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 Section III. Judging Can someone tell me where the judge should be positioned while judging rally? Thanks. The Judges Guides state: Being in the right position to observe a dog's performance is essential. There is no perfect position for judging Rally, but this does not mean that some positions are not better than others. All dogs shall be viewed throughout the exercises from the same relative position. Handlers should expect and train for a reasonable amount of movement by the judge while the dog is working. Judges must not move quickly toward a dog while it is moving, stand closely behind a dog, or follow a heeling dog too closely. I could swear I saw something a long time ago something about the judge should find a place to get a good overall view of the performance without interfering with it. Darned if I can find it now. But the above is more definitive, anyway. What is Out of Control? To my mind, "lack of control" would be a dog that leaves the handler's general area and the handler has difficulty getting them back, whereas "dog unmanageable" would be that the handler CAN'T get them back. I'm sure we have some AKC Judges on the list who can better express the differences. Can you touch the dog? I think I am reading you are not allowed to touch a dog at any time in Obedience - actually CH 2 section 22 states you may praise and pet the dog after and between exercises. Seems to me Rally would allow the same, with a lot more praising! You just can't physically assist the dog with an exercise.. Except that in Rally, there is no "between exercises". The entire course is a single exercise, since the heeling between signs is judged. Judging begins when you cross the start line after the judge's ok and ends when you cross the finish. How soon does the handler start heeling after a Halt? I just judged my first Rally classes at our local obedience trials and I did have to NQ several people who did not wait for their dogs to complete the posture...dogs not all the way into the sit or the down before the owner gave the OK to move on. . I think it's going to be important to cover things in the "Judges Talk" about what loses points, including the difference between a retry and an incorrectly perfumed station. And also that a tight lead is scoreable, as is interfering with handler's forward motion, or slow response, such as when the dog finally sits after the 6th or 7th command. One of the participants was also not clear that the time was secondary to the score. At a recent trial, the only thing I wondered about is that she told us we could run from the last station to the finish, because "it doesn't say you can't" but wouldn't that be considered a fast? I did run, and ended up getting 98 and second place with my fast dog and a 96 with my slower dog. I have no idea where I lost the points, except that "touching handler" was marked on both score sheets. How many of you have seen people try to do the 360 or 270 by circling the sign itself? If someone performed the station that way in competition, would you deduct for it? Yes, I've seen it. Yes, I deducted for it (one or two points depending on how big the circle ended up being) ;o). I would think you'd have to deduct. Making the circle large enough to encompass the sign would certainly be more than the "small circle" allowed in the descriptions. I guess I wouldn't take off points - if they did a SMALL circle around the sign. I find this an interesting topic. The AKC states (and I am assuming here that we are talking AKC rules and regs.): 6. Location of the performance in relation to the exercise signs. Exercises are performed near the signs, either directly in front of them, or in front and to the left of the signs. Should the sign be circled, I believe it is an 'incorrectly performed station' deduction 10 points. It was mentioned above that she deducted 1 or 2 points for this infraction. What were they deducted for? Out of position is the only thing I can see that would be appropriate. And only 1 point deduction is allotted for that. Guess we're right back to 'standardized judging' lol. Not being picky here just would like more input. If the team circles the sign on the 360 or 270, that is an Incorrectly Performed Station--10 points. This is per Roger Ayers at a seminar. I am unsure how a judge could deduct 2 points for anything as the AKC proposes very specific deductions and reasons for them. They are in 1, 3, and 10 point increments. Another comment and question. I can see a judge not helping once AKC titles these events, for now I think it's a lot of help. But what if a handler's sister, friend, mother is on the outside of the ring coaching? I think this would cause a big question and predicament for a judge. Say I perform a station incorrectly and my friend says "NO, go back" do I simply get a 3 point deduction for 'repeat of a station' or are my well intentioned friend and I excused Good points! I was thinking of the AKC rules "near the sign" - forgot about the "in front" or "left of" part. I believe the other big question is answered by the AKC already - it is against the rules to "double handle" and this applies to ALL AKC events. You also can not stand outside the ring and do things on purpose that would cause a PROBLEM for a dog in the ring, in order to keep it from performing at its best, in the hopes you could have first place instead. The rule applies both ways - No help & No hurt! It would be an excusal and maybe even a show committee issue (I would have to review the exact rules....but it's a big NO NO!) Well, technically it should be as tight a turn as possible. I don't know that I would take off 10 points for an incorrectly performed station, but I do think I'd take off a couple because it would be too big a circle. Point increments is the key phrase here. imho If a dog does a really crooked sit that would be a 2 pt deduction in traditional obedience, it would be a 2 pt deduction in Rally. I interpret this to mean it's not *1 point and only 1 point* but I could be wrong. Anyone else feel this way? I would really like to know. If in a judge's opinion it is too big a circle, isn't the station incorrectly performed? Hence a 10 point deduction. Can't see where the AKC provides for a couple points for too big a circle? 'Out of position' maybe? But the Rally Advisory Committee has recommended that it read only "near the sign". Then I would think circling the sign would be ok unless as stated above, the judge deems the circle too big. In relation to where the exercise is performed: The 270 should be performed directly in front of the sign, since signs that indicate a change of direction should be directly in the handler's path. In spite of the wording, it is much smoother and more convenient to perform the Moving Side Step Right AFTER the sign, and I don't deduct for that. Also consider that there is NO DEDUCTION listed under penalties for where the exercise is performed, unless you want to call circling the sign "out of position" which would be one point or "substantially out of position" which would be an NQ or "incorrect performance" which would be 10 points. Exercises such as Halt, 1, 2, 3 Steps Forward may BEGIN before the sign, but completion of the exercise may end up being almost at the NEXT sign. I really think this is going to be one of those things that need clarification LATER, once we're actually doing Rally as titling and see how performance location affects the course. It may not be a big deal at all, or it may be a bigger deal than we think. I expect some of you on this list will be on the NEXT Rally Advisory Committee, and I just want us all to 'exercise our minds' on some of these issues, in case they need attention later. Also, keeping in mind that the idea of the sport is to encourage NEW exhibitors into competition, often from Obedience class or CGC, how severe do we want to be on points like this? Just a few things to think about, for future reference. Just how much verbal, signals and body English are allowed? Unlimited communication from the handler to the dog is to be encouraged and not penalized. Unless otherwise specified in these Regulations, handlers are permitted to talk, praise, encourage, clap their hands, pat their legs, or use any verbal means of encouragement. Handlers may not touch their dog or make physical corrections. Loud or harsh commands or intimidating signals will be penalized. I agree - no penalty for body language. I recently attended an AKC judging seminar at which they covered Rally "rules". The general impression was: You can do cartwheels, promise steak for dinner, clap, cheer, multiple commands. No touching dog and no harsh or loud commands. You may give a verbal "correction" if it's informative, not punishing: such as "oh, oh." "hey, let's sit, down, whatever" or even a cheerful "get over here". Their definition of slow to respond was count to three and then deduct. I don't think it mattered if the handler said "sit, sit, sit, sit," as long the dog sat within three seconds of the first command. It's a whole new style of competition - and I LOVE it! In the Sit-Down-Sit – when most dogs go from the sit to the down, they end up out of heel position because their shoulders go forward. THEN, when they go back up to the sit, most scooch their back feet forward to sit, thus putting them EVEN MORE out of heel position. Would this be faulted? OR – does everyone have to teach their dogs to down and sit by ONLY moving their back legs so as to not propel them forward? OR – can the handler inch forward to accommodate the movement? If I were Judging this and the dog ended up half a body length out of position, moving forward on both portions of the exercise, there would probably be a one point deduction. Remember that in Rally you can talk, encourage, use hand signals, pat your leg, etc., so any dog getting that much help should be able to stay fairly close to heel position. I teach my dogs to push back into a sit from a down. They may end up slightly ahead of me when they drop, but should come back to the same position when they resume the sit. Again, half point errors are not scored, so any infraction would have to be worthy of a one point deduction. Do NOT move forward to adjust to the dog, as that would be a handler error and absolutely should be scored as you would be adjusting to the dog. What happens if a dog back-jumps one of the jumps? I really don't see that happening since it's a run-by to send the dog over. As a matter of fact, I've NEVER seen it happen. IMHO, I would score it as an incorrectly performed station, so if you did it over, it should be a "re-try" for 3 points. Without doing it again to get it right would be the 10 points for incorrectly performed or missed station. Again, that's just my opinion, but I can't see this happening with all the "help" you can give the dog, both verbally and physically. According to the AKC score sheet, an incorrectly performed station is a 10 point deduction. Back-jumping I would consider incorrectly performed rather than an incomplete performance, which would be an NQ. If a dog sits crooked for a SPLIT SECOND, then gets up to fix itself, is it still a crooked sit? In the Obedience ring, if my dog comes to a full sit crooked, and then fixes it, it's still a crooked sit. If it's a continuous motion into the sit while adjusting, it was never a sit, so it was never crooked. But in RALLY, a slightly crooked sit would not be scored either way, since half point errors are ignored. If the crooked sit is only for a *split second* then I wouldn't fault it. But I'm not a judge. It might only be a half point deduction in regular obedience so it wouldn't count in Rally. What is the fault ruling if a handler does an exercise with the sign on their left? I would not penalize based on where the sign is located. The rules say "All signs will be placed to the right of the handler's path except for a change in direction, which will be directly in front of the handler to aid in that path change." No where in AKC rules does it mention that the exercise must be performed in a particular area. However, ending up on the wrong side of a sign could make it difficult to find the NEXT sign and could cost time that might affect a placement. Placement of the signs to the handler's right was intended to keep the information out of the way of the handler and DOG performing the exercise. That way no one gets tangled up in the signs -- unless you're as graceful as ME. . I should think that would qualify as *being out of position* and would be a one point deduction. Of course, the *being out of position* needs to apply to handler as well as dog. The reason I'm saying it would be a deduction is that the regs state that the *signs will be placed to the right of the handler's path except for.......* It then goes on to say that *exercises are performed....... in front and to the left of the signs*. Again, I'm not a judge so the judges will need to ring in on this one Is Barking ever faulted? Excessive Barking? (not that I could tell, but it seems out of the ‘control’ of obedience) Excessive barking, as already mentioned, would be a 3 point deduction per occurrence. So, if we do a fast and the dog barks several times -- 3 points. If we then do a moving side step right and the dog again barks several times -- another 3 points. What constitutes excessive barking is left up to the Judge to decide. However, if the intention is for people to continue on to regular Obedience, barking should be curbed as it is a one point deduction PER BARK in regular Obedience, and since Rally be only be held in conjunction with Obedience, if there are a LOT of barking dogs, the Obedience Exhibitors will HATE Rally, and the Clubs will choose not to offer the class. As I mentioned previously, if you have ever been to a Flyball Tournament -- where the Judge and Stewards MUST wear protective ear plugs, you would understand the value of preventing those barks early! I don't know how they'll treat it in Rally but I think that barking should be strongly discouraged no matter which form of obedience is chosen. Kandee barks one time each time she goes out to get the dumbbell. That's not uncommon and I don't recall ever losing points for it. If we did, I wouldn't have cared - just so we qualified. I would not fault it - I am not an official judge, but am hoping to get there soon! #4 - I would not score either - and that is direct from the AKC judge's seminar I attended in January! #5 - excessive barking may get scored, and it's the judge's call when "excessive" kicks in! My Stuart likes to bark when we compete in obedience. He gets himself all revved up and barks away. We usually lose 2-5 points, but I don't care in the least. He's a Scottie. :-) Occasionally he does get very carried away and out of control, but only if he's confused or extremely hyped. He does bark during some exercises (anything where he's sent out, during the "fast" in heeling, etc.). So, my question is this....can he barks between stations without us losing points, or will we be marked off for barking throughout the entire course? 