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![]() Section XI. AKC Seminar Reports (NOTE: The following are questions that were asked at the very first AKC Rally Seminar in November, 2002. Although things may change in the future, this is an excellent start and will answer many of the questions most commonly asked by Rally.) The questions listed below were asked of AKC Rep Roger Ayres at the Orlando Dog Training Club Rally Seminar on November 10, 2003. AKC Rep Ron Roberts also attended with Roger, but Roger was our "Clinician." I'm paraphrasing or writing from notes taken at the Seminar, so don't hold me precisely to the information presented. Also, this was the FIRST EVER Rally Seminar, and it's possible that some of the information will change as the Seminars continue to be presented, so please keep that in mind. The only other Seminar scheduled for this year is Pittsburgh, PA, and that's next weekend. Don't miss it if you live anywhere close! (Hope it was great!) We had 68 people scheduled to attend, one person was ill and could not come. Of the 67 that attended, 5 were Obedience Judges, 6 were Non Regular Judges that currently Judge Rally, and many were potential Judges who wanted credit for attending the seminar. There were also a number of attendees who had no Rally experience, but a lot of interest in the sport. Question: When will Rally be a titling event? Answer: Unknown. Question: What's the status on the Judges Test, and when can we apply? Which Judges, if any, will be "Grandfathered in" to Judge Rally? Answer: Obedience Judges should be Grandfathered In, but they would have to attend an AKC Rally Seminar. Those Judging Rally as Non Regular Judges would have to take an "Open Book" test, telephone interview, and attend an AKC Rally Seminar. Anyone wishing to apply to Judge Rally once it's a titling event must have attained at least a CDX in Obedience, and follow the procedures listed for Rally Judges to apply. We HOPE that Rally Judges will also be CGC evaluators that will encourage CGC participants into Rally, but at this time we don't know if it will be required to be a CGC evaluator. Question: Will Clubs have to hold Matches to offer Rally once it becomes a titling event? Answer: No. Matches are designed to prove that the Club has the ability to perform all the necessary tasks to put on a trial. If they can present an Obedience trial they should be able to do Rally. Question: Can Rally be offered even if the Obedience Entries are limited? Answer: Yes. The Obedience regulations specify the numbers for limiting the Obedience entry. Rally would not have to be limited, but it could be if the club chose to do so. Roger: It's important to use the correct terminology for the sport. DISqualification would mean the dog is blind, deaf, changed in appearance by artificial means, or attacks or attempts to attack a person in the ring. NON qualified would be for not meeting the minimum requirements for the class, such as losing more than 30 points, or any of the other errors listed under the NQ column on the score sheet. It is the Judge's job to qualify the dogs that should qualify, non qualify the dogs that do not meet the standards for a qualifying performance, and to place the top 4 dogs in order of their performance. Question: Definition of heel position in Rally: Answer: Heel work in Rally is not like Obedience. It's more of an indication of team work between the dog and handler than precision. Question: Corrections/Touching the dog -- is addressed in the Judges Guidelines as deserving a "substantial" deduction. Is Substantial in Rally 3 points, 10 points, or NQ? Answer: Could range from 3 points to 10 points to NQ, depending on the circumstances. Question: Slow to Respond versus Multiple commands -- multiple commands are allowed, so when does the response to the commands become "slow"? (We had some good examples of this during run throughs. It was clear when there was NO response to the command. It's not the multiple commands, but seeing the dog "mentally checked out" when they don't respond to the handler.) Question: Handler sends dog over Jump, dog is running but handler is moving at heeling speed. Handler can't keep up and dog runs out in front, handler calls dog back to heel position (we see this a lot). Dog has to turn around to go back to handler, then turn again to assume heel position. Answer: The Handler should be RUNNING BY the Jump, and should be able to get the dog back under control. A dog that runs out in front after the jump and has to be called back should get a deduction for Out of Position (1 point) or Lack of Control (3 points), depending on the circumstances. Question: Sniffing is not address in the errors. If the dog "tracks" half way around the ring or more, I feel an error is called for -- maybe a one time hit for 3 points, but it's not listed in the deductions. Answer: Agreed, it's not appropriate behavior and shows "lack of teamwork." The Rally Judges Guidelines under "Rally Regulations" state that: "The Rally Regulations are the basic guide to judging Rally, but these regulations do not contain explicit directions for every possible situation, only listing the more common and serious faults ... While Rally is not judged with the same precision as Obedience, Rally judges must make competent decisions based on a mental picture of a qualifying performance within the framework of