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Verfahren gegen Mumia Abu-JamalPCRA-Anhörung vom 26. Juni 1997 |
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THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS
- - - - - PCRA Hearing - - - - - Thursday, June 26, 1997 - - - - - BEFORE: THE HONORABLE ALBERT F. SABO, J. - - - - -
- - - - - TRANSCRIBED BY: CHARLES M. GORGOL |
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Page 2. ALSO PRESENT:
EXHIBITS
Page 3.
EVIDENCE
Page 4. - - - - - (At 10:05 a.m. the hearing was convened in the - - - - - THE COURT: Good morning, everyone. THE COURT OFFICER: Mr. Weinglass stepped out for a moment. (Pause) MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Excuse me, Your Honor. We wanted to see Mr. Jamal before we began proceedings this morning as well up here. THE COURT: What do you need to see him about? MS. WOLKENSTEIN: He is our client. THE COURT: I know he is your client. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: We need to consult with him. THE COURT: Why didn't you see him yesterday? MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Mr. Weinglass... THE COURT: Well, he will be brought out to you and you will have a chance to talk to him. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Judge Sabo asked why Page 5. we didn't see Mr. Jamal yesterday and I just wanted to make a record on that. (Discussion held off the record.) THE COURT: I didn't okay anything. Nobody asked me anything. MR. WEINGLASS: The clerk -- THE COURT OFFICER: It was just brought to my attention, Your Honor, that that's what he wanted to do. If it's all right. THE COURT: He said whether I okayed it. I didn't okay anything. MR. WEINGLASS: It was a Court clerk, I never said the Judge okayed it. THE COURT: Okay. All right. THE SHERIFF: Bring him in? THE COURT: Sure. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Your Honor, as I requested, we would like to see Mr. Jamal before we begin. THE COURT: You will see him when he comes in the Courtroom. You should have seen him before now. I can't run my Courtroom for your convenience. We are here for one limited purpose, that is to take the testimony of Pamela Jenkins. Page 6. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Your Honor, before we get into that, you asked why we didn't see Mr. Jamal yesterday. And I wanted to indicate to you that Mr. Jamal was brought to Frackville, which is some three hours from here, yesterday. We certainly intended to see Mr. Jamal yesterday but he wasn't even in Frackville until late in the evening. Which is three hours away, which meant it was impossible for us to consult with Mr. Jamal prior to this hearing in any sort of deliberate, regular way. THE COURT: Why do you have to consult with him? He is not going to testify today. Only one witness: Pamela Jenkins. That's all, nobody else. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: We firmly believe that our client has the right to Counsel and that he has a right to consult with Counsel. THE COURT: You will be able to consult with him while the witness testifies. I mean he knows what the witness is going to say? MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Your Honor, I request that we make sure that Mr. Jamal is housed in the Philadelphia -- THE COURT: He will be brought in here Page 7. for you, he will sit right there, you will be able to talk to him all you want. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: In the Philadelphia area this evening so that we will be able to consult with him prior to any proceedings, further proceedings in this matter. THE COURT: What further proceedings? We are here for a limited purpose: To take the testimony of Pamela Jenkins. That's all. I am not hearing anything else, do you understand? MR. WEINGLASS: Well, Judge, we subpoenaed -- THE COURT: I don't care who you subpoenaed. They are quashed. I am here only for Pamela Jenkins. That's what the Supreme Court sent it down for and that's all I am hearing. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Your Honor, before we discuss that could we have Mr. Jamal produced in Court before we begin? THE COURT: Well, he will be brought in here. THE COURT OFFICER: Bring him out, gentlemen. Thank you. (Pause) Page 8. (The Defendant entered the Courtroom at this time.) MR. WEINGLASS. If Your Honor please: Just to address the, just to address the last issue which the Court has raised: We have received a May 30th Order of the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania which requires this remand hearing -- quoting from the Order -- to take additional testimony with respect to Pamela Jenkins. Now, of course the Supreme Court could have ordered testimony of Pamela Jenkins, and then the Court hearing would have been limited to just her testimony. However, the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania wrote in their opinion that they wanted testimony with respect to Pamela Jenkins. Which is a much broader grant of authority. THE COURT: You will have to go back up to the Supreme Court and tell them to revise their order. Because I take this to mean only her testimony. Now, if it means something else, let the Supreme Court tell me. MR. WEINGLASS: Well, it is the position of this Court -- so that I am clear -- THE COURT: Yes, yes -- Page 9. MR. WEINGLASS: -- that you will -- THE COURT: Only hear Pamela Jenkins, that's all. MR. WEINGLASS: We contend that -- THE COURT: Well, if you contend that you go back up to the Supreme Court. They have sent it back before and they will send it back again. And let them spell out who is going to testify. MR. WEINGLASS: Yes, by -- THE COURT: As far as I am concerned, only Pamela Jenkins. Now, if it is going to be anything else, you better go back up there and get it clarified. MR. WEINGLASS: Your Honor is going to have to evaluate her credibility in making findings of fact. THE COURT: Well, I know that. MR. WEINGLASS: In order to do that you will need testimony of others who support her testimony. THE COURT: Counselor, you take that up with the Supreme Court. Please. I don't interpret it that way. MS. FISK: Your Honor, I may note that Page 10. after Miss Jenkins' testimony, if Counsel at that time wishes to offer additional witnesses and state an offer of proof, the Commonwealth may not have objection to various additional witnesses. THE COURT: I don't care what the Commonwealth feels. I am telling you I am going by the Supreme Court's Order. If you have to go up and get it clarified, fine. MS. FISK: Yes, sir. THE COURT: So you better be prepared to make whatever objections you are going to make and I will rule on them. MR. WEINGLASS: So that we are clear at the beginning: We are only to call Pamela Jenkins? THE COURT: That's all. MR. WEINGLASS: And we are precluded from all the others? THE COURT: Right. MR. WEINGLASS: All the subpoenas are quashed? THE COURT: They are quashed. I don't even know what subpoenas you issued. MR. WEINGLASS: Well, Your Honor, Page 11. could we make a record on our subpoenas? THE COURT: Go ahead. MS. FISK: Your Honor, I am assuming that Your Honor is going to permit the Commonwealth to call witnesses to contest -- THE COURT: I am not going to let the Commonwealth do anything. This Order says Pamela Jenkins. Now, if you had a problem with it, while you were up at the Supreme Court, why didn't you argue that? MS. FISK: We don't have a problem with it, Your Honor. Our position, however, is that whenever the Defendant presents a witness, the Commonwealth, in addition to cross-examining that witness, has a right to present testimony to challenge the witness' credibility. THE COURT: Did it say that in this Order? MS. FISK: Certainly. And it is my position that, with respect to her, we have a right to show the witness is not telling the truth. THE COURT: Have you ever heard of a PCRA that has come back for a remand two times? Two times? Page 12. MS. FISK: It is, however -- THE COURT: I want a clarification of exactly what they want. MS. FISK: Yes, sir. THE COURT: I don't know why they need this. MS. FISK: Beyond that, however, it is the Commonwealth's position that the Commonwealth should be allowed to present testimony that contradicts the witness. THE COURT: You should have argued that when you were up at the Supreme Court and asked them to rewrite this Order. You had this Order for a long time. MS. FISK: Yes, sir. THE COURT: I didn't. They didn't send me the Order. MR. WEINGLASS: Your Honor, when we applied to the Supreme Court for this remand hearing, we filed a 15-page document setting out all the reasons why all the other support testimony is required for Pamela Jenkins. It was only after receiving our document that the Supreme Court ordered this hearing, presumably so that all the contextual issues that we raised Page 13. could be brought out in this hearing. THE COURT: Counselor -- MR. WEINGLASS: You can not just hear Pamela Jenkins alone: It will not make any sense to the Supreme Court. THE COURT: If it doesn't, let them put a new Order in, we will bring them back again. MR. WEINGLASS: But their Order is clear. THE COURT: It is not clear to me. MR. WEINGLASS: It doesn't say for the testimony of Pamela Jenkins, it says with respect to Pamela Jenkins. Which the Supreme Court wrote that order after receiving our lengthy document explaining why all the additional testimony in addition to Pamela Jenkins is required. THE COURT: What are they doing, giving us a whole new hearing here? MS. FISK: No, Your Honor. MR. WEINGLASS: Yes. MS. FISK: With regard to this witness, clearly the Supreme Court has permitted testimony to be taken. Page 14. THE COURT: I am saying today we will take the testimony only of Pamela Jenkins. You go back up to the Supreme Court and say will you please clearly outline what you want the Court to do. I wasn't there at the Supreme Court. You were and he was. I don't know what goes on up there. MR. WEINGLASS: But, Your Honor, we filed this week a new document -- THE COURT: I know you did. And in some of it you wanted to get a new Judge, they denied that. You wanted to make a Batson claim and they knocked that out. You wanted discovery and they knocked that out. MR. WEINGLASS: But they did grant us a full hearing on Pamela Jenkins with respect to Pamela Jenkins. THE COURT: Counselor, right, today I am only taking her testimony. After her testimony is finished, you could go back up to the Supreme Court and say the Judge only allowed that, would you please tell him what else he can do. I am not going to try to interpret their minds: I don't know what they want. MR. WEINGLASS: Well, we gave you a Page 15. memorandum on Tuesday. THE COURT: Counselor, I don't know what they want. Let them put it in plain English. And whatever they say, I will do. But as far as I'm concerned, it is limited today to Pamela Jenkins. Go back up to the Supreme Court. (Discussion was held off the record at MR. WEINGLASS: We are prepared to proceed with Pamela Jenkins. THE COURT: Okay. MR. WEINGLASS: The defense calls Pamela Jenkins. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Judge Sabo's Court clerk knows she is in custody because he assisted in getting the order to have her produced. THE COURT OFFICER: Nobody told us, we had to tell the Sheriff. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: She's downstairs. THE COURT OFFICER: She is downstairs? MS. WOLKENSTEIN: She is produced. We made sure she is produced. She is produced. THE COURT OFFICER: Captain Kennedy. Page 16. Ask the Captain to come in, please. MR. WEINGLASS: Your Honor, while we are waiting do you want us to make the record on the subpoenas? THE COURT: Yes. MR. WEINGLASS: Could we do that? THE COURT: Go ahead. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: As indicated in the pre-hearing memorandum that was filed by the defense on Tuesday, the defense, in line with the Order from the Supreme Court indicating that this hearing is in reference to the testimony of Pamela Jenkins, has subpoenaed a number of individuals as well as documents for this hearing. One of the other individuals, or two of the individuals who have been subpoenaed are Richard Ryan, Detective Richard Ryan of Central Detectives. He is centrally named by Pamela Jenkins as the individual from Central Detectives that she was brought to by Tom Ryan, who was also subpoenaed. THE COURT: That's all right, just give me their names. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: I think I need to make clear for the record and for the Court so Page 17. in making you're ruling as to what are the reasons and the rationale for -- THE COURT: Please, I told you go back to the Supreme Court. Let them -- you give them those names and if they say take the testimony of those individuals, I will hear that testimony. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: These individuals were specifically named by Pamela Jenkins as being the officers who pressured her into trying to make her falsely state that Mr. Jamal was the shooter of Officer Faulkner. And they further indicated to her that they wanted to try and find Cynthia White, they paid her money to find Cynthia White, who was the primary prosecution witness in this hearing. And -- THE COURT: I don't think she was the primary. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: And extremely germane to the hearing that we are -- THE COURT: She wasn't the primary witness. MS. FISK: Your Honor, I would note that we have no objection to the defense calling these two additional witnesses in pursuant to Page 18. the remand. THE COURT: What witnesses? MS. FISK: Officer Tom Ryan and Officer Richard Ryan are both mentioned in Pamela Jenkins' affidavit that was submitted to the Supreme Court, and we have no objection to the defense also calling those witnesses in order to support the allegations that Ms. Jenkins is making. And we have no objection to their calling those witnesses. THE COURT: Okay. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: The other individual who is also specifically named by Pamela Jenkins who we have subpoenaed is former patrolman or Officer Lawrence Boston. He has been subpoenaed. He has been subpoenaed, he is named by Pamela Jenkins as being a police officer who was present on the scene at the time of the Faulkner shooting. This is information, furthermore, that should have been Brady material, should have been turned over to the defense. THE COURT: Well, they denied your Brady material now. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Brady material is Page 19. not deniable; Brady material is an obligation by the prosecution -- MS. FISK: Right. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: -- to turn over. It is not required that we even ask for such a thing. MS. FISK: Your Honor -- MS. WOLKENSTEIN: It is the obligation of the State to provide any Boston evidence to the defense. Officer Boston and Detective Richard Ryan and another man by the name of Sarge, who we believe is the prosecuted, convicted 39th District officer named Louis Maier who is currently incarcerated, were all three individuals who were present on the scene when Officer Faulkner was shot. These individuals and any statements of what they saw have never been turned over to the defense. This should have been Brady material. The fact that we have officers who may have been there when the shooting took place that we do not have one report from them in the 150 reports that were turned over to the defense makes this very, very similar to the Ryder case, where after 13 years and many, and several different hearings, Page 20. it took, it took 13 years for finally one judge to issue an order so that there was discovery of the prosecution's files, in which there were several, another hundred investigative reports in there, including eight which were exculpatory of the defendant. We believe that is the posture of this case. That there is Brady material, information establishing not only the innocence of our client, but also any other information important for impeachment of prosecution witnesses that should have been turned over. For this prosecution to depend on Cynthia White, a prostitute convicted some 38 times, when there were police officers on the scene who witnessed this shooting -- THE COURT: As I told you before, I was the Judge at the time and I don't think Cynthia White was a big witness in this case. But. MS. FISK: She certainly was not the sole eyewitness, Your Honor. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: But beyond that, Your Honor, with regard -- THE COURT: Wait a while. Page 21. MS. FISK: With regard to Miss Wolkenstein's application: Pamela Jenkins in her affidavit notes in the last paragraph that Tom Ryan told her that police personnel, including a police officer named Boston, was present. For that reason I have no objection to Counsel calling former Police Officer Larry Boston to testify in order to buttress Miss Jenkins' testimony. There was a nickname Sarge in the affidavit. The Commonwealth cannot agree and does not agree that that refers to any particular officer. And in fact I don't believe that Officer Maier, or former Officer Maier, of who they are claiming is Sarge, is available. And the Commonwealth does not agree, nevertheless, that he was Sarge and I don't believe he was. But we have no objection to Officer Boston or Detective Ryan or former officer Ryan because they are expressly named and mentioned in Miss Jenkins' affidavit. THE COURT OFFICER: Ms. Jenkins is up, Your Honor. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Should I continue, Your Honor? Page 22. THE COURT: Sure. Who else do you want? MS. WOLKENSTEIN: I will continue. The other point I wanted to make about Richard Ryan is that he was also involved in the arrest of Ken Freeman in February of 1982, two months after the Faulkner shooting. The name of Detective Ryan, Richard M. Ryan, Badge number 9071, appears as the officer in charge of the arrest in which in Ken Freeman's house was found a .22 caliber pistol, explosives and various ammunition. We believe that this is extremely germane to this case. And Detective Ryan's name, who previously does not appear in any of the reports concerning this investigation and the prosecution of our client, nonetheless is clearly somebody, based on Pamela Jenkins' testimony, that is a link between not only trying to pressure witnesses to falsely identify Mr. Jamal as the shooter, but also involved in an investigation and arrest of a man who has died suspiciously. Ken Freeman, we heard at the PCRA hearing by witness Arnold Howard, was the source Page 23. of giving, Arnold Howard was the person who gave to Ken Freeman his license. It was Howard's license that was found on the body of Officer Faulkner when he was found shot that night. The fact that a license belonging to some other person, not Mr. Jamal, not his brother Billy Cook, was found on the person of Officer Faulkner, was also Brady material and that material was never turned over to the defense. The first time we heard of this was from Arnold Howard, and then it was confirmed in this Court before this Court in the PCRA hearing in August of '95 by a prosecution witness, Detective, former Detective Edward D'Amato. He confirmed that the reason that he was questioning Arnold Howard that night was because of the fact that Arnold Howard's license or temporary license or application for a license was found on Officer Faulkner's body. Howard testified that Freeman was the source of that. Freeman is unavailable to us, Your Honor, because he died under very strange circumstances. We understand that he died, he was brought to a hospital in a police vehicle, gagged, bound, naked, to a hospital. And the Page 24. death certificate indicates he died at the age of 31 of natural causes of a heart attack. The interesting date of this, Your Honor, as well, is that the date of his death was May 14th, 1985: The night of the bombing of Osage Avenue. These particular points linked to Detective Richard Ryan, who previously was unknown to the defense, despite the fact that he obviously engaged in this investigation, was likely there that night, is all Brady material, all information that we should have had at the time of the trial. Information that we should have had in 1995 when we had the PCRA hearing. It is information that should have been disclosed in the past two years in which we have been on appellate review. All of this material, by the Brady versus Maryland and Kyles versus Whitley, is material that is the obligation of the prosecution to turn over to the defense. MS. FISK: Your Honor, with regard to the second half of Ms. Wolkenstein's presentation... let me start -- THE COURT: The second half. MS. FISK: The statement taken from Page 25. Mr. Howard by the police in 1981, the day after Officer Faulkner was murdered, makes clear that he is being questioned because his license was found at the time of the shooting. THE COURT: Wait. MS. FISK: That is a statement which was part of discovery, disclosed to defense counsel, and following Mr. Jamal's arrest when discovery was provided. This is not something that was secret or unknown. Mr. Howard was interviewed by police and his interview was disclosed to the defense. He was not called to trial because, frankly, there is nothing that he said in that statement which was at all relevant. Mr. Howard testified at proceedings before Your Honor in 1995 and was found, Your Honor, to be an incredible witness with regard to many things, including, I suspect, and I believe the Order makes clear, his describing Mr. Freeman having been at the homicide the night of the shooting because his description of Mr. Freeman is buttressed by his allegation under oath before Your Honor that in 1981 he and Mr. Freeman participated in a line-up in a Page 26. line-up facility at the PAB, which he described, and which has not now or ever existed. He described in fact the line-up facility which exists up at the Detention Center. But his testimony very clearly described a line-up facility at the PAB in the first of the 72 hours in which he said he was held in custody by the police and taken from district to district to district and released after three days. He described a line-up being conducted at the Police Administration Building, a physical impossibility because the facility he described does not exist; and testimony was presented to Your Honor that it does not exist. In addition, the Commonwealth presented evidence at that proceeding in 1995 before Your Honor that Mr. Howard was signed in at a particular date and time when he came into the Police Administration Building, and was signed out two hours later, which also clearly showed that his testimony that he was held in custody and transferred as a prisoner in custody from place to place to place for three days was untrue. For Counsel to now get up here and say Page 27. well, other things became relevant because the witness who testified who has been found completely incredible by this Court makes it relevant is simply bootstrapping one lie on top of another. Nevertheless, because Ms. Jenkins mentions Officer Ryan in her affidavit with regard to efforts that he made with regard to her, and her referring to him as someone present at the scene when Officer Faulkner was murdered, we have no objection to Officer Ryan being called. I reserve the right to object when he is called to, to object to questions which in the Commonwealth's position is beyond the scope of this hearing. But the Commonwealth agrees with Ms. Wolkenstein that with regard to Ms. Jenkins' claims regarding Detective Ryan, we have no objection to him being called. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: There is only one problem with what Ms. Fisk had to say, which is that the essential point about Howard's testimony and Howard's report is that the report that was submitted to the defense was false. That's point number one. It indicated in there Page 28. that this license was found in Billy Cook's car. It was from the prosecution's own witness, from one of their own investigating detectives, Edward D'Amato, that we heard that in fact this license was found on the body of Officer Faulkner. That was said by Mr. Howard that is true, but it is the prosecution's own witness who said because this license was found on the body of Officer Faulkner, that he was questioning Arnold Howard. THE COURT: Well, you see why I need further clarification from the Supreme Court. If you people can't agree with what the Supreme Court means by that, what you say is ambiguous, it's ambiguous to me, too. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: I am disputing the factual rendition, not whether or not -- THE COURT: I know what you are disputing. That's why I say, after we have the hearing today and you have Pamela Jenkins off, you people go back up to the Supreme Court and get a clarification of just who could be testifying here. Okay. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Those three witnesses that I just went through and some Page 29. related matters to them deal with some of the specifics, one of the sets of specific allegations that Pamela Jenkins' made which is in her signed statement, her signed statement. MS. FISK: We have no objection to that testimony being taken today, Your Honor. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: We issued a subpoena on the District Attorney's Office for them to release the entire file on Mr. Jamal's case on the investigation into the death of Officer Faulkner and on the prosecution of Mr. Jamal. We make this application because we believe as I have already stated that there is substantial Brady material there, information concerning witness coercion, witness manipulation, falsifying statements, and missing witnesses. And witnesses who provided initially true statements, such as Mr. Singletary, as to having seen the actual shooter that day, not Mr. Jamal, not his brother, and then the shooter run away. We also have asked the prosecution to produce Cynthia White. We believe that Cynthia White is in the protection and custody of the Police Department and we believe that the last time she was seen was actually in the presence Page 30. of Police Officer Ryan and former police officer Tom Ryan. And we request again that the prosecution produce her, or at least give us the information on where to locate her. We have been looking for her for several years and we have not been able to find her. We believe at this point that she is being protected by the police. MS. FISK: Your Honor, I note that in the brief filed by the defense this week, there is an averment that they have received information or have evidence that Ms. White was seen this year, 1997 is what is said in the brief, in the presence of police personnel. I would ask Counsel to please present that testimony and provide it to give us assistance in attempting to locate Miss White on behalf of defense. And I would have no objection to their presenting evidence with regard to her last known whereabouts so we could assist them. We do not have access or ability to provide or present Ms. White in this Courtroom. THE COURT: Okay. Now do you see why I have to go back to the Supreme Court? I don't know all of these factors that you are talking Page 31. about. Go back up and let the Supreme Court lay it out clearly which witnesses you can present. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Pamela Jenkins, again, Your Honor, why we think that dealing with the question of Cynthia White is entirely relevant to and actually been ordered by the Supreme Court, is because Pamela Jenkins' statement indicates quite clearly that she learned from Cynthia White that Cynthia White feared for her life from police officers. Having to do with testifying, you know, for, for the prosecution, for the police against Mr. Jamal. And that she feared for her life in connection with that testimony. The whole question of Cynthia White, who as I said was a primary or main witness, and who we also -- THE COURT: You keep referring to her as the main witness. As far as I am concerned, she was not the main -- MS. WOLKENSTEIN: I won't quibble, Your Honor, over whether she was primary or main, but she certainly was a witness. She certainly was a central witness. There were three witnesses from the prosecution here. She was the only witness, Your Honor, who testified Page 32. that she saw Mr. Jamal with a gun. No other witness ever said they saw a gun in Mr. Jamal's hands. For that reason alone, I believe the fact is that she is somewhat different and unique and was relied on by the prosecution as accurate. We also believe that Cynthia White was a police informant. And that is also something that will come out in the course of this hearing. And we believe that is totally germane. And certainly if she was a police informant, that is Brady material and should have been disclosed to us. And the fact that it is Brady material and is absolutely critical to the question of whether or not Mr. Jamal had a fair trial has been shown by the Carter case, the recent reversal on the charges against Mr. Carter, who was incarcerated for some 13 years on a life sentence on murder charges. And it was clear that the fact that it was not known to the prosecution, not known to the defense, that the main witness, who I will say right here was Pamela Jenkins, was paid for, was not heard, she was not paid as an informant in that but she was actually paid to find Mr. Carter, was the Page 33. basis on which that case was reversed. I also want to make the point that the question of not disclosing informants and the fact that a witness is an informant for the prosecution or for the police is grounds for a new trial, which is central and the main reason why after 27 years Geronimo Pratt, a former Black Panther party member, like Mr. Jamal, who was convicted unjustly for murder, like Mr. Jamal, for a crime he did not commit, like Mr. Jamal, was finally released on an order granting a new trial based upon the fact that for 27 years, despite numerous, I believe a half a dozen habeas corpus, comparable PCRA petitions, Federal habeas corpus proceedings, the District Attorney's Office kept a secret from the defense of the fact that their witness, one of their main witnesses against Mr. Pratt, was a police informant. So this question of police informant and the relationship of Cynthia White to the police is extremely relevant to this case and relevant to and absolutely on point with what it means by saying that testimony should be taken with reference to Pamela Jenkins. Page 34. MS. FISK: Your Honor, I would note that there is no allegation in the affidavit signed by Ms. Jenkins that Cynthia White is a police informant. Nor is there any proof. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: That is not accurate. MR. BURNS: Your Honor, Geronimo Pratt? Let's try to return to reality. And I could understand Your Honor's wanting to have some clarification from the Supreme Court, but I think, and I want to suggest, Your Honor, that in order to save you time it might be more beneficial to hear all the witnesses who were actually mentioned in the Pamela Jenkins affidavit now. Not to the extent they talk about things like Howard or Freeman or Singletary, things that are not mentioned in the affidavit, but we can at least hear from the people who were actually mentioned in the affidavit -- or the so-called affirmation: They call it an affirmation -- that was actually presented to the Supreme Court, which is actually referred to anywhere in their Order. Beyond that, certainly we should exclude all the other, irrelevant material that Page 35. is being brought in from the four corners of the earth. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: In the affirmation of Pamela Jenkins, paragraph 4 -- this is from Pamela -- I know that Cynthia White worked as a prostitute in the Center City area, specifically at Locust and 13th Street, during 1980 and 1981, and that she was a prostitute, police informant, and turned tricks for the police officers in the district. We certainly did, Pamela certainly made the statement already that Cynthia White, also known as Lucky, was a police informant. Okay? So we are requesting that the subpoena that was served on the District Attorney's Office for release of the entirety of their files be -- THE COURT: Well, you go back up to the Supreme Court and see if that's what they meant. MS. FISK: Your Honor, I would note that the Supreme Court denied the defense request for additional discovery in this matter. THE COURT: That's why I am confused about the whole thing. Go back up to the Page 36. Supreme Court. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: That is absolutely inaccurate. THE COURT: You have plenty of time today to do it. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: The Order from the Supreme Court where it relates to discovery is very specific. And it relates to discovery concerning the Batson issue. THE COURT: Well, I don't -- MS. WOLKENSTEIN: That is very clear, Your Honor. THE COURT: Yes. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: In their Order -- I will read it to the Court -- THE COURT: I could read it myself, Counselor. Counselor, please, don't waste my time. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: It makes it clear. THE COURT: Counselor, we both can't talk at the same time. This Court reporter can't take us both down at the same time. Now, I am telling you right now I am only going to hear your first witness Pamela Jenkins now. You go back up to the Supreme Page 37. Court today. We will keep him here locally, we will keep whatever witnesses you need, we will have them ready for you. If the Supreme Court says well, I want you to hear this witness, this witness -- or name them down, I don't care. (Discussion was held off the record at this time.) THE COURT: So don't waste my time. You are wasting my time. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: We will right now just stop. There are certainly many more subpoenas and many more issues, but we would like to call Pamela Jenkins. THE COURT: Oh, I know. You take it up with the Supreme Court, how many subpoenas they are going to allow you to issue. Come on. Where is she? Bring Pamela Jenkins in. MR. SCHOBER: Your Honor, one moment, please. My name is Henry Schober. I am representing Pamela Jenkins in this hearing. I am from the Law Offices of Michael Farrell. We represent her in her Pennsylvania charges. I would like an opportunity to speak with her before she testifies. Page 38. THE COURT: She is in there, go ahead. (Pause.) MR. SCHOBER: Thank you. (Pause) - - - - - Pamela Jenkins, having been duly sworn, - - - - - MR. WEINGLASS: May I proceed? THE COURT: Sure. - - - - - DIRECT EXAMINATION - - - - - BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Good morning, Miss Jenkins. A. Good morning. Q. You are going to have to speak loudly into the microphone. A. Good morning. Q. Thank you. Miss Jenkins, where do you presently reside? A. I am in P.I.C.C. correctional facility. Q. Is that here in the City of Philadelphia? A. Yes. Q. And how long have you been at P.I.C.C.? Page 39. Pamela Jenkins - Direct A. About two-and-a-half months. Q. Since sometime in April? A. Right, yes. Q. And directing your attention to the year 1981, where did you reside at that time? A. 3410 North Sydenham Street. Q. In the City of Philadelphia? A. Yes. Q. And how old were you in 1981? A. About 15, between 14 -- between 15 and 16. Q. And were you in school at that time or -- A. Yes. Q. Or were you employed? A. I was in school. Q. Do you recall what school you attended in 1981? A. Simon Gratz. Q. And directing your attention to the early morning hours of December 9th, 1981, were you at or near the intersection of 13th and Locust Street here in the City of Philadelphia? A. No, I was not. Q. Did you at that time and place witness a shooting? A. No, I did not. Page 40. Pamela Jenkins - Direct Q. Did you in December of 1981 know a Philadelphia police officer by the name of Tom Ryan? A. Yes, I did. Q. And who was Tom Ryan in 1981? A. He was a truancy officer that had picked me up from truancy from Simon Gratz and a Philadelphia cop. Q. He had arrested you? MS. FISK: I'm sorry. And a Philadelphia cop? Is that what you said? THE WITNESS: Yeah. Yeah, he arrested me. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Did he arrest you as a truant officer? A. Yes, he did. Q. And by December 9th of 1981, could you describe for the Court what your relationship was with Tom Ryan? A. I was sleeping with Tom Ryan; I was his informant. Q. Yes. Did you say you were sleeping with Officer Ryan? A. Yes, I was. Q. And you were also an informant? A. Yes. Q. Were you being paid by him for information? Page 41. Pamela Jenkins - Direct A. Yes, I was. Q. And during the time that you were sleeping with him and he was a Philadelphia police officer, in 1981, how old were you? A. About 15. About 15. Between 15 and 16, I ain't sure. Q. Now, sometime shortly after December 9th of 1981, the time of the shooting of Officer Faulkner, did you have occasion to meet with Officer Tom Ryan? A. Yes, I did. Q. And approximately when and where did that occur? A. Germantown -- Germantown and, uhh, let me see... Germantown... it was in front of the Sunshine Inn, I think that's Germantown and Westmoreland, if I am not mistaken. Q. Right. And, I'm sorry, you are going to have to speak a little louder. A. Between Germantown and Westmoreland, in front of the Sunshine Inn. Q. And do you recall what time of day it was that you met with him there? A. It was at night, evening time, just turning dark. Q. And do you recall what day of the week it was? Page 42. Pamela Jenkins - Direct A. It was a Saturday. Q. Was this the Saturday following the shooting on December 9th, 1981? A. Yes, it was. Q. So it would be about three days later? A. Yes. Q. Was officer Ryan in uniform when you met with him? A. No, he was in plainclothes. Q. And did you and he remain at that location where you met or did you go somewhere else? A. We went down to the central district. Q. And where is the central district? A. That's at, uhh, 8th Street, I can't tell you the exact address. Q. 8th Street here in Philadelphia? A. Right. Q. And it is a police -- A. Police station. Q. It is at the police headquarters? A. Yes. Q. And Tom Ryan went with you to the police headquarters? A. Yes, he did. Q. How long did you remain there at the police Page 43. Pamela Jenkins - Direct headquarters? A. We got there about 7:00, we left out about 10:00. Q. For about three hours? A. Right. Q. And during the time that you were there with Officer Ryan, did you have any conversation with any police officers? A. Richard Ryan. Q. With Richard Ryan? A. Yes. Q. And did that conversation take place in an office or in a cell or where? A. In, umm, like a -- interrogation room. Q. And who was present in the interrogation room? A. Tom Ryan and Richard Ryan. Q. And did they talk to you about this case? A. Yes, they did. Q. And did the name Mumia come up? A. Yes. Q. Who mentioned that? A. Tom Ryan and Richard Ryan. Q. And what did they say in connection with Mumia? A. They just told me -- well, in other words, Page 44. Pamela Jenkins - Direct they were saying that it was a shootin' and that Mumia had did it. And they was making slurs across me, trying to make, you know, trying to pressure me into saying I was somewhere that I wasn't. Q. Did they want to pressure you to say that you saw Mumia shoot the officer? A. Yes, they did. Q. Did you think they were trying to get you to lie? A. Yes, I do. Q. And what was there about that evident interrogation that gave you that impression? A. Because they kept asking me, you know, was I there. They kept being persistent, pushing it. And Ryan know I wasn't there, and they knew I wasn't there. So that's what I assume, it was pressure, if they are going to keep asking me the same question over and over again and I am telling them no I wasn't there. Q. And you were there for three hours? A. About three hours. Q. Could you describe for the Court what Detective Richard Ryan looks like? A. Umm, he's like heavyset -- well, back then or now? Page 45. Pamela Jenkins - Direct Q. Then. A. Okay, he was like, he wasn't as heavy as he is now. He was like about medium build, brownish hair. Q. Were you shown a photograph of him? A. Yes, I was. Q. Did you identify him? A. Yes, I did. Q. Have you seen -- MS. FISK: I would ask access to that photograph that was shown to her, please. MR. WEINGLASS: Yes. (Pause) (Discussion was held off the record at MR. WEINGLASS: I have one for Counsel. One may be marked and shown to the witness (handing). Would you mark this as the original and show it to Counsel? That is the original. (Photograph was marked Defendant's MS. FISK: Oh, yes, I see it. Thank you. THE COURT OFFICER: Your Honor? THE COURT: No. Page 46. Pamela Jenkins - Direct BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Showing you what has been marked D-l for identification: Is that a copy of the photograph that you were shown? A. Yes, it is. Q. And who is that a photograph of? A. Richard Ryan. Q. In the period of time prior to that meeting with Detective Ryan and Officer Tom Ryan, had Tom Ryan paid you for information? A. Yes, he did. Q. Did you think you were being asked to lie for money? A. Yes. Q. Did you agree to lie? A. No, I did not. Q. Did Officer Tom Ryan indicate to you the names of other officers who were present at the scene of the shooting? A. Yes, he did. Q. Do you recall who he mentioned? A. Boston, O'Neil, Sarge. Q. I'm sorry, could you say that again? A. Boston, Sarge, O'Neil. Q. Boston? Sarge? Page 47. Pamela Jenkins - Direct A. Sarge, O'Neil. Q. O'Neil. Now also directing your attention back to 1981, did you know then an individual by the name of Cynthia White? A. Yes, I did. Q. Did you know her by any other name? A. Lucky. Q. And how long prior to December of 1981 had you known Cynthia White or Lucky? A. I knew her way -- about a year, a couple years before that. Q. Did you know what Cynthia White or Lucky did for a living? A. Prostitution. Q. To your knowledge, did she have any relationship to the police? A. Yes. Q. What was that? A. Prostitution. Q. Was she providing information to the police? A. Sometimes. MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: Don't lead your witness, please. It is your witness. MR. WEINGLASS: Okay. Page 48. Pamela Jenkins - Direct BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Now, to your knowledge back then in 1981, in what part of the City did she work? A. Central. Center City, central. Q. Would that include the area of Locust Street and 13th? A. Yes, it does. Q. Now, sometime shortly after December 9th of 1981, did you have occasion to have a conversation with Cynthia White about her role in this case? A. Yes, I did. Q. Could you relate to the Court what that conversation was? A. First time I ran into her she was scared. The second time she was in fear for her life from the police. Q. Had she told you that? A. Yes, she did. Q. She was in fear for her life from the police? A. Yes. Q. And what became of Cynthia White? A. She disappeared. Q. Do you know where she went? A. No, I don't. Q. Now, after Cynthia White disappeared, did you Page 49. Pamela Jenkins - Direct ever have occasion to talk to Officer Tom Ryan again about Cynthia White and her disappearance? A. About her disappearance? No. I talked to him because he wanted me to find her for him. Q. He wanted you to find Cynthia White? A. For him. Q. Did he pay you to do that? A. Yeah; he gave me $150. MR. WEINGLASS: May I have this document marked D-2? THE COURT OFFICER: (Handing.) MS. FISK: Thank you. (Affirmation of Pamela Jenkins was marked THE COURT OFFICER: So marked. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Ms. Jenkins, showing you a document, a three-page document that has been marked D-2 for identification, would you look on page 2 of that document, at the bottom of the document. A. (Witness complies with request.) Q. Does your signature appear there? A. Yes, it does. Q. And did you sign this document on January 9th, Page 50. Pamela Jenkins - Direct 1997? A. Yes, I did. Q. And looking at the bottom of page 1: Do your initials appear there? A. Yes. Q. And did you review this document before you signed it? A. Yes, I did. Q. And have you reviewed it again before today's hearing? A. Yes, I did. Q. Is this document true? A. Yes, it is. Q. When did you last see Cynthia White, or Lucky? A. Umm, around the beginning of this year. Q. And do you recall where you saw her? A. Umm, 1326 13th Street, at Yates house. MS. FISK: I'm sorry, say it again, please? THE WITNESS: 1326 13th Street. MS. FISK: You said something after that. THE WITNESS: Yates house. Yates house. MS. FISK: Yates? Page 51. Pamela Jenkins - Direct THE WITNESS: Y-A-T-E-S. MS. FISK: Thank you. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. And when you saw Cynthia White there, did you talk to her? A. I talked -- no, she act like she seen a ghost and, umm, she ran out the door and got into Ryan's truck. Q. Now let me make sure I understand this correctly. You were inside the house? A. Yes, I was. Q. Did she then enter the house? A. She was already in the house. Q. And what happened when you saw her? A. When I walked in there she act like she saw a ghost, and next thing I know she was running out the door. When I got to the door she was getting in Ryan truck, Tom Ryan. Q. Tom Ryan's truck? A. (The witness shook her head affirmatively.) Q. Officer Tom Ryan? A. Officer Tom Ryan. Q. And that was in or about March of this year? A. Yes, it was. MS. FISK: I'm sorry, March of this Page 52. Pamela Jenkins - Direct year? I apologize. March of this year, ma'am? THE WITNESS: Yes. MS. FISK: Thank you. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. And could you describe Tom Ryan's truck? A. It's red, it is a red truck with, umm, now he got the frame over it in the back (indicating). Q. It is like a pickup truck with a frame over the bed of the pickup? A. Yeah. Q. And it's red? A. Right. Q. What time of day or night was this? A. Umm... about 9:30, ten o'clock. Q. In the evening? A. Right. In the evening. Q. Was Tom Ryan alone in that truck? A. No, he wasn't, he was with Richard Ryan. Q. He was with Detective Richard Ryan? A. Yes, he was. Q. And in March of 1997 you saw Detective Richard Ryan and officer Ryan drive away with Cynthia White? A. Yes, I did. Q. What were you doing in the Yates house that night? Page 53. Pamela Jenkins - Direct A. I was helping look for her. Q. Helping to look for Cynthia? A. Yeah. Q. Who were you helping? A. Umm, Don. Q. And who is Don? A. He is an investigator for your office. Q. For the defense? A. Yeah. Q. So in March of 1997 you were working with Don, the investigator for the defense? A. Yes. Q. In trying to find Cynthia? A. Right. Q. And you found her in the company of police officers? A. Yes. Q. Did you write out a handwritten statement to that effect? A. Yes, I did. MR. WEINGLASS: May I have this marked D-3 (handing)? MS. FISK: Do you have another copy of this? MR. WEINGLASS: Yes, I do, I have Page 54. Pamela Jenkins - Direct several copies (handing). MS. FISK: Thank you. (Handwritten statement was marked BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Yes, showing you D-3, which is a one-page document (handing), handwritten, do you recognize this document? A. Huh? Q. Do you recognize this document? A. Yes, I do. Q. And in whose handwriting is this document? A. Mine. Q. And who signed this document? A. I did. Q. Did you date it? A. Yes, I did. Q. What's the date? A. 3-9-97. Q. Is the statement on this document -- have you read it since? A. No. Q. Do you want to take a minute to look at it. (Pause) THE WITNESS: Yeah, it's right. Page 55. Pamela Jenkins - Direct BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Is it accurate? A. Yes, it is. Q. Okay. Now, before we move off of Cynthia White: Back in 1981, other than prostitution, did Cynthia White have any relationship with the police that you know of? A. You mean other than tricking? Q. Yes. A. I mean she gave them information, if that's what you are talking about. Q. She was an informant? A. Yes, she was. Q. In 1981? A. Yes. Q. Now, you said other than tricking. What do you mean by tricking? A. What do I mean by what? Q. Tricking. A. Prostitution, same thing. Q. And she was performing acts of prostitution with the police? A. Yes, she was. Q. Was she, incidentally, being paid as an informant, to your knowledge? Page 56. Pamela Jenkins - Direct A. Like I told you before, I can't say that because I never seen her get paid for the information. Q. I see. But you knew she was providing information? A. Yes, I did. Q. Now, incidentally, in 1981 and '82, did you know someone named Veronica Jones? A. Not I did not. Q. Now, Miss Jenkins, are you now facing charges? A. Yes, I am. Q. In the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania? A. Yes, I am. Q. And do those charges include felonies? A. Yes, they do. Q. And when were you charged with felonies? A. I was charged with felony on June the 5th of -- Q. Of 1997? A. Of 1997. Q. About 21 days ago? A. Yes. Q. Prior to that time you weren't charged with felonies? A. No, I was not. Page 57. Pamela Jenkins - Direct Q. And the felonies that you were charged with on June 5th, did they involve events that occurred in an earlier time? A. Yes, they did. Q. When did those events allegedly occur? A. They occurred on the, on the beginning of March. That's when the picture -- on the beginning of March I called because the picture was hot. Downtown. I called the cop -- I called the Feds, and, umm, they came to my house and, umm, they told me if I took them to get the picture back, I would not be -- they was -- I would not be arrested. I got I get locked up for retail, they throw the retail, they throw the retail out, okay. I was in jail for extradition to Jersey. On June the 5th they came to P.I.C.C. and recharged me for that picture. Q. I see. Let me just try to clarify that somewhat. Are you saying that in March of 1997 you went to the Federal authorities? A. Yes, I did. Q. About a stolen painting? A. They came to me, I didn't go to them. They came to my house. Q. Had you called them earlier? A. Yes, I did. Page 58. Pamela Jenkins - Direct Q. So you contacted the Federal authorities? A. Yes, I did. Q. And then they came to your house? A. Yes, I did. Q. And you cooperated with them? A. Yes. Q. And they regained the painting? A. Yes. Q. And from March 5th or 6th when you did that, until June 5th or 6th, you were not arrested? A. No, I was not. Q. You were not charged? A. No, I was not. Q. You were living here in the City of Philadelphia? A. Yes, I was. Q. You weren't hiding? A. No, I wasn't. Q. And they told you that they weren't going to charge you with this? A. Yes. Q. And then on June 5th or 6th they charged you? A. Yes, they did. Q. Do you know why they did that? A. My feelings is due to this case they did it. Page 59. Pamela Jenkins - Direct You know, that's the way I feel about the situation. Because they can -- it is not like I was hiding. I was still living at the same address. And my -- I think it's due to this case. MR. WEINGLASS: Your Honor, I would like to point out as the Court has noted there, that on May 30th the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania ordered the testimony of Pamela Jenkins and within one week she was charged with felonies where she wasn't charged before and even cooperated with the police in recovering stolen property. I just think that ought to be in the record. Given the fact of what happened with Veronica Jones, it is just another instance of retaliation against a witness who comes forward for Mr. Jamal. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Since you have been in custody at P.I.C.C., have you seen Detective Ryan? A. No. Q. Did you see Detective Ryan shortly after these charges were leveled against you? A. No. I seen Ryan before. I was downtown, I seen him before I even got to P.I.C.C. But after the, after these charges came I haven't seen him. Page 60. Pamela Jenkins - Direct Q. Did he say anything to you when you saw him downtown? A. Richard Ryan? Q. Yes. A. Oh, he said yeah, I finally, finally, you finally graduated, we gonna sit their ass down. Q. Richard Ryan said that to you? A. Yes, he did. Q. When did he say that to you? A. When I, umm, when they was arresting me. Q. And where did this take place? A. First I was at, I was at 22nd and Pennsylvania. And then they took me upstairs to the detective bureau, and that's where he was at. And we had some words. But his words when I first came in there, you finally graduated to the big league, we gonna sits that ass down. So we had some words and I just told him fuck him and I just went on in the cell. Q. Did Detective Ryan on that occasion say anything to you about your having mentioned his name? A. Oh, yeah, I keep my name out of his mouth. Q. He said that to you? A. Yeah, keep my name out of his mouth, off the news or -- Page 61. Pamela Jenkins - Direct Q. This was after you had signed the affirmation to the Supreme Court? A. Right. Q. In January of '97? A. Yes. Q. Did you take that as a threat? A. Did I take that as a threat? Q. Yes. A. No, because they know they can't move me. Q. Incidentally, did you know a person who was known by the nickname of Peanuts? A. Yes, I do. Q. And who is Peanuts? A. She is one of Tom Ryan's prostitutes. Q. Do you know her name to be Joan Downs? A. I don't know of her name to be Joan Downs, I just know the last name Downs, not Joan. Q. Right, you know her as Downs? A. Right. Q. And that is Peanuts? A. That's Peanut, that is her nickname on the streets. Q. And she was a prostitute for Officer Tom Ryan? A. Yes. Q. Now, you have seen Detective Richard Ryan Page 62. Pamela Jenkins - Direct since April of this year when you were in custody and you related the conversation that you had with him. A. (The witness shook her head affirmatively.) Q. Have you seen officer Tom Ryan? A. No, I haven't. Q. Now, in 1994, did you have occasion to testify at several arbitration hearings for Police Officer John Baird? A. Yes, I did. Q. And was there more than one hearing in his arbitration? A. Yes, there was. But they postponed a lot of them. Q. Did you testify at one of the first hearings that actually went forward? A. Yes, I did. Q. Did you testify for Officer Baird? A. Yes, I did. Q. Was that testimony that you gave for Officer Baird truthful? A. No, it was not. Q. At that time were you being paid by Officer Baird? A. Yes, I was. Q. Did you later after giving that testimony meet Page 63. Pamela Jenkins - Direct with agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation? A. Yes, I did. Q. And did you agree to return to that hearing or arbitration at a later date and testify truthfully? A. Yes, I did. Q. And did you later appear and testify truthfully? A. Yes, I did. Q. What became of Officer Baird? A. He now serving 13 years. Q. Did the United States Department of Justice then present you as a witness to a Federal grand jury? A. Yes, they did. Q. And did that involve allegations of corruption of the Philadelphia Police Department in the 39th District? A. Yes, it did. Q. And as a result of your appearance before a Federal grand jury, did the grand jury vote indictments? MS. FISK: I object to that question, Your Honor. There were probably hundreds of witnesses and I doubt the indictments were based solely on this witness' testimony. Page 64. Pamela Jenkins - Direct MR. WEINGLASS: Okay, I will withdraw the question and reframe it. THE COURT: Okay. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Did that grand jury, after you had testified, and others, vote indictments against Philadelphia police officers? A. Yes, they did. Q. And was one of those indictments against officer Tom Ryan? A. Yes, it was. Q. And do you know how his case was disposed of? A. He turned state's evidence. Q. Did he enter a plea of guilty? A. Guilty to, guilty to the, umm, the charge with, umm, what's his name... Akeem. MS. FISK: Akeem? THE WITNESS: Yeah, guilty to the charge of Akeem but not with the corruption. He got 10 months. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Now with respect to Akeem, that's a nickname for a gentleman named Colbert -- I'm sorry. (Discussion was held off the record among defense Counsel.) Page 65. Pamela Jenkins - Direct MR. WEINGLASS: I will withdraw that. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Incidentally, did the FBI put a wire on your person in order to record a conversation between you and Officer Baird? A. Yes, they did. Q. And did you do that? A. Yes. Q. Was there ever a time when the Federal authorities were looking for you and Officer Baird hid you in a motel? A. Yes. MS. FISK: Your Honor, I object only because the relevancy with regard to Officer Baird's acts -- MR. WEINGLASS: Yes. MS. FISK: -- does not exist with regard to this witness' testimony of Officer Ryan's contact with the witness in the context of this case. MR. WEINGLASS: Yes. THE COURT: Not only that, he is leading. It is his witness, he shouldn't have to lead. MS. FISK: Well, yes, beyond that. Page 66. Pamela Jenkins - Direct MR. WEINGLASS: Your Honor, with respect to Officer Baird and the objection that was made, the fact that the police, that police in the City of Philadelphia hid Ms. Jenkins when the FBI was looking to serve her with a subpoena is relevant to the fact that we believe -- and she has testified to this -- that officers of the City of Philadelphia are hiding Cynthia White when they know that we are looking for her. THE COURT: Well, that is a supposition you're making. Prove it. That is a supposition. MR. WEINGLASS: Well, Your Honor, that the police hid a witness from the FBI. THE COURT: Not necessarily the police. Baird may have hid her. MR. WEINGLASS: Yes. THE COURT: Well, Baird did it. Does that mean the entire Police Department is corrupt, they hide witnesses? MR. WEINGLASS: No, but Baird was a partner of Ryan and Ryan was working with Richard Ryan. THE COURT: I understand that, I Page 67. Pamela Jenkins - Direct understand all of that. But it was Baird who did that. This, you say the Police Department. It's like the time when they investigated the judges and they took action against them. Does that mean every judge in the City of Philadelphia is corrupt? MR. WEINGLASS: Well, I don't want to -- THE COURT: Well, for what you are trying to do, I sustain the objection. Because it has no relevancy to the matter that's before me now. MR. WEINGLASS: What we have at this point is sworn testimony that Officer Tom Ryan, who has pled guilty -- MS. FISK: What we have is clear, it is on the record and it doesn't need to be repeated. MR. WEINGLASS: I am not making an allegation against all the police. The officer who brought her down to the Police Department pled guilty. And he brought her down in this case. He was involved in this case. Richard Ryan is involved in this case. THE COURT: Well, stick with Ryan, Page 68. Pamela Jenkins - Direct then. Stick with Ryan, what Ryan did. Stick with Ryan and what he did. MR. WEINGLASS: Okay, I will. THE COURT: Okay. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Who was Officer Tom Ryan's partner at the time of these events? MS. FISK: Which events? In 1994 when she testified? MR. WEINGLASS: No, in -- MS. FISK: Which events? MR. WEINGLASS: In the events that were the subject of the Federal investigation. THE COURT: Wait a while. THE WITNESS: Sergeant Jack Baird was his partner. MS. FISK: Jack. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Did Tom Ryan have any relationship with Baird? MS. FISK: Well, objection. THE COURT: Do you want to testify? MR. WEINGLASS: No, it is a question. THE COURT: It is a question. You are telling her the answer. If you want to testify take the stand and be sworn and testify as to Page 69. Pamela Jenkins - Direct what you know. Stop leading you're own witness, please. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Miss Jenkins, as you sit here today are you afraid? A. No, only for my daughter. Only for my daughters, that's all. Q. Pardon? A. Only for my kids, that's all. Q. Why are you afraid for your kids? A. Because look what they are doing to me. You know, you know, I get arrested for one thing and then barn, they charge me with another. And I know they retaliate, you know. And I know this in my heart because I done dealt with them before. They retaliated with me in Jersey, me sitting and sitting and waiting. Now they want to retaliate with this art picture. And this art picture had no bearings on this, but I am still sitting behind bars for it and I know they are retaliate. Q. And it is your belief that they are retaliating against you because you are testifying in this case? A. Yes, it is. Page 70. Pamela Jenkins - Direct MS. FISK: Asked and answered, Your Honor. THE COURT: Yes. THE WITNESS: Yes, it is. MR. WEINGLASS: I have nothing further. Thank you, Miss Jenkins. THE WITNESS: You're welcome. MS. FISK: May I inquire, Your Honor? THE COURT: Yes, sure. MS. FISK: Thank you. - - - - - CROSS-EXAMINATION - - - - - BY MS. FISK: Q. Ms. Jenkins, what is your middle name, please? A. Why? Q. Because I get to ask the questions. A. And I -- THE COURT: You have to answer. Please, if she asks you a question, answer it. THE WITNESS: Don't holler at me. Don't start hollering at me. THE COURT: Well, I am going to holler. THE WITNESS: No, you are not going to Page 71. Pamela Jenkins - Cross holler at me. THE COURT: Oh, do you want me to wipe out all the testimony? I will do that if you don't answer the questions that are given to you. THE WITNESS: My middle name is Denease. BY MS. FISK: Q. D-E-N-E-A-S-E? A. Yes. Q. And your date of birth is what? A. 9-1-65. Q. And your mother, ma'am, is Margaret Baker, is that your mother's name? THE WITNESS: Can I speak to my attorney, please? MS. FISK: Be my guest. MR. WEINGLASS: Your Honor, may we have a recess so that the witness could consult with her Counsel? THE COURT: He could go right up there and consult with her. (Discussion was held off the record at this time.) MR. SCHOBER: Your Honor, with respect Page 72. Pamela Jenkins - Cross to questions of my client about her mother, I would offer an objection. I don't know what the relevance would be with regard to this proceeding. THE COURT: Well. MR. SCHOBER: My client has some hesitancy to speak about her mother in these circumstances. THE COURT: Why should she have? MS. FISK: Your Honor, I am not asking any questions regarding the circumstances of this witness' mother, I am simply asking for an affirmation from this witness that her mother is indeed one Margaret Baker. That is the only question I am asking. THE COURT: Okay. The objection to that question is overruled. THE WITNESS: My mother name is Margaret Jenkins. BY MS. FISK: Q. Was she formerly Margaret Baker? A. I don't know what she under right now. Q. Were you born in Champaign, Illinois? A. Urbana, Illinois. Q. All right, now, ma'am, you told us that you Page 73. Pamela Jenkins - Cross attended Simon Gratz High School? A. Yes. Q. And for how long, ma'am, did you attend Simon Gratz High School? A. About, about two years. Off and on. Q. What school did you attend prior to Simon Gratz? If you recall. A. Umm, Gillespie. Q. Now, am I correct that when you attended Simon Gratz High School you certainly were registered and attended under your name, that being Pamela Jenkins? A. Yes. Q. Pam Denease Jenkins? A. Yes. Q. And with your date of birth September lst, 1965? A. Right. Q. And when you say you attended about two years off and on, you started, you went to the end of the year, you started the following year, and then you went for a period of time before you left; would that be fair to say? A. Yeah. Q. Okay. So over, you attended parts of two different school terms? And by school terms I refer Page 74. Pamela Jenkins - Cross to the September through June term. A. Yes. Q. And that sounds right to you, that you attended parts of two different school terms? A. Yes. Q. Now, you told us, ma'am, that you met Officer Thomas Ryan when you were at Simon Gratz High School? A. Yes. Q. Now, at the time you met him he was a police officer, ma'am? A. Yes, he was. Q. And at the time you met him he was not yet in plainclothes, would I be correct, he was a police officer in uniform? A. Yes. Q. Now, what you told us today is that you met Tom Ryan, you said he was a truancy officer and a Philly cop, he was in fact a Philadelphia uniformed police officer who was making truancy stops; is that correct? A. Yes. Q. All right. I mean he wasn't separately working as a truancy officer, he was a police officer, right? A. Yes. Page 75. Pamela Jenkins - Cross Q. And he was a uniformed police officer? A. Yes. Q. And the first time you met him, so I am clear, was when he, as a uniformed Philadelphia police officer, picked you up for truancy? A. Right. Q. And was that during the period of time that you were registered as a student at Simon Gratz High School? A. Yes. MR. WEINGLASS: Your Honor, I am going to object to this line of questions. Officer Ryan was wearing a uniform as a truant officer and they are asking the witness whether or not she knew what his status is as a police officer or a truancy officer. MS. FISK: The witness just said he was a police officer. MR. WEINGLASS: But she saw him in uniform as a truancy officer. MS. FISK: Do I get to cross-examine Mr. Weinglass as well? Because that is not what Miss Jenkins' said. And if I am permitted cross-examination -- THE COURT: The objection is Page 76. Pamela Jenkins - Cross overruled. This is cross-examination. She has a right to ask any questions that she wants. MR. WEINGLASS: She doesn't have a right to confuse the witness. THE COURT: That is for me to decide. You make your objection and I will rule on it. MR. WEINGLASS: My objection is she is confusing the witness. THE COURT: She is not, it is overruled. She is not confusing anybody. Except you. BY MS. FISK: Q. So I am clear: When Officer Ryan arrested you it was when he was a Philadelphia police officer? MR. WEINGLASS: Objection to the form of the question. He was a -- THE COURT: Objection is overruled. BY MS. FISK: Q. Ma'am? THE COURT: You could answer. BY MS. FISK: Q. You understood that question of you when I asked it a minute ago? A. He was a truancy police officer. Q. So he was a police officer? Page 77. Pamela Jenkins - Cross MR. WEINGLASS: Objection. Truancy officer. Asked and answered. THE COURT: Do you want to testify in this case? MR. WEINGLASS: No, the witness said it. THE COURT: All right, your objection is overruled. Go ahead. BY MS. FISK: Q. Was he in a Philadelphia police officer's car? A. He was in a paddy wagon. Q. In a what? A. A paddy wagon. Q. A police paddy wagon? A. Right. Q. A police wagon, Philadelphia Police Department paddy wagon? A. Right, yeah. Q. Okay. And he was a Philadelphia police officer working truancy, so far as you could tell, right? MR. WEINGLASS: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled, overruled. MS. FISK: Thank you. Page 78. Pamela Jenkins - Cross BY MS. FISK: Q. I just want to make sure, Miss Jenkins, that I am not confused, and I am not trying to confuse you. He was in a police paddy wagon, he was in a uniform. Did he have a gun, because he was a cop? A. Yeah, he had a gun. Q. And he picked you up for truancy? A. Right. Q. And he picked you up for truancy, was this outside Simon Gratz High School? A. Yes. Q. And would it be fair to say that that is in the area of Pulaski and Hunting Park? A. Right. Q. And on this first occasion when you met him and he picked you up and he was in the paddy wagon, was he with another uniformed officer? A. Yes, he was. Q. Do you remember who that officer was? A. I remember Sarge. Q. Sarge? A. Yeah. Q. And what is his -- Sarge is all you know him by, right? Is it that you know the person just by Sarge? Page 79. Pamela Jenkins - Cross A. Just by Sarge. Q. Do you know any other name? A. (The witness shook her head negatively.) Q. You are shaking your head no? A. No. Q. Okay. THE COURT: You can't shake your head because he has to take it down (indicating). He can't take that down. BY MS. FISK: Q. Was this, Miss Jenkins, was that the only time that Officer Ryan picked you up for truancy? A. Yes. Q. And that was, as I understand it, the very first time you met Officer Ryan? A. Yes. Q. All right. Now, following his picking you up for truancy outside Simon Gratz High School, when following that did you start becoming his informant, how many minutes, days, weeks, months? A. I can't recall that. Q. Well, did it happen the next day? A. No. Q. The next week? A. No. Page 80. Pamela Jenkins - Cross Q. Did it take a period of months after you first met him before you became his informant? A. It took a while. I mean we was more intimate before I became his informant, if that's what you want to know. Q. So you became intimate with him before you became his informant? A. Yeah. Q. When, then, in relation to when he arrested you on this first occasion for truancy, was it that you became intimate with him? A. I don't know exact period of time. I mean you are asking me something a long time ago. Q. Yes, ma'am. Did it happen that day or did it happen -- A. No. Q. -- weeks or months later? A. Months later, I don't know. Months, yeah. I don't know, I don't recall on that. Q. So it's at some months after the one time that he arrested you for truancy is when you became intimate with him? MR. WEINGLASS: Objection: The witness said a month later and she couldn't recall. Now Counsel is saying some months. Page 81. Pamela Jenkins - Cross THE COURT: Counselor, please, this is cross-examination. MR. WEINGLASS: Yes, but you can't distort the witness' answer. THE COURT: If you are going to testify and interrupt, I am just going to disqualify her entire testimony on direct. So don't interfere. She has a right to cross-examine. You had a right to present whatever you wanted to present. MR. WEINGLASS: But when the witness says one month -- THE COURT: No, when the witness said -- and I said shut up, please. Before I have to hold you in contempt. Don't try me again, please. Go ahead. BY MS. FISK: Q. Miss Jenkins, as best you are able to recall, what period of time after you became intimate with Officer Ryan was it that you then became his informant? A. Probably a year or so later, I guess. Q. Okay. Now, in terms of the murder of Officer Faulkner, as I understand your testimony, the Page 82. Pamela Jenkins - Cross Saturday after Officer Faulkner was murdered you met with Officer Ryan; is that correct? A. Yes. Q. All right, at that point in time, then, am I correct that you were already intimidate with Officer Ryan? A. Yes. Q. And you were already acting as an informant for Officer Ryan? A. Yes. Q. And for what period of time had you been, as best you can recall, intimate with him, or acting as an informant for him, on this Saturday following Officer Faulkner's murder? A. About a year, about a year. Q. All right. And for that period of a year prior to then Officer Faulkner's murder, you had been an informant for Police Officer Thomas Ryan; is that right? A. Yeah. Around that, a year or so. Q. Approximately, I am not pinning you down. But that Saturday after Officer Faulkner's murder was, you were at that point already an informant of Police Officer Thomas Ryan and had been for approximately, as you say, one year? Page 83. Pamela Jenkins - Cross A. Yeah, year or more. Q. All right, and you are certain of that? Yes, ma'am? A. Maybe longer, I don't know. Q. Maybe longer? A. Maybe longer, I can't give you an estimate, you know. I am just giving you around how much time it was. Q. Yes, ma'am. And it was that Saturday after Officer Faulkner was murdered that you and Officer Ryan went to the central district on, at night, and that's when you met with this other officer, right? A. Yes. Q. Now, I'm sorry, where did you say the central district was? A. It's in Center City.. Q. Yes. I thought -- A. I didn't say where it was. Q. Okay. When you said you went down to central district, where is it that you went? A. When, it used to be in 8th and Race. Q. Yes, ma'am. A. Okay, so that's, that's the circle, you know. Q. You mean the Roundhouse building? A. Yeah. Page 84. Pamela Jenkins - Cross Q. And is that the building that you went down to with Officer Ryan on this Saturday after Officer Faulkner was murdered? A. Yes. Q. Okay, 8th and Race. And do you recall where in that building you went where you and Officer Ryan then met with this additional police officer? A. We caught the el -- I know we got on the elevator. Q. Yes? A. So they got a bunch of offices up there. Q. Yes. You don't know which one you went to? A. I think on the left-hand side, about the second one from the left-hand side. Q. Left-hand side after you got off an elevator? A. Yeah. Q. Do you know if the office had a name on it? A. No. Q. Okay. Now, it is at that location that you and Officer Ryan met with an additional officer? A. Right. Q. Met an additional officer? A. Yes. Q. And that was the person whom you have identified as Detective Richard Ryan? Page 85. Pamela Jenkins - Cross A. Right. Q. And how is it that you know the name of the person in the photograph that you identified to be Detective Richard Ryan? A. Because of the questions they asked me when I was down there. But he was younger -- he was not, you know, like that big then. Q. Right. But how did you learn his name was Detective Richard Ryan? A. I knew his name. Q. How, before you met him on this Saturday? A. No, when I was -- this is how I was able to identify him. Q. Yes? A. Because they, they asked me about the picture, about -- Richard Ryan asked me the officers that was in the case. And I told him it was Tom Ryan and Richard Ryan. Q. I'm sorry, you said Richard Ryan asked you which officers were in the case? A. No, listen, listen, listen. Tom Ryan and Richard Ryan. Q. Yes, ma'am. A. Was the two officers -- Q. Yes? Page 86. Pamela Jenkins - Cross A. -- that I was in central detective with. Q. Right. And my question is how is it that you know that this man who is pictured in Defense Exhibit 1 (displaying) is named Richard Ryan? A. Oh, I remember his face, you know. Like I said, he wasn't as fat then. Q. Did he tell you his name, did someone tell you his name back then? A. I mean he told me his name when they introduced, okay. Q. Okay. And he told you his name was what? A. Richard Ryan. Q. Okay. That was my question. A. Oh, okay. Q. So back in 1981, on this Saturday after Officer Faulkner was killed; you and Officer Tom Ryan went to the PAB and you were then introduced to a man who identified himself to you as Richard Ryan? A. Yes. Q. Got you. Okay. Now, you told us that at some later time you met Cynthia White and talked to her about her fears? A. At some later time? Q. Yes, ma'am. A. What you mean? Explain what you're saying. Page 87. Pamela Jenkins - Cross Q. I will be happy to. As I understand it, you have told us how the Saturday after Officer Faulkner was murdered -- A. Hmm-hmm. Q. -- you had this meeting with Officer Tom Ryan and with Detective Richard Ryan? A. Right. Q. Okay. You also told us on direct examination -- A. Right. Q. -- that you knew Cynthia White? A. Right. Q. And that you had a conversation with Cynthia White? A. Right. Q. About her being scared and in fear of her life from the police? A. Right. Q. Was that conversation with Cynthia White after this meeting that you had with Officer Tom Ryan and Detective Richard Ryan? A. Yes, it was. Q. How long after? A. Umm... about a week or so, I guess. Q. So that would -- and I don't want to confuse Page 88. Pamela Jenkins - Cross you. Officer Faulkner was murdered on December the 9th, 1981. I don't have a calendar in front of me but the Saturday following that would be less than seven days thereafter? A. Okay. Q. So would it be fair to say that your conversation with Cynthia White took place, then, in December 1981? A. Yes. Q. Okay, still within the month of December? A. Hmm-hmm. Q. And still at that time -- and, I'm sorry, you can't say hmm-hmm. A. Yes. Q. Okay. And still at that time when you had been an informant or an intimate with Police Officer Ryan for a period, you can't be certain but approximately a year, maybe more? A. Right. Q. Okay. Now, did you report her comments to Officer Ryan? A. No, I did not. Q. Now, how long after that was it that Officer Ryan paid you $150 to locate Cynthia White? A. About... about three days later. About three Page 89. Pamela Jenkins - Cross to four days later. I am not really sure how many days it was. Q. Again would it be fair to say that was still in December 1981? A. Yes, it would. Q. Or maybe just going into January '82? Or was it definitely December of '81? A. You know, I can't really tell you about that. Q. Okay, but your best recollection is it was about three or four days after you spoke to Cynthia White? A. Yeah, that is my best recollection. Q. And you spoke to Cynthia White, approximately again, approximately one week after you met with Officer Thomas Ryan and Officer Richard Ryan? Is that right? A. Right. Q. Okay. Where were you in June and July 1982? (Pause) A. Hmm... June and July 1982... Q. Maybe I could relate that for you so you could put it into context. Do you recall when the trial against this Defendant for the murder of Officer Faulkner was held? A. No, I don't remember that. Page 90. Pamela Jenkins - Cross Q. You don't remember that trial being held? A. I remember the trial being held but I wasn't, you know. Q. You weren't what? A. I wasn't, you know, following it. Q. You weren't, all right, but you remember reading in the paper that it was occurring or that there was a trial? Do you understand my question? A. No. Q. The trial of this matter was conducted -- A. Right. Q. -- at some point, you know that? A. Right. Q. And you remember being aware of that, that it was on trial? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And do you know where you were living or whether or not you were in school at that time? Do you recall? A. No. Not right offhand. Q. Okay. Now, as I understand your testimony, you have told us that you last saw Cynthia White, that same person you spoke to in December 1981, the last time you saw her was you know at the beginning of this year and you signed a statement dated March Page 91. Pamela Jenkins - Cross the 9th of this year saying that you saw her that day; is that right? A. Yes. Q. Was it that day or the day before? MR. WEINGLASS: I think Counsel is misreading the document. March 7th is in the upper, left-hand side. MS. FISK: Oh, I'm sorry. I apologize. BY MS. FISK: Q. All right, you signed a document on March the 9th but it notes that on March the 7th of this year you saw Cynthia White? A. Right. Q. Yes, ma'am? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And there is no doubt in your mind that that was Cynthia, the same Cynthia White that you spoke to in December 1981? A. No. There is no doubt. Q. No doubt. Okay. Now, do you know -- strike that. Now, at that time on March the 7th, 1997, you have told us that the circumstances of your seeing Cynthia White was that you were helping the Page 92. Pamela Jenkins - Cross investigator on behalf of the defense look for Ms. White. Yes? A. Yes. Q. Were you hired for that purpose? A. No, I was not. Q. Were you being paid at all for that? A. No, I was not. Q. You were doing it for free? A. Yes. Q. And at that time you were out on a bench warrant; isn't that right? A. Out on what? Q. On a bench warrant: You had failed to appear for a proceeding on which you had been arrested and charged with retail theft in the City of Philadelphia? A. Probably. Q. Oh. Did the investigator you were working with know that? A. No. Q. Did you tell him that you had failed to appear at a proceeding? A. No. Q. Now, in addition... you have told us today that you believe the arrest upon you this month was Page 93. Pamela Jenkins - Cross retaliation, and I believe you then said in the course of your description that they retaliated in New Jersey as well? A. (The witness nodded her head affirmatively.) Q. Again you're shaking your head? A. Yeah, yeah. Q. Would you please tell us the nature of the retaliation and who retaliated upon you in New Jersey? A. They had, they had to be the defense because I stayed over here in P.I.C.C. and when I got, when I stayed over there in P.I.C.C. and then they had me sitting there and waiting and waiting for a court date. Then I got to get an attorney and as soon as I got the attorney I was out like the next day, you know. So what you mean when you say retaliate? Q. Well, that's what I am trying to find out. A. When I say retaliate, I was charged with fugitive from justice. Q. Yes, ma'am, you were in jail in New Jersey at some point some months back, right? A. But that didn't have nothing to do with this case. Q. In the course of your direct examination you said they retaliated on you in New Jersey? Page 94. Pamela Jenkins - Cross A. That was for the art picture there. Q. Oh, all right. That was for the arbitration? A. When I started working for, when I started helping the Feds, that was their way of keeping me in jail then. Q. When, back in 1994? A. Yeah. Q. All right. Ma'am, am I correct, Ms. Jenkins, that in August 1995 you were arrested in New Jersey for having a knife? A. Right. Q. Okay. And then in April '96 you were sentenced on that weapons possession to one year probation? A. Right. Q. Is this the retaliation you're talking about? A. No. Q. Or was it before August of '95 that you are talking about? A. No, I testified after that case. Q. You testified after that August of '95? A. I testified after that case for the arbitration. I don't know all the dates. Q. I am just trying to put things in context. You were arrested in New Jersey, would you agree with Page 95. Pamela Jenkins - Cross me that you were arrested in New Jersey for possessing a knife on August the 17th, 1995? A. Yes. Q. That date is correct? A. Right. Q. Okay, and your testimony today is that the testimony which you gave at the Jack Baird arbitration was after that date? A. I think so, yeah. Q. Because what you're claiming is that after that arrest you testified against Jack Baird? A. Right. Q. Admitted that you had lied at his first proceeding? A. That's right. Q. And then Jack Baird in some way retaliated against you; is that your testimony? A. Yes. Q. Ms. Jenkins, if the notes of testimony from the arbitration proceedings show that your testimony in the Jack Baird arbitration is, the first one was March 1994, and the second was November 1994, and your arrest for the knife was after the second arbitration, could you then explain how that arrest in August 1995 constituted a retaliation? You had Page 96. Pamela Jenkins - Cross already testified the second time, ma'am, not -- A. I didn't testify -- where you got the dates for the testimony? For the arbitration? Q. It was all done by the end of 1994, ma'am? A. Yeah. All right, then I was arrested again for a fugitive warrant. Q. Okay. Now, after your arrest in August 1995, you were in April '96 placed on probation; is that right, ma'am? A. Right. Q. Okay. Now, am I correct that because it was claimed by your probation officer that you never reported, in November 1996 you were arrested in New Jersey and charged? A. No. Q. And charged with violating your probation? A. Wrong. I was not arrested in New Jersey. I was arrested in Philadelphia for violation of probation. I sent -- Q. In April of this year? A. No. The first time I violated I was arrested here in Philadelphia. Q. Was that in November of 1996? A. I don't know when it was, I don't know all them dates. It might have been. Page 97. Pamela Jenkins - Cross Q. Were you transferred back to New Jersey? A. Yes, I was extradited back. Q. Okay. And that is not this arrest, that was an earlier arrest, right? A. Right. Q. And you were extradited back? A. Right. Q. And you stayed in prison in New Jersey for a period of time until you had a violation of probation hearing; is that right? A. Right. Q. Okay. And is it your testimony today -- so I am clear -- that that arrest and extradition back to New Jersey was in retaliation for your testifying or providing an affidavit in this matter? A. No. Q. Oh, it's not? A. No. I told you this retaliation is for the art picture, that's what I said. Q. This retaliation is for what? A. You all are retaliated because I am testifying in this case for that art picture. I never say nothing about no art -- whatever you said. Q. I misunderstood, I thought you used the word arbitration and I apologize for misunderstanding. Page 98. Pamela Jenkins - Cross How is it, Miss Jenkins, that you came to give the affidavit which is before you as a defense exhibit? MR. WEINGLASS: Affirmation. Objection. MS. FISK: I'm sorry, affirmation. BY MS. FISK: Q. Defense Exhibit 2 which is before you. A. Rachel came out to P.I.C.C. -- I mean in Jersey. Q. Yes? A. And she asked me do I know anything about it. And I -- Q. Yes? A. And I told her yeah. Q. All right. A. And that's how she got the affidavit. Q. Now, again you are referring to it as an affidavit as well as did I? A. Whatever it said in there. Q. But Counsel has made it clear to us that it is an affirmation, so we should use the right word, Miss Jenkins. A. What? Q. We have been told by Counsel it is an affirmation. Page 99. Pamela Jenkins - Cross A. I don't know what it is. Q. I don't know what it is either, actually. Miss Jenkins, I understand Miss Wolkenstein came out to see you, yes? A. Yes. Q. In New Jersey? A. Yes. Q. And she met with you? A. Yes. Q. And did you, following that meeting, sign this document? A. No, I did not. Q. Having met with Ms. Wolkenstein how did you then sign this document? A. She came back and then I signed it. Q. She came back? A. I don't know if it was the same day but I think it was afterwards and I signed it. After she went and typed it all up. Q. Hmm-hmm? A. That's when I signed it. Q. Now, on both of those occasions when Ms. Wolkenstein came to see you -- A. Yes. Q. -- where were you, please? Page 100. Pamela Jenkins - Cross A. I was in jail. Q. All right. In New Jersey? A. Right. Q. And Ms. Wolkenstein came to the prison on an earlier occasion and interviewed you and then came back and you signed this document? A. After I gave her the statement. Then she came back, I signed it. I think I signed it. Q. Is that right? A. Yeah, I guess. Q. Well, when you say yeah you guess, this is back in January? A. Yeah, you know, I was using this stuff then. I think that's how it happened. Yeah, I will say yes. Q. You were using what stuff then, ma'am? A. I mean you asking me all these questions back and forth. And I don't remember all that stuff. Q. And why is that, ma'am? A. I mean, I mean, I mean we ain't got to beat around the bush. You all know I was using. Come on, we ain't got to beat around the bush. Q. Using what, ma'am? A. You all know what it was: Crack. You all know I was using this for a period of time, before Page 101. Pamela Jenkins - Cross you get to it. I am just saying you ain't got to beat around the bush, you know what it was. Q. Were you using crack on the day you were interviewed? A. No, because I was in jail. Q. Were you using crack on the day that you signed the affirmation? A. No, I was in jail. Q. Over what period of years have you been using crack? A. I can't give you all that exact dates. Over -- my daughter 10 years old, so over that period. Q. So you have been using crack over the last 10 years? A. Off and on, off and on. Q. Would it be fair to say that you were even using crack back in 1981 during the period of time when you say you were Officer Ryan's informant and were intimate? A. No, not in 1981, I wasn't using crack then. Q. Oh? A. No. No. Q. All right, well, when did you start using crack? Page 102. Pamela Jenkins - Cross A. When... about '87. Q. And as a result of having used crack, then, for approximately ten years off and on, do you have difficulty with your memory? A. No, I do not. Q. Well, then let me go back to the question that led to you saying that. As I understand it, Ms. Wolkenstein came to the prison and interviewed you? A. Right. Q. And then am I correct that Ms. Wolkenstein returned? A. Right. Q. Some period of time later? A. Right. Q. You can't exactly tell us when? A. Right. Q. And presented you with this written document which you signed? A. Right. Q. And the date which it was signed -- A. Right. But I gave her the statement. Q. You had been interviewed by her earlier? A. Right. Q. And this written document reflected what you had told her? Page 103. Pamela Jenkins - Cross A. Right. Q. I am not questioning you, I am simply asking you. She came back at a later date and presented you with this document, which you read? A. Hmm-hmm. Q. Is that right? A. Right. Q. And which correctly reflected what you told her? A. Yes. Q. So you signed