3 Point Deduction for each occurrence - Repeat of a station, pylon/post knocked over only on figure 8, spiral and serpentine, lack of control, loud or intimidating command or signal, excessive barking. Barking is listed under a 3 point penalty, and is left to the JUDGE'S opinion as to what is "excessive." If the intention is for people to progress on to Obedience from Rally, the rules should be fairly consistent -- it is, after all, still Obedience. Having attended Flyball Tournaments where the Judge and Stewards had to wear EAR PLUGS for protection from the non-stop barking, I would hate to see Rally become like this. It could very easily happen, as we encourage the dogs quickly through the course, and constantly barking dogs would insure that Obedience Trials would STOP offering Rally classes at all. In Rally, technically, there is no "between stations", The whole performance is scored. As to the barking, I can't imagine "barking" being points off. The original concept of rally is to for the handler and dog to show interaction and enthusiasm working as a team. Excessive uncontrolled barking yes. Little barks of enthusiastic workers should not be penalized. I would suggest teaching a quiet command with positive reinforcement and build it up to using on the behaviors where he is "hyped up". I respectfully disagree with you on the barking. Who's to say what's enthusiastic and what's uncontrolled? Try going to a Flyball Tournament some time, and bring ear plugs. If barking is allowed, no one will train their dog NOT to bark. If Rally dogs bark, Clubs will not OFFER Rally, since it is to be in conjunction with Obedience trials. Moreover, if Rally is to be a transition to regular Obedience, dogs that bark in Rally will NQ when they get to Obedience, no matter WHY they're barking. At this time, excessive barking is a 3 point deduction per occurrence, and it's left up to the Judge to decide what's excessive. That kind of deduction would effectively knock anyone out of any possibility for placements. My opinion is "Train, don't complain." It would be the Judge's call as to what is "excessive," and I'm happy to leave that as an issue the Judge can decide. Traditional Obedience is very quiet, and I'm sure the regular competitors would not appreciate a sport in the next ring which is loud with a lot of barking. Since Rally is to be offered ONLY with all regular Obedience classes, this must be considered. For my own choice (and I have a Cavalier -- a breed noted for barking, but mine does NOT) a single bark of enthusiasm occasionally during the course would be acceptable, but multiple barks at a particular station would get a deduction. Again, it goes to the "theoretical perfect performance" minus half points. A perfect performance to me is a dog that is happy and animated, performs the exercise well within the parameters of a half point in any direction, with the dog and handler working together smoothly as a team. The half points which are not scored give a lot of room for imperfection, which is fine since that's not what Rally is all about. Barking is not a part of my "perfect picture" of Rally, but again, since it is up to the Judge to decide (and some Judges may not consider barking excessive unless the dog barks through the whole course) someone with a dog that barks can just choose not to enter under a Judge that considers a few barks in a row excessive. Keep in mind that a couple of 3 point deductions would not affect the dog's ability to earn a title -- just win the class. We don't want Judges that go nuts with deductions for dogs that don't maintain "perfect heel position". If a handler is between exercises tugging on the leash, or the dog is tripping the handler, I'd still find a deduction there. It's just that reference to perfect heel position between exercises does not appear in the rules. That does not mean that dogs are no longer required to heel! The team of dog and handler move continuously with the dog at the handler's left side. They perform the exercises indicated by a numbered sign at each station. After the judge's "Forward" order, the team is on its own to complete the entire sequence correctly. Unlimited communication from the handler to the dog is to be encouraged and not penalized. In Rally, it should be MUCH more relaxed. Those half points for 2 inches off a straight sit should not come into play. However, a dog who is continually out at the end of a 6 foot lead, pulling, etc, should get a point off for being *really* out of position. I still like the idea of the "safety circle", and as long as a dog is within a reasonable distance of their handler, under control, and moving with the handler, they should be docked nothing. From what I've been reading, no one wants a really out-of-control dog to be allowed to get away with it without some kind of deduction. But, neither do they want a dog who may be working a foot or so away, but with the handler, to be penalized. My dog decided to lie down and roll on his back in the grass briefly on course, he did get up when I told him to and we completed the exercise, but how would you judges judge that, points off, NQ? In my opinion, if a dog did that in Rally, and it was short and the handler got them back up and working relatively quickly, I wouldn't score it. If it lasted a little longer, but the handler got the dog up, I'd take a point or more, depending on how long it lasted. If the handler couldn't get the dog back up and working, it would be an NQ. Rolling in the grass would just be points off, in between stations. If it happened at a station, I would mark it as a retry of the required exercise with a 3 pt deduction, providing you got the dog up & did the station. :-) There's a 3 point deduction for *lack of control*. For *dog unmanageable* it's an NQ. At what point would you consider a lack of control to be unmanageable and cause an NQ? I'm judging at a Rent-A-Ring this Saturday and, while I seriously doubt if either of these will be a problem, it's something that I'd like to know. I have a pretty good idea, but would like to hear from others on this. I also realized that I didn't have the deductions memorized so now I have to cram. Well-ll-ll... if you'd ever seen my Schroeder in the obedience ring, you'd know the “Unmanageable"... He goes walk-about... ON lead... and off. I would think that the "unmanageable" would actually be a dog that is acting out, lunging... I would consider "unmanageable" to be a dog that cannot be brought back under verbal control, whether it is jumping, running off, barking, lunging, walking off, etc. Terminally out of control! In my opinion, the 3-point deduction for lack of control is taken for a brief lapse in, or momentary breakdown of, the "teamwork" between dog & handler. The unmanageable non-qualifying penalty would be assessed when no teamwork is evident between the dog & handler. For example, a dog that "goes into business for himself" and ignores repeated attempts by the handler to re-establish communication would be "unmanageable." I would also consider a dog to be unmanageable if, at the Novice level, it continually strained at the leash and refused to accompany the handler through the course. This is not always purely black & white. Sometimes it is a judgment call as to when the line is crossed between a "lack of control" and "unmanageable." That is when it is imperative that the Judge have what the obedience regulations call "... a mental picture of a theoretically perfect performance ..." to score each dog against. It is my opinion that a dog scored NQ for being unmanageable should, in most cases, also be excused. There is very little to be gained by allowing the unmanageable behavior to continue. It is far better to excuse the team and let them come back another day and try again. However, it is very important to convey to the team that they are NOT being punished or ridiculed ... only excused. It would certainly put Rally in a bad light if we, as Judges, were to do anything that would embarrass or humiliate our exhibitors. (Of course, it goes without saying that we would not want to do this in regular obedience, or agility, either! < g>) Thanks! Your point on excusal is wonderful! I once had a friend who was horrified when the judge excused her after her dog got up and wandered about on the long sit. I explained she should thank the judge with all her heart - he was only trying to keep her dog from having a second opportunity to practice "wandering"! (and to give the other dogs in the ring a fair shot at succeeding without undue interference!) Always helpful. Thanks. I agree with you, too. To me, "Lack of control" would be a brief lapse, and "unmanageable" being more serious, and longer lasting. Great description and very clear. Thanks for sharing. I'm also on another Obedience list, where several Judges also subscribe. There was a discussion about the "theoretically perfect performance" and one of the Judges quoted Bob Self. Apparently, Bob has expressed over the years that "sometimes you have to Judge with your heart." It was also suggested that the Judge needs not just the idea of the Theoretically Perfect Performance, but they also need to have a picture of a QUALIFYING performance -- the "should this dog, with this performance, qualify" picture. I found both ideas quite valuable. Okay -- I understand where you gals are coming from, and I agree to some extent. Rally is a new sport, and we're still working the kinks out with all the possible details involved. HOWEVER, there is a rule about "standardized judging". It says basically that the Judge cannot require, or penalize for, anything NOT in the regulations. In Obedience, this means that we KNOW what will be expected and required for a Recall or a Stand For Exam, and we never have to go into the ring to have a Judge say "Okay, but I want you to do it THIS way in MY ring". Rally should eventually be the same. The exercises should be performed in a standardized manner, according to the descriptions as they are written. I know that we're all still working on getting a standardized understanding of the descriptions, but at some point in the future, anyone entering a Rally ring should not have to ask the Judge how an exercise should be performed, and we should be working toward that goal. JMHO BTW, the reference to Standardized Judging, as is usually the case with me, was just an attempt to introduce an idea to the list. My sincere apologies if anyone thought I was referring to anyone on this list -- because I was not. I know that we have a dedicated group of people with only the best interests of the sport at heart, and I'm so proud to be associated with all of you through this list. Many thanks to everyone who participates and shares ideas and even opposing points of view. These are the things that keep our minds working and push the sport along. I thought it was an excellent posting. Never having judged before, I appreciated the eye opener. I'm judging today so it will certainly help me. Thanks! There is a compromise, and it's easy to work with. Just ask - is this dog working with his/her handler? Is he/she under control? Is the dog close enough to be able to do the exercises at the signs? Do they appear as a team? If the answers are "yes", then no deductions should be made. Now, that's *my* nsho. What do we think of starting with 100 points in Rally? Part of the reason for choosing 100 points, is that there are no individual exercises which are assessed a particular point value, as there is in obedience, so there was no reason to go with 200. Also, a new exhibitor who would have scored 200's in Rally (where half points are NOT scored) who then tries Obedience and drops down to possibly 180 could suffer a big let down. At least, it would be disappointing to me in that situation. We could just as easily have chosen 30 points and declared that you must have "some, or any" points remaining at the end of he run, but 70 out of 100 seemed more positive -- at least to me. Opinions? I'd like to see a higher minimum score. There are fewer points required for a perfect score and yet just as many deductions allowed as for 200. I think 85 out of a 100 would be fine. However.....since there are 10 point deductions in Rally, maybe the 70 is okay. I think I'll withhold final opinion until more Rally is being done and scored to see how things go. I understand, and percentage wise you'd be exactly right. But with 13 to 18 exercises, as opposed to Obedience where there are 6 or 7 exercises, it seemed to make sense at the time to keep the "30 point" window to qualify. That definitely could change, but also, a Substantial deduction in Obedience is 5 points, whereas Rally has 10 point deductions. I do feel that, once exhibitors are comfortable in Rally, the average score will be quite high. I don't think the 100 point maximum should be an issue. I think participants will notice less of a drop going from Rally to traditional obed with this. If their scores are 90 - 95 in Rally, they could be easily be 180 - 190 in reg. It looks like a higher score Incorrect or Incomplete? Just a thought. The example given was Halt, call dog front, finish left/right (and halt) #41, 42. If the team did not do the last halt it would be incomplete, all parts of the exercise not performed. If the dog finished the wrong way, i.e. left instead of right, it would be incorrect. My students seem to have more problems sorting out the three call front and finish exercises than anything else Another example might be the 1, 2, 3 steps. If