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July 2005 - session 4 A long-winded conversation about friends, research and medieval Polish reenactors ... Ran: This is very interesting indeed. Sometimes when you think you are out there all alone, along come friends who innundate you with all sort of help. Literally! Philip Garcia, who's a keen observer of this project and Polish winged hussar enthusiast sent me a whole bunch of photos he recently took of Rik Fox, polish reenactor, at the Fort MacArthur Living History Events. And prior to that, he shared withh me photographs taken again of Rik's magnificent winged hussar at the same event. What a swell guy he is. Thanks Philip! Philip: Your very welcome RAN! I hope you got them all you need! I mentioned to them in the Camp about your 1/6 project and Ron's and they were so excited and if it is OK for me to email them your link of your Work-In-Progress of the Polish Winged Hussar. Oh yes, I forgot to mention I was told by the Polish winged Hussar reenactor RIK FOX that OSPREY will be releasing a NEW book soon on the POLISH WINGED HUSSAR as he will be a techincal consultant on this book. Ran: These are awesome stuff! I sincerely hope we do these guys justice....
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Reenactor Rik Fox strikes a pose for Philip Garcia in his hussaria outfit at the Fort MacArthur Living History Events, 2005. The photo at extreme top left was taken in 2004. According to Rik, more accurate wing struts have replaced the one in the photo. More photos are available at: POLISH NOBILITY COMMONWEALTH GUILD http://photos.yahoo.com/wngdhussr |
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Ron: Wow now that's some good research material. Man! Oh Man what a cool friend you have to do all that. Cool! I still can't get over the great photos. Especially like that flintlock (which you didm't upload!). We'll have to send that pic to LG and see what he says about it. It's beautiful. Plus being a history buff he'll appreciate that armor. I wonder why the cuirass seems to have the waist bands overlap upside down? You'd think they'd be the other way like the one I was working from. I guess there's a reason for that or it doesn't matter. Anyway, back to the project... Ran, thanks, those weapons pixs you sent me, they will work just fine. There's also a close up of a hussar sword hilt on the cover of the DVD. It is perfect for our project. I really like that Hungarian sword. Hey, I talked to LG2 on Chat tonight. He's got some 1/6 Flintlock trigger and pan casts that he made and is going to send me some, free. He asked if you needed any too? They're real nice and they will work for pistols. I told him I'd ask if you wanted any. I did tell him you had the SST ones but you weren't sure if they were the right size. Anyway he's made 1/1's and so he knows all about old weapons cause he's also a real Mountain Man. I told him 17th century. He said they would work even for Spanish Conquistador weapons. Cool. Anyway we had a pretty good chat all about Mountain Men and Flintlocks and Bows and arrows. LG2 is a pretty good artist. He said if we had any questions about flintlocks or wheel locks that he'd be happy to let us know. Ran: That's great! I could do with some help, this era is definitely not my area of expertise. And now that you've mentioned it, I actually have a wish to make the flintlock stock carved out of wood. Ron: Well I'm glad I mentioned that to you then. Wood huh? Sounds interesting. Ran: What are you doing for the garments? Ron: Oh man, I got a lot of cool material at the fabric store. I should have sent you some. Blood Red velvet with tiny gold thread designs, Some green shiny stuff with curly Q's, a couple metalic gold and silver material and lots of gold fancy border ribbon. I got a couple feet of each. I should have sent you some, but I wasn't thinking that far ahead. I know....you want pix's. But then you probably have all those eastern Chinese silk design fabric stores that would be perfect too, just laying around all over Singapore. LOL BTW, I\I'm also thinking I'll be using those German riding boots I
got from Ops Gear a while back. They're nice but Black. And I
guess they should be Tan instead of black eh? More of period color
don't you think? Most pix I've seen, show them with tan boots.
