
MR. WEINGLASS: Am I being invited to the seventh floor? My Co-counsel
was there yesterday.
THE COURT: They have courtrooms up
Page 5.
there.
MR. WEINGLASS: Oh, courtrooms.
THE COURT: Forget it, Mr. Weinglass. Forget it.
MR. WEINGLASS: All right.
THE COURT: My previous order still holds.
MR. WEINGLASS: But Your Honor didn't make an order, you deferred the
order.
THE COURT: Well, that's what I am still deferring.
MR. WEINGLASS: But, Your Honor, there is 14 days.
THE COURT: I know. I can count.
MR. WEINGLASS: Right.
THE COURT: I went to school too, you know. I know what
August 3rd is, I know what August 17th is. I have a calendar.
MR. WEINGLASS: But it's impossible for this proceeding to be completed
and as the Court --
THE COURT: I don't know that. I don't know that.
MR. WEINGLASS: If the Court will please bear with me. And the Court
has
Page 6.
indicated on the record that you anticipate, no matter
what your decision, that this matter will have to be reviewed, or will be
reviewed.
THE COURT: That's right.
MR. WEINGLASS: By the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania.
THE COURT: Absolutely.
MR. WEINGLASS: And as a jurist you know full well that
that review will not be completed and cannot be completed.
THE COURT: I understand.
MR. WEINGLASS: In 14 days.
THE COURT: Counselor, I understand all of that, okay. And
I told you don't worry about it. I know when the 17th is coming. And if I
don't know, I'm sure the Supreme Court knows.
MR. WEINGLASS: But, Your Honor, in order for --
THE COURT: Counselor, please. I have heard your argument.
Please. Let's proceed with your witnesses that you have for today.
MR. WEINGLASS: I want to inform the Court of one other thing in
relation to the argument.
Page 7.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. WEINGLASS: We are this afternoon on behalf of Mr.
Jamal filing a petition in the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania seeking a
stay.
THE COURT: Counselor, I can't stop you from doing
anything you want to do. If the Supreme Court wants to entertain it,
that's up to them.
MR. WEINGLASS: Right. I want to inform --
THE COURT: I can't dictate to the Supreme Court. You do whatever you
think you have to do, okay.
MR. WEINGLASS: I'm asking you not to dictate, but to assist the Supreme
Court since I have to --
THE COURT: They don't need my assistance, believe me they
don't. They know how to count too. Better than I do. They don't need my
assistance.
MR. WEINGLASS: In order for us to apply to the Supreme
Court of Pennsylvania, I have to make representations to that Court as to
whether or not this Court has denied the stay. So I ask the Court to
indicate on the record
Page 8.
what it's --
THE COURT: You tell them exactly what I said. I told you I was not
denying the stay.
MR. WEINGLASS: And you are not granting the stay.
THE COURT: And I am not granting it. I am not denying it,
I am not granting it. I am taking it under advisement, okay.
MR. WEINGLASS: Okay.
THE COURT: Let's get your next witness.
MR. WEINGLASS: I would. There are several matters that I
have to put on the record and my witness is here.
Yesterday the defense received from the Court
Administration three volumes of transcripts from the pre-trial proceedings
in 1982. We have not had an opportunity to fully review them. We note
there are matters of substance in them which we did not previously know.
One of the items is that Mr. McGill on April 1st moved for an order to
remove the addresses, not the names, the addresses and telephone numbers
of all of the witnesses that the Commonwealth was interviewing. We did
not
Page 9.
know until yesterday afternoon at a quick glance at that
volume that it was done in that manner. So as we're reviewing these
transcripts of 1982, proceeding at the same time in this Court, we are now
advised that another volume, of another hearing date, March 18th, 1982,
will be provided to us in the middle of next week.
And so given the fact that we are proceeding in a PCRA
without having the record of the trial below available, I ask this Court
to continue these proceedings so that we may review the pre-trial record
of the earlier trial and then after review of that record we will file an
amended petition reciting facts that are contained in that record. We
cannot do that as of now because we don't have the volumes. So I ask the
Court to grant the continuance until we get the full set, which I'm told
we'll have in the middle of next week, and then we will file an amended
petition.
MR. GRANT: Your Honor, to call these pages volumes is I
think something like hyperbole. We know what those volumes are because you
gave them those volumes about three days ago, and they consist of volumes
of about
Page 10.
four or five pages each. There is no secret that they
were without the names and addresses of the witnesses, because they put it
in their affidavit which they signed back in May of 1995. They are now
getting copies of what they already read. It doesn't take a lot of
research but because he says the names are missing, now we find out it was
by Court order, and now we know it was not a discretionary, arbitrary and
capricious act by the D.A., but a considered opinion by the Court who
exercised discretion.
The only thing we are missing is a volume of 3-18-82. And
you read to them from the transcript docket exactly what transpired on
that date. It is not substantive. The Quarter Session File is the official
record. It has been moved into evidence and they know precisely what it
entails. I would ask Your Honor to proceed.
MR. WEINGLASS: Your Honor, please, I don't think the Court read the
entire docket of March 18th.
THE COURT: Well, you could look at it. All it says is that Mr. McGill
filed certain papers.
Page 11.
MR. WEINGLASS: There were a number of motions referred to.
THE COURT: I know, but he filed them. He just filed them
and they made a record that he filed them. There was no hearing on it
until later on.
MR. WEINGLASS: Well, Your Honor wasn't the Judge. And I wasn't
there.
THE COURT: I know that.
MR. WEINGLASS: And this is no way to litigate: On guesswork.
THE COURT: It is not guesswork.
MR. WEINGLASS: We should have the document.
THE COURT: How could I give you a document that doesn't exist?
MR. WEINGLASS: Exactly.
THE COURT: Well, because the Court Officer here only put
in the fact that somebody filed a paper. It's like when you file a
complaint, they say complaint filed.
MR. WEINGLASS: How could I protect Mr. Jamal's rights when I don't have
the record?
THE COURT: You have the records, Counsel.
Page 12.
MR. WEINGLASS: I do not have March 18th and I just received the four
others.
MR. GRANT: May we proceed, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, let's proceed.
MR. WEINGLASS: I would want to point out the Court
yesterday asked us to file an amended petition.
THE COURT: Counselor.
MR. WEINGLASS: And we will be --
THE COURT: I don't have to tell you what to do. You do
whatever you think you have a right to do. Do it. Don't ask for my
permission. Do whatever you want. If you think --
MR. WEINGLASS: We will be filing an amended petition but
because we are involved in these proceedings, we will not be able --
THE COURT: Well, you had 10 lawyers here when you started
out. Give it to one of those others. You have three or four lawyers here.
Give it to one of the other lawyers.
MR. WEINGLASS: The Court is mis characterizing what's visible in the
Courtroom.
Page 13.
THE COURT: Well, I can't help it if one of your attorneys is
missing.
MR. WEINGLASS: There are two lawyers in the Courtroom.
THE COURT: Well, two of them are missing.
MR. WEINGLASS: Pardon?
THE COURT: Two are missing. I don't know where they are.
MR. WEINGLASS: All right, I will tell you where they are.
One is out interviewing a witness and the other one is working on research
which the Court ordered yesterday afternoon, plus an amended petition
which the Court invited yesterday morning. Plus a stay in the Pennsylvania
Supreme Court, which we are doing while we are right here in Court with
the trial lawyers.
THE COURT: Fine, but in the meantime, Counsel, in the
meantime you said you were going to have three witnesses today: Kordansky,
Hightower and Thomas. Let's proceed with that. Let the other lawyers do
what they have to do. You do what you have to do.
MR. WEINGLASS: Well, Your Honor, I'm
Page 14.
asking for time so that we can perfect this proceeding.
THE COURT: No time. You are here now, let's proceed with these
witnesses.
MR. WEINGLASS: We are not --
THE COURT: You could have plenty of time maybe later on.
But right now we are all here, we're all gathered here. We didn't come
here just for nothing. We came here because you told me that you were
going to have three witnesses today. Let's start with those three
witnesses.
MR. WEINGLASS: And the Court is denying a continuance?
THE COURT: Right, absolutely.
MR. WEINGLASS: Okay.
THE COURT: I don't know how many times I have to tell you that.
MR. WEINGLASS: One other thing I wanted to make note of.
Yesterday afternoon in the midst of this hearing photographs were taken of
physical evidence with the assistance of representatives of the District
Attorney's Office. Those photographs will be developed and they are going
to be examined by an expert
Page 15.
probably on Monday of next week. And I am just putting
the Court on notice that while we are here in Court proceeding, we are
also filing amended petitions, we are also preparing petitions to the
Supreme Court, we are photographing evidence. We are trying to get the
photographs to experts. We do not have an opportunity to present our case
in full under these circumstances.
THE COURT: Well, Kordansky, Hightower and Thomas. Let's get them on.
Let's go.
MR. WEINGLASS: The Petitioner calls Dessie Hightower.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WEINGLASS: While we are waiting for Mr. Hightower, we
could use the few minutes. There is one matter, we provided Counsel and
the Court with an indication that we would like to call witness Ward
Churchill. And Mr. Churchill, we represent, is an expert in the area of
domestic surveillance by law enforcement, particularly the working
relationship between the FBI and Philadelphia Police Department. We just
wanted to indicate to the Court we will be calling Mr. Churchill.
Page 16.
Dessie Hightower - Direct
MR. GRANT: We have a response, Your Honor, but we will reserve it until
they actually call this so-called witness.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. GRANT: Thank you.
- - - - -
Dessie Hightower, having been duly
sworn, was examined
and testified as follows:
- - - - -
DIRECT EXAMINATION
- - - - -
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Hightower.
A. Good morning, gentlemen.
Q. Are you appearing here today pursuant to subpoena?
A. Yes, I am.
MR. WEINGLASS: Could the microphone...
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Mr. Hightower, what is your present occupation and employment?
A. Caterer.
Q. Are you a caterer here in the City of Philadelphia?
Page 17.
Dessie Hightower - Direct
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Drawing your attention back to the end of the month of
June 1982: Do you recall appearing as a witness in the trial of
Commonwealth versus Jamal?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Were you called by the District Attorney's Office or were you called
by the defense in that case?
A. Defense.
Q. And you did take the stand, did you not, and testify?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Do you recall who it was who asked you the questions initially?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And who questioned you in the Courtroom initially?
A. Tony Jackson.
Q. Do you need a glass of water?
A. No, I'm fine.
Q. Did you meet with Mr. Jackson before you took the stand to
testify?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Now, prior to giving testimony in Court, were you interviewed by
representatives of the police
Page 18.
Dessie Hightower - Direct
department?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall on how many occasions?
A. Two or three times.
Q. Were you also interviewed by an investigator for the defense?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And was his name Robert Greer?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. And to your knowledge, did he tape record you?
A. I believe so but I can't actually remember. I believe so, yeah.
Q. Now directing your attention to your first interview
with the police: Was that on the night of the shooting, December 9th.
A. That morning, yes.
Q. That morning?
A. It was the a.m.
Q. And do you recall where that occurred?
A. Ahh, I don't know what's... I'm, ahh, I'm not quite sure.
Q. That night when you were interviewed, or early morning
when you were interviewed by the police, did you indicate to them that you
saw someone run away after the shooting?
Page 19.
Dessie Hightower - Direct
A. Ahh, let me make this clear. When I was interviewed by
I believe it was a detective that evening, that morning, I'm not quite
sure, I told him that I did see someone fleeing, ahh, that area before any
officers arrived on the scene. I seen someone fleeing towards I believe
12th and Locust area.
Q. And were you then interviewed by detectives a second time?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And was that approximately one week later?
A. Yeah, approximately, yeah, one week from the incident itself,
yes.
MR. WEINGLASS: May I have this document marked next in order for
identification.
THE COURT OFFICER: D-16.
(Investigative report was marked
Defense Exhibit D-l6
for identification.)
THE COURT OFFICER: D-l6 (handing).
MR. WEINGLASS: Could the witness be shown what's been marked --
THE COURT: Just a minute, he is looking at it.
MR. WEINGLASS: Oh, I'm sorry.
(Pause.)
Page 20.
Dessie Hightower - Direct
MR. GRANT: Thank you, Your Honor. Thank you.
THE COURT OFFICER: D-16, sir. D-16,sir (handing).
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Now, Mr. Hightower, that second interview by the
detectives... Do you know what time of day that started? Let me strike
that.
Do you know what day it was that you were interviewed a second
time?
A. 12-15.
Q. Are you referring to the document that's been marked?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. D-16?
A. Yes.
Q. Does that help your recollection on what day it was?
A. Yes, now it does, yes.
Q. So it was December 15th, about a week later?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And does that, referring you to the front page of that
document, does it indicate what time that interview began?
A. Yes. 4:00 p.m.
Page 21.
Dessie Hightower - Direct
Q. 4:00 p.m?
A. Yes.
Q. Now I refer you to the last page of D-16. Does that indicate what
time the interview ended?
A. This is 12-15-81, right?
Q. Yes.
A. Okay, 9:40 p.m.
Q. 9:40 p.m?
A. 9:40 p.m.
Q. Does that mean that you were interviewed on that occasion for five
hours and 40 minutes?
MR. GRANT: If the Court pleases, Your Honor, what
purports to be D-16, a statement, is actually a composite of at least two
statements, for Counsel's benefit. So there were two different interviews
at least.
MR. WEINGLASS: Right, thank you.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Let me ask you this. Do you remember how long you were
interviewed on December 15th? Do you remember that now?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Approximately how long?
A. 5 hours. 5 hours and 40 minutes.
Q. Now, on that occasion were you asked again
Page 22.
Dessie Hightower - Direct
what you saw on the night in question?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Did you indicate on that occasion that you saw someone flee the
scene after the shooting?
A. Directly after the shooting?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes, I did.
Q. So you told the detectives on the night of the
occurrence and a week later essentially the same thing?
A. It was exact same thing, sir.
Q. Did you indicate on those occasions whether you saw
this person flee before or after the police arrived?
A. Is states in the interview record here that I stated
to the officers that I seen someone flee before the officers came on the
scene.
Q. Do you know where this second interview took place?
A. I was at a precinct, I don't know exactly where, though.
Q. It wasn't at the Roundhouse where --
A. I don't believe so, no.
Q. Were you interviewed the first time at the Roundhouse?
Page 23.
Dessie Hightower - Direct
A. It's been almost 14 years ago, I don't know. I'm not sure. But I do
believe so.
Q. Did you describe the person who you claimed you saw fleeing?
A. To the best of my ability I described the male. It was
a male approximately six-foot, what I seen -- again this is 14 years ago
-- with a red-and-black sweater on, fleeing towards 12th and Locust. Past
a hotel that was there then, I don't know if it's there now or not.
Q. Now, what happened -- strike that. Did anything happen
in that second interview after you indicated to the detective that you saw
someone flee?
A. I don't understand you.
Q. All right. Did the detective make any suggestion to
you after you told him you saw someone flee in that second interview?
A. I can't remember him making a suggestion to me.
Q. Did there come a point in time when you were asked to take any kind
of a test?
A. During the second interview?
Q. Yes.
A. I took a polygraph test. That's the only
Page 24.
Dessie Hightower - Direct
test. It wasn't a written test, it was a polygraph test. Is that what
you are saying?
Q. Yes. Is that what it was?
A. That's what I took.
Q. Now, would you describe for the Court what you mean when you say a
polygraph test?
A. Well, it is a machine, I take it, that gauges whether
or not you're telling the truth or you're not telling the truth.
Q. Did you see the machine?
A. It was applied to me, yes, I did.
Q. And did you see what the machine was doing?
A. Umm, I seen the needle on the paper, I seen it moving, so...
Q. Was there anything attached to your body at that time?
A. Whatever the apparatus is that they put on you when
the machine is working, that was applied to me. I haven't had one done
since then so I can't, I don't know was it a wire or some type of
apparatus was applied to my arms.
Q. To your arms?
A. Yes, sir, arm area (indicating).
Q. And were you asked questions?
A. Yes.
Page 25.
Dessie Hightower - Direct
Q. Do you remember any of the questions that you were
asked while the wires were attached to you and you saw the machine?
A. Not in detail. You mean --
Q. Well, were you asked if you saw someone run away?
A. I was asked several questions. Ahh... ahh, I was asked
that question. I was asked whether or not Mr. Jamal was the actual
shooter. I was asked was this someone fleeing the scene. And I was asked
several other questions but I said I can't remember all of them right
now.
Q. But there were several questions?
A. Yes, there were.
Q. Now, later on were you interviewed by, you indicated, Mr. Greer, the
investigator?
A. Yeah, Robert Greer, I believe his name was.
Q. And you said you were -- by the way, does May 3rd as
the date of this interview ring any bells for you?
A. Ahh, I believe that was several days before I had to
-- before I came to Court, so it doesn't ring a bell. But it was in the
springtime.
Q. Now, had you previously told anyone in the District Attorney's
Office that you didn't want to
Page 26.
Dessie Hightower - Direct
talk to Mr. Jackson?
A. I don't remember telling anybody at the D.A.'s Office
that. I had a problem with Mr. Jackson. I believe he was to meet with me
and he never showed up. So I got a little ticked off about that and I
didn't want to meet with him.
Q. You didn't want to meet with him?
A. No, that's how I came to be interviewed by investigator Greer.
Q. Okay. You told Mr. Greer that?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. But you were willing to meet with Mr. Greer?
A. Yes, and I did.
Q. And after that you never met with Mr. Jackson again?
A. No, I haven't. No, I didn't, rather.
Q. And you came in here to testify without having met with Mr.
Jackson?
A. Yes.
Q. He never tried to get in touch with you to your knowledge?
A. No.
MR. GRANT: Objection, move to strike that. It calls for speculation. He
doesn't know.
Page 27.
Dessie Hightower - Direct
MR. WEINGLASS: Well, he knows he never got in touch with somebody.
MR. GRANT: Well, trying to get in touch with somebody is not anything
he could testify to.
THE COURT: Are you withdrawing that question?
MR. WEINGLASS: Yes.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Did he ever get in touch with you?
A. No.
Q. Incidentally, when you took what you described as the
polygraph test, did the detectives indicate to you the results of that
test?
A. Ahh, I believe they did. I had passed the test.
MR. WEINGLASS: Thank you, Mr. Hightower.
MR. GRANT: Your Honor, just so the record is clear: The
reason Mr. Hightower is on the stand, as I understand it from the
supporting papers of their Petition, is because there is an allegation
that the Commonwealth suppressed evidence that was discoverable under Rule
305 of the Pennsylvania Rules of Criminal
Page 28.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
Procedure. That being that the defense is entitled to
polygraph information. Unless the defendant is the person polygraphed,
under Rule 305 there is no such right. And we have turned over all three
documents arising from it. Nevertheless, because they wish to complete
these proceedings, we are not waiving our right to say that this is total
surplusage. And under those circumstances, I will be cross-examining Mr.
Hightower.
THE COURT: Okay.
- - - - -
CROSS-EXAMINATION
- - - - -
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. Good morning, sir.
A. Good morning.
Q. Now, Mr. Hightower, you said when Mr. Weinglass asked
you just a moment ago whether the detectives told you the results of the
test, you said --
A. No, I said I passed, me. I don't know what that meant.
Q. You said, I believe they did, I passed.
A. That's what I said, yes.
Page 29.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
Q. Now, you believe they told you the results?
A. Well, again, this is 14 years ago. I'm pretty sure they did.
Q. And you just confirmed that you passed, you said it again pursuant
to my question, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you signed an affidavit and swore to it --
A. It was just the same. Would you show that to me, please?
Q. No, it is a different thing.
A. Thank you.
Q. An affidavit is a document --
A. Could you show it to me, please?
MR. GRANT: Yes, sir. May I approach, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sure.
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. (Handing) Referring to the Petition for
Post-Conviction Relief, exhibit number 5, affidavit of Dessie Hightower.
This page and that last page.
Start at page 4, paragraph number 4, sir, would you
please read so that this gentleman can type down what it says?
A. Read from?
Q. Paragraph 4. Back to where you started at the
Page 30.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
bottom of the page. And read into the microphone so I could hear
you.
A. Okay. During one of the police interviews after I told
them that I saw someone, black male about five-eleven to six-foot with
long hair, possibly dreadlocks, run from the scene and -- should I
complete this page?
Q. Yes.
A. Past the hotel on Locust after the shooting, they
asked if I would, then they asked if I would take a polygraph test of the
observation. I agreed. A test was administered and I was told that I
passed. Is that what you want me --
Q. Yes, sir. And you signed that? Could I have that, please?
THE WITNESS: (Handing).
THE COURT OFFICER: (Handing).
THE WITNESS: That is my statement there, yes, it is.
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. You swore to somebody that was true, right?
A. At that point in time? I can't remember.
Q. What do you mean?
A. When you say did I swear that to somebody that was true, at that
point in time?
Page 31.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
Q. Yes, sir.
A. If that was during the trial, yes, I did. But if that
wasn't during the trial, I can not remember whether I --
Q. Okay, I appreciate that.
A. Okay, thank you.
Q. Mr. Hightower, I know this is going back 13 years.
A. Yes.
Q. And back then you were a young man?
A. Well, hopefully I think I still am somewhat young.
Q. I understand that. But when you signed this it was less than 90 days
ago?
A. Is that now? Or is that back in '81?
Q. You never saw this before, did you?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. When did you see it?
A. Are you -- is that the affidavit that the defense had
given me, sir, is that what you are asking me?
Q. Well, you read it, you tell me?
A. Yes, that is what I said to him. They was talking
about that was the attorney Weinglass had given to it me, yes.
Page 32.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
Q. And that was on May --
A. Okay.
Q. On May 17th -- May 10th of this year?
A. Yes.
Q. And you said if it --
A. I was confused, okay. Thank you. Just clear --
Q. This man could only type down one of us talking at a time.
A. Okay.
Q. When I start talking, you listen; when you start talking, I'll
listen.
A. Thank you.
Q. Okay? Now, you said if those words were what I said at
the trial, it was true, and if it's not, I'm not sure. What do you mean by
that?
A. Obviously, I was confused with the dates. No, I did
make that statement and I did sign the affidavit, yes.
Q. And you swore it was true?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And you swore it was true because you know it's true, not because
you think it's true?
A. Because I know it's true.
Q. Would you like to reconsider that before I go
Page 33.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
any further?
A. No, I wouldn't, no.
MR. GRANT: Could we have Detective Thomas and Officer Sterling come
into the room, please.
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. While they are doing that, sir.
A. Okay.
Q. Do you recall testifying at the trial when you
testified on behalf of Mr. Jamal here that at some point you told the
detectives you didn't know if the person you saw running was a male or
female?
A. Ahh, I do believe I said it was a -- to me what I
observed at that point in time, it looked to be a black, to be a black
male by the size and the build.
Q. Yes, sir. My question was, do you recall testifying at
trial that you had told the detectives investigating this case and
interviewing you that at some point you had stated to one of these
investigators that you didn't really know if it was a male or female?
A. The only way I possibly could have said that is because of the
hair.
Q. Well, did you say it or did you not say it?
Page 34.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
A. I can't remember.
MR. GRANT: Please step up and identify yourself for the record.
MR. THOMAS: William E. Thomas, Detective, 744, retired.
LIEUTENANT STERLING: Lieutenant Craig Sterling, Philadelphia Police
Department, Badge number 330.
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. Mr. Hightower, I would like you first to look at the
gentleman here who says his name is Mr. William Thomas (indicating),
retired detective. Do you recognize this person?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Never have seen him before in your life?
A. I don't recognize him.
Q. This person here, Officer Craig Sterling: Have you ever seen him
before?
A. Faintly remember but I can't say I do.
Q. And as to this faint recollection, where do you faintly recall
seeing his face?
A. Ahh, possibly one of the detectives that interviewed me, I
believe.
Q. Oh. Which interview was that?
A. Sir, I don't know if it was the first or
Page 35.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
second interview.
Q. And was he the person asking you the questions?
A. I don't know. I really can't answer that. Maybe he
asked me some questions, maybe the other gentleman did. If he did
interview me. I can't say yes, I can't say no.
Q. And perhaps both of them asked you questions, right?
A. Yes, perhaps.
Q. And would it refresh your recollection if I said maybe
this gentleman -- Mr. Sterling -- is the one that attached those
instruments to your body and gave you the polygraph?
A. No, that wouldn't refresh my recollection.
MR. GRANT: Thank you, gentlemen.
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. Now, when I said to you did you ever tell the
detective, did you ever testify whether or not this person you saw was
either a man or a woman and you said it's possible, did you or didn't
you?
A. Yes, that is in the, in the transcript, sir. Can you show me where I
said that at, please?
Q. Yes, sir. I will refer your attention, and Counsels', to June 28th,
1982, page 28.148. I will
Page 36.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
read it to you and then I will give it to you.
A. Thank you.
Q. This is Mr. McGill, he is the Assistant D.A., he was cross-examining
you.
A. Yes.
Q. Meaning that after Mr. Jackson had talked to you, the
D.A. got up and asked you some questions?
A. Okay.
Q. Beginning at page 147 he said, question: Now, Mr.
Hightower, when you came back, when you heard the shots, you were still
covered, were you not, from the wall in the parking lot where all the
shots were fired.
Do you understand what he is saying at that point?
A. Yes, I understand.
Q. He is saying you are behind the wall, you are afraid to look out
because you hear shots?
A. Yes.
Q. And you say oh, yes. Question: You were not outside at all. Meaning
beyond the wall?
A. Okay, yes.
Q. You say no. Question: As a matter of fact, in one of
your statements you said, and you were understandably quieted -- I think
it means you were
Page 37.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
understandably quoted -- as saying -- and this is your
last statement to Counsel -- I wasn't going to peek my head around the
corner, not knowing where the shots were coming from, I didn't want to
catch a stray bullet. Isn't that something that you said.
And do you recall that?
