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So, what is the morale of the three fish tale?
Jeff: I think it's just a really good representation of what Rumi, or
Henry Miller, or Hemingway, or Rilke, or any of these people like that, just
really, really... they were driven to experience life to the fullest, in the
fullest sense that they could, and I think that poem talks about doing whatever
it takes to find love or to experience love in the greatest degree, or to find
that love in yourself and to take whatever chances that you need to, to do that.
And that's what the intelligent fish, you know, took a long journey to the ocean
and made it to the infinite ocean, and he was rewarded with this new opportunity
to grow. And the other fish -- one fish is dead...
Richard: The half-intelligent fish sort of settles with mediocrity and
not taking chances... Basically, the story is a perfect analogy of so many things
in our lives, some people playing it safe, not moving away, staying with a comfortable
situation where other people wanna take chances. So I think the analogy there
is pretty important. I think we can all identify with that.
Robbi: And then, one idea that I had with that is that the lake is a
confined area. You come into this world, you come out of your room and you go,
"Ah!.." All the ancient histories and stuff. And then suddenly someone hurts
you, or some pain comes: your mother tells you to shut up, or your father hits
you or something, and suddenly you experience pain. And then slowly you build
up this network of defenses that protects you from the pain. And I think that
the lake symbolizes this structure, this huge construct that you designed around
yourself in order to protect yourself from getting hurt. And at the same time
that whole structure can cause you to be mediocre. And I think the intelligent
fish, he decides to go away from this lake, from the structure, from the fishermen
and their nets and all that stuff, and he doesn't ask the other fishes, because
their ignorance will keep them there. Somehow, once we've built up these structures
of defenses -- "I'm Robbi Robb. That's who I am." -- then that's like a limitation
of who I am. You ask a Zen master, if you point at a car and say, "Zen master,
what is that?" He says, "Oh, it's a nice place to sit in the shade, it's comfortable
to sleep in..." He can tell you a hundred and one thing before he tells you
it's a car. It's more open. I think the story discusses that, the breaking those
confines of your fears, those patterns that you've brought up in order to protect
yourself from pain. The poem that I read tonight was from Love
And Difficulties where Rilke is telling you that we wanna go into these
love affairs and have happiness, we're like utopia-mongers, we all want heaven,
whereas actually the difficulties in the relationship are the most important
place, because that is the place where you're up against your patterns, you're
up against that person... That's the great place of the great work and the great
conversation, as opposed to, you know, we can sleep together one night and drink
and never really discuss these things, as most families I've experienced in
the last few years. That way. We're on the way to the future now.
(laugh)
Tell me about the instrumentation on the record and on
stage tonight. You played several different things.
Robbi: (extends his ring finger to the camera) Can you get this
little blister on camera? (the blister is the size of Mount Rushmore)
This is what happens when a lead guitarist plays bass. Did you get it? (laugh)
Jeff: I think it's representative of what we've just been talking
about. I think sometimes you can get in... that groove can turn into a rut.
I can go play bass, and it's really natural to me, and it's easy, and I'm comfortable
and I can do all these slick things. But if I put on a guitar it's like, two
extra strings, you just play it differently, and it puts me on the edge, it
puts me in this really interesting place in terms of my energy... my energy
changes drastically.
Robbi: The difficulties...
Jeff: Yeah, or if I sit down at a piano, or if I sit down at a drum or
whatever. So I think the fact that we're changing the mediums constantly keeps
us on top of it, keeps us in tune with the music, which ultimately it doesn't
matter what instrument that you're playing. It matters how you're playing it
and what's coming through you onto the thing. You could be playing a drum, a
guitar, a tuba, whatever; as long as you have the basic skills for any of those
instruments the feeling is gonna come out somehow. If you put your awe into
it, it's gonna project somehow. And it's just a... it's the beginnings of trying
to experience that... putting yourself in a situation where you can turn your
fear into something good, you know, into good energy...
Robbi: Creative.
Who was?..
Richard: Cary Ecklund.
...who's playing a guitar?
Robbi: Everything.
Jeff: He's playing keyboards mostly. But he plays a little drums, he
plays a little guitar...
Robbi: ...vocals...
Jeff: He's upstairs probably counting t-shirts right now and making sure
our equipment gets out of here and stuff.
Richard: He was around in the making... the recording, so we thought
in the true spirit of that experience why not include him in the live situation.
Jeff: Plus, we need him, cause we layered a bunch of different instrumentation
on a lot of these songs, and so we needed him. We'd be struggling as a three-piece
right now.
So how much longer
are you out for?
Jeff: I think we have fifteen more shows, something like that... fourteen
more shows.
It's been fun?
Richard: Extremely.
Jeff: It's been great. It's just so much more calm and... Compared to
what I've been used to the last three or four years it's simple. There's six
of us: there's a guy that does sound, a guy that helps set up the gear and tunes
our guitars, and there's us four. And it's just really, really nice to be able
to have a conversation with everybody involved in one little room. And the energy
at the shows is just different too, I mean, it's representing what we're trying
to do here in a really nice way. It's a good perspective for me.
Hmm... I gotta ask you some Pearl Jam questions.
(Richard gets up to leave)
No, no, no, come back here!
Jeff: You can answer them. (laugh)
So, Pearl Jam's getting
ready to tour. Did you consider having Three Fish open?
Jeff: I think there's a rule... in this, for sure, there's a rule not
to mix that stuff. I think there's enough baggage subconsciously just having
me in the band. I think it's really nice to keep that away from it as far as
we can and just have it be our thing... So no, there's no possibility of that.
And Pearl Jam can never open up for us either, so...
