The following is the discussion that took place on #D/s_scene on Mar 23, 1999. Please remember, the views shared are views of individuals. Views that support their choice of a lifestyle. Research and discussions are the best way to form your own views.

Session Start: Tue Mar 23 17:35:44 1999
[17:35] *** Now talking in #D/s_scene
[17:35] *** Topic is 'Channel Discussion Tuesday March 23, 1999 ---> Slavery vs. Submission (http://members.tripod.com/D_s_scene/)'

Rules of #D/s_scene Discussions

Welcome to the first discussion in #D/s_scene. The topic tonight will be the differences between being a submissive and being a slave. All input is welcome. This channel does not inhibit freedom of speech but does require members to respect others and keep nasty remarks to themselves or to private messages.

We shall try to start with an open forum. Speak as you like and will. Try not to shout others down as they have as much to contribute to the discussion as you do

1 - This is to be a Discussion. Personal attacks will not be tolerated.

2 - This first discussion shall be moderated and voice shall be be required to participate.

3 - Respect shall be shown to ALL participants, be they D/D/M/M, or sub/slave.

4 - If a D/D/M/M wishes that her/his sub/slave not participate that shall be respected by others in the Discussion.

5 - Name-calling will not be allowed. Though saying some ones ideas are silly or dumb is not calling that person silly or dumb. But saying some one is dumb for their thoughts or ideas is a personal attack and will be dealt with by de-voicing

6 - This is a discussion. If you have something to say then please say it. Don't just shrug or whine.

7 - Please be patient. This is our first Discussion and will take some fine-tuning.