it? A. Yes. Q. And you dated it? A. Yes. Q. And the date is January the 9th of this year? A. Right. Q. Was anyone with Miss Wolkenstein on this second occasion when she presented this to you and you signed it? A. I don't think nobody was present. Q. How about the first time when she came and interviewed you: Was anyone with her? A. No. Q. Now, ma'am, when was the last time -- no, let me rephrase that. This past March the 7th when you Page 104. Pamela Jenkins - Cross saw Ms. White, as I understand it you were looking for her so you were going up to Yates' house on 13th Street, right? A. Hmm-hmm. Q. Again, you must say yes or no, ma'am. A. Yes. Q. You gave the address 1326 13th Street? A. Right. Q. Was that in the City of Philadelphia? A. Yes, it is. Q. Was that North or South 13th Street? A. North Philly. Q. Oh, okay. So it's 1326 North 13th Street? A. Yes. Q. All right. And does Yates have another name? A. No, I don't know his real name. Q. I'm sorry? A. I don't know his real name. Q. And what was his relationship to Ms. White? A. I mean he ran a head house. Q. And prior to March 7th of this year, when had you last been to Yates' hit house? A. What you mean, myself? Q. Yes, ma'am. A. I ain't been there. Only when I went, when I Page 105. Pamela Jenkins - Cross went over there when I was helping Don look for her. Q. Why was it -- A. Because she smoked and I smoked so I went to the head houses to look for her. Q. Okay. So you knew that Ms. White smoked? A. Right. Q. So you were going to head houses, would it be fair to say, throughout the City to see if you could find her? A. Not throughout the City, just North Philly, that area. Q. Why were you looking in that area? A. Because I knew that's where she hung at. Q. Okay. Prior to March 7th of this year, when had you last season Cynthia White? A. The last time I had seen her was when I seen her get in the truck. Q. Well, that was on March 7 of this year? A. Right. Q. Before that when had you seen her, before -- A. I seen her a couple times. I can't give you the exact dates. Q. Well, then approximate it if you can. A. Umm... I seen her like about the middle of February. Page 106. Pamela Jenkins - Cross Q. Of this year? A. Yeah. Umm. I found her a couple of times, put it like that. Q. Right. Well, let's, I would like, please, to identify as best you can separately each of those instances when you found her or when you saw her, okay. So let's go backwards in time from, you saw her March 7th. The time before that you saw her is approximately February of this year? A. Yeah. Q. And where did you see her? A. She was -- where was she. On Germantown and Allegheny. And I seen her again... where else I see her... umm, Germantown, Allegheny. You know, I can't be specific on all the streets, but, you know, the North Philly area, it's all in the same area. Q. Okay. A. Sunshine Inn, all, you know, it's all in the same area. Q. Now, did you ever speak to her on any of these occasions? A. I -- yeah. Q. Did you ever speak about this matter? A. No, I did not. Q. Okay. You told us when you saw her on March Page 107. Pamela Jenkins - Cross 7th she looked like she saw a ghost and ran out of the house? A. Right. Q. Now, were you in the house at that point? A. Was I in there? Q. Yes. A. No, I had walked in there. Q. You had just walked into the house? A. Yes. Q. So you had walked in from the outside? A. Yes, the house. Q. When you walked in from the outside then, did you notice any cars or trucks or vehicles outside? A. I wasn't even paying attention to that, I just went in there. Q. It wasn't until after she ran out that you saw her get into this pickup truck that you have described for us? A. Right. Q. And you told us that Officer Tom Ryan was in the passenger seat of that pickup truck? A. That's right. Q. And Detective Richard Ryan was the driver of the pickup truck? A. No, I did not tell you that. Page 108. Pamela Jenkins - Cross Q. I'm sorry. A. No, I didn't. Q. Who was the driver or the truck? A. Tom Ryan was driving. Q. I apologize for misrepresenting. Tom Ryan was driving. And Richard Ryan was the passenger? A. Yeah, Tom Ryan was driving, Richard Ryan was passenger. Cynthia -- Richard Ryan got out of the truck, Cynthia ran, got in the middle, and Richard Ryan was the passenger. Both of them was passengers. Q. Now, on the earlier occasions when you had seen Cynthia White on Germantown Avenue in North Philly near the Sunshine Inn, had she ever after looking in your direction acted like she saw a ghost and run away? A. No. Q. It was just this March? A. No, I asked, you know, I had seen her before but she would always tell me she was coming back, you know what I mean, and she would never come back. Q. So she would say to you oh, I'll be right back, or we'll talk, or something like that? A. Yeah; and it just so happened I caught her Q. Caught her what? Page 109. Pamela Jenkins - Cross A. I caught her in the house that day. And when she saw me it looked like she saw a ghost and she ran out and got in the truck. Like I said, you know, I can't put it no plainer than that. Q. Okay. Now, ma'am, am I correct that you were released from prison in Camden on January 17th of this year? A. I don't know the exact date. Probably. Q. Okay. Would you accept that you had a second violation of probation hearing -- or -- I'm sorry -- you had a violation of probation hearing? A. Yes. Q. In front of a judge? A. Hmm-hmm. Q. That you were given a new one-year period of probation until next January -'98? A. Yes. Q. And you were then released? A. Yes. Q. And would it be fair to say that you were, despite the fact that you were placed on reporting probation, that you did not report again to your probation officer? A. I reported about four times. Then I stopped reporting. Page 110. Pamela Jenkins - Cross Q. Pardon? A. I reported four times, then I stopped. Q. Then you stopped? Am I correct that it was then in April of this year that you were arrested and charged in Philadelphia because there was a warrant for you in Camden for violating your probation? A. Right. Q. Okay. Now, before that time, after you were released from the Camden jail and before you were arrested again, am I correct that you contacted the FBI about the theft of a picture? A. Right. Q. Okay. And that was because, ma'am -- well, let me put it this way: Am I correct that you have since that time confessed to having participated in the theft of the picture? MR. SCHOBER: Your Honor, I object to any questions about the specifics of the offense, and any questions about other than the fact that she gave a statement. The use of the word confess, Your Honor, implies more than the statement might contain, and for that reason I would object. THE COURT: The objection is overruled. Page 111. Pamela Jenkins - Cross (Discussion was held off the record at THE COURT: I overruled the objection. BY MS. FISK: Q. You can answer the question, Miss Jenkins. THE WITNESS: Can I ask you a question? THE COURT: No, you can't ask me. THE WITNESS: What does this have to do with this case? Can I ask you that? MS. FISK: Certainly, Miss Jenkins, I would be happy to answer it. If I may, Your Honor. A. person can't claim retaliation if they have been arrested for a legitimate offense. THE WITNESS: Okay, I confessed to it, but what about the time period? BY MS. FISK: Q. That is fine, Miss Jenkins, I understand that you have a complaint about that, but am I correct that you confessed to having stolen that picture? A. Yeah. Q. Okay. And the theft of that picture took place in February, right? Page 112. Pamela Jenkins - Cross A. Yeah. Q. And you contacted the FBI in March, right? A. Right. Q. And when you contacted the FBI, you assisted an FBI agent and a Philadelphia police detective by showing them the store where you had fenced the picture, right? A. Right. Q. And then they gave you three bucks and you went home? A. Gave me what? Didn't give me nothing. I had money in my pocket. Q. But then you went home, right? A. Right. Q. Because you didn't want to be there when they went into the store to get the picture back? A. No, he told me to stand outside the store. It ain't that I didn't want to be in the store, I had took them already to the store. Q. But you were not there when they recovered the picture back? A. No; but he called me and told me they recovered it back. Q. Who called you? A. The detective. I can't tell you which one but Page 113. Pamela Jenkins - Cross they told me they got the picture back. Q. So you took them to the store where you fenced the picture, sold it? A. Right. Q. And you left so they could go in and get the picture? A. Right. Q. And sometime later they called you and told you they recovered the picture? A. Right. No, the same night. Q. The same night they called you? A. Right. Q. And this was the picture you had told the police and the FBI on that date that you contacted the FBI that you along with another man had stolen, right? A. Right. Q. Okay. Now, am I correct that when you gave the police the information that day you were able to tell them that the other man who you assisted or -- I'm sorry -- the other man who stole the picture with you is a guy named Tone? A. Right. Q. But that is all you were able to tell them about Tone? Page 114. Pamela Jenkins - Cross A. Right. Q. You were able to give them some background of what he looked like and when he had last been arrested, right? A. Yeah. Q. But you didn't know a last name? A. No. Q. So when the detective contacted you that night and told you they got the picture back, did he tell you that he needed to be able to find out who Tone was? A. I don't recall that, no. He just told me he found the picture. The conversation that I had with the detective, when he got the picture, it was to take him to get the picture. Q. Yes, ma'am? A. And he wanted Tone. Q. Right. A. And it was over with me. Q. Right. Because you took him back and then you went home? A. Yeah. No, it was over, period. I wasn't going to be arrested or nothing. Because if I was going to be arrested, I ain't that dumb. Q. No? Page 115. Pamela Jenkins - Cross A. No. I wouldn't of gave them nothing. Q. All right, well, when you called the FBI that day to tell them that you knew about a picture -- A. Yeah. Q. -- nobody had told you when you picked up the phone that you weren't going to be arrested, right? A. He didn't have to tell me, he just told me he was going to come out to the house. But he came out to the house and told me that. Q. Who did? A. One of the, I think it was the, umm -- anyway, they are not the same two cops that came out to the house, but if you all say Corbin, I guess it was Corbin. Q. I didn't say who came to the house. A. Well, Corbin and the FBI agent came in the house. Q. Right. A. And FBI agent all of a sudden, though, retired now. So you tell me. You tell me, I don't know. You tell me. You tell me. Q. Do you think he retired as part of a cover up in retaliation? A. Yeah. MR. WEINGLASS: Objection to the form Page 116. Pamela Jenkins - Cross of the question. MS. FISK: I am simply responding to the comment of the witness, Your Honor. BY MS. FISK: Q. All right, now, the FBI agent and, the detective and FBI agent came to your house in response to your calling the FBI? A. Right. Q. You had already told the FBI agent on the phone that you had participated in the theft of a photo and you wanted to help him get it back? A. Right. Q. Right? A. Hmm-hmm. Q. Is that right? A. Right. Q. And on the phone the FBI agent did not say before you say any of this, Miss Jenkins, I am promising you we are not arresting you, he didn't say that on the phone? A. He didn't say nothing on the phone, he just, just stay at the house, he was coming to 526 Thompson. We didn't have no conversation like that on the phone. Q. Well, you called him to help him get the Page 117. Pamela Jenkins - Cross picture back? A. That was the conversation, to help him get the picture back. That was it. The conversation took place in the house, not on the phone. Q. So what you are telling us is when the FBI agent and the detective came to your house that day, they told you you would not be arrested? A. That's right. Q. Okay. All right, got you. Now, after they recovered the picture, am I correct that the detective, when he arrested you -- which was in June of this year, and which you claim is retaliation -- A. He did not, he didn't arrest me when he went to get the picture. Q. I didn't say that. A. Oh. MR. WEINGLASS: There was no arrest in June of this year. Counsel is confused and confusing the witness. BY MS. FISK: Q. When were you arrested for stealing the picture? A. June the 5th. MS. FISK: That's what I thought. Someone confused Counsel; it wasn't me. Page 118. Pamela Jenkins - Cross THE COURT: Counselor -- THE WITNESS: I was charged with the picture on June the 5th. BY MS. FISK: Q. You were arrested for stealing the picture on June the 5th? A. (The witness nodded her head affirmatively.) Q. I didn't think arrest and charged were different in this circumstance. You were already in custody, right? A. I was already in custody for a fugitive from Jersey, that's all. Q. You had been in violation for failure to report four times in Jersey? A. Right. Q. After you were in custody you were taken from the prison to the detective division to be arrested for the picture theft? A. Yeah, two months later, yeah. Q. You were arrested for the probation violation at some point in April, right? A. I was picked up for, it was for retail theft at first. The lady threw it out. Then they ran my name and came up fugitive for Jersey. Never for that picture. They came to P.I.C.C. and arrested me. Page 119. Pamela Jenkins - Cross Q. All right, when were you arrested for the fugitive, that should be on -- A. I was arrested from the fugitive, April the 14th is when they ran my name. Q. Is that the date that is on your bracelet? A. Ain't no date on my bracelet. No, it is not. Q. I thought they were. A. I told you I know when it was. Q. I don't doubt you. Now, when you were arrested in June of this year for the theft of the picture, am I correct that the detective presented to you an array of photos so you could identify who Tone was, the other person involved in this theft? A. Yeah. Q. Now, do you know whether or not after the detective spoke to you when the picture was recovered, in June of this year the detective was trying to get in touch with you for you to identify that photo array? A. He be getting -- I live at 526 Thompson, you know what I mean. Q. With whom did you live? A. My grandmother. Q. What is her name? A. Jean Bronson. I got the statement what it Page 120. Pamela Jenkins - Cross says she said. Q. What did it say? A. It say, she thought I was on crack again or something. Q. Right. A. Because I hadn't been home. And when I called her and asked her about it, she didn't tell nobody that. Q. I see. In fact, though, what the statement which appears in the police discovery relating to your theft -- just so the record is clear what you told me -- reflects that the detective made efforts to find you in April and went to your house, and your grandmother told the detectives that you were no longer living there and she didn't know where you were; is that right? A. Yeah. Q. Right? A. Right. Q. And in fact that statement also says that she had given you money to deliver to an attorney for someone else and they left with that money? A. I don't know anything about that. Q. You don't know anything about that? A. No. Page 121. Pamela Jenkins - Cross Q. Okay. Now, again just so I am clear: That charge of theft, which occurred in June of this year, you had a preliminary hearing, yes? A. Yes, I did. Q. And you have been held for Court on that charge; correct? A. Yeah. Q. And you are awaiting trial now? A. Right. Q. Now, this morning, before you were brought out, and actually since you testified, you have made reference to your counsel. A. Right. Q. Your attorney. He is not court-appointed, ma'am, is he? MR. SCHOBER Your Honor, I have an objection to any question concerning the relationship between myself and my client and Mr. Farrell. That has no relevance to this case. Certainly any communications or discussions -- THE COURT: Well, she hasn't gone into communications. MR. SCHOBER: She did. THE COURT: No, she hasn't. She just Page 122. Pamela Jenkins - Cross wanted to know if you are privately retained. MR. SCHOBER: I think that is confidential. I don't think that is relevant to this proceeding as well. Whether I am retained, appointed, or whether I am volunteering my services. THE COURT: Maybe you are. MR. SCHOBER: Any of those issues all irrelevant to this procedure and are contrary to the attorney-client privilege. MS. FISK: Not unless it goes to bias of the witness. MR. SCHOBER: How could the relationship between the client and myself go to any bias she has to testify in this Court? MS. FISK: Because if counsel's client is being given counsel free of charge on behalf of defense counsel in this case -- MR. SCHOBER: I make a representation as an Officer of this Court I have absolutely no relationship to Counsel in this case and my relationship with this client goes back further than any affirmation or -- MS. FISK: I would ask Counsel if he is Court-appointed or retained? Page 123. Pamela Jenkins - Cross MR. SCHOBER: I am refusing to answer that. MS. FISK: Well, then I am asking the witness who is under oath. THE COURT: The objection is overruled as to that. BY MS. FISK: Q. The attorney who represents you currently, is he retained or court-appointed? A. He is retained. Q. When did you, I am not asking what you said -- MR. SCHOBER: Your Honor, again she is now going further. BY MS. FISK: Q. Now, the date on which you retained this counsel -- MR. SCHOBER: Your Honor, I would indicate as an Officer of the Court that Mr. Farrell's relationship with this client goes back to before January of this year when he represented her in New Jersey. MS. FISK: I would indicate as an Officer of the Court that the Public Defenders Association represented this witness at her preliminary hearing on June the 6th of this Page 124. Pamela Jenkins - Cross year. According to the Court extract which has been produced. THE COURT: All right. MS. FISK: So I have a right, Your Honor, to know when this counsel entered his appearance on this matter in this Courtroom in this Court, that's all. THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead. THE WITNESS: He was obtained when the Public Defenders refused to represent me anymore because of they was conflict of interest for the 39th District, that's when he was retained. BY MS. FISK: Q. I see. That took place after your preliminary hearing, ma'am? A. Yes, it did. MR. SCHOBER: Again, Your Honor, I object. Perhaps these questions are better directed to the Public Defenders who refused to represent this woman, as opposed to this client herself. THE COURT: Well. All right, Counsel. Go ahead. Please. MS. FISK: Thank you, Your Honor. BY MS. FISK: Page 125. Pamela Jenkins - Cross Q. Is that what the Public Defenders -- MS. FISK: I'm sorry, I don't want to inquire into conversations with counsel. I won't ask that. I withdraw that question. I have no further questions, Your Honor. Well, if I may have a moment. (Discussion was held off the record at MS. FISK: I have nothing further, Your Honor. MR. WEINGLASS: Just a few questions, Ms. Jenkins. - - - - - REDIRECT EXAMINATION - - - - - BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. You were asked a few questions just now about any bias that you might have in this proceeding for the defense. Let me ask you this question. Do you face time in prison now in Pennsylvania? A. Yes, I do. Q. Do you believe you're going to go to prison? A. Yes, I do. Q. Do you think your testifying for Mr. Jamal is going to make your life in prison easier? Page 126. Pamela Jenkins - Redirect A. No, I don't. Q. Do you think it is going to make it more difficult? A. Yes, I do. Q. And you're still willing to testify? A. Yes, I am. Q. Can you imagine any benefit to yourself from testifying for Mr. Jamal? A. No, because I mean they done all they can do and I am not going to sit back and let this man go, you know, an innocent man go to jail for something he didn't do and right some of the wrong that I already done. So that's where I'm at with this. Q. Can you imagine some harm coming to you and your family because of your testifying here? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. THE WITNESS: Umm. MS. FISK: Objection. Ms. Jenkins, I made an objection. MR. WEINGLASS: It goes to bias. MS. FISK: Whether she can imagine?THE COURT: She said that already on direct. She had already answered that question. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Now, do you know for a fact when you first Page 127. Pamela Jenkins - Redirect started having an intimate relationship with Tom Ryan whether he was a truant officer or a police officer of the City of Philadelphia? A. He was a truant police officer. He was a truant, he was picking up people that was truancy and he was a police officer, the same thing. Q. That's your belief? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Did you ever ask him if he was an official police officer of the City? A. No. Q. Okay. With respect to the times that you started with Tom Ryan and the time that you began working with him as an informant, can you be precise as to what weeks or months that you started with him and when you started working with him? A. No, I can't. And I am pre -- not precise. Q. Right, it was 16 years ago? MS. FISK: Well, if she can't be precise, I suggest to Counsel suggesting a time frame -- THE WITNESS: I mean I have been this informant for years, I can't say when. THE COURT: Okay. There is no Page 128. Pamela Jenkins - Redirect question yet. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. You indicated in response to a question that was asked of you by Counsel that after your conversation with Cynthia White when she indicated to you that she was afraid for her life, you never related that conversation to Tom Ryan? A. No, I did not. Q. Why didn't you? A. Because at the time, umm, when he paid me I was using the money and I was getting high, so it didn't matter, and I wasn't looking for it. Q. Now just going into the time period when you were looking for Cynthia this year in 1997, you were questioned about that; is that correct? A. Yes, I was. Q. And you were trying to find her for the defense in this case? A. For Don, yes. Q. For Don, the investigator for the defense? A. Yes. Q. And did you make a number of efforts in trying to locate her? A. Yes, I did. Q. Not just this one night at the Yates house? Page 129. Pamela Jenkins - Redirect A. No. Q. And you were, were you attempting to get her, Don to meet with her? A. Yes, I was. Q. And in fact were there some arrangements that you made with Cynthia where you would meet her where you intended to bring Don to those meetings? A. Only one time, I had him with me for like -- I had him with me and I called and she was sitting there but Don never showed. Q. She never showed? MS. FISK: Don never showed. THE WITNESS: Don never showed. And other times I was trying to get them to meet but she wouldn't do it. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. She wouldn't do it? A. She wouldn't do it. Q. Did you tell Cynthia that you were trying to get her to meet with an investigator for the defense in this case? A. No, I just told her I was trying to get her to meet with Don. Q. I see. A. Private investigator. That's all I told her. Page 130. Pamela Jenkins - Redirect Q. Okay. You mentioned Tom Ryan had told you about officers who were on the street on the night of the shooting. Was the name Richard Ryan also mentioned as being on the street? A. Richard -- no, it was Richard Ryan, O'Neil1, Boston. That's all I remember right now. Q. The date that you called the FBI about the art theft, was that March 5th? A. I think so. You know, I don't remember the exact date it was. You know, I can't say when I picked up the phone to call them because I don't remember the exact date. I know it was the beginning of March. They got March the 5th so I guess it was March the 5th, I don't know. Q. Okay. And do you know that your name was first publicly associated with this case on March 10th when your affirmation was filed with the Pennsylvania Supreme Court? A. Yes. MS. FISK: Does that ignore the press conference that Counsel had prior to the filing of the affirmation announcing Miss Jenkins was the new witness? MR. WEINGLASS: It was on the same day. Page 131. MS. FISK: Ahh. MR. WEINGLASS: May I have just a moment. (Discussion was held off the record among defense Counsel.) MR. WEINGLASS: Nothing further. Thank you, Ms. Jenkins. MS. FISK: Oh, I have nothing more, Your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. MR. WEINGLASS: Your Honor -- MR. SCHOBER: Your Honor, if you are done with this witness, may I be excused? THE COURT: Yes, sure. All right, will you get back to the Supreme Court as quickly as possible. MS. FISK: Well, Your Honor, I would ask and again would join in Counsels' motion that they be permitted to call additional witnesses. THE COURT: Well, why don't you take it up with the Supreme Court. MS. FISK: Well, Your Honor, I would note -- THE COURT: Please, Counsel, I am not Page 132. a member of the Supreme Court. MS. FISK: I understand, Your Honor. THE COURT: I don't know what they want. And I don't want to go beyond what they want. So if you go up there and tell me what you could agree to and they say okay, and they sign whatever agreement you signed, we will be back tomorrow or the next day or whenever. MS. FISK: If I may, Your Honor, before that is done, insofar as it is clear that the Supreme Court has asked for notes of testimony of this witness so that a determination as to her credibility and therefore the value of her testimony to the overall proceeding could be made, the Commonwealth always in any proceeding has a right to rebut that testimony. The Commonwealth cannot be put in a position, Your Honor, of guessing what the testimony will be and then having the Supreme Court -- THE COURT: That's what he says. I am not going to make the decision for them. Go back up there and just ask them. Tell them what you agree to, he will tell them what he agrees to, they will sign an order. Page 133. MS. FISK: Your Honor, the Commonwealth is in possession of information, witnesses and documents which clearly show without question that testimony that this witness has provided today and which we have heard for the first time is false. And we absolutely in any proceeding have an absolute right to present that. And I would ask that Your Honor permit that to be presented. And in particular, it is in response to testimony offered by this witness. THE COURT: How long, how long will your witnesses be? MS. FISK: Well, the first witness actually, Your Honor, is by way of documentation. It will take about 30 seconds. The second witness, Your Honor, is a combination of records and witnesses, and will take not long. One witness is on call and has to come down. Another witness is present in the hallway. But these are witnesses who will absolutely and without question show the false -- THE COURT: Can you come back here at two o'clock? Page 134. MS. FISK: Yes, sir. MR. WEINGLASS: Your Honor, we object to being precluded and the prosecution is being allowed to go ahead. MS. FISK: I have no objection to Counsel continuing in that situation. MR. WEINGLASS: We are being precluded. THE COURT: That's why I am telling you go back to the Supreme Court. MS. FISK: Well, Your Honor, we have an absolute right to show the falsity of what this witness has testified to. THE COURT: Okay. Then just do that. MS. FISK: Okay. THE COURT: All right, two o'clock. MS. FISK: Two o'clock, Your Honor. THE COURT OFFICER: This Court now stands in luncheon recess until 2:00 p.m. this afternoon. (After a luncheon recess, the hearing was Page 135. THE COURT: Good afternoon, everyone. MS. FISK: Your Honor, I have a series of very brief, I anticipate very brief witnesses. The first witness is Detective Raleigh Witcher. - - - - - Philadelphia Police Detective Raleigh Witcher, Badge