the regulations.") Question: Grabbing/carrying the leash -- some dogs just like having something in their mouth to carry. If the dog is TUGGING, it probably should be Lack of Control, or at least a tight leash. (The dog that illustrated this point was a Boxer. I have seen him "carry" his leash all the way through a Rally course and place in the class -- but then he was just carrying it and not playing with it. During the run through he constantly pulled and tugged on the leash, and the panel of Judges were in agreement that he would have been NQed on EITHER Consistently Tight Lead, OR Dog Unmanageable.) Question: Leash Tangle -- dog steps over the loop in the loose leash, does the handler get hit points for pulling/getting it loose? Answer: No deduction -- keep it fun, we don't want to "kill" the handler. Question: When is a station missed? If a station is missed/passed, and BEFORE the handler begins the NEXT station, could they go back and "pick up" the one they missed? Answer: Yes. Once they begin the next station, the one they passed is "missed." Roger was of the opinion that no deduction should be applied, as they would lose time. Many of the Seminar Attendees would have gone with a 3 point deduction as a retry for passing the station and having to go back, as it's not the ideal of the performance Rally is supposed to promote. Question: Handler Errors -- There is nothing in the rules to allow for handler errors, so at this time, anyone who moves their feet while getting the dog to finish by taking a step back is hit 10 points for incorrect performance. Is that appropriate? Answer: Agreed, Handler Error should be addressed. It probably should be something like a 3 point deduction, rather than a 10 point deduction for incorrect performance. We don't want to "kill" the handlers. Question: WHERE, in relation to the sign does the exercise have to be performed -- if the handler goes past the sign but still performs the exercise is it points, or missed station, or what? Answer: Ideally, the exercise should be performed in front and to the left of the sign as indicated in the rules, but there should not be a deduction for passing the sign and performing the exercise. We don't want to "kill" the handlers, let's keep it fun. Question: What if a handler does a 360 AROUND the sign? Answer: That would be Incorrect Performance. Question: Many of us will be using "nested courses." I feel the "B" classes, while still Judged the same, should be allowed to incorporate more challenging combinations of exercises. Is it okay to design courses based on the level of the handler? Answer: Absolutely. There is no reason that courses could not be designed for the level of experience of the Exhibitor. Question: The Jump Heights need to be added to the Score Sheet, AND to the entry form, and Rally should have it's OWN entry form. Should the question of Jump Height be on the entry form as "jump height" or as "height of dog" and let the Trial Sec. figure it out? Many new handlers will not necessarily know the jump heights. Answer: At this time, we're leaning toward adding "height of the dog" to the entry form and having a space for Rally entries, or writing it in. Question: Will Judges be expected to provide a different course each time they Judge, or could they have, say, 10 courses they like and rotate those? Answer: We would LIKE Judges to design new courses regularly. AKC will provide, say, 10 sample courses for each level to new Judges to get them started, but they are NOT expected to use those courses each time they Judge Rally. Part of the attraction of Rally is the variety of courses. Judges MAY, if they choose, have 10 or 12 courses at each level that they like and rotate them, but even then we hope they will change a few things periodically to "freshen up" the course. Question: Some of us are designing courses for small spaces with the same Jump used twice in Excellent (jump, about turn, jump again). Is this allowed? I also have courses where two exercises share one cone -- like a spiral and straight figure 8 set on a 90 degree angle to each other, and the last cone is used for both. Any problem with that? Answer: No problem at all! Nested courses are a great idea, and there is no problem with using the same jump twice to save space or "sharing cones," as long as the course is clear enough not to confuse the exhibitors. Question: Can we give out Score Sheets? Answer: Yes. And you can design your own score sheets based on what's most comfortable for you. As in Obedience, the AKC work/score sheets are provided as a sample for convenience. You are not required to use them. Question: Time per class -- The rules suggest scheduling no more than 30 dogs per hour. In Advanced it runs more like 25 dogs per hour, and Excellent runs more like 20 dogs per hour. The courses are longer and the stationary exercises can increase, and so does the time. Should the rules be amended to reflect that? (We timed the run throughs at the Seminar, and it was looking more like 30 dogs per hour in Novice, and 25 dogs per hour in both Advanced and Excellent -- and in fact, Excellent was often faster than Advanced. Possibly this was due to the fact that most of the dogs running the course were much more experienced dogs, and many of them had advanced Obedience titles.) Question: Will "move ups" be allowed? What about "day of event entries?" Answer: No. And