Rally - Guidebook Section VI - NQing and Incomplete vs. Incorrectly Performed/title

Section VI. NQing and Incomplete vs. Incorrectly Performed

(Portions of this Section are duplicated in Section III - Judging)

I think this may have been discussed before but I can't remember what the final consensus of opinion was. So here goes: Score sheet shows missed or incorrectly performed station as a 10 pt deduction. Incomplete performance, minimum requirements not met... is an NQ. Questions: If you miss a station you have an incomplete performance, so what is it - 10 pts or NQ? And what do they mean by minimum requirements not met? Is that a quick and dirty way of saying they got more than 30 pts deducted so you don't even add the score - just NQ them? All help appreciated because I KNOW my classes will be asking this question.

"A dog that uses a jump as an aid in going over, or knocks the bar off the upright must receive a NQ score". Of course 70 points is required to qualify for all levels as I read it.

Okay, so let's take these a few at a time.

1. Incomplete performance -- which should include missed station.
2. Minimum Requirements not met -- which would be busting on points, but could also be used for an odd circumstance which I haven't thought of yet. Not too likely that the team will bust on points, since deductions are mostly minor ones, but you never know.
3. Station not attempted -- to keep teams from deciding to skip a station that they have trouble with.
4. Consistently tight lead -- teams where the dog must be dragged from station to station, as is Obedience, should not qualify. This type of performance does not represent our sport well, especially considering all the help we can give them.
5. Substantially out of position -- This one needs some discussion. How far OUT OF POSITION should a dog be to bust?
6. Not staying on the Honor exercise -- pretty clear, and it will be monitored by a steward so the Judge's attention can stay on the team working.
7. Dog Unmanageable -- for the dog that is out of control and the handler cannot regain control. Some examples would be useful, such as the dog that takes off and runs laps, playing "keep away."
8. Eliminates in the ring -- also pretty clear.
9. Knocks the bar off the uprights or uses the jump as an aid in going over -- possible, but with jumps based on 3/4 the height of the dog I don't think we'll see this one often.

Re #1. Incomplete performance -- which should include missed station. Got a question on this one. If a person comes to a halt - call dog front - finish left/right and instead of having their dog sit at the finish, they start heeling immediately. Would this be considered an incomplete performance or incorrectly performed exercise? At what point do you differentiate? What other exercises might contribute to this confusion? I haven't checked them out, just pulled that out of the hat.

You're right. I find this a little confusing and ambiguous as well.

Re #5. Substantially out of position -- This one needs some discussion. How far OUT OF POSITION should a dog be to bust? I can visualize several instances: Dog heeling sideways in front of the handler (this also interferes with the handler's movement). Dog more than a foot away from handler's left side. Dog more than a foot behind handler (I'm lousy on determining distance so I would look to see if the handler could stretch his/her arm back and touch the nose of the dog - that's serious lagging). If more than half the dog (say the loin forward) is in front of the handler - major forging. Dog heeling on right side.

Re #7. Dog Unmanageable -- for the dog that is out of control and the handler cannot regain control. Some examples would be useful, such as the dog that takes off and runs laps, playing "keep away." For a dog on-lead: one who consistently bounces all around playing - in front, alongside, behind and who consistently interferes with the handler's movement because of incorrect position. To me, that's unmanageable not just out of position.

Excellent point and a good one to remember.

Re #7. Dog Unmanageable -- for the dog that is out of control and the handler cannot get control. How about this one -- recently at an Obedience trial in Novice B, there was a Doberman who, on the fast (and at other times during the pattern) was biting the handler's leg and pants in his enthusiasm. The dog got major deductions, but DID qualify in Obedience. Should the dog qualify in Rally?

My personal opinion would be, if they try to execute the exercise but get it wrong, it's incorrectly performed exercise and 10 points. There MAY be other applications for this, but I think of Incomplete performance as missing a station or skipping a station, not "getting part of the exercise incorrect". If someone DID attempt an exercise, but skipped half of what was required, how would you Judge intent? You couldn't know if they skipped it because the dog couldn't do it, or if they just got confused. Any other input on this?

Since Rally is supposed to be a more "forgiving" sport, I'm not sure I would NQ a dog for most of what you describe. In fact, my first Boxer qualified in Novice Obedience doing MOST of what you just described. LOL The general rule in Classic Obedience is that if the dog is in RELATIVE heel position for at least half the performance, they qualify. If the dog is a couple of dog lengths back the whole time, no way, or if they leave and wander about the ring it would be an NQ. Dogs "out of position" are covered under the 1 point deductions for forge, lag, wide, or wrong side. Personally, I would not NQ a dog that made those mistakes occasionally during their run.

I doubt I would NQ - you didn't ask what I would do just what I would consider way out of heeling position. : - ) No, I'd take significant points off if the dog were *consistently* this badly out of position and the owner could not get the dog back into some semblance of heel. They might even NQ on points off for all I know, but I'm really not tough. And with Kandee, I hardly have high expectations of others' dogs when my own dog is known for rather *inventive* obedience maneuvers of her own. LOL But, in case anyone ever thinks of putting me on the left side of their judge's book : - ), I don't plan on becoming a judge.

