|
Page 2.
| INDEX |
|
| DEFENSE EVIDENCE |
| WITNESS |
DE |
CE |
RDE |
RCE |
| Michael Bell |
3 |
42 |
90 |
105 |
| Lamont Anderson |
113 |
116 |
124 |
-- |
| George Edwards |
126 |
136 |
141 |
-- |
| Richard Childs |
142 |
145 |
-- |
-- |
| DEFENSE EXHIBITS |
| NO. |
DESCRIPTION |
PAGE |
| 3 |
Copy of newspaper article |
130 |
| COMMONWEALTH EVIDENCE |
| WITNESS |
DE |
CE |
RDE |
RCE |
| Roseann Reffner |
167 |
173 |
184 |
188 |
| William Thomas |
195 |
196 |
214 |
216 |
| Daniel Bennett |
225 |
231 |
288 |
289 |
| COMMONWEALTH EXHIBITS |
| NO. |
DESCRIPTION |
PAGE |
| 3 |
Probation file of Veronica Jones |
171 |
Page 3.
- - - - -
(At 10:18 a.m. the hearing was convened in the
presence
of the Court and attorneys.)
- - - - -
THE COURT: Good morning, everyone.
MR. WILLIAMS: Good morning, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Good morning.
MR. WILLIAMS: The defense calls Michael Bell.
Michael Alan Bell, having been duly sworn,
was examined
and testified as follows:
- - - - -
DIRECT EXAMINATION
- - - - -
MR. WILLIAMS: May I inquire, Your honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sure.
MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you.
- - - - -
DIRECT EXAMINATION
- - - - -
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Page 4.
Michael Bell - Direct
Q. Good morning, Mr. Bell.
A. Good morning.
Q. You live in San Diego?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And did you fly in just to testify in this matter?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What do you do for a living?
A. I'm a private investigator.
Q. Since when?
A. October of 1993.
Q. Where are you presently working?
A. Tactical Investigative Services.
Q. And where is Tactical Investigative Services? Could you speak into
the microphone also.
A. Sure. Located in San Diego.
Q. A little closer to the mike.
A. We are located in San Diego.
Q. San Diego?
A. Yes.
Q. And who owns and operates Tactical Investigative Services?
A. George Michael Newman.
Q. Is he your boss as well?
A. Yes.
Page 5.
Michael Bell - Direct
Q. Now let me ask you this. When did you begin work on
the Jamal case? When I say you I mean your office, Tactical Investigative
Services.
MS. FISK: Your Honor, I object to your office on the basis of hearsay
and would ask that it be limited to him.
THE COURT: Well, if he knows.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. When did the office begin work?
A. Roughly late June, first part of July of 1995.
Q. Now I am going to focus your attention exclusively to
the work performed by Tactical Investigative Services with respect to
Veronica Jones.
A. Okay.
Q. Do you understand?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. It is exclusively related to Veronica Jones. When did
the search begin within your office in San Diego for an individual who may
have the name Veronica Jones?
A. The first search I believe was conducted July 5th, 1995.
Q. On July 5th, 1995 --
MS. FISK: Again, Your Honor, I would
Page 6.
Michael Bell - Direct
object. If the witness is testifying on the basis of
records he has reviewed I would object, unless the search was conducted by
this witness.
MR. WILLIAMS: I think I can satisfy Miss Fisk with the very next
question.
MS. FISK: Thank you.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. And when you say the office began it's search for a
person who may be known as Veronica Jones, what was done?
A. We received from Mr. Weinglass the name of an
individual, Veronica Jones, a date of birth, and a possible Social
Security number. The Social Security number was utilized to obtain any
further addresses. One address was located in New Haven, Connecticut.
Q. And did you play any role in that search, using that information
provided by Mr. Weinglass?
A. Yes, I did. I personally did the search to develop the New Haven
address.
Q. And when you say you personally did the search, why don't you give
us an idea of what did you personally do?
A. I just utilized, I just used the Social Security
number developed or that was given to us, ran it through what is called a
credit header. In
Page 7.
Michael Bell - Direct
that you obtain addresses from the three major credit
bureaus without getting into the credit history. That has remained
confidential but the addresses are available.
Q. Okay. And when you ran that -- and that is basically a computer
search; is that right?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. Now, by the way, in receiving this assignment to find
a Veronica Jones, or a person who may have that name Veronica Jones, were
there any particular difficulties that you and your office were facing
--
A. Yes.
Q. -- as investigators? Can you tell the Court what difficulties you
were confronted with at the outset?
A. Okay, in general women are more difficult to locate than men.
Q. Can you explain that for us?
A. Due to the fact that they get married, their names
change. With respect to this particular subject, there was a time span of
13, 14 years that had passed. In that time the subject may have been
married once, twice, any number of times. And in doing so, we did not know
if the name Veronica Jones that we initiated with was in fact her real
name or,
Page 8.
Michael Bell - Direct
we had known that she was a prostitute, which we didn't
know if that was a street name. So the subject in essence was, from the
very onset was very difficult. And due to the amount of time pertaining to
the subject here, it just enhanced the difficulty in general.
Q. So there is a generic difficulty with women and then --
A. Yes.
Q. -- coupled with that a person who may have a variety of names?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, when you did that first computer search with the Social
Security number --
A. Hmm-hmm.
Q. -- the credit header search, what were your results?
A. We found an individual named Veronica Jones in New Haven,
Connecticut.
Q. And what did you do with that information?
A. That information was forwarded back to members of the
defense team and a follow-up interview was conducted. Initially we started
to locate phone numbers. We did not want, one did not really come up.
Page 9.
Michael Bell - Direct
Q. Okay, just to make it clear: You have an address for a Veronica
Jones in New Haven?
A. Hmm-hmm.
Q. And then you try to get a phone number attached to that address?
A. Correct.
Q. And what was the result of that?
A. And we were unable to determine a phone number
without... it was just very difficult to do that. And in turn, in doing
that we obtained phone numbers for immediate neighbors. Contact was made
with those neighbors in an effort to contact the subject.
Q. Okay, so you basically did searches of the surrounding area of the
target location?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was the results from that pursuit?
A. We did not get any information back related to the
subject. It had to be taken a step further and a trip was made to
Connecticut.
Q. Did somebody from your office go to New Haven, Connecticut in
connection with this search?
A. Yes; my boss, Michael Newman.
Q. Michael Newman did?
A. Yes.
Q. And ultimately did this turn out to be a false
Page 10.
Michael Bell - Direct
lead?
A. Yes.
(Discussion was held off the record at this time.)
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Mr. Bell, do you recall approximately when that trip was made by Mr.
Newman?
A. Late July of 1995.
Q. Now, did you then receive an additional lead or
further information to continue your investigation?
A. Yeah. After realizing that that was a false lead,
information came in shortly thereafter of a new name, of a Rhonda Harris,
and two new dates of birth. In an effort to locate her at that point in
time, now we don't know which name is a real name, if either, or if they
are both street names.
Q. Let me stop you there and ask you some questions about
what you just said. You had earlier Veronica Jones with a Social Security
number and a birth date?
A. Correct.
Q. That was the New Haven pursuit?
A. Correct.
Q. That was a false lead?
Page 11.
Michael Bell - Direct
A. Correct.
Q. Now you're getting another name, a Rhonda Harris?
A. Hmm-hmm.
Q. Was it your understanding that this Rhonda Harris was not a
different person but --
A. No.
Q. -- the same person using different names?
A. No, our knowledge was the same person using different names.
Q. Now you had two different dates of birth?
A. Correct. For a total of three.
Q. Three dates of birth now and two names?
A. And two names.
Q. And so you would have a variety of permutations from that?
A. Hmm-hmm.
Q. Because you don't know what date of birth is going where?
A. Yes.
Q. And when you received that additional information, what did your
office do next?
A. We have a search available to us that we can run the
surname and attach it to just a date of birth. A Veronica and date of
birth number one, and
Page 12.
Michael Bell - Direct
search that way for all Veronicas across the country with
that date of birth, regardless of their last name. In essence we did six
searches total: The three searches for Veronica and three searches for
Rhonda using the dates of birth.
Q. Okay. So you have Veronica and the three dates of
birth so that is three searches, then you have Rhonda Harris, you do
Rhonda with those same three dates of birth?
A. Correct.
Q. So you have six searches with the generic names Rhonda and
Veronica?
A. Correct.
Q. By the way, could you explain to the Court why it is that you are
just using the first names?
A. Again due to the possibility of marriage was the main
reason. And that is, you know, we didn't know which last name she was
going by. And we were going to make an effort to locate any viable
subjects in any immediate areas of Philadelphia or Camden.
Q. All right, did you do a nationwide search first?
A. Yes.
Q. And I take it then you wanted to be, you wanted to encompass as much
as you could nationwide?
Page 13.
Michael Bell - Direct
A. Correct.
Q. And what was the result of that particular computer -- by the way,
who did the computer search there?
A. Myself.
Q. And what was your result?
A. The printer kept spitting out paper forever, there was over 80,000
names that were developed.
Q. And throughout the United States?
A. Yes.
Q. And when you, was it realistic with this in excess of 80,000 names
to do a search of each one?
A. No, we did not. We identified, extracted roughly a
hundred names of people along the Eastern seaboard and then any other kind
of states, I think there was a total of 14 states that we've kind of
extracted out with major metropolitan cities that would be a lure to
prostitution.
Q. So you have 80,000 that encompasses the entire United States?
A. Correct.
Q. And then you winnowed it down to a hundred or so names?
A. Hmm-hmm.
Q. Is that a yes?
Page 14.
Michael Bell - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. And those hundred or so names encompass 14 target states?
A. Yes. We did take it a step further. That information
was forwarded to the Jamal defense team. We were then asked to just say
well can you just look at these areas: Philadelphia and Pennsylvania,
Camden and it's surrounding areas within New Jersey. And then two other
states, because if they lead into, Connecticut, initially we searched
there, and in Maryland.
Q. So you gave the defense team the 14 states and the hundred or so
possible addresses?
A. Yes.
Q. And then you were told focus on these four states?
A. Correct.
Q. Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Connecticut and Maryland?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, after making that effort and isolating those four states, what
did you do next?
A. Because of the date of birth information that we
received, we thought well, let's try and locate the subject's parents. At
that time we didn't know
Page 15.
Michael Bell - Direct
names of either her mother or her father. We made a
request to both the State Department of Health, Vital Statistics unit in
both states of Pennsylvania and New Jersey. We did receive information
that she was born in one of the two states. Our request for Pennsylvania
came back negative, saying that the information was restricted to
individuals other than immediate relatives or the subject itself. And we
did not get any information from them.
Q. I'm sorry, from which states?
A. Pennsylvania.
Q. Okay.
A. We did get the request back from New Jersey who told
us that there was no one named Veronica Jones with the date of birth that
we supplied born within the state. And they continued in that respect in
further stating that nobody by the name of Veronica Jones was born in the
state of New Jersey during the year of 1961.
Q. Okay. Now, did you abandon your search for a person named Rhonda
Harris?
A. No.
Q. What did you next do?
THE WITNESS: Jotted a couple notes for sequence purposes.
Page 16.
Michael Bell - Direct
MR. WILLIAMS: If it helps you refresh your recollection.
First, if you could for a courtesy show it to the prosecution as to what
you're using to refresh your recollection.
THE WITNESS: (Handing to Court Officer).
MS. FISK: Thank you.
(Pause.)
MS. FISK: Thank you. Counsel, do you want to see this?
MR. WILLIAMS: No.
MS. FISK: (Handing).
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Mr. Newman, before I ask you --
A. Bell.
Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Bell. Before I ask you what you next
did, are you speaking with a fresh recollection of what you did?
A. Well, prior to my trip out here I did review documents
relating to the searches so I could speak in a cogent and chronological
order of the search and what led up to her contact. Umm, that information
was forwarded to yourself and other members of the team. And I haven't
seen that information since that
Page 17.
Michael Bell - Direct
time.
Q. Okay. Now let's get back to what you and your office
next did in this search for the subject. And let me be clear: We are using
the term subject because we really didn't know what the name was of this
person?
A. Correct.
Q. So you didn't make the assumption that the person's
name was in fact Veronica Jones who just may happen to use other
names?
A. Correct. I've -- because of the fact that she was a
prostitute, the possibility existed that that was a street name. And she
may go by any other name out there. You know, Jane Doe, in essence is what
we were looking for.
Q. And looking for a Jane Doe I imagine is extraordinarily
difficult?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, what's the next thing your office did?
A. Information was received back into our office of a Rhonda Harris
that lived in, on Hatfield Street, I'm not exactly sure where Hatfield
Street is. We researched the property there at that residence and found
out an Alberta Welsh owned the property and was believed to be the one
that was residing at that
Page 18.
Michael Bell - Direct
property. Contact was made by an individual here in
Philadelphia, I believe one of the defense team members, who informed our
office that that was not the subject of our investigation.
Q. That Alberta Welsh was not the subject --
THE COURT: What state was that?
THE WITNESS: That I believe is Philadelphia, I'm not
exactly sure where Hatfield Street is. Contact was made with the
individual at the residence believed to be Alberta Welsh. I did not make
the contact.
MS. FISK: For that reason, Your Honor, I object. This is
clearly hearsay: Information that other people did and thereafter reported
back to Mr. Bell. The fact that it was not the person that they were
looking for I believe can be testified to but no specifics.
MR. WILLIAMS: But what I am establishing is a course of
conduct. And obviously Mr. Bell needs to know the results of particular
searches in order to show what he does next.
MS. FISK: My point, Your Honor, is the fact that the
individual they were seeking was not at that address makes that point,
but
Page 19.
Michael Bell - Direct
not any details with regard to that contact unless this
person made that contact or was present when that contact was made.
THE COURT: Okay.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Now, Mr. Bell, when you learned that this Hatfield
address was another false lead for a Rhonda Harris, did you exhaust your
search -- did you stop your search --
A. No.
Q. -- for Rhonda Harris there?
A. No, that just kind of enhanced it at that point. We
knew that Rhonda Harris did exist in the area. And we completed another
computer search just on the name Rhonda Harris and found two names of
Rhonda Harris with addresses in Philadelphia. Those addresses and
information was again turned over to Counsel for Mr. Jamal and again word
was relayed back to myself that those were not the subjects of the
investigation.
Q. Now, after learning that the searches for a Rhonda
Harris in Philadelphia produced no positive results, what did you and your
office do next?
A. We then received two Social Security numbers, one under the name of
Veronica Jones, one under the
Page 20.
Michael Bell - Direct
name of Rhonda Harris. Those Social Security numbers were
utilized to develop address information, three addresses under each name.
Three addresses for Veronica Jones, three addresses for Rhonda Harris were
developed.
Q. Okay, so you were getting Social Security numbers and
dates of birth from the very outset and you're still getting --
A. Yes.
Q. -- new numbers to crunch?
A. Yes; these were completely different numbers than what was
originally given to us.
Q. Now, because you are getting new numbers to crunch
through the computer to find this person, were you abandoning the old
numbers or did you just keep those in mind?
A. We held onto them but every time something new came
up, that was what we focused on. But no, we did not abandon it, we kept it
aside for any later perusal if necessary.
Q. Okay. And you said you got three addresses for each, each person,
each Veronica Jones and each Rhonda Harris?
A. Correct. Well, three addresses associated with that Social Security
number.
Page 21.
Michael Bell - Direct
Q. Okay. And do you recall what states those addresses were in?
A. I believe Veronica Jones was Camden and Rhonda Harris was... either
Philadelphia and I think one in Maryland.
Q. Okay. And with that, what did you do with that information?
A. That was again turned over to members of the defense
team. And again we were told that the Veronica Jones addresses were
invalid, that the individual contacted there denied being the subject.
MS. FISK: Again, Your Honor, I object to the hearsay. Whether or not
they were the accurate addresses --
THE COURT: Well, there is no jury here: I will --
MS. FISK: Fine, Judge.
THE COURT: I will disregard it.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Now let me ask you at this point: You have mentioned
that you got word back at each step in your investigation that the leads
developed from the computer searches resulted in negative findings?
A. Hmm-hmm.
Q. And I take it, is it your understanding that
Page 22.
Michael Bell - Direct
you provided addresses and that somebody would visit those
addresses?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. All right. As an investigator, when somebody goes to
visit an address and they're told, a person, an investigator is told that
particular subject doesn't live there or can't be found there, does that
necessarily satisfy an investigator that indeed that person can't be
located there?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Would that satisfy you in your capacity as an investigator doing
these computer searches of --
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. He was doing computer searches, not
knocking on doors.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Let me ask you this way. You said you retained the
files or the information of these computer searches, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And you set those aside because the searches were
fruitless?
A. Correct.
Page 23.
Michael Bell - Direct
Q. In your capacity in investigating Veronica Jones or
Rhonda Harris, the subject, were you personally convinced that indeed the
subject would not be at any of those addresses?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. WILLIAMS: It goes to his state of mind as an investigator.
THE COURT: It is not important. This guy is, he operates
with a computer. He puts in whatever information he has and it comes back.
He gives it to someone else to investigate it. What they do with it, he
doesn't know.
MR. WILLIAMS: I agree. What I am asking --
THE COURT: And I don't want him to guess as to what the answer is.
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, I am not asking him to speculate as to what
other people do.
THE COURT: Well, that's what you're asking.
MR. WILLIAMS: Then I apologize. Let me make it very clear.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Page 24.
Michael Bell - Direct
Q. I want to focus on what you do and judgments that you make, okay. Do
you understand that, Mr. Bell?
A. Yes.
Q. First of all, in working at the computer and doing
these searches, is a certain amount of judgment required on your part?
A. Yeah.
Q. And in evaluating the information that you have, did
you satisfy yourself or were you absolutely convinced that all of the
addresses that were visited in the past that produced negative results, as
far as you understood, wouldn't have to be revisited?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained. He gives whatever he has to somebody else and
whatever they do with it, that's it.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, I think the Court has a grievous misunderstanding
of what I am driving at.
THE COURT: He is only a computer man.
MR. WILLIAMS: No, it requires a considerable amount of judgment as to
what to enter.
THE COURT: He puts it into the
Page 25.
Michael Bell - Direct
computer and whatever comes out comes out.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, it takes judgment as to what to enter into the
computer.
THE COURT: Well, what you people give him. Whatever information you
give him, he puts it in.
(Discussion was held off the record at this time.)
THE COURT: Are you going to tell me the computer lies now.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Now, Mr. Bell, after those six addresses were checked
based upon the two new Social Security numbers and found that searches
there were fruitless, did you take any other steps?
A. Well, at least Veronica Jones, the addresses that
were, or where the information came back to us it was fruitless, with
respect to the three addresses for Rhonda Harris, information was related
back to us that those were relatives at those addresses. And that the
relatives had made mention of, that they, that the Rhonda Harris that they
had known has an extensive criminal history. With that in mind we
requested criminal and civil records to be researched in both Camden and
Philadelphia.
Page 26.
Michael Bell - Direct
Q. Go ahead.
A. The criminal records did not come back immediately.
The civil records did. And an address -- an individual named Rhonda Harris
bearing an address in Camden was located. Again that information was
turned over to Counsel.
Q. Now, we are not talking about a duplicative addresses that we
received earlier?
A. No.
Q. So we are compiling a file of numerous addresses here?
A. Correct.
Q. And with this file of numerous addresses, as you are
getting word from people that you are getting negative results at these
addresses, are you just discarding those old addresses?
A. No.
Q. Why, why are you retaining them?
A. Again for perusal later. If need be. Anything that was related to
the subject was retained.
Q. Now, after getting this new Camden, New Jersey address for a Rhonda
Harris, what results were produced from that?
A. Again that it was negative.
Page 27.
Michael Bell - Direct
Q. And did you complete your investigation at that point?
A. At that point in time the name of Louise Tatum was developed and
forwarded to us.
Q. So now you're getting a third name?
A. Correct.
Q. Okay.
A. As far as abandonment, no, we did not abandon the
names of either Veronica Jones or Rhonda Harris, but set them aside to
focus now on the third name.
Q. Am I correct, it seems as if as you're moving along you're
increasing the complexity of your search?
A. Yes, very much so. Because at that time then we had
three names. And again we don't know if those are the subject's real name
or not. Or a name, again, that was possible, you know, six, seven to 14
years later.
Q. And with this new name of Louise Tatum what did your office do?
A. Because of the knowledge that the subject that we had
was a prostitute and the possibility existed that this may be a street
name, we looked up any Tatum that began, whose first name began with the
letter L. In that search, you know, we came up with
Page 28.
Michael Bell - Direct
Larry Tatums and Lawrence Tatums and things along those
lines, but we also came up with female names in the area. I think there
was a Lois, a Lucene -- I hope I pronounce that one correct -- and Lolita.
And those were all either in the Philadelphia or Camden. Or in the
surrounding areas. And those were, once we realized that those names in
that area were developed, we took those names a step further in an attempt
to get a date of birth, their address and phone numbers. And once that was
done, again the information was forwarded back to Counsel.
Q. And here again is another instance of increased complexity as you're
going along?
A. Correct.
Q. Did you then receive additional information from the defense team
that provided you with further leads?
A. Yeah, shortly thereafter we had a, our initial request
for criminal searches had come back. We had handwritten notes from someone
from the defense team that had checked criminal and civil records in
Philadelphia and Camden. And they took it a step further from our initial
request of just Rhonda and Veronica to include Louise Tatum. And once that
information was taken, we extracted pertinent
Page 29.
Michael Bell - Direct
information out of that handwritten notes. New dates of
birth were developed. New names were developed, new Social Security
numbers were developed out of there. Addresses, both residence and work.
We in turn took the Social Security numbers and tried to develop addresses
from this. I believe two new Social Security numbers were developed, plus
there was one Social Security in the files that we had had previously.
We ran all three of those Social Security numbers to
obtain addresses. One of them came back to a Dorothy Oliver with no hint
of a Veronica. Even though it came back to a name that we had never seen
before, we didn't discard it, it was still a viable lead and somebody that
had to be contacted.
Q. Because at this point you still don't know who the subject is?
A. Correct.
Q. So now that is increasing the complexity once again?
A. Correct. The second Social Security number came back
to a Ulanda Bermudes, I think she was down in Florida. And then the third
one again was a Veronica Jones. And that was one that we had
Page 30.
Michael Bell - Direct
previously but because of the time that had passed since
the initial run, we thought this, the new address might have come up in
there. And all of that information was forwarded back to Counsel, who
again said no. At that point in time I had a stack of papers --
Q. Mr. Bell, let me ask you this before I ask you the next
question.
A. Sure.
Q. Pardon me for interrupting you.
A. Sure.
Q. But can you tell us when you really got down to it, to
the serious searches, serious computer searches that you were doing
towards the end of the investigation, about how many names were you
dealing with that you would focus on?
A. Roughly a dozen, I would say twelve or so names.
Q. And how many dates of birth?
A. About nine.
Q. And then how many Social Security numbers?
A. I think there were six total.
Q. And am I right about this, that you have twelve, nine and six?
Page 31.
Michael Bell - Direct
A. Yes.
Q. And then you have all kinds of permutations of those?
A. Yes.
Q. We don't know what date of birth and what Social Security numbers go
together?
A. No.
Q. So it's some whatever figure it is, if you do the math?
A. Yeah.
Q. It's huge?
A. I didn't do it but yeah.
Q. It's huge?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you've got all this information and you said something about
you had a stack of papers?
A. Yeah. Umm, because the last Social Security number was
becoming like maybe that we were kind of chasing our tail and going in a
circle here -- some of the latest information that we developed was
duplications of searches that we had done previously -- I took the stack
of papers and I just basically told myself the subject, no matter what her
name, date of birth, et cetera, is, it's got to be in this stack
somewhere.
Page 32.
Michael Bell - Direct
Q. This is a gut instinct on your part?
A. Yeah, it was because of the fact that we had gone
through the full circle. I took them home and laid them out from end to
end in the living room, some on chairs, some on tables, some on the floor,
just spread everything out. I was literally walking up and down the room
saying, pulling out here is a name, here is an address, and basically
setting a category for everything. Cross referencing back and forth. This
name is connected. Well, here she uses this name and this address, but
here it's the same address but a different name. And I started linking
things together.
Q. It's like a big jigsaw puzzle?
A. Yes. Yes, it is. Umm, in doing so I just sat down on
the computer, I would make a connection, go to my computer, type it in so
I could look at it in a cogent order on paper. Finally, when all that was
done, I forwarded a list of addresses, a list of Social Security numbers,
things that I thought, you know what, this has, this has to be the most
viable leads. I think they winnowed out six Social Security numbers down
to four possibilities.
The same thing with the names and the dates of birth. These are the
ones that keep coming
Page 33.
Michael Bell - Direct
up the most often in all the papers that were laid out.
That again was forwarded back to Counsel and searches were made back here
and she was found in that stack of paper.
Q. So you were right after all?
A. Yes.
Q. I imagine it was a gratifying feeling on your part?
A. Very much so.
Q. By the way, we're talking about communications from
your office in San Diego to the defense team and back and forth. What kind
of turnover time are we talking about? I mean were people sitting on
things for weeks on end?
A. No, at least I don't perceive them to have been
sitting on things. There was about a three to four week, some period
between the searches, sometimes longer, depending on what was happening
back here. The information we would send them, it would take them time to
go out and do them and then develop the new leads. And that was I think
the cause for the distance and time between the searches.
Q. So you do the searches, they go out and do the leg work and you have
to wait a while?
A. Yes.
Page 34.
Michael Bell - Direct
Q. And when you got the information how long did you sit
on the information before you started to plug it into the computer?
A. At the most a day. Generally it was immediately. But --
Q. So on your end you're doing this stuff immediately?
A. Yeah, if I had another case and I was out of the
office, I couldn't do it, and I just put it off until the next morning.
But generally a day.
Q. Okay. You weren't putting things in file cabinets?
A. No.
Q. And waiting around?
A. No.
Q. By the way, did you work with your boss on this particular
assignment?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Newman played an active role with you?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And was there a, was there something about the
search for Veronica Jones that had importance to your office?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Page 35.
Michael Bell - Direct
Q. That bore on the vigor in which you investigated this case?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor.
MR. WILLIAMS: It goes directly to the issue.
THE COURT: No, he could tell us how fast he worked on it. He has
already told you that: At the most a day.
MR. WILLIAMS: The most a day.
THE COURT: Yes, that he waits before he puts it in the computer.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Was it important --
THE COURT: The computer does all the work, you know.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Mr. Bell, was it important for your office to locate this woman?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. I assume that they were hired and this
was a job.
MR. WILLIAMS: No, there is more to it. There is more to it.
MS. FISK: Whether or not there is more to it is not
relevant. It is for the Court to determine based on the description of
the
Page 36.
Michael Bell - Direct
work done by the witness the degree of diligence.
THE COURT: That's right, he already told you he never wasted more than
a day.
(Discussion held off the record at this time.)
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Was it true, Mr. Bell, that this was just some assignment?
MS. FISK: Objection Your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. WILLIAMS: She makes the representation, Your Honor, that this is
--
MS. FISK: No, I don't --
MR. WILLIAMS: This is just an assignment.
THE COURT: It is just an assignment to him.
MR. WILLIAMS: That is not true.
THE COURT: He has a personal interest in this case?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
THE COURT: Do you have a particular personal interest on this case?
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Page 37.
Michael Bell - Direct
On this particular assignment? With this assignment, yes.
THE COURT: What is your personal interest?
MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Newman constantly writes articles and has them
published.
MS. FISK: You see, this is not his personal interest.
MR. WILLIAMS: It is his personal interest because it has to do with his
boss, his office.
THE COURT: Well, his boss.
MR. WILLIAMS: I would like him to complete his answer. Ms. Fisk may not
like it.
THE COURT: I don't care whether she likes it or not, I am interested
only in what he did.
MR. WILLIAMS: His interest --
THE COURT: No, he has no interest here. Come on.
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, you asked the question, he is entitled to
answer it.