the team got only up to 2 steps it would be incomplete, (or if they did 1 then 3 steps and then forward.) If the team took extra steps (4 instead of three) it would be incorrect. Actually, they are completely different things. All of what you described would be "incorrect performance" which is a 10 point deduction. To me, Incomplete performance is reserved for missing a station, or if the handler or dog became ill and had to leave the ring. If the handler attempts the station but does the exercise incorrectly in any way, either by adding, wrong sequence, or leaving out part, that's still incorrect performance of the EXERCISE, and only points versus an NQ. Incomplete PERFORMANCE relates to the whole run, not a station, and would be an NQ. Any other input on this one? The rally team has completed a sign, moved to the next sign, has completed the sign but on the LEFT side of the sign rather than the right side, moves on to the next sign, correcting the position to the RIGHT side of the sign. The deduction for the incorrect side of the sign: 1 point as in "out of position" or 3 points for failing to be on the correct side of the sign? While that point is not addressed in AKC, Bud does not deduct for exercises performed on the wrong side of the sign, or for moving past a sign on the wrong side. You listers can correct me if I'm wrong. My personal choice is that I would not deduct for that. Actually, they're SUPPOSED to be to the left of the sign, but I understood what you meant. There is no penalty listed for that on the score sheet, and as yet it has not been addressed by AKC. Certainly, we still have a lot of fine points to work out with a new sport. I'm looking forward to AKC Rally Seminars to answer a lot of those questions for us. Score sheet shows Missed or Incorrectly Performed Station as a 10 pt deduction. Incomplete performance, minimum requirements not met... is an NQ. Questions: If you miss a station you have an incomplete performance, so what is it - 10 pts or NQ? And what do they mean by minimum requirements not met? Is that a quick and dirty way of saying they got more than 30 pts deducted so you don't even add the score - just NQ them? All help appreciated because I KNOW my classes will be asking this question. Under AKC's 'general procedures' for an Advanced Class it says "A dog and/or handler, who miss 2 or more stations, must receive a NQ score". For an Excellent Class it says "A dog and/or handler who misses 1 or more stations, a dog that uses a jump as an aid in going over, or knocks the bar off the upright must receive a NQ score". Other than the things stated on the judges form (i.e.: consistent tight lead) I don't see anything specific for the Novice Class regarding an NQ score. Of course 70 points is required to qualify for all levels as I read it. I'm a novice A person (no legs yet, sigh) and have been lurking on the list for half a year or so. You all are soooo helpful! I went to a Rally practice session this weekend (it was fun!) and all the left turns (180, 270, 360) were being done as "get back" type turns where the dog stays on your left and moves his butt backwards to stay in heel position. I remember reading all the detailed instructions given by the list on how to do the schutzhund 180 left turn, where the dog goes "around" and winds up in heel position as the handler does a left about turn. I dutifully practiced it but now I'm wondering what happened to it in the exercises? Do I get to use it and for which exercise(s)? Thanks for your help! Left 180 - picture hands of clock at 12:00 and then turn with dog in heel position to 6:00 Left 270 - picture hands of clock at 12:00 and then turn with dog in heel position to 6:00 and then to 3:00 Left 360 - picture hands of clock at 12:00 and then turn with dog in heel position to 6:00 and then back to 12:00 (or just do a very little, tight, tiny circle - I did mine actually around the sign requesting the exercise) The Left About Turn-Exercise 29 is the schutzhund thing - where the dog goes around you. The About U Turn-Exercise 8 is also done to the left...with your dog in heel position. Actually, for the 360 left, you would be circling away from the sign, since the signs should be placed to the handler's right so they're out of the path of the dog, unless it indicates a change of direction. All 270 & 360 turns should be as tight as possible, but they are "circles" and the dog does not need to back up to perform them. A tight circle for a Great Dane will be much bigger than a tight circle for a Maltese. On the left "U" turn, and the left 180 turns, ideally the dog should move his butt backward to stay in heel position while you turn in place. At least that's my take on it. From the prospective of judging rally, if the exhibitor made the turn in place I wouldn't make any deductions. Turning in a tight circle would be a 1/2 point deduction (in venues where 1/2 point deductions are allowed). Turning in a larger circle would be 1 point. Turning in a very large circle wouldn't be a pivot at all. I would consider that a marginal performance. Some things the dog can do and STILL get a perfect score on the Moving Down Exercise: Drop cautiously (i.e., not fast), put the butt down first as long as there is no pause in the sit and the dog continues into the down, top on command and drop front end first, roll on his side with legs up. Some things that would cause a one point deduction: Resistance to drop (takes considerable time to get the dog into the down), Interference (bumping into the handler, although AKC does not like to use that term as it does not appear in the rules), Out f Position (lying across the handler's feet), tight leash. Some things that would cause a 3 point deduction: Retry of a station, excessive barking, lack of control, loud or intimidating command or signal. 10 point deduction: Performing the exercise incorrectly (dog never ends up in the down position, or handler halts and dog sits and pauses before going down). NQ: Handler KNOWS dog will not down, so skips the exercise entirely. Again, these are my views and others might have a different vision on how Rally should be Judged at this time. Rally is a new, growing, evolving sport, and one which will change as we see what works and what keeps to the original intentions of the sport. We have to learn to add the word "flexible" to our Rally vocabulary -- I'm not sure that word exists in Obedience at all! VBG Dog interfering with the Handler's forward motion: 1 point deduction. I know you're not allowed to touch your dog while on course, but what about incidental contact - such as bumping together while heeling? I'm thinking in my case of those left hand turns where my dog tends to crowd me ( I think he's secretly trying to trip me and spill my bait bag all over the ground for him to clean up). I'm not shoving him out of my way or anything but we do occasionally bump against each other. Is this faulted or a disqualification? Interfering with forward motion, while not called "bumping" is just that. I would not deduct for a slight touch or brush, but if the "bump" is evident to me, I'd take a point. Same with tight leash -- if the leash 'almost' goes tight around the figure 8, no deduction, but if the handler tightens the lead to bring the dog in, one point. If the dog is on a 6 foot lead, and is 5 feet away from the handler, that's "being out of position" which would be a point. Remember that, while that might be 2 or 3 points in Obedience, it's more than a half point error and should merit a one point deduction in Rally. Just my opinions and I welcome anyone else's view. If a dog does a "real" moving down (i.e. the handler doesn't stop) how would you score it? A point or so for a lag (assuming the handler is only a step or two ahead)? Or would you score it as a 3 point error for not doing the exercise correctly? Actually, isn't the "incorrect performance" 10 points and a "retry" would be 3 points? I also understand and do judge it this way. 10 pts incorrectly done. 3 pts retry. I even asked a couple other judges about this as it didn't make sense to me. A smart handler would always do a retry taking 3 pts to an incorrectly done 10 pts. Or just blowing by the station because they think the dog can't do it again that would be a 10 pt. But if they tried knowing the dog wouldn't do it, then retried its only 3! When I do the moving down in Rally competition I slow down giving my dog the down command as my dog is going down I come to a halt as soon as he's down I go forward. I do not stop have him sit them down. The way I understand this is the dog goes down from the stand/walk. Not stopping and then downing If there was no halt in this exercise, it would not be listed as a stationary exercise. If the handler never stopped, there is no halt of forward motion. Also, I have never seen it performed as you describe. At the last AKC show I judged Rally. There were a few OTCH dogs/handlers that ran. They did the moving down this way. Walking along told the dog down the handler kept moving they only got a step or two out in front, called the dog to heel. I didn't score this as anything but done correctly. The dog did the moving down, went right down in a heart beat. The handler said heel, dog caught up in heart beat. To me it was performance that looked good... I did not look at it as a lag. Judging Rally is a lot different than obedience. In obedience the judge also has calls they have to make that the rules don't always cover. And with Rally is the same. Yes there should be consistency between judges. But it's going to be hard to get that all the time. Ah, but under the amended rules, skipping a station is incomplete performance, which is an NQ. The handler must at least TRY to do the station, or no Qualifying Score. I believe it's important to have this provision to keep people training their dogs, and not just skipping stations and getting a title anyway You have a "down" command; does the dog have to stay in line with you when it is down? Jax likes to kind of curve himself in front of my feet, just a little bit out of line. I have been working with correcting it, but thought I would check and see how important this is before I start correcting too much. Also, does anyone know how vital this is in regular obedience? Thanks for the help. . In the Group exercises, if a dog goes down in a manner which "may" interfere with another dog and the Judge has to ask you to reposition your dog, it is a SUBSTANTIAL deduction. Substantial is generally 3 to 5 points. That's called for in the rules. Now, two more scenarios. 1. Handler takes a step forward, one foot up only that gets the dog up, and steps back into place with dog following into a front. Incorrectly performed, 10 points off. My thoughts are that, in a halt, the feet should not move at all. 2. Handler guides dog with hands forward and front. Doesn't touch dog and doesn't move feet. Full credit - no points off. Unless, of course, the dog ends up horribly out of front position, then possibly a point for it. On walk-around exercises (sit, down, stand), if the dog is already in the correct position and you keep repeating the position cue, or the stay cue as you walk around, is that ok, as long as the dog remains in position? Absolutely. There are no deductions for multiple commands, and that's one of the benefits of Rally. Speaking of stays, what happens if the dog gets up before you begin to walk around? Gets up midway thru your walk around? Gets up as you return to heel position, but before you cue forward to go to the next sign? In any of those scenarios it would be incorrect performance of the exercise, and you would have to start over. If the exercise was not tried again it would be incorrect performance for 10 points. If attempted again and successful, 3 points for re-try. How are these scored? Is it an automatic NQ? If not, what can the handler do to lose the least amount of points and still get some credit for the exercise It's an NQ if you don't attempt an exercise, or miss a station, but you could bust on points if you're not careful. There are no deductions for extra commands, but there might be for slow response to commands. If you're saying sit, sit, sit, sit, and the dog are not sitting, you will lose a point for slow response. Reinforcing a command the dog is already doing should not incur a penalty, as in "stay, stay, stay" as you walk around them. What is Slow to Respond? Slow response is just that, slow response. There are no additional deductions for a little slow or a lot slow. If I'm Judging two teams and the first says sit and waits, and the dog takes his time sitting with no indication after the command that he intends to sit, it's a point for slow response. If the next handler says sit, and the dog does not sit, so the handler continues to say sit, sit, sit, and the dog finally sits, it's still a point for slow response. There are no "grades" in Rally, and I don't think we really want there to be. Just as in a crooked sit in Obedience could be half point, one point, two points or three points, in Rally the half point crooked sit would be ignored, and any of the 1, 2, or 3 point crooked sits would be one point off. When we start getting into gradients of deductions, we're looking at moving toward Classic Obedience type scoring, and there's plenty of time for that when we move to Classic Obedience. My choice would be to use additional commands, and I frequently do, even with my UDX dog. If the dog starts to sit when he hears the command, but does so slowly, I would not take a deduction in Rally. What I'm looking for is RESPONSE to the command. Did the dog acknowledge the command and begin to respond? Or did the dog ignore the command and choose to remain in position? I count to 3 very slowly 1 1000, 2 1000, 3 1000 and if the dog has not begun to acknowledge the command I would deduct a point for slow response. All Judges are supposed to have a mental picture of what each exercise should look like and Judge by that image. Of course I would not expect a Great Dane to work like a Border Collie, but a quick sit or slow sit are the same no matter what breed is working. A dog that stands, hesitates, or resists is clearly evident, and breed specifics don't enter the picture there, in my opinion. If a big dog halts and is "gathering" himself into a sit, it's a