Are you doing the scale skirt? Ran: The boots have to be light yellowish tan, it was considered de riguer for Polish nobels. I think the scale skirt is going to be tough and time consuming. The metal model of my Winged Hussar has scale skirt and that's where I got the idea. I might go with simulated chainmail - Dragon's Viking has a very nice simulated chainmail suit. Ron: Well Here's the pics. Note the wings are done and on. Those are real feathers I worked on and cut down and painted after I got the skirt finished yesterday I decided to give the wings a try and just got them assembled today. Here's a side view. And a close up. I actually used a piece of cardboard for the frame cause it has those little slots the were perfect to glue the feathers in. Then I used wire to reinforce it and trimmed it with metal tape and added a bead of gold trim. So they're real sturdy. |
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Ron: Here's the spurs I scratched from wire and foil. And here's the boots and the Lower arm guards and a few pices of leather straps with buckles. I was so busy trying to get the wings done up that I didn't have time to finish up the new head shots but I'll get to them done by tomorrow.
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Ran: Regarding customising that animal skin, there’s this plastic panther I bought which I thought of beheading and joining to the fabric you sent me, don't know how successful that will be. Ron: It should work for you. I used super glue for the Beach Red fotostory rat and it worked pretty good. Ran: ...Shouldn't be a problem for you to find similar kiddy zoo animals over in Utah huh? Ron: I'll have a look see around this weekend. Never thought of that yet. LOL May even use the paws if they have claws. That would be good. Thanks. Been puttin a little time in on my Hussar. Finished up the headsculpt.
I tried a few times with different textures of steel wool but
wasn't real happy with the final results so I sculpted the hair
and mustache and I like it a lot better. Ran: 'm way behind you. Just finished doing the feathers, glueing them to the wing frames. Whew, that's quite a job - working with feathers that is. The craftshop ran out of white feathers but had plenty of colour-dyed ones, I had no choice but to get the black dyed ones. I used bass wood for the wing struts. Now I need a rest. Ron: That's the same thing I said to myself when I did the feathers. Now you really know what I mean!
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| Ran: Well, here's my Polish hero. Note he's now posessing ears. LOL. Sculpted them out of the same air-dry clay and then sanded and glue them down. I sculpted him a black furred Hungarian cap - both cap and spurs were based on the Angus McBride illustrations from Richard Brezezinski's Polish Armies 1569 - 1696, published by Osprey. | |||||||||||||||
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Ran: Greetings Rik, Welcome on board and thanks for your thoughts! Rik: The pleasure is mine. If I can be of assistance I will do
what I can to help. Because little is known about the winged husars,
being of Polish ancestry, it is my life's work in representing
them in their glory. So, I (and a small group of others) here,
in the U.S. set about to try to get the record straight, and get
the word out there. I can also turn you on to other re-enactors
who are also doing what I do as a winged hussar re-enactor. In
the meantime, here's some links to check out from some of our
past highlights, lots of thumbnail pics to click on... Formed in late 1999, SULIGOWSKI'S REGIMENT of the POLISH COMMONWEALTH is the first "Officially Recognized" representation of the mighty and spectacular portrayal of 16th-17th century "Renaissance/Baroque-era" European history, by numerous Polish-American organizations for their unceasing and noble contributions to 'Raising Polish Historic Awareness', as well as the first organization of its kind in U.S. History (as far as current research has shown). The primary focus of Suligowski's Regiment of the Polish Commonwealth, is on that of the Polish military forces of the era, specifically the legendary Polish Winged Hussars which has been written as?The most formidable, awesome, spectacular and fearsome cavalry units to sweep out of central Europe, let alone the world. Although unknown to most of today's equestrian experts, the Polish Hussar cavalry and fighting tactics, (which, pre-dates "English and Western" riding by approximately three centuries), have paved the way for everything we know of, in today's equestrian studies. So, anything I can do to help you guys, let me know... Ran: I hope we can count on you and your vast knowledge, practical experience and expertise to be our project consultant. Rik: I am extremely flattered to be considered an expert. Although there are a few