THE COURT: He did answer it. He is telling me somebody else has an
interest.
MR. WILLIAMS: He was interrupted.
Page 38.
Michael Bell - Direct
THE COURT: What he did.
You put it in the computer, did you, and you put it in
there as soon as you could, and the computer spits back whatever it has,
that's all you do?
THE WITNESS: In a very simplistic manner, yes, but it does go beyond
that, though.
THE COURT: You could have had an operator here in Philadelphia do the
very same thing.
MR. WILLIAMS: It goes beyond that, sir.
THE COURT: It goes beyond that?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR. WILLIAMS: That's what he just said.
THE COURT: Counselor, I am sustaining the objection. Come on, now.
MR. WILLIAMS: To your own question.
THE COURT: To my own question because he can't, he has no personal
interest.
MR. WILLIAMS: You asked him, he was going to explain.
THE COURT: No, he is going to explain his boss's personal interest. I
don't care
Page 39.
Michael Bell - Direct
whether his boss has a personal interest.
MR. WILLIAMS: Let me ask the question, if it is not responsive then
strike it.
THE COURT: Counselor, I don't make a finding of fact based on what he
believes in the case. It is what he did.
MR. WILLIAMS: You asked the question, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I asked the question, I wanted to see if he
would tell me the truth. He really personally has no interest in it.
MR. WILLIAMS: You didn't allow him to answer. I suspect the Court is
afraid of the answer.
THE COURT: No, I am not afraid of any answer.
MR. WILLIAMS: Let's hear it.
THE COURT: Counselor.
MR. WILLIAMS: Are you afraid of the answer?
THE COURT: For what purpose?
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, how do you know the purpose unless you hear the
answer. You ask the question.
Page 40.
Michael Bell - Direct
THE COURT: Counselor, all I am interested in is what work
he did on the subject. I am not going to go into any philosophical
viewpoint of anybody, a witness such as him.
MR. WILLIAMS: I am asking the witness to answer Your
Honor's question and I ask the Court not to be afraid of the answer.
THE COURT: Counselor, we don't have a jury here.
MR. WILLIAMS: Exactly, so why not hear the answer: There is no jury to
taint?
THE COURT: Counselor, I made a ruling, you can take it up on appeal,
okay.
MR. WILLIAMS: I just regret that the Court --
THE COURT: I am not afraid of any answer.
MR. WILLIAMS: Let's hear it.
THE COURT: Counselor, if you keep arguing with me you're
going to go out of the case. I am not going to stand here and argue with
you all day. I made a ruling, that's it. You have an automatic exception
to any ruling that I make. I don't have to explain it to you
Page 41.
Michael Bell - Direct
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, with that threat and the threatening gesture I have
concluded my questioning.
MR. BURNS: Let the record show there was no threatening
gesture. Let the record show that Counsel has been shouting at the Court
for the past 10 minutes.
THE COURT: You were shouting.
MR. WILLIAMS: I had to make myself heard because Your Honor --
THE COURT: All right, you had to make yourself heard. I heard you and I
have ruled on it.
Okay, let's cross-examine. Let's get finished here. We will be here for
a year trying this case.
MR. WILLIAMS: Maybe Miss Fisk will ask what interest he has, or perhaps
she is afraid also.
MS. FISK: I promise Counsel that I will ask relevant
questions, as opposed to questions that deal with nothing about the truth
of the matter involving this case, which is all that Counsel has been
interested in propagated
Page 42.
Michael Bell - Cross
throughout these proceedings.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, if history is any guide, I don't think the
questions will be all that relevant.
MS. FISK: Just watch.
- - - - -
CROSS-EXAMINATION
- - - - -
BY MS. FISK:
Q. Mr. Bell, are you from Philadelphia, sir?
A. No, I am not.
Q. You are from San Diego?
A. Correct.
Q. And you have been a private investigator you have told us in San
Diego since 1993?
A. Correct.
Q. What is your training as a private investigator, Mr. Bell?
A. I did have some schooling in criminal justice.
Q. And when you say some schooling, you mean what, please?
A. Basically, it is just up to a level of an Associates degree.
Q. So you went to an Associates, a junior college?
Page 43.
Michael Bell - Cross
A. Correct.
Q. Received an Associates degree in criminal justice?
A. No, I did not receive, I am like six units shy and haven't gone back
to school.
Q. So you had about 18 months or so?
A. Yes.
Q. Of college?
A. Yes.
Q. About a year and a half worth of credits in criminal justice?
A. Yes.
Q. That was obtained or received, or concluded when?
A. '92.
Q. All right. In June '92? In September '92?
A. We're probably June of '92. As far as the college. I
have gone on to professional training with the California Institute of
Professional Investigators. And I have certified training with them.
Q. Is that training you gained after beginning work in October of
1993?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. From the time you completed your college
Page 44.
Michael Bell - Cross
credits in '92 until you began about a year and a half later, what
employment did you have, sir?
A. I worked while going to school, I was employed in a
grocery store in a management position. I left that to pursue a career as
an investigator and worked for a separate company prior to working for
Tactical Investigative Services.
Q. And what kind of work did you do for that company?
A. The same: Criminal and civil litigation.
Q. And when did you start working for that company, sir?
A. In 1993. I was only there for a short period of time.
The owner shortly was involved in four or five very large cases and needed
some back-up. Once those cases were concluded, she scaled down her
business in order to go to law school.
Q. And did you start working for that person in October 1993?
A. Yes.
Q. From the time you finished college in, or stopped
attending college in June 1992, until the time you started working for
this woman in October '93, during that period what did you do, sir?
A. From -- wait. Repeat that one.
Page 45.
Michael Bell - Cross
Q. You said that while you were in college you worked in a grocery
store in a management position?
A. Correct. I continued that after.
Q. All right. So after you finished attending --
A. Yes, I went straight from the grocery business into
investigations.
Q. Thank you. Okay. Then after that you worked for this woman for some
months?
A. Yes, it's approximately three-and-a-half, four months.
Q. You began then to work for Tactical Investigative Services?
A. There was a period roughly two months where I was
employed by both. The first employer was my primary employer but when she
did not have work I would pick up work with Tactical.
Q. Now, during this period of time you said you also received
investigative training?
A. Correct.
Q. What kind of computer training did you receive, sir?
A. From a computer aspect, training from the computer
companies themselves. When we would contract with the service they would
have somebody come down and train us on how to use the equipment.
Page 46.
Michael Bell - Cross
What would facilitate a search and what would be unnecessary searches
for any given search required.
Q. Now, what particular knowledge or expertise did you have with regard
to the Philadelphia area?
A. Excuse me, I...
Q. What particular knowledge or expertise did you have regarding the
Philadelphia area?
MR. WILLIAMS: I am going to object to that as vague and
ambiguous. When you say what particular knowledge about the Philadelphia
area, do you mean about the Philadelphia Eagles? I don't know. Could we be
a little more precise?
THE COURT: Could you rephrase your question.
MS. FISK: Certainly.
BY MS. FISK:
Q. What knowledge did you have regarding the criminal justice system in
Philadelphia?
MR. WILLIAMS: Again vague and ambiguous.
THE COURT: That is not ambiguous.
MR. WILLIAMS: How calender calls are made here?
THE COURT: Whether he has any
Page 47.
Michael Bell - Cross
knowledge or not. He could answer that question. It is a simple
question. If he has none he has none.
THE WITNESS: As far as particulars to the criminal justice system in
Philadelphia and Pennsylvania, none.
BY MS. FISK:
Q. Now, you have advised us that your office began to
work on this account you said late in June or July 1995; is that
right?
A. Yes.
Q. Other than yourself and Mr, Newman, who else was
employed at Tactical Investigative Services? And I don't mean their names,
I mean what other persons?
A. We have a staff of approximately six, it varies at times.
Q. Are those persons other support staff, clerical in nature?
A. Six, you know, we have probably about five investigators and one
office manager.
Q. All right. Now, from June or July 1995 until the time
that the subject you were looking for was located, was your time being
billed on an hourly basis?
A. I don't know, I don't get into billing.
Page 48.
Michael Bell - Cross
Q. So you keep track of your time so that your boss can
then appropriately charge the person who has hired him or assigned him to
do a job?
A. In general, with other cases, yes.
Q. In this case you did not?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Yes you did what?
A. In this case I've, I got paid on the time that -- thank you -- that
I spend working on a case.
Q. All right.
A. If I spend 30 minutes working on a case I only get paid 30 minutes
worth of time for that day.
Q. I see. You are not a salaried employed, then?
A. No.
Q. You are contracted out?
A. Well, I am an employee.
Q. But you're paid only for the specific investigations
you do work on, you are not given a flat salary every week?
A. No.
Q. All right, in this case was that in fact the case: Were you paid for
the work you did on this case?
A. Yes.
Q. In order to be properly compensated, did you
Page 49.
Michael Bell - Cross
have to keep track of the time and hours you put in on this case?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. From the period of time -- and I thought --
I apologize if you misunderstood -- I thought that was my question -- from
the period of time July '95 until the subject was located, did you in fact
record the time that you spent in this case?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was that time, please?
A. I have no idea. As far as you mean a total time from
June until today? I have no idea how much time I spent on it.
Q. Well, did you submit a bill for that time?
MR. WILLIAMS: I am going to object: It is beyond the
scope of this case. Because the focus is exclusively on Veronica --
THE COURT: She is asking about this case.
MR. WILLIAMS: On Veronica Jones.
THE COURT: Yes, this case.
BY MS. FISK:
Q. I apologize if my question was misunderstood. I am
talking about the time that you have just testified about, the efforts
that you have told us
Page 50.
Michael Bell - Cross
about. Did you understand me to mean that?
A. No.
Q. All right, well, let me restate. With regard to the
efforts that you have just testified about on direct examination, did you
present a bill for that time?
A. I wouldn't call it a bill, I got a time sheet.
Q. Okay. Did you present a time sheet for that time?
A. Yes.
Q. And how many hours did that time sheet reflect?
A. I have no idea. I turn in my time sheet every two
weeks. So from June of '95 until today I couldn't even tell you how many
two-week periods there are.
Q. You did tell us that before you came here today you had an
opportunity to review your file?
A. Hmm-hmm.
Q. So that you could testify in a cogent manner; is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Does your file contain copies of those time sheets?
A. No.
Page 51.
Michael Bell - Cross
Q. You send your only copy to your office, to your boss
or your client, you retain no copy for yourself to make sure that you are
reimbursed properly?
A. I do but I keep -- the time sheet has, besides it
could have anywhere up to 15 different cases that I worked on in any given
day.
Q. And what hourly rate were you paid for these services?
A. That I get paid?
Q. You said that you're compensated for the time you put in for each
case, right?
A. Correct.
Q. And you tell --
A. I get paid --
Q. So you tell somebody how much time you spend and then you're paid
for that time?
A. Correct.
Q. Are you paid on an hourly basis?
A. Yes.
Q. At what hourly rate?
A. At $8 an hour.
Q. Is that the rate that you were paid for this investigation?
A. Yes.
Page 52.
Michael Bell - Cross
Q. Now, is that in addition to any hourly rate that Mr. Newman billed,
if you know?
A. I have no idea what Mr. Newman bills.
Q. Okay. Now, what you told us is that your search began
on July 5th for Veronica Jones and that what you received was a name
Veronica Jones, a date of birth, and a possible Social Security
number?
A. Correct.
Q. From whom did you receive that information?
A. The information was forwarded to their office into Tactical from Mr.
Weinglass or Counsel.
Q. Now, did you ever have an opportunity to determine the source of
that information from Mr. Weinglass?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever have an opportunity to find out whether
or not there was a person -- well, let me get back. Did you ever have an
opportunity to determine whether or not this was a person who had been a
witness to a particular event?
A. We were told verbally that she was a witness in a capital case.
Q. Did you request a copy of the notes of testimony of that witness who
you were being asked to locate?
Page 53.
Michael Bell - Cross
A. Initially, no.
Q. Would that have been a logical request in an effort to
identify or see whether that person in their testimony gave any
information as to their whereabouts?
A. Eventually we did request a copy and got that.
Initially we did not, we relied on the fact that Counsel had an
investigator here and, who does the local work and would exhaust the local
aspect of the case. Our involvement in the case was just in a technical
sense, computer searches.
Q. Were you ever advised that the person -- I'm sorry --
when you were first retained on July 5th, 1995, were you advised that the
person that you were seeking had been in custody in the Philadelphia
prison system during the time of her testimony in 1982?
A. No.
Q. Were you ever told that?
A. Not that I know, I'm not sure.
Q. Were you ever advised or -- I'm sorry -- were you
advised when you were first retained on July 5th, or when you first began
the search on July 5th, 1995, that the witness who you were looking for
had an identifiable Philadelphia Police identification
Page 54.
Michael Bell - Cross
number?
A. No, initially, no.
Q. I take it, then, you became aware of that at some point?
A. When in the search or in the time span that we spent
searching for the subject in this case, Veronica Jones, it was identified
and at that point I think that was when we requested the criminal
records.
Q. We will get to that in a moment. You told us that the
first thing that you did was to use the Social Security number to check
the credit headers?
A. Right.
Q. To get the addresses of any persons claiming or using that Social
Security number?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, do you also use the name? You just put a Social Security number
in?
A. It depends on the type of search that you're doing. If
it's just the Social Security number we can use that. Sometimes you have
to develop the Social Security number and it goes through this, it's also
called a credit header, where I can use the name and the subject's
address, in simplistic terms, turn it around, get the Social, feed it back
in and let it go.
Page 55.
Michael Bell - Cross
Q. Incidentally, Mr. Bell, did you inquire of Mr.
Weinglass or whoever provided the information of the name, date of birth
and possible Social Security number as to the manner in which that Social
Security number and birth date had been developed?
A. No.
Q. Would it make sense to you that the search that you
were conducting would start off from accurate information as opposed to
inaccurate information?
A. You always like to hope so.
Q. In addition to hope, as an investigator, were you
trained at any time to investigate the source of the information you were
being provided to check to see whether, if you could, that was
accurate?
A. Are you saying did we go back and check where the information came
from?
Q. I'm asking if you even asked where the information came from?
A. No.
Q. So you simply received the name, a date of birth and Social Security
number without questioning its source?
A. Correct.
Page 56.
Michael Bell - Cross
Q. And as I understand it, utilizing that Social Security number in a
credit header database --
A. Hmm-hmm.
Q. -- which is apparently a public database?
A. Hmm-hmm.
Q. Is that a yes?
A. Yes.
Q. Through what database service?
A. There is a multitude of services that all use the same thing.
Q. And which one did you use?
A. I think they're called Tracers. That's all I know about them. I
think it's Tracers Business Bureau or --
Q. And do I understand that utilizing that Social
Security number and that name and that date of birth you found one person
named Veronica Jones in New Haven, Connecticut?
A. Hmm-hmm.
Q. Is that a yes? I'm sorry, you have to say yes or no.
A. Yes, I'm sorry.
Q. That's all right. Does that mean that there was no other person
named Veronica Jones in the United States?
Page 57.
Michael Bell - Cross
A. No.
Q. Who appeared in that computer database?
A. No, it does not mean that. It means that this
particular Veronica Jones that was located in New Haven utilized the
Social Security number given to us initially.
Q. All right. Now, you told us a moment ago that there
was a local investigator, so far as you knew, located in Philadelphia
doing local things?
A. Yes.
Q. Nevertheless, when the name Veronica Jones in New
Haven came up it was Mr. Newman who flew across the country to see whether
that was the person you were seeking; is that accurate?
A. He was coming to the East Coast for personal business anyway. And in
doing so he stopped, yes.
Q. And when was it, sir, precisely when the name Veronica
Jones in New Haven, Connecticut was developed by you?
A. At roughly the same time frame of July 5th.
Q. Okay. So that was almost immediate?
A. Yes. I mean the search does come back, usually there's, it could
take up to an hour to develop the information.
Q. All right. And you told us that that name was
Page 58.
Michael Bell - Cross
developed on July 5th and Mr. Newman flew to New Haven in
late July to determine whether or not that was the person you were
seeking; is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, you then told us -- and if I am chronologically
incorrect please correct me -- that thereafter further information came in
of a new name and two new dates of birth; is that accurate?
A. Hmm-hmm.
Q. Plain --
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Would I be correct, then, that that would be August of '95, is
that your thereafter?
A. I'm not, I don't know -- excuse me -- I don't know when they came
in.
Q. Well, how did it come in, the FAX, mail, carrier pigeon, how?
A. I was told verbally.
Q. All right.
A. Here's another name and a couple dates of birth.
Q. And that information is given to you by Mr. Newman?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you know from whom Mr. Newman received
Page 59.
Michael Bell - Cross
that information?
A. No.
Q. You have no clue as to where it came from?
A. No.
Q. Do you have any information as to the source of that new
information?
A. No.
Q. And did you make any inquiries into the source of it?
A. No.
Q. Did you ask Mr. Newman?
A. No.
Q. And you said that with that new information, do I take
it that you were assigned by Mr. Newman to now go to the computer and use
whatever databases were available to you to see what information you could
generate with these names and these dates of birth?
A. Hmm-hmm.
Q. Is that a yes?
A. Yes.
Q. And you told us that you then ran the surname and date of birth;
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Correct?
Page 60.
Michael Bell - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. What database did you use to do that, sir?
A. Various, there's three or four.
Q. Well, did you run them on all four databases or did you run it on
one?
A. This particular I think we ran on one; the name of it I'm not aware
of.
Q. You are not aware of?
A. It's... I could tell you the abbreviation is DNIS, I don't know what
that stands for.
Q. Well, are these the databases that you had received
particular technical training in, the training that you were talking about
earlier?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And it's called DNIS?
A. That's what I have it listed as, yes.
Q. And is this something that is purchased by the investigative
agency?
A. Yes.
Q. And in what manner is this database purchased?
A. I don't, I don't understand in what manner. You mean financially?
Yes, a check is --
Q. Well --
A. There is a monthly service to use it.
Q. My question is is it on a CD, do you keep it
Page 61.
Michael Bell - Cross
in your hard drive, are you using a telephone modem to access this
database?
A. Oh, okay. Well, with all of the searches utilized
there was some that was on a CD-ROM, some that was searched via a modem
and the computer.
Q. Now, sir, this search in which you ran the surnames, when did that
take place?
A. I don't know the date.
Q. Well, again, was that in the file that you reviewed
yesterday so you could chronologically give us an accurate view of what it
was that you did?
A. The results of the search were on the, on the results the date was
unlisted.
Q. And you have no memory of when you ran this, you don't
know if it was August, September, October, November of 1995?
A. No.
Q. No clue at all?
A. No.
Q. Do you have any information or any recollection as to
when that information even came in, after the New Haven lead was
developed?
A. There was a span of two or three weeks, I think.
Q. Now, you told us that as a result of running
Page 62.
Michael Bell - Cross
the name Veronica with dates of birth and coming up with
80,000 people across the United States, you then, or someone then picked
the Eastern seaboard and identified 14 states?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you do that?
A. Umm, myself and Mr. Newman sat down together and said,
you know, based on prostitution and what we know of it, this is areas that
we could immediately eliminate, you know, Montana or Wyoming, as somewhere
that at least in our minds we don't consider to be hotbeds of
prostitution.
Q. They don't have prostitutes in California?
A. Yes.
Q. They have prostitutes in Detroit?
A. Yes.
Q. How about Chicago?
A. Yes.
Q. Were those considered in your search?
A. Yes.
Q. I thought you said that you picked the Eastern
seaboard and limited it to 14 states? Last I looked, sir, California is
not near the Eastern seaboard; correct?
MR. WILLIAMS: That is not his
Page 63.
Michael Bell - Cross
testimony, and she is misstating it.
MS. FISK: It certainly was his testimony, Your Honor.
MR. WILLIAMS: No, it was not.
BY MS. FISK:
Q. Did you tell us that you picked the Eastern seaboard?
A. I think I stated Eastern seaboard plus other states that lured
prostitution.
Q. And you had been told that the person you were looking for had been
a prostitute?
A. Yes.
Q. What else were you told?
A. In essence that was it, a prostitute by the name of
Veronica Jones and this is a possibility of a date of birth.
Q. Were you ever told that in 1982, that this woman named
Veronica Jones testified in a trial that her mother lived in Camden, New
Jersey, were you told that in July 1995 when you were hired?
A. No.
Q. Do you think that if you were given that information
which came directly from the trial transcript that it would have enabled
you to narrow your search considerably, at least initially?
Page 64.
Michael Bell - Cross
A. Our involvement was just on the computers. Again, they
had an investigator local that would do the local, and I would consider
Camden to be in the local area.
Q. I'm sorry, Mister --
MR. WEINGLASS: Objection, Your Honor: The witness is not
being allowed to complete his answer. Counsel doesn't like the answer so
she cuts him off. He should be given the common courtesy.
MS. FISK: It has nothing to do with liking the answer. The answer is
not responsive.
THE COURT: If he is not answering your question move to strike it, I
will strike it. Ask the question again --
-- and please answer the question.
MS. FISK: I apologize, Mr. Bell, please finish your answer.
THE WITNESS: I thought I did.
MS. FISK: I believe you did too.
MR. WEINGLASS: He was cut off again in explaining why he didn't finish
the answer. He was cut off now.
THE COURT: You are not a witness. He
Page 65.
Michael Bell - Cross
is the witness here. And you're not the attorney involved, he is the
attorney behind you. He hasn't objected.
So now come on. Ask the question again.
Please answer the question she asks you.
Ask the question.
BY MS. FISK:
Q. Mr. Bell, my question of you was whether or not you
had been told that the witness had said that her mother was in Camden. You
said no because you were only involved with the computer and there were
local investigators as far as you knew doing local work, right?
A. Yes, and --
Q. Yes?
A. In that we would go on the assumption that they would
have checked the immediate areas to include Camden. And that our
involvement again was just on the computers to proceed any further.
Q. Yet your involvement, sir, and as Counsel pointed out
in direct examination, also requires you to exercise judgment, that is to
determine, for example, when you ran the surname and dates of birth
Page 66.
Michael Bell - Cross
and came up with 80,000 names, to utilize the information
that you and Mr. Newman had as investigators to identify the states where
you should focus your inquiry; is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And that was outside the computer, wasn't it? It was
using investigatively gathered information to narrow an otherwise enormous
computer search; am I correct, sir?
A. Correct.
Q. So you were using information --
MR. WEINGLASS: Objection, Your Honor: He was cut off again.
THE COURT: He answered: He said correct.
MR. WEINGLASS: He was about to say something else.
THE COURT: How do you know what he was about to say?
MR. WEINGLASS: Because I am here and I have ears.
THE COURT: I have ears too. He says correct and that means correct.
MR. WEINGLASS: No, he started to say something else.
Page 67.
Michael Bell - Cross
THE COURT: You started to say something else?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: What are you going to say?
THE WITNESS: Once the 14 other states were developed, that information
was just forwarded back and --
THE COURT: Then you didn't do anything?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE COURT: Well, say it. If you didn't do anything, say you didn't do
anything.
BY MS. FISK:
Q. When you say the 14 states were developed, did you and
Mr. Newman then send to the persons who had hired you the 14 states that
the two of you decided should be looked at?
A. Correct. Yes.
Q. Are you done?
A. Yeah.
Q. And the 14 states that you and Mr. Newman picked were
based on yours and Mr. Newman's knowledge as to the primary states where
prostitutes worked; is that correct?
A. To our knowledge, you know, yes.
Page 68.
Michael Bell - Cross
Q. Do you have any particular training in prostitution
that you and Mr. Newman in San Diego needed to identify those 14 states
for the defense?
A. Myself, no. I cannot attest to Mr. Newman's training.
Q. Surely you can not. So you then suggested to defense,
or to those who had hired you, that 80,000 people were across the United
States with the first name of Veronica and the date of birth that you had.
And it was your recommendation to them, I presume --
A. Hmm-hmm.
Q. --- that they focus on, of those 80,000, the thousands that were in
these 14 states?
A. Correct.
Q. And you made Counsel aware, those that had hired you
aware that those recommendations were based on the fact that those are the
states where you are most likely to find a woman who used to be a
prostitute?
A. Yes.
Q. That is correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you at that point ask for any additional
background information regarding the person you were seeking? And I am not
talking about new names, new
Page 69.
Michael Bell - Cross
dates of birth, but information that was known to those who were asking
you to find her about the person?
A. It's my understanding that the information that was forwarded to us
was all the information known.
Q. And the information forwarded to you was a name, date of birth and a
Social Security number?
A. Yes.
Q. You were never told by Counsel the trial transcript showed she had a
mother living in Camden?
A. No.
Q. You were never told that because --
A. Not --
Q. I'm sorry, sir, I thought I started my next question. Go ahead.
A. Not initially.
Q. Not initially. When were you told that?
A. I don't know, it was further on, once we already started the
search.
Q. When? Your search started July '95 and ended in April '96?
A. Yeah.
Q. According to the testimony we heard yesterday. Can you pinpoint when
within there that you were told
Page 70.
Michael Bell - Cross
that she had a mother who lived in Camden?
A. No, I cannot.
Q. Was it towards the beginning, towards the end, or have you no idea
at all?
A. I have no idea when we learned of that information.
Q. And you were simply at the mercy of those persons
providing you and Mr. Newman that information as to when they chose to
give it to you?
MR. WILLIAMS: Objection to the form of the question.
THE COURT: What's wrong with the question?
MR. WILLIAMS: He is not at the mercy of anyone.
THE COURT: Well. Yes, he is to a certain extent. He can
only put into the computer whatever information he receives. If you don't
give him the proper information, he's never going to get the proper
answer.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, then, I take it the District Attorney
is also at the mercy of the law enforcement personnel that provide them
information. Would that be fair to say?
THE COURT: I am talking about this
Page 71.
Michael Bell - Cross
issue now. I am not talking about law enforcement or anything else.
MR. WILLIAMS: I object to the phrase at your mercy. But with that
objection --
THE COURT: Well, cut out the at your mercy.
BY MS. FISK:
MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you.
MS. FISK: I will restate the question.
Q. You were not asking for any additional information,
you were assuming that the information being provided to you was all the
information that those who were searching for her had; is that
correct?
A. I personally did not request any further information as far as any
--
Q. As an investigator, is it your training not to ask questions when
you are searching for someone?
A. No.
Q. Your training in fact is to ask questions?
A. Correct.
Q. Would that be accurate? But you did not do that in this case?
A. No.
Page 72.
Michael Bell - Cross
Q. Now, you told us that at some point, and this is after
you were provided the 80,000 names in the United States, you received
information regarding a Rhonda Harris, or that another name was Rhonda
Harris?
A. Correct.
Q. Is that accurate?
A. I think the Rhonda Harris was, Rhonda was involved in the 80,000
also.
Q. I'm sorry.
A. I think the name Rhonda was involved in the 80,000 search as
well.
Q. Oh.
A. It was just that a Rhonda, known to have an address was located or
was forwarded to us.
Q. So a name you received from again those persons that
had hired you to locate the subject, a person named Rhonda Harris and an
address?
A. Hmm-hmm.
Q. Is that a yes?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know, first of all, who sent that information to you and to
Mr. Newman?
A. I don't know.
Q. Was it those persons who had hired you to
Page 73.
Michael Bell - Cross
locate this subject?
A. I would assume so, I do not know.
Q. And who was it who hired you to locate the subject?
A. I wasn't privileged to the initial conversations between anyone
involved in this case.
Q. Well, to whom did you submit your time sheets for payment?
A. Mr. Newman.
Q. I thought you told us you were paid directly by the person for whom
you were doing the work?
A. No.
MR. WILLIAMS: Objection.
BY MS. FISK:
Q. When the name Rhonda Harris and an address came in to
your agency, and you were asked to make further checks based on that, did
you ask where that information came from?
A. No.
Q. Did you ask who had developed that information?
A. No.
Q. Did you ask whether the persons providing that
information had any other information that they could provide to you now
rather than later?