A. The shots.
Q. And you answered yes, yes. This is what I want you to focus on.
A. Okay.
Q. Now, in reference to this individual you say you saw
running, the one I believe you said that you were unsure -- and he stops
and says and correct me if I am wrong -- your testimony was you were
unsure whether or not that was a male, or it could even be a female,
that's what you said.
Answer: Yes.
Question: All you saw was the back of the head, right.
Answer: Yes. And a sweater.
Would you like to see this?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you like to see this?
A. No, that's clear.
Q. Okay. So you did indicate that, you did tell
Page 38.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
the police you didn't know whether it was a man or a woman?
A. I think I -- okay, if that's what the testimony said, that's what I
said, yes.
Q. And you would agree that your recollection of the
events of that night of December the 9th, 1981 were much clearer six
months later than it is 13 years later; would you agree with that?
A. Yes, I would.
Q. Now, you said that Mr. Jackson and you didn't have
a... a very good relationship because he stood you up on an occasion for a
meeting, right?
A. To the best of my recollection, yes. Yes.
Q. And you don't know whether he had a pressing engagement in
court?
A. No, I, no, I don't.
Q. You don't know whether he went to the hospital?
A. Well, whatever the situation was, I didn't meet with him.
Q. And you didn't know whether he was with Mr. Jamal attempting to
assist him in his case?
A. Whatever the situation was, I didn't meet with him.
Q. I see. But you did meet with his
Page 39.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
investigator, right?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. And you told his investigator that you didn't want to meet with
Anthony Jackson, right?
A. I just said that talking, what you just said. But,
yes, it came across that way: I would prefer not to meet with him.
Q. Okay. And when you dealt with the Police Department,
Mr. Hightower, did they treat you in a professional and courteous
manner?
A. For the most part.
Q. And they respected you as a man and didn't try to change anything
you said, did they?
A. No, they didn't try to change any of my statements.
Q. And did they ever tell you I don't want you to
cooperate with Mr. Jackson or anybody that works for Mr. Jamal in this
case?
A. No, that wasn't stated to me at all.
Q. And were you trying to hide from Mr. Jackson's
investigator or did you meet him when he contacted you?
A. I met him when he contacted me.
Q. So there was no problem between you and Mr. Greer, who was the
investigator, a tall black
Page 40.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
man?
A. Yeah, I remember vaguely, a very big guy.
Q. Yes. And he treated you with respect, did he not?
A. Ahh, yes.
Q. And he took an interview from you?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And your recollection is, although it's been 13 years, you think he
tape recorded you, right?
A. Yeah, but I'm not quite sure. I am not quite sure that he did.
Q. In any event, before you took the stand to testify for
Mr. Jamal, whether it was tape recorded or otherwise, it was reduced to
writing in some form and they gave it to you to read so that you could
remember what you said -- look at me when I'm talking. Don't look at Mr.
Weinglass.
A. I'm not looking in that direction.
Q. Okay, let me stand over here for you.
A. Okay, that's no problem.
Q. You did look at the statements that you gave to Mr. Greer in
preparation to testify, right?
A. Yes, I did.
MR. WEINGLASS: Objection: It's confusing. It is unclear whether it was
back
Page 41.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
then or now.
MR. GRANT: I am going to unconfuse him right now.
THE COURT: They are interviewing him now?
MR. WEINGLASS: Pardon?
THE COURT: Is Greer interviewing him now?
MR. WEINGLASS: No, Your Honor didn't hear the question.
The question was did you look at the statement.
THE COURT: Before he testified at the time of the trial?
MR. WEINGLASS: Well, that clarifies it if that's the
question. But at the time of the trial wasn't part of the question.
MR. GRANT: May I approach, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sure.
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. I am going to show you, Mr. Hightower, what purports
to be a statement taken from you by Mr. Greer on May 3rd, 1982, and I want
you just to flip through the pages, take your time and see if that is in
fact the interview that you recall having
Page 42.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
given him?
You could just go back until it stops, it's about seven pages. Take
your time, sir.
(Pause.)
A. All right. Thank you.
Q. I know this is stressful.
A. Okay.
Q. Just relax.
(Pause.)
MR. WEINGLASS: The record should reflect that we have
just been handed a confirmation of what we alleged in the Petition and
what the witness has testified to: The results of a polygraph test that
was administered to this witness on December 15th --
THE COURT: Well, Counselor, could you leave that for
later on. Let's finish with the cross-examination.
MR. WEINGLASS: I just --
THE COURT: We will take that up later on.
MR. WEINGLASS: No, Your Honor --
THE COURT: Not in front of the witness. If you want to see me back here
I will talk to you.
Page 43.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
MR. WEINGLASS: He is about to be shown it by Counsel.
MR. GRANT: No, he is not, but he will be soon.
I did, in fact, hand him a copy. At this stage he is not
entitled to it, actually, at all but I am out of courtesy.
MR. WEINGLASS: It wasn't included in the Response to the
Petition where we alleged this.
THE COURT: Okay, all right.
MR. WEINGLASS: When they should have informed us.
THE COURT: Okay, Counselor.
MR. GRANT: By the way, Your Honor, our Response in
discovery was not that we didn't have it, but that we have no such
document where he passed a polygraph. And that's what they alleged.
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. Do you recognize that, sir?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is that the statement that you gave Mr. Greer?
A. Well, not really verbatim. Yes, it looks to be.
Page 44.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
Q. You say you don't know if it's verbatim?
A. I said I didn't read it verbatim, it looks to be.
Q. Okay, it looks to be. If there is any confusion as to
any part I am talking about, I will give it back to you.
A. Thank you.
Q. You're welcome. While I'm here, so we are together --
A. This was back in '82? Right?
Q. Yes, May 3rd, '82.
A. Okay. I am keeping my dates straight.
Q. Okay.
A. Thank you.
Q. I am not going to try to confuse you on these dates.
MR. GRANT: I am here because he may want to have recourse to this
(displaying).
THE COURT: Okay.
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. Question by Mr. Greer: Mr. Hightower, I don't have
your statement with me but I have read it. How many times were you
questioned by the police.
And you say three times, right? I am right here.
Page 45.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
A. Okay, if it says that.
Q. Okay (indicating)? Did you ever tell the D.A. that you
did not want to talk to me or anyone else connected with this case.
Answer: I told them I didn't want to give a statement to
Mr. Jackson, his attorney. I didn't say I wouldn't talk to an investigator
or anything like that.
Now, you understand I am working for his attorney.
A. Say again.
Q. I am working for Mr. Jamal and his attorney. You said
yes, you told me that over the phone. I decided that what I told them I
can tell you.
Meaning what you told the police, you feel like it is okay to tell this
investigator?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And he says to begin, you were going to Whispers. Did
you see the police car during the time you were trying to get into
Whispers.
And they are talking about Officer Faulkner's police car, the officer
that was slain that night.
A. I understand.
Page 46.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
Q. And you said, I seen him pull up and I seen him get
out of the car and walk to the passenger side. I was looking out the side
of my eye, I really didn't pay any attention, it probably was a routine
thing. I was walking back, you know, where the wall is. Walking back
towards the car. I heard the shots go off. Maybe three or four, probably
two or three seconds in between. I walked back and peeped from behind the
wall. I couldn't see anything. I didn't hear anymore shots going off,
okay. So I walked towards Whispers, and by then it was flooded with other
police officers. I saw somebody running past the hotel.
A. Oh, may I --
Q. Yes.
A. -- say something?
Q. Yes.
A. When I gave that statement to investigator Greer, the
part where I seen someone running from the scene, that was prior to the,
umm, backup or whatever, the police that came. When I actually seen
someone running from that scene, that was prior to the arrival of the
additional officers. I want to clarify that, sir.
Q. And you told Mr. Weinglass that, I understand
Page 47.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
that.
A. Well, I'm telling you so you also know that. Because
the way it was tooken down, it wasn't in sequence, that's what I'm saying
to you.
Q. Well, are you saying that Mr. Greer got it backwards?
A. Yes. That's what I am saying to you.
Q. Well, could it be that you said it backwards instead
of him writing it down backwards, or tape recording it backwards?
A. I'm clarifying that now, if I can actually do that, okay.
Q. You can do that.
A. Okay. Thank you.
Q. You say, and by then it was flooded with other police
officers. I saw somebody running past the hotel. I don't know if they were
running because of the gunshots or what.
A. Hmm-hmm.
Q. Now, you said I don't know if they were running?
A. That person. It wasn't multiple, it was single. It was just one
person.
Q. And at that time, Mr. Hightower, you were just a nice guy who saw
something and you wanted to
Page 48.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
cooperate with the police and tell them what happened,
you wanted to cooperate with the police, tell them honestly what you knew,
and that's all that was going on here; correct?
A. At that time that's what I seen, yes.
Q. Yes. And you really have not really changed that no
matter how many times you have been interviewed, have you?
A. I believe I have been consistent.
Q. Hmm?
A. I believe I've been consistent.
Q. Yes. Now, you said that you were given a polygraph. At
any time did anyone tell you why they wanted to give you a polygraph,
sir?
A. Again, we are going back 14 years ago. You are asking
me something I really can't answer honestly.
Q. But you can honestly answer that you in fact were given one?
A. Yes, I could honestly answer that.
Q. And you could in fact honestly answer you passed one?
A. I could honestly answer that, but I can't say who
explained to me why they are giving it to me or what was the reasons.
No.
Page 49.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
Q. Okay. Now, this occurred about a week after you gave your first
statement?
A. (Witness shrugged shoulders.)
Q. Is that a yes or --
A. Yes.
Q. Is your middle name Delmar?
A. Yes.
Q. At that time did you live at 5452 Arlington Street?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. And at that time you were unemployed, were you not?
A. I believe so.
Q. And this wasn't your first experience back in 1981 taking a
polygraph examination, was it?
A. No, I think I took one prior to that for a job.
Q. And after you took the polygraph examination, then the person --
A. Are you saying for this case or for the job?
Q. I am not going to talk about that job interview anymore.
A. Okay.
Q. Everything I am going to talk about is about this case.
Page 50.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
A. All right, thank you.
Q. The person that gave you the polygraph examination was
different than the person that was asking you the questions that were
reduced to writing in your police interviews, were they not, two different
people?
A. You, you are kind of mixing me up here.
Q. Okay. The person that first interviewed you and took down --
A. I believe so. What you are saying now, I believe so.
Q. You believe there were two different people involved?
A. I believe.
Q. After the first person interviewed you he took you to
another person in a different place where they had a polygraph machine;
correct?
A. Now are you talking about the same day or two
different, the first interview or second interview?
Q. Okay. They only polygraphed you once?
A. Right.
Q. And they only polygraphed you on the day when you were there for
five hours, as you say?
A. If that's what the documents say, sir.
Q. Right?
Page 51.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
A. Right.
Q. And that was the second time you were there, not the first time?
A. Yes, okay.
Q. Don't try to confuse me.
A. Don't try to confuse you? Okay.
Q. You were there, you were interviewed by the detective?
A. Yes.
Q. You then were taken to a room where this machine was standing there
lurking in your face, right?
A. Oh... yes, if you want to put it that way, yes.
Q. All right. And at that point in time the man affixed
these various wires and gadgets to you, cuffs on your arms, and things on
your pinkie and fingers and what not, and the needle started moving around
and all that?
A. Yes.
Q. And while he had those things on you he asked you some
questions, didn't he, just to see what it's like, what your body acts like
when you are not telling the truth and you know it; didn't that
happen?
Page 52.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
A. My body -- no, you really got me confused now --
Q. Test questions?
A. I don't, I don't know. Maybe he did, I don't know.
Q. Let me see if I could refresh your recollection.
A. Okay, thank you.
Q. He asked you if you lived in the United States, and
did you personally tell Ralph Baldwin you saw Police Officer Faulkner
killed. And he described this person to you, Ralph Baldwin, as a
six-foot-ten-and-three-quarter-inch --
A. Six-foot-ten?
Q. Yes, sir. Now listen to me.
A. Okay.
Q. Six-foot-ten-and-three-quarter inches, 175 pounds, and
I believe that he said his hair was black with a white streak in it.
A. Oh, these are test questions, sir?
Q. Yes, sir. Do you remember that?
A. Again, I can't say that I do.
Q. Okay.
A. But.
Q. It's all right.
A. Yeah.
Page 53.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
MR. GRANT: I would like marked as Commonwealth's Exhibits
10, 11, 12, 13 and 14 -- I believe that would be next in order.
THE COURT OFFICER: 11 is next.
MR. GRANT: Okay, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15. Previously submitted to Counsel
for the Defendant.
(Set of polygraph examination documents were
marked
Commonwealth Exhibits C-11, C-12, C-13, C-l4 and C-l5 for
identification.)
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. I am going to show you some papers, Mr. Hightower.
A. Okay.
Q. I am going to ask you when he shows them to you if you recognize
your signature?
A. Yes.
THE COURT OFFICER: Excuse me. C-15, Your Honor, starting with C-l1
(handing).
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. You could look at all of them.
A. I see it.
Q. One is a document Mr. Weinglass has already shown you.
Look them over, don't say anything, just
Page 54.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
look them over.
A. Should I read the whole thing or just look for my signature?
Q. No, you could look at everything because I am going to
ask you some questions about those documents.
A. Okay, could you give me a minute, please?
Q. Pardon?
A. Could you give me a minute, please?
Q. I could give you an hour, don't worry it, just take your time.
A. Okay.
(Pause.)
THE WITNESS: (Indicating).
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. Are you ready, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay, do you recognize from having looked at it now, does that
refresh your recollection?
A. Yes.
Q. As to the event that we are talking about?
A. Yeah.
Q. It is coming back to you because you recognize some words?
A. Some of the wording, yes.
Page 55.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
Q. Yes. As a matter of fact, at that time you had at
least a year of college under your belt, didn't you?
A. Two.
Q. Two, okay. Now, one document I would like you to look for there --
you could spread them out.
A. Okay, just tell me, I could pull it.
Q. Okay. It says polygraph examination agreement?
A. That's C-15?
Q. I don't have the number, that's why I am asking you to spread them
out.
A. Yes, the agreement, yes (displaying).
Q. What does that say, sir?
MR. WEINGLASS: Your Honor, I am going to object. This is
all hearsay. Detective Sterling is here, and if are we are going to have
polygraph results introduced, I think it has to be introduced through the
detective who took the test, not by asking the witness whether he believed
the detective did right or wrong.
So I think it's improper to be asking the witness these
questions. First, without laying a foundation; and secondly, without
calling the officer who took the test to
Page 56.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
describe what he did.
MR. GRANT: I agree 100 percent. And in order to verify
and authenticate that these are his, I have to ask him is this your
signature, did he ask you the questions. Kind of a foundation.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. Would you read into the record -- by the way, on that
document that says polygraph examination agreement, is that your
handwriting on that document in two places?
A. You asked about my signature?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. That is my signature.
Q. Yes, it is. Read what it says into the record?
A. I hereby voluntarily and willingly submit --
Q. No, no, no, you have to speak out. You have to slowly say it.
A. I do hereby voluntarily and willingly submit to a lie
detector examination in order to show that possible truth or honesty of my
statements. And I hereby release from the Police Department and examiner
Detective Sterling, I guess it is his badge
Page 57.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
number, 845.
Q. What it really says: I, Dessie Hightower, do hereby
voluntarily and willingly submit to a lie detector examination in order to
show if possible the truth and honesty of my statements. And I hereby
release the Philadelphia Police Department and the examiner C. Sterling --
that was the person I showed you, the white male, a moment ago.
A. Well, you just read it for me: I don't have to read it then,
right?
Q. Well, yes, that's right, I am reading it for you because you didn't
finish reading it.
A. Oh, okay.
Q. From any and all claims resulting from or arising out of this
examination.
And then you sign it again, put your address and the date 12-15-81,
right?
A. (Witness nodded head affirmatively.)
Q. Then the examiner starts asking you some questions just to see?
A. Are we going to another document now?
Q. Yes, we are going to another document. It consists of two pages.
A. Okay.
Q. Strike that. Take the long one out
Page 58.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
(displaying).
A. Just keep me abreast when you go to another document, thank you.
Q. You're right. I'm sorry.
A. Okay.
Q. The next document, what number is that document up at the top?
A. That's C-12.
Q. Okay, I will write them on mine so I know. Okay,
that's C-12. That gives your date of birth as 10-19-59, says you were 22
at that time, right?
A. Ahh, yes, it does.
Q. So we know that's you, right?
A. This is me.
Q. Okay. And he asked you a bunch of background
information to make sure you are not sick or on drugs or using alcohol,
because those kind of things affect the machine, did he tell you that?
A. Ahh, yes, I guess.
Q. Okay. And then he said at the bottom, he said this
test concerns the shooting death of Police Officer Daniel Faulkner,
26-year-old white male, which occurred on 12-9-81 at about 3:55 a.m, 1200
block of Locust Street.
A. It says the shooting death of --
Page 59.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
Q. Yes.
A. -- Officer Faulkner.
Q. Yes, the shooting death of Officer --
A. Which occurred on 12-9-81 at about 3:55 a.m.
Q. Okay? Now, as a result of him telling you that he then
asked you a question and then he asked you to give him an answer.
And tell me if I'm wrong: Before he started giving you
the test he said I'm going to give you all the questions that I'm going to
ask you in this test, before you even take the test?
A. I can't remember that, sir.
Q. Okay. Read the question that he wrote down that he asked and what
answer he said you gave?
A. You are asking me to read it again?
Q. Yes, slowly and loudly, please.
A. You seem to do it better than me. Could you?
Q. Do you want me too?
A. Yeah, I would prefer it.
Q. All right.
A. Thank you.
Q. Question: What can you tell me about the shooting of Police Officer
Faulkner.
Answer: I didn't see any shooting, but I heard three shots close
together, then two
Page 60.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
later. I got to 13th and Locust Streets and I saw the
first car pull up and then there were police all over. And the -- I think
that's supposed to mean they -- they got the suspect -- and you have in
parenthesis Jamal -- and his brother, and they put the officer and Jamal
into separate wagons. They asked me if I could identify Jamal as shooting
the cop and I told them no.
Now, this is a week after the killing: 12-15-81? It says so up at the
top, right-hand corner, right?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. Now, at that time you knew Mr. Jamal's name?
A. Say that again, please.
Q. At that time you knew Mr. Jamal by name?
A. Yes -- yes.
Q. And you knew his brother?
A. No, I did not know his brother. I guess because of the
media reports and things of that nature.
Q. But you didn't rely on the radio reports to know Mr. Jamal's name,
did you?
A. I don't know where you are going with that. I don't understand.
Q. You don't have to, just answer it.
Page 61.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
A. I don't understand.
Q. You knew Mr. Jamal's name before you had to read the paper and the
radio, right?
A. I had knew his name?
Q. Yes.
A. Umm... I knew his name.
Q. And you knew his face?
A. No, I can't say I knew his face. I knew his name.
Q. Where did you first meet him?
A. When did I first meet Mr. Jamal?
Q. Yes.
A. Ahh, it's been, it was I guess maybe four or five
years prior to that. I believe he was a reporter for WDAS at that time.
And I was president of the Philadelphia Student Union. And he interviewed
me in the park or at the station briefly in reference to the Student
Union.
Q. Was he wearing dreadlocks when he interviewed you?
A. I don't remember.
Q. And you didn't recognize this same person that talked face-to-face
with you?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Okay. And you knew once you read the papers
Page 62.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
that this was the same guy that interviewed you four or five years
before, right?
A. Yeah, well, it came back, it came back to me, yeah.
Q. Now he said that is the question I am going to ask you, did he
not?
A. Say that again, sir. Could you repeat the question?
Q. Did Detective Sterling say to you now, Mr. Hightower,
this is not difficult, that's the question I am basically going to test
you on? Do you recall him telling you that?
A. No. But if it's in the documents. Again, you are asking me a lot of
things I can't remember, sir. So you are refreshing my memory.
Q. Yeah, I'm trying to.
A. Thank you.
Q. All right. And to verify that this is you, would you
look at the next document? It's two pages.
A. 13.
Q. Two pages?
A. Two pages.
Q. Has some scribbling out in the middle and so forth. It is attached,
it is stapled pages.
A. Two pages?
Page 63.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
Q. Yes.
A. Okay, that's C-14.
Q. Okay. And there is a series of questions and answers on there,
right?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. After looking at both pages, do you remember telling him any of
those things on there?
A. Say it that again, please. Would you say that again?
Q. Yeah. Let me get closer to you.
A. Thank you.
Q. Do you remember telling him anything on those pages?
After looking it over, does it refresh your recollection?
(Pause.)
Q. You recognize that, don't you?
A. Yeah...
Q. Well, did you put tacks on the teacher's chair when
you were 9 years-old and get caught or not get caught? You did that,
didn't you?
A. I did that, yeah.
Q. Yes, you did that. And you beat up a girl when you
were 8 years-old and you got caught for it, and they caught you fighting
and your mom said that's not right?
Page 64.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
Q. (Handing) We have a signature at two ends.
A. Yeah.
Q. And you beat up a boy when you were 16 years-old and you got caught
for that punch, right?
A. Oh, boy, yeah.
Q. This is you, isn't it?
A. This is me.
Q. All right. Now, they gave you the test, and before
they started the test they said this is your piece of paper, it is going
to have squiggly lines on it, it is going to be charts and graphs, but
it's yours, and before we start I'm going to put it in here, and I want
you to sign it at the beginning, and when I take it out I want you to sign
it at the end, because I don't want anybody to say this isn't your test;
do you remember doing that?
A. This is the polygraph test you are speaking on?
Q. Yes, the test itself, a piece of paper?
A. Possibly.
MR. GRANT: Okay, let me see if I have that (handing).
MR. WEINGLASS: (Handing).
BY MR. GRANT:
Page 65.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
This is the top.
A. That is my signature, yes, it is.
Q. What date is that?
A. 12-15-81.
Q. Okay, at the end of the paper we have another signature. Whose name
is that?
A. That's my signature.
Q. Okay. Do you remember signing these?
A. Yes, that's my signature.
MR. WEINGLASS: Counsel, is there a time indicated?
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. Is there a time indicated there?
A. Yes, last part, 8:54 p.m.
MR. WEINGLASS: 8:54.
THE WITNESS: 8:54 p.m. BY MR. GRANT:
Q. And you were released, according to your statement, at
9:40 because you were there 5 hours and 40 minutes, right?
A. Yes.
Q. So this occurred about 45 minutes before you left,
this ended 45 minutes before you left, right?
A. Yes, approximately.
Q. And after you took this test you stayed there
Page 66.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
another 45 minutes, didn't you?
A. Well, I guess I did, if I left at 9:40.
Q. Right. And the reason you stayed another 45 minutes is
because they told you -- didn't they? -- Mr. Hightower, we asked you this
question and we detected deception: Last Wednesday did you see Jamal with
a gun in his hand. Your answer was no. And they said we think you're lying
and I want to turn you back over to this detective and I want you to talk
to him.
Do you recall them telling you that?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Well, do you recall this two-page document that has
the writing on it that Mr. Weinglass showed you before?
A. No, what's there?
Q. It says Dessie Hightower, has a number 9 there?
A. Yeah, okay, page 9 is it? Yes.
Q. Do you want to -- I am going to read the question and
read the answer and see if it refreshes your recollection as to what they
told you before they gave you this.
Question: After having spoken to Detective Sterling, do you have
anything to add to
Page 67.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
your prior interview.
Answer: I know that I didn't see him with the gun, I didn't see Jamal
with the gun.
Do you remember saying that to them?
A. I believe so, Counselor.
Q. Well --
A. You are asking me about something 14 years ago; and this is not my
handwriting either.
Q. I know it is not but it is on the bottom, isn't it (displaying)?
A. Okay, yeah, okay.
Q. Is it or not?
A. This is my signature, yes, it is.
Q. Go to the next page. Is your signature on the bottom of that?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. You seem like a prudent and careful man. You didn't sign something
you didn't read, did you?
A. Well, sir, again, it's been 14 years ago so you're telling me
something that I may have forgot.
Q. Okay.
A. Okay.
Q. Why were you saying I didn't see, I know I didn't see
the gun in his hand? Were they accusing you of having seen it in his
hand?
Page 68.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
A. Well, maybe the question was geared that way. Again, it's
speculation.
Q. Okay.
A. But I'm not quite sure. If I took that tone, it must
have been something because it wasn't conducive to what I was saying.
Q. Right.
MR. WEINGLASS: Objection: Counsel again is misreading a
document, this one right in front of him. I could only assume he is doing
it purposely. He didn't say what Counsel just told him he said. He said I
know I didn't see him with a gun. I didn't see him, Jamal, with a gun.
Counsel adds did you see him with a gun in his hand. It's very different
when he reads it.
MR. GRANT: Did I say that?
MR. WEINGLASS: Yes.
MR. GRANT: I'm sorry.
MR. WEINGLASS: The document is right in your hand. I
would think you would at least have the decency to read it right.
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. Are you reading along with me?
A. Now I will be.
Page 69.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
Q. I know I didn't see him with a gun, I didn't see Jamal with a
gun.
Do you remember saying that to them?
A. Counsel, if it's down here and I signed it, I assume that I did.
Q. Next question: The male that you saw running, did he have a gun.
What was your answer?
A. It says no.
Q. Question: Did anyone tell you Jamal had a gun.
What's your answer?
A. I don't recall anyone saying that Jamal had a gun.
But you said did anyone tell me. Did anyone tell you that
Jamal had a gun. My answer to that was I don't recall anyone. No, I
don't.
Q. Yes. Do you know why they are asking you all these different reasons
why or if Mr. Jamal had a gun? Did they tell you why they are asking you
these things?
MR. WEINGLASS: Objection to the form of the question. The witness can't
know why the police --
THE COURT: He is asking him if they
Page 70.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
said that to him. Listen to the question, Counselor.
MR. WEINGLASS: I did. It could be read back. Could the
question be read back? I ask for the privilege of having the question read
back. The first part.
(The Court reporter read the last question.)
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. Did they?
MR. WEINGLASS: I object to the form of the question. You
know the reasons why. How could he know the reasons why?