Okay, so here are some of the things I have seen dogs do in Classic Obedience lately, that have STILL QUALIFIED to earn a leg:

1. Dog wanders away from heel position to check out the crowd at ringside, comes back with extra command, sloppy performance overall.
2. Dog heeled slightly lagged the whole time, and crossed to the right side for part of the exercise.
3. Dog stopped on part of the figure 8 and hander made one loop alone before dog caught up with extra command.
4. Dog seriously FORGED for the whole performance and sat in front when stopped.
5. ALMOST no sits at all during the whole heeling pattern.
6. Dog chewed on handler's arm/leg/pants multiple times during pattern.
7. Dog walked in a circle around handler one or more times before sitting in front of handler on halts.
8. Dog leaned on handler almost the whole performance, both heeling and on halts.

Those are only a FEW examples of what the dog can do, depending on the Judge and the severity of the errors, and STILL QUALIFY in Obedience. So, just how picky DO we want to be in Rally? Even in the Utility ring: Recently while going for our second UD leg on the Signal Exercise -- when we started and I gave the hand signal, the dog mistook the signal for a STAND command. She stood and I was heeling alone! When I saw her stop, I gave a verbal command to heel. I lost 3 points for her stopping and 5 points for the verbal command, but we qualified and earned the leg. The heeling in the "SIGNAL" exercise is not a 'principal part' of the exercise -- the stand, down, sit, and come by signals only are! So, heeling between stations in Rally should not be a principal part of the exercise, although it is part of the performance. Would love to hear other points of view on this.

Most of those situations don't get a dog NQed in regular obedience so shouldn't NQ in Rally. I've seen dogs more than 6 feet from the handler qualify (just barely). I would think substantially out of position would mean a dog who was several feet from the handler. It is hard to see how a dog this far out of position would actually be able to do the exercises though. I think the dog who was this detached would also be getting enough 10 point deductions to NQ on that alone.

"Doberman who, on the fast (and at other times during the pattern) was biting the handler's leg and pants in his enthusiasm. The dog got major deductions, but DID qualify in Obedience. Should the dog qualify in Rally?" I would say yes. It was not out of control the entire time in the ring and was not really unmanageable - just enthusiastic. I, too, would take points off but would not NQ a dog for this. The herding breeds are notorious for nipping while heeling fast.

I've seen several Corgis herd their handlers around the Obedience ring nipping and barking all the way. It's a hoot to watch, but they have not qualified. If the dog interferes with the handler's forward motion, points should be deducted. If it occurs throughout the entire performance, the dog is not under control and should not qualify.

Dogs "out of position" are covered under the 1 point deductions for forge, lag, wide, or wrong side. Personally, I would not NQ a dog that made those mistakes occasionally during their run.

Nor would I.

If someone DID attempt an exercise, but skipped half of what was required, how would you Judge intent? You couldn't know if they skipped it because the dog> couldn't do it, or if they just got confused. Any other input on this?

So, heeling between stations in Rally should not be a principal part of the exercise, although it is part of the performance. Rally IS one long heeling pattern with some turns in different directions and a few stops to call the dog to front or down, but almost totally, the dog is heeling. It doesn't have to be as precise as traditional obedience, although, by some of your descriptions of what has qualified in traditional obedience, that doesn't have to be very precise either, but since Rally is one continuous performance, in heeling, where exactly, does each exercise begin and end?

Having seen and/or experienced some of those myself, I will personally testify, that yes, you can qualify. And my dog did it under one of the toughest judges out there. Lagged the entire performance about 1 foot behind, and not one single sit. Not one. Earned a 170-1/2 score for his efforts. I later spoke to the judge and expressed my surprise at the green ribbon. (I have been doing this "dog thing" awhile....not normally with such a poor performance, but hey, sometimes it's a bad hair day!) Her reply: your dog did the principal part of each exercise (not well, mind you!) and worked continually with you at all times, even though worried and lagging. He made every turn, stood beside me at every halt, sped up, slowed down. (maintained 1 foot lag through out...hmmm. Wonder what rule book my dog read!)

I also attended an AKC judging seminar, where basically this same philosophy was expressed. There is a point where you stop judging points off and begin to judge minimum requirements met. I would actually consider her position statements as being the point I would begin to DEDUCT points for out of position. Rally does not require precise heel position - just loose leash, left side and teamwork. Will it earn you a placement? Not likely. Should it earn you a title? You bet. Why? In my opinion, you could not go through an average neighborhood and randomly choose an average family dog (no matter how "nice" and well mannered) and take it to a dog show and earn a 170-1/2 score (1 ft lag and no sits included). Why? It has not had the training and practice to accomplish even this in a distracting, new, nervous handler situation. It COULD maybe earn a CGC award. And when you get to Open and Utility - if the dog could do those exercises as a "random" selection entry - you didn't choose an average family dog! Rally should require more training and a more precise performance than the CGC (CGC doesn't even require being on the left side!) ...but certainly not the expertise of the traditional obedience ring to qualify. Just my .02 worth! :-)))

Incorrect or Incomplete? Just a thought. The example given was Halt; call dog front, finish left/right (and halt) #41, 42. If the team did not do the last halt it would be incomplete, all parts of the exercise not performed. If the dog finished the wrong way, IE: left instead of right, it would be incorrect. My students seem to have more problems sorting out the three call front and finish exercises than anything else.