Page 74.
Michael Bell - Cross
A. No.
Q. Did you ask whether there were records within the
jurisdictions that were being searched that could be subpoenaed in an
attempt to obtain additional information?
A. No.
Q. Was it your belief, since you were able to figure out
where prostitutes worked in various cities in the United States, that
persons who worked as prostitutes also receive public assistance so that
public assistance records could be checked?
A. I fail to follow you here. Are you asking did we
request to have public records researched, or public assistance records
researched?
Q. Okay, did you?
A. No.
Q. When was it that you received the information regarding Rhonda
Harris on Hatfield Street?
A. I don't know.
Q. You have no idea at all? And what database did you then use to check
that name?
A. As far as initially we tried to develop a Social
Security number using the name Rhonda Harris and that Hatfield address,
which was fruitless. Once we got that information then we tried a
separate
Page 75.
Michael Bell - Cross
surname search and a separate database for Rhonda Harris.
Q. Through what database do you put in someone's name and then obtain
their Social Security number?
A. That's also through the credit header.
Q. Through the...?
A. Credit header search.
Q. And that is something anybody can do?
A. Yes, as far as my knowledge is, yes.
Q. Is that by subscription or can anyone go to the public
library and put in my name and come up with my Social Security number?
A. Subscription.
Q. Now, you said at some later time you received two more
Social Security numbers and ran those and came up with three addresses
under each Social Security number?
A. Correct.
Q. When did you receive that information?
A. Again, as far as dates are concerned, I can't attest
to any dates that we did any of the searches other than the first one.
Q. Were you asked to bring with you from San Diego any of
these records so that you could cogently answer questions regarding the
searches you made?
Page 76.
Michael Bell - Cross
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, I am going to object to that. He has been
cogently answering me.
MS. FISK: He hasn't been able to provide me with a single date.
MR. WILLIAMS: That doesn't mean it is not cogent.
MS. FISK: It is just vague.
THE COURT: It is vague. It is not precise, that's for sure.
Go ahead.
BY MS. FISK:
Q. Were you, sir?
A. What?
Q. Asked to bring with you records so that you would be
able to precisely testify to what you did and when you did it?
A. No.
Q. You did in fact make yourself a little script sheet
writing the order in which searches were made; is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. But you did not put on that script sheet the dates on which those
searches were made?
A. A great deal of the searches and the
Page 77.
Michael Bell - Cross
information brought back to us did not have dates on them.
Q. A great deal of the searches?
A. The results of the searches didn't have a date attached as far as
when the search was made.
Q. Ahh. You did the searches, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you kept a time sheet of the work you were doing, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. And the computer programs you were using, I presume,
are programs being used by people who want accurate, timely information
for whatever it is they are searching; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Would I be correct sir, that nine-and-a-half -- out of
ten of these computer companies that you're subscribing with will print on
the sheet of paper that you're obtaining the information the date on which
this information is being provided so that if you look back at it a year
or two later, the subscriber will know as of when that information was
accurate?
A. It depends on when you turn the printer on. Q. You mean you would
do the search but not print
Page 78.
Michael Bell - Cross
up the information?
A. No, the information would be printed. Generally, when
I would log on to a particular service, it would come up today's date and
time. And then it would go through, okay, here is all the new information
that we have available to you and stuff that isn't relevant to the search.
I don't turn the printer on at that point in time to print out because I'd
have a stack of papers that were meaningless to me.
Q. When you would receive the information -- new
information, new Social Security numbers, new names, new addresses that
came from those persons that had hired you to locate this woman -- were
they coming via mail, via FAX, via carrier pigeon, in what fashion were
you receiving the information?
A. Back through the computer, through modem.
Q. You were receiving E-mail messages?
A. No.
Q. I'm sorry, maybe you misunderstand me, sir. When you
received information from those persons who hired you to find this
subject, you would --
A. Oh, okay.
Q. Every time you would receive information from them --
Page 79.
Michael Bell - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. -- in what manner were you receiving that information?
A. I was always told verbally of information.
Q. Did you ever ask to see in writing the information to
make sure that Mr. Newman wasn't dropping a digit when he was giving you a
new Social Security number, for example?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever hear of the game -- what is it -- Whisper Down The
Lane?
A. In kindergarten.
Q. And you are familiar with how when people continue to
repeat a piece of information from one to the next it often times gets
changed?
A. Yeah.
Q. And as an investigator was it important to you to make
sure that you were receiving the most -- accurate information so that you
could properly find a needle in a haystack?
A. When I referred to verbal, there was always handwritten notes: Mike,
here is a name, a new date of birth for Veronica. And he would place it
into my box.
Q. And these were notes that were in Mr. Newman's
Page 80.
Michael Bell - Cross
hand?
A. Yes.
Q. Based on information that he had received from someone else?
A. Correct.
Q. Apparently via verbal --
A. No.
Q. You don't know?
A. I had no idea how he got the information.
Q. And you have no way of knowing if the information in his note was
accurate from the person he received it from?
A. No.
Q. Is that how you generally do business, sir?
A. What do you mean?
Q. In business, don't people write letters to each other,
this is what I'm hiring you to do, this is the information that I am
giving you, and then you write them back or in some way record the nature
of the work you've done for them? Is that generally the practice?
MR. WILLIAMS: I am going to object to generally. Why
doesn't she ask who was doing the communicating with the defense team,
himself or Mr. Newman. If Miss Fisk wants to know the
Page 81.
Michael Bell - Cross
truth.
MS. FISK: Oh, Judge, I want to know the truth, and that's why I stopped
listening to the defense a long time ago.
BY MS. FISK:
Q. Can you answer my question?
MR. WILLIAMS: She could always ask him about this case.
THE COURT: She is asking him about this case. If he doesn't know
anything, then say I don't know anything.
MR. WILLIAMS: That's what I am asking her to ask.
THE COURT: Well, don't con the Court. If you don't
understand the question, don't answer it. And if you don't know an answer
say I don't know the answer.
Let's go, we will be here forever.
BY MS. FISK:
Q. Do you generally communicate with your clients in
writing so that there is a written log of what you've been hired to do and
what it is that you have done for them?
MR. WILLIAMS: There she goes again with the generally.
Page 82.
Michael Bell - Cross
THE COURT: All right, we have FAX machines too. Did they FAX anything
to them?
MR. WILLIAMS: In this particular instance?
THE COURT: Yes, did they.
MR. WILLIAMS: Not generally.
MS. FISK: Your Honor, Counsel on direct examination spent
a great deal of time attempting to establish diligence. If in fact this
search was conducted differently than in the manner of work that agency
generally does, that is relevant to that issue. And for that reason my
question about generally as opposed to this case is a proper question.
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor sustained an objection where I
tried to get this witness to explain why they exercised even more
diligence with this particular assignment than others.
THE COURT: That is hypothetical. Ask the question what
did he do. All he did was put some information into the computer and wait
for it to spit out an answer.
MR. WILLIAMS: That is not true.
MS. FISK: Judge, I will withdraw that question, I will be happy to move
on.
Page 83.
Michael Bell - Cross
BY MS. FISK:
Q. Do I understand, sir, that at some point after you
received the name Veronica Jones, after you received several Social
Security numbers, after you received the name Rhonda Harris, that at some
point you received yet a third name: Louise Tatum?
A. Yes.
Q. When?
A. I think January.
Q. Of 1995?
A. '6.
Q. I'm sorry, January 1996. Would it be fair to say that
everything you have talked about up to now has occurred before January of
1996?
A. As far as questions that you have asked of me?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Yes.
Q. How is it that you are able to recall that you received Louise
Tatum's name in January of 1996?
A. I think that is one of the documents that did have a
date on it. In fact, this was part of my search. At that point Mr. Newman
had just forwarded a FAX to me that he had received from Miss Wolkenstein.
And I think, I believe the date was mid-January for the FAX. And on that
is information
Page 84.
Michael Bell - Cross
pertaining to hey, here is a new name, can we focus on that.
Q. Other than the name Louise Tatum, were you told how that name was
obtained, from what source?
A. No.
Q. Did you inquire?
A. Actually, I believe there was, in the same memo that
was faxed there was a note of at that point in time I think it was
developed in testimony. I do not know which testimony it was but an
attorney referred to her as Louise Tatum.
Q. Was this the first time that you learned that the
person that you were seeking had in fact given testimony in the past?
A. No.
Q. You had known previously that the subject you were searching for had
given testimony in the past?
A. Yes.
Q. Had you ever asked to see that testimony?
A. No.
Q. Now, you also said that at some point -- and I'm
following the order in which you testified -- you received additional
information by way of handwritten notes?
A. Correct.
Page 85.
Michael Bell - Cross
Q. From whom?
A. I do not know. Or -- excuse me -- as far as who wrote the notes or
who did we receive the notes from?
Q. Well, let me start with where did you get the handwritten notes?
A. They were forwarded to us, to Tactical, by Counsel for Mr.
Jamal.
Q. Okay. And these handwritten notes were what, scraps of paper with
names and date of birth?
A. In essence, yes, there was just, you know, several
8-by-10 sheets with notes pertaining to each particular case that this
individual had viewed.
Q. That what individual had viewed?
A. Whoever was writing the handwritten notes.
Q. And what was your impression as to what it was they
had viewed which enabled them to make these handwritten notes?
A. It appeared to be criminal records: It had case
numbers and then some notes and then a line and then another case
number.
Q. And what kind of criminal records, do you know, had that person
viewed?
A. I do not know.
Q. In addition to the various databases that you
Page 86.
Michael Bell - Cross
have testified using, were you familiar with the National Crime
Information Computer?
A. I think every investigator knows of NCIC.
Q. Do you have access to that?
A. No.
Q. Are you familiar with the FBI's database listing
persons, I don't know what it's called but the fact that the FBI has
one?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have access to that?
A. No; I'm not government related.
Q. Can that be accessed by way of subpoena or Court order?
A. I have no knowledge of that, I don't know.
Q. Were you familiar with the fact that the Philadelphia
Court of Common Pleas has a database which is available to criminal
defense attorneys to search?
A. No.
Q. When you were made aware of the fact that there were
criminal histories, do you know whether or not any person had checked the
Philadelphia Court of Common Pleas database to identify names and
addresses for the person who was being searched?
A. It was requested and I believe that's how we
Page 87.
Michael Bell - Cross
got the handwritten notes.
Q. Did those handwritten notes contain the outcomes of criminal cases
of the persons whose files were checked?
A. I believe so.
Q. Did those outcomes -- I apologize -- did you have something more to
say?
A. No.
Q. Did those outcomes include, for example, sentences of
incarceration?
A. I believe they did.
Q. Did those outcomes include probationary sentences?
A. I believe so.
Q. Did you make an effort to check the records of those
facilities, that is the prisons or the Department of Probation, regarding
those persons' sentences to obtain additional information?
A. No.
Q. Did you make that request that that be done?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any reason to believe that it was being done?
A. No. If I could further on that?
Q. Go right ahead.
Page 88.
Michael Bell - Cross
A. The reason that it was not requested is the cases that
were forwarded back to us were dated back to '88, '82, '85, generally the
mid eighties. And I believe all of the impositions of sentences, whether
incarceration or probation, was for a short period which would have
expired by the time we would have had to make the request.
Q. Oh, I understand that, but if, for example, a person
in 1988 is placed on probation for two years, would you agree with me that
that probation department would have an accurate address up to 1990,
because that's when the person was still on probation?
A. I would assume so.
Q. And would that provide some value to you as a person attempting to
locate that subject?
A. Yes.
Q. Might that probation record, for example, contain the
name of the subject's mother or the subject's children or the subject's
means of employment while they are on probation?
A. It's my understanding that probation records are not
public information. And I have only available to me public
information.
Q. Did you ever request of those persons who had
Page 89.
Michael Bell - Cross
hired you to obtain the assistance of an attorney who could by proper
Court subpoena obtain that information?
A. No.
Q. Did you as an investigator suggest to any person that
that information could be available and it could be sought by them?
A. Myself, no.
Q. When was it that you took that stack of paper home and laid it
across your living room?
A. I think March of this year.
Q. And do I understand that despite all the enormous
computer-generated searches that you had conducted, it required you to
physically move pieces of paper around your living room for you to develop
the stacks that you developed and then send the lists out; would that be
correct?
A. No.
Q. Didn't you tell us that you had to start picking up pieces of paper
from all across your living room?
A. No.
Q. You didn't tell us that?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you take a stack and start linking things
Page 90.
Michael Bell - Redirect
together by picking up a name here and an address here?
A. I believe my testimony is that I would get an address
from this piece of paper, cross reference it with an address over here.
But as far as taking the papers from each end of the room and putting them
together, no.
Q. Now, are you able to tell us, Mr. Bell, what number of hours you
billed for this work?
A. No.
Q. Were you paid for it?
A. Yes.
Q. You were paid by Mr. Newman for the work?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you still work for Mr. Newman, sir?
A. Yes, I do.
MS. RISK: Thank you, Mr. Bell.
I have no further questions, Your Honor.
- - - - -
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
- - - - -
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Mr. Newman --
A. Bell.
Page 91.
Michael Bell - Redirect
Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Bell. By the way, we don't know each other, do we,
other than just meeting last night?
A. Just met yesterday, yes.
Q. Mr. Bell, is it correct that your office and you in
particular was doing, was basically doing a nationwide search?
A. Yes.
Q. And that's called I think in your parlance broad searches?
A. Yes.
Q. And that's because you wanted to be thorough; is that right?
A. Correct.
Q. Is it because your understanding is that we live in a very mobile
society, that people move around?
MS. FISK: Judge, I object to the leading nature of that question.
THE COURT: You know, you testify very nicely. But let's let him
testify. He is on the witness stand.
MR. WILLIAMS: I will take your suggestion.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Page 92.
Michael Bell - Redirect
Q. Why is it that you decided to do a nationwide search?
A. Because of the history that we knew of Miss Jones here
in Philadelphia and Camden as a prostitute. There is a circuit for
prostitutes in some circles. You know, where they go up and down the
Eastern seaboard or out to California looking for, you know, Hollywood and
the bright lights and big sunshine so they don 't have to stand in the
snow in January.
Q. Let me ask you this. As far as you understand it, who
was making the judgments about when you would focus on a particular
locale?
A. My understanding is that Counsel for Mr. Jamal made
those decisions. I think we just forwarded the broad-based information
that was requested to narrow down to the particular areas.
Q. Did anyone delegate to you that kind of authority?
A. No.
Q. And by the way, during the course of this
investigation when you were doing these computer searches, did you
personally interact with members of the defense team?
A. No.
Page 93.
Michael Bell - Redirect
Q. And to your understanding, who was doing the personal
interaction with the defense team from your office?
A. Mr. Newman.
Q. Okay. And by the way, did you discuss this assignment with Mr.
Newman throughout the course of your investigation?
A. Yes.
Q. And did Mr. Newman ever convey information to you about what he was
learning from the defense team?
A. Yes; that's the basis of where I got all of my information.
Q. And by the way, you're not the lead investigator in this case by any
means?
A. No, no.
Q. You were doing the technical support?
A. Correct.
Q. And so you can't, when you say that you didn't make
suggestions to the defense team, nobody delegated for you to make those
suggestions, right?
A. No.
Q. If anybody was to make suggestions from your office, is it your
understanding it would be Mr. Newman?
A. Correct.
Page 94.
Michael Bell - Redirect
Q. Mr. Newman is far more experienced than you are, I take it?
A. Very much so.
Q. Do you, know the background of Mr. Newman?
MS. FISK: I object, Judge.
MR. WILLIAMS: That was inquired into on direct. She asked that, I think
that question about Mr. Newman's expertise.
THE COURT: I don't remember her asking anything about Mr. Newman.
MR. WILLIAMS: She does.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. But do you know Mr. Newman's expertise?
A. In great detail, no. I know he's been in the business
for 15 years at least, handled numerous cases. In fact, in the three years
that we have worked together we've handled several cases of this
magnitude.
Q. And in your office who would you say would be making
most of the judgments about what kind of searches should be done and what
kind of suggestions should be made to defense Counsel?
A. All suggestions back to Counsel were through Mr. Newman.
(Discussion was held off the record at this time.)
Page 95.
Michael Bell - Redirect
MR. WILLIAMS: Pardon me for one moment.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Is there an investigative association in California?
A. Yes, there is. There are several.
Q. And does Mr. Newman hold an office in --
A. I think I referred to one.
MS. FISK: Objection, Judge. I object.
THE COURT: Okay, now we've had enough about Mr. Newman.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Now, you do know from your own personal knowledge that
Mr. Newman had contact periodically with the defense team?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor, he is testifying to that.
THE COURT: How many times are we going to go over this?
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Mr. Newman, was your office doing any of the leg work?
THE COURT: He is Mr. Newman. Even I
Page 96.
Michael Bell - Redirect
know that and I'm 76.
MR. WILLIAMS: Defense team has been working with Mr. Newman, not Mr.
Bell.
THE COURT: You should know that is Mr. Bell: He doesn't look like
Newman to you.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. You have been dealing with Mr. Newman for quite some time; is that
right?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. And yesterday was the first time we have ever met?
A. Correct.
Q. I apologize. You both have the same first name?
A. Yes.
Q. And I have been referring to you as Mike?
A. It's, we have three Mikes in the office of six so it happens quite
regularly.
Q. And we have been talking in terms of, I call you Mike, you call me
Dan?
A. Yes.
Q. I apologize. Mr. Bell, the leg work was done in this
case by other investigators, not by yourself; is that right?
A. Correct.
Page 97.
Michael Bell - Redirect
Q. But your understanding is that Mr. Newman at certain points did come
out to the East coast?
A. Correct.
Q. In part at least for this particular assignment?
THE COURT: For personal reasons.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. In part for this assignment, right?
THE COURT: Personal reasons.
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor taking an oath? I could question you.
THE COURT: He said that. The witness here said he came here for
personal reasons.
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, that was the first time.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Were there other occasions where Mr. Newman came out to the East
Coast?
MS. FISK: And to that, Judge, I object. The witness was able to testify
about things he knew.
THE COURT: Yes, this is redirect. If you wanted to go
into that baloney you should have done that the first time. You could only
go into what she brought up that you didn't have
Page 98.
Michael Bell - Redirect
a chance to go into.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, I take it Your Honor will then start slicing the
baloney rather thin.
THE COURT: Well, if you think it is baloney.
MR. WILLIAMS: No, Your Honor is the one that, said it is baloney at
this point.
THE COURT: All right, Counselor.
MR. WILLIAMS: It's very distressing to hear a Court --
THE COURT: It's very distressing when I hear you.
MR. WILLIAMS: -- say it is baloney in the midst of a hearing. I think
that's very distressing.
THE COURT: All right, I'm sorry I said baloney, okay. I didn't mean to
imply anything to you.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Now, you said --
THE COURT: Besides, baloney is a good meat. It's not
junk, you know. Everybody eats baloney now and then. Baloney and eggs. You
know, it's good.
Page 99.
Michael Bell - Redirect
All right, let's go.
MR. WILLIAMS: I was just waiting for Your Honor to complete your
discourse on baloney.
THE COURT: Yes, I know. Let's go.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. When you were asked questions about, well, you recall
being asked questions about when certain searches were done, and you
didn't recall?
A. Yes.
Q. I want to show you a document and ask if it refreshes
your recollection to some degree about when certain investigations were
done, or certain searches on your part. I am going to show you a document
and then I will refer you to a particular page just to expedite matters. I
am going to ask you to look at page 6, paragraph 14, or thereabouts.
MR. WILLIAMS: (Handing to Ms. Fisk).
(Pause.)
MS. FISK: (Handing.)
MR. WILLIAMS: Just for the record: The Commonwealth have
spent in excess of ten minutes reviewing this document that was the
subject of discussion yesterday.
MS. FISK: Oh, Judge, I object to
Page 100.
Michael Bell - Redirect
identifying what the document is. I agree that the
witness can use anything Counsel wants to give him to refresh his
recollection. But it's not being marked or entered into evidence or
certified as accurate beyond being used to refresh the recollection of
this witness.
THE COURT: All right, he's got it, let's go.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Mr. Bell, in looking at this affidavit of Mr. Newman --
MS. FISK: Judge, I object. My objection is that it would
be proper only to ask this witness if upon reviewing the document which is
given to him it refreshes his recollection.
THE COURT: Okay.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. And in looking at this affidavit, page 6, paragraph
14, the sentence beginning by mid August, 1995 -- do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Does that help to refresh your recollection about when much of these
searches on the computer were done?
Page 101.
Michael Bell - Redirect
A. I think that relates to the initial search that we had
done plus the surname searches pertaining to both Veronica and Rhonda.
Q. Where you got the 80,000?
A. Yeah.
Q. You mentioned on your, on cross-examination that the
Louise Tatum aspect of your search was in January of 1996?
A. Yes.
Q. So these computer searches that you were talking about
prior to the Louise Tatum aspect occurred in time prior to January of
'96?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were asked about your pay and things of that sort. Sir, were
you motivated to find Miss Jones --
MS. FISK: Objection, Judge.
THE COURT: Well, I'm sure if he gets paid, for it he is going to be
motivated.
MR. WILLIAMS: But there was more motivation than just being paid.
THE COURT: Well, I am not interested in his motivations.
MR. WILLIAMS: We objected yesterday to Miss Fisk --
Page 102.
Michael Bell - Redirect
THE COURT: I know you did.
MR. WILLIAMS: -- asking questions about pay and the offer
of proof was that it's relevant -- Your Honor, I just ask you to hear me
out. That it was relevant because it goes to the motivation of the
witness. I'm simply just inquiring into the motivation of this office.
MS. FISK: I would note, Your Honor, that in
cross-examination one gets far greater latitude than in direct
examination. This is Counsel's witness.
MR. WILLIAMS: I am just following up on questions about motivation.
THE COURT: Don't follow up on her.
MR. WILLIAMS: That is exactly what redirect is.
THE COURT: No, it isn't.
MR. WILLIAMS: It is follow up on cross-examination. If
she inquires into a topic on cross-examination, I am then entitled to then
probe into that particular topic. I can't probe into other topics.
THE COURT: I am sure all of us are motivated by pay.
MR. WILLIAMS: Besides more than just
Page 103.
Michael Bell - Redirect
pay.
THE COURT: They don't pay me, I won't be motivated to come in here.
MR. WILLIAMS: I would hope that you would be motivated by a sense of
justice, but.
THE COURT: I am motivated but they don't pay me a hundred percent.
MR. WILLIAMS: I understand that.
THE COURT: You do. Then you're sympathetic towards my cause?
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Mr. Bell, were you motivated in your office, motivated
to find Veronica Jones in this particular assignment for reasons other
than money?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the additional motivation?
A. Recognition in an article that was to be published with respect to
hard-to-find witnesses or individuals.
Q. And Veronica Jones was going to be a case study in how to find
hard-to-locate witnesses?
A. Very much so.
MR. WILLIAMS: No further questions.
Oh, one moment.
(Discussion was held off the record at this time.)
Page 104.
Michael Bell - Redirect
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Now let me direct your attention to the area of
inquiry regarding Mr. Bell -- Mr. Newman traveling to the East Coast on
that first search. Page 3, paragraph 6 of Mr. Newman's affidavit.
Does that refresh your recollection about the time frame when Mr.
Newman came out to the East Coast?
MS. FISK: Your Honor, I object to that. That would not
refresh his recollection. If this witness has been capable of testifying
with regard to the date of that visit, he does not need his recollection
refreshed. He testified when that occurred.
THE COURT: The important thing is somebody else wrote this.
MR. WILLIAMS: If it refreshes his recollection.
THE COURT: Yes, if he wrote it I would agree with you. He didn't write
it.
MS. FISK: And the difficulty, Judge, is he had no
difficulty remembering. He testified to when Mr. Newman came east. He does
not have any recollection that needs to be
Page 105.
Michael Bell - Redirect
refreshed. He remembered.
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, he prefaced it with maybe.
MS. FISK: Oh.
THE COURT: Oh, well, maybe. That was his testimony, not mine.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Does it refresh your recollection --
THE COURT: I sustained the objection, Counselor.
MR. WILLIAMS: I am asking a new question.
THE COURT: Okay.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Does it refresh your recollection that Mr. Newman came out to the
East Coast in early July of 1995?
A. I knew he came out in July, shortly after I did the search.
Q. And your search was done on July 5th?
A. Correct.
MR. WILLIAMS: No further questions.
- - - - -
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
- - - - -
Page 106.
Michael Bell - Recross
BY MS. FISK:
Q. Was your ability to recollect, apparently
inaccurately, Mr. Newman's visit out east about as accurate as everything
else you have told us about today?
A. I don't understand your question.
Q. Well, you apparently were inaccurate in giving us information about
Mr. Newman's trip east?
A. I feel I was accurate with that. I said previously and this time it
was both in July of 1995.
Q. Okay. Mr. Bell, would you agree with me that in order
to successfully locate a person, the one thing you would like is the most
information available regarding that person, that person's whereabouts,
identity, whatever is known about that person before you start the
search?
A. Generally, yes.
Q. Would you agree with me that it becomes difficult to
find a person only if you refuse to consider that other available
information which exists, and limit yourself only to that person's name
and date of birth and Social Security number; is that when it's difficult
to find someone?
A. If you, if you distinctly and directly refuse to look at other
information, you are making it more
Page 107.
difficult on yourself.
Q. If you do not look at that information?
A. I looked at all information made available to me.
MS. FISK: Thank you, sir.
I have nothing further, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Did I understand you that when you started this
investigation you were going nationwide?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Well, I am not an investigator, but I would
think you would concentrate on the areas that you know she was in, like
Pennsylvania and New Jersey.
THE WITNESS: Well, those were initially.
THE COURT: Yes. You mean you got nothing?
THE WITNESS: No, we searched in those areas. Information
that -- excuse me -- that was developed was fruitless and then --
THE COURT: Why was it fruitless? She lived here. She was
in prison here. Her mother lived in New Jersey. Why didn't you concentrate
on that?
Page 108.
MS. FISK: Well, he wasn't told any of those things, Judge.
THE COURT: Oh, he wasn't told any --
MR. WEINGLASS: Objection. Now we are having testimony from both the
Court and the D.A.
THE COURT: No, I am not testifying, I just want to know
how he operates, why he was going nationwide when he should go right where
the person lives first. And when that's fruitless, then you expand out.
And you don't necessarily go nationwide immediately, you go to the
surrounding states.
MR. WEINGLASS: Your Honor, I believe you inadvertently
cut the witness off when he said at that point, and he was about to say
something --
THE COURT: Okay, shut up. Do you want to say something? Say it.
MR. WEINGLASS: The initial searches were in the immediate area.
THE COURT: I know that, and what did they prove?
THE WITNESS: Information reverted back to our office was that they were
fruitless.
Page 109.
At least the information that we had developed.
THE COURT: Well, did you say to them well give me more information
about her there locally?
THE WITNESS: I had no contact with Counsel.
THE COURT: Well --
THE WITNESS: What was requested I can't attest to.
THE COURT: Well, you are an investigator, did you tell
your boss, hey, get after them, get me information about right there in
Pennsylvania and New Jersey?
THE WITNESS: I probably did, I can't recall it yes or no.
THE COURT: You probably did. And he didn't get it for
you? Oh, he was more interested in this book he was going to write.
Okay.
MR. WEINGLASS: Well, Your Honor.
THE COURT: That's what he said, he said he wanted to write, that was
the motive, they were going to write a book.
MR. WILLIAMS: He was going to write an article about how to find --
Page 110.
THE COURT: I know.
MR. WILLIAMS: How to find difficult-to-locate witnesses.
THE COURT: This wasn't very difficult. No.
MR. WILLIAMS: It was a paradigm instance of that.
THE COURT: Concentrate right where these people live. When somebody
disappears, where do the police go first?
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, he testified about numerous
searches in the Pennsylvania and New Jersey area. That's what he testified
to.
