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Jordi 1975 Tiomkin again !
Wednesday night, after the glorious spanish football victory ( 4-3 against Iugoeslavia ), Tv delighted viewers again with another Samuel Bronston's production: 'The fabulous world of circus' ( next two weeks we'll see 'El Cid' and 'The Fall of the Roman Empire' ).I didn't watch the film well. I disconnected of what I was seeing and hearing. What a boring film ! I expected much from it but I got very disappointed. And when I heared some notes from the soundtrack, I gessed: Tiomkin again ! I was pitty right. I'd like to be respectful with all those who like and appreciate his music. But in me definitively it worked on my neuro-system, as a narcotic drugg. And not for supposed figured sleeping effects, but for a sense of slimy resins on my skin, and gloomy colour.I'd try to avoid suggesting that Mr. RÑzsa could do it better, but... Elmer Berstein, for instance. By the way, anybody could explain me how were relationships between Mr. Bronston and Mr. RÑzsa ? Why after KoK and El Cid, maestro's don't appear more in the Film Spanish Empire of the american producer ?Why RÑzsa was changed for Dimitri Tiomkin ? There was any quarrel ? Is the reason 'to produce more "serious" chamber and orchestral music' credible ? Ed Defending Tiomkin again!
Jordi, Again, I must point out that Tiomkin was not inferior to Rozsa. Perhaps on a technical level due to his inability to orchestrate but his end results were marvelous just the same. By the way, I don't find "Empire" a dull film. It's certainly contains more depth than Ridley Scott's empty headed specticle, "Gladiator" which shares the same time frame as well as characters. I won't even go into the score for that one! I rarely found Tiomkin's music to be the kind that could lull one into la la land. The man's music was just too emotional for that. Some critics of his work might say too overwrought but I found Dimi's, at times, florid approach to scoring a film to be very original and full of character. He could be as good as anyone if he tried. One example of his finest achievements would be the strange, literally out of this world music he came up with for "The Thing." There are musical passages in the film that illuminate with a strange, out-of-this-world flavor that only a Herrmann could have conceived and probably not as well for that matter! With few exceptions, Tiomkin had a much firmer grasp on how to convey the proper musical expression that captured the mood of the wild, old, root 'n, toot 'n, west. Of his contemporaries, only Max Steiner matched him in that area. That claim wouldn't be challenged until the arrival of Elmer Bernstein and his triumphs with especially "The Magnificent Seven" coming to mind. Jerome Moross unfortunately restricted his composing or he might have worn the crown after his stunning musical score for "The Big Country."Tiomkin wasn't always euphuistic as well as bombastic all the time. He could take an uncomplicated approach, setting aside his usual complex tapestry that some found annoying. Tiomkin's score for "Thiry Six Hours" presented music
composed in a Herrmann-like manner with simplistic ostinato structure. He could also demonstrate a quiete, etherial quality and much prefered to end his films diminuendo and not forte as displayed in "The Big Sky" (gorgeous score!) and "The Guns of Navarone" (superb score!). Tiomkin kept getting better with age unlike Rozsa who became somewhat stale and self-plagiaristic towards the end of his career. I guess it all boils down to personal likes and dislikes which is what makes the world go 'round. All I can say in the man's defense is listen to his works, especially during the 1950's. He was a true original but so was Rozsa. No one on the face of the earth, then or now, could have written the music for "Ben-Hur" any better, probably non as well!
Matthias Wiegandt Tiomkin, not defended
I don't see a need to defend a composer against anything. Everybody is free to choose his music according to personal tastes.Ed, you
have pointed out some more sparse scores by Tiomkin. I am fine with that, but - exactly these scores don't convince me too much, even if
I have to admit that I love the "The Big Sky" selections on the Gerhardt album (but not nearly as much as the Search for Paradise
cantata with its choral outbursts).But we should stop using that rather washed out adjective "bombastic", because it is a negative
metaphor of musical phenonema. Tiomkin always was a juvenile composer, who liked to give signals to musical stampedes. Because of
exactly that he became one of my first film music heroes - not so much on LP but within the western movies of the 50s. Every time his
name got these fat credit letters, I was happy (and sometimes still I am, if with a lucky smile on my face). There is a virile,
hysterical quality about his music, which no other film composer matched. I love his use of trumpets, drums, the orchestral mixture
(o.k., no talk about orchestrators, please), these Rimsky-Korsakov hints. Tiomkin was an optimistic composer, and so is his music. The
first disappointment was (for me) The Old Man and the Sea. I would have preferred a more gorgeous sound, but today the race is over,
for I cannot bare that movie any longer, with all its symbolic meanings and lack of tempo (a pity, since there are not many actors
like Spencer Tracy)I don't listen too much to my Tiomkin recordings, but the organ piece from the Roman Empire is still a
regular, and a directly from tv comprised Gunfight at the O.K. Corral suite as well. I am still waiting for a widescreen panavision
screening (at least a DVD) of this ingenious western ballet, with a cleaned soundtrack.
rlw48 Tiomkin again!