Actually, they are completely different things. All of what you described would be "incorrect performance" which is a 10 point deduction. To me, incomplete performance is reserved for missing a station, or if the handler or dog became ill and had to leave the ring. If the handler attempts the station but does the exercise incorrectly in any way, either by adding, wrong sequence, or leaving out part, that's still incorrect performance of the EXERCISE, and only points versus an NQ. Incomplete PERFORMANCE relates to the whole run, not a station, and would be an NQ. Any other input on this one?

I agree. Incomplete would be not finishing the COURSE for some reason.

Can you touch your dog between stations, i.e., petting for praise? Like praising between exercises in obedience? Or can you not touch your dog throughout the entire course? Just wanted to clarify....I'm so excited about talking, clapping, patting legs, etc., that I want to make sure what we're *not* allowed to do!!

The regs state you cannot touch your dog. I've taken that to mean you can't do a head-pat for praise - it would be an NQ. Good question and one nobody has addressed yet.

The AKC seminar said "no touching". I think since it is sort of one, big, long, flowing exercise. You can sure do everything else - you can promise "hugs" at the end.

A couple of incorrect performance Stations and a couple of errors, and you won't have enough points to qualify. While it is possible that "green" handlers might have trouble with some stations, if you don't at least TRY to do each one, you should not qualify. If you know your dog won't down, or stand and you intentionally skip a station, it's now an NQ. If you give it your best shot and the dog can't do it, its 10 points, which either puts you WAY out of any chance for placements, or possibly loses enough points for you to NQ, depending on the other errors you get. Again, this is NOT traditional Obedience, and we're trying to be a little more "forgiving" for Newbies. This change is from handlers being "allowed" to skip 2 stations and still qualify.

If the Judge sees a new handler "miss" a station honestly, there's no reason the Judge cannot call it to their attention, otherwise, they might NQ as an honest mistake. Missed or skipped stations -- 10 points each.

I'm wondering if anyone has discussed the idea of an exhibitor being able to excuse him or herself from the rally ring if they desire. I had this situation come up last Sunday when I was participating in a rally trial. My younger dog decided that no matter how much I cheered, jumped, clapped, begged and pleaded with him, he was not going to do that course with me. So, at station #3, I finally turned to the judge and said, "We're through" and we left the ring. It occurred to me that I don't remember seeing anything about this situation in the new AKC regulations and so I'm wondering if this has been addressed. For the novice and advanced levels, it would seem to me this wouldn't be much of a problem, but at the excellent level, if an exhibitor chooses to leave the course early, would they be required to come back for the "honor" portion. Or could they dismiss themselves from that as well? Just curious how others feel.

Kristine, this HAS been addressed, and YES, you will be able to ask the Judge to be excused, and Judges are instructed by the guidelines, which are on the web site, to comply.

If a dog is merely having a less than glorious day, it's bad sportsmanship to withdraw once in the ring. NQing on one exercise is certainly not a reason to withdraw, unless the dog is truly out of control, begins to limp, or becomes obviously ill... to any experienced dog owner.

I was just reading the rules for Rally at the APDT site and see that they allow both food as a reward and brief touching after completion of an exercise provided it doesn't interfere with the flow. Is this allowed with AKC Rally?

No touching the dog, no corrections, no cookies or toys are allowed in any performance ring in AKC. Rally regs: "Unlimited communication from the handler to the dog is to be encouraged and not penalized. Unless otherwise specified in these regulations, handlers are permitted to talk, praise, encourage, clap their hands, pat their legs, or use any verbal means of encouragement. Handlers may not touch their dog or make physical corrections. At any time during the performance, loud or harsh commands or intimidating signals will be penalized." I don't know where the food/toy rule is; maybe it's in the obedience regs instead of the rally regs.

It's in the Rally Rules: 8. Qualifying performance. (For future information - not used currently as a non-regular class.) A qualifying score in the judge's book is his or her certification that the dog has performed all the required exercises according to The American Kennel Club Rally Regulations and justifies the awarding of the Rally title associated with the particular class. A qualifying score must never be awarded to a dog whose performance has not met the minimum requirements, shows fear or resentment, or that relieves itself at any time while in the ring for judging. A handler who carries or offers food or motivational items in the ring, or disciplines or abuses his or her dog in the ring must receive a non-qualifying (NQ) score.

For more information e-mail us

Home ~~ History ~~ AKC ~~ UKC ~~ WWKC ~~ APDT ~~ Links