THE COURT: Based on what information you gave him, he put
it in the computer, got something out, gave it to you, and you told him
it's negative.
MR. WILLIAMS: Right.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WILLIAMS: And ultimately it was a positive finding.
THE COURT: Ultimately how did he get it?
MR. WILLIAMS: He testified --
Page 111.
THE COURT: Well, I know. They found her in New Jersey.
MR. WILLIAMS: Right.
THE COURT: Well, why couldn't you find her in New Jersey in the first
place?
MR. WILLIAMS: For the same reason that New Jersey authorities couldn't
find her.
THE COURT: I didn't hear --
MR. WILLIAMS: For the same reason that the New Jersey
authorities couldn't find her to enforce a bench warrant. Presumably they
couldn't find her.
THE COURT: Hey, let me tell you: New Jersey has their own problems. Do
you think they were going to worry about --
MR. WILLIAMS: New Jersey has more officers than we have investigators,
that's for sure.
MS. FISK: I suspect their budget is lower, though, Judge.
MR. WILLIAMS: Their budget is far greater than anything we would have,
first of all.
THE COURT: You had a good budget, you had an investigator right here.
Right here.
Page 112.
MR. WILLIAMS: And we used them.
MS. FISK: Your Honor, I have no further questions of this
witness. I don't know if he is still being questioned or --
THE COURT: Well, I just wanted to know why they go nationwide first
instead of concentrating on --
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: That is inaccurate, Your Honor. That does not reflect
the testimony, not at all.
THE COURT: Okay.
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Another inaccuracy.
THE COURT: Okay, everything I say is inaccurate. Go ahead.
Okay, you can go.
MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Newman -- Bell.
THE COURT: Again, again he doesn't even know his witness' name. Well,
okay. What do you want to do, gentlemen?
MR. WEINGLASS: We have a short witness.
THE COURT: Short witness, okay.
MR. WEINGLASS: Lamont Anderson.
MS. FISK: May I just have a moment,
Page 113.
Your Honor?
(Pause.)
THE COURT: Is he here?
MR. WEINGLASS: He's here.
- - - - -
Lamont Anderson, having been duly sworn,
was examined
and testified as follows:
- - - - -
DIRECT EXAMINATION
- - - - -
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Anderson.
A. Good afternoon.
Q. Mr. Anderson, would you state to the Court what your present
occupation is?
A. Transportation manager with the Southeastern Pennsylvania
Transportation Authority.
Q. And back in 1993, the early part of that year, what was your
occupation and employment?
A. Private detective.
Q. And how long had you been a private detective prior to '93?
A. About five years.
Q. And before that what was your occupation and employment?
Page 114.
Lamont Anderson - Direct
A. Police officer in Philadelphia.
Q. And how long had you been a police officer in Philadelphia?
A. 23 years.
Q. Were you retired prior to becoming a private investigator?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now directing your attention to early 1993, did you
have occasion at that time as a private investigator to become involved in
the investigation of the case that's presently in Court?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you have occasion at that time to be retained as an
investigator?
A. Yes.
Q. And were you at that time an investigator in the City of
Philadelphia?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. With all the experience in investigation you have already
indicated?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And at that time in early 1993, did you know the name Kareem
Shabazz?
A. Yes.
Q. And who was Mr. Shabazz?
Page 115.
Lamont Anderson - Direct
A. He is a private investigator.
Q. And were you told that you were replacing Mr. Shabazz as the
investigator in this case?
A. Well, I don't know if that was the exact terminology but it was
something to that effect, yes.
Q. That he had worked previously as an investigator on the case?
A. Yes.
Q. And he also to your knowledge is an investigator here in
Philadelphia?
A. Yes.
Q. Now with respect to your working on this case, did
there come a time where you were asked to do anything with respect to an
individual named Veronica Jones?
A. Yes.
Q. And what were you asked to do?
A. To try to locate her, her present address, location.
Q. Right. And when was this? Approximately.
A. Early 1993, I don't remember the exact month but I know it was still
cold.
Q. Were you able to locate Veronica Jones?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you use your expertise that you had
Page 116.
Lamont Anderson - Direct
acquired in all the years that you had in investigation?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. WEINGLASS: Thank you. I have nothing further.
MS. FISK: May I inquire, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sure.
MS. FISK: Thank you.
- - - - -
CROSS-EXAMINATION
- - - - -
Q. Hello, Mr. Anderson.
A. Good afternoon.
Q. Oh, God, you're right, it is. In fact, when you
retired from the Police Department after 23 years you retired as a
detective from the Homicide Division, didn't you, sir?
A. That is correct.
Q. And in fact you and I had the opportunity to work together on
homicide cases prior to your retirement?
A. Yes.
Q. And as a result of your years in the Police Department, you had
become aware, I assume, about the
Page 117.
Lamont Anderson - Cross
existence of numerous kinds of documents and databases
maintained in the Philadelphia Court system, the Philadelphia Prison
system, and Philadelphia Police Department; am I correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And when was it, sir, that you were retained in this matter?
A. It was the early part of '93, it was right around the change of the
seasons from winter to spring.
Q. All right, now, when you were retained in 1993, were you working at
that time full time as a private investigator?
A. Part-time.
Q. You also were working as a security person at Jefferson University
Hospital, weren't you, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. At the time that you were retained in 1993,
specifically what was it that you were told and what was it that you were
asked?
MR. WEINGLASS: With respect to Veronica Jones, I assume.
MS. FISK: Absolutely, Judge.
THE COURT: I thought that's all we are talking about here. I hope
that's all we
Page 118.
Lamont Anderson - Cross
are talking about here.
MR. WEINGLASS: Yes, but in fairness to the witness it ought to be
limited.
THE COURT: He knows that is the purpose for which he is here.
THE WITNESS: I was given her name.
BY MS. FISK:
Q. Which name?
A. To the best I recall is Veronica Jones.
Q. By whom?
A. (Indicating) Mr. Weinglass.
Q. What else were you given, sir?
A. I believe an address. And I was told to try to locate
her, that address was no longer valid as far as they knew.
Q. Were you told what the source of that address was?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Were you told who this person was in relation to the case of
Commonwealth versus Jamal?
A. Yes.
Q. And what were you told?
A. I don't recall the exact scenario. But I know it was that she had
been a witness.
Q. All right. You as an experienced Philadelphia
Page 119.
Lamont Anderson - Cross
police officer knew that when a person was a witness, the words they
spoke in Court were written down?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ask to read those words?
A. No.
Q. Were you ever advised that this witness when she had
testified had been a guest of the Commonwealth and in fact was
incarcerated at the time her testimony was offered?
A. I don't recall now if I was told that.
Q. Do you recall whether you ever inquired of Counsel who
hired you whether or not an attempt had been made to determine whether or
not this witness had a Philadelphia Police identification number?
A. I don't recall now if I asked.
Q. Because you as an experienced homicide detective knew
that if you could identify a person through a Police identification
number, you could then utilize an FBI nationwide search no matter what
name or address that person gave because it used fingerprints to identify
that person; is that correct, sir?
A. It could be done, yes.
Q. And did you advise Mr. Weinglass of the existence of that sort of
database and the importance
Page 120.
Lamont Anderson - Cross
of determining a Police identifying number so you could then search for
that person?
A. I don't recall now exactly what, how our conversation took at that
time.
Q. Well, what did you do after you were given a name and an address
that you were told was no longer good?
A. I researched various databases, such as voters
registration, postal change of addresses. Court dockets. Some Social
Security data, motor-vehicle-registration-type data. Some confidential
sources.
Q. What kind of confidential sources?
A. Confidential.
Q. What kind of confidential? I am not asking you to name
a person, I am asking you to name a bureau or an agency which --
A. Information services that would have access to addresses.
Q. For example, Department of Public Welfare?
A. Maybe.
Q. School districts?
A. Utility companies.
Q. And these were databases not generally available to
the public but because of persons that you had met in your 23 years as a
police officer and
Page 121.
Lamont Anderson - Cross
a homicide detective, sources that you had developed; is that
correct?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And I would assume that these, that you developed
similar sources in your years as an investigator in the areas surrounding
Philadelphia which would include Camden; would that be correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And had you been given any inkling of information at
all that this woman that you were being asked to locate had any ties
whatsoever to Camden you would have utilized those same sources that you
had to make those same inquiries in Camden, wouldn't you sir?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. But you in fact were not given any information that
this witness had any contacts whatsoever with Camden at anytime; am I
correct about that?
A. To the best that I recall.
Q. Now, as a result of this work that you did, these
official and unofficial databases, I take it that you were unsuccessful in
providing any additional information about Miss Jones; is that
correct?
A. That's correct.
Page 122.
Lamont Anderson - Cross
Q. Over what period of time did those searches take place?
A. I don't know exactly.
Q. Well, did you submit a bill for your services?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Have you had an opportunity to review that bill?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And for how many hours did you bill?
A. I didn't even note that.
Q. Were you being compensated?
A. Yes.
Q. At what rate, please?
A. $35 an hour.
Q. And what was your total compensation or what was your total number
of hours?
A. Well, the bill included other information, so.
Q. Other investigative work you were doing?
A. Yes.
Q. Would it be fair to say that your entire investigative
work in this matter covered a period of about two months?
A. I would say at least that.
Q. How much more than that?
A. Well, it could have gone over two months but
Page 123.
Lamont Anderson - Cross
I'm, we're not talking, say, like a year, no.
Q. Well, are we talking three months? I am simply trying
to identify a period of time in which you did this work.
A. I'm trying to recall back just how long I was involved
and... I really don't know exactly but I would estimate anywhere from
three months to six months.
Q. Now, when you were advised that you were replacing Mr. Al Shabazz,
did you communicate with him?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. Were you provided any written reports or documents
that had been generated by him from which you were asked to follow up?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. You were simply, then, provided with a name and an address?
A. Yes.
Q. And the address being in Philadelphia?
A. Yes.
MS. FISK: Thank you, sir.
I have nothing further of Mr. Anderson, Your Honor.
- - - - -
Page 124.
Lamont Anderson - Redirect
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
- - - - -
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Just one, Mr. Anderson. As you sit there today, do you
know if you limited your investigation to the City of Philadelphia or you
looked in the environs of Philadelphia as well?
A. To be honest, from memory I don't recall. But --
Q. You might have?
MS. FISK: Apparently Mr. Weinglass just cut off his witness, Your
Honor.
MR. WEINGLASS: I'm sorry.
MS. FISK: He had something else to say.
BY: MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Yes, please?
A. -- But to be honest, if I had actually, if I had went
to Camden or Jersey or anywhere, it seems to me that I would have
remembered that.
MR. WEINGLASS: Okay. Fair enough. Thank you.
THE COURT: All right?
Looks like that's all. Thank you.
(Witness excused.)
Page 125.
THE COURT: Could we break for lunch until 1:30?
MR. WEINGLASS: Just before lunch -- we are about to
conclude on our side -- I would like to have the same privilege that we
gave the District Attorney to have the names of their witnesses.
THE COURT: Well, talk to her, I don't know who they are.
MR. WEINGLASS: Well, we recited it yesterday on the
record so that it was clear. I wish to be given the same privilege.
THE COURT: Well, she put the witnesses outside.
MR. WEINGLASS: We don't know who she is going to be calling.
THE COURT: Ask her.
MR. WEINGLASS: I was asked on the record yesterday and I responded on
the record.
THE COURT: I said ask her.
MR. WEINGLASS: I ask for the same privilege.
THE COURT: Counselor, I am hungry, I am going to lunch.
Between now and the time I come back, if she doesn't give it to you,
then
Page 126.
ask me again, okay. I will see you at 1:30.
THE COURT OFFICER: This Court now stands in luncheon recess until 1:30
p.m. at the call of the Crier.
(Luncheon recess was held until 1:45 p.m.)
THE COURT: Good afternoon, everybody.
MR. PIPER: Your Honor, the defense would call Mr. George Edwards as the
next witness.
MS. FISK: I'm sorry, Your Honor, I had misunderstood. I
thought Counsel had said they were resting prior to lunch. There is a
Commonwealth witness in the Courtroom and she will have to have her
records back from Miss Wolkenstein so she can sequester herself.
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: All right, then we will take a few minutes later
(handing).
- - - - -
George Edwards, having been duly sworn,
was examined
and testified as follows:
- - - - -
BY MR. PIPER:
Page 127.
George Edwards - Direct
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Edwards.
A. Good afternoon.
Q. Mr. Edwards, in what city do you reside?
A. I reside in the city of New Haven, state of Connecticut.
Q. And did you travel voluntarily to Philadelphia to give testimony
today?
A. I did indeed.
Q. How do you presently support yourself?
A. I'm presently unemployed due to disability.
Q. And what is your age, sir?
A. 59.
Q. Before you went on disability, what was your last paid job?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. In terms of relevance, I don't
understand it yet.
MR. PIPER: It is just background.
THE COURT: Well, we could leave the background. What did
he do in this case. Let's get right to it, it is getting late.
BY MR. PIPER:
Q. Do you know someone in New Haven named Veronica Jones?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And how did you come to know her?
Page 128.
George Edwards - Direct
A. I knew her through the capacity of my job and what I do, what I
formerly did professionally.
Q. And what was that job?
A. Educational outreach worker with the AIDS division of the City of
New Haven's Health Department.
Q. When did you complete, when did you last work at that job?
A. June of 1992.
Q. And when to the best of your recollection did you first meet
Veronica Jones that lived in New Haven?
A. In the spring of 1991.
Q. Do you know her approximate age at that time?
A. Somewhere approximately in the range of the middle thirties.
Q. Did you know how she supported herself in New Haven when you met
her?
A. Yes; she was a sex professional.
Q. It is called a prostitute?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you know whether she was involved in any drug use?
A. Yes, she was a client of heroin in my drug treatment advocacy
program.
Page 129.
George Edwards - Direct
Q. And did you know where she had lived prior to New Haven?
A. She stated to me when I met her that she had prior
experiences in prostitution in the state of North Carolina and in the
state of Pennsylvania.
Q. You said that you are currently unemployed. Do you engage in any
voluntary work?
A. Yes.
Q. And what voluntary work have you engaged in in the past two
years?
A. I'm on the board of directors of a public access
television station and I'm an independent producer of a show called Truth
Incorporated.
Q. In connection with that work, is it your practice to
review newspaper articles relating to matters of interest to the black
community?
A. Yes.
Q. And is it your practice to clip articles of interest?
A. Yes.
MR. PIPER: I would like to mark the next Exhibit (handing).
MS. FISK: Okay, thank you.
MR. PIPER: For the record, the next Exhibit is D-3.
Page 130.
George Edwards - Direct
(Copy of newspaper article was marked
Defense Exhibit
D-3 for identification.)
THE COURT OFFICER: So marked D-3, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. PIPER: Which appears to be a newspaper clipping with
a handwritten date, New Haven Register, March 30th, 1995. And a
photograph.
BY MR. PIPER:
Q. Can you identify that document, Mr. Edwards?
A. Yes, I can.
Q. What is it?
A. It's a copy of a newspaper article with a photo and an
article describing the event that's taking place in the photo.
Q. Can you identify the woman who is prominently featured in the
photograph?
A. Yes.
Q. Who is she?
A. She is the Veronica Jones that I've been questioned about that I've
made reference to.
Q. Did you clip this article at about the date that it bears?
A. Yes.
Page 131.
George Edwards - Direct
Q. Why did you clip it at that time?
A. I clipped it because of the event of the rally against, for, you
know, for the homelessness.
Q. And again for the record, what is the date that it bears?
A. March 30th, 1995.
Q. At sometime after you clipped it, at the end of March
or early April of 1995 -- let me strike that. In the course of your
readings were you familiar with this case that is Commonwealth versus
Jamal in Philadelphia?
A. In some aspects, yes.
Q. And did you come to be aware that there was a witness in the case
named Veronica Jones?
A. Yes.
Q. At some point in time after clipping this photograph,
did it occur to you that there might be a connection between the Veronica
Jones that you knew in New Haven and this case?
A. Yes.
Q. About how long after you clipped this did that occur to you?
A. Approximately, umm, approximately a month or so later.
Q. At that time how long had it been since you
Page 132.
George Edwards - Direct
had actually physically seen the Veronica Jones you knew in New
Haven?
A. Approximately... six months.
Q. When you made that realization that she might have
some connection to this case -- well, let me ask you: What did you know
about her connection to this case?
A. I didn't know anything about her connection with this case.
Q. I'm sorry, what did you know about the witness Veronica Jones in
this case, if anything?
A. I've read accounts that there was a missing witness to
this case by the name of Veronica Jones, that she had prior background in
prostitution and drug addiction.
Q. When it occurred to you that this Veronica Jones that
you knew in New Haven might have a connection to this case, did you do
anything about that?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do?
A. I placed a call to attorney Leonard Weinglass.
Q. And did you make contact with him?
A. Yes; by telephone.
Q. And what did you tell him in that telephone
Page 133.
George Edwards - Direct
call?
A. I described the photo article that I had. I described
to him the activities that she made me aware of, and that I knew that she
was a prostitute, a drug addict, and that she expressed to me that she had
prior been in the state of Pennsylvania.
Q. Did you tell Mr. Weinglass her approximate age?
A. Yes.
Q. As a result of that conversation with Mr. Weinglass,
did you do anything further regarding the Veronica Jones in New Haven?
A. Yes.
Q. Let me step back. About when did that phone call occur?
A. Approximately, umm... Early June, I believe. Last of May, early
June.
Q. And as a result of that phone call what activities did you then
undertake?
A. Umm... I proceeded to try to locate her.
Q. Did you send any further materials to Mr. Weinglass?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you send him?
A. Well, I sent him a copy of this in the mail.
Page 134.
George Edwards - Direct
Q. What information did you try to obtain about her?
A. I tried to locate her by address and telephone number.
Q. Was there any other specific information that you tried to find out
about her?
A. I think when Mr. Weinglass got the article, I think I
heard from him again, he said I would need a Social Security number for
this woman.
Q. Did you talk to people to try to locate her?
A. Yes.
Q. About how many people did you talk to?
A. Approximately 75 people.
Q. Were you ultimately able to obtain her Social Security number?
A. Yes.
Q. When was that?
A. That was approximately the first week of July 1995.
Q. And what did you do with that information?
A. I immediately made a telephone call to Mr. Weinglass and gave him
the information.
Q. Do you know an investigator named Michael Newman?
A. I've met one and -- yes.
Page 135.
George Edwards - Direct
Q. And where did you meet him?
A. I met him in the city of New Haven.
Q. And could you tell us the date that you met him?
A. I met him on July the 14th, 1995.
Q. And did you and Mr. Newman do anything in New Haven regarding the
Veronica Jones that's shown in this picture?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do?
A. We went to the address that I had been given for her.
And I didn't get a response at the apartment. We then drove all over the
city in areas where there was high drug activity looking for her visually.
And I left word with numerous persons on the street that I was seeking her
rather urgently.
Q. Did you succeed in finding her that day?
A. No.
Q. After Mr. Newman's visit did you continue trying to locate Miss
Jones?
A. Yes.
Q. After his visit what was the next communication that you had with
the defense team?
A. I got a call from Mr. Weinglass about the end of July in which he
said to me that the Social
Page 136.
George Edwards - Direct
Security numbers didn't match and that she wasn't the Veronica Jones
that he was looking for.
Q. Subsequent to that did you ever ultimately contact the Veronica
Jones in New Haven?
A. I finally located her, yes.
Q. And at that time did you confirm that she was not the Veronica Jones
who is connected to this case?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you inquire if she had any further information
about another Veronica Jones who had engaged in prostitution in
Pennsylvania?
A. Yes.
Q. And did she have any such information that she gave to you?
A. She said she was totally unfamiliar with the other Veronica
Jones.
MR. PIPER: I have no further questions at this time, Your Honor.
MS. FISK: May I inquire?
THE COURT: Sure.
MS. FISK: Thank you.
- - - - -
CROSS-EXAMINATION
- - - - -
BY MS. FISK:
Page 137.
George Edwards - Cross
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Edwards.
A. Good afternoon.
Q. Mr. Edwards, as a community activist you obviously
keep very careful records and clippings of any articles of interest to the
black community; is that right?
A. Some, not all.
Q. Would you consider it an extensive collection of articles?
A. I sort through newspapers and sometimes I keep things
for a while and sometimes I throw them out. And they pile up and I box
them and I get rid of them for recycling.
Q. I trust in this case that you in fact had clippings
from the case Commonwealth versus Jamal, would that be accurate?
A. Clippings from?
Q. Relating to Mr. Jamal.
A. Yes.
Q. In fact, that is how you knew to contact Mr. Weinglass
when in early June 1995 you had some information; would that be accurate
to say?
A. No.
Q. How did you know to contact Mr. Weinglass, sir?
Page 138.
George Edwards - Cross
A. Well, there was a tremendous amount of public
information out about the defense, the names of the attorneys, the names
of the prosecution, the name of the Judge. Various organizations and
individuals, and information out on the Internet, Faxes, newspapers,
books, articles, things like that about --
Q. And from which of those sources, sir, was it that you
read accounts that there was a missing witness being sought named Veronica
Jones?
A. I don't recall which particular piece of paper or
point of information but I was aware that I had run across it in numerous,
you know, pieces of information.
Q. And did you retain any of those clippings that
discussed the fact that a Veronica Jones was being sought as a missing
witness?
A. Yes, I believe I did.
Q. Did you bring those with you today, sir?
A. No.
Q. Do you know from what publications those clippings existed?
A. Like I said, I'm not certain if they were just
clippings but, umm, I do know that there was, there was a, umm, search or
some interest in finding
Page 139.
George Edwards - Cross
Veronica Jones.
Q. I apologize, sir.
A. Go ahead.
Q. What other witnesses were being sought as missing witnesses,
sir?
A. I can't recall if there were any others.
Q. That is the only name that you remember being sought?
A. Yeah.
Q. And what was the date that you recall becoming aware
through publications of some sort that a Veronica Jones was being sought
as a missing witness?
A. Umm, somewhere around... somewhere around this time frame of this,
spring of '95, somewhere around that time.
Q. How is it that you are able to relate learning that piece of
information to that period of time, sir?
A. Well, I was thinking when I pulled this article out,
I'm thinking I wonder if this is the Veronica Jones that is being sought.
But I didn't immediately call Mr. Weinglass because I didn't want to be
guilty of giving false information or sending people on a wild goose
chase. So I kind of just waited and said maybe I'll find her. And I
thought
Page 140.
George Edwards - Cross
well maybe I shouldn't wait forever too long if I can't find her, so I
called him.
Q. And that was in early June 1995; is that right?
A. Either late May or early June.
Q. Okay. Now, how is it, sir, that you obtained her Social Security
number?
A. In the photo, in the background is the City Hall of
the city of New Haven. And in the windows there's an organization called
Fight Back. And I have a relationship with the drug treatment advocacy
persons in that organization. And in the course of inquiring about her, I
asked one of the workers if he knew where I could find her. And he is the
one who gave me her address and a phone number. And I went back to him and
asked him had he seen her. And he said yes and in fact he was trying to
implore her. And I said do you have her Social Security number. He said
yes so I said give it to me.
Q. That easy?
A. Yes.
Q. And after you received a call from Mr. Weinglass that
the Social Security number was the wrong one and that it wasn't the
person, that was the end of July?
Page 141.
George Edwards - Cross
A. That was -- yeah, around the end of July.
Q. And that was despite the fact that she had never been
physically located by you or Mr. Newman up to that point, so far as you
knew?
A. Right.
MS. FISK: Thank you, sir. I have nothing further, Your Honor.
- - - - -
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
- - - - -
BY MR. PIPER:
Q. Other than the time that Mr. Newman visited on July 14th, did you
try to visit her address on other occasions?
A. Numerous occasions.
Q. And did you try to call her phone number on numerous occasions?
A. I left numerous messages.
Q. And did you leave messages through other means.
A. Yes; I spoke to persons who lived in her building. And on the
streets again.
MR. PIPER: I have nothing further, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right, you are
Page 142.
excused.
MR. PIPER: Thank you.
(Witness excused.)
MR. WEINGLASS: Defense calls Richard Childs.
Richard Childs, having been duly sworn,
was examined
and testified as follows:
- - - - -
DIRECT EXAMINATION
- - - - -
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Childs.
A. Good afternoon.
Q. Mr. Childs, where do you reside, in what state?
A. Westfield, New Jersey.
Q. And what is your occupation and employment?
A. I'm a licensed private detective in the state of New Jersey.
Q. And how long have you been so licensed?
A. 10 years.
Q. Directing your attention back to October of 1994, were you then a
licensed private investigator?
A. I was.
Page 143.
Richard Childs - Direct
Q. And were you engaged in your own business?
A. Yes.
Q. Did there come a time in October of 1994 when you were contacted by
anyone associated with this case?
A. Yes.
Q. And by whom were you contacted?
A. You, sir.
Q. And were you contacted by telephone?
A. Yes.
Q. Did we have a conversation?
A. We did.
Q. Do you recall what you were asked to do if anything with respect to
this case?
A. Yes. You asked me if I could help you locate a witness
by the name of Veronica Jones. You had some information that a Social
Security number was coming to a Dorothy Oliver in Passaic, New Jersey. And
you had some indication that a Dorothy Oliver did live in Passaic, New
Jersey, and you asked me to see if I could locate this witness for
you.
Q. And did you proceed to attempt to locate this witness?
A. Yes, I did. I made some inquiries with the Social Security number
and found it did indeed come
Page 144.
Richard Childs - Direct
to a Dorothy Oliver and also it had it been used by a
Karen Oliver with an employment at MPA Industries in New Jersey. I
attempted to find such an employment. I was unable to. I checked with New
Jersey driver's license, there was none in her name. And then I went to
the address 93 Burgess Place five or six times, left a card each time and
nobody ever responded. And one other time I went back and a young man
answered the door and told me that he would give my card to Miss Oliver.
But nobody ever responded. I told you about it and closed the case.
Q. Was it ever indicated to you that others had attempted to locate her
prior to your entry into the case?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Where are you going?
MR. WEINGLASS: Just that question.
MS. FISK: Seeking hearsay, Your Honor, and I object.
MR. WEINGLASS: No. It explains the course of conduct that
he followed. He was given some information and he acted on it. Part of the
information he was given is that there were other attempts made to locate
Miss Oliver at that address. I am just asking him that
Page 145.
Richard Childs - Direct
question.
MS. FISK: I will withdraw my objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I don't know how he knows but go ahead, ask him.
THE WITNESS: Mr. Weinglass told me that he had been to the location
himself.
MS. FISK: Ahh.
THE WITNESS: And verified a Dorothy Oliver on the mail box but nothing
else.
MS. FISK: Ahh.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. So that this is clarification in your testimony, the
Dorothy Oliver that you were looking for in Passaic, New Jersey was, you
were told, believed to be the Veronica Jones that was being looked for in
this case?
A. Yes, the witness you wanted me to find was a Veronica Jones, using
the name Dorothy Oliver.
MR. WEINGLASS: Nothing further.
- - - - -
CROSS-EXAMINATION
- - - - -
BY MS. FISK:
Q. So I understand, Mr. Childs -- good afternoon.
Page 146.
Richard Childs - Cross
A. Good afternoon.
Q. Mr. Childs, you were contacted by Mr. Weinglass?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were told he was trying to locate someone known as Veronica
Jones?
A. Correct.
Q. You were told that she had a Social Security number that Mr.
Weinglass had obtained in some fashion?
A. Yes.
Q. You were told that he had already checked that Social
Security number and found that it came back to someone named Dorothy
Oliver who resided at a known address in Passaic, New Jersey, according to
Mr. Weinglass' own checks?
A. Yes.
Q. You again checked the Social Security number,
confirmed that it in fact came back to Miss Oliver, confirmed that Miss
Oliver indeed did live at that same address that Mr. Weinglass had already
told you that Miss Oliver resided at, and that was the end of your
participation in this case?
A. That is correct.
Q. You were asked to do nothing else with regard
Page 147.