MR. GRANT: I will rephrase it. I will withdraw the question.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. Did they tell you why they were asking you in these different ways
if you saw him with a gun?
A. No, I don't remember that, sir.
Q. Didn't they show you on your chart?
A. Oh, are we back to --
Q. No, on that long piece of paper, I showed you at both
ends you signed it. Didn't they point to that and say you see right here,
when I asked you
Page 71.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
this question about did you see the man with the gun you
said no and this needle went up here like this? Do you recall that?
A. Are you speaking on this C-12?
Q. Listen to me.
A. You asked me to read --
Q. Listen to me.
A. Okay, thank you.
Q. The piece of paper that I was holding up for you (displaying).
A. Yes, the polygraph.
Q. It showed names at both ends?
A. Yes.
Q. Didn't they point to that where they had written a
question and say this needle says you're lying about this one
question?
A. I can't remember that.
Q. Okay, fine. Next question: When you first saw Jamal, did you know
who he was.
What's your answer, sir?
We are back on, we are back on C --
A. C-l1 is it?
Q. I guess it's 13.
A. I believe it is. Let me know when I keep flipping these papers.
Page 72.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
Q. I'll let you keep up. Go ahead.
A. Thank you.
Q. When you first saw Jamal did you know who he was?
A. Ahh, my answer was no. I didn't know until I heard it on the
radio.
Q. No, no, wait, we don't want Mr. Weinglass to get upset. Read the
whole thing?
A. Excuse me, did I read that wrong?
Q. Yes.
A. Then you read it for me.
Q. No, I didn't know that until I heard it at home on the radio.
A. On the radio, yes.
Q. Oh.
A. Okay.
Q. Question: Did you see anyone besides other police on the scene with
guns.
Answer: No. When he -- Detective Sterling -- asked me if I saw Jamal
with a gun in his hand --
A. It says when Detective Sterling asked me.
Q. It says what?
A. When he: Detective Sterling.
Q. No, when he --
Page 73.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. -- Detective Sterling -- asked me if I saw Jamal with
a gun in his hand, I could picture him with a gun but I didn't see him
with one?
A. Now, that's, that part right there I don't understand.
Umm, I didn't, I signed this but I do not believe me saying I could
picture him with a gun.
Q. Yeah, everything so far is --
A. No.
MR. WEINGLASS: Objection, Your Honor. The witness has to
be allowed to answer. He is being cut off.
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. Are you finished?
A. No, I wasn't, Counselor.
Q. Finish?
THE COURT: Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: No, I do not believe that I put that. I
signed this but I do not believe that I put I could picture him with a
gun. That doesn't even sound conducive to what I have been saying all
along.
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. I know. That's the problem?
A. The word I could picture him with a gun, okay.
Page 74.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
That's what I think they should have said, sir.
Q. And you read this before you signed it?
A. Well, sir, I was there, it was just so many hours,
maybe I was extremely tired at that time. I am not making excuses up but I
am simply telling you the truth. That does not sound conducive to what I
have been saying.
Q. Why are you looking --
A. I am not looking in that direction.
Q. Why are you looking at this man when you are talking to me?
A. Well, you stand over here, Counselor, I will talk to you.
MR. WEINGLASS: Objection to the false accusation against
the witness. Counsel has been wrong in repeating the record, wrong in
reading documents, and he is wrong again and falsely accusing the
witness.
THE COURT: All right, okay.
MR. WEINGLASS: I ask the Court to admonish Counsel.
THE COURT: Stand over there (indicating).
MR. GRANT: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: So he can't. Or if you
Page 75.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
have to, get right up close here maybe, so there is no
misunderstanding.
MR. WEINGLASS: So we can't what?
THE COURT: No, I said so that he knows what documents he
is looking at, because his documents don't have the numbers on it. For the
record, refer to the number.
MR. GRANT: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Do you have the number on this that you are
talking about? I don't know if it's in the record.
THE WITNESS: C-11.
THE COURT: C-l1 you are talking about?
MR. GRANT: I believe so, Your Honor. (displaying).
THE WITNESS: His is not --
MR. GRANT: Numbered.
THE WITNESS: -- numbered.
THE COURT: His isn't?
THE WITNESS: His isn't, the attorney's.
MR. GRANT: We are on the same page, aren't we?
THE COURT OFFICER: Same document.
Page 76.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
THE COURT: Mark it so when you are talking about it you can refer to
C-11.
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. Now, you don't have recollection independently just
from going back in your mind 13 years about these questions and answers on
here, do you?
A. Say that again, please, Counsel.
Q. Yes. You don't have recollection independently, just
from your memory, with your own mind, going back to this time when this
was happening?
A. No, I can't recall every word verbatim again what you
are asking me. But what I am saying is -- if I could finish what I am
saying. Thank you. That the questions the way they formulated some of them
do look like what I said. Because I can kind of feel me saying that. If
you understand what I am saying.
Q. Which ones on there look like you didn't say them besides the one
that you have identified which --
A. The one -- go ahead, I'm sorry I cut you off.
Q. It's okay. Besides the one you say I don't recall
saying that -- which was I could picture him with a gun but I didn't see
him with one -- you didn't say that, according to you?
Page 77.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
A. It doesn't sound like anything, it doesn't sound conducive to what I
was saying all along.
Q. Well, when you say it doesn't sound conducive, that
means this is contradicting the statement that you gave to Mr. Weinglass'
investigator, the investigator -- just a minute -- and it contradicts what
you had told the police earlier; is that what you mean?
A. Umm, Counselor, that part of the statement I can not
actually say that I said it. It doesn't sound like that. As far as
whatever else you said as far as what I told attorney Weinglass or the
police, I don't know anything about that. I am just simply saying about
that one part of this last question does not sound like me, okay. I'm
telling you something that I'm feeling from my heart. If you could
understand that. If you can't, what can I say?
Q. Well, you could say this, you could say any other
thing in here, is there anything else in here that you feel from your
heart is not true as well?
A. Well, do you want to give me a second, I will read the whole thing
over again.
Q. Take your time.
A. Thank you, sir.
(Pause.)
Page 78.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
MR. WEINGLASS: When Counsel says in here, what is he referring to?
THE WITNESS: He is saying C-11.
THE COURT: He is reading over the thing that he wants to read over,
Counselor.
MR. WEINGLASS: But when Counsel says in here, is it all
of the testimony? All of the record? The one or two pages in front of the
witness?
MR. GRANT: I think the witness --
THE COURT: That's what he is looking at right now.
MR. GRANT: If the witness understands, I don't think it is required
that he understands.
MR. WEINGLASS: The witness may be misled. It's not that the witness
understands.
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. Do you understand, Mr. Hightower?
A. I am trying to desperately.
Q. Do you understand what I am saying to you, do I need to state it to
you differently?
A. Are we talking about document C-ll? If you are talking
about this document, I understand what you are saying about this
document.
Page 79.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
Q. Which one do you have in your hand?
A. I have C-l1 in my hand.
Q. Which one have we been talking about for the last five minutes?
A. I believe it is C-11. So we are on that same Page.
Q. Answer my question.
(Pause.)
A. The rest of these questions and answers seem to be,
seem to be in order, or conducive as to what I have been prior to this
saying.
Q. You mean it matches what you were saying before you
took that test? What does conducive mean, that's what I am trying to
figure out?
A. Do we have a dictionary around maybe.
Q. No, but I'm pretty good. Try me.
A. Okay, what I am saying to you, Counselor, is that what
my prior statements or affidavits or testimony, to me, what I am saying,
everything I said I said over and over again. I didn't have to shy away
from anything. Because what I'm saying is the truth.
Q. Yeah.
A. Okay. And can I say something, please? May I?
Page 80.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
Q. Say whatever you feel.
A. I could take some offense to you saying I'm looking
over to defense attorney Weinglass. I have a mind of my own, Counselor,
and I can say what I'm thinking and what I'm feeling. I don't need, I
don't need -- excuse me. I am not trying to make it a thing here. I just
want you to talk to me as a human being. As a man. I think we could go
from there.
Q. Were you looking at him? Did you look to him, yes or no?
A. I'm looking all over this room. I am in a confined area.
Q. Oh, all right. Now, the only thing that's not right is
something that is not conducive to what you said before in that piece of
paper; correct?
A. You are talking about the last statement?
Q. Yes.
A. The last part of the last statement.
Q. Yes.
A. Seems to be.
Q. And from what you saw in the interview you gave to Mr.
Greer, the investigator for Mr. Jamal, the only thing that wasn't
conducive to what you were saying there is the cops were all around you
when you saw that person running, but you are telling us that
Page 81.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
was out of sequence too?
A. No, I did not see the cops around when the person
started to run. The cops were not even on the scene when I seen the person
flee from the crime area.
Q. Yet that's what it said in Mr. Greer's interview, right? I read
it?
A. Well, yet, I also did not read his interview
intentionally enough or he wrote down what I said wrong.
Q. And as soon as you got a subpoena from the D.A.'s
Office because we wanted you to come here and tell the Court what you
claimed in this, in this book here, this document, that Petition, what's
the first thing you did?
A. I don't understand what you are saying.
Q. What's the first thing you did when a subpoena was
served at your house two weeks ago? You called Mr. Weinglass, didn't
you?
A. No, I did not call Mr. Weinglass -- I mean what is the first thing I
did. I signed the subpoena.
Q. Did you call Mr. Weinglass immediately afterwards?
A. I don't recollect that.
Page 82.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
Q. Did you call him at any time after you got it?
A. Either, he had contacted me. I didn't have his phone
number or where he was at so I believe he contacted me.
Q. And the day you got the subpoena you didn't come to Court, did
you?
A. Well, uhh --
Q. Yes or no, sir?
A. No, I did not.
Q. And you didn't come to Court but you called Mr. Weinglass, didn't
you?
MR. WEINGLASS: Objection. The witness indicated that I
had called him. After I was informed in Court here that he had been
served.
THE COURT: Counselor, this is cross-examination, please.
MR. WEINGLASS: The witness already gave the answer.
Counsel is misstating it.
THE COURT: This is cross-examination.
MR. WEINGLASS: No, you can't misstate a prior answer. You cannot do
that to a witness.
THE COURT: This is cross-examination. Counselor, please sit down.
Please.
Page 83.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
MR. WEINGLASS: Let the record show the Court in an angry voice is
pointing a threatening finger.
THE COURT: And you in an angry voice are speaking to the
Judge in disrespect. I asked you please to sit down.
MR. WEINGLASS: I don't want to be pointed at in this Courtroom, Your
Honor.
THE COURT: Counselor, please, sit down. Go ahead.
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. You called Mr. Weinglass to tell him I got a subpoena here --
MR. WEINGLASS: Objection.
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. -- did you not?
THE COURT: Objection is overruled.
THE WITNESS: No, I don't remember saying that. Excuse me, please.
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. The answer is no?
A. No, I don't remember saying that also.
Q. Did you call him?
A. I just stated to you, I think, I do believe
Page 84.
Dessie Hightower - Cross
Mr. Weinglass had contacted me. And how would you know
that I said that to Mr. Weinglass? Was my phone tapped or something? I
didn't say it to the Court or anything.
Q. No, I will --
A. What are you saying, sir?
Q. I will tell you how I know: Because you called and
left a message for me to call you, and you said when I called you, didn't
you, I talked to Mr. Weinglass, I called him, he had worked this out?
A. After he contacted me.
Q. That's how I know. I am not tapping your phone, you
told me with your mouth; do you recall that?
A. Just refreshing my memory.
Q. Why do I have to keep refreshing your memory?
A. Because I am asking you.
Q. You are sure about everything that you said about what you think
isn't conducive to you?
MR. WEINGLASS: Objection: Argumentative, form. May I have a ruling?
MR. GRANT: I think it is a proper question. I asked him a question.
MR. WEINGLASS: May I have a ruling? It is argumentative and --
Page 85.
Dessie Hightower - Redirect
THE COURT: It is overruled. Come on, let's go.
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. Sir, you flunked the box, and you know they told you
you flunked the box, and you signed an affidavit?
A. Say it again, please. The box?
Q. The box: The polygraph machine.
A. Well, I don't know, you are saying the box, I don't know what you
mean by the box.
Q. No. Polygraph. You flunked it and they told you you
flunked it, yet you signed this document under oath swearing to it that
you passed it, right?
A. No, they did not tell me I flunked it.
MR. GRANT: Thank you, sir.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
MR. GRANT: Nothing further.
- - - - -
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
- - - - -
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Let's get one thing straight right away, Mr. Hightower --
THE WITNESS: You know, you know, could I say something, please?
Page 86.
Dessie Hightower - Redirect
MR. WEINGLASS: Sure.
THE WITNESS: I came here today to tell the truth. I
didn't come to get into a mess with you or with the Judge or with the
defense.
THE COURT: Wait awhile. You haven't been shouting with me.
THE WITNESS: Well, I came to tell the truth.
THE COURT: But that's for the Court to decide.
THE WITNESS: Judge, could I finish what I am saying?
THE COURT: Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: Thank you. If what I am saying is not up to
liking or is not -- could I use the word conducive again? -- to what you
might want me to say, well, I'm sorry, sir.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. You're welcome. Mr. Hightower, when you were served
with the Commonwealth's subpoena were you asleep?
A. I was in the bed sick that night. I just took two,
ahh, soft gel, Nyquil soft gel tablets. And if you know what they do to
you, I was out of it.
Page 87.
Dessie Hightower - Redirect
Q. And it wasn't in the afternoon that you were --
A. It was in the evening hours, sir.
Q. Do you know that Mr. Grant here represented to the
Court that you were served in the afternoon?
A. Well, he misled the Court.
MR. GRANT: Objection: I said in the daytime.
MR. WEINGLASS: Let's check the record. The word is afternoon,
Counselor.
THE COURT: Well, he is saying now that you are
misquoting. Come on, let's get moving. Regardless of what he said before,
you are on redirect. Let's limit it to redirect.
MR. WEINGLASS: Well, there was a misrepresentation made here to the
Court.
THE COURT: Redirect means redirect. Now let's get into
redirect. We are not here to argue what he said or what somebody else
said.
MR. WEINGLASS: Okay.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Let's start, Mr. Hightower, at the beginning.
A. You are talking the night of the incident?
Q. Pardon?
A. You are speaking of the night of the incident?
Page 88.
Dessie Hightower - Redirect
Q. The night of the incident. Did you go down to a police
station and be interviewed on that night?
A. Yes, I did, Counselor.
Q. Was it about 5:00 in the morning when you went down?
A. Somewhere in there, 3:00, 4:00. Between 4:00 and 5:00, I guess.
Q. At that time did you know that Mr. Jamal was the person involved in
this case?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. Did you know who was the suspect who was taken into custody?
A. You mean at that point in time?
Q. Yes.
A. No, I did not.
Q. And you were interviewed, were you not?
A. Yes.
Q. That night?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Did you go down to the police station voluntarily?
A. Yes, I -- yes, I did. I believe so.
Q. And you sat there and you were asked questions and you gave
answers?
A. Yes.
Page 89.
Dessie Hightower - Redirect
Q. Do you remember telling the police that night, within
one hour of the shooting, when you didn't know who was the suspect, you
said, quoting Counsel, I seen a male run away wearing a red-and-black
sweater. And then later you said I did see the guy who ran and he looked
Jamaican too. And then later you said I just seen the back of him. He had
on dark-colored pants and a red-and-black sweater, that's all I seen. He
was about five-foot-eleven or six-foot.
A. I do remember, yes.
Q. Now, were you telling the police the truth at 5:00 in the morning on
December 9th, 1981?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Were you making up any stories?
A. For what purpose -- no, I wasn't, no.
Q. Incidentally, Mr. Hightower: Have you ever attended a
rally held on behalf of the supporters of Mr. Jamal?
MR. GRANT: Objection. That's beyond the scope of my cross.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. WEINGLASS: Pardon?
THE COURT: Yes, it is beyond the scope.
MR. WEINGLASS: No, Your Honor, there
Page 90.
Dessie Hightower - Redirect
were questions on cross on whether or not he had met Mr. Jamal. Whether
he knew him.
THE COURT: Before. Before. Before the incident.
MR. WEINGLASS: Yes. And that opens the door to questions on --
THE COURT: Before, before the incident.
MR. WEINGLASS: Your Honor, the implication is he is biased in favor of
Mr. Jamal because he knew him. I am asking him now whether --
THE COURT: How do you know that's what it is?
MR. WEINGLASS: Oh, that's the implication.
THE COURT: No, it is not the only implication.
MR. WEINGLASS: That is one implication.
THE COURT: Well, maybe.
MR. WEINGLASS: I have a right to correct it. Is the Court
preventing me from asking that question?
THE COURT: Counselor, there was an
Page 91.
Dessie Hightower - Redirect
objection, I ruled on it. If the D.A. wishes to withdraw
his objection, I have no problem with it. I only rule when I have to
rule.
MR. WEINGLASS: And what is the basis for the Court's sustaining the
objection?
THE COURT: I don't have to give you a basis, Counselor. I will do it at
the appropriate time.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. So that night, that morning, you said I seen a male, I
saw a guy and he looked Jamaican and you described the male again. And you
said he was five-foot-eleven to six-foot tall.
A. Approximately, yes.
Q. And that was within one hour of the shooting?
A. Yes, it was, Counselor.
Q. Had you talked to any of Mr. Jamal's lawyers before you made that
statement?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Had you talked to any investigators for Mr. Jamal?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Were you telling the police just what you saw on the morning of
December 9th?
A. I was telling the detectives at that time what
Page 92.
Dessie Hightower - Redirect
I had, what I had observed to the best of my knowledge.
(Discussion was held off the record at
this time
between defense Counsel.)
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. And you had no reason to deceive or to tell a lie to the
investigators that morning?
A. No, I did not, Counselor.
Q. One week later, approximately, on December 15th, you
told us you were again interviewed by the police. Right?
A. Yes.
Q. This time they kept you there for over five hours; is that
right?
A. 4:00 p.m. to 9:40 p.m.
Q. It's almost six hours?
A. 5 hours and 40 minutes, Counselor, yes.
Q. Now, Mr. Grant asked you on cross did the police treat
you well, or the detectives, and you've said to him -- and I wrote down
your answer -- for the most part. What do you mean by that?
A. From what I could recollect for the most part they
were pretty fair with me. It was inconvenience waiting around and, you
know, for different questions and answers to be, and waiting around for
the
Page 93.
Dessie Hightower - Redirect
polygraph test and all that. So for the most part they were pretty fair
with me.
Q. But on that occasion, in 5 hours and 40 minutes, did
you tell them again -- and I am reading from an exhibit -- I then looked
and I saw a man in a black, a red-and-black sweater run past the hotel
down Locust Street? And did you also tell them when they asked you... how
much time elapsed between hearing the last shot and seeing the man, the
running man, and you said about 15 seconds. And then they asked you can
you describe the man as to his height and general build, color, and if he
had a hat on or not. And you said he was black, about five-nine to
six-foot, he seemed to have dreadlocks.
Did you tell them that?
A. Yes.
Q. On the second interview, less than one week later?
A. Yes, Counselor.
Q. Incidentally --
(Discussion held off the record
between defense
Counsel.)
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. You weren't alone that night, or the early morning hours when you
saw these events on the
Page 94.
Dessie Hightower - Redirect
street, were you?
A. No, I was not.
Q. You were with another gentleman, weren't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And his name is Robert Pigford; isn't that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And he's now, to your knowledge, a police officer with
the City of Philadelphia; isn't that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. To your knowledge, is the Commonwealth going to bring
him in here? Have you heard from him that he's been subpoenaed?
A. No.
Q. You told him about what you saw too, you told Mr. Pigford?
A. That night or recently?
Q. Any time.
A. Yes, I told him.
Q. And he is now a police officer?
A. Yeah. Yes, he is.
Q. By the way, by the way, before you testified in June
of 1982, had you ever testified in a court of law before?
Page 95.
Dessie Hightower - Redirect
A. No, I don't believe so.
Q. That was your first time?
A. Yes.
Q. And you haven't talked to Tony Jackson before you took the
stand?
A. No, I already stated that, no, I haven't.
Q. And when they asked you on cross-examination, when the
District Attorney asked you now in reference to this individual you say
you saw running, the one I believe you said that you were unsure, and
correct me if I am wrong, from what your testimony was you were unsure
whether or not it was a male or could even be female, that's what you
said?
A. Repeat that, please.
Q. Yes. Do you want to see it?
A. Yes, thank you, Counselor.
MR. WEINGLASS: I will mark it, it is page 28, 148. Counsel
questioned.
MR. GRANT: For the record, June 28.
MR. WEINGLASS: June 28.
THE COURT OFFICER: (Handing).
THE WITNESS: Repeat your question, please. I've read this. Could you
repeat your question?
Page 96.
Dessie Hightower - Redirect
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Having read that, that question that was asked you in
Court when you were testifying for the first time, do you remember saying
anything to anyone that you were unsure if it was a man or a woman before
you were in Court?
A. I said it was a black male.
Q. Pardon?
A. I said it was a black male, five-eleven to six-foot.
Q. That's what you have always consistently said?
A. I said it was a black male, five-eleven, six-foot.
Q. Do you know if you've ever described the person you saw running as a
female?
A. No, I don't.
Q. But the prosecutor in questioning you suggested that you were
unsure. Is that right?
A. (Witness shrugged shoulders.)
Q. Were you unsure?
A. I said it was a black male, five-eleven to six-foot.
Q. As a matter of fact, when you were tape recorded by
Mr. Greer, did you say I couldn't identify anybody but whoever he was he
was a black
Page 97.
Dessie Hightower - Redirect
man with possible dreadlock hair; isn't that right?
A. If that's what I signed in a signed statement I said it.
MR. GRANT: It is not signed.
MR. WEINGLASS: Oh. It is the transcript of your tape-recorded statement
(displaying).
THE WITNESS: So.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. In asking you if you were unsure, do you think Mr. McGill there was
playing a lawyer's game of twisting your words?
A. I don't know what Mr. McGill was trying to do. You have to ask Mr.
McGill that, Counselor.
Q. Now, when you were questioned with the polygraph --
A. Yes.
Q. -- did they ask you on the polygraph if you saw someone running
away?
A. I believe so.
Q. Is that in any of the documents that were shown to you by
Counsel?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. In connection with the polygraph?
A. Yes, it was...
Page 98.
Dessie Hightower - Redirect
(Pause.)
A. Go ahead, Counselor, I am trying to read with you there.
Q. Pardon?
A. No, go ahead.
THE COURT: Next question.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. They never tested you by polygraph, did they, on if you saw someone
running away?
A. I don't see the question, the question, all the questions that were
--
Q. Right there is a document with all the questions on it. Which is
this document. (displaying).
THE COURT: Do you have a number on that?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE COURT: What is the number?
THE COURT OFFICER: Let me see your documents. That would be C-14.
THE COURT: Write C-l4 on your documents, if you are
asking him any questions. Right there, over there. It's yours.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Page 99.
Dessie Hightower - Redirect
Q. When you read over these questions, they never even
asked you that when you were hooked up to the polygraph?
A. That question's not down here.
Q. Right, so you were telling them on the morning of the
occurrence, you were telling them a week later, you consistently said you
saw the man run away after the shooting, and when they hooked you up to
the polygraph they didn't even ask you that question?
A. The question's not down here, Counselor.
Q. Does the description five-foot-eleven to six-foot
sound to you like you were talking about a woman running away?
A. I do know women that height but, no, it doesn't, no, I don't believe
it was a woman.
Q. You don't believe it was a woman?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Did you know someone named Veronica Jones that night, a
prostitute?
A. Ahh...
MR. GRANT: Objection: Beyond the scope.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. WEINGLASS: Your Honor, the position the Commonwealth took --
Page 100.
Dessie Hightower - Redirect
THE COURT: I said sustained.
MR. WEINGLASS: -- during the trial was that he saw a
young prostitute running away who was a very small woman.
THE COURT: Counselor, I said sustained. Remember, you are on redirect
now.
MR. WEINGLASS: Yes.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. So you took the polygraph about 8:00 to 8:54 that night; is that
right?
A. Yes, that's what it said.
Q. So you were there for four hours before they hooked you up to the
machine; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you signed off at 8:54 on the tape, or the scroll, right?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And then you were there almost another hour, or 45
minutes to an hour with Detective Sterling questioning you, right?
A. If that's the detective's name on the documents here, yes.
Q. Well, I'm not sure it is detective. But in any event, directing your
attention to --
MR. WEINGLASS: What is the C number?
Page 101.
Dessie Hightower - Redirect
THE COURT OFFICER: C-11. This one.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Showing you C-11: That's not your handwriting on that document, is
it?
A. My signature.
Q. But not your handwriting?
A. No, it's not.
Q. So it was the police or the detective who interviewed
you who wrote down what you allegedly said?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they tape record you?
A. I don't remember, Counselor.
Q. Have you ever seen the tape?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know if they have tape recorders in a police station?
A. I would assume so.
Q. And you were, if I recall correctly, you were in your
first year at Temple at that time, or had been to Temple?
A. Community College.
Q. Community College for how long?
A. I think it was like my second or third semester, I can't remember
back.
Page 102.
Dessie Hightower - Redirect
Q. Did anyone ask you to write down what you saw in your own
handwriting?
A. I believe so. I think it's here.
Q. Is this any... (displaying). Would you, would you give me --
A. C-12.
Q. C-12. And that's what you read, or was read into the
record. I didn't see any shooting but I heard three shots close together,
then two later.
A. Yes, I'm reading with you.
Q. Pardon?
A. Yes, I see it.
Q. That's all that you were asked to write that night?
A. No, it's... it's more here. After that there's more.
Q. Right. But it's all that is contained on C-ll?
A. Oh, excuse me, that's C-12.
Q. C-12?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, when you used the word conducive, is it possible
here in Court you meant to say consistent?
A. Well, to -- yes.
Q. You were saying the same thing consistently?
Page 103.