lot different than the same breed standing there while the owner pleads with the dog to sit while giving multiple commands with no response. German Shepherds are notorious for "sitting slowly" in Obedience, but I have seen any of them do fast, accurate sits. Rally is NOT Obedience, and there are no half points for errors which would be scored in Obedience. I think the 3 second rule is pretty accurate, and again, to me it's more about the handler pleading with the dog to sit, while he either doesn't, or nonchalantly gets around to it. Working slow is not breed specific; it's a training problem and should be addressed as such. I don't think we'll see too much done slowly in Rally, since the clock is running while we are! We had both Rally Novice and Rally Advanced both days. We had around 22 in Novice each day and 5 in Advanced. If it had been titling, *every* team would have qualified! I think the lowest score of any dog was an 85, and that was a breed Sheltie who had never had any formal obedience training, but had an experienced trainer as a handler. I provided all the signs, and was able to get them in order prior to setting the course. A few members set the course while the judge was at lunch, so all she had to do was tweak when she returned. I also had score sheets available. She had brought her own, but liked the ones I had and used them. Prior to the walkthrough, she had a demo dog do the course. We had 3 stewards. The Gate steward got everyone lined up and into the ring, and had the score sheet for the next dog in hand. We used 1/2 sheets and small clipboards (same ones we use for scribe sheets in agility). When the judge finished with one dog, the timer gave her the time, and she wrote it on the score sheet. She had also added up the points off. She handed the score sheet to the gate steward, and got the next score sheet. The gate steward handed the previous one to the Score steward, and picked up the next score sheet. The Score steward then checked the arithmetic, and figured the final score. When the judge was done with the class, all she had to do was to write the score into the judge's book, as the armband numbers, etc were already in there. Everything moved very smoothly. In our rally practice today I had set up the sign which involves the "halt, stand, down" and I noticed my dog and several others moved out of "heel" position during the position changes, i.e.: my dog moved forward while standing up and then laid down sorta half-way in front of me, so how is this sort of thing scored? I believe this is an Excellent level exercise, soooo we won't be seeing it in competition any time soon, but I was wondering how many points you would lose if you're dog doesn't remain in roughly "heel" position during the position changes or doesn't it matter what his position is relative to you as long as he does all the parts of the exercise? Not being a judge but thinkin' about it - if the dog were 3/4 to 1 full body length in front, I'd probably deduct a couple points. If the dog had only moved maybe half a body length or a skosh more, I would most likely not count it. Some dogs, by virtue of their length and overall size, just can't be as delicate and perfect in their motions for these kinds of exercises. Some big dogs can do it fine and some can't. I did have a question and want the consensus of the group. If the team has already lost 1 or 2 points on a station and then goes back and repeats the station. Should we take off 4 or 5 points or just the 3 for repeating the station? The points were already lost before the repeat. Better to just lose an additional 3 than an additional 10. It would be very difficult to re-evaluate every station upon completion of that station. I don't know what she had in mind but the one that came up yesterday in the Rally demo/ run throughs was: Dog fronts crooked (1 pt) handler redoes the station. I would take 3 points off for the station as a retry. This is especially a problem with a good team that doesn't want to let a crooked sit/ front go unaddressed. From what I've seen, each retry is 3 points. Should the handler get the exercise wrong again, or cannot get the dog to perform it, they can try again. After 3 tries at 3 points each, I would just go with the 10 points for incorrect performance. I think the answer so far has been to just keep adding on the points. But let me make sure I am clear. Let's use the Halt - Stand - Walk around dog exercise (sorry don't have the AKC # handy). The dog is very slow responding to the sit in heel position so I take a point. Then the dog is slow to respond to the stand command so I take a point. The dog finally stands but is at a right angle to the handler so he/she decides to repeat the station. Do I add the 2 points to the 3 for repeating the station? or are the first 2 points "erased" when the station is completed? I think the total deduct should be 5 points but wanted to be sure. In Obedience, often the penalties do NOT compound. If you are losing your dog in heeling and give an extra command, it's 3 points. That's 3 points whether it's a verbal, or a hand signal, or a head motion, or pat of your thigh, or finger snap. However, if you give a verbal, head motion and pat your thigh all at the same time, you STILL only lose 3 points. My opinion is that the higher penalty cancels out the minor points. Either a 3 point or a 10 point deduction is enough of a penalty, and at that point you're looking at qualifying versus non-qualifying in many cases, as the rest of the course was probably not stellar either. I thought you all might like to know that if you are judging, and an entire class is absent (for example, if there were only 3 entries in Advanced Rally and none showed), you still must mark and submit the book to AKC. This happened to us at a trial, with the judge not knowing she still had to sign and turn in the book. Onofrio's people were freaking out until she got home (2 1/2 hours), at which time we reached her by phone and they fixed it up. A missed station or a station not attempted is currently a 30-point deduction while Rally is a Non-Regular Class and will be a Non-Qualification when Rally becomes a Regular Class. An incorrectly performed station is a 10-point deduction. Multiple re-tries with associated faults should not total more than 10 points. If someone cannot get the dog to do the exercises, and retries, they lose 3 points per retry, but cannot lose more than 10 points on any exercises. Multiple unsuccessful retries can cause the dog to be excused from the ring for holding up judging. Missing a Station. Scenario: handler is looking at dog and passes a station without seeing the sign. However, before (s)he gets to the next sign, the error is discovered and the team turns around, goes back to the missed sign, performs the exercise and continues on to complete the course. Should points be deducted? If the handler passes the station, gets to the next one and realizes they missed one -- they DID miss the station. I would consider a 3 point deduction for a retry, as opposed to an NQ or 10 point deduction. Again, that's just my opinion. If they have not gotten to the next station yet, but are just a little lost, and manage to "think" themselves out of it, I would probably not deduct. If they pass a station and perform the NEXT station, it's a 'done deal' they missed the station. Okay listers, let's put it in context. YOU just had a wonderful run with your dog and scored a 99. The next exhibitor does a nice job, not as 'spiffy' as you did, but not badly enough to lose any points, then the above happens -- they pass a station, get to the next one, remember they missed one and go back to perform it. Should that person end up with a score of 100 and win the class? I'm not a judge, but what our trainer, who is an obedience judge, told us was that if you miss a station or incorrectly perform it and redo or go back, you lose three points as opposed to 10. If no points are taken off, then it appears that the team completed the exercise as well as another team that did not miss the station, and then go back. The time score could be the same as another team that completed each station in order, but has a slower dog. If all the stations are completed, then the team should not be NQ'd, but, there should be some acknowledgement that a mistake occurred. Also, as time only counts as a tie breaker, then I don't think it's quite accurate to characterize the extra time incurred as a penalty. I guess from my point of view, if going through the stations in an established order is part of the handling skills side and most exhibitors do it, then the exhibitor who doesn't should get dinged. It's not what comes to my mind as the image of how the course should be correctly performed. My two cents! Actually even this sounds much like I would do, I think a point should be taken off, because it was not a smooth My 2 cents worth is 3 points as a retry. Better than 10 points for an uncompleted station. I deduct 3 pts for a retry and anything else which occurs during the retry. Don't think that a team can ONLY lose 1 pt or 3 pts or 10 pt. Just for instance, from a judging standpoint: If a person does ANY retry, still is incorrect on the station or incomplete, they CAN receive add'l deductions, not instead of. Today I had a person do a retry and then fail the exercise anyway. The scoring is -3pts for the retry + -10 for incorrect performance of the station. Their score for that ONE station was a MINUS 13. Just more food for thought from my side of the clipboard. What I'm seeing on most of the responses is that they're looking at this as a re-try and yet the station was never started. Should we consider it as a re-try or find a new term? Suppose you are driving down the street and listening to music in your car while talking to a passenger. You miss your turn. Isn't it possible that you might say, "Oops? Better try again"? That's fine if that's how you see it, but it ain't that way in Obedience. If you were heeling off lead and the dog started for the ring gate in Obedience, and you gave a second command it would be points -- probably 3. A verbal is 3, a hand signal is 3, a leg pat or kiss is 3, but all the Judges I know take a one time blanket 3 points if you do ALL of the above while trying to get the dog back. In Rally, traditionally, the higher deduction over rides or cancels out the lower one. If a handler gets it wrong 2 or 3 times and goes on, I'm just going to take a blanket 10 points for incorrect performance. I tend to agree with this. I think I'd just take off the 10 points for an incorrect performance I consider it a "re-try" because they SHOULD have tried it the first time they passed it, and it's a good alternative to a missed station. I would consider this at least a retry - the station sign was passed (so exercise wasn't performed at the sign as required), so handler has to go back to sign(?) and do the exercise. Wouldn't this be comparable to a runby/runout (not sure exactly what it's called) in agility? So, I'd take off points for retry, plus any additional for the actual exercise performed as needed. Since you can't give extra points to handler who performed the exercise at the sign the first time, the handler who passes the sign and has to go back and try/retry the exercise should be penalized. Is it (should it be) defined somewhere when one station ends and the next begins, so when point X is reached, the exercise is scored as accomplished or missed? Sign to sign? Half way between? That's a good question, but the way this appears to be viewed is as a missed station and once you're more than a couple steps past without any obvious attempt to perform the exercise, it's missed. However, since some people will be performing the exercises past the station, we do have to allow them enough room to go past the sign but I should think they would be doing it all along so the judge would have a pretty good idea of how far they've gone for it to be considered missed. I'll have to review the regs for all the organizations to find out which, if any, of them allow the exercises to be performed past the sign. I know Bud says that the halt-side step right - halt and the moving side step right can both be performed past the sign. Well, the original question (I think) was how much (if any) to penalize a dog and handler who missed a station, but went back and (re)did it before they got to the next one. (I believe it was something like: did station 14, went past 15 but not quite to 16, then went back and did 15, then did 16) Yes, the exercise is supposed to be performed AT/in front of the sign. So, if judging the exercise ends as soon as the team has passed the sign and the handler has not attempted the exercise, then that station should be NQ'd for no attempt. (I think part of the original question was: how can you "retry" when there was no "try" - hmm, sounds like Yoda! As indicated, (at least at midnight last night ()>) I'd come down on the "retry" side, but could be easily convinced that it was a "no attempt" because the team had passed the sign without even trying the station. However, some exercises BEGIN at the sign and continue on past - would that make a difference? Caveat - my rally experience is limited to reading the rules (and I might have missed this point) and station descriptions, experimenting with my own dogs, and one rally run-through (with a CD dog who hates obedience). You hit my dilemma on the nail. LOL That's why I posed it to the List. I do believe that most everyone is leaning toward a re-try, IF they come back and do it before they've reached the next sign or begun the next exercise. Still, it is a definite gray area in my mind. Passing the station means you missed the station. A Re-try should also apply if the handler catches the mistake before the beginning of the next station, in my opinion. A moment of confusion -- IF they catch it should NOT cost them a leg, and my "mental image of a QUALIFYING performance" would allow this. Once the next station is attempted, it's a done deal -- the exercise is missed/skipped and the NQ is recorded. That's just the way I see it, and I'm sure AKC will clarify things at the seminar. Some signs cannot physically or properly be performed before the sign. The 1, 2, 3 steps forward takes you WAY past the sign, and send over the