Richard Childs - Cross
to the location of Miss Jones?
A. I went back about five or six times to that location.
Q. That location?
A. Looking for Miss Jones, yes.
Q. And your participation was focused expressly on, and
you were hired expressly to locate the person known as Dorothy Oliver at
the address that Mr. Weinglass had confirmed she lived at, or attempted to
confirm she lived at in Passaic, New Jersey?
A. I believe the scope was to locate Veronica Jones using the name of
Dorothy Oliver at that address.
Q. Who was believed to live at that address with that Social Security
number?
A. Yes.
Q. And that was the extent of your participation?
A. Yes.
Q. How long did that effort take, sir?
A. I guess five or six trips, probably about eight to ten hours
investigative time total.
Q. Over the course of what period, then?
A. Six weeks, five or six weeks.
MS. FISK: Thank you, sir.
I have nothing further, Your Honor.
Page 148.
MR. WEINGLASS: Nothing further.
THE COURT: You are excused.
MR. WEINGLASS: Thank you, Mr. Childs.
(Discussion was held off the record at this time.)
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Your Honor, I wanted to address the Court and make an
offer of proof.
Defense Counsel contacted Joseph A. Brignola of Joseph A.
Brignola, Inc. on 9-12-96, spoke with him, and indicated, confirmed with
him that he was in fact an investigator who had been employed by Mr.
Weinglass in August of '93 and worked for the defense team for a period of
time through December of '93. And in that period of time did a profile
check on Veronica Jones --
MS. FISK: I'm sorry, Your Honor, before Counsel
continues: Is this being offered in lieu of the witness being called? I am
not quite clear.
THE COURT: I don't know. I don't know what she's doing.
MS. FISK: Well, is Mr. Brignola going to be testifying?
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: I want to get to
Page 149.
that, Your Honor.
MS. FISK: Well, I would ask that we get to that before
any proffered substance of testimony be made of record, because it is
improperly made of record.
THE COURT: Well, if it is improper I will just strike it.
MS. FISK: Fine.
THE COURT: Don't worry about it.
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Mr. Brignola checked voter registration
in the City of Philadelphia, he did a criminal record inquiry using the
names Rhonda Harris and Louise Tatum. And he understood that she was
arrested in 1982 under the Louise Tatum name and he did a Social Security
check under a particular Social Security number.
He further did an entire search under Veronica Jones' PPP
number -- that's the Philadelphia Police photo number -- 560335, and went
through the criminal records in the records rooms listing the various
different charges of prostitution through '79 and '82. And as I indicated,
had already checked the underlying charges involved in the '82 to '88 gun
and
Page 150.
robbery charges records.
Mr. Brignola completed that work for the defense team and
did not in that course of time locate Veronica Jones under any of the
aliases that he looked for, and provided a summary to the defense team,
specifically to Mr. Weinglass, two communications summarizing this on
August 25th, 1993 and December 30th, 1993.
Mr. Brignola when I spoke to him on the 12th of
September, when we learned that a hearing was going to take place before
this Court, contacted him, confirmed that he was in fact the Joseph A.
Brignola so employed by the defense, and he said that he was more than
willing to come in and testify as to his work as an investigator on behalf
of the defense in the case of Commonwealth versus Mumia Abu-Jamal. He
further indicated that he was going to be out of town from September 16th
through September 27th, specifically in London, and that his further
schedule involved him being further out of town from Philadelphia from
October 9th to October 16th. The reason for these dates were precisely
because of that early date we did not know that
Page 151.
he was, what date this Court would set for a hearing.
Mr. Brignola I believe is well known to the District
Attorney's Office: He is a retired police detective and a licensed
investigator in the City of Philadelphia.
I further spoke to Mr. Brignola, he confirmed that he
checked his records. I inquired if he had further records of his work for
the defense and he indicated that he didn't have any records that were
more than two years old, everything else was destroyed. He suggested that
I send him a subpoena, he would accept service and he would appear in
Court. I so mailed him a subpoena by overnight mail on the 12th of
September, and confirmed with him at his voice mail when we learned of our
September 18th date, and again after our September 18th date, when I
learned of the date that we had set for October 1st.
On September 28th, after the scheduled date of his
return, I further contacted or left a message with Mr. Brignola's
answering machine or service, and further informed him that he would be
needed in Court on October 1st.
Page 152.
However, he did not return that and several other calls left on his
machine.
Last night our investigator Chris Milton, who appeared in
Court and testified yesterday, went out to try and locate Mr. Brignola,
since we had not had any response to our subpoena and to the repeated
phone calls, despite his promise that he would appear here. Mr. Milton
went to 2319 Carlisle Street, which is the working address for Mr.
Brignola, spoke to a gentleman there who was described as approximately in
his forties at that address, a white male who refused to give his name but
told Mr. Milton that Mr. Brignola had a back injury and was at his
sister's and would not return for a week.
We have not been able to confirm that since we have no
other way at this particular late date and within the time period to
confirm whether or not the gentleman who Mr. Milton spoke to was Joseph A.
Brignola or not or a relative or whatever or where Mr. Brignola's sister
is.
I would request this Court to enforce our subpoena and send the Sheriff
to go and find
Page 153.
and locate Mr. Brignola and bring him in as a witness in this case.
And alternatively, I submit to be marked for
identification as Defense Exhibit 4 this correspondence from Mr. Brignola
to Mr. Leonard A. Weinglass, two letters dated October 25th, 1993 and
December 30th, 1993.
MS. FISK: Your Honor, I will not accept the offer of
proof, nor would I agree that the letters from Mr. Brignola to Counsel
would be admissible as a factual basis of anything.
THE COURT: I am not accepting anything as substantive evidence.
MS. FISK: With regard to Counsel's request that a warrant
be issued for their own witness, I would leave that for the Court: I am
obviously not a party to that.
THE COURT: I am not satisfied that he was served initially. You said
you sent it to him by mail?
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: I sent it to him by mail based on his representation
that he would accept service.
THE COURT: That is not good service.
Page 154.
If we would make all services by mail, why do we need
certified deputies or -- what do we have -- Court process servers now?
What do they call them?
THE COURT OFFICER: ROR Officers, Judge.
THE COURT: ROR.
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: If you would endorse a subpoena today I would be glad
to --
THE COURT: Counsel --
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: -- request that the Sheriff's Department go out
there.
THE COURT: Do you think the Sheriffs Department has enough time to go
look for your witness?
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: I believe if the Court so ordered it as
a way of completing a full record here in this case it would be done.
THE COURT: Completing it. I am not going to wait until
1997 to complete this hearing. I am on a schedule too. If this witness
doesn't want to show up for you, that's your problem.
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Your Honor, as we explained to you this is a very
important
Page 155.
witness, and I had every reason to believe --
THE COURT: All of the witnesses are important. Everything you say there
is important.
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: I had every reason to believe based on
my several-times communications with Mr. Brignola that he would show up in
Court today.
THE COURT: Now you know you can't take his word for it.
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: I also made it clear on the record that
Mr. Brignola answers a whole number of questions and accusations being
made by the prosecution, specifically whether or not the various criminal
records belonging to Veronica Jones, Rhonda Harris, Louise Tatum have ever
been searched and looked for by the defense.
THE COURT: Well.
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: In fact, his testimony and the documents
that I am trying to get submitted here indicate and establish that that
was done from October 25th, 1993 through the period of time of December
30th.
THE COURT: Well, you go out and look
Page 156.
for him. You have a lot of people here that are outside parading and
tell them to go out and look for him.
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Your Honor, I would ask for these to be marked for
identification.
THE COURT: I am not accepting anything you are giving me as substantive
evidence.
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Well, it could be marked for identification, Your
Honor.
THE COURT: No. For what purpose? We don't have a witness here to
substantiate it.
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: I would make an offer of proof on the
record and explain to the Court the difficulties in serving the
subpoena.
THE COURT: Take it up with the Supreme Court. If they
want to give you more time they will send it back down to me to give you
more time.
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: I believe it would provide sufficient background for
what undoubtedly would be our request --
THE COURT: Take it up with the Supreme Court.
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: The Court has
Page 157.
refused to support us?
THE COURT: Counselor, I have already answered your
question. I am not going to answer it one more time. Take it up with the
Supreme Court. I am not considering it here, period.
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Alternatively, I would ask at any time that we have
the opportunity to further seek Mr. Brignola --
THE COURT: You can go --
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: -- and bring him in before the close of this
hearing.
THE COURT: You are right, and I am going to close this
hearing as quickly as possible. I only have 30 days. He has to type up the
record. And I have to make a report back to them. You go up there and ask
them for more time. I didn't set the time limits. The Supreme Court set
the time limits.
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Just so I am clear about the time limit
here, Your Honor: We then can try and bring him in any time between the
time of now and the close of this hearing whether or not we have otherwise
rested or whatever? I mean in other words, we are not
Page 158.
going to rest until we try and find him.
THE COURT: Oh, you are going to rest. I am not going to
continue anything. Take it up with the Supreme Court. If they think it's
important enough they will send it back down to me for further hearing.
Okay.
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Okay.
THE COURT: All right. Do you have any other witnesses?
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Yes, Your Honor. Well, at this time I am
moving into evidence Quarter Session files that were subpoenaed by the
defense on the criminal cases of Veronica Jones, a/k/a Rhonda Harris. They
have been here in Court for the past period of time. The numbers on them,
for the record, are MC 7905-700. MC 8006-2923. MC 8107-0874. MC 8108-0110.
MC 8110-1354. MC 8102-3187. MC 8105-1352. All right --
MS. FISK: I'm sorry, before you continue, I had just to
clarify, Miss Wolkenstein. You had an 8108-0110 and then immediately
following was 8110, was that accurate?
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: I'm sorry, 0110,
Page 159.
then 1354. I mean they all start 81.
810-8-0110. Next is 8110-1354.
MS. FISK: Yes, thank you.
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: So I ask these to be admitted into evidence. I presume
there is no objection to that.
MS. FISK: I assume Counsel is asking the Commonwealth to
stipulate that if the Clerk of Quarter Sessions were to testify the Clerk
would identify these files as accurately having been kept by the Clerk and
that these are in fact the files of the Clerk of Quarter Sessions. And
with that stipulation I have no problem.
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Okay. That's wonderful. I also want to
further state for the record, in these files, looking through them all,
these names and addresses and dates and everything in there, nowhere in
these records is the current correct address of either Miss Veronica Jones
or her mother in Camden, New Jersey. Nowhere in these files.
MS. FISK: I will also stipulate I assume the records could speak for
themselves.
THE COURT: The Supreme Court could look through them.
Page 160.
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Furthermore, there are three other
files, two other files here and I have to probably locate one other thing
that was missing. These are files of Cynthia White.
THE COURT: Well, she is not involved in this matter right now.
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: What is an issue here, Your Honor --
THE COURT: She is not involved in the issue.
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Let me make an offer of proof.
THE COURT: I don't want an offer of proof. I am not
interested in Cynthia White. It was sent down here for one purpose only
and that's the only purpose I am hearing it.
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: The prosecution has tried to impugn the
testimony of Veronica Jones in the following way, of saying that Cynthia
White --
THE COURT: No, she has herself.
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: That Cynthia White is not Lucky. They
say in their answering papers to the Supreme Court, they dispute --
THE COURT: Take it up with the
Page 161.
Supreme Court.
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: In these files, Your Honor, is a clear
record that one of the names of Cynthia White is Lucky. And for that
reason, for that reason --
THE COURT: Let me say this: If the Supreme Court wants those records it
can send for them.
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: So you are denying that being accepted into the
record?
THE COURT: Right.
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Despite the fact they have proof in there that Cynthia
White is Lucky?
THE COURT: If the Supreme Court wants to look for them,
they could send for them. They could get anything they want down here. I
am not sending it up to them. They sent it to me for one purpose and
that's all.
But next, are you resting?
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Provisional to the attempt to locate Joseph
Brignola.
THE COURT: You are resting, then, as far as I am concerned.
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: You are not allowing
Page 162.
us to even try to find him?
THE COURT: I don't care what you do but you're resting now, are
you?
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Under those, you have just told us we are resting. We
would like to at least be able to --
THE COURT: I know you would like to do a lot of things
but I am under orders from the Supreme Court to have a hearing now and to
get rid of it. I don't know why this witness that you're talking about is
so important.
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: I just indicated for the record.
THE COURT: Well, if the Supreme Court thinks it's important --
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: I presume it is not an issue, Your
Honor, whether or not the defense has ever tried to find the Quarter
Sessions file, the criminal records of Veronica Jones, a/k/a Rhonda
Harris, a/k/a Louise Tatum, and the Court is saying this is not
relevant.
THE COURT: I let you put in the records for --
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: I would accept that Court's finding gladly. Is that
your finding?
Page 163.
THE COURT: I am not telling you what my finding is. I
didn't hear the whole case yet. Don't presuppose what I'm going to do. You
could argue all you want and when you get up to the Supreme Court say I
wouldn't give you more time and you need this witness. If they think he's
important they'll send it back down to me and take his testimony,
okay.
MR. WEINGLASS: We are merely trying to comply with the Supreme Court
Order that we develop --
THE COURT: That's what I am trying to do.
MR. WEINGLASS: -- a full factual record.
THE COURT: I am trying to do the same thing.
MR. WEINGLASS: The Supreme Court put that in particularly.
THE COURT: The Supreme Court didn't say you could have six months.
MR. WEINGLASS: No.
THE COURT: They gave me only 30 days to hear this, and 30
days to do my opinion, and he has to type the record up first before I
Page 164.
could even do that.
MR. WEINGLASS: Yes.
THE COURT: I don't know how long it is going to take him to transcribe
the notes.
MR. WEINGLASS: The Supreme Court addressed this hearing and they said
it should commence on October 1st.
THE COURT: Right.
MR. WEINGLASS: And it did, but they didn't put any time limit on
it.
THE COURT: Oh, yes, they did.
MR. WEINGLASS: No.
THE COURT: Oh, yes. I am supposed to make my opinion within 30 days
from that time.
MR. WEINGLASS: That's right, from the time, but, Your
Honor, certainly giving us a few extra days to locate a critical witness
--
THE COURT: No.
MR. WEINGLASS: -- and to bring them in here --
THE COURT: If he is that critical the Supreme Court will send it back
down. Take it up with them.
MR. WEINGLASS: There is no need to impose on their time.
Page 165.
THE COURT: I am not imposing on their time. They imposed
on my time, they said do this within a certain time, and I am trying to do
that.
MR. WEINGLASS: You could easily accomplish this within 30 days.
THE COURT: No, I can't.
MR. WEINGLASS: We only ask for a few days for Mr. Newman, for Mr.
Brignola.
THE COURT: You had all those days, you should have been
looking for him, he should have been here. If he doesn't come here that is
your problem, not mine.
MR. WEINGLASS: As Miss Wolkenstein stated on the record, our attempts
to locate Mr. Brignola --
THE COURT: Why didn't you locate him?
MR. WEINGLASS: We stated why we can't have Mr. Newman and
we have only asked for a very brief period to bring in the two
witnesses.
THE COURT: Like I am saying to you, if the Supreme Court
thinks they are important enough they will send it back down to me to hear
it. Then I will hear it then. I am not going to be delaying this matter
any longer.
Page 166.
So you are resting or do I have to rest for you?
MR. WEINGLASS: It is up to the Court. We have made our position
clear.
THE COURT: I know you have made your position clear. You don't have
anymore witnesses to present now?
MR. WEINGLASS: At the moment, no.
THE COURT: Okay, so they are resting now.
MR. WEINGLASS: We ask for time to present witnesses.
THE COURT: Is the Commonwealth presenting any witnesses?
MS. FISK: Yes. Several. First and very brief will be Miss Roseann
Reffner. She is outside somewhere.
THE COURT: All right.
MS. FISK: Miss Reffner is bringing some original copies.
I would be happy to hand a copy, that is the only copy I have, just so
Counsel can review what Miss Reffner will be testifying about. Miss
Wolkenstein started looking at them earlier (handing).
(Pause.)
Page 167.
MR. WEINGLASS: Just one point, Your Honor. I just wanted
to clarify one thing for the Court. The remand Order of the Supreme Court
gave this Court 30 days at the end of the hearing, they didn't say 30 days
from October 1st.
THE COURT: But they didn't say to take six months to have the hearing
over.
MR. WEINGLASS: No, we are only asking for a few days.
THE COURT: I am not giving you a few days. You had plenty
of days to get him. You should have sought his arrest before this if he
wasn't going to come in.
Roseann Reffner, having been duly sworn,
was examined
and testified as follows:
- - - - -
DIRECT EXAMINATION
- - - - -
BY MS. FISK:
Q. Miss Reffner, how are you employed?
A. I'm records manager for the Philadelphia County Adult
Probation-Parole Department.
Q. I think you have to pull that microphone down.
Page 168.
Roseann Reffner - Direct
A. I am the records manager for the Philadelphia County Adult
Probation-Parole Department.
Q. And in that capacity are you the custodian of records for
Philadelphia County Probation And Parole?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Miss Reffner, if an individual has the name and a
Police photo identification number of a person who has been placed in the
City of Philadelphia, is there a file existing under your custody
regarding that individual?
A. Yes.
Q. Can a member of the public with a properly issued
subpoena duces tecum which includes the name of that individual and a
Police photo number of that individual obtain a copy of the Probation
Department's record regarding that individual?
A. Yes.
MR. WEINGLASS: Objection to the form of the question. It
is a hypothetical question which does not include all the necessary facts
in the question.
MS. FISK: I am sure Counsel can clarify on cross-examination.
THE COURT: Well, you have cross-examination, you could bring in
whatever
Page 169.
Roseann Reffner - Direct
you want. You could quote it your way, what you think should be
asked.
Go ahead.
BY MS. FISK:
Q. Miss Reffner, utilizing the name of an individual and
a Police photo number, when an individual contacts the Adult County
Probation Department, which you are the custodian of records, can that
individual who is attempting to obtain a file obtain a case number and
thereafter a copy of an individual's probation file?
A. Normally what we do is check to see if there is a
probation officer active on that case. If there is that call is referred
to that probation officer and he, he or she makes the determination
whether the case will be disseminated to that individual.
Q. And of course when you are confronted with a subpoena
duces tecum there is no question you must comply; is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And as a result of the subpoena duces tecum issued to
the Department of Probation by me within the last week or two, was the
file in, the probation file in the case of Rhonda Harris, also known as
Veronica Jones, provided to me?
Page 170.
Roseann Reffner - Direct
A. Yes.
MS. FISK: Your Honor, I have provided my copy to Counsel.
As soon as he is done I will ask that it be marked and shown to the
witness.
(Pause.)
(Discussion was held off the record at this time.)
THE COURT: Could we have that thing marked.
MS. FISK: I'm sorry, Your Honor?
THE COURT: I am asking why are they going through all this now.
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Because we weren't --
THE COURT: That's all right, before you cross-examine I
will let you look at it. You are holding it up, you are holding up this
Court.
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: The District Attorney spent 10 minutes reading another
document.
THE COURT: You spent 10 minutes. He has looked at it, the other guy's
looked at, you are looking at it now.
Page 171.
Roseann Reffner - Direct
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: No, just Mr. Weinglass and myself.
MR. WEINGLASS: Object, we object to the document being admitted into
evidence.
THE COURT: All right, object.
MR. WEINGLASS: We object.
THE COURT: She is asking it to be identified, okay. Take it, mark it
for identification, let's see where we go.
(Probation file of Veronica Jones was
marked
Commonwealth Exhibit C-3 for identification.)
THE COURT OFFICER: So marked C-3, Your Honor.
BY MS. FISK:
Q. Miss Reffner, would you kindly review Commonwealth
Exhibit -- I'm sorry -- did you, pursuant to the subpoena issued, subpoena
duces tecum issued to you as custodian of records, bring with you the
original file, that is the Probation Department file regarding Rhonda
Harris, also known as Veronica Jones, who has a Police photo
identification number of 560335?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you be so kind, please, to compare the
Page 172.
Roseann Reffner - Direct
photocopy which has been marked the Commonwealth Exhibit
to the original which you have in your possession just to confirm that it
is indeed an accurate photocopy? And if there is anything missing or
additional, kindly let us know and we will make sure that the photocopy is
conformed.
(Pause.)
A. It is the same with the exception of a printout that
indicates termination of her probation on your copy, not in the master
file.
Q. The termination does not appear in the master file?
A. No, it's a computer printout.
Q. Oh, I see. Okay. Was that created by the office of probation as
well?
A. Yes.
Q. So it is not in the master file but it was provided to me from your
office?
A. Correct.
Q. I see. This Commonwealth Exhibit, Commonwealth Exhibit
3, is this a document which has existed at the County Office of Probation
since it's last entry, which appears on the face of the record to have
been in approximately 1990?
A. Correct.
Page 173.
Roseann Reffner - Direct
Q. And that document has been available and part of the
records and files of the Adult County Probation Office since 1990?
A. Correct.
MS. FISK: Thank you, ma'am.
I have nothing further, Your Honor.
- - - - -
CROSS-EXAMINATION
- - - - -
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Miss Reffner, when you say the document which is C-3
has been available, do you mean it's available to members of the
public?
A. Not generally.
Q. It's only available to people in your office; isn't that
correct?
A. No, it isn't, it is available if we get a subpoena.
Q. Okay. A properly issued subpoena?
A. Correct.
Q. Do you know what a properly issued subpoena is?
A. I know what a subpoena looks like. And I know that this indicates
that it's a subpoena duces tecum.
Q. That brought you here today?
Page 174.
Roseann Reffner - Cross
A. I did not get one for today.
Q. Who was it served on?
A. Excuse me?
Q. Who was it served on?
A. I do not know.
Q. I see. But do you know how a properly issued subpoena is obtained in
the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania?
A. I'm not sure.
Q. So you have no idea how someone on the outside can get
this document in the only way that you know the document could be
obtained, that is through a properly issued subpoena?
A. Correct.
Q. You don't know that no one can obtain these documents
through subpoena unless there is a case in existence that could entitle
the subpoena, do you?
A. No, I do not.
Q. So if the case is not in Court, no one can get a properly issued
subpoena; isn't that true?
A. I don't know how they are issued so I don't know.
Q. And you don't know that this case was not in Court on the PCRA
proceeding until July 12th of 1995?
A. I don't know.
Page 175.
Roseann Reffner - Cross
Q. So that if no one could get a properly issued subpoena
before the case is in Court, which is July of 1995, they could not obtain
this document?
MS. FISK: Judge, I am getting a little confused now as to who it is
that's testifying.
MR. WEINGLASS: I am cross-examining: I am allowed to lead.
MS. FISK: Counsel is asking questions that have no foundation based on
the answers the witness has given.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. You can not tell this Court if someone could obtain a properly
issued subpoena before July 12th, 1995?
A. No, I can't.
MR. WEINGLASS: Right. Now let me -- may I look at a copy of the
document?
THE COURT OFFICER: Mr. Weinglass.
THE COURT: Yes, just sit down, he will get it for you. He doesn't want
to lose his job, you know.
MR. WEINGLASS: I always look forward to the assistance I get from the
Court.
THE COURT OFFICER: (Handing.)
Page 176.
Roseann Reffner - Cross
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. You have either an original or a copy of C-3?
A. Of C-3.
Q. Now, on the first page, the name of the individual
listed on the first page for this file is not Veronica Jones; isn't that
right?
A. I don't know what you're looking at. The first page made be
different than the first page in here.
Q. I'm sorry.
THE COURT: Read something off the page so she could --
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. The letter of August 8th --
MS. FISK: Your Honor, I will agree that the record will
speak for itself. The entirety of the file will become part of the record
in this case and certainly Counsel will be free to argue any portions of
it at the appropriate time.
MR. WEINGLASS: No, no, we have a witness here who
introduces herself as a representative of the Philadelphia County
Probation And Parole Department, who is knowledgeable about these
documents. And now
Page 177.
Roseann Reffner - Cross
that we have the document, I feel free to question the
witness about the contents of the document. She is not merely a file
clerk, she is --
THE COURT: You are the custodian of records?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: She is the custodian of records. She keeps the
records that are given to her on the case. She didn't handle this case
personally.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. How long have you been the custodian of records?
A. For eight years.
Q. And you are familiar with these files, are you not?
A. I'm familiar with the files, correct.
Q. Fine. Now referring to August 8th, 1988, the name of the individual
is listed as Louise Tatum, is it not?
A. Correct.
Q. And when we go to the extract of criminal record,
which is part of these files that you brought today, we have the extract
of criminal record listed
Page 178.
Roseann Reffner - Cross
under the name of Rhonda Harris?
A. Correct.
Q. And the aliases for Rhonda Harris are Veronica Jones,
Louise Tatum, and Laura Smith, three aliases there, right?
A. Correct.
Q. So the extract of criminal record has four different names; isn't
that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And the address that's given is, there are two
addresses given, are there not, Everett Street and Chester Avenue in
Camden; is that right?
A. I see three addresses.
Q. Three addresses, not two?
A. Correct.
Q. So on this one document there are four names and three different
addresses?
A. Correct.
Q. You don't know which one is correct, do you?
A. No, I do not.
THE COURT: She is merely the custodian of records. She doesn't make up
the record.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. You don't know if any of these are correct?
Page 179.
Roseann Reffner - Cross
A. No , I do not.
Q. Now, then let's turn to the Certification of Probation. Is that
listed to Veronica Jones?
A. This is an a/k/a of Veronica Jones.
Q. But what is the first name?
A. Louise Tatum.
Q. Louise Tatum?
A. Correct.
Q. A/k/a Veronica Jones?
A. Correct.
Q. And when we look at the Administrative Supervision document, is that
listed under Veronica Jones?
A. Louise Tatum.
Q. Louise Tatum. In the Court of Common Pleas letter of
August 8th -- I think we have already gone through -- no, it's another
Court of Common Pleas letter, of August 8th, 1988. Is that listed as Re
Veronica Jones?
A. There are two of them.
Q. Yes.
A. Louise Tatum.
Q. Louise Tatum. The Out-Of-Town Services Document, is
that listed in the typed form to Louise Tatum or Veronica Jones?
Page 180.
Roseann Reffner - Cross
A. Louise Tatum.
Q. And it's signed by whom?
A. It is signed by Veronica Jones, a/k/a Louise Tatum.
Q. Yes. The Social And Legal History Concerning The Probationer, under
whose name is that?
A. Louise Tatum.
Q. No reference there to Veronica Jones, is there?
A. Not on that page.
Q. The Probation Department Face Sheet, is that listed to Louise Tatum,
a/k/a Veronica Jones?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, on this one, what is the place of birth?
A. On what? I don't know what you're looking at.
Q. I'm sorry, the Probation Department Face Sheet.
A. Place of birth is Richland, Virginia. Could be a typo for Richmond,
I'm not...
Q. Yes, it reads Richland?
A. Correct.
Q. Could be Richmond?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, is there Louise Tatum's, a/k/a Veronica Jones' father
listed?
Page 181.
Roseann Reffner - Cross
A. Yes.
Q. Under what name?
A. Clark Gray.
Q. And is the mother listed?
A. Correct.
Q. Under what name?
A. Shirley Wilson.
Q. Shirley Wilson?
A. Correct.
Q. And, Miss, to your knowledge, in all these records,
Veronica Jones never uses the same last name as her mother?
A. I don't know. I did not go completely through this file, I don't
know what's in all of the documents.
Q. Right. Just dealing with the parts you looked at.
A. Right.
Q. You never saw her anywhere listed under the same name as her mother,
which is Wilson?
A. No.
Q. And is her mother's address listed?
A. Yes.
Q. And where is it listed as?
A. 812 Kingshow, Lindenwold, New Jersey.
Page 182.
Roseann Reffner - Cross
Q. So her mother's address is not listed as Camden, is it?
A. No.
Q. Now, there is something called an Initial Interview?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that an initial interview by the Probation people, so far as you
know?