<PMolur[d]> Well late comers can join in as they like. Please take a few moments to read the rules and lets see if we can do this
<wild{V_P}> what is the difference to you Capt?
<PMolur[d]> At least to me the difference in submission is one of interaction between the Dominate and the submissive, and how far the two wish to deal with there relationship
<naia> to this girl the difference is only one between a Master and His girl... submission is always there but deepens into a slavegirl as the relationship deepens
<rumpusMT> The Dom/Dommes have control and power but they need to understand that it is the sub that bestows the power to them thus both have power
<PMolur[d]> That is true in all D/s relations, even vanilla relations
<rumpusMT> without one the other does not exist
<PMolur[d]> That runs together with the level of the submission.
<naia> a Gor slave is seen as very different...she is a slave to ALL...not just her Master...the only choice that she had..was to choose to be a slave...
<rumpusMT> I sub very well, but a slave I could never be
<PMolur[d]> No, naia, she does not even have that choice on Gor
<wild{V_P}> and yet that can cause problems outside of Gor... because the Masters don't feel the necessity to control another's slave
<PMolur[d]> But this is not Gor and Gor is fictional as it is. What about slavery here between consenting adults?
<rumpusMT> that is why in some channels I offend the Dom/Dommes. I serve only one Mistress
<PMolur[d]> That is all you need to serve rumpus. but others need to serve more then one.
<rumpusMT> that is the difference, a slave is total, a sub is voluntary, a sub does it for his Domme and himself
<PMolur[d]> You can still be a sub serving many D/D/M/M. and the same with a slave, but only serving one
<{P_M}dacy> well, I see different people referring to serving.. and I am a little confused.. As a hostess with someone in my home.. I serve and make sure they are comfortable. What is the meaning of serving as we are talking... as far as being hospitable to the people that are around.. There is no problem to serve them and make them feel welcome..... But.. If we are talking serving in a sexual manner, then I would agree with rumpus.. I will serve only one in a sexual manner
<HaZoR> serving others....in either food or drink, deed or in a sexual way, as per their Master
<rumpusMT> if My Mistress ordered it I would serve another
<PMolur[d]> Serving as a host or hostess is a different matter. This is serving as a means of relating to a person on an intimate level. Namely personal relationships
<PMolur[d]> rumpus, but to what point?
<rumpusMT> depends
<rumpusMT> I trust my Mistress completely
<PMolur[d]> What do you base that point on?
<rumpusMT> I would do whatever she wished
<HaZoR> really rumpus?
<rumpusMT> yes sir
<PMolur[d]> But also, at what point does one say they are slave or sub?
<rumpusMT> MstrsTori knows me and knows what I am capable of. When I went to be that Mistress slave for 6 months. I was put through things I never thought, but I as a good sub did as asked and without question
<PMolur[d]> Discussing rumpus being a good sub for a Mistress who wanted a sub
<rumpusMT> they wanted to know if I would serve another if you so ordered it
<HaZoR> I don't know how much you covered yet, but to me a slave is owned as per the dictionary, a sub is not....all slaves are subs but not all subs are slaves
<PMolur[d]> But how is a slaved owned? If they can refuse the collar at a time of their choosing?
<{P_M}dacy> Isn't there a formal legal ceremony where a person can refuse all there rights and become a slave.. That is not reversible?
<HaZoR> we are talking about D/s its all about consent. when someone consents to being owned either indefinitely or under a time contract...the fact remains she is own
<rumpusMT> I would do whatever my Mistress wished of me but only to her
<HaZoR> would you quit your job rumpus?
<rumpusMT> if she wished me to serve another I would honor her
<rumpusMT> yes
<HaZoR> then i applaud you
<rumpusMT> I am totally her sub Sir
<rumpusMT> thank you
<MstrsTori> I'm here :)
<rumpusMT> BUT only to her Sir
<HaZoR> I have a problem when a slave says she will do anything and then when its asked even in jest she/he will back out
<HaZoR> not it...he or she...sorry
<MstrsTori> The way that I have learned, is a slave has no voice. She/he can not have a say as to what goes on, unless it is so directed by the Master/Mistress
<HaZoR> that is true Tori
<Mr1> if that be the case, I don't want a slave
<`naia> this girl did not start out as her Master's slave but she grew into that willingly through the deepening of the relationship... it is up to the Master as to her input and feedback that He wishes...each journey that T/two take is up to them
<Mr1> I would prefer her to be able to think and have input at any given time
<{P_M}dacy> the submissive is not owned but possessed