Dessie Hightower - Recross
A. Yes.
Q. You never altered what you said you saw that night?
A. No, I didn't, Counselor.
Q. And what you saw that night is you saw, you heard
shots, you saw a man run away, and then the police arrived?
A. Yes, that's what I am saying, Counselor.
MR. WEINGLASS: I have no further questions.
MR. GRANT: Briefly.
- - - - -
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
- - - - -
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. The person you described, sir, you said that you saw
run away was a five-foot-eleven to six-foot person, right?
A. I said black male.
Q. Well, at one point you said black male and I read you what you said
at trial. Okay?
A. Okay, person.
Q. Person.
A. Person.
Q. Five-foot-eleven to six-foot person, Jamaican
Page 104.
Dessie Hightower - Recross
possibly. What's that mean?
A. Because of the dreadlocks, I believe I seen flapping up and down as
the person ran away.
Q. Oh, the person had dreadlocks flapping?
A. Seemed to be.
Q. Seemed to be?
A. Seemed to be.
Q. Okay. By the way, the police took you to the wagon
where they had Mr. Jamal right there at 12th and Locust and they asked to
you look in?
(Pause.)
Q. Do you recall that?
A. I am trying to but I can't recall that though.
Q. You described that person you saw running seemed to
have dreadlocks, who could have been approximately six-foot tall, and they
had a red-and-black sweater, right?
A. The person that was running was running towards 12th
and Locust. Mr. Jamal was on the corner of 13th and Locust. I do
believe.
Q. He was on the corner of 13th and Locust?
A. I do believe.
Q. What was he doing there?
A. I don't know, I just seen the police officers after
they apprehended him beating him up putting him
Page 105.
Dessie Hightower - Recross
in the wagon.
Q. Oh, I see. Did Mr. Jamal have dreadlocks that night?
A. I can't remember, Counselor.
Q. Oh. Was he about six-foot that night?
A. Is he six-foot now? I don't know.
Q. Oh. What color is my suit?
A. It's a dark-colored suit. If it is black or, I don't know if it is
black or navy blue.
Q. Right. Did you know that Mr. Jamal was wearing a
red-and-black shell with a dark blue shirt, had dreadlocks and was about
six feet tall that night?
MR. WEINGLASS: Counsel has problems with color, not the witness.
THE COURT: Counselor, this is cross-examination. You brought it up.
MR. WEINGLASS: He is misrepresenting now the evidence in the case.
MR. GRANT: Okay. I will say that on property receipt
854920, which was admitted into evidence and is part of this record, made
available to Mr. Weinglass, that's what was admitted.
BY MR. GRANT:
Page 106.
Dessie Hightower - Recross
Q. Did you see Mr. Jamal that night with that clothing on?
A. I can't recall that, sir. Being honest with you. I
can't say that yeah, I seen him with that sweater on, no, I can't say
that. You remember you asked me to be honest and I am telling you.
Q. Okay, did you see two people with dreadlocks about six-foot
tall?
A. I said I seen one person.
Q. You didn't see two people wearing the same things looking like
twins, did you?
A. No, now you are confusing me, no.
Q. You are not confused, sir. You didn't see two?
A. I just said you are confusing me and you are telling me I am not
confused.
Q. You only saw one person that night wearing the clothing I
described?
A. In that area, yes.
Q. In that area?
A. That is correct, towards 12th and Locust Street.
Q. And later on, before you went down to the police
station, did you see another person looking the same way with the same
clothing and dreadlocks
Page 107.
about six-foot?
A. No, I didn't.
MR. GRANT: Thank you very much.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: All right, we will recess for lunch until, what's that?
2:15.
THE COURT OFFICER: This Court will take a luncheon recess until
2:15.
(Luncheon recess was held from 1:l0 p.m. to 2:45 p.m.)
THE COURT: Good afternoon, everyone. Next witness.
MR. WEINGLASS: If it please the Court: This morning we
received the Court's order dated August 2nd quashing subpoenas on 11
individuals: Kracoff, Bell, Cranshaw, Campbell, McAllister, Kenney,
Heftner, William Hinkel, Cook, Dunn and Bob.
Am I permitted to re-argue any of these or --
THE COURT: No, you were told then if you want to bring
Anthony Jackson back, bring him back. All right, we will --
Page 108.
MR. WEINGLASS: I'm sorry.
THE COURT: Who are you going to call now?
Trial attorney Anthony Jackson, do you want to bring him back to lay a
foundation?
MR. WEINGLASS: I heard the name, I didn't hear what the Court said
before.
THE COURT: I said do you want to bring him back?
MR. WEINGLASS: Anthony Jackson?
THE COURT: Right.
MR. WEINGLASS: We are attempting to locate him.
THE COURT: Okay, fine, but who are you going to call now?
MR. WEINGLASS: Well, there are people on this list, and the Court
--
THE COURT: Well, Counselor, yesterday you told me that
there were three you were going to call today: Deborah Kordansky, Dessie
Hightower, and William Thomas. I have that down here. Now, which one of
those two remaining are you going to call now?
MR. WEINGLASS: We also have some of the witnesses, we didn't know their
subpoenas
Page 109.
were going to be quashed until we came here. The witnesses --
THE COURT: No, you were told that yesterday. You were told that
yesterday. Please.
MR. WEINGLASS: Well, not as to all of these.
THE COURT: Yes. All of those.
MR. WEINGLASS: So their subpoenas are quashed?
THE COURT: Right. Kenney, Heftner, Hinkel Cook, Dunn, and
Howard Bob, okay. And you said you were going to call these three today so
let's call them.
MR. GRANT: Could I have the Court's indulgence for one moment,
please?
THE COURT: Yes, if it will expedite things.
(Discussion was held off the record at
this time
between Commonwealth and defense Counsel.)
MR. WEINGLASS: We are ready to proceed.
THE COURT: Okay, which one?
(Discussion was held off the record at
this time
between defense Counsel.)
Page 110.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
MR. WEINGLASS: Sorry, Your Honor.
THE COURT: That's all right, which one?
MR. WILLIAMS: Good afternoon, Your Honor. The Petitioner calls...
William Thomas.
THE COURT: Okay.
- - - - -
William E. Thomas, having been duly
sworn, was examined
and testified as follows:
- - - - -
DIRECT EXAMINATION
- - - - -
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Thomas.
A. Good afternoon.
MR. GRANT: Before we start, Your Honor: Since he is not
an affiant, and there has never been an offer of proof, and he hasn't
given any statements, I would like to know the parameters of where we are
going with this witness.
THE COURT: I thought they had given you that.
Page 111.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
MR. GRANT: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Tell him.
(Discussion was held off the record at
this time
between Commonwealth and defense Counsel.)
MR. GRANT: Your Honor, there is apparently a wide-ranging
list of events that Counsel would like Mr. Thomas to testify to, many of
which were covered at the time of trial. However, he does say that this
witness will testify as to whether or not a Commonwealth eyewitness
Cynthia White was given police protection while she plied her craft, which
I think is legitimate.
He also is indicating that he wants to ask him about
photo IDS; and Mr. Harkins, their witness, established there were
none.
And he wants to ask him about selectivity in the
selection of polygraph examination interviewees, which I think is
improper.
So I am going to move to object, except as to whether or
not police protection was provided for Cynthia White, whether there was a
plea agreement with Cynthia White. And
Page 112.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
anything about polygraphs I think is totally speculative.
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, the issue of the polygraphs is
the extension of what we heard this morning from Mr. Hightower. And the
claim is in our Petition that there was bias in the investigation of this
case. We root that claim in a new Supreme, United States Supreme Court
decision, the decision of Kyles versus Whitley, which apparently expanded
the concept of Brady to encompass a claim of bias in the investigation.
And we take advantage of that new ruling in Kyles versus Whitley in our
Petition.
And part of that, part of that claim is that in the
selective use of polygraph examination. That buttresses our claim of bias
in the investigation in as much as the polygraph was used solely on an
accounting student, that is Mr. Hightower, and not on other witnesses, all
of whom had criminal records. In particular, most egregiously, Cynthia
White.
So we intend to inquire into that to support our Kyles
versus Whitley bias in the investigation claim.
Page 113.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
MR. GRANT: I object. The reason I object, Your Honor, is
the reason Mr. Hightower testified is because they said he passed a
polygraph and we say no you didn't. Now they want to talk about well why
did you pick him in the first place. But that is not the issue they raised
in their claim. Their claim is you kept from us the fact that he passed
the polygraph -- even though it is not admissible in Court -- that still
would have made us believe him better, I guess.
MR. WILLIAMS: That is just not true. Our Petition is
clear that we raise the claim of bias in the investigation. How they
treated Cynthia White was one prong of that.
THE COURT: Well, what is your problem? I don't see --
MR. WILLIAMS: So I am offering, giving an offer of proof as to areas of
inquiry for Mr. Thomas.
THE COURT: You mean this officer has the authority to
decide who takes a polygraph and who doesn't?
MR. WILLIAMS: That's what I want to inquire.
Page 114.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
THE COURT: Why didn't you talk to him before so you could
have filed some sort of affidavit here before? To me it looks like almost
--
MR. GRANT: A fishing expedition.
THE COURT: A fishing expedition, sure. You should have
talked to him before, found out what he knows.
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, we have testimony from Mr.
Thomas from the trial where he describes himself as the hub of the wheel.
The wheel being the investigation and he was the hub. He was in charge of
this investigation. Based upon that sworn testimony in the trial, we have
reason to believe that he is competent and equipped to answer questions as
to what was happening in an investigation that was under his auspices.
MR. GRANT: I would just object as the questions I feel
are objectionable arise, rather than stand here.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WILLIAMS: May I inquire, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, please.
Page 115.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Mr. Thomas, I am feeling a little under the weather
and I don't have the benefit of a microphone so --
THE COURT: That's all right, you shout pretty loud. You
are not as quiet as Mr. Grant. Mr. Grant needs a microphone, you
don't.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, I've never had a problem hearing Mr. Grant.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Mr. Thomas, can you tell us what your current occupation is?
MR. GRANT: Objection as to relevance.
MR. WILLIAMS: I am only, this is so someone reading this record could
know who is the witness.
THE COURT: If you want to find out if he is still a police officer, ask
him.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. What is your occupation, sir?
MR. GRANT: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I am --
MR. GRANT: Judge, the record knows he is a retired police officer who
was the assigned
Page 116.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
detective. That's all the record needs to know. We don't
need to know where he works or who he is.
THE COURT: He is a retired police officer. Let's go, come on.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. You are a retired police officer, sir?
A. I am a retired detective, sir.
Q. When did you retire?
A. The last day of February, 1989.
Q. And how long were you with the Philadelphia police force?
A. Counting my military time, approximately 24 years.
Q. Now, have you had discussions with the prosecution team in this
matter since June 5th, 1995?
MR. GRANT: I object to the characterization. What is that: Prosecutor
team?
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. The District Attorney's Office, pardon me. Have you
had discussions with the District Attorney's Office since June 5th,
1995?
A. No, sir. Several members, police detectives that are
present in and around the Courtroom now are
Page 117.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
personal friends of mine outside of this jurisdiction.
And I have had conversations with them. But nothing involving these
proceedings or this incident.
Q. So you have never discussed this proceeding with any
member of the District Attorney's Office since the filing of the PCRA?
A. I don't know when that's filed.
Q. June 5th, 1995.
A. Not any of the particulars or anything like that, you
know. Like at lunch time I mean I may talk with one of the detectives
about years gone by when we worked on several other cases, stuff like
that. But, no, none of the facts.
Q. Now, would you share with us and for the benefit of
the record what role did you play in the Faulkner shooting investigation
back in late 1991 and -- I'm sorry -- 1981 and 1982?
A. I was the assigned detective. I was assigned by my
supervisor in the Homicide Unit to handle this investigation.
Q. What does it mean to be assigned to handle the investigation?
A. The assigned detective is, you would be responsible for all of the
paperwork, the reports, et
Page 118.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
cetera, that they be compiled, put together and
disseminated to the D.A.'s Office and other pertinent units or what have
you.
Q. What role did you play in terms of how the investigation was
conducted?
(Pause.)
A. Well, investigation was conducted under the
supervision of my supervisor at that time, which would have been, I
believe, Sergeant Givens and I think Lieutenant McGowan, they would have
been the overall supervisors.
Q. Do you recall in the trial of this matter back in 1982
describing yourself as the hub of the wheel in the investigation?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What does that mean: The hub of the wheel?
A. In other words, in Homicide in a squad you have
numerous separate detectives, you have separate supervisors. When you're
assigned to a particular investigation, that is your investigation. All of
the detectives in your particular squad, or in this case you may have 1
squad and 3 squad, I'm going to look at almost every interview or
everything that comes in in the particular case and what have you. Whereas
a certain detective in 1 squad may only see
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
what he does, I may see all of it.
Q. So if I understand you correctly, being the hub of
this wheel permitted you to have an overview of the direction of this
investigation?
A. Somewhat, but not as much as my supervisor would have because they
were able to be stationary.
Q. And how about the scope of the investigation? Were you
able to, during the time that you were the hub of this wheel?
A. I don't understand the question.
Q. The scope of the investigation.
THE COURT: He said he didn't understand your question.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. You don't understand what I mean by the scope of the
investigation?
A. No, sir.
Q. Well, did you have an understanding as to how many
detectives and investigators were interviewing witnesses?
A. No, sir, that would be something for a supervisor to know.
Q. So you didn't know that?
A. I would have an idea.
Q. And what was that idea?
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
A. But I would not -- excuse me.
Q. What was your idea as to how many, how much manpower was devoted to
the investigation?
A. You are talking about on the specific night of the incident?
Q. No, the investigation was ongoing, was it not, after the
incident?
A. An investigation in a Homicide Unit will use any and
all parts of the Homicide Unit that the supervisors feel that are
necessary. And anything that's within the Police Department.
Q. And what was your understanding as to how much was necessary?
A. That doesn't go into the scope of me as a detective, that's the
supervision.
Q. So you did not know?
A. I may have been aware of who was working on what, but
the scope of how many people, that's not within my duties as an
investigator or detective.
Q. Now, did you assist the assigned prosecutor in this case, a Mr.
McGill, during the course of the trial itself?
A. Yes, I was with Joe McGill during the trial.
Q. What was your assignment or duties during that period of the
case?
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
(Pause.)
A. I was subpoenaed to come to Court. I bring the
records, a file like this (indicating), this is what we call, we have
numerous reports, documents, photos, et cetera. And the originals et
cetera are in my file. And I have to keep tabs. If somebody wants page 1,
or property receipt number 99, I've got to be able to locate it and I have
to have that there. You know, any number of things that I may have to do
while I'm on subpoena from the D.A.'s Office.
Q. So to effectively assist Mr. McGill during the course
of the trial, you had to be familiar with all the police reports that were
prepared in this case?
A. I have probably seen every report that was prepared in this case,
that's correct.
Q. Now -- pardon me, Mr. Thomas.
(Discussion was held off the record at
this time among
defense Counsel.)
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Now, during the course of the investigation prior to
the commencement of the trial, did you attempt to keep abreast of how the
investigation was going?
(Pause.)
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
A. What do you mean by that, Counselor?
Q. Well, did you try to keep abreast of the status of the
investigation: Whether all the witnesses that needed to be talked to were
talked to, whether witnesses had to be re interviewed, things of that
sort?
A. The scope of usually determining whether someone is to
be re interviewed, et cetera, is usually determined by the supervisor.
Q. Who was that supervisor, Mr. Thomas?
MR. GRANT: Objection: Asked and answered. Herbert Givens and Lieutenant
McGowan.
MR. WILLIAMS: Very well, I will accept that answer from Mr. Grant.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Now, you mentioned the police reports. And that you
were familiar with all the police reports. Can you tell us -- pardon
me.
(Discussion was held off the record at
this time
between defense Counsel.)
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Can you tell us why the addresses of the civilian
witnesses were redacted from those police reports?
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
MR. GRANT: He could if he were the Judge. That was
redacted, Your Honor, and ordered to be so. So I object.
THE COURT: Objection is sustained.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Could you tell us when the addresses were redacted, Mr. Thomas?
MR. GRANT: I object. That is an irrelevancy since that is
not a decision of the investigator in any event.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, if he knows.
MR. GRANT: I think it is irrelevant if he knows.
MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Grant is representing to the Court
these addresses were redacted pursuant to a Court order. My understanding
is that order was given on April 1st, 1982.
THE COURT: Don't you think the District Attorney is also
involved in it? He is not the Judge. He was in Court.
MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Thomas is here, I would like to know if it happened
prior to April 1st, 1982.
THE COURT: Why don't you say that.
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
MR. WILLIAMS: I am asking when.
MR. GRANT: May I ask what claim this is supposed to advance that they
haven't noticed us on?
MR. WILLIAMS: The ineffective assistance of Counsel. Mr.
Jackson testified ad nauseam about the fact that addresses were redacted.
And it impeded efforts to perform as a competent attorney.
MR. GRANT: He gave a very specific offer of proof. Now,
of course, this is not one of the many offers that he's made to me, but I
object to it because it's beyond the scope of what his own offer is, and,
furthermore, it is irrelevant.
THE COURT: You see, you didn't give it in written form
here. Stick with what you told the District Attorney you were going to
prove with this witness. Stick to that. You made a statement to him.
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor is barring me from asking questions about
that?
THE COURT: I am not barring you from anything. If you had
properly done what you should have done he would have had all this
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
information. He only found out just awhile ago what you
hoped to prove by this witness. Now, you gave him a statement, stick
within that statement.
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, they've had our Petition since June 5th.
THE COURT: They may have but you never gave them anything
in writing. You never gave them an affidavit or anything as to what you
intend to prove by this witness until right this moment. And I told you
before, at the beginning, I wanted you to do this.
MR. WILLIAMS: From the very outset of this case --
THE COURT: From the outset of this case I told you to
give them the list of names and give them written statements of what you
hoped to prove. You didn't do that with this witness and you evidently
didn't do it with a lot of other witnesses. You said to the D.A. now you
were going to go into a certain area and I am limiting you to that area,
okay.
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor --
THE COURT: Counselor, I have made a ruling. You have an exception to my
ruling.
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
Now let's proceed, okay.
MR. WILLIAMS: Very well.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Being the hub of the wheel of this investigation, Mr.
Thomas, were you aware of whether any witnesses expressed a reluctance to
assist in the investigation, that is to offer a statement as to what was
or was not observed at the time of the incident?
MR. GRANT: I would ask that he be specific as to which
party, the Defendant or the Commonwealth, as to whether they were
reluctant to offer assistance.
MR. WILLIAMS: Oh, I'm sorry.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. To any law enforcement personnel, any witnesses
express reluctance to law enforcement personnel who were investigating the
shooting death of Officer Faulkner?
A. Let me make sure I have this straight, Counselor. You
are asking me if I know of any civilian witnesses who reported to myself
or other police personnel that they were reluctant to testify in this
matter?
Q. Or just to assist, that is to offer a
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
statement.
A. At this juncture, I don't recall of any. I don't recall of any.
Q. Was Cynthia White available and willing to assist in
the investigation of this matter, or did she ever express a
reluctance?
A. Cynthia White had some fears from certain retaliations
but she never mentioned to me not wanting to testify.
Q. Did she ever express reluctance to discuss what she
allegedly observed on December 9th, 1981 with any law enforcement
personnel?
MR. GRANT: Objection. Calls for speculation on his part.
MR. WILLIAMS: Unless he is the law enforcement personnel.
If he knows. I am only asking if he knows.
MR. GRANT: Withdrawn.
THE COURT: Okay.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. If you know, sir?
A. The word in there that keeps getting me sort of
unclear on your question is reluctance. In other words, you're asking me
to determine her reluctance?
Q. Yes. Did she express any?
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
A. Not reluctance, no.
Q. She expressed fear?
A. There was an indication that she did do that, that is correct.
Q. Okay.
(Discussion was held off the record at
this time among
defense Counsel.)
MR. GRANT: Could I ask Mr. Thomas to pull the microphone closer so we
could hear him.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, Counselor.
MR. GRANT: Thank you, sir.
THE COURT: Mr. Williams, please will you come over here. Could we move
forward.
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You are wasting a lot of time.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, Your Honor, I am trying --
THE COURT: I said luncheon was supposed to be 2:15. You
didn't start until 2:45. So let's try to move along.
MR. WILLIAMS: I am trying to be as complete and as careful as I must
be.
THE COURT: Well, we know that but let's move along.
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. You were present at the trial of this matter, were you not?
A. Counselor, during this case I was outside the door and
what transpired inside the door for the most part I could not comment on.
I wouldn't know from personal knowledge.
Q. Were there times, Mr. Thomas, where you sat at the
prosecution table during the course of the trial?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what determined when you would do that?
MR. GRANT: Objection as to relevance. And as to what area that purports
to support.
THE COURT: Rephrase your question somehow.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Well, let me put it this way. Were you aware that a
witness by the name of Veronica Jones testified in the trial of this
matter?
MR. GRANT: Objection: Cynthia White was his offer of
proof as to the bias on behalf of the Commonwealth.
MR. WILLIAMS: If Your Honor will indulge me just a few
questions and you will see the relevance of this, Your Honor.
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
MR. GRANT: I think I know the relevancy right now. The
same relevance that was brought out here in the course of the trial when
he was having Veronica Jones say what was in the mind of Cynthia White as
to what treatment she would get. That's been litigated.
MR. WILLIAMS: I am not going to inquire into that.
MR. GRANT: Well, this is an irrelevant line of questioning.
THE COURT: Why don't you stick to what you told the D.A. you hoped to
prove.
MR. WILLIAMS: I am going precisely into that.
THE COURT: Well, he says that is not so.
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor has a peculiar way of always finding --
THE COURT: Counselor, please, I do not know what you said
to him because I was not privy to that discussion.
MR. WILLIAMS: But you are willing to accept what he says
willy-nilly.
THE COURT: Are you calling him a liar?
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
MR. WILLIAMS: No.
THE COURT: Are you calling him a liar?
MR. WILLIAMS: I am not calling my friend a liar.
THE COURT: Okay. You spoke to him. I wasn't part of that
conversation.
MR. WILLIAMS: But I may have a difference of opinion as to what was
represented.
THE COURT: Well, talk to him about it. I can only go by
what he said about the area that you were going to cover. Now cover that
area. Maybe I should have let you say it so the record could have it.
MR. WILLIAMS: I am trying to do that.
THE COURT: Well, then do it.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Mr. Thomas, were you aware, were you aware that
Veronica Jones testified that she was offered the same deal as Cynthia
White: that is that she would be allowed to prostitute herself without
fear of arrest, were you aware of that?
A. No, sir, I wasn't aware of nothing like that.
Q. You were unaware of that fact?
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
A. At this juncture, yeah, I was either unaware of it or I don't recall
it, sir.
Q. You are either unaware of it or you don't recall it?
A. I don't recall it.
Q. Had you had -- withdrawn. Now, your understanding was
that Cynthia White was a prostitute; is that true?
A. That's correct.
Q. And was your understanding that Veronica Jones was also a
prostitute?
A. At this juncture I don't remember who Veronica Jones
is, what her part is in the case. Counselor, you are going 13, 14 years
back. And the number of people that was interviewed at that time, like I
said, I didn't even peruse anyone's file, I came here at your request. And
all --
Q. Okay.
A. And I couldn't recall any, all the names that was in these
files.
Q. Fair enough. Let me ask you this. In your experience as a seasoned,
retired detective --
THE COURT: He means retired as a detective.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, he has been
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
retired for quite some time.
THE COURT: I know that, but what is the seasoned? You mean before he
retired?
MR. WILLIAMS: No, he was a seasoned detective and now he is a seasoned
retired detective.
THE COURT: Oh. I am a Senior seasoned retired Judge?
MR. WILLIAMS: I won't venture to speculate on that.
THE COURT: Oh, okay.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. But nonetheless, as an individual with many years of
experience in law enforcement, is it your experience that prostitutes are
vulnerable to police pressure because they can be arrested for attempting
to earn a livelihood?
MR. GRANT: I object. As opposed to dope dealers and murderers?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
MR. GRANT: And pimps and thieves?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
MR. GRANT: Obviously, he is not a psychiatrist, he is not
qualified as an expert in that field. So I think the question is
Page 134.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct ludicrous, Your
Honor, and I object to it.
MR. WILLIAMS: I think law enforcement --
THE COURT: Why don't you get right to the heart of it.
MR. WILLIAMS: This is the heart of it.
THE COURT: No, the heart of it is did he do anything. Is that what you
are saying?
MR. WILLIAMS: Not at all, Your Honor. I am not suggesting that at
all.
THE COURT: Well, what are you suggesting?
MR. WILLIAMS: If Your Honor had read the Petition and the memorandum of
law you would know.
THE COURT: Counselor, I don't know what you told him you
were going to prove. If you want to make a public announcement and tell me
what you intend to prove with this witness then I would be in a better
position, because I was not privy to your private conversation.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Mister --
THE COURT: Are you going to give me
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
that or not?
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, I don't want to do it in front of the witness.
THE COURT: Well, that's why I told you to talk to him in private.
MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Grant stood up and reported the
substance of our conversation to Your Honor.
MR. GRANT: I did, Your Honor. And it didn't include any
of this. Every time I object it's because it's not what he purported to
represent to me.
MR. WILLIAMS: With Your Honor's indulgence.
(Discussion was held off the record at
this time
between Commonwealth and defense Counsel.)
THE COURT: Do you see why I want you to put it in writing
before you call any of these witnesses? So that the D.A. will have it, I
will have a copy of it, I will know where you are going to go. Would you
please do that in the future. I told you that at the very beginning of
this case.
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor --
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
THE COURT: Just remember what I said, all right. In the future please
get it in writing.
MR. WILLIAMS: What mystifies me is that is what we offered at the very
beginning.
THE COURT: Counselor, you did not put it in writing. I
don't have anything in writing. He doesn't have anything in writing. Would
you please do that in the future.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Now, Mr. Thomas, is it fair to say that the livelihood
of prostitutes depends upon whether they can avoid arrest?