A. By the probation officer.
Q. And is that dated?
A. 7-18-88.
Q. And here again the mother's name is listed as Wilson, is it not?
A. Yes.
Q. And Lindenwold, New Jersey?
A. Correct.
Q. Now just going back to where we began so that we're
clear. Hypothetically, if a private investigator showed up at the Parole
Department or the Probation Department office where these files are
maintained, and showed his or her identification, would these files be
turned over to that individual?
A. No.
Q. And the only way would be through a properly issued subpoena, but
you don't know how to your
Page 183.
Roseann Reffner - Cross
knowledge one is properly issued?
A. Either a subpoena or an authorization to release
records from the individual, or the individual can ask for them himself
with the right identification.
Q. Right, it would have to be the individual?
A. Correct, or an authorization to release the records from that
individual.
Q. From that individual?
A. Correct.
Q. But if someone didn't have Veronica Jones, the only
way he would get it was through a properly issued subpoena?
A. Correct.
Q. Right. And if someone got these records, now, to your
reading of them -- and I think we've gone through most of the pages --
they would see three or four names of a Veronica Jones, three or four
addresses, the fact that her mother is under a different name than she
uses, and that her mother lived in Lindenwold; is that correct?
A. Correct.
MR. WEINGLASS: Thank you. Okay, fine. Thank you, Miss.
I have nothing further.
Page 184.
Roseann Reffner - Redirect
MS. FISK: Could I have the Exhibit back.
- - - - -
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
- - - - -
BY MS. FISK:
Q. Since we are so thoroughly going through this
document, ma'am, just in a second, am I correct that when the Probation
Department creates its record, they place it under the official caption of
the case?
A. Yes.
Q. That is the probation file?
A. That is correct.
Q. In this case the case in which Miss Jones had been
found guilty was entitled or captioned Commonwealth versus Louise
Tatum?
A. Correct.
Q. And for that reason all of the documents bear that
official Court name, that case and term number of that conviction; is that
correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Is it otherwise clear to you, however, that the
probationer utilized in daily events the name of Veronica Jones?
A. Yes.
Page 185.
Roseann Reffner - Redirect
Q. And that on every occasion that she signed any
document or was asked to give her name to a probation officer, that the
name that she provided was Veronica Jones?
A. Right.
Q. And that the name Louise Tatum is being used because
the official conviction, the conviction for which she was on probation,
was under that name Louise Tatum?
A. That is correct.
Q. Is it also clear to you, ma'am, based on an
Out-Of-Town Services Room 509 Agreement To Return, that Miss Jones, on
July 18th, 1988, signed a document agreeing that as of that date, July
1988, that she was going to be residing at an address which is
specifically typed in in Camden, New Jersey during the term of her
two-year probation which was beginning on that date in 1988?
A. That's correct.
Q. And that address given by her in Camden, New Jersey
and signed by her as Veronica Jones, also known as Louise Tatum appears in
this document?
A. Correct.
Q. And is there in fact within this file requests from the Department,
the Philadelphia Adult Probation
Page 186.
Roseann Reffner - Redirect
Department to transfer this probation to Camden, New
Jersey, specifically because that is where the probationer has expressed
her intent to live during the terms of her probation as reflected in these
files?
A. Yes.
Q. Do we also have in this file on her Initial Interview
record an indication of the names and ages of Miss Jones' children?
A. Yes.
Q. Specifically as of the date of the document, that
being July 18th, 1988, the names and the then current ages of her three
daughters are given on that document?
A. Correct.
Q. And does that same document, the initial interview,
show that Miss Jones resides at a specific address in Camden, New
Jersey?
A. Yes.
Q. Now with a telephone number?
A. Yes.
Q. With a previous address in Camden, New Jersey?
A. Yes.
Q. And with her mother's address, who is also named, in Lindenwold, New
Jersey?
Page 187.
Roseann Reffner - Redirect
A. Yes.
Q. Does the second page of that document, ma'am, provide
us with the name of the high school where Miss Jones attended?
A. Yes.
Q. Does it provide an employment history for Miss Jones,
that is where she works, the phone number of that employer, the position
she held, the amount of money she was paid, and her previous employer and
the period she worked for that previous employer?
A. Yes.
Q. Does the same document -- and I am now in the middle
of page 2 of that initial interview which occurred in 1988 -- reflect that
Miss Jones while a resident of Camden was then currently receiving public
assistance and in fact the amount that she was receiving is listed?
A. Yes.
Q. And is the case number under which she received public
assistance in Camden, New Jersey reflected on that form?
A. Yes.
MS. FISK: Thank you, ma'am.
I have nothing further, Your Honor.
Page 188.
Roseann Reffner - Recross
- - - - -
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
- - - - -
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. With respect to the question just asked of you --
MR. WEINGLASS: If I may have a copy of C-3.
MS. FISK: May I pass it back, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sure.
MS. FISK: Thank you, sir (handing).
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. With respect to the information contained in C-3, a
lot of it is provided by the probationer; is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. You don't know if it's true or not?
A. No.
Q. So in response to all the questions about high school
and previous employment, you don't know if that's true information?
A. I don't know.
Q. As a matter of fact, in your experience, Miss Reffner,
someone with a criminal history of Veronica Jones might not provide true
information?
Page 189.
Roseann Reffner - Recross
MS. FISK: Oh, my goodness, is Mr. Weinglass suggesting
that perhaps we shouldn't believe Miss Jones' testimony given in this
hearing?
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Would you answer the question?
MS. FISK: I object.
MR. WEINGLASS: What is the form of that objection?
THE COURT: I don't know, what are you asking me for?
MR. WEINGLASS: Is the Court going to rule on that?
THE COURT: If she tells me what her objection is and why you think you
can.
MR. WEINGLASS: She hasn't told any of us the basis for the
objection.
MS. FISK: Your Honor, Counsel has asked the witness
whether in her opinion persons with criminal records might give false
information. To that I object.
THE COURT: Well, evidently the defense witness did exactly that.
MR. WEINGLASS: When she testified in '82.
Page 190.
Roseann Reffner - Recross
THE COURT: Well, when she testified here.
MS. FISK: At some point she admitted that she did.
THE COURT: She gave this information to the Probation Department. And
if that's wrong, that's your witness.
MS. FISK: My objection, Your Honor, is to asking this
witness as the custodian of records to give an opinion as to whether
persons would give false information.
THE COURT: I keep telling you she is the custodian of
records. She didn't make this record, she didn't talk to you about this,
she just keeps these records. And when they are subpoenaed she comes in
and says here's the records.
MR. WEINGLASS: Right. But she also indicated because she
was questioned extensively that she's familiar with how this information
is generated.
THE COURT: Well, it should be generated through the probation officer
who is handling the case.
MR. WEINGLASS: Right, and frequently
Page 191.
Roseann Reffner - Recross
she's found out in her experience that the information provided by the
probationers is not true.
THE COURT: Well.
MS. FISK: And it is to that question that I object, Your
Honor. The fact that Counsel never even looked at this information is the
point that I am trying to make.
MR. WEINGLASS: Counsel couldn't get it. The witness said --
THE COURT: You could get it.
MS. FISK: They subpoenaed every other document under the sun, Your
Honor.
THE COURT: You could get it very easily. And if nobody
gives it to you you go to the President Judge, you can to the
Administrative Judge, or you go to the Judge who put her on probation. Any
one of those can authorize you getting the records. Very easy.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Could you answer the question that was pending?
THE COURT: Well, she objected. I will sustain the
objection. You are asking for her opinion. She is not here as an
expert
Page 192.
Roseann Reffner - Recross
witness. She is here as the custodian of records. That's all. And the
records speak for themselves.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Would law enforcement agencies have access to this information
that's in this record?
A. Yes.
Q. They could get it at any time?
A. Yes.
Q. So the Camden police could get it at any time?
A. Yes.
Q. To your knowledge did they ever request this information in the last
two years?
A. Not that I know of. If there would be something in the file.
THE COURT: They sent the case over there.
MR. WEINGLASS: I have no further questions.
MS. FISK: I have no further questions.
THE COURT: They sent the case over there.
MR. WEINGLASS: Pardon?
THE COURT: They sent the case over to
Page 193.
Camden so they would have this information.
MS. FISK: Woodbury sent the bench warrant.
THE COURT: I am not talking about the bench warrant. He is talking
about these records.
MS. FISK: Or the probation.
THE COURT: He is talking about these records, whether they would be
able to get them. They got them.
MS. FISK: Your Honor, would the Court permit the witness to retain the
original and allow the photocopy --
THE COURT: Oh, sure. She has to keep the original.
MS. FISK: Thank you, ma'am.
Your Honor, the Commonwealth next calls Mr. William Thomas.
- - - - -
William Thomas, having been duly sworn,
was examined
and testified as follows:
- - - - -
MR. WEINGLASS: Your Honor, the defense objects to Mr.
Thomas as a witness. He violated the sequestration order of this
Court,
Page 194.
which was invoked pursuant to the request of the
Assistant District Attorney, by being present in Court during the
testimony of other witnesses.
MS. FISK: Which other witnesses?
MR. WEINGLASS: I believe he was present this morning.
MS. FISK: He was not. He was on call and he came this
afternoon at 1:30. And if you would like to ask Mr. Thomas that prior to
his testifying, you can. I reached him at work during the luncheon
recess.
THE COURT: Well.
MR. WEINGLASS: If the witness could be asked.
THE COURT: Well, ask him.
BY MS. FISK:
Q. Mr. Thomas, were you here this morning?
A. No, sir, I was not.
Q. Have you been inside this Courtroom during any
testimony whatsoever during the pendency of this hearing, sir?
A. No, sir, I have not.
MS. FISK: May I proceed, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Are you satisfied? Are you withdrawing your request?
Page 195.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. You were present, though, in Court this morning?
THE COURT: He told you no.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. No, were you present inside the well of the Court this morning?
A. No, sir, I was at my job and I performed my duties
until I was called at 1:30. I was eating my lunch and I came down here, I
changed clothes and came down here.
Q. And the first time you arrived at the building?
A. The first time I arrived at the building was about 20 minutes ago,
sir.
THE COURT: Well, that's another one down the drain.
Go ahead.
- - - - -
DIRECT EXAMINATION
- - - - -
BY MS. FISK:
Q. Mr. Thomas, you were formerly a Homicide detective
assigned to the investigation of the murder of Police Officer Daniel
Faulkner?
Page 196.
William Thomas - Direct
A. Yes, sir, at that time I was Detective and my Badge number then was
744.
Q. Mr. Thomas, the defense in this case, or the
Petitioner, that is Mr. Jamal, in the Petitioner's status report and
renewed motions for recusal and for discovery and Brady disclosures,
reveal on page 8, footnote 2, that although you, Detective Thomas,
apparently was not one of the two detectives who threatened Jones, that is
Veronica Jones, at the jail given his central role in the prosecution, he
would almost certainly have been aware of their activity.
May I ask you, therefore, sir, since apparently based on
the defense representation you have been aware of something had it
occurred, did any police officers go to the prison in an attempt to
threaten Jones at the jail?
A. Not with my knowledge.
Q. Thank you.
A. And not with my direction.
MS. FISK: Thank you, sir.
I have nothing further of Mr. Thomas.
- - - - -
CROSS-EXAMINATION
- - - - -
Page 197.
William Thomas - Cross
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Well, Detective, first of all, good afternoon, Detective Thomas.
A. Hmm-hmm.
Q. So I take it that this could have occurred but you would be unaware
of it?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Well, you just testified that you're unaware of any
such intimidation of Veronica Jones; isn't that right?
A. She asked me a question and I answered it.
Q. Exactly, that you are unaware of any intimidation of Veronica
Jones?
A. That is correct.
Q. So if it occurred you wouldn't be aware of it?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Counselor, that's not the proper way to ask
questions. It is the kind of question that nobody can answer. He says he
is not aware of any.
MR. WILLIAMS: Right. THE COURT: Now, if you have some witnesses that
could prove that he was aware of it, fine, produce them.
Page 198.
William Thomas - Cross
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. When you were working on this case you were supervised
by a Sergeant Herbert Gibbons and a Lieutenant McGowan; isn't that
true?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. That is beyond the scope
of direct examination which was limited very expressly to the sentence
placed by defense Counsel in their Petition. That is beyond the scope.
MR. WILLIAMS: I am going to establish who would have intimidated Miss
Veronica Jones.
MS. FISK: Ahh. Your Honor --
THE COURT: Does he know?
MS. FISK: May I note that it was Counsel who placed in
their footnote that it would be this individual, Detective Thomas, Mr.
Thomas, who would almost certainly have been aware of the activity which
Miss Jones alleged occurred. He has been called for one reason and one
reason only: To refute the statement that defense themselves made
regarding his awareness. He has testified he is unaware of any such
activity. That was the entirety of direct examination and asking about his
supervisors is beyond the scope of that.
Page 199.
William Thomas - Cross
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, I will adopt him as our witness, Your Honor.
THE COURT: No, you can't, not now. She put him on as her witness.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, I can adopt him as my witness.
THE COURT: You would like to adopt him.
Do you want to be adopted by him?
THE WITNESS: How much money does he have?
THE COURT: You want to be adopted by this attorney?
He doesn't want to be adopted by you.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Leave that. If you have evidence of this bring it in through
whatever evidence you have.
MR. WILLIAMS: I will do it through this witness.
THE COURT: No, you can't: He doesn't know anything about it, period. He
said it.
MR. WILLIAMS: You haven't permitted me to cross-examine him.
THE COURT: But he already said not
Page 200.
William Thomas - Cross
that he knows. He doesn't know --
MR. WILLIAMS: We just accept the direct testimony, we don't need
cross-examination.
THE COURT: Look, you accused him in your Petition of
something. She brought him in to disprove that and he comes in and he says
I don't know anything about that.
MR. WILLIAMS: It is on --
THE COURT: Now, where did you get the information that he would know
something about that?
MR. WILLIAMS: I am not entitled to cross-examine him?
THE COURT: I said where did you get the information that he would know
something about it?
MR. WILLIAMS: Based upon his status in the investigation.
THE COURT: Well, he told you his status and he doesn't know anything
about it, period.
MS. FISK: That's why I want to cross-examine him.
THE COURT: Well, do you want to bring
Page 201.
William Thomas - Cross
these other witnesses in? Bring them in. Why don't you bring them
in?
MR. WILLIAMS: I just want to cross-examine a witness that the
Commonwealth brought in.
THE COURT: It is a fishing expedition with you.
MR. WILLIAMS: Not at all.
THE COURT: Oh, yes it is. If it is not a fishing expedition what is the
value of it?
MR. WILLIAMS: How do you know if it is a fishing expedition?
THE COURT: Because that's what you are asking. You are
asking him to say who were the other investigators.
MR. WILLIAMS: Is Your Honor denying me my right to cross-examine?
THE COURT: I am not denying your right to cross examine but only what
he knows.
MR. WILLIAMS: I am inquiring.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Do you know whether you were supervised by a Sergeant Herbert
Gibbons and a Lieutenant McGowan?
A. Do I know if I was supervised by Herbert
Page 202.
William Thomas - Cross
Gibbons and Lieutenant McGowan?
Q. On this particular case.
A. They were my supervisors for my particular squad but,
you know, in any case you have supervisors all the way up to the
Commissioner.
Q. I understand that. Were they your supervisors on this particular
case?
A. They were my immediate supervisors at that time, I believe.
Q. And these supervisors had a better grasp of the
overview of this investigation than you did; isn't that right?
THE COURT: Why didn't you subpoena them?
MR. WILLIAMS: I am just asking him.
THE COURT: What do you expect him to say? They are his supervisors.
MR. WILLIAMS: Did they have a better grasp of the overview of his
investigation.
THE COURT: He can't answer for them.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, he did at the hearing last summer. I have it
here.
THE COURT: Well, that was last summer. This is now.
MR. WILLIAMS: Right, so I am just
Page 203.
William Thomas - Cross
getting --
THE COURT: You should have asked him those questions last
summer, not now. He said they are his supervisors. And if you want to
bring those supervisors in, bring them in. He can't answer for them. He
can only answer for himself.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Did you examine the police report from supervisor Gibbons in
connection with this case?
A. Did I examine what?
Q. Any reports from supervisor Gibbons.
THE COURT: You mean that was his job?
MR. WILLIAMS: I am asking. Well --
THE COURT: But he works under these people. You mean if
someone works under me, he could supervise me or tell you what I'm
doing?
MR. WILLIAMS: He could answer the question. If he didn't he didn't. I'm
asking him.
THE WITNESS: I don't understand the question, Counselor.
You know, maybe if you repeat it or you change the words around.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Did you examine any reports authored or
Page 204.
William Thomas - Cross
prepared by your supervisor Sergeant Gibbons?
A. Usually it's my supervisor that looks over my reports, not me
looking over my supervisor's reports.
Q. So the answer is no?
THE COURT: Sure. He told you.
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, I would just like to get a yes or no. If he
didn't he didn't. If he did he did.
THE WITNESS: If you have a particular report that you want to show me
and ask me.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Did you examine a report by Sergeant Gibbons? If the answer is no
that's fine.
A. No, not that I recall, no.
Q. Now, isn't it a fact that some individuals who were
witnesses to this incident were interviewed on more than one occasion?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained. Now you're going way, way afar. He wasn't brought
in here for that purpose.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Was it your job to determine whether a witness was to be re
interviewed in connection with this case?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor.
Page 205.
William Thomas - Cross
THE COURT: Sustained. He is not the supervisor here, he had his own
supervisors.
MS. FISK: It is also beyond the scope of the direct examination.
MR. WILLIAMS: So I take it his supervisors would be authorized --
THE COURT: I don't know what they did. If you think it's important
subpoena them.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. So let me put it this way, then. You don't know
whether your supervisors authorized an interview and interrogation of
Veronica Jones within weeks of her testifying at the trial of this
matter?
MS. FISK: He also doesn't know whether Martians have
landed from Mars yet, Your Honor. That is also beyond the scope of direct
examination.
THE COURT: Sustained, sustained.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. So you can't come in to categorically deny that the
interrogation that Miss Jones testified to in this proceeding occurred or
did not occur, you can't testify about that, can you?
MS. FISK: Because it is impossible to prove that something that didn't
happen didn't
Page 206.
William Thomas - Cross
happen. He is responding to the charges that the defense have made in
their Petition, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes, he is trying to prove a negative.
MS. FISK: Precisely.
THE COURT: You could never do that.
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
THE COURT: Counselor, he is only here for one thing, what
he did. If you have somebody else in mind you subpoena them.
(Discussion held off the record at this time.)
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Now when witnesses were brought to Court for Mr.
Jamal's trial they were brought in by the D.A.'s Office through D.A.
detectives; is that right?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor: Beyond the scope of direct
examination.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. You can't tell us here under oath whether detectives
from the District Attorney's Office visited Miss Jones, can you?
MS. FISK: I object to that question,
Page 207.
William Thomas - Cross
Your Honor, in its form. It is beyond the scope of direct
examination.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. You can't testify under oath whether detectives from
the District Attorney's Office visited Miss Jones before she testified in
1982, can you?
MS. FISK: Your Honor, he is limited by his knowledge of the case as the
assigned detective.
MR. WILLIAMS: If he doesn't know he doesn't know.
MS. FISK: I object to the form of the question.
MR. WILLIAMS: Sure, she is afraid of the answer.
THE COURT: No --
MS. FISK: I know the answer. He could only say what he knows. He has
testified to that.
THE COURT: Now, if you want to bring in the D.A.'s detectives,
fine.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, if they want to provide the names of the D.A.
detectives who
Page 208.
William Thomas - Cross
visited Miss Jones --
MS. FISK: There were none. Listen, it is easy to
understand: No one visited the woman in prison. No one threatened the
woman in prison. Nobody cared what the woman was saying. There were
none.
MR. WILLIAMS: Let's put Miss Fisk under oath now and I will
cross-examine her.
MR. BURNS: Your Honor, if defense Counsel can't think of
any questions to ask the witness that are not far beyond the scope of
direct examination that is unfortunate, but that does not give them
license to ask questions that are beyond the scope of direct
examination.
THE COURT: Counselor, you know, you go to the prison, find out who
visited.
MR. WEINGLASS: I think the record should reveal that Ms.
Fisk was screaming here in her last comment without response from the
Court.
THE COURT: You were screaming too.
MR. WEINGLASS: No, I haven't raised my voice.
THE COURT: He was screaming too.
MR. WEINGLASS: I haven't raised my
Page 209.
William Thomas - Cross
voice.
THE COURT: Oh, no, you never raise your voice.
MR. WEINGLASS: Only in an attempt to be heard.
THE COURT: Of course not. I wouldn't even think of
accusing you of raising your voice. Why that's facetious. Oh, my God, you
wouldn't do that.
But unless you have some relevant questions he is limited to what he
just said, that's it.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Miss Jones was brought in to testify at the trial of
this matter through the District Attorney's Office; isn't that right?
A. I have no idea, Counselor. I have no idea.
Q. Do you recall testifying back on June 29th, 1982?
Counsel, page 86 going onto page 87.
Question, question of you: Did you not arrange at my
request that Miss Jones be present today if Counsel wished to talk to her
or whatever he wishes to do.
Your answer: Yes, before coming to
Page 210.
William Thomas - Cross
Court I did arrange that.
Do you recall that?
A. It's the first time I heard that and I have never read
the transcript of the trial. So if that's what I said at that time, you
know, this is 16 years later, I have no recollection of it.
Q. So you don't recall whether you in fact had any involvement in
bringing Miss Jones into Court?
A. I believe if you read the statement I believe it said
I took care of that matter. It does not mean that I had to do it
personally.
Q. But you don't recall having done that?
A. Having done what?
Q Having brought Miss Jones in to testify. Or even arranging to have
Miss Jones brought in to testify?
A. I don't, I don't recall arranging or bringing her in,
I don't recall that. Wait a minute. I know that, I don't believe that I
brought her in, if that was Miss Jones that was here yesterday and all,
then I don't recall bringing her in. I don't remember that face, anyway,
and all. And I would have to just yield to what I testified at that time
as being the facts of the case.
Q. So if she was brought in by law enforcement
Page 211.
William Thomas - Cross
authorities it would have been other authorities, other personnel?
A. I don't recall at this juncture myself bringing her in. But I may
have. I can't say. I don't think I did.
(Discussion held off the record at this time.)
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. So let me see if I understand you correctly, sir. You said you
didn't recognize Veronica Jones yesterday?
A. Correct.
Q. So you were here in Court yesterday?
A. No, sir.
Q. Where did you see her?
A. If, there was a lady that came in and sat beside you
in that second row back there, before we were -- if you remember, I was
sitting right here (indicating).
MS. FISK: Indicating the jury box, Your Honor.
THE WITNESS: I was sitting in the jury box.and they asked
for sequestration. There was one lady, a black female, that did come in
and sat in that back row behind
Page 212.
William Thomas - Cross
Mr. Jamal, and I believe it was next to you and all now.
If that was Mrs. Jones. I didn't read the newspaper accounts today or
anything. I had a paper but I didn't read it for this particular
reason.
(Discussion was held off the record at this time.)
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Are you saying that you don't recall ever seeing Miss Jones?
A. Counselor, 16 years ago and the number of cases that
I've handled over the years, not just this case but the cases and all,
witnesses, you know, I don't remember all the witnesses that I may have
interviewed or all of the witnesses, even the statements that I have taken
and all, I can't remember. Like I say, what I testified at that time is
what I knew to be the truth. And that's what I testified then, that's what
I am trying to do now.
Q. So I take it that you can't recall whether you may
have authorized someone to visit Miss Jones before she testified?
THE COURT: Counselor, he said whatever he said then is what he said,
period.
MR. WILLIAMS: But I am asking him now
Page 213.
William Thomas - Cross
whether as he sits here can he recall whether he
authorized or ordered anyone to visit Miss Jones weeks before she
testified.
THE COURT: I thought he said that in 16 years he can't remember
anything.
MR. WILLIAMS: Precisely.
THE COURT: Counselor, which is true.
MR. WILLIAMS: No further questions. He can't recall.
THE COURT: How many cases have I had. I can't remember them all.
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, I am satisfied. He can't recall.
THE COURT: But he could recall whatever he said today.
MR. WILLIAMS: He just said he can't recall and Your Honor
recollects that also. He just said he can't recall 16 years ago.
THE COURT: Specific things that you're asking about that he said.
MR. WILLIAMS: No.
THE COURT: He said whatever he said then he said.
MS. FISK: What Counsel is asking I would have no objection to the
witness being
Page 214.
William Thomas - Cross
permitted to answer the question. Counsel is asking him
now whether he recalls sending people out to intimidate Miss Jones
then.
THE COURT: Okay.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Can you recall as you sit here today whether you directed anyone to
visit Miss Jones before she testified?
A. Counselor, I am a detective. I don't send anyone
anywhere or order anyone to do anything and all that. I only do my
job.
Q. But you can't even recall whether you assisted in
bringing Miss Jones into Court 16 years ago, can you?
A. No, I don't. But I --
Q. If you were assisting to arrange Miss Jones be brought
into Court and if you didn't do it personally that would involve asking
somebody to go out and get Miss Jones; isn't that right?
A. It could, yes.
MR. WILLIAMS: No further questions.
- - - - -
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
- - - - -
BY MS. FISK:
Page 215.
William Thomas - Redirect
Q. Mr. Thomas, when an individual, after 30 years of
being a detective in Philadelphia, when an individual was in custody in
the Philadelphia County Prison System and was needed to appear as a
witness in a Court, would it be standard practice for the detective
assigned, or anyone involved but in particular for the detective assigned,
to request that the witness be brought down to the courtroom?
A. That is correct, a bringdown form is made up. But it's
not done by usually the Philadelphia Police detectives, we don't handle
that.
Q. Can a detective simply ask a clerk in the courtroom to prepare a
bringdown?
A. I don't recall myself ever doing it at all.
Q. I understand that. When a bringdown of a witness is
requested, who brings down the witness to the Courtroom?
A. The Sheriffs Department.
Q. And is that the Sheriffs van, does that go from the prison to the
cell room which was then in City Hall?
A. That's correct.
Q. Mr. Thomas, do you ever, did you ever -- let me
restate that. You told us that you do not have specific recollection of
many things in many of your
Page 216.
William Thomas - Redirect
cases. Would you expect that if you had sent two police
officers, or had been told two police officers went to a prison to
threaten a witness prior to trial, that that would be an incident about
which you would retain a memory?
A. I would retain memory, but I would never do anything like that.
Q. And in addition to not doing it in this case, were you ever aware
that it was ever done in this case?
A. No.
MS. FISK: Thank you, sir.
- - - - -
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
- - - - -
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Now let me follow up on the practice that you just
talked about. Isn't it a fact that when witnesses are brought in through
the District Attorney's Office they are brought in through District
Attorney detectives?
MS. FISK: Well, Judge, my objection to the question is
that it is a question without a foundation. There is no indication that
the witness was brought in through the District
Page 217.
William Thomas - Recross
Attorney's Office. There is an indication in the record
that the witness was brought to the Courtroom and there is no indication
that it was done by any way other than the standard way, that is via a
bringdown.
THE COURT: If she was in custody the Sheriff would have
brought her down. That is the normal procedure in this Courtroom. In any
courtroom in Philadelphia.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Did you know whether Miss Jones was in custody at the time of the
trial?
A. I don't recall at this juncture where Miss Jones was, no.
Q. And you don't recall whether D.A. detectives were used
to bring her into the Courtroom, into the Court building, do you?
A. No, sir, I wouldn't, I wouldn't know how she got in, no, sir. I have
no personal knowledge of it.
Q. And if detectives, either from the D.A.'s Office or
within the Police Department, engaged in illegal activity, would you
expect them to report that to you?
MS. FISK: Judge, it is the defense who expected him to report it to
them,
Page 218.
William Thomas - Recross
apparently. I am the one who is quoting from their
document filed with this Court. That is a ridiculous question, I
object.