jump often occurs past the sign, moving side step right can be performed past the sign, and is more convenient that way. The point is, did the handler breeze past the sign and continue on to the next one, but REMEMBER the previous sign. If we allow handlers to mess up an exercise, go back and RETRY for a lower deduction, why should a handler that messes up by going past a sign be denied the same benefit. IF they remember, and most who miss a station don't, I think it's fair, given the other circumstances in the scoring, to allow a retry prior to beginning to perform the next station. I don't think we want to go into the details of defining the start and end of each of 50 exercises, when each has different components and requirements, and I don't think we should. I also don't think a handler should be penalized for stopping even with, or possibly even a step or so past the sign when performing an exercise. It's to the handler's benefit to stop where they can read the sign if they need to check the exercise, and backing up to read it would not be appropriate. Again folks, do we ALREADY want to get into the nit-picky, stringent definitions and details before Rally is even titling? Rally is all about having a "comfort zone." A relaxed attitude and fun experience in the ring, with a flat deduction instead of gradients. The more detail that is added in now, the more Rally just becomes Obedience with signs. JMHO, and any or everyone is free to disagree with me, but that's how I see it. Without wanting to have this become rigid, if a station calls for three things to be done and you don't do them, it seems that that's not quite right to pass when all the other dogs would have/should have done them. Thoughts? That was discussed, and it was the committee's opinion was that, since Rally is not like Obedience in that it's ONE CONTINUOUS PERFORMANCE, not separate exercises each with an assigned score, that an incorrect performance should carry a 10 point deduction instead of an NQ. That may change in the future, but I kind of hope it doesn't. How does this equate with the other registries versions of Rally? Recently, while judging some Rally courses, I have had the handler pause or stop while trying to get their bearings on the course. Meanwhile, the better trained dogs are immediately sitting. This would be absolutely correct in normal heeling, so I have not taken any points off when it occurs. Interested to know how the other folks on the list view this. Would you deduct or not? If so, why? I'm assuming you mean between stations? I wouldn't take off points for that. There is nothing in the rules that prohibits it. I would look at it as the dog working "with" the handler - stopping under control as the handler stops. If the handler stops and the dog sits automatically, I would not deduct. The rules state that the dog must correctly perform each exercise, but I've not seen anything that would indicate a penalty for an extra sit between stations while the handler gets their bearings. (Refer to notes from the Seminar, where Roger indicated that we're not supposed to "kill" the handler.) Then how do you judge the heeling between exercises? There is nothing on the score sheet about it. Heeling is part of the requirements for Rally. The rules state that "precise heel position" is not required, but that doesn't mean that heeling isn't required. Deductions for lack of teamwork, out of position, slow response, interference with handler's forward movement, tight leash, and poor sits all apply mostly to heeling. That's most of the 1 point deductions. Fortunately, since Rally is "forgiving" in scoring -- no half point errors would be counted, it's a harder to get deductions for those things in Rally than it would be in Obedience. We get a wider range and a lot more latitude in our performances. Someone on the list mentioned that if you held your hand out from your body and drew a semi circle in the air, that's where the dog would have to stay within. Of course, that might vary a bit due to size of dog and individual Judge, but it's a good reference point for heeling in Rally. We also had a long discussion a couple of years ago about whether heeling between stations should count. The result was that most felt that heeling between stations should count, since Rally is one "continuous performance." Most of the deductions I must take for heeling have to do with tight leash and interference, second biggest reason for deductions would be poor sits or slow response. Poor sits would be sitting very crooked, not slightly crooked, and slow response is just that. Now, for slow response, if the handler, say, stops heeling and the dog is supposed to sit, but just stands there, I'm not making a deduction yet. I'm going to let the handler tell the dog to sit, and if the dog sits or is slowly gathering himself to sit, no deduction. However, if the dog does not sit, and the handler is repeatedly saying sit, sit, sit, sit, with no response, there would be a one point deduction for slow or resistant to respond. If heeling was not on the score sheet, it could be a hint that heeling was NOT an issue? There is no set score sheet - only recommended ones. The score sheets I've seen only have places to take off for 1, 3, 10 point deductions or NQ. They don't have spaces to take off for each exercise. Unlike traditional obedience, where each individual exercises is assigned a specific point value, in Rally, the *entire* performance is worth at most 100 points. So, a "tight lead" is a "tight lead" - not specifically attributed to an exercise or anything else. To me, it means that a point can be taken off for a tight lead *anywhere* on the course - at an exercise, or between exercises. And, I do take off between exercises. No, I don't require "strict obedience heeling position", but I do expect the teams to work together - in other words, the dog must be moving with the handler, in their vicinity, going in the same direction, and at the same speed as the handler. I will deduct for a dog that is not "with" the handler. BTW - even in traditional obedience, the judge may deduct points between exercises if the dog is out of control, or the handler acts inappropriately. Rally is one continuous performance. It is not "get to sign # however you can" then perform that exercise then "get to the next sign however you can" then do that one. I feel the entire performance should be teamwork, and each thing asked of the team should be done properly. Do you take off multiple points for multiple tight leads? How do you decide when to take off more points or when it becomes a non-qualifying (if we had qualifying!) performance? First of all, I won't deduct for a slightly tight lead - one that goes "straight" rather than having the "J" bend to it. I take off if the lead actually puts pressure on the dog. Generally, if a lead is that tight, the dog is also out of position. I will only go to the point of non-qualifying if the handler is actually using that lead to guide the dog repeatedly throughout the performance. If the lead simply tightens some several times, especially on turns, I'll deduct a few points, but will still Q the team. If I see the handler making corrections, or pulling on the lead to make the dog change direction or position, and it's done more than a couple times, then I'd consider NQ'ing. To me, that would be a physical correction, which is not allowed. To me, in Rally, a dog need not be "perfect". However, I do feel they should be trained - especially for the simpler things like sit, down, turning, and staying with the handler. Here's my own personal barometer. There is a 30 point deduction (NQ) for a "consistently tight lead". To my mind that means it's tight more often than not. That's when I would NQ a team. I DO take off for each tight lead. That's a big "pet peeve" of mine. With all the extra help we can give our dogs in Rally, there is absolutely no reason to have a tight lead deduction in the Rally ring. Using the lead in that way is not allowed, but talking, patting, clapping, using body language, and cheer-leading is allowed. With the alternatives, any handler should be able to get the dog working with them without having the leash go tight. I take one point for each occurrence. If the dog is "guided" through the whole course with tight leads, it would be an NQ under "consistently tight lead" (or currently 30 points in a non regular Rally class). I'm probably going to make that decision just past the half way point of the course, or when the handler hits 30 points in deductions -- and I have seen this in training, although I've not seen it in the ring yet. In my opinion, this rule is a great opportunity for handlers to learn to communicate with their dogs without using the leash, which is eventually going to disappear in the upper classes anyway. If the handler can control the dog without using the leash, they're learning how to control them when the leash is no longer there. Again, JMHO I know there is a "judge's book" shown on the AKC's website in Rally regs. Do we just print that out and provide it to the judge? Or does the judge bring his/her own? That is a perfectly reasonable and sensible question, and one that a lot of other folks on the list would like answered as well. Yes, you can print out the Judges Book from the Rally Rules on the AKC web site. You an use carbon paper (messy) or you can take it to a print shop and have them make carbonless copies, as you need 4 copies of each sheet -- One for the Club, one for the Judge, one to post, and one to sent to AKC, and don't forget to send a copy of the COURSE with the Judges Book. As a judge. I always have the rules with me. I have made my own booklet from the AKC web site. It will be nice when they get the rule books printed out like the obedience books are. Until then all judges should print it out and carry it with them. In fact I had one competitor tell me I couldn't do something (can't remember what it was right now) but I had the rules with me and she read them and apologized. So it is important to keep them with you. Also clubs and people putting on Rally should have extra copies of the rules on hand. Also they should have the judge's work sheets. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Part of the reason that Rally Judges need to be familiar with Obedience is that Rally exercises are based mostly on Obedience exercises, and Bud's original concept was that deductions in Rally would be appropriate for errors also scored as a whole point in Obedience. Errors worth only a half point (in Obedience) would not be scored, but errors worth a whole point or more in Obedience should be scored the same in Rally. 1. Tight Leash: This one is pretty self explanatory and obvious. I don't take a deduction for the "almost" tight leash, but I think it's pretty clear when the leash has actually gone tight. When the leash and clip are tight, and the leash causes the collar to exert pressure against the dog's neck, there should be a deduction. This is one of my "pet peeve" errors since, with all the ways we have to communicate with our dogs, there should be no happen. It's the handler's job to find ways other than the leash to communicate with the dog. Eventually the leash will disappear in the upper level classes, so other options may as well be developed right from the start. Often the handler is more dependent on the leash than the dog! 2. Poor Sits: This could include a multitude of "sit" errors. In Obedience (this is where it helps to be familiar with scoring) slightly crooked sits receive a half point deduction. In Rally, those would be overlooked and not scored. However, in Obedience anything more crooked would receive a one point deduction, up to 3 points for, say, sitting at a right angle to the handler. Rally gives us a break, since anything slightly crooked is not scored, and anything more crooked than that would earn only a 1 point deduction, no matter how crooked it is. Also dogs sitting, say, a body length ahead, behind, or wide of the handler (so that another dog could easily fit between the dog and handler and be in correct position) would earn a 1 point deduction as well. Some might consider this "out of position," but I believe that sit errors should be scored as such. Most of the errors I see are crooked sits, rather than forged or lagged sits. 3. Out of Position: This error is easily evident, depending on the "range" of heel position envisioned by the Judge. The Rally rules specify that "perfect heel position is not required," but that does not mean that your dog could heel 6 feet away without penalty. My "range" of heel position in Rally is from the shoulder to the wrist of the handler in any direction. So, if the handler were to extend the left arm and draw a semi circle from front to back, ending with the wrist (that's roughly about 24 inches, and the gauge I use) and the dog stayed within that area, there should be no deduction. If the dog forges or lags more than that, or goes wide more than that, I believe a 1 point deduction is appropriate. 4. Interference with Handler's forward motion: This error is also referred to as "bumping," but in my opinion is not limited solely to physical contact. Interference with the handler's forward motion includes the dog that "bumps" the handler while working, or gets in the handler's way of performing the exercise so that the handler makes contact with the dog. However, if the dog blocks the handler's path so that the handler almost falls over trying to avoid contact with the dog, the dog has still interfered with the handler's forward motion, in my opinion. Since it's listed as "forward" motion, a dog that bumps the handler on a front or finish should not get a deduction. 5. Slow to Respond: This is an interesting error. There is no penalty for multiple commands in Rally, but there is a penalty for slow to respond. Slow to respond, to me, means the dog did not respond to the handler's command to perform, but has nothing to do with how fast the dog actually performs the command. For example, a German Shepherd that begins to gather himself into a sit on the handler's command, even though it takes an extended period of time to accomplish the sit, should not be penalized. However, the Irish Terrier that stands wagging his tail, totally oblivious to the handler's command to sit with no indication that he has even heard the command, should get a deduction of 1 point. Remember -- it's the dog's "response" to the command, not his performance of it that counts. 