Jordi, regarding your question as to why Rozsa didn't work with Samuel Bronston after El Cid, it may have been due to the
disagreement Rozsa had about sound effects drowning out his music in some scenes, and the complete removal of at least one cue, the fight
between Chimene's father and Rodrigo. Because of these issues, Rozsa refused to go on a publicity tour for the film. His attitude was
that he couldn't talk about something that was not in the film. This seems at least one likely reason for the estrangement. By the way,
in case you didn't know, Tiomkin was supposed to score Sodom And Gomorrah but couldn't because of his cataracts. Thankfully, this
gave us our last Biblical epic score from Rozsa. He almost did The Bible, too, but that's another story. Bob Ward
John Fitzpatrick Bronston estrangement
Actually quite a lot of music was cut from EL CID. You can read about it in Frank DeWald's essay in PMS 50-51. It is a great pity
that James Sedares did not see fit to give us more of the unknown CID instead of just repeating the highlights.Still, Rozsa's
response does seem disproportionate to the crime. I suspect that by 1962 he was simply fed up with Hollywood meddling and preferred to
write for himself.
Ed Tiomkin
"I don't see a need to defend a composer against anything. Everybody is free to choose his music according to personal tastes." paul packer tiomkin & SODOM
I thought the reason Tiomkin didn't score Sodom & Gomorrah was because he had a fight with the director, Robert Aldrich. According to the story I heard, Tiomkin watched the film on a moviola and then said to Aldrich, "I don't buy it," meaning he didn't buy it that Lot's wife turned into a pillar of salt. Aldrich then said, "What do you want me to do--re-write the Bible!" Big fight: exit Tiomkin. Someone then contacted Rozsa and said the Tiomkin was supposed to score the film but he was sick. Sounds logical.By the way, Rozsa and Bronston did fall out over El Cid because of tampering with the
music. Rozsa refused to do the promotional tour, Bronston sent a telegram asking him to reconsider, Rozsa replied, "No reconsideration possible." Rozsa could be quite tetchy and stiff-necked about these things, but then he was a great artist, and aren't great artists supposed to be a bit that way? It was only ever over people meddling with his music; in every other way he was apparently the perfect gentleman.
Ed Tiomkin
"Sodom and Gomorrah" was a dreadful film, second only from the bottom of Aldrich's career to the detestable, unwatchable, "Legend of Lylah Clare." Any composer who would have involved himself or herself (we must be politically correct these days!) with such dreck, only displayed the need to put food on the table! If Tiomkin walked off the film, he should be praised for having had good taste and knowing where to draw the line!
Jordi 1975 Sodoma and Tiomkin
Ed, I'm afraid I have to disagree. Sodoma wasn't so bad at all, and I think just there Dimitri Tiomkin could have done a good job. Of course, all the ressources that Aldrich could afford there, weren't made a good use. I have to say that I was really disappointed with the film, when I reviewed it some months ago; I wanted something as MGM's KoK overture. A begining with all its force. But I also understand that the decadent atmosphere that ought
have been depicted in the film, turned against all the team, included Mr.RÑzsa, as a boomerang.But I think that there are lots ( "Lot's" ) of things from Sodoma that can be saved from an apparent disaster.Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that set and costumes design are more realistic and not so spurious as in Kok or similar films. It may mean less brightness for some, but it led me closer to the situation. Finally, I see a Stewart Granger
whose maturity could seem inaproppiate, when we're used to see him with all his dinamism in 50's films. But he bears the character of Lot as well enough as some could expect.
Ed Sodom and Aldrich
Jordi, Bob Aldrich was a terrific director of action films full of dynamics and character interplay. "Attack!" is still one of the best war films ever produced. "Saving Private Ryan" is a fine film but no war film ever had such a gut-wrenching effect on me as did Aldrich's masterpiece. "The Flight of the Phoenex" is an example of Aldrich at his best. "Whatever Happened to Baby Jane" displayed a truly dark side to the director's abilities. Aldrich's talents all
came together for "The Dirty Dozen." That film is still the benchmark on how to make a successful action-war-adventure picture. Others have tried to match it such as the OK "Devil's Brigade," the abysmal "Kelly's Heroes" and the perfectly dreadful "Green Berets." The last film's only reason for existance being a halfhearted score from Rozsa (can you blame him?). All fall short of Aldrich's superlative achievement. All this brings us to the fact that
he was the worst possible choice to direct "Sodom and Gomorrah." The film suffered from a cheap, spaghetti western look, culminating in the fact that most of the actor's were dubbed. Even the English speaking player's dialogue looks to have been post-synced. The visual effects are miserable as well as the insideous matte paintings. Come to think of it, I never noticed the costumes since the whole enterprise wreaked of extreme parsimony. Stewart Grainger looked to me to be extremly uncomfortable with the role. Only Stanley Baker delivered an acceptable performance (was he ever bad?). Let's dismiss all my prior criticisms by replacing it with the fact that the film is boring as well as pedestrian in its construction and execution. To compare it on the same level or better with "The King of Kings" is near blasphemous! At least with that film, the audience sensed some sincerity and warmth from the
proceedings. Rozsa's music reflected that feeling although by the time of KOK's, he had suffered from a lack of truly inspirational films to work on. After "Ben-Hur," his assignments grew worse and I perceived from his scores that the man had grown tired of the media that he so highly regarded.