<HaZoR> but what you have to understand is there are levels of submission/slavery, and limits have been established in many cases before such a commitment
<MstrsTori> A sub, has a voice. she/he is expected to give their opinions respectively, and has the right to say "no", and that is that. Unless her/his Master/Mistress can be otherwise convincing *WEG*
<Mr1> that may hold true naia
<rumpusMT> well said Mam
<HaZoR> also slavery is in 20th century is by choice
<Mr1> but I'm not about to have a puppet
<`naia> this one does not know of any Master that wishes a puppet, or a dead fish..she has not met a One that wishes that in a girl
<PMolur[d]> What is the defining line between slave and submissive? As we are speaking here?
<rumpusMT> I find my Mistress enjoys my playfulness and in turn allows me some freedom because of it
<MstrsTori> The kama Sutra teaches us, that a slave is a Master in disguise.
<rumpusMT> if she wished I would be quiet and serve all...by doing that I would be serving her...which is what I wish to do...honor my Mistress
<rumpusMT> well said Mistress!
<HaZoR> in my view its ownership...there has to be something of authority to define what a slave is.... If we all have different meanings of what it is, then we will never define it....and I have seen so many discussions on this topic, and the end result is still debatable
<wild{V_P}> yes, a slave since has no voice or limited one.. uses other venues to get her point across
<rumpusMT> actually HaZor Sir I feel it is up to each Dom/Domme sub/slave relationship to decide their own rules
<HaZoR> the bible teaches that a slave is simply a slave in the simplest form, she has no choice once she commits
<rumpusMT> thus acquiring a state of bliss between the two
<PMolur[d]> But where do you separate the difference between the slave and the sub?
<MstrsTori> Look at the word slave...what does it bring to mind? Does a slave tell a Master/Mistress no? Did the Jews have a say as to how many temples they would build for the pharaohs? Did the slaves have a choice in the southern states to either do work the Master/Mistress set before them or sip tea on their porch?
<rumpusMT> others are of no consequence when it comes to that relationship
<PMolur[d]> But that was a slavery of a different sort. Though it does touch along many lines.
<HaZoR> you are correct Tori, except in the jubilee year when all Israelite slaves were set free or if an Israelite sold themselves into slavery
<rumpusMT> I serve only one....it is her power to have me serve others...and only hers
<MstrsTori> What does submissive mean? Does it mean that one has the right to submit to another? Or does the submitting partner have no say if they submit?
<`naia> 2. The state of being submissive; acknowledgment of inferiority or dependence; humble or suppliant behavior; meekness; resignation.
<PMolur[d]> But the slave in a D/s relationship has chosen to build, or serve, or the like
[<wild{V_P}> submission means that I submit my needs and desires below the needs and desires of My Master
<MstrsTori> Yes...a bondservant and they gave up their right to any rights while under contract.
<rumpusMT> like I said earlier the Dom/Domme has all the power but it is the slave/sub who bestows that power thus the two are one
<HaZoR> exactly Tori
<{P_M}dacy> Webster's defines submission in the following terms; "The state or quality of being submissive; acknowledgment of inferiority or dependence; humble or suppliant behavior; meekness; resignation; obedience."
<MstrsTori> They have chosen to give up all rights. a sub does not
<HaZoR> then by definition a sub could not be owned, only a slave is owned
<{P_M}dacy> Webster's defines slave in the following terms;" A bond servant divested of all freedom and personal rights; a human being who is owned by and wholly subject to the will of another, as by capture, purchase, or birth."
<jora> submission, according to Webster ... "To surrender to the authority, discretion or will of another
<MstrsTori> so a sub being "owned" is a lax in definition
* HaZoR nods to jora
<rumpusMT> I submit to my Mistress because she is worthy of it, not because she demanded it
<PMolur[d]> that is the difference between forced bondage and willing bondage
<jora> Webster's definition of slave; "A person who is bound in servitude as the property of a person or household. A person completely controlled by a dominating influence."
<HaZoR> yes and any human may give up his/her right to freedom of choice...hence slave
<rumpusMT> can I give an example of a true submissive?
<HaZoR> i like that phrase....Dominating influence
<MstrsTori> but to submit is totally different...The submissive can deny the Dominant whatever they desire to deny
<`naia> in submission the T/two can be balanced and equal only in that the goals equal into a relationship..they can never be identical or equal on any level