MR. GRANT: Objection. Unless he is a prostitute.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. In your experience in law enforcement, is that your
understanding?
MR. GRANT: Objection.
THE COURT: Is it what?
MR. WILLIAMS: That their livelihood depends upon their ability to avoid
being arrested.
THE COURT: I don't know, their livelihood is catching somebody that is
willing
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
to pay. If they don't have anybody that is willing to
pay, whether they get arrested or not is not going to affect it at
all.
MR. WILLIAMS: Certainly if they get --
THE COURT: They have to have somebody that is willing to pay.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. And to be able to elicit somebody who is willing to
pay for their services, they also have to avoid being arrested; is that
true?
MR. GRANT: Your Honor, I object to this line of questioning.
THE COURT: I don't think necessarily that that's true. I
think they consider that as a sort of taxation. If you want to get into
the specifics of this case here, that's a different story.
Let's find out what they did as to this. Not hypothetical
questions. Because I could answer them for you.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Now, earlier in this proceeding we heard testimony
from a Mr. Greer, who testified that he observed Miss White attempting to
elicit the
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
services, elicit customers but with the protection of certain law
enforcement personnel.
MR. GRANT: Objection. That's not true. The record
reflects that he saw Miss White on a street corner standing there with two
people in a red car beside her.
THE COURT: That's what he said.
MR. GRANT: There was no solicitation testimony.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Were you aware that there were two individuals parked
near Miss White on numerous occasions? Were you aware of that?
A. First of all, I didn't hear the, umm, testimony. But
to your comment of -- I'm not aware of two people in a car watching Mrs.
White -- Miss White.
Q. You were not aware of that?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Were you at all involved in the questioning of Miss White?
A. Counselor, there was so many interviews in this case.
Which ones I was involved in at this juncture, you'd have to look at the
interview. Normally we would acknowledge who was present in the
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
interview and all. For me to tell you. You know, I spoke
with Miss White on many occasions, but whether I was there with these
interviews or whatever, I can't remember.
Q. Okay, you indicated that Miss White was interviewed on
many occasions. Certain individuals were interviewed on more than one
occasion?
A. No, correction: I just said that I spoke with Mrs.
White on several occasions. I didn't say interview, I said spoke.
Q. Okay, spoke. So I will rephrase my question. Certain
individuals were spoken to on more than one occasion in connection with
this case? Is that true?
A. A lot of my conversation with Miss White may not have
been in reference to this particular case; it may have been a personal
conversation between two human beings.
Q. Do you recall what Miss White looks like?
A. I haven't seen Miss White I guess since this case, or maybe a year
or so after this case.
Q. But at the time, back in 1981 and '82?
A. I have her pictured in my mind somewhat. I think she was sort of a
slender young lady.
Q. Could you share that with us, that picture in your mind?
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
A. I really... would not like to try to describe someone.
Because in my mind, when I try to go back 13 or 14 years, 12 years,
whatever it is, I picture her one time maybe in slacks, maybe one time in
a dress. She was tall, maybe five-foot-three, five-foot-four, slender
build, maybe 100 pounds, something like that, brown-skin young lady.
That's what I have in my head maybe. I can't describe to you verbally at
all but that's the best I could come up with right now.
Q. Was she white or was she an African American?
A. She was a black lady.
Q. Do you recall the complexion of her skin: Dark, light skin?
MR. GRANT: Objection: Asked and answered. He said she has brown
skin.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Now, were certain individuals interviewed, as opposed
to spoken to, interviewed by law enforcement in connection with this
case?
A. When you say were certain individuals interviewed in
regards to this case, I have no idea who you are talking about.
Q. Well, I'm asking were there certain civilian witnesses interviewed
on more than one occasion?
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
A. In my binder -- we make up a binder in Homicide. Each
individual who was interviewed. And each one of their interviews was
placed in this binder. There's also a section in this binder for all
documents related to the criminal lab, to the ballistics lab. There's also
another section in there for property receipts concerning firearms, and
other documentation, et cetera, and all. There's also a section in this
thing for photographs, et cetera, et cetera, from the crime lab, that was
taken from the crime scene. So there were some people interviewed more
than one time.
Q. That's what I am asking you.
A. Which ones they would be or if they were interviewed
more than one time, I would have to look at that binder to tell you.
Q. I am not asking for particular individuals but you
just indicated certain individuals were interviewed on more than one
occasion?
A. Certain individuals may have been interviewed. If they
were interviewed their interview would be in the binder.
Q. Okay. Now, do you know if Cynthia White in particular
was interviewed on more than one occasion?
A. Counselor, at this juncture I couldn't tell
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
you how many times Cynthia White was interviewed or anyone else.
Q. Did you regard Miss White as an important witness for the
prosecution?
A. A witness is a witness. Every witness is important.
Q. Are some witnesses more important than others?
MR. GRANT: Objection: Asked and answered.
MR. WILLIAMS: I don't think it is.
THE COURT: He said one witness is as important as another witness.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Were you implying it to mean that they are equally important?
MR. GRANT: Objection. Sounds like the spoken words.
MR. WILLIAMS: I am following up as a lawyer ought to, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Is that his job or is that the job of the
District Attorney: To decide which witness is more important than somebody
else? He is not going to try the case. Is he going to try the case?
MR. WILLIAMS: No, my understanding
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
is, and it is an elementary one, is that law enforcement makes
judgments about the qualities of witnesses.
THE COURT: Well, I don't think the detective decides
that. The D.A. decides who they will prosecute, who they are not going to
prosecute.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Let me put it to the witness, then: Do you as an
investigator make determinations as to the qualities of different
witnesses, whether one witness is more truthful than another, or more
credible than another witness, do you do that in law enforcement?
MR. GRANT: I would object. If he doesn't he doesn't. He can't speak for
the world.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. I am asking you as a law enforce --
THE COURT: Are you asking him if he did that?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
THE COURT: Oh. Then why don't you rephrase your question.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Did you as a detective make evaluations of
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
witnesses in the fashion that I described?
A. As a detective I've always worked under the precept
that you locate, interview and put on paper every witness that you can
find, all the evidence that you can find, and it will be coming to a place
like this and these people that will sit over there, or a judge that will
sit here, and you counselors will be there, and will give the decision on
what is facts and what isn't facts. A detective's job is just to get the
facts, get the witnesses, put them out there. I don't, I don't judge
anything further than that.
Q. So it is your understanding as a law enforcement
officer that it's important -- pardon me -- that it's important for the
jury to hear all of those facts that you can gather; is that true?
A. That's not the scope of my job, sir. My job is just to
find the facts, find the witnesses, and turn them over...
Q. To the District Attorney?
A. To the District Attorney.
Q. And some of those facts concerned Mr. Wakshul, right?
MR. GRANT: Here we go.
THE COURT: Okay, I will have to
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
sustain that.
MR. GRANT: Did you mention Mr. Wakshul to me, Mr. Williams?
MR. WILLIAMS: I did.
MR. GRANT: Okay, then I object.
MR. WILLIAMS: On what grounds? It goes to one of our claims.
MR. GRANT: On what grounds are you asking him about Mr. Wakshul?
MR. WILLIAMS: It is supporting our claims on Mr. Wakshul and what he
testified to.
MR. GRANT: The claim they brought for Mr. Wakshul was he
went on vacation and he wasn't allowed. Now, what's he got to do with
that?
MR. WILLIAMS: That's why I am inquiring, Your Honor, that's why I am
inquiring.
MR. GRANT: I object.
THE COURT: Objection is well taken.
MR. WILLIAMS: We have a valid claim, Your Honor, a viable
claim, and we have foundational testimony from Mr. Wakshul. And now I have
another witness on the stand and you're barring me from inquiring into it.
Is my
Page 146.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
understanding correct?
THE COURT: Are you saying he knows where Mr. Wakshul was?
MR. WILLIAMS: I am not. I am inquiring into it.
THE COURT: Well, did you put that in writing for the
D.A.? You see the problem we have here. If you gave a list to me in the
very beginning and put it in writing what you hope to prove by the
witnesses, he would then have it.
MR. WILLIAMS: What Your Honor is suggesting is that for every --
THE COURT: I am suggesting that if you had done that in
the beginning, just as you did with the other affidavits that you filed
--
MR. WILLIAMS: I am not going to quibble with the Court.
The Court is barring me from inquiring into it, then so be it.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor is barring me?
THE COURT: He made an objection, I sustained it.
MR. WILLIAMS: Very well.
THE COURT: If you consider that
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
barring you, then I'm barring you. But I don't consider that as barring
you.
MR. WILLIAMS: After yesterday, in view of yesterday I could only accept
it as a bar.
THE COURT: You could accept it either way, but when
somebody makes an objection I will either sustain it or overrule it.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Getting back to Cynthia White, Detective Thomas, was
Cynthia White arrested between the dates of December 9th, 1981 and June of
1982?
A. Was Cynthia White arrested between December?
Q. Was she ever arrested, yes?
A. I have no idea.
Q. You do not?
A. At this juncture, you know, I don't, I don't know
whether Cynthia White was arrested, no, I don't. I don't. You know, you
are asking me to give you a time between a 12-month span 12 years ago was
someone arrested. I don't know.
Q. Okay. Do you know, as the hub of the wheel of this
investigation, how Miss White, a transient and a prostitute, was monitored
to insure her availability at trial?
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
MR. GRANT: Objection. She had a fixed abode, she was not
a transient. Based on the record of this trial.
MR. WILLIAMS: That may very well be Mr. Thomas' answer.
THE COURT: He is objecting to how you phrased your
question. If you could rephrase your question somehow that it is not
objectionable then go ahead.
MR. WILLIAMS: My question was how was she monitored to assure
availability.
THE COURT: You're assuming that she was monitored.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, if they had her address then that's fine, that is a
form of monitoring.
THE COURT: No, it is not. The fact that I am a witness
and I give them my address, does that mean that they are going to monitor
me?
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Mr. Thomas, how did you as the hub of the wheel of
this investigation satisfy yourself that Miss White would be available to
testify at trial?
A. I prefer to be called the assigned detective,
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
sir. But as far as availability, I give the witness to
the D.A.'s Office, the D.A. has D.A. detectives to serve the subpoenas and
get their witnesses in.
Q. I see. So you played no role in insuring that
witnesses and the whereabouts of those witnesses were known to the
assigned District Attorney?
A. No, sir. Here, this was not the only case that I had
then or thereafter in Homicide. Everyday you have a wheel and everyday
someone else gets assigned to another case. And you can't just go around
and what you want me to say. I can't just follow people around, whatever
you want me to say I'm doing.
Q. I understand that, Mr. Thomas. But what I am saying is
you would transmit the police reports that were prepared for a witness
such as Miss White and then the assigned District Attorney then has the
burden and obligation of assuring that witnesses' availability; is that
your understanding?
A. It is the responsibility of the D.A.'s Office to get
the witnesses in. They subpoena who they want in. You subpoenaed me.
Q. Okay. So the District Attorney bears that responsibility?
A. That is correct. Or the defense attorney.
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
Q. Or the defense attorney?
A. Each of you have the equal thing to go to the judge and ask for a
subpoena.
Q. Now, are you aware and were you aware back in 1981 and
1982 that members of the Philadelphia Police Department had the capacity
to administer polygraph examinations?
A. We had a polygraph unit in the Philadelphia Police Department back
then, that is correct.
Q. And which police officers or law enforcement personnel
administer those polygraph examinations?
A. Honestly, at this juncture I can't recall.
Q. Back in 1981 and '82.
A. Like I said, I don't know, I don't remember.
Q. Do you know what kind of training those police
officers have who administer those polygraph examinations?
A. No, sir, I have no idea what their qualifications for their job
is.
Q. Do you know anything about the validity or the method
of appropriately administering a polygraph examination?
MR. GRANT: Your Honor, if he is qualifying him, or
attempting to qualify him as a polygrapher, then I object. It's beyond
the
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
scope of what his offer of proof was.
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, I told Mr. Grant that I would inquire into
the area of polygraphs.
MR. GRANT: No, you didn't. You told me you would inquire
into the bias of selectively using the polygraph. Well, let's get to
it.
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, I am going into that.
THE COURT: He is talking about qualifications. He doesn't
hire anybody to be a polygraph operator.
MR. WILLIAMS: I am simply --
THE COURT: The City of Philadelphia does, and they have records as to
the qualifications.
MR. WILLIAMS: Is Your Honor barring me from inquiring?
THE COURT: I am not barring you, I am trying to educate
you. But if you don't want to take my advice, fine. He has nothing to do
with it: He doesn't hire or fire any operator who operates the polygraph
machine.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
Q. Well, let me ask you this, Mr. Thomas: We heard
testimony this morning that Mr. Hightower was administered a polygraph
examination four hours into his interviewing. Is it your understanding
that that is a valid method for administering a polygraph examination?
A. I didn't testify to anything this morning, Counselor.
Q. Mr. Hightower, I am saying, testified to that. That he
was given a polygraph examination about four hours into an interview. I'm
asking you, do you have an understanding as to whether that is a valid and
appropriate method of administering a polygraph examination?
A. I don't have anything to do with the polygraph unit now, sir.
Q. So the answer is you don't know?
A. I don't know.
Q. So you don't know if it affects the results of a polygraph
examination?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Now, were you aware that polygraph examinations were used in this
case, in this investigation?
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
A. Without me going into what you just transpired and
all, I don't have personal knowledge of who may or may not have been
polygraphed or whatever. That's not -- who, that is a decision not made of
me. That's made by supervision.
Q. So let's be clear: I wasn't asking if you knew in
particular which individuals were polygraphed. My question was, did you
know whether polygraph examinations were used at all in this
investigation?
A. At this juncture of, personal knowledge that I remember, I don't
recall, sir.
Q. You don't recall?
A. I don't recall.
Q. In any event, we heard testimony this morning -- and I
don't think it is a subject of dispute -- that polygraph examination was
used in this investigation. So my question to you, sir, is what is, what
is your understanding as to the policy regarding when polygraph
examinations are administered to a civilian witness?
A. Could you rephrase that question, Counselor? I don't
understand it. I don't have anything to do with the policies of polygraph,
that's not me.
Q. What I am asking is do you have an
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
understanding as to the policy regarding when polygraph
examinations are administered to civilian witnesses?
A. No, sir, I don't have anything to do with that. That's
supervision, my supervisor would dictate that.
Q. Do you have an understanding or did you have an
understanding as to what is the purpose behind administering a polygraph
examination?
A. I understand why you have a polygraph test done, yes.
Q. Can you share that with us, please?
A. It can be used sometime to make me feel a little bit
more comfortable in that I believe a person to be telling the truth; and
it could also be used to make me a little more comfortable that a person
is telling a falsehood. But how the polygraph works, things of this
nature, that's not my bailiwick. And in our Homicide unit that is a
decision made by supervisors, on whether you go to the polygraph unit with
anyone, at that time.
Q. As a onetime seasoned detective, would you feel more
comfortable with a polygraph examination of a prostitute with some 38
arrests?
MR. GRANT: I object, Your Honor. I
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
mean it depends on which lie he thinks she may tell or
what she said. But I mean this is ridiculous: It is a hypothetical based
on what?
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, it goes directly to the selective use of
polygraph examination.
THE COURT: He said he didn't have anything to do with that.
MR. WILLIAMS: I am asking him if it increases his comfort
level. He described the purpose of the polygraph examination from his
perspective as providing a certain amount of comfort.
MR. GRANT: Objection.
THE COURT: Yes, but the thing is did he do it in this case.
MR. WILLIAMS: And that's what I am asking, Your Honor.
THE COURT: No, you didn't ask him that. Rephrase your question.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Do you know whether any polygraph examination was
given to the witness by the name of Cynthia White, a woman who had over 38
arrests?
A. I don't know whether one was given or not,
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
Counselor.
Q. Would it have increased your comfort level if you had
a polygraph result on what she allegedly observed on the morning of
December 9th, 1981?
MR. GRANT: Objection, Judge.
THE COURT: I have to sustain that. Whether he is
comfortable or not is immaterial. He doesn't know if one was given, had
nothing to do with it.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. And what about --
THE COURT: Whether he is comfortable or not, what is the relevance of
that?
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Mr. Thomas, do you know whether a polygraph
examination was given to a witness by the name of Robert Chobert?
A. At this time I don't recall. I don't really know, I don't know.
Q. You don't know. And what about a witness by the name of
Magilton?
A. I have no personal knowledge of anyone that I could
give you a name and say that they had a polygraph test at this juncture at
this time, Counselor. You know, I don't know of anyone that was
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
given a polygraph test off the top of my head.
Q. And would that also include Mr. Scanlan, another prosecution
witness?
MR. GRANT: Objection: Asked and answered.
THE COURT: I think he has already answered that question,
Counselor. He said he has no idea of anyone being given a polygraph
test.
MR. WILLIAMS: Maybe the name of Mr. Scanlan would refresh his
recollection.
THE COURT: Hey, maybe.
MR. WILLIAMS: That's why I am asking.
MR. GRANT: I object.
THE COURT: Well.
MR. GRANT: He has answered the question.
THE COURT: I think he has answered. At this time he has
nothing. Now, if you have something there you want to show him that might
refresh his memory, fine. But just to ask him a question over and over
again when he said that he has no idea...
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Are you aware as to whether a person by the
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
name of Arnold Howard was asked if he would submit himself to a
polygraph examination?
MR. GRANT: I believe the foundational question is has
Arnold Howard ever been an interviewee in the case of Commonwealth versus
Mumia Abu-Jamal, and if he has been, do you know if he was
polygraphed.
THE COURT: Could you rephrase your question that way. He
is not going to object, you will get it in.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Well, Mr. Thomas, are you aware of whether an
individual by the name of Mr. Arnold Howard was interviewed by a detective
in connection with the investigation of this matter?
A. Counselor, the names you are throwing out to me right now --
MR. WILLIAMS: May I have this marked to refresh his recollection
Defense Exhibit...
THE COURT OFFICER: 17.
MR. GRANT: I would object. Was Mr. Howard the subject of whatever you
told me about?
MR. WILLIAMS: I am trying to refresh his recollection.
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
MR. GRANT: No, my question is did you say you were going
to interview him, cross-examine him about some guy named Howard, did you
say that, sir, to me or not?
Never heard the name before out of your lips until just this
moment.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, first of all, Your Honor, I feel very
uncomfortable in a Court of law having my adversary address me
personally.
THE COURT: Well, I feel out of whack too. And I told you
in the beginning put it in writing. Serve him a copy, give me a copy, and
then I could rule on these questions. You didn't do it. And since he says
-- and I will have to take his word: He is an Officer of the Court just as
you are -- and he said you didn't discuss that with him, I will have to
sustain his objection.
MR. WILLIAMS: What I discussed with Mr. Grant was I was
going to inquire into the selective use of the polygraph examination.
MR. GRANT: Yes.
MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Howard, according to his police report, was asked if
he would
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
subject himself to a polygraph examination.
THE COURT: All right, and you are objecting, or are you withdrawing
your objection?
MR. GRANT: Yes, I am withdrawing it. I have his statement here.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE COURT OFFICER: D-17.
(Investigative report was marked
Defense Exhibit D-l7
for identification.)
THE COURT OFFICER: D-17, sir.
MR. GRANT: Yes, I have it.
THE COURT OFFICER: D-17, Your Honor. D-17, sir (handing).
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Williams, he is looking at it. What do you
want to do with it.
MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Your Honor.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Now, does that refresh your recollection at all as to
whether Mr. Howard was the subject of an interview in connection with this
matter?
(Pause.)
A. Yes, sir.
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
Q. And in looking at that document, does it indicate
whether -- I believe it's highlighted if I am not mistaken -- whether this
individual was asked whether he would submit to a polygraph
examination?
(Pause.)
THE COURT: I want the record to indicate that the
attorneys are having a discussion with Mr. Abu-Jamal. I don't know. I
don't know. Will you proceed or do you want to get your direction
first?
MR. WILLIAMS: No, I am awaiting Mr. Thomas.
THE COURT: Oh. You asked him whether it was on there.
MR. WILLIAMS: There is a question pending, yes.
THE WITNESS: Yes, I see it on page 4.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. And Mr. Howard was questioned because his license was
found in the Volkswagen that was the subject of this case; is that right?
A. From reading this that appears to be right, that is correct,
sir.
Q. And are you aware that Mr. Howard was arrested
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
in connection with this case?
MR. GRANT: Your Honor, I object. He asked him was he
asked to take a polygraph. He said it's in there on the page. The next
question is was he given one. If not he is showing selectivity. What Mr.
Howard's involvement in this case was is irrelevant to this witness and
his offer of proof. Judge, that's what I keep trying --
THE COURT: That's what I told you in the beginning: Put it in
writing.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Mr. Thomas, was Mr. Howard given a polygraph examination?
A. I don't know.
MR. WILLIAMS: I would like to have marked Defense Exhibit 18 --
Is it Defense Exhibit 18?
It is a shorter document, Mr. Thomas. I would like you to review that
as well.
(Investigative report was marked
Defense Exhibit D-l8
for identification.)
MR. WILLIAMS: The question that you should have in mind
after reviewing it is whether this individual, the subject of this
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
interview, a Mr. Nelms, was asked whether he would submit to a
polygraph examination.
THE COURT OFFICER: D-18, sir (handing).
(Pause.)
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Are you in a position to answer the question, sir?
THE COURT: Do you think maybe you could agree among yourselves? I don't
know.
(Discussion was held off the record at this
time
between Commonwealth and defense Counsel.)
(Pause.)
THE WITNESS: Counselor...
THE COURT: I think he wants to know your question again, Counselor.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Yes. With respect to Mr. Nelms, the subject of the
interview report of Defense Exhibit 18, can you tell us whether he was
asked if he would submit to a polygraph examination?
A. Counsel, I see a question in there would you be
willing to take a polygraph examination. My only question is, this is an
interview from Staff
Page 164.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
Inspector Weldon Jones? Which wouldn't be in the
Homicide, it wouldn't be within my scope. And it's dated November the 9th,
1981. And it just has a police officer, doesn't have any name.
THE COURT: It is November '81? That is prior to this
incident, Counselor. Is that prior to this incident?
MR. WILLIAMS: That is a document that was turned over by the District
Attorney's Office.
THE COURT: I know that, but he said something about
November of '81. Is that prior to this incident?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes. Apparently it is.
THE COURT: Well, what does it have to do with this case?
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, it was turned over by the District Attorney's
Office.
THE COURT: Well, they turned it over. Maybe they turned
it over, I don't know, but I am asking you what does it have to do with
this case?
Would you look at it with him, Mr. Grant.
MR. GRANT: This is mis transcribed,
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
Your Honor: It is supposed to be 12-9-81. However, it is
not, it is not the Homicide detective division, it is special
investigation resulting from the complaint filed by Mr. Jackson. This is
an IAB interview.
MR. WILLIAMS: That's not true.
THE COURT: Oh.
MR. WILLIAMS: The date of the interview is 12-9-81.
MR. GRANT: I agree.
MR. WILLIAMS: And no complaint was filed.
MR. GRANT: Oh, okay.
MR. WILLIAMS: Until sometime thereafter.
MR. GRANT: Maybe that date is wrong. It clearly is wrong.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. In any event -- leaving aside the date, which is
obviously an error -- the subject, have you read this document?
A. No, sir, I got to the top of it and I wanted to get a clarification
before I --
Q. If you read the document (handing)...
Tell me if you are not satisfied that
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
that document relates to the investigation of the shooting death of
Officer Faulkner?
(Pause.)
(Discussion was held off the record at this
time
between Commonwealth and defense Counsel.)
(Pause.)
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Yes, now having reviewed that document, that document
does relate to the shooting death of Officer Faulkner; isn't that
true?
A. It gives a synopsis similar to the incident of Officer
Faulkner but without mentioning any names. And this being a printed copy,
I'm not going to say under oath this relates to that thing. It is an
incident similar to that, that's as far as I want to go.
Q. I appreciate your carefulness. In any event, is there
a reference in that document as to whether the individual interviewed was
asked if he would submit himself to a polygraph examination?
MR. GRANT: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR. GRANT: Objection because it is
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
not relevant to this proceeding. It can not be authenticated as having
a relationship to this.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, then --
MR. GRANT: It is not done by Homicide investigating a
homicide, apparently. From the face of the document.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, is the prosecution claiming now that
that document has no relationship to this case?
MR. GRANT: I am saying it can't be authenticated as
proving that anybody at the direction of Homicide caused or didn't cause
polygraph examinations to be taken in this particular murder.
THE COURT: All right, okay. So go back and --
MR. WILLIAMS: If I could have the document back, please.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Do you recall of the four prosecution alleged
eyewitnesses -- that is Cynthia White, Mr. Chobert, Mr. Magilton and Mr.
Scanlan -- whether all of them had prior criminal, prior criminal
history?
MR. GRANT: Objection.
THE COURT: The basis of your
Page 168.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
objection?
MR. GRANT: The basis of my objection, Your Honor, is I
mean if he wants to impeach the witness after the Jury reached their
verdict that's one thing, but that is not the, that is not within the
scope as I understood his offer of proof.
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, sometimes a question is
proffered or posited to a witness and it's relevance can only be
understood in the context of other questions. I need an answer to this
question to proceed to my next one.
THE COURT: Well.
MR. GRANT: His next question is going to be and did you
offer them polygraphs. And the reason he is asking the first question is
because they are criminals, have criminal histories that maybe they
shouldn't be believed, so is that the basis for it. And I am saying if he
could just ask the question a person could be lying and still have
committed crimes.
MR. WILLIAMS: I will ask the question. I was trying to
avoid a long-winded question but I will ask it all in one question.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Page 169.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
Q. Can you explain to us why, Detective Thomas, as you
sit here today, why four prosecution alleged eyewitnesses, all of whom
have criminal records, were not given a polygraph examination, but a young
accounting student was given a polygraph examination, can you explain that
for us in this Courtroom?