Jordi 1975 Again, and again, Tiomkin here !
Last night I had the pleasure to review 'The Fall of Roman Empire', so cheeky plagiarized by 'Gladiator' few time ago. I enjoyed a lot this recreation of the sick atmosphere which depicts the begining of the end of the greatest old age civilisation: Rome.Stephen Boyd, Christopher Plummer, Alec Guiness... all actors were excellent in their roles. May Sophia Loren and young Omar Shariff a little pansy couple for my taste. Love scenes between Lucilla and Livius ended boring me and feeding up my patience. And relationship between Commodus and Livius lets me remember Juda Ben-Hur and Messala's one: they begin meeting, drinking, fighting both, and finally fighting with mad fellon's death as final result.Both roles of Marcus Aurelius and Timonides ( Guiness and Mason respectively ) were superb, masterly starred by two actors that bring the plot to a suitable quality for such a superproduction. Some people, were I'm included, are critics with Gladiator's plot but, re-reading 'The Fall of Roman Empire', there are examples of stupid dialogues,
despite the whole film ( with its sequences, photography, story... ) surpasses Gladiator largely.Finally, I have to blame again Tiomkin's work for this film. Sorry Ed, and other Dimi fans, but it's too much for me, three hours of a music that my taste finds fragmentary, with no inner 'pasting', and, overall, extremely botched in some moments.I love the funeral march for Marcus Aurelius, reprised after in Lucilla's appearance, I don't remember
exactly when. Main thematic melody is also good, but very badly developed and used. Some fanfarres look like an elephant's shout of teeth pain, instead of a powerful army march or atack. The coral version of main theme sounds too much 'hollywoodesque'. Compare it to choral parts from Rozsa's 'Julius Caesar'. There, you find a real sense of obscurity and plenitude. May RÑzsa's cinema coral scores are too 'church-esque', but have a more suitable colour.And finally, I don't know who's the creator of the 'brilliant'( ironically speaking ) idea to use mandolines. Whooops ! Mandolines ! Why not harps or lires, roman instruments, not italian ! What an anacronism ! Is like RÑzsa used there a theremin !!!In battles and action scenes, the 'crescendo' climax that you find in RÑzsa's compositions is lost here.Tiomkins music sounds here so that brings to my mind the image of thousands of black ants runing (
that's just for '55 days at Pekin', because there boxers are killed as ants ) and dancing over Dimi's notes, but not for the preparation and fighting in a batle.Above I mentioned a fragmentary music, and it's despite the aparent mono-coloured structure. Dimi applies 'igualitarism'. I think RÑzsa approaches more to the technique of leitmotive, after used by John Williams in 'Starwars'. A theme or a variation of a role main theme for each character or characters and their relation, or for each moment or situation. I think Dimi isn't so 'equitative'. Doesn't respect the essence of each item. Is like
an artist that paints all objects red or blue, and with an evident tendence to deform them.I think Dimi's music doesn't connect with historical and archetypical roots and echoes of roman world in viewer's spirit. I think only RÑzsa reaches it. Even Alex North in 'Spartacus' hardly covers this, findig also there musical tracks that could be fit in a contemporary set. Despite this, I LOVE 'Spartacus' soundtrack and I would prefer Alex North has composed
the music for The Fall Of Roman Empire, to Mr. Tiomkin.I see a great influence of Tchaikowsky on Dimi's music.Too much, for my ears.I'm fear that Mr. Mann thought too much in 'western' style shooting 'The Fall...'. That's a pitty, because the window opened to ancient Rome, to which RÑzsa's music could have approached us, remains closed. With RÑzsa's affair a careless Bronston let loose for the world of cinema a jewell that might launched him to glory.
Ed Tiomkin
You know Jordi, one man's pain is another man's pleasure! I've known people who absolutely depise Tiomkin's work and others who think he's the greatest thing since sliced bread. I fall (not with Rome) somewhere in between. Last night American Music Classics was running "The Last Train from Gun Hill" starring Kirk Douglas and Tony Quinn. It's a wonderful western and Tiomkin wrote a terrific score that I would find hard to match by anyone. He had this ability to get under the action but also the dialogue and build tension in a scene. When he was good he could do no wrong in my book but when he
was bad......I watched "Champion" the other night and his music is so blaring and over the top that it's hard to watch the film. It's also played out of tune as though Albert Glasser did the orchestration! Gee, come to think of it, he could have! I know he worked for Tiomkin. That could explain everything!