No. Question: How to perform the Honor -- leash length, facing dog or next to dog? (There was MUCH discussion on this, and the opinions were split about even for each method. This was one of the "hot topics" of the seminar. Sherri Cooper had a great suggestion which I hope will find favor -- she suggested that, since the Judge decides where the Honor will be performed, and whether it's a sit or down, why not let the JUDGE decide if the handler stands next to the dog or out front? That suggestion satisfied a number of people, but MANY staunchly held with their views on how the exercise should be performed. I would be satisfied to let the Judge decide, personally.) Question: AKC signs pretty set? Sign number 35 to change? (There was much discussion on that sign, and it was clear that it NEEDS to change -- as most of the folks who did a run through of the course got it wrong, even after it was demonstrated. It needs to read "Halt, PIVOT Right, 1 Step, Call to Heel, Halt." It was particularly confusing in that the Description reads "With the dog waiting in heel position, the handler PIVOTS to the Right and takes one step in that direction, then the handler calls the dog to sit in heel position." The Sign only reads "Halt, TURN Right, one step, call to heel." This sign still needs some work. The description will likely be changed as well for consistency. ALSO, we noticed that signs number 32 and 33 call for a halt and then an About Turn or About "U" Turn on the sign, but the description calls for "With the dog sitting in heel position, the handler PIVOTS 180 degrees in place to the right and immediately moves forward without again halting." One or the other needs to be amended so that the two match, and that will most likely be the descriptions.) Question: Obstacle Knocked Over -- just cones/pylons, or signs too? Answer: Cones/pylons only, not signs. Question: Incomplete, versus Incorrect Performance: Some Judges, and WWKC, are scoring Incomplete (NQ) for things such as a "no sit" on one exercise. Answer: Again, let's not "kill" the exhibitor. Rally is supposed to be fun. Even in Obedience, a dog that did not sit a single time during the heeling pattern could still qualify. Why would we want to NQ a dog that's working with the handler, but that has some minor errors? Incomplete performance/Minimum Requirements Not Met (there used to be a slash between those two, indicating that they were the same type of error) was intended to be used as an overview of the whole performance/course -- NOT each exercise. Any component of the exercise that is not performed would make the exercise Incorrectly Performed for 10 points, not an NQ.Clapping and patting the leg in the Excellent class needs to be addressed as well -- that's also a handler error, and there's no indication of what deduction would be appropriate.) Exercises: Question: On the Moving Side Step Right, does the dog have to "move sideways" WITH the handler, or is a gradual shift back to heel position prior to the next station acceptable? Answer: As an indication of team work, the dog should notice the handler's new position and move toward the handler to continue heeling. We're making this way to complicated, folks. Question: On the Halt, Moving Side Step, Halt (and some other exercises), if someone is in a wheelchair and the dog is supposed to "move with" the handler, they could not possibly perform this. How do we handle this as Judges? Answer: The exercises would be modified to accommodate the handler, but the components of the exercise still have to be performed. Question: On the Off Set Figure 8, if someone performs the exercise correctly until they are exiting the station, but then exits on the wrong side of the food bowl, based on the written description and illustration in the rules, is that Incorrect Performance? Also, the illustration with the description needs to have a "P" for pylon and indicate how far apart to place the posts and distractions. The description says we may enter either side, but only one illustration is shown. Answer: Again, I think we're getting too picky here with scoring. What difference does it make which side of the distraction the handler passes as they leave the station? In fact, by passing the distraction on the other side as they leave the station, they actually make it HARDER for the dog because that way the DOG passes next to the bowl instead of the handler. However, if the Judge specifies that the handler is to exit a certain way and NQ's a handler for it, AKC would support the Judge's decision. Question: The Off Set Figure 8 does not specify distances for the cones and distractions. Answer: It should be similar to the Obedience exercise, with the cones about 8 feet or so apart, and the bowls about 5 or 6 feet apart. Question: 360 and 270 turns: Some Judges are deducting points if the handler does not practically SPIN in place on the circle. I know it says "tight circle," but it was not intended to be a spin in place, in my opinion. How big a circle should it be to lose points? (Roger demonstrated the circles, and as tight as we want should be fine, but ideally the circle should be "about" 3 to 5 feet in diameter. He indicated a circle about 8 to 10 feet in diameter as bigger than it should be performed.) Question: Call Front, Finish ______: if the dog tries to finish the wrong way, I expect the handler to re-try the exercise, not just