6. Resistant to Respond: Resistance is generally easy to determine, and I don't see much of it in the Rally ring. Resistant would be the dog that refuses many attempts by the handler to get the dog to perform the exercise. When the handler is commanding and pleading with the dog to "down" and the dog is refusing to comply, that's resistant, and is due a 1 point deduction. 7. Lack of Team Work: This error covers a lot of ground. This can cover the dog that would rather sniff the mats than heel, or a dog that shows interest in something other than working with the handler, including going for a quick sniff of the food bowls on the Off Set Figure 8. It's hard to describe all the areas where this could apply, but generally, you know it when you see it -- the dog is just not working with the handler as part of a team. I think 1 point is appropriate for this. 8. Touching Jump: Also called "ticking" a jump. This should not be seen often in Rally since the jump heights are lower than, I believe, any other sport. It refers to the dog's toenails hitting the jump as they go over, and it's an audible error -- everyone hears it happen. No mistaking it. This is not to include the dog's coat or tail brushing the jump. So those are some examples of each error. There will be others under those headings, but this should give a general idea of what to expect. Anyone should feel free to disagree with me, or give their own interpretation of the errors listed. As with any new sport, we're all still getting a "feel" for how to score and understand the errors listed, and interpretations could change as the sport develops. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I was at a trial on the weekend (got our novice title and 1 advanced leg...yippee!) But it wasn't without a bit of discussion... As soon as we started the advanced course, Briar headed right for the treats at another station! Immediately I said "wrong" and then immediately said "oh-oh, I wasn't supposed to say that!!" The judge had clearly stated that any verbal corrections in the ring would be an "NQ". He finished the rest of the course fine. So HOW did we get a "Q"??? After the class the 2 judges consulted and decided that since the correction didn't "adversely affect" the dog (i.e. I didn't scream and he didn't cower), that they would just take off points instead. It was obvious that it was a "slip of the tongue" and I admire that they took it into consideration since a lot of the judging is a very "gray area"...but when it comes down to it, a lot is logic! You're right, a lot is logic. "To me" a verbal correction would have been a loud "AHHH" or "NO". The word "wrong" or "leave it", to me would just be commands to control a dog, much as a handler would command a dog back to heel position if he had gone wandering (Hey you! Get back over here and heel with me -- as opposed to BAD, NO, stupid dog!) Depending on how the words and how they are delivered, I have a clear picture of what should be considered a correction and what is not. JMHO. Regarding the recent topics of corrections in Rally being an NQ, I wanted to throw open this topic for discussion. The Rally rules are clear that a physical correction should be substantially penalized, to the point of an NQ or excusal from the ring. I agree with that. With all of the ways we can communicate with the dog, physical corrections should not be tolerated in Rally. There is also a 3 point penalty for loud or harsh command or signal. Only once have I ever had to make such a deduction, and I don't think the handler intended it the way it was perceived. (Moving down, handler yelled DOWN with a huge swing of the arm that looked like she was going to strike the dog, and the dog ducked his head and slowly lowered to the ground.) I think a 3 point penalty for this is appropriate as well. Then there are the gray areas, and I would like to discuss some of those with the list. Let me offer some scenarios to illustrate what I mean. Some I've seen in competition, others I can see happening. 1. Handler in Novice, dog on lead, dog is lagging and on an About Turn, the handler drives into the turn which results in a pop on the lead. Handler did not "correct" by pulling on the lead, but the dog got popped nonetheless. Depending on the severity, I would think this would be worth 3 to 10 points, depending on the situation. Could be accidental, could be on purpose. 2. Heeling in Advanced class, and the dog drifts away from heel position. Handler scolds the dog to "Get back over here and I said HEEL!" as she slaps her own leg hard. Has moved toward the dog while attempting to get the dog back to her. I would feel that the slap combined with the harsh scolding was due at least a 10 point deduction for handler error. 3. Advanced class, and the working team gets to the Off Set Figure 8. The dog leaves the handler to visit the food bowls and stays there, deeply inhaling the lovely odor of BilJac treats, ignoring the handler's repeated pleas and commands to resume working. The handler has moved toward the dog to try to regain the dog's focus. a. How long would you wait for the handler to attempt to regain control? I would give a "reasonable" amount of time (read that as maybe 20 to 30 seconds), then mark the dog as unmanageable (handler could not regain control), but would probably allow the team to finish the course by taking the dog gently by the collar to lead it away from the bowl. b. Handler gives repeated harsh, but not loud commands to "leave it". If the dog resumes working, I might think about a 3 point deduction for the harshness of the commands, not the fact that the dog was told to leave it. If the dog stays at the bowl, unmanageable, but would probably allow them to finish the course by taking the dog gently by the collar to lead it away from the bowl. c. Handler cannot get the dog to respond to leave the bowl, so she takes the dog by the collar and yanks the dog away from the bowl. My take is, dog unmanageable, handler corrected the dog, and the team is excused. d. Handler cannot get the dog to respond to leave the bowl, and talking sweetly, takes the dog gently by the collar attempting to get the dog working again. I might take a 3 to 10 point deduction for touching the dog under handler error, depending on how this was handled, and would likely hit 10 points for incorrect performance if they did not complete the exercise correctly. e. Handler says "leave it" in an upbeat voice, or even a firm commanding voice, but not harsh, and the dog avoids the temptation and continues working. I would not take a deduction, and would consider that smart handling and a prime example of what Rally should be about -- developing teamwork through good communication skills. f. Dog is totally absorbed with investigating the bowl, handler thinks fast and says "Want a cookie?" Dog goes back to working. I would think smart handling to refocus the dog, and take 3 points for lack of control, for the difficulty getting the dog back to working. 4. Dog (let's say it's a Boxer -- VBG) leaves heel position, takes a lap around the ring, then returns to heeling when the handler commands the dog to go back to work. Handler's tone of voice while trying to regain control has been firm, but not harsh or angry. I would likely take 3 points for lack of control, since the dog DID resume working and the handler managed to regain control. Looking forward to everyone's view points on this issue. Some more scenarios: Let's say a team is working in the Rally ring, and a dog in a nearby ring jumps the ring gate and runs about enticing the working dog to play. a. The Rally dog accepts the invitation to play and the two scamper about the ring despite the handler's commands to return. I would likely get the dogs back under control, and would give the team a chance to run the course again, after a short break to allow them to refocus. b. The Rally dog is interested in the invitation to play, and the owner, seeing that the dog might take off, gently takes the dog by the collar and steps between their dog and the loose dog to prevent a possible altercation or free-for-all with the two happily frolicking around the ring. I'd consider that smart handling to protect your partner, and would allow the team to run the course again. In my opinion, when the other dog entered the ring, the last thing that should be considered is scoring the handler touching the collar to protect the dog. Safety and regaining control should be paramount. c. The working dog has accepted the invitation to play, and happily dashes about the ring. The owner of the Rally dog is furious, and when the dog ventures near, she lunges and grabs the dog by the scruff, giving him a quick shake and scolding. NQ, and excused from the ring. It wasn't the working dog's fault, but the handler's response to the situation has come into play and should not be ignored. Ideally, Rally dogs should be able to maintain focus with the handler and not accept the invitation to play in a situation like this, but training for the possibility that this could happen can be tough to do. I would certainly expect the handler to stop running the course and focus on protecting their dog from the intruder, since the dog is more important than any ring performance. One of the responsibilities of Rally should be to create a positive impression of teamwork and the ability to build a relationship with the dog based on mutual respect. Behavior that would prove detrimental to the sport should not be tolerated. Without a doubt, I've seen many awesome teams in Rally that just make me smile the whole time they're in the ring. I'm unfortunately NOT very good at hiding how I feel about what I'm watching. When a team is not working well, I might look concerned, or frown a bit, or purse my lips. I know I'm doing it, but I can't control it, it's just automatic. But when a team enters the ring that works as a single entity, not with precision, but in the connection that they bring with them, it's a breathtaking experience for me. Some teams make me smile as they begin to work, and by the end of the run I'm fairly glowing with enthusiasm for them. Maybe I should work on a "poker face," but in Rally we get to know the score immediately anyway. In any case, to me that's what Rally should be about. Working with a partner that is so in tune with you that the blending of teamwork between you makes those watching lose track of the fact that there are two of you out there giving one great performance. It's like watching a great dance team. You're not looking at a man and woman dancing; you're watching the overall result of their work together which would not be nearly as impressive if only ONE member of the team put forth the required effort. ~~~~~~~~~~~ Taking the score sheet deductions one topic at a time. Part of the reason that Rally Judges need to be familiar with Obedience is that Rally exercises are based mostly on Obedience exercises, and Bud's original concept was that deductions in Rally would be appropriate for errors also scored as a whole point in Obedience. Errors worth only a half point (in Obedience) would not be scored, but errors worth a whole point or more in Obedience should be scored the same in Rally. But we do score only 1 point, 3 points, 10 points, and 30 points. This gives us, to an extent, less leeway for modifying scores, but of course also limits the amount we can take off. Let's tackle the 1 point deductions first, and I've arranged them as on my Score sheet, which is set up by most frequently seen errors. 1. Tight Leash: This one is pretty self explanatory and obvious. I don't take a deduction for the "almost" tight leash, but I think it's pretty clear when the leash has actually gone tight. When the leash and clip are tight, and the leash causes the collar to exert pressure against the dog's neck, there should be a deduction. This is one of my "pet peeve" errors since, with all the ways we have to communicate with our dogs, there should be no reason for this deduction ever to happen. It's the handler's job to find ways other than the leash to communicate with the dog. Eventually the leash will disappear in the upper level classes, so other options may as well be developed right from the start. Often the handler is more dependent on the leash than the dog! I'm in total agreement on this. There is really no excuse for a tight leash in Rally. Have you noticed that in Novice B in Obedience the dog frequently does better off leash than on? Most tight leash is the handler's fault. 2. Poor Sits: This could include a multitude of "sit" errors. In Obedience (this is where it helps to be familiar with scoring) slightly crooked sits receive a half point deduction. In Rally, those would be overlooked and not scored. However, in Obedience anything more crooked would receive a one point deduction, up to 3 points for, say, sitting at a right angle to the handler. Rally gives us a break, since anything slightly crooked is not scored, and anything more crooked than that would earn only a 1 point deduction, no matter how crooked it is. Also dogs sitting, say, a body length ahead, behind, or wide of the handler (so that another dog could easily fit between the dog and handler and be in correct position) would earn a 1 point deduction as well. Some might consider this "out of position," but I believe that sit errors should be scored as such. Most of the errors I see are crooked sits, rather than forged or lagged sits. Not at all--the 3 points in Obedience, I mean. 3 points is for a no-sit, and most judges will deduct at most 2 points for the dog that sits at even more than a right angle. But yes, 1/2 point crooked sits are to be ignored in Rally. Anything big--slightly crooked plus a little out of heel position, for example, up to really bad, but still a sit, gets just a 1 point deduction. Actually, there are some Judges here that do hit for 3 points for sitting at a 90 degree angle to the handler, and I've heard this is common in California as well. It may not be universal, but it's not unheard of either. Rally gets a blessing, in that no matter how crooked the sit is, it's still only a one point deduction. However, in Obedience a no sit would only be 3 points, whereas in Rally, a no sit would be incorrect performance, and thus would earn a 10 point deduction. Some things are easier, and some things are harder. I guess it all balances out in the end because we get to have so much FUN in Rally! 