Alan Hamer
Yes, BLARING is a very suitable adjective to describe so much of Tiomkin's scores. Also, over-busy (a little like a scherzo of a symphony blazing away),inappropriate and stuff which really calls attention to itself. An example which springs to mind, THE HIGH AND THE MIGHTY: in parts, almost unwatchable and doing a large disservice to the subtler art of effective film scoring.Having said all this, why do I have a soft spot for his music, maybe I just enjoy the style and flair he possessed. I still reckon LAND OF THE PHAROAHS is one of his finest as this awful film (talk of SODOM....) needed a symphony to save it!
Matthias Wiegandt Tiomkin tunes
Does anybody know "Angel Face", starring Jean Simmons? It was screened at the Berlinale film festival last year, and I really loved Tiomkin's main tune for the lady. I am looking for a videotape, but there isn't any commercially available edition.
stefan schlegel Re: Tiomkin tunes
Hello Matthias,I am new to this fantastic website and I am also from Germany (near Stuttgart), a fan of RÑzsa's music and also of other classsical film composers like Korngold and Herrmann.I also know the excellent Preminger fim "Angel Face", which has a quite good score by Tiomkin, which unfortunately isn't available on LP or CD. You are right, the video obviously isn't available here in Germany.But I have a good address for you here on the internet where you can get the original version (with French subtitles) on video.The site - a great site, by the way, for lovers of new French soundtracks, which you can hear with Real Player - is a French one and called www.alapage.comThe price for "Angel Face" there is 115 Francs (that's about 37 DM), not very expensive.I've ordered from this site some new French soundtracks a few weeks ago and they delivered the CDs within 7
days.First-rate! And the postage is very cheap - only 25 Francs (7,50 DM). It's also even better to order there than at FNAC, where the postage for us Germans is much too high.Best wishesStefan
stefan schlegel Re: Tiomkin tunes
Sorry,I have to correct myself."Angel Face" is also available in Germany in the German version.I just had a look at the April issue of the 'jpc courier'.They have it for 29.95 DM.Again best wishes fromStefan
Matthias Wiegandt Angel Face
Hello Stefan,welcome in the RÑzsa church community! And thanks a lot for your Tiomkin help. Normally, I don-'t buy German dubbed videos of foreign movies, but in this case... Let's hope that they didn't change the score.jpc is always a good choice, and they now sell the "Martha Ivers" DVD (Code 1) for DM 14.95!
stefan schlegel Re: Angel Face
Thanks for the tip, Matthias, but I have the "Martha Ivers" original version already on video. I can only say: beware of the German dubbed version, which was made for TV around 1990. They almost completely replaced RÑzsa's music (as is so often the case with 30s or 40s movies) with the worst archival music you can imagine - because the tapes were lost.The atmosphere of the whole film is destroyed and I don't want to see (and hear!) that
dubbed version ever again!With "Angel Face" there is no problem. The Tiomkin score is also in the German dubbed version ok, because the dubbing is from 1952, when they had no problem to get the right music tapes.The problem with those "archival musics" comes up mostly when an old film which hasn't been shown in German cinemas 40 or 50 years ago should now be dubbed for TV. In most cases they can't separate music, dialogue and effects tracks anymore.Another reason is often when the film has been shown say at the end of the 40s in German cinemas all the copies are destroyed. So what should do they do? They have to make a new dubbing, and the whole film is in most cases destroyed.(For example "The Four Feathers" or "Spy in Black" with almost no RÑzsa music in them anywhere).Another ugly practice was made in the 60s by the 'Atlas' distributor, who almost single-handedly massacred the most famous Bogart pictures ("Big Sleep", "Key Largo" and so on), and even made new main titles with new, jazzy music.And the
films are even today shown on TV in this version.But nobody of the normal film-going public gets worried about that.So the dubbing firms can do what they want with older films.I think it's really a shame. Ed Tiomkin
Welcome Stefan, I know you will find this an excellent place for exchanging information and thoughts on not on Miklos Rozsa but any composer. I must disagree on Tiomkin's music for "The High and the Mighty." Perhaps I'm spoiled somewhat since I had the opportunity to see the film in it's first run engagement. I was blown away by the spectacular stereophonic magnetic sound as well as seeing the Cinemascope image on a huge, curved screen. Tiomkin's score was the first to actually start my 46 years of appreciation of film music. The score fit the film like a glove. Max Steiner could have done as well but Tiomkin capturd the spirit of the film for me and I'll never be able to forget my initial reaction. It was of wonder and
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