wrestle the dog around to the right spot for the finish. Is that incorrect performance or points? Answer: Agreed. If the dog tries to finish in the wrong direction, the handler should start the exercise over for a "re-try" or it would be incorrect performance. Question: On About Turn, should the handler be turning in place so they continue on the same line as leading up to the turn? Answer: Too picky. Look at the team work and not so much at the detail. Question: Honor Exercise: We need a better description. Anyone new to Companion Events will not know what it is or how to perform it. How long a leash? When does it start? Does the handler face the dog or stand next to it? What happens if the dog breaks or shifts, moves, creeps, handler moves, etc.? Answer: As in Obedience, if the dog changes position, creeps or moves past the "imaginary circle" the Judge draws around the dog, the dog would NQ. There probably does need to be a clearer description of how to perform the exercise. Question: Is the "Honor" exercise in Excellent counted as one of the Stationary exercises? Answer: At this time it is being counted as a separate exercise and NOT one of the Stationary exercises during the course run. So the answer would be no. Question: Sign 26, Call Front, 1, 2, 3 Steps backward: There is still no description given as to how to get back on course from having the dog in front. Answer: That still needs to be fixed in the description. It was intended to read something like "the dog then resumes heel position as the handler continues forward to the next station." Question: Will Non Regular Classes be allowed in Rally. Answer: Yes. Question: Could the Judges NOT use a score sheet, and just hold up fingers to record faults as in Agility? (There was much discussion among the Judges on this issue. While Judges are not required to use a score sheet, or they can use their own score sheet, the scoring is different than Agility. Also, it would probably be distracting for the handler to "see" their points drain away, and it might be embarrassing to have it pointed out to the spectators in that way. Also, the Judge is not allowed to HELP the Exhibitor, but an indication of "10 points" would basically TELL the exhibitor he just missed a station or performed it incorrectly, giving them an unfair advantage.) Also, Roger announced that another title for Rally has been proposed. (I know this was Roger's idea, to a great extent.) Much like the UDX, a dog that has gotten an RX title and continues to compete in both Advanced AND Excellent at the same trial, and that qualifies in BOTH classes at the same trail, and does that TEN TIMES, would get the title (either) RAX -- for Rally Advanced Excellent, or RDX -- for Rally Dog Excellent. Most of us preferred RDX, but I love that there will be a reason to continue to show in Rally. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I went to an AKC obedience seminar this past weekend put on by the Portland Dog Obedience Club (PDOC). Pat Krause wasnšt there but two guys from AKC gave the seminar one was a rep from upstate NY (Rochester area, I think) and the other works for Pat. I learned a lot about handling and where you can loose points. We did Rally at the end of the second day and here are some notes you might find interesting: Heeling between exercises will not be judged except if the leash is excessively tight. If you miss a station or perform it incorrectly, and realize it several stations later, you can go back for a retry (with points off but not as many as a NQ for missed station or incorrectly performed station). But then you should jump right ahead to where you were, otherwise, itšs 3 points off for each station in between that you redo. After reading what the "other" AKC reps are saying in Portland, I felt it was time to finally review "our" (Colorado) Rally only seminar from Feb. Q: If a person runs the entire course in Rally, how is it scored? Roger's answer: 10 Pt deduct for "incorrect" course. Q: Is Rally heeling, between signs, judged? Roger: Yes, for tight lead, severe lagging or forging, impeding handlers' forward progress, not working as a team, wide, etc. Heeling in Rally is very loosely scored as compared to Obedience, but you still must appear to work as a team. Q: How is Moving Down to be performed and judged? Roger had several handlers try the moving down. We got several different pictures of the performance as to what is considered to be "correct". It's still very confusing and hopefully we made our point about it being too difficult/vague for Novice A handlers and very difficult to judge in Novice. Q: What constitutes a retry? Roger: If you miss a station and GO back BEFORE attempting the next station, it's a retry for -3 pts. If, on this retry, the station is done incorrectly, It's an additional -10pts for that station. If it's done correctly, It's just whatever deducts are made, added to the -3 for the initial retry. Other retry situations: Dog gets up from Halt, Down, Walk around, before the exercise is completed. Handler may start again for a retry of -3, plus any other errors before completing the station. Q: When is a station considered to be missed? Roger: Once a team passes a station and BEGINS the next station, it is a missed station for -30 or NQ (later on) ![]() ![]() ![]() Copyright 2003 by Carawind Web Work. 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