<Mr1> well a slave is almost demeaning in it's definition, making one less than it's respective "Owner"
<Macartt> people can also be subverted and/or forced into slavery.. or tricked, pie in the sky..
<PMolur[d]> But that type of slavery is not consensual. And is not what the discussion is about.
<Macartt> it is when they believe the lies.. PM
<PMolur[d]> Believe the lies?
<Macartt> anyway..
<PMolur[d]> Brain washing
<Macartt> to subvert you lie, etc.
<PMolur[d]> Again. the start of the relationship is not consensual
<HaZoR> on the contrary Mr1 to a woman who's slave belly has been set on fire, being a slave is being the most feminine she will ever feel, and the most esteemed
<Mr1> that's your interpretation, and you're welcome to it
<MstrsTori> dang
<HaZoR> naia
<PMolur[d]> Many do consider the submitted . male or female, one of the most beautiful forms of being
<rumpusMT> I wish Dom/Domes would understand the difference and not attack the subs who are not slaves
jora looks at Master HaZoR smiling , knowing what HE says is true..
<HaZoR> rumpus...who is attacking anyone we are just discussing the topic
<MstrsTori> Exactly rumpus!
<`naia> yes Master?
<HaZoR> i respect all subs/slaves
<rumpusMT> I meant like when a Dom/Domme demands a SIR or Ma'am from them
<HaZoR> if it weren't for a sub there would be no slave
<MstrsTori> Not now...Hazor...in channels..The Dom/mes are often taking subs to use when they do not ask permission first
<PMolur[d]> That is a different story. There should be some leeway, at times. But to the same extent the "grace" period should extend to the s/s and the D/M
<PMolur[d]> that is there right to be called that. we call you rumpus because that is your nick and wish to be addressed as such
<rumpusMT> if a problem is encountered with a sub the Dom/Domme should go to the Dom/Domme of that sub to express their problem and not degrade the sub themselves
<Macartt> respect is an earned thing rumpus
<rumpusMT> am I right?
<Mr1> I think so rumpy
* HaZoR thinks the discussion is headed in the wrong way
<rumpusMT> yes it is Macartt well said
{P_M}dacy thinks I am submissive.. And as my time with Master increases.. I feel the desire to be more submissive in all I do.. thoughts of him and what he desires are in my mind all the time
<`naia> MstrsTori Ma'am... that happens to all sub/slaves..this girl has her limits and is allowed to turn down any One..regardless whether she is a slavegirl
<PMolur[d]> To a point. The problem lies with the ability to address the problem at the point of contention
<{P_M}dacy> does this mean that I am moving from lighthearted sub to more serious sub to slave?
<`naia> it could be {P_M}dacy sis... smiles
<`naia> does that bother you?
<{P_M}dacy> and isn't all this a relative term in the terms of the sub/Master relationship
<PMolur[d]> dacy, you are being held back from moving to fast between the stages, as i see them
<{P_M}dacy> as each relationship sets its own boundries
<PMolur[d]> Yes
<{P_M}dacy> and grows within itself....Yes Master, I know you are making me go through the stages slow.. raising my desire to grow more and more each day
<rumpusMT> I know if Mistress wished me to do ANYTHING it would be done! ...I am hers..yet no others
<PMolur[d]> But you still are free to make several choices yourself
<rumpusMT> I am a total sub but only to her
<MstrsTori> naia, who gave you permission to set limits?
<Mr1> I tip my hat to you rumpy
<PMolur[d]> No offense to the next few statements M.Tori and rumpus, but you are a fine target
<rumpusMT> is that the difference
<rumpusMT> ??
<wild{V_P}> that doesn't mean that you are going from sub to slave dacy... I see them as separate.. Not a line from one to the other
<rumpusMT> fire away MOL
<PMolur[d]> You have set your limits with M.tori rumpus, and she respects them and will only push you so far
<`naia> this girls Master set her limits Ma'am
<rumpusMT> you are correct sir
<PMolur[d]> You feel that you would do anything for her that she asks, but at the same time she will not ask what she knows will be totally abhorrent to you
<rumpusMT> true but I honor her
<MstrsTori> That makes all the difference in the world naia..I was referring to unowned slaves.
<PMolur[d]> A slave would not have that choice once he/she has accepted a relationship dealing with that level of commitment
<rumpusMT> if she asked anything of me I would do it
<HaZoR> yes that would be irresponsible on her part PM
<Mr1> then by your definition HaZoR she can't be a true slave
<rumpusMT> for her I would service anybody
<HaZoR> with any Master/slave relationship, there is a great deal of responsibility that the Dom has
<PMolur[d]> No, she would not be a true slave at that time. she can still accept her commitment as she/he has stated
<Mr1> then she is a sub
<PMolur[d]> Also rumpus, to me at least, M.Tori honors you