number 17, - - - - - MR. WEINGLASS: May we have the name again? MS. FISK: Raleigh -- R-A-L-E-I-G-H -- Witcher -- W-I-T-C-H-E-R. May I proceed, Your Honor? THE COURT: Yes, sure. MS. FISK: Thank you. - - - - - DIRECT EXAMINATION - - - - - BY MS. FISK: Detective Witcher, how long have you been a Philadelphia Police Officer? Page 136. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Direct A. Since 1965, that's 32 years. Q. How long have you held the rank of detective? A. Since 1970. Q. And to what unit are you currently assigned? A. Philadelphia Police Homicide Division. Q. How long have you been assigned to the Philadelphia Police Homicide Division in the capacity as a Philadelphia detective? A. 17 years. Q. Were you a Philadelphia Homicide detective back in June 1982 at the time this Defendant Mr. Jamal was tried for the murder of Officer Daniel Faulkner? A. Yes, ma'am, I was. MS. FISK: May I ask, Your Honor, that this photograph be marked as Commonwealth Exhibit 1 for the purposes of this hearing (handing). MR. WEINGLASS: May we see it? MS. FISK: Absolutely. THE COURT OFFICER: (Handing). (Pause) (Photograph was marked Commonwealth's THE COURT OFFICER: So marked Page 137. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Direct (handing). MS. FISK: May I sit, Your Honor? THE COURT: Oh, sure. MS. FISK: Thank you. BY MS. FISK: Q. Detective Witcher, can you identify what has been marked as Commonwealth Exhibit l? A. Yes. This is a police photograph of a black female using the name Cynthia White, Philadelphia Police photo number 573095. It was taken on 12-17-1981. At the time she was 23 years of age and gave an address of 2120 South 6th Street. Q. Now, do you recognize the woman who is portrayed in that photograph? A. Yes, ma'am, I do. Q. And as whom, or how do you recognize her? A. She is the Cynthia White that testified in this case. Q. And that being in the trial against Mr. Jamal? A. Yes. Q. And when she testified she testified under the name of Cynthia White? A. Yes, she did. Q. Now, you have told us that this Commonwealth Exhibit also gives to Ms. White, you referred to a Page 138. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Direct Philadelphia photo number? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Could you tell us what that is? A. The number is 573095. Q. And, I'm sorry, what does it mean to have a Philadelphia photo number assigned to an individual whose picture appears as you are looking at it? A. Anyone arrested inside the County of Philadelphia is given a number that stays with them for the length of their life. Q. Now, do any two people -- well, strike that. MS. FISK: May I ask, Your Honor, that this document next be marked as Commonwealth Exhibit 2, and shown to Counsel (handing). (Pause) (Discussion was held off the record among defense Counsel.) (Master Name Index was marked Commonwealth's MS. FISK: And we could mark this as Commonwealth Exhibit 3. I believe Miss Wolkenstein was looking for something in particular, I believe it is on this document (handing). Page 139. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Direct (Court history was marked Commonwealth's (Pause) THE COURT OFFICER: So marked C-2 and C-3 (handing). BY MS. FISK: Q. Detective Witcher, let's start with Commonwealth Exhibit 3. Tell us what Commonwealth Exhibit 3 is first? A. Commonwealth Exhibit 3 is the Court history of one Cynthia White. Q. Is that the same Cynthia White who was the Cynthia White who testified in this case, Commonwealth versus Mr. Jamal, I believe the official title was Commonwealth versus Wesley Cook, but testified against this Defendant regarding the murder of Mr. Faulkner? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And how are you able to make that determination that this is the record for the same person? A. Because the Philadelphia photo number is the same. And that number is on the Court history records 573095, which is the same as that on the photograph of Cynthia White. Q. Now turn to Commonwealth Exhibit number 3. Page 140. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Direct Tell us what that is, please? A. This is a -- Q. I'm sorry, Commonwealth Exhibit number 2. Thank you. A. This is a computer printout of the Philadelphia Police Department automatic master name index, which is controlled by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Q. Now, on the first portion of that printout, does it reflect that it is a printout for the person who has the photo number assigned to Ms. White, that being 573095? A. Yes, it does. In the name of Cynthia White. Q. And does it, in that portion where the Philadelphia photo number is noted, also assign to Ms. White an FBI number? A. Yes, ma'am. And that number is 0934288R, Robert, 7. Q. What is an FBI number? A. That is an identification number that is given a person at the time of arrest wherever in the country, and that number stays with that person forever. He or she never gets a different number, it is the same number. Q. So similar to a Philadelphia photo number but Page 141. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Direct for FBI record keeping purposes? A. That's correct, ma'am. Q. Now, in your experience as a detective for the 30 something years that you have been a police officer, does the FBI maintain records of persons, criminal contacts from all the various states around the country? A. They do. Q. Continue, then, on Commonwealth Exhibit 2, can you tell us what the next portion of Commonwealth Exhibit that printout reflects? A. Well, in the first portion, it also reflects a Social Security number, which is 127-50-6809. The next portion is the identification index response, which is interstate from the FBI. And that reflects an FBI number of 934288R, Robert, 7. Q. Is that in fact the FBI number that you have previously told us matches or belongs to Cynthia White, the same person who has the photo number 573095? A. It is, ma'am. And this sheet she uses the name Mildred Saunders here. Q. I'm sorry, go ahead? A. This printout also contains approximately 19 to 20 aliases for this same person bearing the Page 142. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Direct numbers that we spoke of before. Q. Within those aliases is Cynthia White included? A. Cynthia White is included, and also the name Mildred Saunders. Q. Is the name Cynthia Williams included? A. Cynthia Williams is also included. Q. And the Social Security number which you have provided to us -- 127-50-6809 -- is that included as a Social Security number used by or identified with this same individual? A. Yes, ma'am, that number and other numbers used by her. Q. Now, does this FBI information also include identifying numbers assigned to this person by states, or by entities other than the FBI and Philadelphia? A. Yes, by states, other states as she was arrested in. And it would show, that would be the State of New York, and also the State of New Jersey. Q. And besides the identifying number assigned to this person in the State of New Jersey, is there any information noted on this printout? A. Yes. Q. And what -- Page 143. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Direct A. The information is deceased: D-E-C-E-A-S-E-D. Q. But it doesn't say when? A. No, it does not say when. MS. FISK: May I ask that this document be marked as Commonwealth Exhibit 4, please (handing). MR. WEINGLASS: Object to the document. The document is hearsay. The declarant of the document is a representative of the Federal Bureau of Investigation who is not here to authenticate the document. And particularly the notation in the document of deceased is not authenticated. MS. FISK: The death certificate of the witness which is being marked as Commonwealth Exhibit 4, which reflects that she died, Your Honor, in 1992, bears the seal from the State of New Jersey and is self-authenticating. MR. WEINGLASS: Whatever the following document is -- and we will deal with that document when it comes up -- it doesn't make this document any more available as evidence than it is in its current state. THE COURT: I know. You could argue Page 144. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Direct that before the Supreme Court. I am letting it in. THE COURT OFFICER: (Handing.) MR. WEINGLASS: May I just cross-examine on that document as of voir dire? THE COURT: You will get your turn. MR. WEINGLASS: May I voir dire on the document? THE COURT: Wait until she finishes with this document. You will get your turn and you could cross-examine on anything. MR. WEINGLASS: Yes, but ordinarily you are allowed to cross-examine on a document. THE COURT: Counselor, I have made a ruling already. You will get a chance after she finishes. Come on. (Pause) (Report of Death was marked THE COURT OFFICER: So marked C-4 (handing). BY MS. FISK: Q. All right, Detective Witcher, can you tell us, though it is self-authenticating, can you tell us Page 145. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Direct nevertheless what Commonwealth Exhibit 4 is? A. It is a Certificate of Death issued in the State of New Jersey, State Department of Health. And attached is a Report of Death, Camden County Office of the Medical Examiner. Q. Starting with the Certificate of Death, does that bear a seal, a raised seal from the State of New Jersey? A. Yes, it does. Q. Can you tell us for whom this is a Certificate of Death? A. It is for Cynthia Williams, a\k\a Mildred Saunders. Q. Is there a Social Security number for that individual reflected on that Certificate of Death? A. Yes, there is. Q. And what is that, please? A. The number is 127-50-6809. Q. And is that the same Social Security number that the Philadelphia records showed was assigned to Cynthia White? A. And the Federal records. Q. Both? A. Both. Q. Can you please tell us the date that that Page 146. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Direct death certificate reflects Cynthia White, also known as Cynthia Williams, also known as Mildred Saunders, was certified dead in the State of New Jersey? A. On 9-2-92. Q. '92? A. '92. Q. Can you tell us, please, what the cause of her death was as declared by the coroner on behalf of the State of New Jersey? A. It was undetermined. MS. FISK: Thank you. I have no further questions of this witness, Your Honor. - - - - - CROSS-EXAMINATION - - - - - BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Good afternoon, Detective Wichert. MS. FISK: Witcher. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Witcher, I'm sorry. A. All right. Q. Detective Witcher, when did you first see Commonwealth 4? A. I think the first time I actually saw it was Page 147. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Cross maybe this past, within the past two weeks. Q. Within the past two weeks? A. Yes, sir. Q. Certainly since May 30th, 1997, when the Supreme Court ordered this hearing? A. I'm not sure that I saw it prior to that time. I knew there was one, I did not see it. Q. You knew there was one without seeing it? A. I understood that there was one. Q. When were you first told that there was one? A. I don't remember. MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. Frankly, it is irrelevant. THE COURT: If he remembers, I don't care. THE WITNESS: I don't remember. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Who told you? A. Oh, I don't know. It was someone that's involved in this investigation. Q. What investigation is that? A. The investigation of your client. Q. Someone called you to tell you? A. No; I'm an active part of the investigation. Q. You are still part of the investigation? Page 148. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Cross A. That is correct. Q. Okay. When did you, have you looked for Cynthia White in the past two years? A. Physically, no. Q. How have you looked for her? A. Checking records. Q. And did you ever find a death record for her? A. I did not. Q. What records did you check? A. Several records. The local records, State records. Q. Did you check New Jersey? A. I did not. Q. Did anyone to your knowledge check New Jersey? A. Yes. That's how we obtained this document. Q. But the document was obtained when, to your knowledge? A. I can't tell you that, sir. Q. Within the last two, three weeks? A. I think so. Q. So it was only within the last two or three weeks that you checked in New Jersey? A. No, I did not say that. Q. Did someone check in New Jersey? A. Someone came up with this (displaying), Page 149. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Cross someone involved in our investigation. I don't know exactly who that person is. Q. Right. Did you order it? A. No, I did not order it. Q. Right. So let me just get this clarified in my own mind. Is it your testimony that as of May 30th, 1997, you had no knowledge or information respecting the whereabouts of Cynthia White as of that time? A. I did not. Q. As of that time, prior to May 30th, 1997, had you inquired as to the whereabouts of Cynthia White in the previous two years? A. Probably so. Q. And what do you mean by that? A. During the course of this investigation, we did actively try to locate Cynthia White. Q. When was that, if you can give us years? '95? '96? A. Well, I don't know the years but since these hearings have been coming up. Q. Would that be since '95? A. Probably, yes. Q. And when you say we have actively, could you describe to the Court what you have done? Page 150. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Cross A. I am a part of the investigation. I am an active part of the investigation. There are a lot of things that I have done. I have not always been designated to do any one particular thing in the investigation. This is a team effort here. Q. Right. I want to limit it to Cynthia White. What have you done since 1995 with respect to Cynthia White? A. I have checked local records -- MS. FISK: Your Honor, I object. That is not relevant to the document which is self-authenticating and which shows the date of her death in 1992. MR. WEINGLASS: If it is the same person. MS. FISK: But that has nothing to do with this detective's efforts to locate -- THE COURT: He said he never went to New Jersey, somebody else in the squad evidently had New Jersey. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Let me just ask it this way relative to this objection and the Court's comment. Did you receive in 1995 and in 1996 and in 1997, up to May 30th, 1997, information that Cynthia White was alive and in Page 151. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Cross the environs of the City of Philadelphia? A. The only information that we received that she was alive was a document sent to the District Attorney's office by your team, sir. Q. Other than that you had no other information? A. No, sir. Q. Now, my second question, then, is could you tell the Court what efforts you made yourself, in 1995, 1996, '97, to locate Cynthia White? A. As I stated before, I checked records, I made telephone calls. I checked records both local and out of the locale. We did not locate her. Q. Could not locate her? A. Could not locate her. Until this document was produced (displaying). Q. And that document wasn't found until after May 30th, 1997? MS. FISK: That's not what he said, Your Honor. He said that's when he saw it. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. To your knowledge, when was that document found? A. I don't know. Q. You have no knowledge? A. That was my testimony, I can not tell you when Page 152. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Cross this document was found. I said I found out or saw this document for the first time approximately two weeks ago. Q. And could you indicate to the Court just an approximation of how many hours you spent in '95, '96 and '97, up to April 3rd, May 30th, looking for Cynthia White? A. I can't honestly estimate that. Q. Would be it more than 100 hours? A. I can't honestly estimate that. Q. But you were actively looking for her? A. From time to time. And I also testified that that was not physically. In other words, I wasn't out in the street looking for her. Q. Were others, to your knowledge? A. I imagine so. Q. So it's your testimony that officers of the Philadelphia Police Department were actively looking for someone who you are telling the Court today has been dead since 1992, and dead in the State of New Jersey, just across the river in Camden, and your office had no knowledge of this? A. I did not testify to that, sir. Q. If your office had knowledge that Cynthia White died in 1992, would you have been assigned the Page 153. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Cross task of locating her in '95, '96 and '97? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. MR. WEINGLASS: It goes to the credibility of this report. We don't know if she died or not. THE COURT: Well, he is just telling you what the records say. If you think the records are wrong, you go out and investigate them. MR. WEINGLASS: We have investigators. THE COURT: You nave investigators, good. Go out, do what you have to do. MR. WEINGLASS: And I can assure the Court you will hear from that. But I want to get the information this witness has about his efforts to find someone. THE COURT: He told you he didn't go out in the street, he made telephone calls, that kind of investigation. MR. WEINGLASS: But he was part of the team and others went out into the street. THE COURT: Yes, he is part of the team, but he doesn't know what each individual is doing. MR. WEINGLASS: And they are looking Page 154. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Cross for someone who according to their information was dead since '92, and the information was lodged in Camden, New Jersey. THE COURT: That's what they are telling you that they found out ultimately. MR. WEINGLASS: All right. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. After you got this information which is in Commonwealth 4, did you do anything to try to obtain the fingerprints of the deceased person who is identified in that document? A. That information, sir, I did not, but that information is contained in Commonwealth Exhibit 2. Q. And could you refer me to the fingerprint identification information? A. Yes, if you will look on -- MS. FISK: Counsel Doesn't have a copy. There is only one copy. THE WITNESS: There is a fingerprint class number on about the third page and that's from the FBI. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. And what does that fingerprint class number say? A. There are ten numbers. Page 155. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Cross Q. Yes? A. And you would have to get a person that reads fingerprints to tell you exactly, or to read it. But it reads thusly: PM, 11, 12, CO, 16, DO, 08, 13, PI, 18. Q. In your experience what do those numbers reflect? A. It identifies your fingerprints. There are ten numbers there, one number for each finger. Q. And did you check with the FBI after you got this document, Commonwealth 2, to see if in fact the deceased who is on Commonwealth 4 bore the fingerprints of Cynthia White? A. No, sir, but the Philadelphia identification system has the same records and the same numbers. Q. Did you check the Philadelphia numbers? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you bring them with you? A. We have them here in this document on this Court -- on C-3, the Court history. Well, we don't have those numbers. Well, we have the fingerprints, the photo identification number. Q. Right? A. Which is -- Q. Yes? Page 156. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Cross A. -- the identifying number for Cynthia White. And if you check deeper in her records, you will find her fingerprint class. Q. All right, and I am asking you, Detective, did you check deeply into those records before testifying today? A. No, sir, I did not. Q. Where are those records? A. They are in the fingerprint identification system or section of the Philadelphia Police Department. Q. Where is that? A. Located at 8th and Race. Q. About how many blocks from here? A. I don't know. We're at Juniper and Filbert. Q. It is a short walk? A. Well, it's pretty hot out there today, sir. Q. You didn't want to walk it today, did you? A. I do what I am told and I do what I am paid for. MS. FISK: Objection. He didn't have a burden to do that. A self-authenticating document is sufficient, whether Counsel likes it or not. THE COURT: If he wants to investigate Page 157. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Cross it further, go ahead. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. I want to get this clear. You don't know of your own knowledge if Cynthia White is alive today or dead? A. I have every reason in the world to believe that the FBI would not deem her dead if she was not dead. Q. My question to you, Detective: Of your own knowledge, do you know if she is alive or dead? MS. FISK: Your Honor, these are offered as business records. THE COURT: Yes; objection is sustained. MR. WEINGLASS: Right. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Would you have looked for Cynthia White for the last two-and-a-half years as part of a team with others who were also looking for her if in fact you had knowledge that she had died in '92? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: He said he looked, whatever he did. Now, would he have? It would have been futile. MR. WEINGLASS: Exactly. Page 158. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Cross THE COURT: Well, he knows that, you know that. So what are you asking him for? BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Incidentally, as a detective in Homicide with 33 years experience overall, 17 years in Homicide in the City of Philadelphia, you do work frequently, do you not, with comparable law enforcement services in Camden County, New Jersey? A. Not necessarily, sir. Q. Do you work frequently with them? A. No. Q. They are right over the river; is that right? A. It doesn't matter. Darby is to the right and I don't work with Darby, Pennsylvania authorities regularly either. Q. Right. You have worked with Camden authorities in the last three years? A. Yes, I have. Q. Did you ever ask them about Cynthia White? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor: It is irrelevant. The efforts made produced evidence that the woman is dead and that she wasn't the one who saw a ghost last March. THE COURT: Save them for some other time if the Supreme Court wants to hear further. Page 159. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Cross I don't. MR. WEINGLASS: Your Honor, the evidence of her death, not surprisingly, allegedly surfaces only after the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania orders this hearing, even though this witness and others have been looking for her. THE COURT: Are you saying that that is a phony? Are you saying that that death certificate is phony? MR. WEINGLASS: I am saying that we will have testimony to rebut it. THE COURT: All right. Are you saying that it's phony? MR. WEINGLASS: We will have testimony to rebut it. THE COURT: Are you saying that it is phony? I asked you a simple question. MR. WEINGLASS: I am saying we will rebut it. THE COURT: You are not answering my question. All right, go ahead. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Did you look at a photograph of the alleged deceased who is in Commonwealth 4? Page 160. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Cross A. I am looking at it now. Q. The photograph of her as a deceased person? A. No, I did not see her body. Q. You didn't see her? A. Not photographed or otherwise. Q. And you didn't see a photograph? A. No. THE COURT: The body is already gone, how is he going to see it? It will come out of the grave and look at you? You know the body is dead, it is down in the ground. Sure, he didn't see the body. MR. WEINGLASS: Your Honor, I am not asking him to do subterranean investigation. THE COURT: Well, for a minute I thought you were. MR. WEINGLASS: I do think, though, that given the fact that there is a police report or a report appended to Commonwealth 4 -- THE COURT: Take it up with the Supreme Court when you get up there, okay. If they want you to do something further they will send it back. (Discussion was held off the record among defense Counsel.) Page 161. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Cross MR. WEINGLASS: May I have the Exhibits that are before the witness? We don't have copies. THE COURT: Well, how in the world is he going to answer your questions? MR. WEINGLASS: I will give the witness the courtesy before I ask the witness a question about the documents. May I? THE COURT: All right. Which ones? MR. WEINGLASS: May I see all of the documents? As I question I will return the documents to the witness. (Pause) BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Did you in the course of your investigation, '95, '96 and '97, have any information that the Cynthia White you were looking for had any next of kin? A. I think I recall seeing the name of a parent or someone at some time. I, I can't say yes or no. Q. My question to you is, did you attempt to locate Cynthia White's, who you were looking for, next of kin? A. No, sir, I did not. Q. Did you ever look for a woman named Ruth Ray, Page 162. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Cross R-A-Y? A. No, sir. Q. She is the mother of Cynthia White? A. I never looked for her. MR. WEINGLASS: Now I want to return to you Commonwealth 1 together with another document which has six photographs in it, which I would like to have marked Defendant's 4 for identification. (Photographs were marked Defendant's BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Now, before I get into these documents which are being handed to you, let me ask you this question. Back in 1982 -- THE COURT: Wait a while. Wait a while. She is looking at some documents. Okay. THE COURT OFFICER: So marked D-4, Your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Back in June and July of 1984, when you were A. working on this case -- MS. FISK: '84? Page 163. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Cross BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. -- I'm sorry -- '82, you were aware of the fact that Cynthia White was brought down to testify here in Philadelphia from the City of Boston where she was then incarcerated? A. I don't recall that. I know she testified, she was present in Philadelphia and she did testify in this case. I don't know if she was brought down from Boston or not, I don't recall that. Q. You don't remember that? A. I said I don't recall it. Q. Now I will ask you to look at Defense Exhibit 4 for identification. Look at the top two photographs on that document. Do you recognize that person? The top two, left and right. A. Are you referring to these two here, this same photograph, one profile and one straight face (displaying) (indicating)? Q. That's correct. A. Yes. Q. Who is that person? A. Cynthia White. Q. Now, could you do as you did before: Read into the record what is marked on those photographs? A. Police Department, Boston, Massachusetts. Page 164. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Cross There is a number 213533. And it's dated 5-4-79. Q. Does that refresh your recollection that Cynthia White was in custody in Boston, Massachusetts in '81 and '2? A. No, sir. Q. Okay. Now, the numbers that are marked there, are those State, or Commonwealth of Massachusetts numbers? A. I have no idea what those numbers are. Q. Have you ever seen those photographs before? A. No, I have not. Q. Not in your investigation? A. Sir, I have not seen these photographs before. Q. By the way, I have limited my questions to you up to this point of any activity you did with respect to Cynthia White in '95, '96 and '97. Would it be fair to say that your activity with respect to Cynthia White goes back 15 years? A. What activity are you referring to? Q. Attempts to locate her. A. No, sir. You would be wrong. Q. When did you start to locate her? A. Probably around the dates that you just mentioned, '95 on. Q. Not before? Page 165. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Cross A. Not that I can recall. Q. Okay. Looking at the second series of photographs that are in the middle left and right on Defense Exhibit 4, do you recognize those photographs? A. That is a photograph of Cynthia White. Q. And is there a date on those photographs? A. 7-22-81. Q. And where are those photographs taken? A. Police Department, Boston, Massachusetts. Q. So that would indicate to you that in July of '81 she was in Boston? A. No, sir. It would indicate to me that there is a date on this photo of 7-22-81 and it's marked Police Department, Boston, Massachusetts. Q. Would that indicate that she was in Boston on that date? A. No, sir, not to me. Q. Why is that? A. Because it indicates only what I read here. Q. I see. A. Nothing further. Q. I see. Okay. You wouldn't want to on the basis of just data that is on a document even venture an opinion beyond what the data is? Page 166. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Cross A. No, that is not true. I don't know where these pictures were obtained from and I don't know whether they are authentic or not. I know I got the documents that I obtained from authentic sources. Q. I see. Now look at the last two photographs on that document. And who is that? A. Cynthia White. Q. And what is the date of that? A. 4-27-83. Q. Where is that taken? A. Boston. Q. So with respect to these six photographs that appear on Defense Exhibit 4, it is your testimony that all six are Cynthia White? A. Yes. Q. Now, who is -- I'm sorry -- do you have Commonwealth 4 before you? A. I don't have any. MR. WEINGLASS: If we could return that document. THE WITNESS: No. MR. WILLIAMS: (Handing). BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Commonwealth 4: Who is the medical examiner who certified that this individual has the name Page 167. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Cross Cynthia Williams, also known as Saunders? A. He is Dr. R. L. Catherman, 43rd and Madison Avenue, Pennsauken, New Jersey. Q. Is he the same, to your knowledge, Dr. Catherman who was a medical examiner in Philadelphia for 20 years? A. I believe he is. Q. And he was the medical examiner here until the late 1980s? A. I don't recall when he left. Q. Had you worked with him in any way? A. Yes, I have. MR. WEINGLASS: If I may have just a moment. (Discussion held off the record among defense Counsel.) BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. In your checks in looking for Cynthia White, '95, '96 and '97, you did, did you not, come across the fact that she was a wanted felon here in the City of Philadelphia during that time for having skipped bail on a felony charge in 1987? A. No, I don't recall that. It very well might be, I don't recall it. Q. Is that noted in the computer printout which Page 168. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Cross is Commonwealth 2, or in the Court history which is Commonwealth 3? And I don't think you have Commonwealth 3 before you. Which we will give you. A. I don't have 2, either. MR. WEINGLASS: I'm sorry, if we could have 2 and 3. MR. WILLIAMS: (Handing). MS. FISK: Does he have Commonwealth Exhibit 3? Thank you. MR. WILLIAMS: (Handing). MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Could we get copies of these documents? THE COURT: You could get copies later on. (Pause) THE WITNESS: I don't see any indications that she is a fugitive, sir. MS. FISK: May I call the detective's attention to Commonwealth Exhibit 3. MR. WEINGLASS: Yes, thank you. That is Commonwealth 3. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Is that an FBI document or is that a Commonwealth of Pennsylvania document? A. Which documents? Page 169. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Cross Q. 3. A. 3 is a Court of Common Pleas Court history. Q. And that is one where you don't see any reference to a 1987 warrant? A. No, I was reading from the Federal document. Q. I'm sorry, so you were reading from -- A. Yes. Q. -- Commonwealth 2? A. That's correct. Q. And the Federal document doesn't indicate any outstanding warrants from '87? A. I did not notice it on my perusal of it. MS. FISK: Look at the first page, Detective. THE WITNESS: Yes, this document does. The first page of 3 indicates that she is, that the defendant is at large on a robbery charge. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Since 1987? A. Scheduled trial date was 3-30-88. Q. Right. But she made bail in '87 thanks to the intercession of the District Attorney's Office? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: No comment, will you please. Strike that question from the record. Page 170. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Cross Start over again. Be a gentleman for a change. MS. FISK: Your Honor, I would agree that Commonwealth Exhibit 3 had a bench warrant issued for her from March 1988 when she failed to appear at trial. THE COURT: Okay. MR. WEINGLASS: Okay. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Now, that bench warrant does not appear in Commonwealth 3 to your reading of it today? I'm sorry, in Commonwealth 2. A. It does not. Q. And that is the FBI document? A. That's correct. Q. And that is the document that you rely on for the fact that she is deceased in part? A. That is correct. Q. Is there any reason why the FBI document is missing the fact that there is a warrant outstanding for her? A. Because there is another system that you can go into and get whether she's wanted or not. Q. Did you try that system in the FBI? A. That would come up the same as this (displaying). Page 171. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Cross Q. Did you try it? A. No, I did not personally. Q. So you don't know? A. I am telling you. Q. But you don't know? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. You don't know, Detective, because you didn't try? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. Dead is dead. They can't arrest her on a warrant if she's dead. MR. WEINGLASS: Right, but if they are going to say someone is deceased on a long printout, if that person is the one we are looking for there would be notations that there was a warrant outstanding for her. That notation does not exist on the FBI document. THE COURT: Counselor, the FBI is not going to put anything on their docket unless they get it from somebody. If they didn't tell the FBI we are looking for this person, therefore it's not on their docket. MR. WEINGLASS: Fair enough. I will ask the witness that question. Page 172. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Cross THE COURT: What do you have to ask the witness for? Ask me, I will tell you that is why it is not on the docket. MR. WEINGLASS: I want to ask this witness in the ordinary course if there is a warrant outstanding for somebody for robbery -- THE COURT: Do you know how many warrants outstanding we have in Philadelphia? MR. WEINGLASS: For robbery? THE COURT: For robbery, anything else. Do you know how many? MR. WEINGLASS: Are they given to the FBI? THE COURT: No, they are not automatically given to the FBI. MR. WEINGLASS.: May I ask the witness that question? THE COURT: I don't know, if he could answer it. Ask him whatever he could answer, I don't know. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. If there is an outstanding warrant for someone who is in flight on a robbery charge in 1988, is that information given to the FBI? A. Not necessarily. In some cases it is, some Page 173. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Cross cases it's not. For whatever reason. Q. What determines it? A. Mainly it would be the investigator, the charge. And if that person is wanted on a robbery I would suspect that it would go into NCIC, which is a national system. Q. Is that picked up by the FBI? A. Yes, it is; it is controlled by the FBI. Q. So you would have expected that this information would be with the FBI if it is the Cynthia White we are looking for? MS. FISK: Your Honor, he has already testified that it would be in a different portion, a different record that would give him this record through the FBI, that this particular document, Commonwealth Exhibit 2, is not a document which gives you open charges. Those are different documents. Perhaps Counsel does not realize we have not marked or entered into evidence a Federal printout of open charges. That's simply different. We are talking apples and oranges. THE COURT: Do you understand her now? MR. WEINGLASS: What I do realize is that this witness never bothered to get the Page 174. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Cross other documents. THE COURT: You call the FBI and find out why it is not on their docket. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: They won't give it to us. THE COURT: Ask them to give it to you, sure. MR. WEINGLASS: Somehow we don't get the same cooperation from the FBI as the District Attorney's Office. THE COURT: Try, try being nice to them: You might get it. If you are going to be like you are here in the Courtroom you won't get anything. I am telling you be nice. They will give it to you. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Sure. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. I, just in light of the last series of questions, wanted to go into one more area. In your work in '95, '96 and '97, did you inquire of the FBI if they had any documentation or information pertaining to Cynthia White? A. I did not. Q. Did you check the NCIC records? A. I did not. Page 175. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Cross Q. Would you look at Commonwealth 4. In Commonwealth 4 is there an indication -- A. Hold on, sir, please. MS. FISK: That is the death certificate, Detective. THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Is there an indication on the face of that document on page 1 as to any next of kin for this person who is Cynthia Williams or Cynthia Saunders or Mildred Saunders? (Pause) A. Yes. Q. And what is indicated? A. The name Ruth Ray, R-A-Y. Relationship is mother. Q. Is there any other information about Ruth Ray on that document? A. No, sir. (Discussion was held off the record among defense Counsel.) BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. You never called this individual or tried to find this individual who is listed as this person's next of kin? Page 176. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Cross A. I did not. Q. Incidentally, in reading the report on how this individual was found in Camden, do you have any idea as to how the Medical Examiner's Office would know who her next of kin was? A. No, sir, you would have to ask them. That was not an investigation conducted by Philadelphia. Q. Is it indicated in that report that at the time they found this individual this individual was not in a position to communicate to the persons who found her? A. Yes, it does. Q. Was she already dead? A. No, it says she was unconscious and unresponsible... I'm sorry, yes, responsible -- MS. FISK: Responsive. THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, responsive. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. All right. Had rigor mortis already set in? A. Sir, I do not know. Q. Is that indicated? A. She was unconscious and unresponsive. MS. FISK: It speaks for itself, it is self-authenticating. THE COURT: You will have a copy of Page 177. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Cross this and you could investigate it all you want. MR. WEINGLASS: Yes, thank you. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Now, could you just indicate lastly for the Court how Exhibits 2 and 3 -- one is the FBI document which is 2, and the other is the Court history which is 3 -- how are those documents generated? A. They are generated by computer. You put in codes and it responds. Q. When you say you put in codes, do you put in the name of the individual or do you put in a code number? A. You can do it various ways. Q. Could you put in a Social Security number? A. Yes. Q. And could you put in the name? A. Yes. Q. Could you put in the fingerprint? A. I couldn't. But there are people that can. Q. When you say there are people, who are you referring to? A. People in our identification unit. Q. And do you know if these documents which have been presented to the Court as Exhibits 2 or 3 were produced by putting in the fingerprints? Page 178. Detective Raleigh Witcher - Cross A. These documents were not produced that way. Q. Okay. Do you have the fingerprint card for Cynthia White? A. I gave you the numbers, I do not have the card. Q. Do you know if the card exists today? A. I couldn't answer that. Q. You didn't look for it before you came to Court today? A. No, I would have no reason to look for the card. Q. That's because you are relying on the documents? A. That's because I have no reason to look for the card. I know that these documents are authentic and any information that I need that I could handle and that I can read are in these documents and I can obtain them without putting in the fingerprint numbers. Q. Last question to you, Detective: The bottom line is that there is no match that you are aware of personally between the fingerprints of the Cynthia White who you knew in 1982 and the person who was found dead in Camden in 1992? A. There is a match and it's authenticated in the Page 179. FBI report here. Q. But you don't know if that is the case? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: Now you are arguing with him. He is telling you that it's in the FBI report. Call the FBI. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. You indicated to us that when you looked at Peoples' -- Commonwealth's Exhibit 3, there was some information on fingerprint -- 2 -- I'm sorry -- there was some information on the fingerprint there? A. That's correct. Q. But you don't know if that fingerprint is the fingerprint of the Cynthia White you knew in 1982? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor: Asked and answered. THE COURT: He has already told you about that. If you want to investigate further, go right ahead. (Discussion was held off the record among defense Counsel.) MR. WEINGLASS: Your Honor, I have no questions of the witness right now. But I ask the witness be held until after Ruth Ray, who is the named next of kin of a person who was found Page 180. in '92, comes to this Court and testifies as to who that individual was. THE COURT: Well, I am sure he could be available to you in some way. MR. WEINGLASS: Thank you. I have nothing further. MS. FISK: May I call my next witness, Your Honor? THE COURT: Yes, sure. MS. FISK: Commonwealth calls Sherrie Brewer, Your Honor. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Could we see those documents again, Miss Fisk? THE COURT: You will get a copy later on. We will make copies for you. Don't get excited. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: C-l is here. THE COURT: Do we have a Xerox machine? MS. FISK: You may want to wait until the next document. THE COURT: Do you need that? MS. FISK: There is an additional document referred to. Counsel may want that. - - - - - - Page 181. Sherrie Brewer - Direct Sherrie Brewer, having been duly sworn, - - - - - - DIRECT EXAMINATION - - - - - - BY MS. FISK: Q. Ms. Brewer, would you please tell us how you are employed? A. By the Philadelphia School District, Department of Records Management. We keep the school records of all the students in Philadelphia who attend Philadelphia public schools. Q. And are you here in the capacity of custodian of records for the Philadelphia Board of Education? A. Yes, I am the custodian of records. Q. And how long have you held that position, Ms. Brewer? A. Well, I have been with the School Board for about 12 years, records management about five years. Q. Ms. Brewer, prior to your appearing today, were you asked to obtain from the Philadelphia Board of Education records the school records of one Pamela Denease Jenkins? A. Yes, I was. Q. And have you obtained the records of Pamela Page 182. Sherrie Brewer - Direct Denease Jenkins? A. Yes, I have. Q. And is that the package before you? A. Yes, it is. Q. Now, ma'am, do those records -- so the Court record is clear -- are those the records of a Pamela Denease Jenkins who was a female whose date of birth is September the lst, 1965? A. Yes, that is correct. Q. And as part of those records, Ms. Brewer, do they contain a card or a single document which reflects the schools that Ms. Jenkins attended as a Philadelphia student? A. Yes. Q. And is that on a single document or photocopy of a portion of the file? A. Yes, it is. MS. FISK: May I ask, Your Honor, that this document be marked as Commonwealth Exhibit 5. MR. WEINGLASS: Could we see it? MS. FISK: Absolutely. THE COURT OFFICER: (Handing). (Pause) (Board of Education record was marked
Commonwealth's Page 183. Sherrie Brewer - Direct THE COURT OFFICER: So marked (handing). BY MS. FISK: Q. Ms. Brewer, is Commonwealth Exhibit 5 an accurate photocopy of a card out of the Education files, Board of Education files kept on file for Pamela Denease Jenkins, whose birth date is 9-1-65? A. Yes, it is. Q. And is that a document maintained for record keeping purposes within the Board of Education which shows the schools that Ms. Jenkins attended in the City of Philadelphia? A. Yes, yes, it is. Q. Does that document reflect whether or not Ms. Jenkins ever attended Simon Gratz High School? A. Yes, it does. Q. And would you please tell us the date that Ms. Jenkins began attending Simon Gratz High School? A. As the record shows, it would be January 19th, 1982. Q. And does that same document reflect the date on which Ms. Jenkins stopped attending Simon Gratz High School? A. Yes, it does. Page 184. Sherrie Brewer - Direct Q. And what is that date? A. That date would be December 6th, 1982. Q. And based on your review or your position here as the custodian of records, is there any other period of time in which Pamela Denease Jenkins attended or was registered to attend Simon Gratz High School? A. No, that's it. MS. FISK: Thank you, ma'am. I have nothing further of this witness, Your Honor. (Discussion was held off the record among defense Counsel.) - - - - - CROSS-EXAMINATION - - - - - BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Brewer. A. Yes, good afternoon, sir. Q. I just have a few questions for you. On the document that is before you C-5, you told us about where Pamela Jenkins according to that document went to school? A. Yes. Q. In 1982? And you told us that she went to Page 185. Sherrie Brewer - Cross Simon Gratz High School? A. Yes. Q. Does it indicate where she went to school in 1981, the year before? A. Umm, actually it is a, it is recorded that she was in Beeber, B-E-E-B-E-R, she began there 4-2-81. And then 5-6-81 she was listed as a runaway. Q. Now, from May 6th, 1981, according to that record, she is a runaway? A. Yes. Q. And to your knowledge, when someone is a runaway, do the truant officers try to locate that person? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: I don't know if this witness is qualified to answer that question. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Just as a general practice, does Philadelphia try to find and locate runaways? A. Not that I'm aware of. I really couldn't say because I -- Q. You can't say one way or the other? A. No, I can't, because I am not a truant officer and I don't know what their duties are. Q. Right. But from May 6th of '81 she is listed Page 186. Sherrie Brewer - Cross as a runaway? A. Yes. Q. That means that she is someone who is not going to school? A. That's correct. Q. And there is no indication that she returned to school in the year '81? A. That's correct. Q. So according to that record, she is a runaway from May 6th of '81 until January of '82? A. Yes. Q. And that's when the truant officers might have been looking for her? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: She told you she doesn't know what the duties are of the truant officers. MR. WEINGLASS: Okay, I have nothing further. Thanks. MS. FISK: Thank you. THE WITNESS: You're welcome. MS. FISK: Thank you, Ms. Brewer. I would ask, Your Honor, that Ms. Brewer only leave behind Commonwealth Exhibit 5 and be permitted to return the remainder of the record back to the files of the Page 187. Peggy Tolan - Direct Board of Education. THE COURT: Yes. MS. FISK: Thank you, Ms. Brewer. THE WITNESS: You're welcome. MS. FISK: Commonwealth next calls Ms. Peggy Tolan, Your Honor. - - - - - Peggy Tolan, having been duly sworn, - - - - - DIRECT EXAMINATION - - - - - BY MS. FISK: Q. Ms. Tolan, how are you employed, please? A. With the City of Philadelphia, Police Department. Q. In what capacity? A. I am an administrative services supervisors in the personnel office. Q. And you are a civilian employee of the Police Department? A. Yes, I am. Q. And how long have you held the position that you hold? A. I've been with Police personnel for about 11 Page 188. Peggy Tolan - Direct years, a little over 11 years. Q. And in that capacity are you the custodian of records for Philadelphia Police personnel documents? A. Yes, I am. Q. And in that capacity, Ms. Tolan, have you identified for us the date on which former police officer Thomas Ryan began, that is was hired by the Philadelphia Police Department and began his training at the Police Academy? A. Yes, I have. Q. And can you tell us, please, according to the Philadelphia Police Department records, the date on which Officer Ryan -- or, I'm sorry -- before he became Officer Ryan, the date on which Thomas Ryan was hired and began his training at the Police Academy? A. Yes; that date was August 17th, 1981. Q. And can you identify for us, please, the date on which he graduated the Police Academy and was made a police officer? A. Yes, Officer Ryan graduated the Police Academy December 2lst, 1981. Q. And following his graduation from the Police Academy on December 2lst, 1981, did he become a uniformed officer? Page 189. Peggy Tolan - Direct A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And are you able to tell us the district to which he was then assigned on December the 2lst, 1981? A. Yes, he was assigned to the 39th District. Q. And that is what the records in the custody of the Philadelphia Police Department reflect? A. Yes, ma'am. MS. FISK: Thank you, ma'am. I have nothing further of Ms. Tolan, Your Honor. MR. WEINGLASS: May I see the records that are before the -- THE WITNESS: Sure. MR. WEINGLASS: Have these been marked? MS. FISK: It hasn't been. I will be happy to have it marked as Commonwealth Exhibit 6. THE COURT: We will have to make copies of it. MS. FISK: Yes, sir. I was just saving Roosevelt the walk. I didn't want him to start copying something: I suspected that there were additional ones coming. Page 190. Peggy Tolan - Cross (Employee history record was marked THE COURT OFFICER: So marked C-6, Your Honor (handing). (Pause) - - - - - CROSS-EXAMINATION - - - - - BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Tolan. A. Yes. Q. I have the document which has been marked Commonwealth 6 in front of me. Do you have a copy in front of you? A. Yes, I do. Q. Oh, good. THE COURT: Is that a copy you gave him? THE WITNESS: Yes, he can have that. THE COURT: Oh. MS. FISK: Which one's been marked? MR. WEINGLASS: This one's been marked. THE COURT: I guess that is a copy. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Page 191. Peggy Tolan - Cross Q. Well, going down the columns now that appear on Commonwealth 6 -- A. Yes. Q. -- it is indicated as you told us that Officer Ryan was appointed a correctional officer in June of '81. Is that correct? A. Yes, it is. Q. And then in July of '81 there is a notation for him, is there not? A. Yes, there is. Q. What is that notation? A. That specifies that he received a 10 percent pay increase. Q. Was that as a -- A. A 10 percent pay increase on 7-1-81. Q. Was that as a correction officer? A. Yes. Q. So he is still a correction officer? A. Yes, he is. Q. Are correction officers uniformed, by the way, to your knowledge? A. Not the same uniform that the police wear. Q. Are they uniformed? A. Yes. Q. All right, thank you. Now, on August 16th, Page 192. Peggy Tolan - Cross '81 he is promoted to the Police Department. You have told us that? A. Yes. Q. And he is appointed the next day? A. Yes. Q. August 17th. Is that correct? A. Yes. Q. Now, between August 17th, '81 and December 2lst, '81, is there any indication as to what he's doing? A. The officer is in the Police Academy. They spend approximately 5 months, 5-and-a-half months in training. They are assigned to the Police Academy, they are not full-fledged police officers at that time. Q. Right. And is there another document that reflects that? Because it is not reflected on C-6. A. No, sir, that's the way it's handled. Every police officer that if they have not been a police officer prior would spend that amount of time in the Police Academy. Q. I see. If they had been a correction officer prior, they would still spend that amount of time? A. Yes, yes. Q. And if they had been a truant officer prior to Page 193. Peggy Tolan - Cross that, they would still spend -- A. It would have no bearing on it at all. Q. Right. Do you know if Officer Ryan was a truant officer? A. No, sir. Q. Prior? Do you know if truant officers wore uniforms? A. No, sir, I have no knowledge of that. Q. Okay. Now, in the five months that he is in the Academy, could you just briefly describe what he does? Does he go to the Academy everyday? A. Yes, Monday through Friday. MS. FISK: Your Honor, this witness is called as a custodian of records with regard to the date Officer Ryan started in the Academy, the date he graduated the Academy and became a police officer. MR. WEINGLASS: No, Your Honor, this record says nothing about a Police Academy. We are relying -- and I accept that -- on the witness' testimony of what she knows. THE WITNESS: Sir, it does say the Police Academy. If you go across the page there is a P, period, A. That is Police Academy. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Page 194. Peggy Tolan - Cross Q. P.A.? A. P.A. Q. Okay. And you are assuming that he was there until December 21st because of your knowledge? A. Yes, sir. Q. Yeah. Even though it is not on this document, you know that? A. No, sir, it is on the document. MS. FISK: It is on the document, Your Honor, and I object. THE WITNESS: When a person is changed, his assignment is changed, it is reflected on the next line down. As you see when he goes to the 39th. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. When he goes to the Police Academy does he wear a uniform? A. Partial uniform. Q. When you say partial, does he wear a uniform shirt? A. Yes, sir. Q. Uniform pants? A. Yes, sir. Q. And are these the same color, if you know, back then as a police uniform? Page 195. Peggy Tolan - Cross A. Yes, they were. Q. They are? A. Hmm-hmm. Q. So if I saw an Academy candidate walking down the street, as a civilian, wearing a uniform, he would look much like a police officer but he wouldn't have a gun? A. He also wouldn't have a badge. Q. And he wouldn't have a badge? A. No, sir. Q. But he would have a hat, the shirt and the pants? A. Not necessarily the shirt; I believe they wear baseball caps in the Academy. Q. Right. But in the Academy? A. Hmm-hmm. Q. But would he have a hat? MS. FISK: She just said he had a baseball cap. THE COURT: They wear a baseball cap when they are in the Academy. MR. WEINGLASS: Thank you. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Now, these records that you have for Officer Ryan include, do they not, records of what happened Page 196. Peggy Tolan - Cross prior to his resignation in 1991? A. His history of assignments. Q. Yes? A. Yes. Q. Do they also include his history of being brought up on departmental charges? A. No, sir. Q. Where are those records? A. They would probably be with the personnel file. Q. I see. You don't have those records? A. No, sir. Q. That's in a separate office? A. No, sir. I was instructed to bring this. Q. I see. Those files are in your office, though, are they not? A. Yes, sir. Q. You were instructed only to bring these files? A. Yes, sir. MR. WEINGLASS: Okay. I have nothing further. MS. FISK: I just have one question. - - - - - REDIRECT EXAMINATION - - - - - Page 197. Peggy Tolan - Redirect BY MS. FISK: Q. Do corrections officers -- I'm sorry -- the document which has been marked reflects that Mr. Ryan before he entered the Academy was a corrections officer assigned to Welfare; is that correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Do persons in that capacity have the authority to drive Police Department vehicles? A. No, ma'am. Q. Do persons in the Police Academy have the authority to, outside of the Police Academy, other than learning to perhaps shift the car, have the authority to drive Police Department vehicles? A. No, no, they are not a sworn officer until graduation. MS. FISK: Thank you. - - - - - RECROSS-EXAMINATION - - - - - BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. One last: This is the employment, the employee history record which is C-6; is that right? A. Yes. Q. What is the entitlement of the record that you refer to that would indicate disciplinary charges? Page 198. Peggy Tolan - Recross A. It would be the personnel folder. Q. The personnel folder? A. Hmm-hmm. Q. And it is in your office? A. Not the original. Q. A copy is? A. A copy is. Q. And your office is the administrative office? A. Yes. Q. Located where? A. In the Police Administration Building, 8th and Race. MR. WEINGLASS: Right. Thank you, Ms. Tolan. THE WITNESS: Hmm-hmm. MS. FISK: Thank you. The Commonwealth next calls Detective Clarkson, Your Honor. I think they have the marked document of that last witness. THE COURT: Yes, put that with the rest of the documents. MS. FISK: Rosy, is this the one that was marked? THE COURT OFFICER: Yes, that is the Page 199. Lieutenant Thomas Clarkson - Direct one that was marked. It is marked on the front. THE COURT: Keep it with the other papers. THE COURT OFFICER: Well, right now he is making copies, my partner is making copies of the other one. He had already took the last. MS. FISK: Thank you. THE COURT OFFICER: Yes, sure. - - - - - Philadelphia Police Lieutenant Thomas