A. No, sir.
Q. Can you explain for us why a young accounting student
was kept in the precinct for over four hours, given a polygraph
examination when none of the other prosecution witnesses, all of whom have
criminal pasts, were never required to endure that?
MR. GRANT: Judge, we don't know that these witnesses
weren't given polygraph examinations. He is assuming facts not in
evidence.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, I am asking him.
THE COURT: He told you he didn't have anything to do with
authorizing polygraph tests so how could he answer that question?
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. To your knowledge were any of those prosecution
witnesses, all of whom have criminal records, ever subjected to a
polygraph examination?
A. Counselor, I have no idea who was polygraphed
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
and who was not polygraphed at this time.
Q. So -- I'm sorry, I didn't want to interrupt.
THE COURT: He said he didn't know who was given or who wasn't given a
polygraph, that's all.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. So you can't explain why a young accounting student
who saw a man fleeing the scene, who ultimately testified for the defense,
was given a polygraph examination, and the four witnesses who testified
for the prosecution were not? You can't explain that in this Courtroom
today?
MR. GRANT: Objection. Counselor can't prove that the four were not.
Therefore, the question --
THE COURT: That's why I sustained the original objection.
We are still going over this. It's like beating a dead horse.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Now, if I were to show you -- pardon me for one moment.
(Discussion was held off the record at
this time among
defense Counsel.)
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, I would ask at this juncture, then, in light
of the
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
objection, that the defense be given discovery in regards
to whether any witness, any prosecution witness was given a polygraph
examination.
THE COURT: I had already ruled that discovery was not available in a
PCRA.
MR. WILLIAMS: Now it's patently obvious that we can root that discovery
request in a claim.
THE COURT: No.
MR. WILLIAMS: In our PCRA.
THE COURT: There are ways to do it but I am not here to tell you
how.
MR. GRANT: I will make it easy for them, Judge: Nobody was given a
polygraph.
MR. WILLIAMS: I appreciate the representation by Mr. Grant.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Given that representation by Mr. Grant, Mr. Thomas,
you can not explain why a polygraph examination was administered to a
young accounting student who ultimately testified for the defense, and not
for those witnesses who testified for the prosecution, all of whom had
criminal records?
A. Supervisory decision, sir. Polygraph tests
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
and who gets them and who doesn't get them is not within the scope of
my decision to make.
Q. And you can't help us to understand why the polygraph
examination that was administered to Mr. Hightower didn't involve the
crucial question as to whether he was lying about seeing a man fleeing
from the scene?
MR. GRANT: Crucial to whom, Judge?
MR. WILLIAMS: Crucial to the defense.
MR. GRANT: Well, not to the polygrapher, apparently.
MR. WILLIAMS: That is precisely the point, not to the polygrapher.
THE COURT: This witness can't answer that question.
MR. WILLIAMS: If he can't he could say so.
THE COURT: It is obvious that he can't. He had nothing to
do with who got a polygraph in the first place. And he is not a
polygrapher, he can't tell what questions were asked.
MR. GRANT: Your Honor, perhaps the polygrapher believed
that Mr. Hightower saw a person running from the scene and that wasn't
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
the focus of his inquiry as to why he was lying.
THE COURT: Maybe, but I don't know how this witness could help him on
that score.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Picking up on the issue of the man fleeing from the
scene: The fact of the matter is three of the four, three witnesses other
than Mr. Hightower also saw someone fleeing the scene, was that your
understanding, sir?
A. Counselor, 12 years later I don't recall all the
facts. There's been too many cases after this, too many cases before this.
And I'm in a new career now, even that I could remember each person, each
witness to this incident. Especially in the manner in which I, you
know.
Q. Now, during the trial, while you were assisting Mr.
McGill, do you recall ever being requested by Mr. McGill that you attempt
to bring to Court a woman by the name of Deborah Kordansky?
A. I don't recall. I don't recall even the name.
Q. Do you recall being requested to try, attempting to
contact a witness for the benefit of the defense? Do you recall that?
A. I don't recall that.
Q. Do you recall whether you visited a witness in
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
an effort to bring that witness to Court for the benefit of the
defense?
A. I don't recall that, Counselor.
Q. You don't recall that. Do you recall whether any
individuals who were interviewed by law enforcement were shown photos of
Mr. Jamal?
A. Counselor, at this time I don't remember that either. I can't.
Q. You can't recall?
A. I don't remember it.
MR. WILLIAMS: I would like to have this marked as Defense Exhibit
19.
(Investigative report was marked
Defense Exhibit D-l9
for identification.)
THE COURT OFFICER: D-19, sir (handing).
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Now, to aid you in your reading of that document, I
just want to ask you in connection with that document as to whether any
police officers in the investigation of the shooting death of Officer
Faulkner showed a photograph of Mr. Jamal to any civilian witnesses or
civilian persons?
MR. GRANT: Your Honor, I think the question is were any photographs
shown to
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
civilian witnesses that the Commonwealth didn't turn over
to the defense and as a result suppressed exculpatory evidence. That's
their claim. This is not even a photo array.
THE COURT: Rephrase your question.
MR. WILLIAMS: I am first establishing whether photos were
shown and then I will proceed from there. Your Honor, I would like to
think of this as one brick at a time: Put a brick down and then the next
question is another brick. But you are forcing me to bring in the whole
house.
THE COURT: I am not forcing you to do anything, Counsel.
But if I get an objection I want to find out what the situation is. You
people have been playing around with this case for years. I haven't.
MR. WILLIAMS: Exactly, that's why we will present it one brick at a
time.
THE COURT: Right. But let them know.
MR. WILLIAMS: One question at a time.
THE COURT: But let him know so maybe he won't object. You see what I am
talking about?
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, I just have
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Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
had a conversation with Mr. Grant. I showed him the document.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WILLIAMS: I am just presenting one question at a time.
THE COURT: Right. And I say just discuss it among
yourselves; and if he is not going to object, I am not going to rule.
MR. WILLIAMS: If he doesn't object then you allow the
question. If he does object you sustain the objection. That's what is
happening here.
THE COURT: All right, Counselor, another wise remark like
that and you will be in contempt of Court. I don't want any snide remarks
from you. You will show the proper respect to this Court. Do I make myself
clear?
MR. WILLIAMS: Abundantly clear.
THE COURT: Okay. Now cut it out. I don't want the snide
remarks. I rule because I think I'm right, that's why I rule.
All right, you act up you will go outside. Anybody acts up you are
going to go out.
See what you have caused?
Page 177.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
MR. WILLIAMS: I don't know if that's worthy of comment from me, Your
Honor.
THE COURT: It better not.
MR. WILLIAMS: I've been nothing short of respectful for the Court.
THE COURT: No, you haven't. You give me the snide remarks and I don't
like it. Cut it out.
MR. WILLIAMS: I merely made an observation.
THE COURT: I don't care about your observation. You don't
tell me how to make rulings. You have an exception to every ruling that I
make. If I'm wrong I will be overruled. If I'm right I will be affirmed.
But I don't need your snide remarks. That's what I am objecting to. Just
so we understand one another.
MR. WILLIAMS: I think we do, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, fine.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Mr. Thomas, can you tell us whether any law
enforcement personnel displayed a photograph of Mr. Jamal to any civilian
witnesses?
Page 178.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
A. This officer states he showed a gentleman a photograph
of Mr. Mumia Abu-Jamal which was in the newspapers.
Q. So the answer is that a photograph was shown to a civilian witness,
at least one, right?
MR. GRANT: Your Honor, I object. This was not a civilian
witness. The man was nowhere within 50 miles of the shooting scene. He
owned the cab in which they found the engine running and Mr. Jamal had
gotten out of. They were trying to establish is this your cab. They had
showed him a picture. Did you loan it to this man.
MR. WILLIAMS: I wasn't suggesting that he was an eyewitness.
MR. GRANT: You have to do it with the photo array.
MR. WILLIAMS: That is not true, I was not suggesting a
photo array. I merely asked if this individual was shown a photo.
THE COURT: Well, I think you attorneys could have agreed to this
without even asking this witness.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, now I want to ask the follow-up question.
Page 179.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Were any other civilians shown photographs like the
individual mentioned in Defense Exhibit 19?
A. Not that I recall, Counsel.
Q. Do you recall whether any individuals were shown a
series of photographs, one of the photographs being of Mr. Jamal, in what
is known in our field as a photo, photographic array?
A. I don't recall whether a display or array with Mr.
Jamal was shown to anyone, I don't recall at this juncture.
Q. So given that you don't recall, it is possible, is it not?
MR. GRANT: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained. Anything is possible. He said he doesn't recall,
period.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, let me put it the other way.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. As you sit here today, you can not state with any
certitude that a photographic array that included a photo of Mr. Jamal was
not shown to any witnesses? Isn't that true?
A. That's true, I can't.
Q. It's --
Page 180.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
A. That's true.
Q. Now, you were aware during the course of the trial
that there was testimony concerning an alleged confession by Mr. Jamal.
Right?
A. Counselor, what went on during that trial, I don't recall all the
facts and things of it.
Q. I am not asking you to recall all the facts.
A. I don't recall that.
Q. You don't recall whether there was evidence of Mr. Jamal having
confessed to the crime?
MR. GRANT: Objection: It's beyond the scope of his offer.
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, I did mention to Mr. Grant that
I would inquire into what I referred to as the Wakshul matter.
MR. GRANT: And I object. And I said each time he brings
up something that doesn't support his position in his Petition, then I
would object to it. Mr. Wakshul did or did not go on vacation at the
instance of the Police Department. That was the only reason he was on the
stand. Now you want to talk about a -- confession from Mr. Jamal?
MR. WILLIAMS: No, what I was going to inquire -- and I am directing his
attention to
Page 181.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
Mr. Wakshul -- by doing that through the avenue of the
fact that there was testimony or evidence of an alleged confession. I am
directing his attention to that.
THE COURT: Yes, but we went through all of that already. I don't know
where --
MR. WILLIAMS: I am attempting to explore -- is there a
rule of evidence that says you could only explore an issue through one
witness?
THE COURT: You see, Counselor, that's why I said to you
in the beginning would you please put in writing what you hoped to do. I
asked you to do that. You still haven't done it for me.
MR. WILLIAMS: That was the purpose of the Petition and the memorandum
of law. It goes into --
THE COURT: I said with any witness that you were going to
call. So that the District Attorney would be alerted to everything that
you hoped to bring up so he could object if he wants to, or maybe not
object, but at least he would be put on notice of what you intend to
do.
Page 182.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, and I mean no disrespect to the
Court in saying this, but on the very first day when Your Honor ordered us
to proceed to a hearing, we made the offer of proceeding in an orderly
fashion by way of garnering all the statements we needed.
THE COURT: Counselor, Counselor, that is all past. You
went up to the Supreme Court and they said start July 26th and we started
July 26th.
MR. WILLIAMS: And we are proceeding as fast as we can.
THE COURT: Okay, but you can't tell me you couldn't have
taken a few minutes to write something out and give it to the District
Attorney. You knew you were going to call him today. Come on, cut out this
stuff in the future, will you please. And we could avoid all of this. It
doesn't take you that long to write something up. You did it with the
other witnesses. Do it in the future, please.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Mr. Thomas, in connection with the evidence that was
adduced at trial regarding an alleged confession made by Mr. Jamal, were
you aware that
Page 183.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
there was a witness by the name of Officer Wakshul, or
Wake-shul, that had relevant testimony concerning that evidence that was
adduced at trial?
A. I'm aware that there was an Officer Wakshul involved in this
case.
Q. Do you know whether Officer Wakshul was ever asked by
the prosecution, by Mr. McGill or anyone assisting Mr. McGill, whether he
should be available to testify for the prosecution?
A. I have... no way I'm going to know that. I have no idea.
Q. Well, let me ask you this. Were you present at a
meeting in January or February of 1982 with Mr. McGill and a number of
police officers connected with this case meeting in a room with a round
table discussing how they were going to present this case to a jury, were
you present for that meeting?
A. Counselor, you are saying a meeting sometime in
January. I was at so many meetings and so many things doing this case, we
seemed like we spent our, lives in little rooms. And I was even commenting
when I came in here today they got air conditioning now, when we did this
we didn't get no air conditioning. And it was little rooms with little
round tables. And I spent almost a year or a year
Page 184.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
and a half with these officers and Joe McGill and what
have you on this matter. I spent almost a year on this as well as my other
duties in Homicide. I can't remember every meeting we had and what was
said and what was transpired.
Q. Okay. In any of those meetings do you recall whether
Officer Wakshul was asked to be available to testify at trial?
A. I can't recall what was asked of Officer Wakshul by
whatever officer, Detective Goldberg. What was asked of Detective Thomas
even, at this juncture, Counsel.
Q. Could you help us to understand why Officer Wakshul,
who had evidence concerning an important aspect of this case, if not the
most crucial aspect of this case, why he was permitted to go on vacation?
Do you have any information as to that?
A. Would you repeat that question? This is something
about Officer Wakshul going on vacation when, Counselor?
Q. During the course of this trial, the trial of Mr.
Jamal. Can you help us to understand why he was permitted to go on
vacation?
A. By Civil Service regulations he gets two or three weeks a year if he
puts in his for vacation. I
Page 185.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
have no idea here, Counselor. You would have to -- I have no idea.
Q. I'd have to what?
A. I have no idea.
Q. You have no idea why Mr. Wakshul was let go on vacation?
A. You'd have to ask Officer Wakshul: He went on vacation, not
Detective Thomas.
Q. He asked us to ask someone else as to whether, as to why he was let
go on vacation.
MR. GRANT: I object, Judge.
THE COURT: No, come on, now, Counselor. I told you who to ask.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Now you testified earlier this afternoon that one of
your obligations was to maintain the files; do you remember that?
A. I testified that I put the Homicide binder together.
Q. Right. And that you would assist Mr. McGill in giving him whatever
documents he needed, right?
A. On occasion over that year's time I've handed him
documents. I'd give him a number of documents. There were so many things
that I did for him, or the defense even, and what have you during that
trial.
Page 186.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
And I don't recall everything that I did. Especially
something as you want me to remember, giving him a piece of paper. I can't
remember everything I did.
Q. Well, I'm not asking you about particular pieces of
paper, I'm only asking whether you had provided documents to Mr. McGill
upon his request. And your answer is yes. My next question --
A. No, Counselor, hold on. You are asking did I provide him with
documents?
Q. Yes.
A. I mean he had the whole case binder. What I am saying
I provided him with it: I may be just giving him a number, look at C-44,
whatever.
Q. Okay, fine.
A. But like I said, I could hand him a piece of paper, I
could hand him a document. Counselor, it is 12 years ago. Whatever I did
with Joe McGill, I don't recall everything I may have done.
Q. Now, you also testified earlier this afternoon that
one of the things that you did was helped keep control of the witnesses,
that is to bring witnesses in if they needed to be brought in?
MR. GRANT: I don't believe he said that.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember
Page 187.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
testifying to that, Counselor.
THE COURT: No. He said he doesn't remember testifying to that.
MR. GRANT: He said specifically that he didn't do that.
THE COURT: He said that is the District Attorney's
responsibility. You see, that is the difficulty: You don't know the setup
here. The District Attorney has it's own investigators. I don't know what
they have to do at work but that's what we have here in Philadelphia.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Mr. Thomas, are you aware of any efforts by the
District Attorney's Office, by any law enforcement personnel, to secure
the attendance of Mr. Wakshul to appear in the trial of Mr. Jamal? Are you
aware of any such efforts?
A. Counselor, I have no idea what may have transpired
from the Police Department, from the D.A. 's Office, even from myself,
according to your question, because I don't recall.
Q. You don't recall whether any efforts were made?
A. That's correct, sir, I don't recall it.
Page 188.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
Q. Let me ask you this. Being, having extensive
experience in the Philadelphia Police Department, if efforts were made to
locate Officer Wakshul within the Police Department, could he have been
located?
MR. GRANT: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. WILLIAMS: What is the basis for that objection, Your Honor?
MR. GRANT: The objection is how does he know where the
man was and how does he know what effort could be made by somebody else.
Clearly it is speculation in his mind as to what they might be doing.
MR. WILLIAMS: I predicated the question in his experience
-- and it is an extensive one -- as to whether he could be located.
THE COURT: Let me say this, Counselor. If this was the
only case he handled in the course of his career, I might agree with you.
But I would venture to say there must have been hundreds, maybe even
thousands of cases that he handled. So how do you expect him to remember
every case?
MR. WILLIAMS: I am not asking in
Page 189.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
every case.
THE COURT: Well, he already told you that it would be up
to the District Attorney's Office to locate a witness.
MR. WILLIAMS: But in the hundreds of cases that he has
been involved with, perhaps he has come across a situation where a witness
was located by law enforcement. Or indeed a brother officer.
THE COURT: It depends on what you are talking about in
law enforcement. The District Attorney detectives are law enforcement
officers, the investigators are law enforcement officers.
MR. GRANT: My objection is, Judge, maybe he has that
experience, maybe he doesn't, but on any particular day when police
officers can find the guy who is on vacation, if he is in town or out of
town or whatever, there is no general rule that you could make, either an
individual can be found or not. So there is no general rule about whether
cops can find other cops.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Well, let me ask this, then. Are the home
Page 190.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
phone numbers of police officers available to the
superiors, that is the supervisors of those police officers?
A. The -- yes.
Q. Okay.
(Discussion was held off the record at
this time
between defense Counsel.)
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. And indeed, in the police statements that were
prepared in this case, those police statements contained the addresses and
phone numbers of the persons interviewed; isn't that true?
A. You are referring to civilian or police personnel?
Q. Both.
A. No, sir.
Q. Well, a police officer's, were the addresses and phone
numbers contained in the police reports?
A. No, sir.
Q. Just the precinct -- just the --
MR. WILLIAMS: What is it.
(Discussion was held off the record at
this between
Commonwealth and defense Counsel.)
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. The district?
Page 191.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
A. That's correct, sir.
Q. So one would have to refer to the personnel file of
the brother police officer, of the relevant police officer to find the
home phone number?
A. One would have to go to the district roster, or
personnel has, I believe, an alphabetical roster, or you can go to a
roster by badge number. There is a whole lot of cross reference I believe
in the Police Department. It's probably changed since I left but at that
time I believe it was there.
Q. Do you know who directed Mr. Wakshul not to go on vacation before
--
MR. GRANT: Objection: Assumes a fact not in evidence.
MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Wakshul testified to that.
THE COURT: Fine, ask Mr. Wakshul that.
MR. WILLIAMS: I am asking who that person is.
MR. GRANT: It assumes a fact not in evidence, is my objection, because
he didn't testify to that.
MR. WILLIAMS: He testified one, possibly more than one person directed
him not
Page 192.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
to go on vacation.
MR. GRANT: No, he asked him if he would stay around if he was on
vacation. That's different.
MR. WILLIAMS: Fine, I will ask that question.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Do you know who told Mr. Wakshul to stay around if he was on
vacation?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Now, as a onetime seasoned detective, is it unusual
for you, is it unusual for a police officer to not know the significance
or the importance of a confession?
MR. GRANT: Objection: Beyond the scope.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. WILLIAMS: It goes directly to the claim of officer --
THE COURT: I sustained the objection, Counselor.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. As a seasoned detective, or once seasoned detective,
is it unusual for you, or unusual to you, that not a single police officer
reported hearing a
Page 193.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Direct
confession within two months of the time that that
confession allegedly was uttered, is that unusual for you?
MR. GRANT: Objection. Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Now, certain individuals, certain individuals noted to
law enforcement on the night, or the morning of the shooting of Officer
Faulkner, that they had seen an individual fleeing the scene. Did you do
any follow-up investigation in light of that information?
MR. GRANT: Objection: That was litigated at the time of
trial. It's beyond the offer of proof that he made. And I would like to
ask the Court if it will inquire what other lines of questioning we are
going to go through with this witness.
THE COURT: Sustain the objection, Counselor.
MR. WILLIAMS: In light of the sustaining of that objection, I have no
further questions.
MR. GRANT: I just have three, Judge.
- - - - -
CROSS-EXAMINATION
- - - - -
Page 194.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Cross
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. Have you ever met Mr. Williams before (indicating)?
A. No, Counselor, I have not.
Q. Ever seen him in your life?
A. No, sir, I have not.
Q. Ever seen Mr. Weinglass here (indicating)?
A. No, sir, I have not.
Q. Miss West over there (indicating)?
A. No; I believe Miss West called me on my phone.
Q. Did they ever give you the courtesy, sir, of saying we
are representing Mr. Jamal and we would like to show you the paperwork
that was involved in this murder so you could know and answer our
questions intelligently instead of saying I don't recall, it's been 12
years, I don't know; did anybody do that for you?
A. No, sir. Counselor, I even asked the Court Crier to
ask them if they want to speak to me when I got here this morning. They
didn't want to come back and see me.
Q. So the first time you are speaking to them is from the witness stand
under oath?
A. That is correct, Counselor.
Page 195.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Cross
Q. Did they ever show you any photographs?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did they ever discuss any statements any witnesses made with
you?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did they ever tell you we're going to ask you about a guy named
Wakshul?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did they ask you or show you a vacation log for any individuals?
A. No, sir.
Q. They just gave you a subpoena and Miss West coordinated your
schedule for you to come?
A. Their investigator came to my house and misrepresented
himself and tried to force a subpoena on my wife while I was absent. And
then later they came up on the Turnpike and I received a subpoena from the
investigator.
Q. On the Turnpike?
A. That's correct, while I was working. They went to my
office and they got someone out of line at my office and trying to see
what I looked like on pictures that are displayed around my office and
what have you. And so my office called me while at my work station, where
my duty station was that day.
Page 196.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Cross
And I told them, I talked to my supervisor up there, I
told them to bring it up to Exit 26 of the Turnpike, I'll wait there for
the subpoena.
I had contacted this Court on Monday and told them I was
back, I had been out of town three weekends in a row plus five straight
days. And I notified them that I was here on Monday. And nobody called. I
made arrangements for them to meet me in my job at eight o'clock, between
8:00 and 9:00, and I would come right down, I just want to show the
subpoena to my job. Nobody showed up then. They showed up after lunch
yesterday. And all of them, I don't think the people in my employment
appreciated it. I definitely didn't appreciate someone coming to my home,
misrepresenting themselves as a member of a youth organization that I
belong to dealing with black kids, and trying to force my wife to take the
subpoena. I didn't appreciate that at all.
- - - - -
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
- - - - -
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Mr. Thomas, you were shown several documents during
the course of my examination of you during the direct examination. Do you
remember that?
Page 197.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Redirect
A. Yes, sir, Counselor. Those documents just as easily
could have been shown to me this morning so I could peruse either those
documents or the Homicide file, of which I'm pretty sure Mr. Grant would
have let me see, so that I could have been a, you know.
Q. Now, and showing you those documents during the direct
examination apparently didn't refresh much of your recollection, did
it?
A. I could see that they had been asked about the polygraph machine.
Polygraph test.
Q. Let me ask you this, Detective Thomas. Are you of the
mind that you would be willing to help Mr. Jamal get a new trial in this
matter?
MR. GRANT: Judge.
THE COURT: Yes. This has got nothing to do with redirect. The objection
is sustained. Please.
MR. WILLIAMS: I have no further questions. Well, one other
question.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Having been a long-time employee of the City of
Philadelphia, did you ever ask anybody in the prosecution team -- I'm
sorry -- the District Attorney's Office, to review any materials in
preparation for your testimony here?
Page 198.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Redirect
MR. GRANT: We didn't subpoena him. It is not our obligation.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Were you aware that you were on a witness list for the
District Attorney's Office in connection with this matter?
MR. GRANT: Objection.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Did you know that?
MR. GRANT: It is irrelevant whether he knew it or not.
MR. WILLIAMS: It is relevant to whether he was prepared.
THE COURT: You called him.
MR. WILLIAMS: He was also on the witness list for the District
Attorney.
MR. GRANT: Judge, we put on evidence to rebut their
claims. And if we needed him to rebut their claims we would have called
Mr. Thomas. We don't even know what their claims are at this point. We are
just waiting.
And we didn't subpoena him, you did.
MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Grant made an offer of proof as to why he would call
Mr. Thomas.
MR. GRANT: That's right, because I'm
Page 199.
Detective William Thomas, Ret. - Redirect
supposed to, Your Honor.
Unlike yourself, I did what he asked me.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. And so my question is did you review any documents to
prepare yourself to testify on behalf of the District Attorney?
A. You subpoenaed me, Counselor. And honoring that
subpoena I would not converse with anyone from the D.A.'s Office or anyone
else on this case whatever. I didn't talk about this case to anyone.
Q. I didn't ask you to talk, I am asking did you review
any documents or prepare yourself in any way to testify on behalf of the
District Attorney?
THE COURT: He answered that question.
THE WITNESS: Not knowing why I was subpoenaed to this
case, there was no documents that I could review. I have no idea why you
subpoenaed me. But I came in this morning.
MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Thomas, I appreciate your trouble for coming here.
Thank you very much.
THE COURT: All right, you are excused.
MR. GRANT: I would like to bring to
Page 200.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
the Court's attention, Your Honor, that at the request of
Counsel, because she was a witness that they wanted second on the list, I
brought in and had the detectives go find Miss Deborah Kordansky.
THE COURT: She is here?
MR. GRANT: She has been here since this morning. I
notified them that she has child care problems and that she has to leave
at a certain time. They knew that when this man was being sworn. They knew
she was here and they chose to not put her on. Now, I would ask that we
be, that they put her on and let her go. She has been here more than once,
more than twice, more than three times.
THE COURT: All right, is she here? Let's bring her out. Come on.
- - - - -
Deborah Kordansky, having been duly sworn, was examined and testified
as follows:
- - - - -
DIRECT EXAMINATION
- - - - -
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Good afternoon, Miss Kordansky.