others out there in the world, like in Poland, such as Dr. Zdislaw Zygulski who are far more well-versed in the history of the husaria, I only do what I can to help raise Polish Historical awareness. Ran: Many thanks. Do let us know where we went wrong... I'm sure there are many mistakes we've made. Rik: Ok, I read thru all the info on both of the links of your conversation with Ron, and there's some important facts that will cause you guys some dismay, as, Ron'll need to completely scratch what he has done, and start over, as there's some glaring errors so far. Winged helmets are "Strictly" 18th Century, and *Not* 17th Century. The 17t C. winged hussars never wore 18th C. winged helmets! And, it's not a "Rich nobleman's helmet for sure", all nobles were considered equal. Richer helmets were more Eastern-looking, and *not* winged. winged helmets were standard issue to all cavalry of the line troops of the 18th C. only. So, BIG mistake there. Also, the 'chest discs' as referred to were not as widely worn as commonly thought of, although they were popular, not all husaria wore them, as individual tastes dictated what each wore. The brass knights cross in the center of the chest, was probably far more common. The 'discs': over the left side over the heart, was the image of the Virgin Mary standing over a crescent moon, the right side was a rounded knights cross. Another BIG Glaring Error: The details of the 'discs' (brass medallions) on the breastplates are all *Wrong*! As shown, so far, Ron, you will need to scrap them completely and re-do them from scratch. I can supply closer up images of what they look like. Left as is, will look all wrong. Another glaring error: The details of the shoulder armor (Pauldrons) at the elbow-point are wrong and need to be scrapped and started over. The last lame at the elbow had a slight contouring curve lower in back, and higher in front as it contoured over the elbow. Thigh armor (Tassets) were not worn very much, this was added by many painters of the 19th Century. Tassets would get in the way of the tunics. And the 18th C, helmets were not worn with 17th C. armor as shown so far. Some clarification on the equipment mentioned in the conversation: Lances were 18 to 20 feet in length, not 15, although the length was guaged depending on what the opposing army had out front, by way of pikes. The pistols used by the husaria were matchlocks, however, flintlocks were "just" becoming into use as well. Your horse bridles can be made of small strips of actual leather overlaid with small brass ornamentation and tiny red pinheads to simulate precious gems. Only the Breastplates of the cuirass were moveable not the backplate, the front plates were based off of the roman'Italian 'anima' type armor, ergo, 'moveable or flexable'. Hussar armor breastplates were actually able to withstand a musketball from at least 20 paces, the backplates were musket-ball proof. Hoffman had to show the Cossacks musketfire hitting 'something' to show the effect of firing the muskets. If anything, the musketba innaccurate as they were, most likely struck the soft areas where there was no armor, like the inner arms, and such. The Husaria boots Must be yellow and *just* cover the front of the knees, and be cut slightly lower behind the knees. Chainmail was a more common and practical use under the armor. Also the dialogue that the Cossacks used in the film Fire & Sword was Ukranian, not Russian. I have a newly home-meade horse blanket, and would be happy to share the pictures of it if you like, for an accurat eversion of one. I copied it from the one I saw at the "Land of the Winged Horseman" exhibit. I was granted special permission to photograph the exhibit for my research. The Hussar helmets were actually precursors to the modern 'polo' helmets, just add the lobster tail, cheekplates and face guard. And the boots were the precursors to modern western type boots. As for the 'Hussein-type' moustache, he could have added a slight up-curl to the tips to avoid the Hussein look. It would have made it a bit more authentic-looking. Polish historical advisors were brought on to the film too late and they couldn't prevent the wings from being worn. Husaria didn't always wear the wings. Technical error: the winged hussars have no backplates, only form-fitting brackets under their zhupans (tunic riding coats) and have criss-cross strapping). This was just to show the wearing of the romantic and glorious wings. A bad costuming move.If you want detail of Polish hussar armor, either I or a friend who makes hussar armor can show you what you need to know. I have photo links showing the armor pieces. The original Fire & Sword story in the book is about 3 inches thick. There were tons of more battles with the husaria and German mercenaries , but for budgetary reasons the film would have been as long as 6 hours