Clarkson, - - - - - DIRECT EXAMINATION - - - - - BY MS. FISK: Q. Lieutenant Clarkson, how long have you been a Philadelphia police officer? A. Since November 16th, 1981. Q. And what happened on November 16th, 1981, sir? A. I was sworn in at the Philadelphia Police Academy. Q. Oh. When did you graduate, though, the Police Academy, incidentally? Page 200. Lieutenant Thomas Clarkson - Direct A. I believe it was in March of '82. Q. During that period of time from November 16th, 1981 to March of '82, as a member of the Police Academy, did you, were you issued a uniform? A. No; we were told we had to wear white shirts and black pants. Q. And was that the standard -- A. With a black tie. Q. I'm sorry. When you entered the Academy on November 16th, 1981, was that what you were told to wear? A. Yes, that's correct. Q. And all persons who preceded you, at least when you arrived on November 16th, 1981, who were going through the Academy -- A. Yes. Q. -- wore similar outfits? A. Yes, to my knowledge. Q. I'm sorry. Were those provided to you or you simply had to buy your own? A. No, you had to find them. Back then it was kind of hard to find black pants and white shirts. Q. Upon graduating the Police Academy in March 1982 -- A. Yes, that's correct. Page 201. Lieutenant Thomas Clarkson - Direct Q. -- and becoming a uniformed police officer, were you placed in a police district? A. Yes; I was assigned to the 39th District from the Police Academy. Q. Now, you are currently a lieutenant? A. Yes. Q. So if you will just take us generally through your career: At what point did you stop becoming a uniformed police officer and go up in rank? A. I believe it was in 1988 I was promoted to corporal. And in 1991 I guess it was to sergeant; and I guess it was 1994 as lieutenant. Q. And what is your current assignment as a lieutenant, sir? A. I am at the Advanced Training Unit of the Philadelphia Police Department. We do all State-mandated training that is required. Q. Now, Lieutenant, you have told us that when you first became a uniformed officer in March 1982, you were assigned to the 39th Police District? A. That's correct. Q. Did you have occasion at any time after being assigned to the 39th Police District in March 1982 to ever work a police wagon with Police Officer Thomas Ryan? Page 202. Lieutenant Thomas Clarkson - Direct A. Yes. Q. Now, in that capacity, were you and Officer Ryan at that point both uniformed police officers? A. Yes, we were both uniformed police officers. Q. And what squad were you working? A. We were working 3 Squad. Q. And what does that mean when you say you were working 3 Squad, what does that define? A. Well, at that time the Police Department was divided into four squads. And that was the squad we worked. We worked six days on, two days off. Q. And were there printed calendars to show -- A. Yes, there was. Q. To show when your squad was working? A. Yes; we had a calendar for the year. MS. FISK: May I ask, Your Honor, well, may I ask, Your Honor, that this document be marked as Commonwealth Exhibit... THE COURT OFFICER: 7. MS. FISK: 7. (75-48 Police Incident Report was marked (Discussion was held off the record among defense Counsel.) Page 203. Lieutenant Thomas Clarkson - Direct THE COURT OFFICER: So marked C-7, Your Honor. BY MS. FISK: Q. Lieutenant Clarkson, would you please identify what has been marked as Commonwealth Exhibit 7? A. This is a 75-48 Complaint or Incident Report we used in the Philadelphia Police Department. And it has a place of occurrence, Pulaski and Hunting Park. And it says under Details, it says sight, truancy. And the name was Pamela Jenkins, a Negro female. And I have date of birth, 9-1-65; 1712 West Tioga Street, Philadelphia, PA; and phone number; and notified mother that she was a truant. The date on the 48 is June l0th, 1982. And the time of this truancy was 10:15 a.m. I was working that day with Police Officer Thomas Ryan and we were working an emergency patrol wagon, 3900 wagon. Q. Was this document prepared by you? A. Yes, this is my handwriting, ma'am. Q. And was this prepared by you on the date that this truancy stop of Pamela Jenkins took place? A. That's correct. Q. And again what is the date that that truancy stop of Pamela Jenkins took place? Page 204. Lieutenant Thomas Clarkson - Direct A. June l0th, 1982. Q. And the location, please? A. Pulaski and Hunting Park. Q. Where is that in relation to Gratz High School? A. Oh, it's about a block away. MS. FISK: I have nothing further of this witness, Your Honor. - - - - - CROSS-EXAMINATION - - - - - BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Lieutenant Clarkson, good afternoon. A. Good afternoon. Q. So it is your testimony that Tom Ryan arrested Pamela Jenkins for truancy; is that right? A. Well, she was taken into the 39th District for truancy. Q. By Tom Ryan? A. And myself. Was transported to the 39th District. I don't know if she was arrested or not. Q. Right. A. We just notified her mother. Q. She was taken, she was physically put in the van and transported? Page 205. Lieutenant Thomas Clarkson - Cross A. That's correct. Q. And Tom Ryan did that? A. It was me and Tom Ryan, we were both working the wagon, in a wagon in the Philadelphia Police Department, that is operated by two individuals or two police officers, sir. Q. This might not be fair to ask but do you remember who was driving? A. Probably because I made the paperwork up, probably Officer Ryan was driving. And since he had a little bit more time on than me I was probably the recorder. Q. Right. Do you, by the way, have an independent recollection of Pamela Jenkins? A. No, I do not. Q. You don't remember her at all? A. No, sir. Q. Do you know how old she was when she was arrested -- or, I'm sorry -- picked up? A. I just have her date of birth of 9-1-65, so however old she would be as of June 10th. She was a student at Gratz High School. Q. Yes. Yes, she was about 16; is that correct? A. I don't know, whatever. Q. You can't do the math? Page 206. Lieutenant Thomas Clarkson - Cross MS. FISK: Whatever 9-1-65 to June l0th, 1982 comes out to, we will agree that that was her age. THE COURT: Well, June is not her birthday so you will have to go a year back. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. So that makes her 16, right? THE COURT: It makes her what? MR. WEINGLASS: 16. MS. FISK: 15. I can't add, Judge. (Pause) MS. FISK: I am advised, Your Honor, by someone who can add that she would be turning 16 the following September. She's 15 and 10 months. MR. WEINGLASS.: Okay. MR. BURNS: Eight months. Nine months. MR. WEINGLASS: Okay. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. So she is 15. And Tom Ryan picks her up for truancy in your presence, you and Tom Ryan? A. Yes, we were working the wagon together. Q. Do you know what developed in the relationship between Pamela Jenkins and Tom Ryan thereafter? Page 207. Lieutenant Thomas Clarkson - Cross A. No, I am not aware of that. Q. You are not aware of it? Did you continue to work with Tom Ryan? A. For several years thereafter, then he went to a different squad and I was promoted. Q. How long were you his partner? A. I was never his partner. We were just assigned for that day. It was very unusual that Tom Ryan and I worked together. And especially a wagon. Q. I see. Do you know if Tom Ryan knew Pamela Jenkins before you all picked her up for truancy? A. I don't recall that he knew her then. He never said anything to me, sir, that I could recall. Q. So you can't say that he didn't know her before, you just don't know? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: He just answered that question. He said what he said. It is not fair for you to interpret it. The Supreme Court will interpret it. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. To your recollection, what was Pamela Jenkins doing when she was picked up? A. She was outside a block or so away from Gratz High School and she should have been in school. So Page 208. Lieutenant Thomas Clarkson - Cross knowing the location of Pulaski and Hunting Park, there is a steak shop or, walk-up steak shop and pretzel store. Q. Do you know if she was working as a prostitute? A. I have no knowledge of that, sir. Q. Did you have knowledge -- how long were you in the 39th at that time? A. Oh, just several months. I got out of the Academy, I guess it was March of '82. So March, April, May, June -- three months, sir. A little less. Q. That's all you were there for, just that time? MS. FISK: At that time. THE WITNESS: At this instance, yes. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. But after that did you stay at the 39th? A. Yes, I stayed with the 39th. Q. For how long? A. 1988, I believe, or something around there. I'm not sure of the date. Q. So you stayed there for five, six years? A. That's correct. Q. Were you aware of the fact that police officers were using prostitutes as informants at that Page 209. Lieutenant Thomas Clarkson - Cross time? A. No. MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor: It is beyond the scope of this witness. THE COURT: Well, he said no. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Did you say no? A. No, I didn't know that. Q. You didn't know that? A. No, sir. Q. You later found out they were? A. I still don't know that, sir. Q. Did you hear that they were? A. No, sir. Q. Did you read that they were? A. Read that they were using prostitutes? Q. Yes. A. No. Q. Were you aware of Tom Ryan's case? A. What case, sir? Q. Where he pled guilty. A. Yes, I'm aware of that. Q. Is this the only time to your knowledge that Pamela was stopped for truancy? A. I have no knowledge other than this day. Page 210. Lieutenant Thomas Clarkson - Cross Q. Were you ever told by anyone that Pamela Jenkins was working as an informant for Tom Ryan? A. No, I was not. Q. Incidentally, back in 1982, when you were on this assignment on this day, June l0th, was it your practice that if you saw a person who was a teenager who should have been in school, you would stop them and pick them up and do what you did on this day? A. That's correct. Q. Right. And if someone were a runaway they would also be stopped if you could find them? A. Yeah, they would be stopped and taken back home, notified, her parents would have been notified. (Discussion was held off the record among defense Counsel. MR. WEINGLASS: Yes, may we have Commonwealth 7 for a moment. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. When you do this kind of a pickup of a truant, is it an arrest or is it just something less than an arrest? A. I believe that the Juvenile Aid Division would decide that, I don't make that decision. Q. Did you as a police officer refer to it as an arrest? Page 211. Lieutenant Thomas Clarkson - Cross A. I don't recall if we referred to it as an arrest or not. Q. So if Tom Ryan under oath testified that he had never arrested Pamela Jenkins, would that in your opinion, having done this with him on June l0th, '82, be true? A. That she might not have been arrested. It depends what the Juvenile Aid Division does. I don't know what happened after this case, after we brought her in. Q. When you -- I am not familiar with this practice. When you see a truant like in this particular instance, you get out of your vehicle, you call the truant over to your vehicle? A. No, we would get out of our vehicle. Q. You get out. And you go and you approach the truant and talk to the truant. Is that correct? A. Yes. Q. Then how do you get the truant into your vehicle? A. We put handcuffs on them and put them in the back of the wagon for custody. Q. They are handcuffed? A. You know, I don't -- I believe they would be, yeah. Page 212. Lieutenant Thomas Clarkson - Cross Q. Yeah. Because of going into the back of your vehicle? A. That's right. Q. For no other reason than your safety? A. Right. Q. So they are handcuffed, and they are put in the vehicle, is that right, then they are transported to the station? A. That's correct. Q. Are they free to leave from the vehicle, can they say wait a minute, I don't want to go to the station? A. No, they are not free to leave, they are in custody. Q. Right. Okay. And to your current recollection, this is the only time you saw Pamela Jenkins? A. To my knowledge, yes. Q. In all the time that you were at the 39th District? A. I don't recall ever running into her again, sir. Q. But you did run into Tom Ryan again. I am not saying you worked with him but you saw him? A. We worked in the same squad, yes. Page 213. Lieutenant Thomas Clarkson - Cross Q. You worked in the same squad? And you didn't know what his relationship was with Pamela Jenkins after this truancy arrest? A. No. Q. Have you talked to him since he's been put out of the Police Department? A. This is the first -- MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: I think you are going a little bit too far, you are going on a fishing expedition. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Did he ever indicate to you what his relationship with Pamela Jenkins became at any time? A. No, sir. MR. WEINGLASS: Nothing further. MS. FISK: I have nothing further, Your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. You are excused. THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honor. MS. FISK: Corporal Tobin, please. - - - - - Philadelphia Police Corporal George Tobin, Badge number
8062, Page 214. Corporal George Tobin - Direct - - - - - DIRECT EXAMINATION - - - - - BY MS. FISK: Q. Corporal Tobin, good afternoon, sir. A. Good afternoon. Q. Corporal Tobin, what is your position in the Philadelphia Police Department? A. I'm a corporal, I'm working in the documents processing unit at 8th and Race in Room 205, the 75-48 section. Q. Now let me start with how long have you been a Philadelphia police officer? A. 15 years. Q. Now, your position as a corporal in the documents processing section, 75-48 section, can you tell us what that means? A. 48s are written through the City, it's the initial police report. Q. Yes, sir. A. Police incident report. They come to me, they are put in order. They are stored. When they are requested by attorneys, private citizens, investigators, they are copied, mailed out. After Page 215. Corporal George Tobin - Direct approximately two years from the date of an incident, they are placed on microfilm and stored in my unit. Q. And are you here as the custodian of records, then, for all of those 75-48s, both current and more than two years old, which exist on microfilm in the City of Philadelphia Police Department? A. Yes, I am. Q. Now, in that capacity, Corporal, did you have occasion this week to search for 75-48s in the period of 1982? A. Yes, I did. Q. And specifically, were you asked to search starting with -- I'm sorry -- MS. FISK: May I please have Commonwealth Exhibit 5: The school records? BY MS. FISK: Q. Were you asked to search for 75-48s produced from the 39th District beginning on January the 19th, 1982, in which an Officer Tom Ryan was involved? A. Yes, I was. Q. And specifically were you asked to search for any 75-48 involving Officer Tom Ryan which involved a truancy stop of a Pamela Jenkins? A. Yes, I was. Q. Now, for the period of -- I'm sorry -- were Page 216. Corporal George Tobin - Direct you told to go through the end of June 1982? A. Ahh, yes, I have a copy of the request. If I could look at it I could give you the date. Q. Sure. A. I checked up until... Q. Yes. (Pause.) A. The date was actually January 18th, 1982. And the ending date was June 14th, 1982. It's not all dates, it was certain dates. Q. Then I am going to clarify. Are you familiar with the squad calendar? A. Yes, I am. Q. What is a squad calendar? A. A squad calendar, if it is from 1982, or from a four-platoon system, each platoon had their own calendar to tell them which days they were working, which days they were off. MS. FISK: May I approach the witness, Your Honor? THE COURT: (Indicating). MS. FISK: Thank you. BY MS. FISK: Q. I am handing to you, sir, a document. Is that a squad calendar for 3 Squad for uniformed officers Page 217. Corporal George Tobin - Direct for the calendar year 1982? A. That's what it appears to be, yes. Q. And do you recognize that as the type of calendar that a 3 Squad officer would have back in 1982? A. Yes, I do. Q. Now utilizing that calendar, can you tell the days that a 3 Squad officer, a person in 3 Squad was assigned to work day work, as opposed to 4:00-to-midnight shift, as opposed to a midnight-to-8:00-in-the-morning shift? A. Yes, I can. Q. All right. Were you, utilizing that squad calendar, asked, when you were being asked to search for 75-48s that are recorded on microfilm because they are more than two years old, asked to restrict yourself to those days that a 3 Squad officer, between January 18th, 1982 and the June date that you gave us, had day work? A. Okay, actually, I didn't work off of this schedule. Q. Yes, sir. A. I worked off -- a detective from Homicide -- Q. Yes? A. -- supplied me with a sheet of paper with Page 218. Corporal George Tobin - Direct dates. Q. And I want you to look just briefly if you can, please, at the schedule you have? A. Sure. Q. And tell me whether those are the dates that you checked? (Pause) Q. Oh, and restricting yourself to the weekdays Monday through Friday when school is in session. A. Okay, what makes this a little bit different on the squad schedules is -- Q. Yes, sir? A. -- you don't have a real date. Q. You have to have another calendar? A. Right. To give you the date. I can tell you that 3 Squad in January worked day work Monday through Thursday just one time, and those dates that I have listed are 1-18, 19, 20 and 21. Q. So you were given day work dates from January 18th through June 1982? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Did you, beginning then with January 18th, 1982, read on microfiche every single 75-48 generated from the 39th District to check for a 75-48 that involved Officer Ryan and a truancy stop of Page 219. Corporal George Tobin - Direct Pamela Jenkins? A. Okay, what I did, because it was a truancy stop, I limited the search between 7:00 a.m. and 4:00 p.m. Q. Because that's the only time people can be declared truant? A. And it was actually giving an hour before school and maybe an hour after school had closed. And they are the 48s that I reviewed for truancies. Q. All right. January 18th through June the 9th of 1982, did you find any? A. No, I did not. Q. Can the witness please be shown Commonwealth Exhibit 7. THE COURT OFFICER: Yes (handing). MS. FISK: Thank you. BY MS. FISK: Q. Is Commonwealth Exhibit 7 a copy of a 75-48 which you found? A. Yes, it is. Q. And is Commonwealth Exhibit 7 an accurate photocopy of the 75-48 which appears and exists in the microfiche records of the Philadelphia Police Department? A. Yes, it is. Page 220. Corporal George Tobin - Direct Q. Now, did you also check, then, to the final date in June? A. There was two days left. I checked them because I had already checked a lot, a lot of days. And there were no more. Q. So this was the only one that you found involving Pamela Jenkins and Officer Ryan? A. Yes. Q. And the date of that is reflected as what, please? A. The date is 6-10-82. MS. FISK: Thank you, sir. I have nothing further of the corporal, Your Honor. - - - - - CROSS-EXAMINATION - - - - - BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Corporal Tobin, good afternoon. A. Good afternoon, sir. Q. Were you asked to check the records for the year 1981? A. '81? Q. Yes. A. No, I was not. Page 221. Corporal George Tobin - Cross Q. Your 75-48s include truancy arrests? A. 75-48s at that time included just about everything. It is an initial police incident report. You would write that out on pedestrian investigations, on up to a major crime. I mean it was the initial contact report. Q. I see. Were there truancy officers back then? A. I don't know. Q. If you know. A. I can go back to when I was a kid and tell you they were. And they weren't wearing a uniform. And they rode a motor scooter, you know. But since I have been on this job, I couldn't tell you. Q. They were in uniform? A. When I was a child? Q. Yes. A. No, they were not in uniform. They drove around on a motor scooter. Q. Later on did they become? A. I don't know. Q. When you do the search that you have described, you search it, do I have it correctly, by squad? A. For the 48? Q. Yes. Page 222. Corporal George Tobin - Cross A. The way I had to search it was 1982, the search was for 3 Squad during the day work tour. So we had to figure out what days 3 Squad would be working day work, take those dates and look at the 48s that were written by the entire 39th District between 7:00 a.m. and 4:00 p.m. for a truancy incident. Q. I see. And you were told to focus on 3 Squad? That was part of your instructions? A. Actually, I wasn't really told the squad. What I was told was an incident report with Officer Ryan and Pamela Jenkins involving a truancy. Q. So you looked through all the squads? A. No, no, I was supplied, from a Homicide detective I was supplied dates and to only look on those dates. Q. Only on those dates? A. Yeah. And looking at this schedule now, it looks like 3 Squad, just a rough review of it, was working day work on the dates that I was supplied. Weekdays. Q. How many dates were you supplied? Just approximate. Q. (Pause) A. Looks like approximately 32. Page 223. Corporal George Tobin - Cross Q. 32 dates? A. 32 days. Q. You have in that 6-month period? A. That's correct. Q. Do you know why those 32 dates? A. Well, because they were looking for a truancy, I assumed that the officer worked in a particular squad which I now know is 3 Squad. They would be the only days he would work Monday through Friday. Q. Right? A. You know, on those particular dates. That's why in one month we have eight or nine days and in another month you only have 4. Q. Right. If an officer worked on a different squad? A. The dates would be different. Q. Would be different. You wouldn't have found those dates? A. If I was supplied with the dates for 3 Squad, I would not have found an officer working 2 Squad during the time frame that I searched. Q. Right. Or 4 squad? A. Exactly. MR. WEINGLASS: Right. Okay. I have nothing further. Thank you. Page 224. Detective Joseph Walsh - Direct MS. FISK: I have nothing further of the corporal. And, finally, Your Honor, Detective Walsh, very briefly. - - - - - Philadelphia Police Detective Joseph Walsh, Badge number
697, - - - - - DIRECT EXAMINATION - - - - - BY MS. FISK: Q. Detective Walsh, you are currently a Homicide detective? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Are you the detective who provided the dates to Corporal Tobin to search for a 75-48 that has been marked and identified? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Would you please tell us how you arrived at the dates which Corporal Tobin was given? A. The officer, Officer Ryan, from the time he was assigned out of the Police Academy in December of '81, until years later when he became a burglary Page 225. Detective Joseph Walsh - Direct detail officer sometime I believe in 1984, '85, worked exclusively in 3 Squad. And I obtained a 3 Squad calendar and I wrote down a list of all the days that 3 Squad, Monday to Friday, would have been working day work where he would have had an opportunity to come in contact with Pamela Jenkins on a truancy. Q. So were the dates which you gave Corporal Tobin all dates after Pamela Jenkins became a student at Simon Gratz High School in which Officer Thomas Ryan was working day work on a weekday? A. That's correct. Q. And each and every one of those days were the dates that were supplied to Corporal Tobin for searching? A. That's correct, ma'am. MS. FISK: Thank you, sir. Nothing further, Your Honor. - - - - - CROSS-EXAMINATION - - - - - BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. These are dates that you ascertained by looking at records; is that correct? Is that right? A. The squad calendar (displaying)? Page 226. Detective Joseph Walsh - Cross Q. Right. A. Right. Q. Did you see Officer Ryan in Court today? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. I believe it's beyond the scope of this witness, Your Honor. MR. WEINGLASS: He is telling us that he figured out the days by looking at records that Officer Ryan worked. Officer Ryan was here today, why didn't he ask him. THE COURT: Well, why don't you ask him if he asked him. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Did you ask Officer Ryan today what days he worked? A. From 1982? Q. Yes. A. No, sir. Q. You didn't ask. You did see him in Court today, didn't you? A. That's correct. Q. Did you have any conversation with him? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor: This is beyond the scope. And I would note that Officer Ryan was subpoenaed by the defense to be Page 227. Detective Joseph Walsh - Cross here today. Nevertheless, that is not the point. MR. WEINGLASS: He was, exactly. MS. FISK: The point is that the squad calendar reflects the dates that a 3 Squad officer worked, and that is the sole purpose for which this witness has been called. THE COURT: Okay. Limit yourself to that. BY MR. WEINGLASS: Q. Detective Walsh, did you tell Tom Ryan he could go home? A. No, sir. Q. Did you talk to him? A. Today? Q. Yes. A. Yes, sir. Q. What did you talk about? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: Where are you going? Is this an inquisition or something? MR. WEINGLASS: We are putting in all these documents about Tom Ryan. He was here and he was available as a witness. THE COURT: Well, why don't you call Page 228. him. MR. WEINGLASS: Exactly. We will call him. THE COURT: When? MR. WEINGLASS: I accept the invitation. As soon as this witness is completed. THE COURT: Okay. Then ask him. MR. WEINGLASS: Okay, fine. With Tom Ryan on the stand, I have no further questions of Detective Walsh. THE COURT: Okay. MS. FISK: I have nothing further, Your Honor. Detective, the 48's been marked. Thank you, sir. Your Honor, I have no further witnesses. Your Honor, I would move into evidence all of these documents, Commonwealth Exhibits 1 through 7, and ask that they become part of the record in this matter. THE COURT: So admitted. MR. WEINGLASS: We would make the same request with respect to Defendant's 1 through 4. THE COURT: All right. Page 229. (Discussion was held off the record among defense Counsel.) MR. WEINGLASS: If we may have just a moment. Defense calls Tom Ryan. Thomas F. Ryan, having been duly sworn, MR. WILLIAMS: Judge, I am going to inquire of this witness. - - - - - DIRECT EXAMINATION - - - - - BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. Mr. Ryan, good afternoon. A. Good afternoon. Q. Are you the Officer Ryan with the badge number when you were a police officer 4580? A. That's correct. Q. The same Officer Ryan with the 39th District? A. That's correct. Q. Are you the same Officer Ryan that owns a red pickup truck? A. At one time. Page 230. Thomas Ryan - Direct Q. Did you own a red pickup truck back in 19, in the early 1980's? A. No. Q. When did you first own a red pickup truck? A. 1987. Q. Has Pamela Jenkins ever been in your red pickup truck? A. I don't know if she's been in it. She's been in the presence of it. Q. Has a woman by the name of Cynthia White ever been inside your red pickup truck? A. I don't know a Cynthia White. Q. How about a prostitute that goes by the name of Lucky: Has a Lucky been inside your red pickup truck? A. Not to my knowledge. Q. How about a woman named Joan Downs -- D-O-W-N-S -- has Ms. Downs been in your red pickup truck? A. No. Q. Or Ms. Downs has certainly been in the presence of your red pickup truck; isn't that true? A. Yes. Q. By the way, Ms. Downs also goes by the nickname Peanut? Page 231. Thomas Ryan - Direct A. Not to my knowledge. Q. In any event, you know a Ms. Downs? A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, I take it because Ms. Jenkins has been in the presence of your red pickup truck that you know her? A. That's correct. Q. Why don't you explain to us how it is that you came to know Pamela Jenkins? A. As was stated in earlier testimony, I came in contact with her on June l0th, 1982. Q. Okay. Now, today is not the first time you've had to testify under oath in connection with your relationship with Pamela Jenkins; isn't that true? A. That's correct. Q. You've had to testify about your relationship with Pamela Jenkins in connection with a murder trial, Commonwealth versus Raymond Carter, true? A. That's correct. Q. Now, and you were asked questions about Pamela Jenkins, do you recall that? A. I recall being asked questions. Q. At this murder trial? A. Yes. Q. And you recall being asked this question and Page 232. Thomas Ryan - Direct giving this answer? Question: How long had you known Pamela Jenkins as of September 1986. Your answer: Five years. Do you recall that? A. No, I don't recall that. Q. Okay. Do you want to see your testimony (displaying) where you said that you had known her for five years as of September of 1986? A. I could review it, I don't recall it. MR. WILLIAMS: I will be glad to show it to you. THE COURT OFFICER: Counsel, I will take care of that. MR. WILLIAMS: Thanks. Great, thanks. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. Now, before you look at that: Just five years prior to 1986 would send us, of September of 1986, would send us back to September of 1981; isn't that true? A. You are asking me before I review this? Q. Yes, if you have September of 1986 as a date, and you go five years back, you go back to September of 1981; isn't that true? A. Chronologically, that's correct. Page 233. Thomas Ryan - Direct Q. Okay, now look at your testimony. A. Which part, sir? Q. It's bracketed there. The question is how long had you known Ms. Jenkins since September of 1986. And you said five years? A. Yes, I see that. Q. You were under oath, weren't you? A. Yes, sir. Q. In a murder trial, right? A. That's correct. Q. Rather serious charges, right? MS. FISK: This is direct examination and I ask Counsel to restrict himself to questions appropriate for direct examination. MR. WILLIAMS: Okay, I will do that. MS. FISK: Thank you. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. Were you telling the truth in the murder trial of this case: Commonwealth versus Raymond Carter? A. Yes, I was telling the truth. Q. Good. I will take the transcripts back. MS. FISK: May I have an opportunity to review it, please? MR. WILLIAMS: Great. MS. FISK: Thank you. Page 234. Thomas Ryan - Direct (Pause) MS. FISK: Counsel (handing). MR. WILLIAMS: Thanks. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. It is your testimony that the circumstances under which you met Ms. Jenkins for the first time is in connection with a truancy? A. Yes, sir. Q. Why don't you describe to us exactly what happened in connection with this truancy, when you first met Ms. Jenkins? A. Well, as I can best recall at this time, I was working a patrol wagon assigned to 39th District, 3 Squad, working the day shift tour of duty. And I was patrolling in the vicinity of Simon Gratz High School. And sometime during the school hours that day, observed Ms. Jenkins and others outside of the school building on a public street. Q. And what did you do when you saw that? A. Well, they were supposed to be in school so therefore that made them truants from school. And they were taken into the 39th District for that violation. Q. All right, when you say taken into the 39th District, what do you mean? Page 235. Thomas Ryan - Direct A. Specifically, they were placed in the patrol wagon and driven to the 39th District headquarters at 22nd and Hunting Park Avenue. Q. Was she placed in the wagon against her will? A. No, she was placed in custody. Q. When you say in custody, is that another way of saying that she was arrested? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor: That is a legal term of art. MR. WILLIAMS: Well, he was a police officer. MS. FISK: And Counsel has MS. Jenkins' record and knows that she was not arrested in 1981 or 1982 at any time and ever charged with truancy. And I know Counsel has obtained her criminal records. And she clearly was not arrested, that is fingerprinted and processed and arrested and charged. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: We tried to, we have been precluded. Could we get them? We would love them. THE COURT: Okay, Counsel, stay away from that, please. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. Was she handcuffed? Page 236. Thomas Ryan - Direct A. I don't recall. Q. She was placed in the vehicle and not free to leave: Fair to say? A. That's correct, she was being transported. Q. Is it your testimony -- I just want to get your state of mind -- when you had her in your vehicle and she wasn't free to leave, would you consider that to be an arrest of an individual? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained, sustained. Even the Courts can't agree on that, so what are you asking him for. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. Can you say under oath today that at the time you took her into custody in 1982 that it was not an arrest? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. WILLIAMS: Well. MS. FISK: Your Honor -- THE COURT: You argue that up with the Supreme Court when you get there. You could argue whether it is an arrest or what it was. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. In the same trial, sir, with the Commonwealth Page 237. Thomas Ryan - Direct as the prosecutor, do you recall being asked this question and giving this answer? Question regarding your relationship with Ms. Jenkins, was that, was that -- referring to your relationship -- as a result of you arresting her on various occasions. Your answer: I have never arrested her. Do you recall that? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor, and move to strike. MR. WILLIAMS: Judge, I am only confronting him with prior testimony. THE COURT: Objection is sustained. Strike it from the record. You can argue that upstairs when you go back there. MR. WILLIAMS: Why, she was asked by the district -- THE COURT: I said you could argue it back there. They will make a decision whether it was an arrest or whether it wasn't. MR. WILLIAMS: Judge, I am only asking him about his prior testimony. THE COURT: I said you will argue that Page 238. Thomas Ryan - Direct up in the Supreme Court when you go back there. MR. WILLIAMS: All right, let me refer to the page so that that Supreme Court will know where I'm referring to. Referring to the trial testimony of Commonwealth versus Carter at page 112, line 16 through 18. And then in fact on page 1 -- I'm sorry -- 112, line 16 through 18, and then page 114, line 16 through 20, where the Commonwealth uses the term arrest in asking him the very same question. MS. FISK: And again I object and move to strike. MR. WILLIAMS: Of course she does. MS. FISK: I know those pages have been noted on the record. THE COURT: I know the Commonwealth asked her. What did the Supreme Court say? If they made an issue of it, did the Supreme Court rule on it? I don't know: The case wasn't in front of me, I can't answer that. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. Well, let me see. You were in the Police Academy in 1981; is that right? A. That's correct. Q. Now, did you consider yourself to be a police Page 239. Thomas Ryan - Direct officer as of 1981? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sure, when he went and graduated he considered himself as a police officer. Why not? BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. When did you graduate? A. December, I believe, 19th, of 1981. Q. Now, do you have an understanding as to whether law enforcement during your tenure as a police officer ever used prostitutes as sources of information? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: What is the purpose of it? MR. WILLIAMS: Well, Judge, you just heard from Pamela Jenkins -- THE COURT: Why don't you ask him a definite question on Pamela Jenkins. MR. WILLIAMS: I am going to get to that. THE COURT: Well, get to it right now, don't waste my time. It is a quarter after 4:00. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. Well, officer, have you ever used prostitutes Page 240. Thomas Ryan - Direct as sources of information? MS. FISK: I object to that question, Your Honor. I thought we were restricted to the witnesses involved in this proceeding. THE COURT: Yes. Why aren't you? MR. WILLIAMS: I am asking him about his practice, Your Honor. THE COURT: Don't ask him about his practice. Nobody asked you about your practice. Just ask him if he hired Pamela Jones. That's what we are interested in, isn't it? MS. FISK: Jenkins. THE COURT: Or Jenkins. Even after all that I am getting confused. MR. WILLIAMS: All right, well, let's do that. THE COURT: Yes, I wish you would. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. We have this woman Pamela Jenkins who you say you arrested, right? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. That is not what he said. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. That you took into custody; correct? A. I transported. Page 241. Thomas Ryan - Direct Q. Okay. Now, that is not the last time you've had any dealings with Pamela Jenkins, true? A. Could you be more specific? Q. Well, let me ask you: Have you ever had any dealings with Pamela Jenkins after this whatever you want to call it, taking Ms. Jenkins into custody for truancy, have you had dealings with her after that? A. In what respect, sir? Q. In any respect, sir. Have you had any dealings whatsoever with Pamela Jenkins after taking her into custody in 1982? A. Yes. Q. Why don't you describe to the Court what kinds of dealings you've had with her since that date? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. MR. WILLIAMS: Judge, it is an open-ended question. THE COURT: Wait a while. MS. FISK: I understand it is an open-ended question. Ms. Jenkins' testimony which was offered by the defense was that it was several months after she first met Officer Ryan that she became his informant and several demands were placed upon her and that she had further conversations. The clear, unequivocal Page 242. Thomas Ryan - Direct evidence based on documents and records that have been presented this afternoon shows that that contact with Ms. Jenkins occurred, first contact on June the l0th, 1982. And I would note that the Court records reflect that the trial against Mr. Jamal began on June the lst, 1982, and was completed in the early part of July 1982. Based upon that, any contact that former officer Ryan had with Ms. Jenkins thereafter is absolutely irrelevant and has no bearing on the testimony which she presented, which she claimed -- though clearly incorrectly -- all took place prior to the trial. THE COURT: So she didn't present any testimony at the trial? MS. FISK: No, no, at today's proceeding. THE COURT: Oh, okay. MR. WILLIAMS: Judge, that is all very nice, but we have testimony under oath from this officer who says that he has known Ms. Jenkins five years prior to September of 1986. My calculation is -- Page 243. Thomas Ryan - Direct THE COURT: I am not interested in what happened after that, I am only interested in what she said today. MR. WILLIAMS: That's what I am exploring. THE COURT: Well, explore that. Ask him a definite question on that. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. Has Ms. Jenkins ever been an informant for you? A. Yes. Q. Has she ever been a paid informant for you? A. Yes. Q. And you were asked questions about this so-called professional relationship you had with Ms. Jenkins back in 1988, the Carter case; isn't that true? A. Could you refresh my memory? Q. Well, do you recall being asked this question and giving this answer in his 1988 trial? Did you have a professional relationship -- referring to Ms. Jenkins -- has she provided you with information in other cases. Answer: Yes. Does that refresh your recollection? Page 244. Thomas Ryan - Direct A. I don't recall that from, from my mind right now. Q. You recall that she has given you information on a variety of cases: True? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is she the only prostitute that you used for information? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. How long has she been an informant for you? MS. FISK: Objection. THE COURT: It looks to me like you are on a fishing expedition. MR. WILLIAMS: No, I am not. THE COURT: Now, wait a while. He is your witness, now ask direct questions. MR. WILLIAMS: That is about as direct as you can get. THE COURT: I know but there is no end -- MR. WILLIAMS: Do you want me to lead the witness? I will be glad to do that. THE COURT: If that's the only way you can get your witness to testify I guess you will Page 245. Thomas Ryan - Direct have to. MS. FISK: I would object to Counsel leading the witness, Your Honor. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. How long was she your informant? THE COURT: I sustained an objection to that, didn't I? MR. WILLIAMS: That is a direct question, Judge. You asked me to give a direct question. MS. FISK: And my objection is based on relevance, Your Honor. MR. WILLIAMS: Judge, it is relevant as to Ms. Jenkins' credibility. Ms. Jenkins came in and told you she was an informant for this man. Now I will bolster this testimony through the testimony of Mr. Ryan. THE COURT: Why don't you limit it to a specific time so he could answer you. MR. WILLIAMS: I will get to it. THE COURT: Well, get to it right now. It is almost 4:30. I will cut you off if you don't. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. During what period of time was she an Page 246. Thomas Ryan - Direct informant for you? A. The 1980's. Q. Now, was this pursuant to a policy or a practice within the 39th District? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. Or was this an independent judgment on your part to use her as an informant? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: I will sustain that objection. We all know what informants are. MR. WILLIAMS: Well, I want to know if it was through some kind of policy with the Police Department. THE COURT: Well, why don't you ask the Police Department. MR. WILLIAMS: I have got a representative from the Police Department here. MS. FISK: No, you don't. THE COURT: No. MR. WILLIAMS: He may be discredited but he would know. MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. MR. WILLIAMS: Why, he would know, he is in a position to know. Page 247. Thomas Ryan - Direct MS. FISK: He is in a position to know what he did with regard to Ms. Jenkins and that is the relevancy for this proceeding. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. Okay, and did you do what you did with respect to Ms. Jenkins as a result of a directive or your own volition? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. MR. WILLIAMS: Let's hear the basis for that one. MS. FISK: The testimony has to be about Ms. Jenkins and her assertions that this person as an officer made allegations or tried to force her to do things, and that is the purpose for which he is being presented by the defense. Not his policy, not his practice, not his contact with other persons, but his contact with Ms. Jenkins in regard to her testimony regarding asking her to testify or trying to get her to testify or identify Mr. Jamal as the person who shot Officer Faulkner. MR. BURNS: In short, there is no foundation. THE COURT: Why don't you limit yourself to that, Counselor. That's what Ms. Page 248. Thomas Ryan - Direct Jenkins said, so. If you want him to substantiate her, why don't you ask it. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. First of all, when you were using her as an informant through the '80s as you testified, you also knew that she was a prostitute, true? A. At one point, yes. Q. Well, you say at one point. What do you mean by that? A. Well, at another point in time I didn't know she was a prostitute. Q. You came to learn that she was a prostitute? A. From time to time, that's correct. When her addiction got severe. Q. Did any superior officers know that you were using her as an informant? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. WILLIAMS: Of course there is an objection. Anytime we seem to be probing into areas that might be of danger to the Commonwealth we hear an objection. THE COURT: Probe somewhere else. You are here for a specific purpose. Stick to that purpose. Page 249. Thomas Ryan - Direct BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. How did you, when you began using Ms. Jenkins as an informant, how did you get her to agree to be an informant for you? A. She would come forward and supply information regarding criminal activity. Q. And what would you do with that information? A. Try to corroborate it. Q. Okay. And would you pass it on to other officers? A. If it was warranted. Q. And in a serious case like a murder case, if she says that she has information you would pass it on to a detective, wouldn't you? A. That's correct .--Q. And you did that in the Carter case, for example? A. That's correct. Q. You passed on Ms. Jenkins and you introduced her to a Detective Settle, I believe it is? A. That's correct, sir. Q. Now, since we are on that subject in connection with the investigation in the Carter case, where you brought Ms. Jenkins to see another detective, were there ever occasions where Ms. Page 250. Thomas Ryan - Direct Jenkins would call you for assistance? A. What do you mean by assistance, sir? Q. Well, did she ever call you to say she needed help from you? A. Yes, she did. Q. And did you, did you have the understanding that she trusted you? A. To some degree. Q. And did you make efforts to cultivate that trust in her? A. Not necessarily. Q. Well, were you nice to her? A. I tried to be nice to everybody, sir. Q. Did you give her money on occasion? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you ever buy her clothes? A. No, sir. Q. Did you ever attempt to get her lodging, such as an apartment? MS. FISK: May I ask what period of time we are referring to, Your Honor? BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. During the time that she was an informant for you? A. No, sir. Page 251. Thomas Ryan - Direct Q. Did you trust Pamela Jenkins? A. As I stated, to a certain degree. Q. Did you find that she was reliable? A. On occasion. Q. Were there occasions where you found that she was unreliable? A. Yes. Q. When did you determine that she was unreliable? A. When her addiction became severe. Q. And when was that? A. The late '80s. Q. Now, let me see. You understand that Pamela Jenkins provided information to Federal authorities against you and your partner Jack Baird, right? A. I don't know exactly what she supplied, sir. Q. You never came to learn that she had supplied information to Federal authorities against you and your partner Jack Baird? A. Yes, but I don't know what it was. Q. But you know that she did? A. I just stated yes. Q. Okay. And you understood that your partner Jack Baird had paid Pamela Jenkins to lie under oath: True? Page 252. Thomas Ryan - Direct MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. MR. WILLIAMS: That was encompassed by Ms. Jenkins' testimony this morning, Your Honor. MS. FISK: I believe Your Honor barred the testimony regarding actions by Jack Baird which caused Ms. Jenkins to do the things, properly limiting Ms. Jenkins to her contacts with Mr. Ryan. MR. WILLIAMS: Let me establish the foundation. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. Mr. Ryan, did you ever introduce Pamela Jenkins to your partner Jack Baird? A. No. Q. How did Jack Baird come to know Pamela Jenkins? A. From the street in the 39th District. Q. Was Pamela Jenkins also an informant for your partner Jack Baird? A. I don't have independent knowledge of that. Q. Did you know that your partner was giving money to Pamela Jenkins? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: He said he didn't know what the relationship was between Baird and Page 253. Thomas Ryan - Direct that. MS. FISK: And it is also irrelevant, Your Honor, and has nothing to do with Ms. Jenkins' testimony of this morning having to do with contacts which she claims she had with Mr. Ryan prior in fact to his becoming a police officer or her ever entering Gratz High School. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. Mr. Ryan, wouldn't it be fair to say that you would not give money to, to an individual to lie under oath if you didn't trust that person? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: I will sustain that objection. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. Well, when you have informants, you have to trust those informants; isn't that true? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. You are getting -- where are we going? MR. WILLIAMS: Well, I am establishing Ms. Jenkins' credibility here. THE COURT: How? MR. WILLIAMS: Well, you will see how in a minute. Page 254. Thomas Ryan - Direct THE COURT: Right. Well, get into it, then. Why are you going into all of this about trusting somebody? How could you ever trust anybody? Especially a prostitute. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. Well, you trusted -- THE COURT: And somebody taking dope. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. You trusted her enough to give her money: True? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: How do you get information without giving them money? BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. Isn't it true you gave her money because you trusted her? MS. FISK: Objection. THE COURT: All right. MR. WILLIAMS: Could we get an answer from the witness? THE COURT: She is objecting to the question. I will sustain the objection. I was just trying to tell you what the situation was, but okay. But you don't want it. Okay. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Page 255. Thomas Ryan - Direct Q. The information she gave you, for example in the Carter case, turned out to be reliable; isn't that true? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: Counselor, what are we doing with the Carter case? I am not concerned one bit about the Carter case. I have got this case here. And that's enough of a headache for me. I am not going to worry about what they did in Carter. I didn't sit on that case, I don't have the slightest idea what went on there. And I don't care what went on there. I am only interested in this case. Limit yourself to what he did in this case. If you can. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. You had used Pamela Jenkins as a source of information prior to the Carter case; isn't that true. A. That's correct. Q. Now, do you know a detective by the name of Richard Ryan? A. Yes. Q. And he is a detective with the Central district, Central Division, pardon me? A. I don't know. Page 256. Thomas Ryan - Direct Q. Well, how do you know Detective Ryan? A. I met him sometime in 1988 and he processed a burglary arrest that I made. Q. And that's the extent of your knowledge of Mr. Ryan, of Detective Ryan? A. That's it, sir. Q. So I take it that Detective Ryan has never come up in conversations between you and Pamela Jenkins; is that your testimony? A. As I just stated, my only contact was him processing a burglary arrest sometime around 1988. Q. All right, so I could take from that that you have never discussed a Detective Richard Ryan with Pamela Jenkins? A. That's correct. Q. So I take it that you have never heard Pamela Jenkins say anything negative about a Detective Richard Ryan; isn't that true? A. I've never heard Pamela Jenkins say anything positive or negative about the detective. Q. So you can't say that Pamela Jenkins harbors any animosity towards this Detective Ryan, right? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. MS. FISK: I believe the question has Page 257. Thomas Ryan - Direct been answered. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. Now, isn't it also true that in addition to receiving information from Pamela Jenkins, that you also had a sexual relationship with her? A. A brief one. Q. And when did that occur? A. In 1984. Q. That was the subject, your sexual relationship with Pamela Jenkins, in your dealings with the Federal authorities in connection with your arrest? A. Was it? Q. Yes. A. I don't know. Q. Isn't it a fact that when you were arrested you were debriefed by an FBI agent? A. Regarding? Q. Regarding your activities as a police officer. A. That's correct. Q. And that FBI agent is James Williamson, right? A. That's correct. Q. And there was a police investigator named James Dambach: D-A-M-B-A-C-H? A. That's correct. Q. And you recall being debriefed by them? Page 258. Thomas Ryan - Direct A. Yes. Q. And as part of the debriefing was your sexual relationship with Pamela Jenkins: True? A. That's correct. Q. And part of your debriefing by this FBI agent was her use as an informant: True? A. That's correct. Q. And in fact, part of your debriefing also involved the use of prostitutes as informants in general? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. Isn't that true? MS. FISK: That is irrelevant to this proceeding. THE COURT: Objection is sustained. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. Well, let's put it this way. Your use of Pamela Jenkins as an informant was not something unique within the Police Department: That's fair to say? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. Whether it is fair or not it is not relevant. THE COURT: You better get another question someplace, forget that one. Page 259. Thomas Ryan - Direct MR. WILLIAMS: Sustained, Your Honor? THE COURT: Yes. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. Now, isn't it also a fact that you told the Federal authorities -- specifically FBI Agent James Williamson and police investigator James Dambach -- that you had been having sex with and paying for information since she was 15 years old? Isn't that true? A. I don't recall. Q. You don't recall that, okay. You don't recall the details of what you told FBI Agent Williamson? A. That's correct. Q. But you might have told him, you just don't recall, that you had been having sex with Pamela Jenkins and paying for information since she was 15? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: I will sustain the objection. He said he doesn't recall it. That's enough. (Discussion was held off the record among defense Counsel.) BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. Now, isn't it a fact that Pamela Jenkins was 15 years old in 1981? Page 260. Thomas Ryan - Direct MS. FISK: Objection, Your Boner. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. To your knowledge. MS. FISK: Your Honor, I believe that everyone is capable of counting from September lst, 1965 and figuring out exactly each and every day since then how old Ms. Jenkins has been. MR. WILLIAMS: Okay. I think we can all agree. THE COURT: Rephrase your question. Get more specific if you want to bring something out. MR. WILLIAMS: I think we could all agree she was 15 in 1981. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. So is it a coincidence, officer, that under sworn testimony you indicate that you have known Ms. Jenkins since September of 1981, and then in a debriefing with FBI Agent Williamson you told him that you had began having sex with her and using her as an informant since she was 15? Is that a coincidence? MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor: There is no foundation for that question. Page 261. Thomas Ryan - Direct THE COURT: Sustained. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. Well, does it help your recollection as to what you told FBI Agent Williamson regarding use of her as an informant and having sex with her since she was 15, that you testified under oath that you had known her since 1981 when she was 15 (displaying)? Does that help your recollection? A. As my recollection is refreshed, I first met Pamela Jenkins on that truancy stop on June the l0th, 1982. Q. So you're saying that when you said you knew Pamela Jenkins essentially since September of 1981 under oath in Raymond Carter's trial, that you testified falsely? Is that what you are saying now? A. I don't recall that, sir. Q. Well, if that's what it says here in black and white, you would say that that testimony under oath is false (displaying)? MS. FISK: It could also be a mistake, Your Honor. I object to the form of that question. THE COURT: Sustained. Anybody could make a mistake, Counselor. You make mistakes too. Page 262. Thomas Ryan - Direct (Discussion was held off the record among defense Counsel.) BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. Now, leaving aside whether you were mistaken as to your testimony under oath in the Carter case about your relationship with Pamela Jenkins, is it possible that you were also mistaken when you told the FBI that you had been having a relationship with her since she was 15? THE COURT: I think we went through that. MS. FISK: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: I am getting tired of that. How many times are you going to bring that story up? MR. WILLIAMS: As many times as it takes to get an answer. MS. FISK: I believe it has been answered appropriately. THE COURT: Hey, look, it's almost five o'clock. If you think I am going to stay here until midnight you're crazy. I am not going to stay here until midnight. Now let's get moving. MR. WILLIAMS: Well, tomorrow is Page 263. Thomas Ryan - Direct another day. THE COURT: Yes, so is Monday. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. Now, is it your testimony that you have never heard of a prostitute named Lucky? MS. FISK: Your Honor, that's been asked and answered. I object to it being asked again. MR. WILLIAMS: I am just reorienting the witness. THE COURT: Don't reorient him. He knows. What question do you want to ask him? Let's be specific. What do you want to ask him? MR. WILLIAMS: Well, I want to ask him that question, Judge. THE COURT: Well, that question has already been answered. Ask whatever you want but let's get to it. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. Did you know of any other prostitutes who were friendly with Pamela Jenkins during the course of your relationship with her? A. No, not off the top of my mind. Q. There could be, you just don't recall? THE COURT: He said not off the top of Page 264. Thomas Ryan - Direct his mind. Isn't that enough for you? Come on. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. Now, back in December of 1981, early 1981, did you come to learn of the shooting death of Officer Faulkner? A. Yes. Q. How did you come to learn of that? A. The news media. Q. And did you then attempt to gather information on your own to assist in the investigation? A. Counselor, at the time of Officer Faulkner's murder, I was in the Police Academy. Q. No, I understand that, but the question is did you attempt to gather information in connection with that murder? A. No, sir. Q. Well, it certainly wouldn't hurt your career if you turned up information concerning that crime, right? MS. FISK: And, Your Honor, if he found the aliens that landed in Arizona 50 years ago that would probably make him a media star too, but he has answered the question. THE COURT: Yes. Come on, Counselor, stop playing around with this. Page 265. Thomas Ryan - Direct MR. WILLIAMS: I am going into questions that are directly relevant here. THE COURT: He told you he was in the Academy then. What authority did he have to do anything? He wasn't an officer then yet. MS. FISK: He also answered that he did not. Whether he should have or could have is not the issue. He did not, and that was answered by the witness. BY MR. WILLIAMS: Q. Are you denying, sir, that you introduced Pamela Jenkins to Detective Richard Ryan? MS. FISK: I would note again, Your Honor, my objection. This is direct examination. That is an improper question on direct examination. THE COURT: He is supposed to be your witness. You called him as a witness. What, has he suddenly become somebody else's witness? MR. WILLIAMS: No, it is just that I seem to be blocked at every juncture by the Court asking questions of my witness. THE COURT: Counselor, take it up with the Supreme Court. Now, come on, I am asking you for the last time. Or we will continue this Page 266. Thomas Ryan - Direct until Monday, I don't care. Do you want to come back in Monday? MR. WILLIAMS: I will take whatever time I need to get at the truth, Your Honor. THE COURT: All right, why don't we come back Monday, then. All right. You want to come back Monday? It is almost a quarter of 5:00. MR. WILLIAMS: We will do whatever it takes to get at the truth, Your Honor. THE COURT: Fine. Let's come back Monday. Monday morning back at this Court. MR. WEINGLASS: What about tomorrow? MS. WOLKENSTEIN: What about tomorrow? THE COURT: Tomorrow I have the day off, okay. I am taking a day off. I need it after this. THE COURT OFFICER: This Court now stands adjourned until Monday morning. THE COURT: Monday. MS. WOLKENSTEIN: Mr. Jamal needs to be housed in this area. THE COURT: Take it up with the Sheriff, he knows where to take him. MS. FISK: Thank you, Your Honor. Page 267. THE COURT OFFICER: This Court now stands adjourned until Monday morning, 10:00 a.m. at the call of the Crier. - - - - - (The hearing was adjourned at 4:45 p.m.) - - - - - Page 268. I hereby certify that the proceedings and evidence are contained fully and accurately in the notes taken by me on the trial of the above cause, and that this copy is a correct transcript of the same. Official Stenographer Date The foregoing record of the proceedings upon the trial of the above cause is hereby approved and directed to be filed. Judge | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||