<{P_M}dacy> Is HaZoR the only one in here who truly has slaves?.. the rest of the Dom/mes have subs?
<HaZoR> why? Because I would never command her to jump in front of a truck...that makes her not a slave??...is that what you mean
<rumpusMT> oh she does very much so PM
<PMolur[d]> No, a different level of submission. As there are different levels of submissives, there are different levels of slaves
<MstrsTori> rumpus, leave the channel.
<rumpusMT> as you wish
<PMolur[d]> For the time being. Tis nicer that way
<MstrsTori> as "I" wish not as "he" wishes
<jora> this girl believes that when a girl gives herself to her Master, with the consent, that she gives up consent, that she is very much slave .. yet, a very important issue would be trust... this girl would never have submitted herself completely to One she didn't trust..
<PMolur[d]> But that is a respect and honor you two have developed. I can do the same, to a lesser degree with dacy
<PMolur[d]> dacy and I have not reached that particular level in our relationship
<jora> this girl knows that she can trust her Master with her life .. and that He would never do anything to bring her harm .. pain maybe.. *g*.. but never true harm
<MstrsTori> Is respect and trust the true issue then?
<PMolur[d]> It is part of the issue
<Macartt> it is
<rumpusMT> perhaps a sub is a slave depending on the level of their commitment
<PMolur[d]> You need trust and respect in any relationship. D/s or vanilla, or any other type
<PMolur[d]> No
<HaZoR> there has to be some trust, then it grows
<PMolur[d]> You are totally committed to M.Tori, but not a slave
<MstrsTori> or is the difference owned or not owned?
<PMolur[d]> I have met slaves with much less commitment
<HaZoR> owned is the difference in my opinion
<PMolur[d]> hmmmm
<Mr1> what works for one doesn't reflect on all others
<Mr1> it's up to those involved
<PMolur[d]> Yes, Mr1. That is a true enough statement
<MstrsTori> Then what would be the difference between a D/s relationship and a vanilla relationship Mr1?
<Mr1> and to me personally having more than one sub/slave is a slap in the face to the other sub/slave....
<jora> Mr1, Sir.. That is very true.. Each relationship is different..
<PMolur[d]> The truth and acceptance of a relationships true nature?
<MstrsTori> I can own as many subs/slaves as I desire, as long as I treat them with respect and trust.
<PMolur[d]> Yes.
<rumpusMT> I would welcome them Mam
<HaZoR> there I disagree Mr1...naia and jora are living examples of harmony as slave sisters
<jora> Mr1, Sir ... this girl doesn't feel it a slap in her face that Master HaZoR has another slave.. As a matter of fact.. This girl loves her heart sister ..And would be very saddened if naia wasn't a part of O/our family
<PMolur[d]> No, it is a group effort of working together
<_Jester_> no matter at what level a sub/slave still has a will and things they want to do remember that
<Mr1> that is just my opinion Tori. Well then there you have it if ya have more than one in real life... more than likely you're going to have more here too
<Mr1> I mean I can't divide my attention between subs..
<HaZoR> well then that is good that you know your limits Mr1, it is foolish to take on more than a Man can whip...<EG>
<jora> Mr1, Sir. What works for O/one, may not work for A/another .. and to know what O/one wants, and can handle is a good base to start on
<MstrsTori> I think Mr1 that you are a wonderful person and in time would be able to handle more, if you were desiring of it.
<Mr1> it's not fair to them or me, in my beliefs only
<Mr1> well HaZoR lol, I just feel that if I am divided, then I am no longer in control
<Mr1> what works for you, naia, and HaZoR doesn't work for me
<Mr1> but I choose not to change in that light
<rumpusMT> I think the difference between slave and sub is the intenseness between the Dom and the submissive
<PMolur[d]> I do not think that should be a problem?
<PMolur[d]> That sounds like a reasonable line
<Macartt> and when the so-called Master destroys the slave, who is responsible then?
<MstrsTori> I appreciate that about you Mr1. Its good to stick to what you feel is right, and know your limits. The making of a good Dom.
<Mr1> that so-called Master in my book
<HaZoR> you gave us the answer Macartt...he was not a Master to begin with
<HaZoR> and he is responsible
<Macartt> there are many like that about hazor
<rumpusMT> all I know is as far as my submission goes it is complete...but only to My Mistress
<Mr1> it's the path I walk daily Tori, no sense deviating from it just for the sake of appearances
<HaZoR> that is a quality in itself Mr1...to be who you are not be who you want to be or become what others want you to be
<Macartt> there is no point in waste Hazor.
<MsAmelia> to thy own self be true
<PMolur[d]> but rumpus. you are also submissive to others. Just not to nearly the same level

END OF SESSION