3. Out of Position: This error is easily evident, depending on the "range" of heel position envisioned by the Judge. The Rally rules specify that "perfect heel position is not required," but that does not mean that your dog could heel 6 feet away without penalty. My "range" of heel position in Rally is from the shoulder to the wrist of the handler in any direction. So, if the handler were to extend the left arm and draw a semi circle from front to back, ending with the wrist (that's roughly about 24 inches, and the gauge I use) and the dog stayed within that area, there should be no deduction. If the dog forges or lags more than that, or goes wide more than that, I believe a 1 point deduction is appropriate. Yes, AKC's take on this has been pretty clear at the seminars--an arm's length is the correct distance. Dog places foot on handler's foot on Front exercise. Could be considered out of position. 4. Interference with Handler's forward motion: This error is also referred to as "bumping," but in my opinion is not limited solely to physical contact. Interference with the handler's forward motion includes the dog that "bumps" the handler while working, or gets in the handler's way of performing the exercise so that the handler makes contact with the dog. However, if the dog blocks the handler's path so that the handler almost falls over trying to avoid contact with the dog, the dog has still interfered with the handler's forward motion, in my opinion. Since it's listed as "forward" motion, a dog that bumps the handler on a front or finish should not get a deduction. Also, if the handler actually has to move around the dog in order to perform her part of the exercise. This happens on the Left 270 & 360 fairly regularly. The dog may not actually bump into the handler, but is certainly interfering with the handler's forward motion ("forward" at this point being in the form of a circle). 5. Slow to Respond: This is an interesting error. There is no penalty for multiple commands in Rally, but there is a penalty for slow to respond. Slow to respond, to me, means the dog did not respond to the handler's command to perform, but has nothing to do with how fast the dog actually performs the command. For example, a German Shepherd that begins to gather himself into a sit on the handler's command, even though it takes an extended period of time to accomplish the sit, should not be penalized. However, the Irish Terrier that stands wagging his tail, totally oblivious to the handler's command to sit with no indication that he has even heard the command, should get a deduction of 1 point. Remember -- it's the dog's "response" to the command, not his performance of it, that counts. The way I teach my students to count seconds applies here when I'm judging. If I can count "Good dog one, Good dog two, Good dog three" and the dog is still not paying any attention to the handler's command, he is slow to respond. 6. Resistant to Respond: Resistance is generally easy to determine, and I don't see much of it in the Rally ring. Resistant would be the dog that refuses many attempts by the handler to get the dog to perform the exercise. When the handler is commanding and pleading with the dog to "down" and the dog is refusing to comply, that's resistant, and is due a 1 point deduction. I have a hard time distinguishing this from #5, Slow to Respond. I'd like to sit sometime with a tape of clips of dogs doing some of these things and discuss them with 4 or 5 judges. I'll bet this could be a really difficult one, even if we replayed it again and again. 7. Lack of Team Work: This error covers a lot of ground. This can cover the dog that would rather sniff the mats than heel, or a dog that shows interest in something other than working with the handler, including going for a quick sniff of the food bowls on the Off Set Figure 8. It's hard to describe all the areas where this could apply, but generally, you know it when you see it -- the dog is just not working with the handler as part of a team. I think 1 point is appropriate for this. Agreed. I called it "paying attention to the handler's command." The dog needs to show some evidence that he understands and is working on obeying the command. As far as "resistance," I think you are saying that to fall into this category, the dog will show that he understands, but is NOT working on obeying it. I do think that the "interest in something other than working with the handler" applies here. The dog that is just "along for the ride," and spends his time looking outside the ring, etc., falls into this category. It's not "out of position," but his position will probably vary considerably as he moves only more-or-less with the handler. 8. Touching Jump: Also called "ticking" a jump. This should not be seen often in Rally since the jump heights are lower than, I believe, any other sport. It refers to the dog's toenails hitting the jump as they go over, and it's an audible error -- everyone hears it happen. No mistaking it. This is not to include the dog's coat or tail brushing the jump. I think it's more likely to happen on the broad jump than on the others, since it is less easy for the dog to see that jump coming up, and the picture presented is quite different than in the Open Obedience class. - Time to move up to the more substantial errors worth 3 points each. There are 5, and they are: 1. Repeat Of A Station: Clearly, any exercise which is performed incorrectly and which the working team performs again is a repeat of the station. In repeating a station, the team must perform the entire exercise over, not simply the part that was incorrect. For example, on the Call Front, Finish Right, Forward -- if the dog tried to finish LEFT, the handler could not just stop the dog and bring him back to the front position to try and do the finish correctly. They need to back up, approach the sign and start again from the call front portion of the exercise. In this case, the team gets only a 3 point deduction INSTEAD of a 10 point deduction for incorrect performance -- not in addition to the 10 point deduction for incorrect performance. It's like getting 7 points back! Should the team attempt the station multiple times without success, I would take 3 points for each try, up to 3 tries, and after that I would just take a flat 10 points for incorrect performance. I see no point in taking 3 points each time for 5 tries while the handler attempts to get the station right. If it's not right on the third try, it's time to move on, but the total points off should not exceed the 10 points for incorrect performance in any case, in my opinion. 2. Pylon/Post Knocked Over (on figure-eight, spiral and serpentine only): Knocking over a sign happens very seldom in Rally. The plan to keep the signs on the right, away from the dog, was a good one. If a dog is exuberant enough to knock over a cone, which will take time to reset, there is a 3 point deduction. It's the handler's job to give the dog enough space to work safely and cleanly around the posts. Of course, if the sign for the exercise is attached to the first cone, then knocking the sign over WITH the cone would be due a deduction, but that would be incidental to knocking over the cone. 3. Lack of Control: An example of this would be the Boxer (VBG) that takes a lap around the ring, and then returns when the owner calls him. Also, a dog that goes to investigate the food bowls on the Off Set Figure 8, ignoring the owner's initial commands to leave it or come, but that eventually does respond to the command and return to the handler, should fall into this category. I might also consider a dog that takes a jump, runs out past the handler 10 feet or more, and the handler has to call them back multiple times to have a lack of control. 4. Loud or Intimidating Command or Signal: I think everyone knows what this covers, but shouting a command at the dog should never need to happen in Rally. Also, the intimidating signal designation would cover, say, a "down" signal that appears as though the handler is feigning a strike or hit to the dog. I've seen dogs duck/dodge their head as the hand is swinging fast toward their face (not in the Rally ring). I've only taken a deduction on this one once, and I don't think the handler meant it the way I perceived it, but I couldn't overlook it. 5. Excessive Barking: Excessive Barking is truly a Judgment call. In my ring, I'll give the dog a happy bark at a few stations, but several barks at more than one station will get a one-time deduction to cover the entire performance. Number 6 is likely to be Handler Error. It's not in the rules yet, but I believe it will be added before Rally is titling. Handler Error should cover touching the dog, such as to pet the dog or gently using the hands to position or move the dog at any time while in the ring, and this error would be in addition to any other errors incurred. For instance, if the dog is at the station Halt, Sit, and the handler has trouble getting the dog to sit because, say, the dog is completely absorbed in watching a large dog enter the building, and the handler reaches down and lightly touches the dog's butt with two fingers to remind him he's supposed to be sitting, I would take a point for slow response, and 3 points for touching the dog on top of that. There will be other things that could fall into this category, I'm sure, but at this time the touching designation is what I'm reserving the error for. Since there are only two (possibly to be 3) 10 point deductions, I'll include them here. 1. Incorrectly Performed Station: Clearly, performance of a station not as indicated by the written description would be due a 10 point deduction. That's if the team does not try the exercise again to get it right. As mentioned on the Repeat Of A Station listing, if the station is attempted multiple times (3 or more) without success, I would take a blanket 10 point deduction for Incorrect Performance and let it go. These two errors do not pyramid (it should be one or the other, not both). 2. Hitting The Jump: Hitting the jump would be if the dog's front feet or back feet hit the jump on the way over. There's no mistaking hitting the jump, as opposed to ticking the jump, whether it's the High Jump or the Broad Jump. The Bar Jump would probably be knocked off the uprights if it were hit, which would be an NQ. Number 3, I expect to be Handler Error. Handler Error at this level would be for pushing the dog into position, or dragging an uncooperative dog a short distance with the leash. Neither should have to happen in Rally. I'd call that "rough treatment." NQ/30 Point Deductions: This category is meant to be an NQ once Rally is titling, but for now while Rally is a non regular class there's a 30 point deduction. There are 10 errors listed, however, the original proposal had the first two separated by a "/" and I think they were originally meant to be considered the same thing. Handler Error will likely be added to this category as well, and I have included it. 1. Incomplete Performance: This deduction applies to the performance as a whole, not each individual exercise. Anyone who is excused for whatever reason, or who asks to be excused would be covered under this listing. 2. Minimum Requirements Not Met: This could also indicate that the handler did not finish the course, for whatever reason, but could also apply to a team that NQs on points -- scoring below 70. 3. Station Not Attempted: This indicates that a station was missed or skipped. I feel it was important to have this error listed in the NQ category, because if there were only a deduction for skipping an exercise, someone could choose not to perform a station where the dog, say, would not down, but could still get a title. Any dog earning a Rally title should be able to perform all of the exercises, or at least the team should attempt all of them. Skipped or missed stations are considered the same, as Judges should not have to try to determine intent -- as in whether the handler skipped the station on purpose or missed it by accident. In either case, part of the responsibility in Rally is to be able to follow a course and perform all of the listed exercises, so I think this is appropriate that this would be an NQ. 4. Consistently Tight Lead: Since Teamwork is the main focus of Rally, the vision of a dog being led from place to place through the exercises with a constantly tight lead would be opposite of Rally ideals. In Obedience or Rally, a consistently tight lead is an NQ. I'd say that, whether the leash is always tight while the dog is working, or if the team "points out" by earning 30 points for tight lead, this deduction is due. If the lead is tight for half the performance or more, it's an NQ, and I've seen this happen a couple of times. 5. Dog Unmanageable: This one is for the handler that cannot regain control of the dog. The dog that "runs the ring" and won't come back would be considered unmanageable, as would a dog that the handler cannot get to leave the food bowls on the Off Set Figure 8. No dog should earn a title in a sport that requires teamwork under those conditions. 6. Eliminates in the Ring: Clear and simple, urinating or defecating in the ring is a no-no, whether the class is inside or outside. Any dog that "assumes the position," even if the handler gets them outside the ring before the deed occurs, will be considered as having eliminated in the ring and will not be allowed to continue or run the course again. It's always important to give the dog a good potty break before competition. 