THE COURT: I will sustain the objection.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, the suggestion that the law
enforcement would publicize their illegal activities is what is
ridiculous.
THE COURT: You are presupposing facts that you haven't
proven. You are saying that they are doing something illegal. Where is the
evidence that they did? Why don't you check and find out if the Sheriff
brought her in?
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor is presupposing.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Let me just make sure I understand you correctly.
THE COURT: No, I am not presupposing. What I am telling
you is what I know of my own personal knowledge sitting in this Courtroom
and trying cases. When a witness is in custody they are usually brought
down by the Sheriff because the Sheriff is the one that goes there, picks
up the witness, bring them to City Hall.
Page 219.
William Thomas - Recross
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, but, Your Honor, if I may, Mr. Thomas
testified last summer that, and I quote, but as far as availability, I
give the witness to the D.A.'s Office. The D.A. has D.A. detectives to
serve the subpoenas and get their witnesses in.
THE COURT: That's when witnesses are not in custody.
That's when they are out on the street. The D.A. detectives serve the
subpoena and sees that they come in.
MR. WILLIAMS: The point is there are D.A. detectives who have --
THE COURT: Not when they are in custody. Counselor --
MR. WILLIAMS: Are you suggesting that D.A. detectives are not
authorized to enter into a prison facility?
THE COURT: Not without a Judge's permission. And I could
tell you I never gave any permission to bring anybody in. The Sheriff
always brings them in.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, I think we really ought to have testimony from the
witness stand regarding your remark.
THE COURT: Counselor, you should have
Page 220.
William Thomas - Recross
researched this first. Don't ask him, he is out of the
business for quite a while now. Why don't you ask somebody that is still
in the business that knows how they operate. Call the Sheriffs.
(Discussion was held off the record at this time.)
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Is there a mechanism to determine whether a potential witness is in
fact in custody?
A. Is there a mechanism?
Q. Yes.
THE COURT: Sure.
THE WITNESS: From my general knowledge and everything,
you can call up any State institution, they can put a name in the computer
and they can tell you if they are in any State institution around the
State of Pennsylvania. You can call the State in Pittsburgh and ask them
for somebody that's in Philadelphia. But, you know, I don't know whether
that was in effect when this trial went on or not. But I know what it is
today.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. But you don 't know whether Miss Jones was in
Page 221.
William Thomas - Recross
fact in custody back in 1982, you don't know that?
A. I don't recall it, no.
Q. And if a defense, an individual who the defense wants
to call as a witness is in custody in Pennsylvania, do you know the
procedure by which that defense attorney can have that witness in custody
produced for the trial?
A. You mean then or now?
Q. In 1982, the relevant period that we are discussing.
A. I have no idea exactly how the defense operates. I've
always been on the prosecution side so I really couldn't tell you.
THE COURT: Counselor, why don't you ask me that question, I will tell
you. I was the Undersheriff.
MR. WILLIAMS: I have a witness on the stand, that's --
THE COURT: He doesn't know how that's done. I could tell
you how it's done. You get a writ of habeas corpus and you give it to the
Sheriff and they bring them in.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. If the defense counsel asked the prosecution to assist in bringing a
witness in who is
Page 222.
William Thomas - Recross
incarcerated, do you know what procedure is used by the
District Attorney's Office to bring that individual in for the trial?
A. No, sir, I am a Philadelphia Police detective at that
time, I wouldn't know exactly how the D.A.'s Office, I wouldn't want to
sit in and testify as to how the D.A.'s Office runs.
Q. Have you ever brought in a witness at the defense request?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: What do you mean did he ever bring in?
MR. WILLIAMS: Let me be a little more precise.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Have you ever brought in a witness who is incarcerated
at the defense request so that witness could testify at a trial?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: No, I will let him answer.
THE WITNESS: No, sir.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Have you ever arranged for such an individual to be brought in for
the trial?
A. When you say arranged and all, in other words,
Page 223.
William Thomas - Recross
I go directly to the prison and contact them, no. I couldn't do
that.
Q. Well, when you testified in 1982 and you said that you did arrange
that, that is --
A. Right.
Q. -- that is the production of Veronica Jones for the trial --
A. Right.
Q. -- what did you mean?
A. In other words, I would contact the pertinent people
whose responsibility with the D.A.'s Office it would be to see that the
bringdowns are done and all and it's up to them to get it done. If they
got it done and say okay it's been done, the bringdown's been made,
whatever, you know, let Mr. McGill know that the bringdowns been made or
whatever. So that would be someone from the D.A. 's Office that actually
does most of the work on that.
(Discussion was held off the record at this time.)
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Now, is it my understanding, sir, that if in fact you
were aware of police intimidation of Veronica Jones in the nature of which
she testified yesterday, that you would now under oath tell this
Page 224.
William Thomas - Recross
Court that such activity occurred?
A. Counselor, I think I earlier told you I didn't read
the newspapers today on this matter. I have a newspaper back there but I
didn't read it so I have no idea what she testified to.
Q. All right, let me just ask it this way, then. Are you
telling this Court that if you had knowledge of illegal police activity
concerning a defense witness in regards to this case, that you would
inform this Court about that illegal police activity?
A. Sir, if I knew anything that was illegal, whether it
was this case or another incident that happened down the corner, or
someone getting robbed over there, the pertinent people, police or
whatever it would be, would have been notified by me.
Q. You would have notified somebody?
A. That is correct.
Q. Have you ever heard of the term the blue wall of silence or the code
of silence?
THE COURT: Come on.
MS. FISK: Judge.
THE COURT: Come on. Now you are really digging into the
lowest depths of possibility. Let's not besmirch the entire Police
Department. A few men maybe went sour,
Page 225.
William Thomas - Recross
but that doesn't mean everybody in the Police Department went sour.
MR. WILLIAMS: I am not suggesting that. I am just suggesting that a few
men went sour in this case.
THE COURT: It is just the same thing when some lawyers do
something wrong. Do we condemn the entire Police Department?
MR. WILLIAMS: I am not suggesting we condemn the entire Police
Department.
THE COURT: The terminology you use is doing exactly that.
And I object to you using that kind of a phrase. He told you if he knew of
it he would report it.
MR. WILLIAMS: I have no further questions.
MS. FISK: I have nothing further. The Commonwealth calls Mister --
THE COURT: Thank you.
THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honor.
MS. FISK: Mr. Bennett, please.
- - - - -
Daniel Bennett, having been duly
sworn, was examined
and testified as follows:
- - - - -
Page 226.
Daniel Bennett - Direct
DIRECT EXAMINATION
- - - - -
BY MS. FISK:
Q. Mr. Bennett, you are a former homicide detective, sir?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. When did you retire from the Philadelphia Police Department?
A. December 20th, 1993.
Q. After how many years of service?
A. Over 31.
Q. Were you a homicide detective in December 1981?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And in that capacity did you conduct an interview with Veronica
Jones?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. By whom were you accompanied when you conducted an interview with
Veronica Jones?
A. Detective Roger Harmon.
Q. Was there any other police personnel with you when you and Detective
Harmon interviewed Miss Jones?
A. There was a police officer from Camden with us too.
Q. Any other police personnel?
Page 227.
Daniel Bennett - Direct
A. No, that's all I remember.
Q. Other than yourself, Detective Harmon, the Camden
police officer and Miss Jones, were there any other persons present when
you interviewed Miss Jones?
A. That's all I remember being there.
Q. Was Miss Jones' mother there, if you recall?
A. It was her mother's house but I am not sure. She
wasn't there at the time of the interview; she may have been in another
room or something.
Q. Where was her mother's house that the interview took place in?
A. That was in Camden, New Jersey.
MS. FISK: I'm sorry, Your Honor, I believe that Miss
Jones' December 1981 statement has previously been marked. Do you have a
copy of that? Has it been previously marked?
THE COURT OFFICER: There was a statement marked D-l.
THE COURT: It was attached to his Petition, or his motion.
MS. FISK: I know it is, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I don't know if it was marked in this particular case.
THE COURT OFFICER: C-l.
Page 228.
Daniel Bennett - Direct
MS. FISK: Can I have that?
THE COURT OFFICER: Yes, you can.
MS. FISK: I knew my copy was missing for a good reason.
THE COURT: You should keep checking.
MS. FISK: I should, yes, thank you, Judge. Could this be shown to the
witness, please (handing).
THE COURT OFFICER: Okay (handing).
BY MS. FISK:
Q. Mr. Bennett, you are being shown Commonwealth Exhibit
1. Is this a copy of a statement that you took from Miss Jones in the
presence of Detective Harmon and the Camden County police officer on
December the 15th, 1981?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Would you explain to us the manner in which this statement was
taken, please?
A. I wrote the statement out myself, I actually printed
it. It was in a question-and-answer form where I would formulate a
question, ask the question, and Veronica Jones would give me an answer
which I wrote down.
Q. Did you write down a summary of her answer?
A. No, it's the whole answer.
Page 229.
Daniel Bennett - Direct
Q. A verbatim account of her answer?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And did that continue for all the various printed pages, that is
pages 1 through 5 of this document?
A. That is correct.
Q. And did you have an opportunity yesterday before the
morning session began to thoroughly review these first five pages of
Commonwealth Exhibit 1?
A. I read the statement, yes.
Q. And having reviewed it, do these pages accurately
reflect word-for-word the questions you asked of Miss Jones and the
answers she gave you in the presence of Detective Harmon on December 15th,
1981?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. Now, the sixth page attached to Commonwealth Exhibit 1
appears to be a diagram with Locust Street running in the middle, 13th
Street at one end and 12th Street at the other end. Do you see that,
sir?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Was that diagram prepared by you or Detective Harmon?
A. Detective Harmon prepared the diagram of the streets.
Page 230.
Daniel Bennett - Direct
Q. Now, the words on, I don't know if I should call it
the bottom or top of that diagram, where you see words that say heard
shots, is that your handwriting?
A. No, it is not.
Q. Do you recognize that as Detective Harmon's handwriting?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Do you know who wrote those words there?
A. I believe and from what I remember that Veronica Jones wrote
those.
Q. How about the word policeman?
A. Also her, also her printing.
Q. How about the rectangle with the four circles with the letters PC
inside it, who put that there?
A. That was drawn by Veronica Jones, yes.
Q. And how about the word man --
A. Also.
Q. -- above?
A. Also by Veronica Jones.
Q. Those were all marks placed by Veronica Jones?
A. That is correct.
Q. Did you place onto, did you place any marks onto this document, this
map?
A. No, I did not.
Page 231.
Daniel Bennett - Direct
Q. Now with regard to the first five pages of this
document: After you asked the questions of Miss Jones and recorded her
answers, did you ask Miss Jones to review the document for accuracy?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And did she do so?
A. She took time and looked at each and every page and at the end of
the page she signed it.
Q. And on how many places did she sign it?
A. She signed all five pages of this statement and she signed the sixth
page which is the diagram.
Q. Was that the only contact you ever had with Miss Jones?
A. To my knowledge, yes.
Q. Did you ever visit her in the prison and threaten her?
A. No, I did not.
MS. FISK: Thank you, sir.
I have no further questions, Your Honor.
(Discussion held off the record at this time.)
- - - - -
CROSS-EXAMINATION
- - - - -
Page 232.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Good afternoon, Officer Bennett.
A. Good afternoon.
Q. Retired Detective Bennett. When did you retire?
A. December of 1993.
Q. So given the fact that this interview was in 1981, you did 12 more
years of service before you retired?
A. That's correct.
Q. And it would be fair to say that you interviewed a
fair number of people in those last 12 years of your service?
A. That is correct.
Q. Could you give us a round figure estimate? I won't hold you to it.
Would it be more than a hundred?
A. Yes, it would.
Q. And you're testifying here today from your recollection of an
interview back in December of 1981?
A. That is correct.
Q. It would be fair to say that your recollection given
the passage of time and the number of interviews you conducted in the
meantime might not be
Page 233.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
totally accurate?
A. That could be, yes.
Q. Right. You would have difficulty in totally swearing
to the accuracy of everything that you did on December 15th, 1981?
A. Everything I did on that day, I couldn't swear to everything I did
that day, no.
Q. Everything you did with respect to this interview?
A. I don't know, because I do remember this interview. I
do remember it because of the circumstances in the case. And over those
years there were not that many police officers killed that I worked
on.
Q. The circumstances that you are referring to is the death of a police
officer?
A. That is correct.
Q. And that, I am sure you work hard on every case but
the death of a police officer personally motivates all police officers a
little more in conducting their work?
A. Only to a certain point.
Q. Yes. And this was one of those cases?
A. Well, I can't say this motivated me really more than any other
cases. I mean I worked on a lot
Page 234.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
of homicides over the years and each one is different.
Q. Right. I don't mean to say you don't work hard on
every homicide. When it involves a fellow officer there is a little
something about that that kind of keys you up?
A. I guess you could say that to a certain point, yes.
Q. So that on this particular evening, December 15th,
1981, when you went to interview Veronica Jones, you wanted to get a
statement from her?
A. When I went there I don't even know if I knew Veronica
was going to be there: We had several addresses on her.
Q. Right.
A. And if she was there, and wanted to talk to us, yes, we were going
to talk to her.
Q. And you wanted to get a statement that was as accurate as
possible?
A. If possible, yes.
Q. And that was as comprehensive and inclusive as possible?
A. If possible, yes.
Q. And in your experience in doing that, when you interview a person
who might have been a witness in a
Page 235.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
homicide, you want to be sure that that person at the
time of the interview is capable of giving you the information that she or
he is conveying?
A. That's correct, yes.
Q. And that involves a value judgment on your part?
A. That's right.
Q. And in your view Veronica Jones was able to give you
information, in other words, you didn't perceive any disability?
A. No, I did not.
Q. In connection with her ability to talk to you and to recall
events?
A. That's correct.
Q. You didn't perceive that she was drunk?
A. No.
Q. On that occasion? And you didn't perceive that she was high on any
drugs?
A. No.
Q. So if she testified at the trial that at the time you
spoke to her that she was high on marijuana, to your view that is probably
unlikely?
A. That is correct.
Q. Because if you saw that she was, you probably at that moment would
not have taken the statement?
Page 236.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
A. That's correct.
Q. So her testimony in 1982, limited to that particular
aspect, if she said she was high on marijuana, that would be false, to
your knowledge?
A. To my knowledge, yes.
Q. And how long do you recall you spent with Veronica Jones?
A. We were probably there an hour, maybe a little over an hour.
Q. And the we is you and another Homicide detective,
Detective Harmon, and a police officer from Camden?
A. Camden, that's correct.
Q. And were the three of you there together at one time with
Veronica?
A. The Camden officer is only there initially with us. He
stayed in the background when the interview was conducted, he didn't take
part in the interview.
Q. Do you recall if the interview occurred in a dining alcove or a
kitchen or a living room?
A. I don't remember for sure what room it was in.
Q. But you were all three together in one area?
A. Yes, sir, that's correct.
Q. And you, I believe you said, were the one who
Page 237.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
was writing what became Commonwealth Exhibit 1, the six pages?
A. That's correct.
Q. And your fellow Officer Harmon, was he writing at all in any other
document?
A. At some point during the interview Detective Harmon was drawing the
diagrams on page 6.
Q. Right. Did he have a black book, I forget the
terminology you use in Philadelphia, where he was making entries during
the time of the interview?
A. Not to my knowledge, no.
Q. Did you write yourself a report independent of this
statement as to your work on the interview of Veronica Jones?
A. No, I don't believe so.
Q. You don't follow any practice going back to December
of '81 where you yourself write a report of an interview of a witness in a
homicide case?
A. No, that wouldn't have been done, no.
Q. Pardon?
A. That would not have been done. It should have been filed with the
other interviews on the case.
Q. I see. So it's your testimony that you didn't write
anything pertaining to the December 15th, '81 interview other than the six
pages that are marked as
Page 238.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
Commonwealth 1?
A. Not that I remember, no.
Q. Were you interviewed by any superior or any person in
connection with this investigation after you returned with the
statement?
A. No, I was not.
Q. What did you do with the statement?
A. It was filed with the other interviews and other paperwork on the
case.
Q. When you say filed, you mean you hand carried it back and you
inserted it into a file?
A. It would have either been done that way or it would
have been given to someone else who had the paperwork at that time and
they would have filed it.
Q. The someone who had the paperwork at that time, would
that be the investigator in charge of the investigation?
A. It could have been any one of a number of people.
Q. And to your knowledge, you didn't report either in
writing or orally to anyone that it was your impression that Veronica
Jones was not answering these questions that you put to her
truthfully?
A. I didn't record anything like that, no.
Q. And let me ask you: Was it your impression
Page 239.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
that she was answering your questions truthfully?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: What is the basis of the objection?
MS. FISK: Is the witness being called for an expert
opinion of whether or not some witness was telling the truth? That is the
purpose of the fact-finder, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WEINGLASS: No, the witness makes an evaluative judgment of whether
or not --
THE COURT: He writes down exactly what the witness says.
Whether it is truthful or a lie, he doesn't know. He is not God. Only God
knows when we're lying.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Do you make a judgment of whether or not you are being given
accurate and truthful information?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. Whether or not he does is not the
issue.
THE COURT: Did he write down exactly what the person said, that is all
I am interested in.
MR. WEINGLASS: I prefer to get that from the witness, with all due
respect to the
Page 240.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
Court.
THE COURT: With all due respect, that is not a question you could ask
him. Rephrase your question.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Detective Bennett, you didn't write down the entire
conversations that took place between you and Veronica Jones on December
15th, 1981, isn't that true?
A. That's true, yes.
Q. And so that when you were there with her for an entire
hour, how much time was spent in writing down the five pages of
handwritten materials that is on C-l?
A. I would just have to guess maybe a half hour, maybe a
little longer, depending on how long it took her to answer the questions
and for me to write down the answers. It could have been a little longer
than a half hour.
Q. Well, in the other half hour, conversation occurred between you and
Veronica Jones; isn't that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And I presume a good part of that conversation deals with the events
of December 9th?
Page 241.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
A. No, that's incorrect.
Q. What did that conversation deal with?
A. Basically it was just here is who we are, are you
Veronica Jones. Hello, introductions, things like that. And then after the
statement was over we just spent a little time sitting there talking and
we left. The only thing that had to do with the events, the events of
December 9th, were recorded.
Q. So as you started to write, is it your testimony as
you started to write this document you had no idea what her answers would
be with respect to what she saw on December 9th until after you started
writing and she verbally gave you the answers?
A. That's correct. I had no way of knowing what she was going to
say.
Q. Right. You didn't ask her Veronica, were you out there that night
even before you started writing?
A. No, I don't think I did. I think she knew that we
were, what we were there for, is the indication I remember getting from
her.
Q. Okay. Now, as a Homicide detective that night, you were asked, of
course, to go out and get the statement?
A. That's correct.
Q. Do you recall who asked you?
Page 242.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
A. No, I don't. Again that could have been any one of a
number of people. I don't know who was working that night.
Q. Well, the occurrence was December 9th. And your appearance at
Veronica's mother's house was December 15th?
A. That is correct.
Q. So it wasn't the night of the occurrence, it wasn't
during the frenetic activity of that night, it was almost a week
later?
A. That is correct.
Q. And you were doing this on your regularly assigned hours?
A. I don't know if it was regularly assigned hours or
whether I was working overtime that day. I don't know what hours I was
working that day.
Q. And who is ordinarily your supervisor at that time?
A. At that time there would have been two, a sergeant and
a lieutenant directly. But if there was other, if there were other people
involved it could have been numerous other lieutenants.
Q. Right, is it sergeant --
A. Sergeant Gibbons would have been the sergeant and I think it was a
Lieutenant McGowan.
Page 243.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
Q. And this was the only work that you did on this case?
A. No, I did other things.
Q. Before?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you talked to other witnesses?
A. I don't know how many other witnesses I talked to. But I do know
that I did other things on this case.
Q. Did you talk to a Dessie Hightower?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Now, this handwriting is your handwriting, is it not?
A. That's correct, it's my printing, yes.
Q. Your printing.
MS. FISK: Is Counsel referring to the first five pages of the
document?
MR. WEINGLASS: Yes, I'm sorry.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. That's clear. The first five pages of handwriting?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. And you record the age of Veronica
Page 244.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
Jones at 20 years?
A. 20 years, yes.
Q. And you recorded her date of birth?
A. That is correct.
Q. And you indicated this interview occurred at 9:45 at night?
A. That's correct.
Q. You hadn't called in advance, you just appeared at the residence;
isn't that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So you appeared unannounced with two other officers,
one being a fellow detective and the other being a police officer of
Camden?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, you asked an open-ended question to begin with:
Would you go on in your own words and tell me what you know about the
shooting death of Officer Daniel Faulkner.
A. That is correct.
Q. And that's an open-ended question?
A. Yes.
Q. And you then recorded for the better part of a full
one page and about a third of another page what she answered?
A. That is correct.
Page 245.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
Q. And is it your testimony now, today, 15 years later, that you put
every word down that she gave you?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you interrupt her or stop her at any point?
A. The only time I would stop her was while I was
formulating the next question and waiting for her to answer.
Q. Do you have any training in speed writing?
A. No, I did not. I have done an awful lot of it, though.
Q. Right, but you're saying that as she was talking you were
writing?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you caught every word?
A. Every word that she said, yes. I mean I may have
missed a small and or it or something like that in here, but.
Q. A few words?
A. But all the main words, all the highlights of what she said are in
here.
Q. But it's true, is it not, Detective, that you can't
say under oath today that you recorded every word that she gave you, you
might have missed a few
Page 246.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
words here and there?
A. That's what I said, some of the small, insignificant-type words I
may have missed.
Q. Okay. Now, she told you where she was standing when she observed the
events that night?
A. That's correct.
Q. But did you ask her what side of the street she was
standing on at the intersection of Locust and 12th in your handwritten
portion?
A. I don't think I asked her that question directly because in her
answer I think I knew where she was standing.
Q. How did you know where she was standing?
MS. FISK: Your Honor, the statement speaks for itself.
THE COURT: Well, he can't find it so he's asking him to find it.
THE WITNESS: She says here in the, on page 1 that she was
walking away from the High Speed Line entrance. And I know where that High
Speed Line entrance is.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Which corner is it on?
A. The southwest. But it's on the 12th Street side. And this is the
area she said she was at.
Page 247.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
Q. You have been to that scene, have you not?
A. I've been to that corner down there a thousand times over the
years.
Q. And you are telling this Court that there is no entrance on the
northwest side of the street?
A. No, I didn't say that.
Q. Is there an entrance on the northwest side?
A. I believe there is one on the northeast corner, I'm
not -- the one that I'm familiar with where she said that she was was the
corner and an area where prostitutes hung at that time. And maybe when she
said that to me, that's what came to my mind.
Q. And you never --
A. There are several High Speed entrances around there at different
corners.
Q. Right, and there is one on the northwest corner?
A. Northwest or northeast, I'm not sure of that.
Q. You don't know?
A. I am familiar with one where the girls used to hang. And again
--
Q. I'm sorry.
A. By her own diagram.
Q. Right. We will get to that in a moment.
Page 248.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
Given the fact that you are placing a witness at a scene
at or almost immediately after the shooting of a police officer, didn't
you think it was important that night to put the precise corner that she
was on at an intersection that has four corners?
A. I don't think by reading this interview that we were
actually placing her on the scene. We were placing her a block away and
around the corner.
Q. Right. But it was important to know which corner. There were four
corners on that intersection. Some --
A. Well, I --
Q. Some corners you can see the scene of the shooting, other corners
you can not?
A. Again, by her own drawing (displaying) we know where she was.
Q. I am forgetting her drawing for a moment.
A. I couldn't forget it that night. I am --
Q. The order in which you proceed is you first took her statement in
handwriting?
A. That is correct.
Q. And after you had it in handwriting then you went to the diagram;
isn't that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Okay. So now you asked her the first
Page 249.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
question, we are right at the start, right at the top,
and you ask Veronica, tell us in your own words what you know, and she
begins to tell you and she tells you she was at an intersection. I'm
asking you at that point is it your testimony you never asked her which
corner of that intersection she was on?
A. At that point I never asked her, no.
Q. Now, she tells you then that she looks down Locust
Street -- I am near the bottom of page 1 -- and she's looking towards
Johnny Dees. Do you know where Johnny Dees was?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Where is Johnny Dees at that time?
A. That was on the southeast corner of 13th and Locust on Locust
Street.
Q. On the southeast corner?
A. That's correct.
Q. So she's looking down towards that southeast corner and she said I
saw a policeman fall down. Right?
A. That's correct.
Q. This is after she heard three shots?
A. That's correct.
Q. After I saw the policeman fall -- reading from what you wrote -- I
saw two black guys walk across
Page 250.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
Locust Street and then they started sort of jogging.
Are those the words she used?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. You can't say those are the exact words, though?
A. Well, like I said, I wrote down what she said. These are the words I
remember her saying to me at that time.
Q. Did you ask her where they were jogging to?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you ask her in what direction they were jogging?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Were you interested in that?
A. At the time that this was taken maybe I don't know, I
didn't know what else she was going to say during the interview. And if I
overlooked that question I overlooked it.
Q. But is it your testimony that, Officer Bennett, that
in the shooting of a policeman, someone hears shots, sees a policeman
fall, some one or two men walk away and start jogging, you did not follow
that up with a question to describe those people?
A. In an --
Q. To ask her in what direction they were
Page 251.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
jogging?
A. One thing you have to realize: At that time of night,
shooting in that area, there was probably people running and jogging all
over the place. Now, she only seen two. I am sure there was other people
running.
Q. But she only talked about two, she didn't say
everybody was running, she didn't say a lot of people were running?
A. She said she saw two.
Q. She said see heard shots, I looked and I saw two black
men running. Did that in any way trigger in your mind the thought that you
should ask her who it was by description of who she saw running?
A. Later on in the questioning, on page 5 I ask the
question how close did the two black males who jogged and crossed Locust
Street get to the fallen officer. And her answer was not close enough,
maybe two or three steps away.
Maybe after I heard that I was satisfied that they
weren't close enough to have done anything, I don't know. But for some
reason I did not ask her what direction they jogged in.
Q. But it was important enough for you to follow it up with a second
question on page 5 about those
Page 252.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
two men jogging?
A. Well, the second question was important enough because
maybe they were a block away when she seen them jogging. And I asked her
how close it was, and when she said not close enough, whatever she means
by not close enough.
Q. -- You have an impression they were jogging away from the
shooting?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now let's go to the diagram which is page 6. Which I
know you didn't draw, your partner Mr. Harmon drew; right?
A. That is correct.
Q. And this diagram is done after you take the written statement?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. And what you try to do in this diagram -- correct me
if I am wrong -- is to record in a drawing form what the witness has told
you she saw?
A. That's correct.
Q. Did you on the diagram ask her to put where she saw
the two black men jogging after she heard the shots and the policeman fell
down?
A. It's not in the diagram. The only, she does make an indication going
back towards 13th Street, on
Page 253.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
the corner of 13th and Locust, southeast corner, again
where she seen a man standing. That's the only man she indicates in the
diagram.
Q. Detective Bennett, is it your testimony that you never
asked her to put on this diagram where she saw the two men jogging?
A. I would have to say yes because it's not on here.
Q. Incidentally, on this diagram, we will leave it, page
6, there is a direction for north, south east and west. Right?
A. Right.
Q. That's ordinarily done?
A. Yes.
Q. Who wrote that?
A. I believe that was done by Detective Harmon.
Q. So it was the detective who put the directions on the diagram?
A. That's my belief, yes, what I remember.
Q. In other words, you don't ask Miss Jones to orient the directions,
the detectives do it?
A. Yes. That's correct.
Q. And do you recall that Miss Jones had difficulty in
orienting directions with respect to where she was on this diagram?
Page 254.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
A. No, I don't recall that at all. She even made little
dots, little marks which, I mean they could be her footprints from what
she tells us.
Q. Right, where she goes around the corner?
A. Around the corner from 13th Street by the High Speed Line entrance
and then onto Locust Street.