like War & Peace. You HAVE to read the book, to get the whole picture. That's it so far, Ron, I hope you can attempt to correct the errors. And, most of all...Remember, I'm here to help! I can supply pictures he needs, just ask. (not forgetting due credits to the sources of the pictures taken from my website and other I can supply)... Cheers, Rik "Before the beginning of great brilliance, there must be chaos. Before a brilliant person begins something great, they must look foolish to the crowd." ---I Ching--- Ron: Well I'm amazed with Riks Knowledge. We could use someone like that for sure. I don't know if we really intended to be that accurate cause all we had was what we gleaned off the web. >"Before the beginning of great brilliance, there must be chaos. We can claim this saying now. Well and again when I sent you the emails with the pics I was showing you what I thought was cool examples I forgot when you put them in the blog in public on the net we should have given credit for these fine examples. But that's an easy thing to do now since Rik told us all the sources. So hopefully no harm done. Ran: That's one saying I''ll always remember! Rik: When I first saw this saying, I felt it fit perfectly as my mantra, in presenting the winged hussars to the U.S. And, speaking from experience, it truly, in some cases really fit. Some people were amazed at seeing a winged hussar impression close-up. Others laughed and came up with insensative, insulting comments. 6 of one, half-dozen of the other...Over the past 5 years, now, many, many people have been further...uh,mmmm...'educated', and now, when I over-hear people talking about 'this guy dressed in awesome-looking winged armor I saw at such-and-such event', I smile & think to myself..."It's working, it really is, word is spreading now"... Ron: But of course in the interest of accuracy for this project I will endeavor to persevere for the sake of the project. And will work with the upmost respect to finer details as far as I am able with proper reference. Anyway all the input we get from others is still great I just wish we had it all when we started. LOL And now we'll have to do a lot more studying before we do anything more. LOL. Ran: Well said and well taken! Rik: Forgive me if I came off too brusk in my original posting to you guys, it's hard to 'hear' the vocal tone on an internet screen. I was intending to help, but not in a rude way of speaking, I'd only like to see anyone so dedicated as yourselves to get the small stuff correct...;-) Ron: I humbly succumb and beg forgiveness to the past historical blunders made. And with the patient help of people like Rik, hopefully we can get it right. Rik: No need to go that far, lol ;-D))) For what you've accomplished so far, you guys are really, really good! As the Marines say "OUT-STANDING!" Ran: Okay... looks like I have to scrape Ron off the floor now! Rik: LOL!!!!! Ran: I have some questions for you Rik: is the Hungarian cap I sculpted okay for mid or late 17thCentury Polish costumes? Rik: Yes, looks very good! If you need something more exotic and
'noble' you can look here for examples of the hats I make for
our re-enactments: http://photos.yahoo.com/pulkownik_hussar Ran: Likewise the spurs - the illustrated references I got them from (the Opsprey book - Polish Armies Part 1) state them as circa early 17th century or 1605 to be exact. Question: were they still used in the mid to latter part of the century? Rik: Yes, the spurs look ok. Some were very long-pointed rowels, and some were shorter, depending on your need at the time. There's some very good examples in Anna Wasilkowska's book "Husaria the winged horesemen", with really long shanks and long pointed wheels (rowels). (Anna's surname is pronounced Va-sil-kohv-skah). Ran: What about the kinds of stirrups? Which style would you recommend? Rik: The types that the Poles adapted from the Turks. Nowadays,
in equestrian circles they are referred to as 'endurance saddles'
the types of stirrups found on those saddles are exact decendants
of the ones used by the Poles and Turks. Makes sense, back then,
they spend days, weeks in the saddles, hence 'endurance'. Look
at the color plate Ran: Thanks Rik, that really cleared up some of my doubts when working on the saddle tack. Armand sent me a very nice casting of his McClellan saddle but I am going to keep this beauty for some other project and instead scratchbuild a Turkish endurance saddle. I feel it would be a waste to convert the McClellan into the latter. My grateful thanks to you, Armand. Armand: Hey, buddy. Don't even mention that package. I feel like a total boob for being so late with it, and only wish it could have been more. I promised it long ago and am so sorry for being late with it. Ran: Nah... you're no boob, total boobs 's us! LOL
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