7. Uses Jump As Aid: Any dog that uses the jump as an aid to pull himself over, or boost off the top of the high jump, or a dog that steps on the Broad Jump, or steps between the boards, failing to clear the entire distance of the jump shall receive an NQ. 8. Knocks Bar Off Uprights: Simple and easy, if the dog hits the bar and it falls off as the dog is going over, it's an NQ. 9. Substantially Out Of Honor Position: Moving a substantial distance out of position during the honor exercise would be an NQ. I think most Judges would indicate an area where the dog should maintain their position. In Obedience it would be within about a body length, and in Rally, I believe it will be appropriate to the range expected in heeling, a couple of feet. Ideally, the dog should not move at all from the position where left, but Rally does not make provisions for slight movements at this time. 10. Not Staying in Pos./Honor Exercise: Not remaining in the specified position for the entire time required would be an NQ. If the dog changes position, or leaves the position to go to the handler (if the handler is standing in front of the dog) it should be an NQ. I don't expect many dogs to fail this exercise, since the handler will be close and will be allowed to talk to the dog and remind him to stay the entire time. 11. Handler Error: Handler Error at this level I think would be reserved for rough treatment of the dog, such as PUSHING the dog into position, hitting the dog, leash corrections, and any such behavior has no place in Rally (or Obedience, for that matter) and should receive an NQ, and the handler should be excused from further competition. I would consider that unsportsmanlike conduct. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Before I head to my first Rally Excellent try--I want to make sure I understand what is allowable communication with your dog. The description in the proposed regs sounds like you can use verbal and/or traditional hand signals, but nothing like patting legs, etc. And I seem to remember this from earlier discussions. Is that correct? I'm having a difficult time with getting Laddie to front without the backwards steps and hoped to be able to point in front of me, or pat the front of my legs. Is that allowable? ~~~~~ You are correct - you may talk all you want, and give unlimited commands and/or hand signals. As long as what you do with your hands is considered a signal, it is allowed in Excellent. For example, using you hands to direct the dog from heel position to a front could be considered a signal, but tapping your legs would not be allowed. ~~~~ You are correct. In Excellent you may no longer pat your legs or clap hands, snap fingers, etc. You MAY, however, still gesture and use hand signals and verbal commands. Pointing to the front position is allowed, but patting the front of your legs is not. The only exercises where you need to get them to the front position without stepping backward are #41 & 42. After the initial halt with the dog in heel position, I find it useful to bend my knees and point way out in front to "draw" the dog out in front of me, and then direct them back to the sit in front, pointing in front of my body. Hope that helps! ~~~~~~ Does it have to be an AKC Obedience signal? [AKC's definition: " . . . a single gesture with one arm and hand only, and the arm must immediately be returned to a natural position."] Or could the handler use both hands and arms to direct the dog and wind up with pointer fingers indicating the correct position as the dog comes in? (As I have seen.) ~~~~~ Since Rally is not Obedience and pretty much everything is allowed at the first two levels, and since the only restriction for Excellent is no Clapping, Patting type help, I would say that any guiding with one or both hands and arms should be acceptable. Rally exercise descriptions only refer to foot work. I always tell handlers that, basically, the handler in Rally is scored from the knees down. that would make any gestures, pointing, guiding (without touching, of course) acceptable and not to be scored. ~~~~ I would judge this as "training in the ring" if it were in Excellent NQ class. But, allowable, in Advanced. ~~~~~ Para 2. Unlike the non-regular Rally Novice and Advanced classes, in Non Reg Rally Exc (abbreviated by me), ONLY VERBAL (in caps in the regs) encouragement to the dog is permitted. Hand signals are permitted, although handlers may not touch their dog or make any physical corrections. That reads "ONLY VERBAL Encouragement", as opposed to the use of hands to encourage as in patting and clapping. Having attended each of the Advisory Committee meetings, I can tell you that the intention was not to discourage the use of body cues, including both hands. Rally is not Obedience, and great effort was taken to keep it as relaxed as possible compared to Obedience. No matter how we worded that section, some folks have managed to misunderstand the intention. Speaking as a member of the Advisory Committee, I can tell you that not one person on the committee had the intention of limiting communication with the dog at any level. That's why multiple commands and/or signals are still allowed at the Excellent level. Handlers should be encouraged to attempt the Excellent level, not feel pressured by limitations. Not allowing the patting and clapping was meant to slightly reduce the handler's dependence on those aids, not eliminate efforts to continue fostering team work. The phrase "only hand signals are permitted" was added because when folks read the "only verbal encouragement" they thought that you could no longer use any hand signals and would have to rely solely on verbal commands. It is true that each Judge is to interpret gray areas in the rules as they see fit, but I can tell you what the intention of those gray areas were as the sport was being developed. ~~~~~~~~~~ When Roger was here for our seminar, one question was about stepping back to do a finish. He said, at this time, he wouldn't deduct for this, but asked me, and I said I would. I believe a finish is a finish and should be a trained exercise for entering a class. He said, as the judge, my way is also correct. I deduct one pt for stepping back on a Finish. By the way, I don't train my dogs by stepping back for a finish; I train them by stepping forward to do a finish. Conceivably if you wouldn't mark someone stepping back to aid a finish, in the ring, then I'd also be correct to step forward to aid my dog to finish. Bet you never saw that done! LOL ~~~~~~~~~~ And when Roger was here, it was indicated that stepping back on the finish, which is specifically not allowed in the description (the descriptions tell us when we can step backward to get the dog to front -- anything not written as allowed in the description would be incorrect performance and would be 10 points in my ring -- Judge's interpretation) was indicated as incorrect performance. Handler Error was added recently, and it was specifically intended to be used for the instances where handlers touch their dogs. You will notice that it's not included in the 1 point category. Basically, any handler error in footwork would fall under incorrect performance, rather than handler error. The intention for Handler Error is that petting the dog would be 3 points, gently positioning the dog would be 10 points, and correcting the dog would be an NQ. That was discussed in the Judges Guidelines, prior to Rally being presented as a non regular class. Again, I only know the intentions because I was part of the process, and very honored to be invited to participate. In Bud's latest book, he indicates that he feels that patting and clapping should be allowed at every level. He goes so far as to state that: "In the Call Dog Front exercises, the handler may pat the front of each of his/her legs to aid in bringing the dog in close in the proper position." He also states that: "As important as the characteristics of Rally are that create interest and enthusiasm in the handler, perhaps the most exceptional feature of this sport is the ability of handlers to talk to their dogs, praising and encouraging them to develop and maintain enthusiasm in the dog. In addition, handlers may give repeated verbal commands and/or hand signals at any time, and as often as desired or needed throughout the performance to create a true working team of dog and handler. "Traditional Obedience is a great competitive sport. But that is exactly what it is, a competitive sport. It is designed to test the ability of the trainer to develop finely tuned skills in the dog to perform a series of exercises, and the ability of that dog to perform those exercises essentially on it's own under very artificial conditions. In performance of an exercise, the handler gives the dog a command, but the dog is then essentially on it's own to perform the exercise; the exercises are always the same and performed in exactly the same sequence. The success of working dog activities, such as those of search and rescue dogs, police and war dogs, drug dogs, etc., is dependent on the results of the dog and handler working as a team with the handler aiding the dog as necessary. For example, when using drug dogs or bomb dogs at an airport, the handler works with the dog, making sure that it checks all suitcases and shipping crates, while at the same time encouraging and praising the dog to keep working with enthusiasm. This is what I think of as working as a team. Precision in the mechanics of the dog performing the task is not of great importance. It does not matter if the dog sits perfectly straight or slightly crooked when indicating the presence of illegal drugs. It is only important that the dog detect the drugs and indicate where they are by sitting in front of the suitcase, shipping box, etc. Each day the travel bags or shipping crates are different. Even the location of where the dog is sent to work may be different. "What I have attempted to do in the development of Rally Obedience is to create a blend of the Rally concept with traditional Obedience by allowing the handler to continuously interact with the dog as in the examples just cited, but also to judge the ability of the team to perform the exercises within a certain level of accuracy for the purposes of evaluating the performance. I believe that de-emphasizing the precision required in the performance to avoid 1/2 point deductions as in traditional Obedience helps in providing an atmosphere for a more relaxed performance in which the dog and handler will work with greater enthusiasm and find a greater level of enjoyment. I also believe that it will create a more level playing field among the different breeds and the physical abilities of the handlers, while maintaining a valid assessment of the essential aspects of the performance." Since it's not listed as something not allowed, and past practice indicates acceptance, and since Roger Ayres at the Rally Seminar was encouraging handlers to use this tool, it must be considered as an allowable practice. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Maybe I'm too literal but I believe the original question had to do with signs 41 & 42 and guiding to front with hands without moving feet, in Excellent. The rule below from Section 3 under CLASSES in the AKC Non Reg Rally Excellent Class: Para 2., Unlike the non-regular Rally Novice and Advanced classes, in Non Reg Rally Exc (abbreviated by me), ONLY VERBAL (in caps in the regs) encouragement to the dog is permitted. Hand signals are permitted, although handlers may not touch their dog or make any physical corrections. Now to my mind, this leaves Hand signals up to the judge as to (a) do I follow the rules of the Obed regs in defining this, or, (b) do I make up my own version of what hand signals are; i.e., as in guiding the dog with 2 hands to front. Roger also leaves a lot of scoring of these gray areas up to the judge's interpretation of the exercise, both in Rally and obedience. I choose to have the guidance of (a), following the rules as in the Obedience definition so I don't have to worry about everyone having a different interpretation. Hopefully this will be more clearly stated as other gray areas, once it becomes titling. ~~~~~ The Excellent level exercises are more challenging than the two previous levels, but at this time the ONLY difference listed is that handlers can no longer pat their legs or clap their hands. ~~~~~ Sorry, but I see this statement as untrue, according to the regs. Anyway, this is my opinion and interpretation. When Roger was here for our seminar, one question was about stepping back to do a finish. He said, at this time, he wouldn't deduct for this, but asked me, and I said I would. I believe a finish is a finish and should be a trained exercise for entering a class. He said, as the judge, my way is also correct. I deduct one pt for stepping back on a Finish. By the way, I don't train my dogs by stepping back for a finish; I train them by stepping forward to do a finish. Conceivably if you wouldn't mark someone stepping back to aid a finish, in the ring, then I'd also be correct to step forward to aid my dog to finish. Bet you never saw that done! LOL When I mentioned Training in the Ring, it was as a Handler error, that I would score it. Speaking of Training in the ring, I know that Deb mentioned this is such a plus in Rally. I do and say the same thing to my classes. I think as instructors and judges, we need to be more careful about saying this to "newbie" people who don't know/have the Obedience background that we do. What a brand new person to Rally or Obedience may perceive as 'training in the ring' could possibly carryover as being a correct performance, in their eyes, for later on. When I speak to classes about how exciting Rally is because you can train in the ring, I'm quick to tell them the difference between training for exercises in Rally using verbal, body language, and such, as opposed to redoing exercises in Obedience or making subtle changes that could be construed as training in the ring, in Obedience competition. When I talk about Training in the ring, in my mind, I'm saying I can Talk to the dog, do extra commands and signals, use lots of body language, pat my leg, jump up and down (my interpretation), etc. that I'm not permitted to do in Obedience. They, the students, have nothing to compare to and are learning only what I teach them to be correct. Is this like mud? Sometimes I have trouble conveying my meaning by the written word :-) Anyway, this is long enough, and I think it's good food for thought. Due to discrepancies like these, amongst the list, is why I'm sooooo very grateful we still have plenty of time to iron these rough edges out before titling.  
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