Q. But do you know in her testimony under oath --
MR. WEINGLASS: Page 112, Counsel.
MS. FISK: I object to the detective being questioned with her testimony
under oath, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes, I will sustain that. He can't answer for your witness.
That is a question --
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. You are sure she didn't indicate to you that she was on the
northwest corner of that intersection?
A. No. And again, I think if we go back to page 1 of the
interview, they were in a restaurant called Rocky's. I know where Rocky's
is, I was familiar with where Rocky's was. They left Rocky's, they went
down an alley towards 12th Street, they went down 12th Street, crossed
Locust Street, and they joked around on the corner for a while. In order
to go across Locust Street at that point there you are
Page 255.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
going down 12th, you would be on the southwest corner.
Q. Right, but then she says we hung out on the corner for
a while, which indicates she might have crossed the street to the
northwest side?
MS. FISK: Well, I object to that question and what it might or might
not indicate, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. In other words, you made an assumption and on the
basis of that assumption from what you know of the neighborhood you placed
her on the southwest corner, and when she testified under oath she said
she was on the northwest corner?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. When she testified under
oath she denied ever saying these words. Which version would Mr. Weinglass
like, the first, the second, the third or the fourth?
MR. WEINGLASS: We have the transcripts again.
MS. FISK: Which transcript? I object to this witness being questioned
with the witness --
Page 256.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
MR. WEINGLASS: Of June 29th, 1982 of her testimony under oath where she
puts herself on the north --
MS. FISK: She put herself on that corner in her version
yesterday as well. My point is she has now given four different
versions.
THE COURT: The witnesses were sequestered at the time of
trial: He doesn't know what she testified to. You should ask your own
witness that.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Now, if Miss Jones said at the trial --
MS. FISK: Your Honor, I objected to that question already.
MR. WEINGLASS: May I finish? I have that privilege. You may object of
course.
MS. FISK: Well, thank you.
MR. WEINGLASS: And the Court will rule.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. If Miss Jones said at the time at the trial on June
29th, 1982, under oath, that she never told you that she saw two men
jogging, that would be false?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor, to
Page 257.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
that question.
THE COURT: Sustained. That is for me to decide whether it's false or
whether it's not false.
MR. WEINGLASS: Right.
THE COURT: It is not for the witness to tell me.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. As you sit here today, Officer, you are certain that she said to you
on December 9th, 1981 --
MS. WOLKENSTEIN: 15th.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. -- 15th that she saw two black men jogging away from the scene?
A. I'm positive that's what she told me.
MS. FISK: Did she say jogging or jogging away from the
scene? I object to the form of that question. Mr. Weinglass misrepresented
to the witness.
MR. WEINGLASS: Jogging away.
MS. FISK: What was recorded as an answer? Would Counsel
like to edit the rest of the transcript in this case as well?
MR. WEINGLASS: Following the witness' answer. I am not editing
anything.
Page 258.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
MS. FISK: I'm sorry, Judge, maybe I missed something. My
understanding and my reading is that it reads and then they started sort
of jogging and that there is then a period there. And if the detective had
an impression as to what she meant or what she didn't mean that is
certainly his impression, but the words which she spoke and which he
recorded do not include the word away on that page.
THE COURT: I agree with that: What is written is written.
MR. WEINGLASS: All right.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Counsel, when Mr. Burns wrote his brief to the Supreme
Court of Pennsylvania, on page 83 he informed the Supreme Court that Miss
Jones had retracted her earlier statement --
MS. FISK: Objection to this question.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. -- that she said seen someone running from the scene --
MR. WEINGLASS: That's Mr. Burns. That's their official document to the
Supreme Court.
MS. FISK: He is not on the witness
Page 259.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
stand either right now. And frankly, I don't think Mr.
Burns was out there and would be likely a witness in this case ever.
MR. WEINGLASS: I assume the District Attorney tries to accurately
--
MS. FISK: That's why we use information from witnesses that have
information about the offense.
MR. BURNS: I am gratified that Mr. Weinglass read my
brief so carefully but I don't think he is entitled to impeach this --
MR. WEINGLASS: I am not. I am answering Counsel's
objection that they don't take the position that the men were jogging
away. They took that position before the Supreme Court.
THE COURT: I don't care what position they give. The
Supreme Court reads the notes of testimony and they know what each witness
says.
MS. FISK: And I would note, Your Honor, that Mr. Burns
did in his initial response to Counsel's Petition state that Miss Jones
never even said she saw people running away and argued quite strenuously
in that document that that was an interpretation that
Page 260.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
Counsel, defense Counsel were placing on the document.
MR. WEINGLASS: Page 83, direct quote: Someone running from the
scene.
THE COURT: Counsel, I don't care what he put in his
brief. The witness can't answer for that. He didn't write that brief. Now,
why are you wasting my time. It's getting late.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Detective Bennett, when you went out to the house on December 15th,
you were given her address?
A. We secured her address. I don't know whether it was
off of a prior contact, report, or what it was from, but we were given her
address.
Q. Do you know how it was that almost a week later you
had received information that there was this witness who was out there
that night?
A. I think that information was probably secured long
before a week later. From the, from my memory, I believe it came from
another prostitute that was out there that night.
Q. From Cynthia White?
A. And that we had to do some research and everything to find out who
she was and where she lived.
Page 261.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
Q. Right, it was from Cynthia White?
A. I don't remember the name, it could have been.
Q. Right. You remember the name Cynthia White, though?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And it could have been Cynthia White that provided this
information?
A. It could have been her or any of the other people that were out
there, yes.
Q. Do you know Cynthia White as Lucky also, that was her name?
A. No, I don't know that, no.
Q. You didn't know it?
A. No.
Q. Okay. So Cynthia White indicated at least to your impression that
she knew Veronica Jones?
MS. FISK: Objection, Judge. Maybe I am not hearing but that wasn't the
response of the witness.
THE COURT: I know.
MS. FISK: I object to Counsel misrepresenting.
THE COURT: I sustain the objection. Please, Counselor,
don't misquote what somebody says. It's bad enough to keep a record of
what
Page 262.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
they say. BY MR: WEINGLASS:
Q. Just correct me, then, apparently I'm wrong. I think
you testified that it's your impression that it was gotten from another
prostitute, possibly Cynthia White, who would have to know who Veronica
Jones is?
MS. FISK: Judge, how does he know who knows who? Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. WEINGLASS: I am asking the witness.
THE COURT: He said he didn't know. Whoever gave him the
information, that's what he had. Here is a name, an address, go out there
and interview this witness.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Referring you to page 2 of Commonwealth 1: Did you
also hear Miss Jones tell you that she saw one other black guy standing by
the entrance of the Speed Line by Johnny Dees?
A. That's what she said, yes.
Q. And you recorded that?
A. That is correct.
Q. And then when she did the diagram was she
Page 263.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
asked to place that person?
A. She does place that person in the diagram, yes.
Q. And she places him right there at that southeast corner?
A. That is correct.
Q. Of 13th and Locust and she writes the word man?
A. That's correct.
Q. That is in her handwriting?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Did you ask her to describe that man?
A. No, I don't think we did, no.
Q. Detective Bennett, prior to your seeing Miss Jones on
December 15th and in connection with your investigation of this case, did
you talk to a William Singletary?
MS. FISK: Objection.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Who claimed to be on the southeast corner right where Miss Jones
said she saw a black man?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Did you talk to William Singletary?
Page 264.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
MS. FISK: That was my objection.
THE COURT: Yes, it is sustained.
MR. WEINGLASS: Your Honor, it goes to this diagram.
THE COURT: It doesn't go to the diagram. Where she put a
man she put a man, that's all. She didn't write Singleton down there.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. No, she didn't know his name but did you attempt to ascertain from
her who that man was?
A. I don't think I ever asked the question if she knew who that man
was.
Q. He would be pretty close to the murder scene, wouldn't he?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. He would be within feet of Officer Faulkner; isn't that correct?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor, to where he would be. The statement
which she made speaks for itself.
THE COURT: It is her statement, it speaks for itself.
Page 265.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. In the course of your work of investigating a homicide
of a police officer, if you interview a witness such as Veronica Jones and
she indicates that she saw someone else right at the scene at or about the
time of the shooting, would you attempt to ascertain the identity of that
person for purposes of follow-up investigation?
A. I'm not fully aware -- sure, but we may have already
known the identity of that person. Maybe that's why I didn't ask that
question: I didn't think too much of it at the time. Then again, there is
always a possibility once we review this or somebody else reviews it we go
back and talk to Veronica again if we think it is important.
Q. Did you ever go back to talk to Veronica Jones?
A. To her? No, I didn't.
Q. Do you know if anyone ever went back to talk to her?
A. No, I don't think anyone ever did.
Q. Did you ever engage in a conversation with any other
investigators in which you pointed to this diagram or explained to them
that, A, there might have been another man out there at the scene?
Page 266.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
A. I don't remember doing that, no.
Q. So this diagram does not have, or -- I'm sorry -- the
investigation does not have any description of that man and this diagram
does not have any indication of the two black men who were jogging?
MS. FISK: I object to the form of that question,
particularly the first half in reference to the investigation. I thought
that the testimony was confined to this statement.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WEINGLASS: It goes to what he did the night of December 15th.
THE COURT: Counselor, do you want me to tell you who the man was who
was standing there?
MR. WEINGLASS: Well, Your Honor, I object to this Court
engaging in this kind of an exercise. It really is, Your Honor, quite
futile.
THE COURT: Did you read the notes of testimony?
MR. WEINGLASS: Pardon?
THE COURT: Did you read the notes of testimony?
Page 267.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
MR. WEINGLASS: I have read the notes very carefully.
THE COURT: Well, if you know the notes of testimony you know who was
standing there.
MR. WEINGLASS: I read the notes of testimony and it is my
belief it was William Singletary. Precisely where this person is
located.
THE COURT: It wasn't William Singletary.
MR. WEINGLASS: It is exactly where William Singletary placed
himself.
THE COURT: No, the officer came on that scene in 45 seconds. 45
seconds.
MR. WEINGLASS: You think it was a policeman?
THE COURT: No, I know who it was. It was his brother.
MR. WEINGLASS: No, his brother was nowhere near where
this location is indicated. Nowhere near it, Your Honor. You are way off
base, I must say that respectfully. He was up against the wall. This
officer who you referred to testified. Up against the wall with his
back
Page 268.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
against the building, raising his hands saying I have
nothing to do with this. He was not out by the Speed Line on the southeast
corner of 12th end Locust. You're just wrong on this. I say that most
respectfully.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WEINGLASS: There was only one person on that corner
who has testified in this case and that is William Singletary.
THE COURT: I know that. His brother.
MS. FISK: That was a witness who Your Honor found to be
incredible based on the fact that he saw police helicopters hovering
overhead immediately afterwards in part.
Your Honor, may I ask if there is anymore cross-examination of this
detective?
MR. WEINGLASS: There sure is.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Now drawing your attention to page 3. In the middle of
this page, according to your writing, Veronica Jones identified a woman
named Candy who was there with her, or nearby her. Did you attempt
afterwards to find out who Candy was?
A. Well, from what she said Candy wasn't a woman, but I never
personally tried to find Candy, no.
Page 269.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
Q. Right. It's because she refers to Candy or Sabrina and she says I
don't know his real name?
A. That is correct.
Q. Yes. Was it your recollection that she said his and not her?
A. I know she said his. That's what I recorded and I know she said
his.
Q. In any event, Candy or Sabrina is someone you never did a follow-up
investigation on?
A. I never did, no.
Q. And she said someone else was there, Charley Smith was there. She
said he was either there or he heard about it?
A. She said she thinks this was one of the guys that picks up trash for
Charley Smith.
Q. I'm sorry, for Charley Smith.
(Discussion was held off the record at this time.)
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Okay, I'm sorry. One of the guys that picks up trash for Charley
Smith. Charley Smith is a trash hauler?
A. Apparently a trash hauler, yes.
Q. Did you ever go to Charley Smith to find out who that particular
individual might have been?
Page 270.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
A. I never did, no.
Q. Just going back to the earlier series of questions, I
am finished with Charley Smith. Did you notice the answer that she gave to
you if you wrote it verbatim, do you know Candy's full name you ask. And
she says she uses Candy and Sabrina, Sabrina, I don't know his real name.
So in the same sentence she uses she and then his?
A. That's correct.
Q. And from that you draw what conclusion?
A. Well, my impression from knowing that area for a lot
of years, and the name Candy and Sabrina, it's someone that's trying to
look like a she who was really a he.
Q. Right.
A. That's the impression she left with me. And that's the way she
answered and that's the way I recorded it.
Q. Right, you didn't ask her a follow-up: Veronica, are
we talking about a transvestite or are we talking about a male or
female?
A. No, I think I just got that impression from her and that's the way
it was left.
Q. And again no follow-up investigation there either that you did?
Page 271.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
A. I don't know. I didn't do anything.
Q. Right, and you didn't do anything about Charley Smith's
employee?
A. I did not myself, no.
Q. Right. Now, you asked her how close she got to where
the policeman was shot and she said I was near Polly's Coffee Shop. Where
is Polly's Coffee Shop?
A. Polly's from my recollection would have been down
about half a block away, I think it's Camac Street that cuts through
there. And if I am not mistaken, Polly's was on the corner of Camac
Street, I am just not that sure which corner. Polly's wasn't open that
time of night. And when I was out there, 99 percent of the time it was
that time of night.
Q. Right. You knew where Polly's was?
A. No, I know roughly where it was, I don't know for sure.
Q. Wasn't Polly's on the north side of Locust Street?
MS. FISK: No, not then, not ever.
MR. WEINGLASS: I'm sorry, I thought --
MS. FISK: I thought when a witness said he doesn't know that you don't
then suggest
Page 272.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
things, particularly when you're wrong.
MR. WEINGLASS: Your Honor, I don't think it is proper for Counsel to
answer a question directly.
THE COURT: Please. You know, it is getting late: 4:30.
Let's get finished with this witness. He was brought here for one purpose
only, but we are going through the whole world on this. You'd think he was
the only investigator.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Was it your impression as a seasoned investigator, by
this time my calculation is you had over 15 years experience, that she was
trying to answer your questions candidly, honestly?
A. I don't believe that to be the case, no.
Q. Did you ever inform anyone of that?
A. I don't think I had to. I don't think I did, no.
Q. In other words, you filed this information which is
C-l into a homicide file believing that not all the information was
correct and you never told anyone that this information was not
correct?
A. It is not that it was filed believing that it was incorrect, no. I
just, based on a lot of years
Page 273.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
experience, have found out that people most times, first
interview, do not tell you everything that they know. And that's what my
feelings were: I think she knew a lot more than what she told us.
Q. Right. And it would be wise for someone to go back and see
Veronica?
A. Well, I ,think if anybody would have reviewed this
interview anywhere down the line at that time we probably would have, I
would have been questioned on it, that's for sure, and we would have had
the same opinion probably.
Q. You don't know that she was picked up in January and questioned for
over five hours?
A. No, I don't know that.
Q. You don't know that she was questioned again when she was in lockup
in June just before she testified?
MS. FISK: That was a statement of fact or a question? I got
confused.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. No, I am asking you if you know?
A. No, I don't know.
Q. You would have recommended that?
A. Would I have recommended it?
Q. Yes.
Page 274.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
MS. FISK: What? Recommended what?
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. You would have recommended that she be interviewed again?
A. To get her to tell the truth, yes. But then again, I mean we could
still be sitting here asking her questions.
Q. Right. Well, you thought that she did see someone jog away?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor, to what he thought.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Well, we already had your impression that you weren't
getting the whole story. But not getting the whole story, you also thought
that she saw someone jog away?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor, to what he thought.
THE COURT: Yes, he was only taking down her statement, not his
statement.
MR. WEINGLASS: But he has already testified, Your Honor,
that he has an impression based on his years of experience and he
evaluated the information he was being given.
Page 275.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
And I am asking him did he evaluate the part of someone jogging
away.
THE COURT: But, Counselor, what you don't understand: He doesn't have
the ultimate say.
MR. WEINGLASS: Of course not.
THE COURT: That is someone up above.
MR. WEINGLASS: Right.
THE COURT: Well, you should ask the somebody else who would be able to
answer those questions.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Okay. Did someone up above who was involved in the
investigation come back to you and say Detective Bennett, that information
that you recorded in your interview of December 15th, is it your
impression that that, that she was telling you the truth?
A. I don't remember anybody up above ever saying that to me, no.
Q. But you do, you did have the impression that she was
out there that night and she saw a lot, and maybe she saw more than she
told you in the initial interview; isn't that your impression?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor.
Page 276.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. By the way, you knew that Veronica at that time was a
prostitute?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And I don't want to get into any character questions,
but you also knew that prostitutes had to be careful in their relationship
with the police?
MS. FISK: What? Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained. What do you mean careful?
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. You also knew that prostitutes would have a
self-interest in not doing anything to offend the police?
MS. FISK: Objection.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Particularly where there is a case where a police officer is
killed?
THE COURT: The objection is sustained.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Did you take into account when you wrote this and you interviewed
her her then occupation as a prostitute?
Page 277.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: He said he knew she was a prostitute.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Did you take it into account?
THE COURT: So what? All he could take into consideration
is what she tells him. He doesn't have a right to put anything in there of
what he thinks she should tell him.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. You wrote down in the interview that she was 20 years old?
A. That is correct.
Q. You knew that she had children?
A. I don't know that I knew that, no.
Q. Did you see children at the house?
A. I don't remember seeing children, no.
Q. They might have been there?
A. They could have been. They could have been upstairs in bed, I just
don't know.
Q. Did you see any male members of the household when you were
there?
A. No, I don't remember any males being there.
Q. A mother that you indicated at the beginning?
A. I sort of have a vague memory of her mother
Page 278.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
being there. And it was her mother's house, I know that.
But if she was there, and I sort of had a vague memory of it, she did
leave us alone and we did the interview.
Q. Right, did you know Veronica lived in that house?
A. Did I know that she lived there? I didn't know where she lived. We
had numerous addresses on her.
Q. Right. Did you have aliases also?
A. There were other names, yes, I don't recall what they are,
though.
Q. Various addresses, various names?
A. That is correct.
Q. Various Social Security numbers?
A. Well, she gave one Social Security number and she gave me two
addresses on the interview.
Q. You wrote them down?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. They were never provided to the defense, though; is that
correct?
A. I have no way of knowing.
Q. All right. Is it ordinarily done in a homicide case
that the address of a witness is deleted, in your -- no, you can look at
me, you
Page 279.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
don't --
A. There is nothing deleted on here. The addresses that I had at the
time she gave us are written on here.
MR. WEINGLASS: May I take a look at the --
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Well, why don't you just read the addresses in?
A. She gave 1056 Everett Street, Camden, New Jersey, and
that is where we did the interview. And she gave 5101 Chester Avenue, top
floor, that's Philadelphia.
Q. So you had the impression she might be living in two places?
A. From what I remember, there was more addresses than two.
Q. More than two. Right. So as I understand now your
testimony, your interview began at 9:45, that is the date and time you
entered?
A. That's correct.
Q. And it concluded at what time?
MS. FISK: Your Honor, objection. I believe it's been asked and answered
as to the length of the interview.
Page 280.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
THE COURT: I think it has, too. But if it's on there read it off. If
not --
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Did you write the date and time it concluded?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Is there a box for that?
A. No, there isn't.
Q. Now, as I see your document, which is C-l, Veronica's signature
appears on every page at the bottom?
A. That is correct.
Q. You do that as a matter of practice?
A. Well, I didn't do that, Veronica did that. It is her
signature. I asked her to read and sign it if she agreed with it. She took
her time with each page, looked each page over and signed each page
individually.
Q. In your presence?
A. Yes.
Q. You can testify of your own knowledge that she signed every
page?
A. Yes, I can.
Q. And if she testified in 1982 at the trial under oath that she didn't
sign every page, that would be false?
Page 281 is missing. We will
attempt to locate it.
Page 282.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
Q. And that wasn't recorded; is that correct?
A. That's not on the interview, no.
Q. So there was more conversation that was never recorded?
A. I testified to that, yes.
Q. All right. And so how much more conversation was there that you
never recorded?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor.
This has been gone over.
THE COURT: Yes, it's getting kind of late, Counsel.
MR. WEINGLASS: Yes, I understand.
MS. FISK: Without regard to the hour, it's already been asked and
answered.
MR. WEINGLASS: I understand.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Did you ever ask Veronica in this form the question
of... no, strike that. Just in summary form: You did not ask her to
describe the person who worked for Charley Smith who was out there she
said. You did not ask her to describe Candy or Sabrina. You did not ask
her to describe the man who was at the southeast corner of Locust and
13th; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Page 283.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
MS. FISK: Your Honor, I object: It has already been answered.
THE WITNESS: It is not what I said. I started to say and that is all I
had.
MS. FISK: And I object to the question: It has been asked and
answered.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Now, did Officer Harmon do any of the questioning?
A. No, I asked all the questions and recorded everything that was
said.
Q. And he, as you said, drew the diagram?
A. That is correct.
MS. FISK: Your Honor, that has been asked and answered.
THE COURT: That was a thousand times now. Geez, if you didn't get
that.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Who drew the police car on the diagram?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor: Asked and answer.
MR. WEINGLASS: No, that was never answered.
THE COURT: He said Harmon did
Page 284.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
everything as far as drawing on that thing is concerned.
MR. WEINGLASS: No, as I understand it, he drew the geographic lines of
the streets. Who drew the car --
MS. FISK: That's been asked and answered that Miss Jones drew that,
Your Honor, it is on the record.
MR. WEINGLASS: Oh, is it? Then I'm sorry, I didn't hear it.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Miss Jones drew it?
MS. FISK: Apparently Mr. Weinglass chooses that not to
hear a great deal, and that which he hears he chooses to change a great
deal. That has been asked and answered.
MR. WEINGLASS: Thank you.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Now, on page 2 you ask Miss Jones precisely did you
see a Volkswagen parked on Locust Street that night. Now, you raised the
Volkswagen, you knew there was a Volkswagen there; isn't that correct?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And so you had information going into this interview, of course?
Page 285.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And you had read various police reports?
A. No, I don't think I read any reports at that time. I had information
just from working on the incident.
Q. Right, but part of your working at that point was not reading
reports?
A. That's correct.
Q. You looked at photographs or diagrams?
A. Well, as far as the Volkswagen goes, I was there when
the Volkswagen was searched at the Police Garage so I knew it was a
Volkswagen.
Q. Right. Do you know what was taken out of the Volkswagen?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. WEINGLASS: Right, okay.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Now, in response to the question about the Volkswagen,
what response did Veronica give you that you wrote down?
MS. FISK: Your Honor, objection: The statement speaks for itself.
MR. WEINGLASS: No, we are going --
MS. FISK: It has been marked and
Page 286.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
entered into evidence.
THE COURT: He can't read it so would you read what the answer is.
THE WITNESS: She answered, I saw a green Volkswagen go
away, then she changed that to around the block a couple of times that
night before the shooting. It was driven by a black guy.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Did she strike the words away or did you?
A. When she was given the statement to read it is one of the
corrections that she made.
Q. Did she initial that?
A. I think that's the only correction. No, it is not.
Q. Isn't it customary to have them initial corrections?
A. I think it is, yes.
Q. You didn't ask her to?
A. I asked her to but I am not going to grab her by the
hand and make her do it. She was asked to do it, she just didn't do
it.
Q. She said she saw a black guy driving the Volkswagen,
the Volkswagen that was parked at the scene. Did you ask her to describe
that guy?
Page 287.
Daniel Bennett - Cross
A. No, I did not.
Q. Any reason for that?
A. I think at that time I already knew who the guy who was driving the
Volkswagen was.
Q. You were sure of that?
A. From what I knew --
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor, as to whether the detective was sure
or not.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Did you ask her if there were others in that car?
A. No, I did not.
MR. WEINGLASS: Hmm-hmm. I have nothing further.
MS. FISK: May I just, may I approach the witness, Your
Honor? I have just, actually I will show the photograph to Counsel first
(handing).
May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Go ahead, if you have to.
MS. FISK: I just want to point out one part of the photograph and ask a
question about it.
- - - - -
Page 288.
Daniel Bennett - Redirect
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
- - - - -
BY MS. FISK:
Q. Mr. Bennett, do you recognize this photograph as the south side of
Locust Street?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you see -- and I am pointing in the left-hand side
of the south side of Locust Street down towards, actually you can see
clearly a sign Camac as we are going away from 13th Street, a little
tea-shaped, tea cup shaped sign?
A. That is correct.
Q. And do you recognize what that sign was for?
A. That was the place I thought was Polly's Coffee Shop.
Q. Is that it?
A. To my knowledge it was.
Q. Is that the south side of Locust Street?
A. Yes.
MR. WEINGLASS: May I see that?
MS. FISK: Certainly (handing).
MR. WEINGLASS: Are you sure that is not Chancellor?
MS . FISK: I am certain that is on Locust Street on the corner,
southeast corner of
Page 289.
Daniel Bennett - Redirect
Locust and Camac.
THE COURT: You could take a walk down there.
MS. FISK: It is not there anymore, Judge.
THE COURT: Well, at least you could see the locality.
MS. FISK: It is Uncle's now.
MR. WEINGLASS: I'm sorry, may I see Counsel for a minute.
I didn't see where you pointed.
MS. FISK: Certainly. Locust Street, on the south side
(indicating). And there's Camac. 12th Street is down here. This tea-cup
shaped sign, this is Polly's. It is on the other side of Camac Street on
the south side of Locust. That is Polly's. It is now a store called
Uncle's. If you go down there now you will see a store called Uncle's
where Polly's used to be.
- - - - -
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
- - - - -
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. You have seen this photograph before?
Page 290.
Daniel Bennett - Recross
A. Not to my knowledge, no.
Q. First time you have seen it?
A. From what I remember, yes.
Q. To your knowledge, is this a photo of the crime scene?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. It was used to refresh
his recollection with regard to the geography of Locust Street and the
south side of Locust Street and the location of a restaurant called
Polly's.
MR. WEINGLASS: I can't make out there what the witness identified. Is
that east or west of Camac?
MS. FISK: I know it to be... east of Camac Street. Which
is, frankly, precisely as the diagram of Miss Jones demonstrates.
MR. WEINGLASS: I'm sorry, I should ask the witness.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Is it east or west of Camac? Do you need the photograph, would it
help you?
A. What I testified to earlier was it was on the corner
of Camac and Locust. And I couldn't remember which corner exactly it was
on because it was always closed at nighttime and that's when I was out
there.
Page 291.
Daniel Bennett - Recross
Q. Could I show you this picture, would it help you?
A. I don't know if it would or not from that angle from what I have
seen here.
Q. You can't say whether it is east or west?
A. From what I have seen here I couldn't tell.
Q. There is a sign here which says Camac?
A. Which corner is the sign on? I mean I don't know.
THE COURT: Counselor, why don't you take a walk down there after we
leave here, take a look at it.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. Polly's isn't there anymore, is it?
A. Not that I know of.
MR. WEINGLASS: Not everything stays the same.
THE COURT: Well, when you wait 14, 15 years, no, it is not going to
remain the same.
BY MR. WEINGLASS:
Q. There is also the Mission Hotel there?
MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor.
MR. WEINGLASS: I am just going to ask some questions directed to the
photograph.
MS. FISK: Then I suggest you read it
Page 292.
MS. FISK: I have nothing further, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay, you are excused. I will see you tomorrow morning. Same
time, same place.
THE COURT OFFICER: This Court now stands adjourned until tomorrow
morning at 10:00 a.m. at the call of the Crier.
- - - - -
(The hearing was adjourned for the day at 4:43 p.m.)
- - - - -
Page 293.
I hereby certify that the proceedings and evidence are
contained fully and accurately in the notes taken by me on the trial of
the above cause, and that this copy is a correct transcript of the
same.
Official Stenographer
Date |