Page 201.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
A. Good afternoon.
Q. Do I have your name correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Deborah Kordansky?
A. Yes. K-O-R-D-A-N-S-K-Y.
Q. Pardon?
A. K-O-R-D-A-N-S-K-Y.
Q. Miss Kordansky, since coming here to Court, have you
had occasion to discuss the case that we are presently involved in with
any individual?
A. Yes.
Q. And who did you talk to?
A. I spoke to some of the detectives. I spoke to the,
ahh, I spoke to my husband, of course. And my, I think my brother as
well.
Q. Could you move the microphone a little closer. I'm sorry. You spoke
to detectives?
A. Yes.
Q. Yes. Do you remember who?
A. Detective Joe Walsh. And I think Detective Miller, if
I am not mistaken. Is it Miller? I'm not sure if that's correct. But
another, yeah, two detectives.
Q. Just two detectives?
A. Well, ahh, three. I mean I alluded to it some
Page 202.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
officially maybe to... to a man from Internal Affairs.
But, you know, more like oh, this is going on for a long time. Oh, do you
think they'll call me. Things like that.
Q. So you spoke to three individuals, but only two about matters of
substance?
A. Yeah, I believe so. As far as my memory goes, yes.
Q. And the two detectives that you spoke to, do you recall the nature
of the conversation?
A. Yes. We talked about, well, of course the detectives
brought a subpoena. And they issued that to my husband for me. But the day
before that they came to tell me that I was probably going to be
subpoenaed to testify for the defense. And we spoke a little bit about my
statement, I mean reviewed it, because I didn't really remember very well
actual events.
Q. So you were shown your statement by the detectives?
A. Yes.
Q. And that was before you were subpoenaed?
A. Ahh... I guess so, yeah.
Q. I don't want to ask you your address. But you live in the general
area of Philadelphia?
Page 203.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
MR. GRANT: Objection as to relevancy.
THE WITNESS: I'd rather not answer that.
MR. GRANT: Move to strike it.
THE COURT: She lives in Philadelphia, period. I assume.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. In Philadelphia?
MR. GRANT: I object. I object.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Am I correct?
MR. GRANT: Does he need to know where she lives personally?
MR. WEINGLASS: I am not asking for her address.
THE WITNESS: I would prefer not to answer the question.
THE COURT: I prefer not to answer that.
MR. WEINGLASS: Right.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Do you remember when a detective or detectives came to your
house?
MR. GRANT: 1981?
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Page 204.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
Q. No, just we are talking about this proceeding.
A. Yes, just recent past. Umm, a couple of weeks ago.
Q. A couple weeks ago?
A. Yes.
Q. And they came once? I'm sorry. When I say they, was there more than
one?
A. Two detectives, yes.
Q. Was that also Detective Welsh?
A. Walsh.
Q. Walsh and Miller?
A. I believe Detective Miller, yes.
Q. And how long did they stay when they came to see you?
A. Maybe 15 or 20 minutes.
Q. That's when you reviewed the statement with them?
A. Yeah. Yeah.
Q. Was this a statement in your own handwriting?
A. No.
Q. It was a typed statement?
A. I believe, yes.
MR. WEINGLASS: If the Court please: I don't have a typed
statement of the witness. I asked for discovery on that issue.
Page 205.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
MR. GRANT: The statement she is referring to is the
statement that you got. I got another copy for you right here. It's
handwritten. And we went there at the request of the defense on every
occasion because they said they couldn't locate the witness and they
intended to call her. We served subpoenas for them on these occasions.
I don't appreciate the inference, Counsel.
MR. WEINGLASS: The inference is the witness was shown the statement I
don't have.
MR. GRANT: You have it in your hand.
MR. WEINGLASS: The witness said it was typed.
MR. GRANT: Ask her.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Was it a typed statement that you were shown?
A. Yes, I think so.
Q. Yeah, it is this statement which I am holding in my hand, right
(displaying)?
THE COURT: Why don't you give it to the Clerk.
MR. WEINGLASS: Yes, please.
THE COURT OFFICER: (Handing.)
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Deborah Kordansky - Direct
THE WITNESS: It doesn't look like it is.
THE COURT OFFICER: D-20. Do you want this marked?
MR. WEINGLASS: Yes, please.
THE COURT OFFICER: D-20.
(Investigation interview record was
marked Defense
Exhibit D-20 for identification.)
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Now showing you D-20: That is not a typed statement, is it?
A. No. No, but you know what, it's printed. So it could
very well have been the statement that I was shown. Because I do remember
printing. I'm sorry, I don't remember exactly if it was typed or printed,
though.
Q. Oh. So having seen D-20, that refreshes your
recollection that you were shown a statement which could have been printed
or typed?
A. Yes.
Q. And D-20 is a hand-printed statement?
A. Yes.
Q.And that is the statement that you were shown?
(Pause.)
A. This is the same contents of the statement
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Deborah Kordansky - Direct
that I was shown, yes. I don't know if this is the exact
replica of what I had written but it is the contents of the statement.
Q. And so a couple weeks ago detectives came to your
house and then you came down here to Court, you came today. I believe you
might have come some other days as well; is that true?
A. One day.
Q. One other day?
A. Yes.
Q. This is your second day?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you on the last day, not today, the first day
you came, did you talk to the detectives on that occasion?
A. Yes. I don't remember exactly, that was the day my
mother died so things were a little bit of a blur.
MR. GRANT: Could you speak into the mike, ma'am. or pull it up,
please.
What was the last answer?
MR. WEINGLASS: Right, so Councel wants you to repeat your last
answer.
THE WITNESS: The day my mother died was the Tuesday I was subpoenaed to
be here.
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Deborah Kordansky - Direct
And I was here. But I really don't remember much of the
conversation that I had that day. Because it was the day my mother
died.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. I see. And that was a Commonwealth's, that day you were subpoenaed
by the District Attorney?
MR. GRANT: Your Honor, we brought her in for Mr. Weinglass, for the
second time.
MR. WEINGLASS: I never asked this witness to be here on
that day. Never. They brought her in on a day they selected. And it is
unfortunate they brought her in on the day her mother died in order to
influence the witness in some way against us.
THE WITNESS: They didn't know my mother had died.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. But you now know we didn't ask you to be here that
day, it was the District Attorneys who brought you. Now, I assume on that
day you didn't have much conversation with the detectives given --
A. No, no, I didn't learn of my mother's death until after I was
here.
Q. I see.
A. But my memory is pretty hazy as a result of
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Deborah Kordansky - Direct
that. I did have conversation with the detectives, talked
about the neighborhood, whatever, you know, different things. But I don't
remember much.
Q. Now directing your attention not to the night of the
occurrence -- which is December 9th, 1981 -- but -- and we'll come to that
-- but to the time of the trial, which is June, the end of June 1982. Were
you still here in the City of Philadelphia?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And did you have any conversation from December of '81
to June of '82 with representatives of the District Attorney's Office,
either detectives or District Attorneys?
A. Referring to this statement?
Q. Well, the statement or any other conversation.
A. I don't think so, no.
Q. You did not?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Did any detectives come to where you were living after you made the
statement to see you?
A. I don't know. I don't recollect.
Q. Did you have any conversation with a District Attorney named Joe
McGill?
A. Not that I recollect.
Q. Did you have any conversations with an
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Deborah Kordansky - Direct
investigator named Robert Greer for the defense?
A. Maybe. Maybe.
Q. Is there --
A. I can't remember if I spoke to the attorney Mr.
Jackson or Robert Greer. I always assumed that I had spoken to the
attorney.
Q. Yeah.
A. But I don't know. I'm not sure.
Q. Right. Well, now that we have Mr. Jackson in the
picture, you do remember talking to Mr. Jackson?
A. I thought so. But that's only in retrospect after I
read newspaper articles and realized he was the defense attorney. So I
thought well, that's probably the person I spoke to.
Q. And you do remember talking to a gentleman who said he was Mr.
Jackson on the telephone?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that once or more than once?
A. I don't know. I think once or twice, I believe.
Q. And in those conversations did Mr. Jackson ask you to come to Court
to testify?
A. I don't remember if he said will you come to Court or will you help
us, how he put it.
Q. Did you indicate what your feelings were about
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Deborah Kordansky - Direct
coming to Court, whether you would or would not come to Court?
A. Well, I felt some reluctance, of course, you know,
it's a lot to do. But, umm, I also, if I remember correctly, when I spoke
to him I had been in a bike accident - And I had very bad facial injuries,
head wounds. And umm, I wasn't in the greatest state of mind.
Q. And do you remember if he asked you what your address was?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Would you have given him your address?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you remember whether or not there was any
discussion between you and Mr. Jackson about your attitude towards black
people?
A. Yes.
Q. And could you recall what that was?
A. Well, I wasn't specific. I never said that I had an
uncomfortable attitude about black people. I had an uncomfortable attitude
about black men. Because I had been raped in 1978.
Q. And you told Mr. Jackson that?
A. Yes.
Q. And was that the reason why you didn't come to
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Deborah Kordansky - Direct
Court?
A. I don't think so, no.
Q. What was the reason why you didn't come to Court?
A. Well, I wasn't called to Court, I don't believe.
Q. Well, didn't he request that you come to Court?
A. I don't know. Umm, I felt some reluctance because I
had been in a bike accident. And I really, I wasn't getting around too
well. But I mean I had bandages all over my face.
Q. And Mr. Jackson, you indicated -- correct me if I am
wrong -- Mr. Jackson asked you if you would help us?
A. I think.
Q. And did you tell him you didn't want to help him?
A. No, I think I said that I don't think I could be of
any help because I felt that the, what I had witnessed and the statement
basically stood on it's own. And at that point especially, I had lost
memory of what had gone on really in the case. But I knew that my
testimony, my written testimony was the most accurate it could possibly
be.
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Deborah Kordansky - Direct
Q. You had lost memory from December to June?
A. I think that in a case like this, when there is a lot
of media coverage, you lose memory within days because there's so much
other influence, you know, so much other stimuli.
Q. Did you tell that to any detectives who interviewed you after the
event?
A. No.
MR. GRANT: Objection: That presumes that there were interviews after
this one interview.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Now, are you saying -- and correct me if I am wrong --
that you no longer in June of 1982 had confidence in the accuracy of your
recall because of the stimulation from news media reporting about the
case?
A. At that time in 1982, you know, six months later, yes, I would
imagine that, yes.
Q. Now, so, Miss Kordansky, you are of a mind that if you
can't remember things accurately and confidently, you don't want to
speculate because you might be wrong, given the fact that you watch
media?
A. I mean that's what -- unless I am seeing it I am speculating.
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Deborah Kordansky - Direct
Q. Unless what?
A. Unless I am presented the statement this is speculation.
Q. Fine. And there was a great deal of media about the case after the
event? Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you watched it?
A. Not religiously but, you know, it came up here and there.
Q. And by watching it I am inferring television. Did you also read
about the case?
A. Yeah, I read.
Q. So by June of 1982 you had some idea from the media about who Mr.
Jamal was?
A. Yes.
Q. And you had some idea from the media about what some of the issues
were surrounding this case?
A. Ahh, I don't think so. Actually --
Q. You don't think so?
A. Not, not in full detail, no. I knew some what was superficial
information, I would say.
Q. But when Mr. Jackson called you in June and asked you
about being a witness in this case, you knew what case he was talking
about?
A. Oh, yes, of course.
Page 215.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
Q. And you knew it involved Mr. Jamal (indicating)?
A. Yes.
Q. And didn't you say to him I don't want to help you?
A. I think you asked me that before.
Q. Did you say that?
A. No. I said I don't think I could be helpful for you.
Q. And that's because your memory was conflicted or impaired by what
you saw on TV or read?
A. Many reasons; that was one reason. I also felt that my
statement was as accurate as it could possibly be and it was a simple
statement. I did not witness the crime.
Q. Now, you said that you were interviewed, you made a
statement that night -- or that morning, to be more accurate?
A. Yes.
Q. Right?
A. Yeah.
Q. And you don't remember talking to any detectives from
that morning until, until you were subpoenaed in connection with this
proceeding?
A. No, I don't remember that, no.
Page 216.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
Q. You don't remember talking to Sergeant Farkas --
F-A-R-K-A-S -- of the Internal Affairs Bureau on April 13th, 1982?
A. No. But if you go into more detail I might remember.
Q. Now, when the detectives came to see you about
appearing in this proceeding, did they show you a statement that was given
to Sergeant Farkas in April of '82?
A. I don't know when this statement was written. I don't know.
Q. The statement you are pointing to is the statement
that you hand wrote in the early morning hours of December 9th. The
statement that I am referring to is a two-page statement.
A. Okay.
Q. That you gave, allegedly, to Sergeant Farkas on April
13th, 1982. Did the detectives who brought you here and interviewed you in
connection with this proceeding show you the two-page statement?
A. No.
Q. They never did?
A. No.
Q. They didn't when they saw you at home?
A. No.
Page 217.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
Q. They didn't when they saw you the first day you were here?
A. No.
Q. They didn't when they saw you today?
A. No. As a matter of fact, that's why I don't remember
being interviewed by Detective Farkas: Because I was not told about this
statement.
Q. You were never given this statement (displaying)?
A. No.
Q. By any representatives of the District Attorney's Office?
A. No.
MR. GRANT: May I see it?
MR. WEINGLASS: I would like to show you this document.
MR. GRANT: May I see it?
MR. WEINGLASS: Oh, I'm sorry (handing).
(Pause.)
MR. GRANT: May the record reflect this is the first time
in my life I have ever seen this statement.
MR. WEINGLASS: Okay. Apparently the police are still keeping statements
from the
Page 218.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
District Attorney's Office. Even today.
THE COURT: That's Internal Affairs, Counselor.
MR. WEINGLASS: Pardon?
THE COURT: That is Internal Affairs.
MR. WEINGLASS: They are members of the police.
THE COURT: Yes, but that is a separate unit.
MR. WEINGLASS: They all seem to be working in sync.
THE COURT: No, they are not working together. All
together different. If you don't know about that you have a problem.
MR. WEINGLASS: I'm learning.
THE COURT: Okay, hopefully you are. Well, wait awhile. Was that
marked?
THE COURT OFFICER: No, it is not marked.
(Investigation interview record was
marked Defense
Exhibit D-21 for identification.)
THE COURT OFFICER: D-21, Your Honor.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Now, you told us one of the reasons why you felt that you couldn't
testify in the trial was
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Deborah Kordansky - Direct
because of the confabulation of what you saw, read, and
what you recall that night, that you felt that you couldn't be accurate,
that was one reason?
A. Yes.
Q. Could another reason be that, Miss Kordansky, you also tend to block
negative things?
A. No, no, I obsess on negative things.
Q. You obsess on negative things. Does that mean -- what does that
mean?
A. Usually with something negative, something with,
something bad, when something bad occurs, I think about it a lot.
Q. And so you have good memory of it?
A. No. Not always. Sometimes I distort.
Q. Pardon?
A. Sometimes I'll distort with memory too.
Q. Sometimes you distort?
A. Sometimes, yeah, when a person obsesses they can distort negative
information as well.
Q. So if you obsess you may distort but you don't block --
MR. GRANT: Your Honor, I object. I believe the basis of
this witness is that Mr. Jackson is ineffective because she could offer
exculpatory evidence. Now, I don't want to get
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Deborah Kordansky - Direct
into paranormal psychology, or psychiatric undertones, or
anything like that. But I would like to hear the exculpatory evidence that
he was ineffective for not bringing out, please. I object to anything
that's not that.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WEINGLASS: We are talking about a statement that the
District Attorney's Office should have had for 14 years. It's all in the
statement.
THE COURT: Yes, should have had. He didn't have. Why don't you show her
the statement.
MR. GRANT: Yes.
MR. WEINGLASS: One moment, Your Honor. I am entitled to question the
witness.
THE COURT: It is not fair to be asking about a statement
she doesn't remember. Unless you give it to her so she could read it and
refresh her memory. Then you could ask her any questions you want.
MR. WEINGLASS: We will get to that. I am following, Your
Honor, the same path of examination that Counsel followed with Mr.
Hightower this morning. First the question and
Page 221.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
then the clarification from the statement.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. So that I am clear -- and I will move off of this -- you do not
block negative things?
MR. GRANT: Objection. Everybody does. All the time.
MR. WEINGLASS: Oh. Your Honor --
MR. GRANT: Mr. Weinglass blocks them out from day-to-day talking to
me.
MR. WEINGLASS: Wish I could.
THE WITNESS: I wouldn't make an absolute statement.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. You wouldn't make an absolute statement?
A. No.
Q. But when I asked you a few minutes ago if you block negative things
you said you obsess?
A. I guess I was referring to things that happened to me
personally.
Q. And what about other things, do you block other things?
A. Sometime.
Q. Sometimes. And isn't it a fact that one of the reasons why you
couldn't remember in April what happened in December was because you have
certain
Page 222.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
prejudices around police and around black people?
A. No.
Q. Okay. I now want to show you what's been marked D-21
and direct your attention to the next to last question on page 2 of that
statement.
MR. GRANT: Your Honor, we are not here to prove if she
can remember that and why. We're here to prove what she saw and if it
would have made a difference in the outcome of the case. That's what they
alleged and that's what we are supposed to be proving. What her prejudices
are, who cares. It is what she saw.
THE COURT: It is her original statement that tells us what she saw.
MR. GRANT: Exactly, but they don't want to talk about
that. And I am just saying I object to the line of questioning: It doesn't
go to what she saw and how it would have changed the outcome of the
case.
MR. WEINGLASS: The last line of questioning -- and we are
leading up to what she remembers of what she saw as of April -- I am
talking about April of 1982 -- the question is what could she have
testified to in June of 1982. Here in her statement in April --
Page 223.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
THE COURT: Well, then let her read the whole statement so
she knows what you are talking about. Let her read the whole statement.
And then you could ask her anything that you want. It is not fair. This is
your witness, you know. You ought to be prepared for your own witness and
let the witness at least read the statement so she knows what you are
going to ask her.
THE WITNESS: (Indicating).
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Now, Miss Kordansky, having read what has been marked as C-18, I
believe --
THE COURT: C-l8 or D-18? Boy, don't get the record all fouled up.
THE WITNESS: D-21.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. D-21. Do you remember being asked this question in
April of 1982: Can you explain why you can't remember? And your answer was
I have certain prejudices that affect my memory against and for police.
And black people. And newspaper accounts affect my memory. It's been such
a long time and I can't remember and I tend to block negative things. Did
you tell Sergeant Farkas that in
Page 224.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
April of 1982, two months before this trial?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Well, does your signature appear --
A. Yes.
Q. -- on D-21?
A. That is my signature.
Q. That is your signature. Is it true what's written here?
A. My feelings at that time? I imagine I felt some
feelings like that at the time. But it never precluded my sense of honesty
and my sense of wanting to do the right thing.
Q. Right. It did affect your memory, as you said here?
A. I don't know how accurate I was when I said that.
But... If I said it, maybe I felt that way then.
Q. Were you trying to be accurate with the police when the Sergeant
Farkas questioned you?
A. Yeah. Of course.
Q. So it is accurate?
MR. GRANT: Your Honor --
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
MR. GRANT: I object to that question.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Page 225.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
Q. You don't know. Does having read D-21 refresh your
recollection as to whether or not you indicated to attorney Jackson when
he spoke to you on the phone that one of the reasons why you wouldn't come
to Court was because you have certain prejudices against black people?
MR. GRANT: I believe that question was asked and answered by the
witness.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Now that the witness has read her April statement and
her recollection might be refreshed, does it now refresh your recollection
that that's what you said to Mr. Jackson?
A. I think I really, my biggest emphasis was that the
testimony that I had made didn't seem relevant enough and important enough
for me to come to Court.
Q. You made that judgment?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Right. And he was asking you to come to Court?
A. I don't know if he was asking me or saying will you help us or
something like that. I'm not sure --
Q. And you said no?
A. -- to be specific, I don't know if I said no
Page 226.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
or I don't want to, I don't think I can be helpful to you.
Q. Do you remember about that time two detectives by the
name of Thomas and Morton came to see you?
MR. GRANT: Objection.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. And asked you if you would come to Court?
MR. GRANT: Objection. I don't believe this is anywhere
noted in the record that anybody even knew where this lady lived, so they
couldn't come to see her.
MR. WEINGLASS: I want to represent this to the Court: Mr.
McGill in the record said he was going to send two detectives, Detective
Thomas -- who just left the stand -- and Detective Morton to go see Miss
Kordansky to see if she would come. They then reported back to Court
through Mr. McGill that they had seen Miss Kordansky and that Miss
Kordansky said she would not come.
MR. GRANT: If he could point you to that in the record I will give him
$50.
MR. WEINGLASS: Oh. May I have a moment?
THE COURT: Sure.
Page 227.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
(Pause.)
MR. WEINGLASS: I am doing this piecemeal. On June 3Oth,
1982, on page 13 Mr. McGill says the following to the Court. I will do
this. I understand the situation and there has been another case where
this came up, although I will admit in other cases I was at least advised
a little bit more than one day before. But in this case, Judge, I will
have one of my detectives also call her to see what the situation is,
because we don't know her address either. We can't subpoena somebody when
we don't know where they live.
THE COURT: Well, that is a little different from what you just
said.
MR. WEINGLASS: Yeah, then there is a report back.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. WEINGLASS: From Mr. McGill after his detectives
completed their mission. And I'm just doing this by way of
introduction.
THE COURT: Yes, okay.
MR. WEINGLASS: Yeah. Does the offer of $50 stand until morning?
THE COURT: No, Counselor, this
Page 228.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
witness is on the stand.
MR. WEINGLASS: I am not asking the witness to stay. I am
just saying I will bring it in tomorrow morning.
THE COURT: I can't condone gambling. If you were to do this.
MR. WEINGLASS: I didn't make the offer. I am willing to
make the acceptance but I didn't make the offer.
THE COURT: Whatever you do with the D.A. is all right but
do that out of my hearing. I can't condone any gambling in this Courtroom.
Please.
MR. GRANT: I apologize, Your Honor, to put you in this compromising
position.
THE COURT: I realize that.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. In any event, Miss Kordansky, you don't remember
whether or not detectives came to see you or called you on the phone,
around the time of the trial?
A. No.
Q. Is it that you do remember and they didn't or you don't
remember?
A. I don't remember.
Page 229.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
Q. And they might have?
A. I don't remember and they might have.
Q. Now let's go to December 9th, 1981. Where were you living at that
time?
A. That's the date of the crime?
Q. Yeah.
A. At the St. James House.
Q. And where is the St. James House located?
A. 13th and Walnut Street.
Q. And does the St. James House overlook -- no, strike
that. Your apartment in the St. James House overlooked the intersection of
Locust and 13th?
A. Yes.
Q. And there is a parking lot before you and so you could look out over
the parking lot?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And are you able to see the entire block from 13th to
12th on Locust or only a portion of Locust?
A. You are talking in the present tense. I am not still
there so I am not that accurate as to how far I could see. But I think I
could only, I think I could only see part of the street, part of Locust
Street.
Page 230.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
Q. Part of Locust --
A. And all of -- most of 13th.
Q. From 13th you would be able to see looking east a part of
Locust?
A. Yes. Except I think my window faced, I think it faced
Locust, one of my windows. It was a corner apartment, so it faced
Locust.
Q. Facing Locust, approximately, just then, give me an
estimate of how much of Locust you could see? Would it be 200 feet? 300
feet? Looking east from 13th.
A. Yes, that's nearly impossible for me to say. Less than half of the
street.
Q. Less than half going down to 12th?
A. Oh. Okay. Wait a minute. Yeah, right, right, yes, going east.
Q. Is that right?
A. Yeah.
Q. So from 13th going towards 12th you could see half of Locust?
A. No more than half. So I don't know if it was like a
quarter, you know, or half of Locust or how much.
Q. And did you have an unobstructed view of that part of Locust?
Page 231.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
A. Well, there were buildings below me but I was on a
higher floor so I believe I did have an unobstructed view.
Q. And you were in a higher floor?
A. Yes, than the buildings, some of the buildings, I believe.
Q. Right. Would you be up above the 10th floor?
A. I don't remember what my apartment number, what floor I was on.
Q. Without being precise, you were above, let's say, the first four or
five floors?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. So there was no building obstruction looking out to Locust,
right?
A. I don't think so.
Q. And how far were you from the sidewalk on the north
side of Locust? Sorry. The south side? Sorry.
A. The St. James House borders Chancellor Street, I
believe it's Chancellor Street. And then below that is Locust Street.
Chancellor Street is like a little half-a-block street, sort of.
Q. How far would you be, would you say you were 100 feet
from the sidewalk on Locust, on the south side, or were you more like 500
feet?
Page 232.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
A. I can't estimate. I... let's see... I don't know.
Q. Well, is it further than from here to the back of the Courtroom?
A. I think a little bit further, yes.
Q. From where you were to the sidewalk on Locust Street?
A. Yes. I guess quite a bit further.
Q. Twice as far as from you to the back of the Courtroom?
A. It could be, but I'm not, I'm not sure.
Q. Now, that night around 3:45 to 4:00 a.m. in the morning you heard
gunfire; isn't that correct?
A. Yes, but I didn't know it was gunfire, at first I thought it was
firecrackers.
Q. Right. But you heard either firecrackers or gunfire and you looked
out your window?
A. No.
Q. What did you do?
A. Ahh, you know, continued whatever I was doing in my apartment.
Q. I see. So after you heard -- you do remember hearing firecrackers or
gunfire?
A. (Witness nodded head affirmatively.)
Q. And it is your testimony that when you heard
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Deborah Kordansky - Direct
it you did not look out your window?
A. No, I did not.
Q. What were you doing at the time?
A. God knows. I really don't know. It's a long time ago.
Q. And did you then go downstairs?
A. No.
Q. Did you then go to the Police Department?
A. No.
Q. Did you then contact any police investigator?
A. No.
Q. Or police?
A. No.
Q. That night? That morning?
A. After I heard the shots?
Q. Yeah.
A. No.
Q. Did any investigators contact you that morning?
A. No. You mean right after the shots?
Q. Yeah.
A. No.
Q. Or, let's say, before eight o'clock in the morning?
A. I don't remember. I know I, did I make my --
Page 234.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
I don't remember when I made my statement but I imagine
it was right after the crime. But I don't think I -- I don't know if
anybody contacted me right afterwards.
Q. Well, did you remember you made a statement?
A. Yes.
MR. GRANT: On what occasion, Your Honor.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Right after the crime?
A. To tell you the truth, I distinctly don't remember
whether it was right after the crime or the next day.
Q. I see. But you remember writing something out?
A. Yeah.
MR. GRANT: Objection. There has been no testimony that she wrote this
document (displaying).
MR. WEINGLASS: Okay, fair enough.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Did you write something out?
A. It's not my, it's not my writing.
Q. It is not your writing?
A. No.
Page 235.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
Q. So, then, Miss Kordansky, you never wrote something out?
A. I don't think this is my writing.
Q. Right. Did a uniformed police officer write this statement?
A. I think so.
Q. And where was that uniformed police officer when he wrote this
statement?
A. I don't remember. Possibly in the lobby of my, of my
building. Or possibly on the street, I'm not sure.
Q. So you saw a police officer in the lobby or on the street?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you have a conversation with him?
A. Yes. But this is in... what is the time sequence of
this that we are talking about anyway? We are talking about right after
the gunshots, or right after the gunshots, sirens, et cetera?
Q. After the gunshots and the sirens, et cetera.
A. Oh, okay. After. After that, yes, I went downstairs.
Q. You went downstairs?
A. Yes.
Q. After the gunshots and the sirens?
Page 236.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
A. Yes, I'm pretty sure I did.
Q. You went downstairs?
A. I'm positive I did, yes.
Q. And there were other people downstairs?
A. Umm, the doorman, but I don't know about other people.
Q. And there was a police officer there?
A. Not right there, no.
Q. Well, did a police officer come there?
A. Not into the building that I know of, no. I walked
outside of the building and walked around the block.
Q. And when you walked around the block, did you walk on
towards Locust or did you walk the other way, towards around Walnut?
MR. GRANT: I object to this line of questioning. He has
yet to even approach what she saw and how that would have changed the
outcome of this case at trial in 1982.
MR. WEINGLASS: We are getting to the statement. Which is why we asked
her.
THE COURT: Let's get to the statement.
MR. WEINGLASS: We are getting there.
THE COURT: It sounds almost like you
Page 237.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
are trying to impeach your own witness before you even
get to the statement. Let's get to the statement.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. When you walked, was it after you walked that you
found the police officer who you talked to who wrote the statement?
A. Yes.
Q. And was that officer on Locust when he wrote the statement?
A. I don't know.
Q. Were there other police officers in the vicinity?
A. After the crime? Ahh, yes, yes.
Q. So when this officer wrote the statement there were other police
officers around?
A. Yes. I don't know if they watched him writing the
statement, but I saw around that block other police officers.
Q. Other police officers?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, can you recall today what you told that police officer?
A. Yes.
Q. You can recall that?
Page 238.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
A. Well, no, I can't recall what I told the police
officer. I could recall today what I saw and heard, I think.
Q. You think.
A. Yeah.
Q. Yeah?
A. I'm sure I heard gunshots. I saw police cars. I also
remember -- there are two vivid images in my mind from this. One was the
squad cars and the police van. And the other vivid image was going around
the block and seeing a squad car with two policemen in it crossing
themselves because they had just gotten word from the hospital that
Faulkner was dead.
Q. And those are the images that remain with you?
A. Yes.
Q. But, Miss Kordansky, didn't you tell the police that
night, the policeman you saw, who wrote a statement, that you saw a man, a
male running on the south side of Locust Street?
A. (Witness nodded head affirmatively.)
Q. Didn't you tell them that?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they ask you to sign any statement that night?
Page 239.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
A. Umm, I don't know.
Q. Well, will you look at the statement that's there right next to
you?
A. Yes.
Q. Does your signature appear on it?
A. No.
Q. Pardon?
A. No, it doesn't.
Q. Did they ask you to go down to the Roundhouse or the police
headquarters to be interviewed?
A. No.
Q. Did they ask you to take a lie detector test, or a polygraph?
MR. GRANT: Objection: Beyond the scope of this witness
and their offer of proof as to this witness.
THE COURT: I will sustain that.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Did they ever come back to you, to your recollection,
and say to you what did you mean, Miss Kordansky, when you said you saw
someone running south on Locust Street?
MR. GRANT: Objection. It doesn't say running south on
Locust because if it were she wouldn't be on Locust --
Page 240.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. That you saw a male running on the south side of Locust Street?
Sorry.
A. (Witness nodded head affirmatively.)
Q. Did they ever come back and ask you that?
A. No.
Q. Okay.
A. I don't remember. I mean, I don't remember that.
Q. Did they ever ask you to write a statement in your own hand?
A. I don't remember.
Q. And have you ever seen a statement of yours in your own
handwriting?
A. No.
Q. In connection with this case?
A. No. --
Q. Miss Kordansky, did they ask you when it was that you
saw the man, a male running on the south side of Locust Street?
A. Well, I told them the sequence of events. First
hearing the gunshots. Then hearing sirens. Going to my window. Looking out
seeing police cars and vans. And then seeing someone running.
Q. Do you recall today in August of 1995 that you
Page 241.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
gave them that precise sequence? Do you really recall that today?
(Pause.)
A. It's logical.
Q. It's...?
A. It's the way my mind would work. I know I wouldn't go
to a window if I heard firecrackers but I would go to a window if I heard
a siren, yes.
Q. And that's how you piece it together: It isn't really
your recall, it's your belated logical piecing together of what you think
is logical?
A. Let me think for a minute.
MR. GRANT: Your Honor, it is written down the same night
at 4:56, less than an hour later. So we are not really talking about
recall here, we are talking about being able to read and write.
MR. WEINGLASS: Not written down by this witness. Written down by a
police officer.
THE COURT: Given by this witness she said.
MR. WEINGLASS: Oh, okay.
THE COURT: She told us that she could remember she told the police
officer.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Page 242.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
Q. You were about to say something and you were interrupted?
A. I was trying to think about whether I could
remember... the thing is I remember distinctly sounds of gunshots, and
distinctly I could remember the, seeing, hearing the sirens and seeing the
cars. Those are the two things that I distinctly remember.
Q. Those are the two things you remember?
A. Distinctly.
Q. And it could be, Miss Kordansky, that you saw a male
running on the south side of Locust Street between those two things?
MR. GRANT: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Absolutely not.
BY MR. WEINGLASS: --
Q. Why do you say that?
A. Because I wouldn't go to the window -- first of all, if I made this
statement I wouldn't lie.
Q. But you didn't make this statement: It was written by a police
officer?
THE COURT: Well.
MR. GRANT: He is impeaching his own witness. THE COURT: Yes, please.
This is your witness.
Page 243.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
MR. GRANT: In addition to which because she said she
wouldn't lie but he said well, this was made by a police officer. What is
the implication of that?
MR. WEINGLASS: Whatever.
THE COURT: Well, I think they interrupted you. Did you want to say
something?
THE WITNESS: I just know in my own logic that I wouldn't
go to a window for firecrackers. I mean there are a lot of noises in that
area. But the sound of sirens I would go to the window for.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. There are a lot of sirens, too, in that area, aren't there, a
lot?
A. No.
Q. There aren't many sirens in that area?
A. Not of the magnitude of 12, 10 or eight police cars, no.
Q. Well. It is --
A. It's not usual.
Q. But in April of 1982, more than 13 years ago, you told
the police who interviewed you why you couldn't remember it, and you said
I have prejudice that affects my memory against and for police and
Page 244.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
black people?
MR. GRANT: Objection.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Is that why?
A. Can I tell you something else about my character?
Because you seem to want to defame my character in implying that I would
conspire to not reveal evidence because of prejudice. I was raped and I
did have some problems, I felt discomfort with black people -- with black
men. But my honesty and my sense of what was true would preclude that. I
would never lie and conspire. I don't know this man (indicating the
Defendant). I just wouldn't do it.
Q. What we are talking about is your inability to
remember, period. And what I am questioning you about is: You've never
made a written statement on your own, you've never made a tape recording,
you haven't even seen your April '82 statement, and here 13 years later
you are trying to recall but you acknowledge that your memory is not that
good?
A. Yes.
Q. Was your memory better in June of 1982 than it is now?
A. Umm, was that the time of the bike accident?
Q. No, June of '82 is the time of the trial.
Page 245.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
A. If...
Q. Most of us lose some memory in 13 years?
A. Oh, of course, absolutely.
Q. And you also have lost memory?
A. The most accurate I could be is the statement I gave.
That was the most accurate I could possibly be.
Q. But you never wrote a statement?
A. I gave it, then.
Q. You gave it and when did you next see this statement that you
gave?
A. Recently.
Q. For 13 years you haven't seen it?
A. No.
Q. You can't testify whether it's accurate or not?
MR. GRANT: Your Honor, I believe --
BY WEINGLASS:
Q. Can you?
MR. GRANT: I believe what the witness is stating is that
this contemporaneously recorded document was true when given, so it is
what is called in evidence past recollection recorded which she now
adopts. So this becomes the witness, for all intents and purposes -
And
Page 246.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
he keeps trying to impeach her instead of that.
MR. WEINGLASS: Past recollection recorded from law school.
MR. GRANT: Thank you.
MR. WEINGLASS: With the author on the stand. When the
author writes something down and takes the stand, the author can refer
back to his or her writing. She never wrote anything down.
THE COURT: Why are you questioning her about that? She
said she gave the statement to the police officer.
MR. WEINGLASS: Well, we are testing that, she hasn't seen it in 13
years.
THE COURT: Well, then, Counsel --
MR. BURNS: Under Pennsylvania law it is not necessary for
the declarant to record the statement of a past recollection, it could be
written down by someone else.
MR. WEINGLASS: That's refreshing recollection. Which is different.
MR. BURNS: Mr. Weinglass is incorrect, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Page 247.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
Q. So you haven't seen the statement for 13 years?
A. No.
Q. All right. And the two things that you remember, the
salient things, were the officers in the police car crossing themselves,
and the sirens?
A. And the gunshots, yes.
Q. And the gunshots?
A. Yes.
Q. That's what you remember?
A. Yes. I vaguely remember there was somebody running.
Q. And you remember somebody running?
A. I vaguely remember that.
Q. Vaguely remember?
A. Yes.
Q. When you talked to the police officer that night, were
you trying to help the police in solving a crime?
A. Yes... I'm sorry, it seems like an absurd question.
Q. You were trying to help?
A. If I could, you won't restate it. I was trying to be a good
citizen.
Q. All right, that is a better way of putting it.
Page 248.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
A. Thank you.
Q. And it would help the police, would it not, and make
sense that it would help the police, by saying, in effect, you saw someone
running away who was probably the shooter and you were telling the police
right then and there the shooter ran away?
A. I didn't say --
Q. You said you saw a male running?
A. Yes.
Q. You were trying to help, you were being a good citizen?
A. I didn't say when.
Q. Pardon?
A. I did not say away.
Q. You saw him running?
A. I saw someone running.
Q. And you were trying to be a good citizen and you were
trying to help the police. And aren't you trying to tell the police in
helping them that the person -- this is my inference -- that the person,
you were telling the police, you were directing them that the shooter ran
away, and as a good citizen you are telling them I saw him run away and
you ought to try to catch him? Isn't that why you told the police
that?
Page 249.
Deborah Kordansky - Direct
A. That's the cops and robbers way of looking at it from television,
yes.
Q. This is a cops and robbers event?
A. But that's not how I think. I am a little for --
Q. You thought it would be helpful for the police to know
that after they were all there with tens of police cars and vans, you
thought it would help the police to tell them that after all you folks
were here I saw someone run?
A. No, I think the running was part of the flow of the
whole situation. There was a man killed, there's panic. Someone was
running, maybe two people are running, maybe three people are running, you
know. There's police, there's news crews, et cetera.
Q. And that's the sequence; isn't that right?
A. That's the sequence.
Q. What you just described is the sequence that you saw.
A. That I don't know. Because I didn't --
MR. WEINGLASS: All right, we will leave it at that. Thank you.
- - - - -
CROSS-EXAMINATION
- - - - -
Page 250.
Deborah Kordansky - Cross
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. Miss Kordansky, good afternoon. I just have two
questions. Do you know whether it was a male or female that you saw
running? If you could answer it. If you can't, don't.
MR. WEINGLASS: Statement is available right there. If you --
THE WITNESS: I assumed it was a male because the person
was wearing pants, but you can't see, it is quite a distance.
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. Right on your statement there, ma'am, it says you were
living at that time 10 floors above the City street: lOOl? Is that right?
Is that correct?
A. Yes, above the street of Chancellor Street.
Q. And you were interviewed, it says here, at St. James
House; does that refresh your recollection?
A. Yes.
Q. And it was at 4:56 a.m., and you said when you looked
out your window you are telling us today you saw police cars and vans, a
number of them, and when you saw this person running were they running to
a phone?
A. I can't say.
Q. When they ran did they run out of your line of
Page 251.
Deborah Kordansky - Redirect
vision?
A. I -- no, I don't know.
Q. Did you see that person with a gun in their hand, with dreadlocks
and a red-and-blue sweater?
A. No. I don't even think I could have seen colors on a
person - I could see the colors -- well, I don't even know if I saw the
colors of the police cars, but I saw the lights.
Q. Could you tell us whether or not that was a policeman running?
A. I couldn't tell, no.
MR. GRANT: Thank you, ma'am.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. That person you saw running, your vision of that
person running on the south side of Locust was cut off because that person
ran in a building and a building was obstructing your view; isn't that
correct?
MR. GRANT: Your Honor, first of all, he is impeaching his own witness
and she didn't say that.
MR. WEINGLASS: I am just asking.
Page 252.
Deborah Kordansky - Redirect
THE WITNESS: I don't know where, which way they were running.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. You don't know which way they were running?
A. I don't think. I mean when I look back at my memory it looks like
they were going east.
Q. Yes.
A. But I don't know.
Q. Right. But your best memory, that's fair, is that this
person was running on the south side going east, right?
A. That is an image that is in my mind, yes.
Q. All right. And it was a male, your best memory?
A. I thought so because --
Q. You told the police that?
A. Yeah, I thought so.
Q. The bottom line, Miss Kordansky, that night is one
hour after the shooting you provided information to the police which you
thought would help the police; isn't that the bottom line?
A. Yes, I was trying to be a good citizen, right.
MR. WEINGLASS: Thank you.
- - - - -
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
Page 253.
Deborah Kordansky - Recross
- - - - -
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. Ma'am, when that person or those persons were running
east, were they running towards the congregation of police vans and
vehicles?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Well, were they running east from 13th?
A. That's what I thought.
Q. Going towards 12th?
A. That's the image that's in my mind, but I don't remember.
Q. Okay. Do you know that Officer Faulkner was in the
middle of the block where he was killed, between 12th and 13th?
A. I didn't know where it was.
Q. I am telling you that and assume that is the case.
MR. WEINGLASS: It wasn't in the middle, Your Honor.
According to Officer Land who measured it for the District Attorney it
wasn't in the middle.
MR. GRANT: Excuse me, Counsel.
MR. WEINGLASS: Well.
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. Assuming he was in the middle of the block,
Page 254.
Deborah Kordansky - Redirect
ma'am --
MR. WEINGLASS: I appreciate the offer. Now that he sees
the jacket was red and blue and this morning it was red and black, I think
he is learning a little something here, gradually.
MR. GRANT: My jacket's blue, it looks black.
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. Assuming he was in the middle of the block and you saw the person
running east --
MR. GRANT: Will you stop it. You made your objection.
BY MR. GRANT:
Q. Would that person have been running towards the police
congregated towards the middle of the block, or were they already beyond
the middle of the block and they were running, going now almost at 12th
Street?
A. They were going east. But I don't know if they were
running away from the vans, I am -- not away. If they were running towards
the vans, if they were in the middle of the street, or away from them.
MR. GRANT: Okay. I appreciate that. Thank you, ma'am.
Page 255.
- - - - -
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
- - - - -
Deborah Kordansky - Redirect
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. You are clear, though, it was on the south side of Locust? Your
statement does say that?
A. Okay.
Q. On the south side running east?
A. That's the image that comes to mind. But I'm not, I can't be that
definite about it, yes.
MR. GRANT: I have nothing further, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay. You are excused. Who do we have for tomorrow,
gentlemen?
MR. WEINGLASS: Yes, we have, we have unquestionably Dr. Hayes from New
York City.
THE COURT: Okay. Who else?
MR. WEINGLASS: We have Ward Churchill.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WEINGLASS: Counsel indicated this morning that there
was a question about Ward Churchill. Is there a question?
MR. GRANT: Yes, a lot of questions
Page 256.
about Ward Churchill. We have objections.
MR. WEINGLASS: I thought you would.
THE COURT: Who else? Who else? Gentleman, if you don't
know, it's 23 minutes of 6:00 already. Could I have the names, please.
MR. WEINGLASS: Your Honor, what happens to us --
THE COURT: Counselor, just give me the names, don't give
me any sad stories. All I want to know is who are you calling
tomorrow.
MR. WEINGLASS: I will be as brief as I can. When we are
told this morning that 11 of our subpoenas are quashed we have to do a
little scrambling.
THE COURT: You were told that yesterday, Counsel. Don't
bring up that material again. The only reason you got it today is because
I didn't have the order to sign yesterday. But orally in the Courtroom I
told you that.
Now, please, you have two. Come on, elect somebody else. Who else do
you want?
MR. WEINGLASS: We have entered into a stipulation I
believe with the Commonwealth on three witnesses: Darlene Sampson --
Page 257.
THE COURT: Wait awhile.
MR. WEINGLASS: Beverly Greene.
THE COURT: Wait awhile. Darlene Sampson: You don't have her on your
list, I don't believe.
MR. WEINGLASS: She was one of the suppressed, she was one
of the quashed-subpoenaed witnesses. But we have entered into a
stipulation which --
THE COURT: Where is that on your list? I am trying to find it on my
list.
MR. GRANT: Judge, these were people that they offered
earlier on before they even began giving us lists.
THE COURT: Oh, okay.
MR. GRANT: Jurors who would say I was on the panel that
was impaneled for selection in the case of Commonwealth versus Mr. Jamal.
And they would, our stipulation is that they would come into Court and
they would say -- and we are not verifying the accuracy of it -- that they
would come into Court and they would say I was voir dired and I was
released, I am a black person.
THE COURT: Okay.
Page 258.
MR. WEINGLASS: No, they would say I was peremptorily challenged.
MR. GRANT: Peremptorily challenged.
MR. WEINGLASS: By the District Attorney.
MR. GRANT: No, that is not the stipulation.
THE COURT: What is the last name: Darlene what?
MR. WEINGLASS: Sampson.
MR. GRANT: Sampson.
THE COURT: S-A-M-P-S-O-N.
MR. GRANT: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Who is the other one?
MR. WEINGLASS: Beverly Greene.
THE COURT: Wait awhile.
MR. WEINGLASS: Alma.
THE COURT: Beverly Greene. Go ahead.
MR. WEINGLASS: Beverly Greene and Alma Lee Austin.
THE COURT: Alma Lee Austin. How do you spell that?
MR. WEINGLASS: A-U-S-T-I-N.
THE COURT: Austin, A-U-S-T-I-N. What is your agreement?
Page 259.
MR. GRANT: The stipulation is that these three
individuals would under oath state to Your Honor that they were among the
venire persons drawn and congregated in 253, that they were voir dired by
both sides, and that they were all three peremptorily struck. And they
would identify themselves as African Americans, at that time. And the
record will reflect who struck them.
Correct?
MR. WEINGLASS: Agreed, that stipulation we will agree, including the
reference to the record.
THE COURT: Then we don't need them.
MR. WEINGLASS: We don't need them, that's why --
THE COURT: We have two we need.
MR. GRANT: Of course, we are not saying these people are them.
THE COURT: I understand that. Of course.
MR. WEINGLASS: You are not saying that they are them?
MR. GRANT: No, I am saying that they are saying they are them. What
else are you
Page 260.
going to do, bring in fingerprints and ID's? I don't know.
(Discussion was held off the record at
this time among
defense Counsel.)
THE COURT: All right, who else besides Dr. John Hayes and
Ward Churchill? I mean who else? Live witnesses, now. I am trying
to...
MR. WEINGLASS: Yeah, Ward Churchill. Is Ward Churchill --
THE COURT: You gave us that already.
MR. WEINGLASS: Is he an agreeable witness?
MR. GRANT: No, disagreeable.
MR. WEINGLASS: Well, could I hear, Your Honor --
THE COURT: Well, give me all you are going to call and we
will worry about it tomorrow. Who else are you going to call?
(Discussion was held off the record at
this time
between defense Counsel.)
THE COURT: How about, you have an Alma Rachael. Who is that?
MR. GRANT: That is the same person with a married name. Alma Lee
Austin. She's
Page 261.
off.
THE COURT: Oh, that's Austin.
MR. GRANT: Yes.
THE COURT: Oh. That's Alma Lee Austin. Who is this Debbie Sampson?
MR. GRANT: That's Darlene Sampson with a married name. She is off.
That's one of the three.
THE COURT: Darlene Sampson?
MR. GRANT: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: But it says Debbie. All right, Darlene Sampson. I am trying
to find out who is George Ewalt?
MR. GRANT: He was the fore person whose subpoena was quashed.
THE COURT: Oh, okay. Who is William Harmon?
MR. GRANT: That's this person that they found who is going to prove
--
THE COURT: The one in prison?
MR. GRANT: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: That's where the other attorney is today? Okay. And who is
John Lambert?
Page 262.
MR. GRANT: Apparently he is a --
I am giving all the information about your case.
He is a Temple professor who is going to say that --
THE COURT: Temple professor?
MR. GRANT: Psychiatric kind of stuff about jury deliberations.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WEINGLASS: I am told the professor can't be here until Monday.
THE COURT: Well, he may not be here at all, period. So
while you guys argue it out look up the law on this.
How about Arnold Howard: Who is he? That is the last one on the list
that I have here.
MR. WEINGLASS: He is not available. We are trying to locate him.
THE COURT: Who is he? You see, you don't give me anything, I don't even
know who he is.
MR. GRANT: I will tell you who he is.
THE COURT: Who is he?
MR. GRANT: When Police Officer
Page 263.
Faulkner was found dead, apparently he had taken
somebody's identification, that temporary tag from Bassett's travel or
Bassett's car tag place up on Broad Street. And they were asking people
who is this guy, is this yours. And he said yes, I lost it in the back
seat of -- I believe it was... hmm.
(Discussion held off the record at
this time among
Commonwealth Counsel.)
MR. GRANT: In Mr. Jamal's brother's vehicle. So of course
that's going to be the person that committed the crime, I'm sure.
THE COURT: Oh, okay. He is the owner of the car or --
MR. GRANT: He is the owner of the tag that belonged to, the tag on the
license plate.
THE COURT: The owner of the tag. On the car?
MR. GRANT: I will tell Your Honor exactly what --
THE COURT: Just roughly.
MR. GRANT: Let me just check, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay.
Well, are you going to call him?
Page 264.
MR. WEINGLASS: We don't have him available for tomorrow.
MR. GRANT: Of course we are going to ask for his
relevance. Photostatic copy of an application for a duplicate driver's
license is what was found. And they merely inquired when he lost it, and
when did he realize it was lost, Judge. That's basically it. And this
apparently was lost from November 30th, 1981, three weeks before this
crime occurred. And he lost it in Mr. Cook's Volkswagen that was involved
in this incident. That is the vehicle that was stopped by Police Officer
Faulkner.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. GRANT: And I would object to evidence of this nature:
It doesn't support any of their Petition.
THE COURT: All right. Anything else?
MR. WEINGLASS: No, I want to ask if Mr. Churchill will be
permitted to testify, Your Honor. He is a, he is a native American writer,
author, lecturer, and --
THE COURT: Well, did you tell him what you wanted him to testify to or
why?
MR. WEINGLASS: Yes.
Page 265.
MR. GRANT: First, let's reach the threshold question
first. Is that going to be your last witness, sir?
MR. WEINGLASS: No.
MR. GRANT: Who are your witnesses?
MR. WEINGLASS: There are other witnesses.
THE COURT: Who are they?
MR. WEINGLASS: We are in the midst of --
THE COURT: Well, Counselor, I asked you for a complete list.
MR. WEINGLASS: Right. And then you quashed 11 subpoenas.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WEINGLASS: And now we are reassembling our case.
THE COURT: Reassembling?
MR. WEINGLASS: Yes, we would have had 11 more witnesses
that would have gone until next Wednesday. Now that we found ourselves
with quashed witnesses we have to remake our case.
THE COURT: Counselor, this PCRA is taking longer than the trial. The
trial I don't
Page 266.
think was this long. But go ahead. You don't have anybody else,
then?
MR. WEINGLASS: It was run with about the same speed.
THE COURT: Counselor, do you have anybody else?
MR. WEINGLASS: No. For tomorrow.
MR. GRANT: And we will not agree to Mr. Churchill. That
is a lot of mumbo-jumbo as far as we are concerned.
MR. WEINGLASS: What is going to happen to Mr. Churchill?
THE COURT: I don't know. Be prepared to give me some cases on it.
MR. GRANT: Could we have anybody else that they are going to call
tomorrow, Judge?
MR. WEINGLASS: That's it for tomorrow.
THE COURT OFFICER: This Court will now stand adjourned
until 9:30 a.m. tomorrow morning. And Court will be held in Courtroom
653.
(The hearing was adjourned for the day at 5:45 p.m.)
Page 267.
I hereby certify that the proceedings and evidence are
contained fully and accurately in the notes taken by me on the trial of
the above cause, and that this copy is a correct transcript of the
same.
Official Stenographer
Date
The foregoing record of the proceedings upon the trial of
the above cause is hereby approved and directed to be filed.
Judge |