Oh, I don't know...
Robbi: Pearl Jam have opened up for us.
Interviewer and Jeff : Have they???
Robbi: Yeah... (a moment of silent contemplation)
When?
Robbi: Well, I mean, in one sense, the way that we recorded this project...
had it not been for Jeff's situation regarding Pearl Jam we wouldn't have had
the sec... let's put it this way: financial freedom, right? First of all, financially
we wouldn't have had the situation... This album was the cheapest album I've
ever made though, because there was no financial... there was no hundred and
fifty dollars to be spent.
Richard: The rest of the members in Pearl Jam have been really supportive
about it, which is nice. Most bands, when you start to try another avenue and
experience...
Robbi: And also my experience, my own personal experience with Pearl
Jam is, when I first heard this tape I thought to myself, "Oh God, the
song is back." Because, who was it before, it was Motley Crue, all these
bands, image and shit... image and stuff... But it was like, the song is back.
And it gives you the confidence, you know, oh cool, people listening to the
song, people listening to the emotional content. That first Pearl Jam album
was totally... "Daddy didn't give affection," it was issues that...
what rockers were talking about that stuff?
You know where all
those hair-band songwriters are now -- Nashville, all writ'n that new Country
stuff.
Jeff: Actually, we were watching TNN a few months ago, and we were looking
at how the bands look, and we were like, this is the new Heavy Metal, because
the dress and all that garb, and it's all slick, and just everything is exactly
the way that those hair-bands were in the Eighties. It's really funny.
Robbi: Someone's gonna come and blow this whole thing open with a song,
you know?
Hopefully... There's
a lot of bands that I like that are out there doing country rock... Jayhawks...
Cracker?
Jeff: And I think there's guys even now, Gillmore, and I even think Dwight
Yokam is a total purist Country guy. I think there's good music in there, but
there's just a lot of really bad music... like pop music or rock music or whatever.
When does the Pearl
Jam tour start, and then is it just in America?
Jeff: We're gonna do couple of weeks on the East Coast at the end of
September... Essentially, we didn't get to the East Coast last year, so we're
just gonna try to finish up where we left off last year. And I think we'll go
to Europe for like a month... cause we haven't been there like three years,
since we were there with Tribe After Tribe.
Is the new album a
big departure from the last?
Jeff: Yeah, I mean... Last change, we have a different drummer, I think
Jack brought a lot of interesting things to this record; I think Mike came to
this record a lot more focused than he's been probably since the first record,
and so he's playing some really amazing stuff on it. I think it's a departure.
But I think it was a lot more natural than the last two records. It feels...
doesn't feel as reactionary maybe. Feels like it's really... the songs that
I've always wanted to play. So it was comfortable on that level.
Does a lot of it have
to do with sort of slipping away from the media and the spotlight and not having
toured?
Jeff: Sure, sure. I think that's the only way that we've survived the last
three or four years. I think if we would've been taking it all on like... I
mean I'm really good friends with some of those other bands, like our peers,
our contemporary peers -- those bands are having problems right now. We're really
close to home where something happened a couple of days ago... Those guys have
been... The Pumpkins have been moving and shaking for a long, long time, you
know? You have to really listen and pay attention to what's going on personally
with everybody, and you have to adjust your rhythm to that. Sometimes the business
and the egos and stuff get in the way of taking care of the pain that's going
on, and so... People die from it.
We were all sort of
wondering yesterday when it happened and we all heard, and in the last eighteen
months, sixteen months... What is it that people are feeling and experiencing
that makes them turn to heroin and drugs, whatever, and they're all -- some
are in rehab, some have died, some are just caught up in it. Is it easier to
get? Or people still have those problems inside that they're just not dealing
with?
Jeff: Sure... And people know. People are really educated now, people
know, it's not like the Sixties when it was like, oh yeah, I'll just do this
and do this and I'll be free and whatever. People know what those things do,
and people know that that will numb you out. And the Nineties are so different
than the Sixties: there's so much media, there's just so much pressure on everything,
and like I said, you really have to take care. You have to know when to step
back and say, "hey, let's all go to Brazil for six months," or "let's
just..." And it's easy. You don't need to go out and tour nine months out
of a year, you don't need to make records. You don't need to make hit records
all the time. A lot of these bands, they have plenty of money, they have plenty
of space to do whatever they wanna do, and there's enough music out there that
people don't need to put out records as much, or whatever. It's just... it's
a bummer that people get caught up in that whole train. Because it's a train
and it's going down the hill really fast, and if you don't stop at that first
stop it goes a little bit faster into the second stop, and a little bit faster
to the next one, and pretty soon...
At least with you
guys, you stepped away from the interviews and the videos, and you can do that
and still sell records at your level.
Jeff: Sure, probably not as many as some people wish. I'm sure people
think we could sell twice as many if we did videos and all that stuff, but I
mean, what point do you... It's like the guy that has fifty million dollars
that's investing his money to try to make it so he has seventy next year, whatever.
I don't understand that. When you start to get up into those sorts of numbers
it doesn't make any sense. And then if you really step back from it you go,
I'm taking the money out of somebody else's pocket. And if you actually walk
around the street, or right out here, those are the people's pockets that you're
taking the money out of. And it's... greed is a really weird thing -- greed
and power and all that stuff.
There are huge, large
communication companies, and that's the industries that run this nation, just
like years ago it was the industrial age or whatever.
Jeff: Exactly.
And now it's communications:
you have to have more, more, more; but you managed to sort of step away and
kept a level of success. So whenever you guys didn't put out a video I was like,
good for them! We don't need it, they're doing fine without us, but people would
just get all "argh."
Richard: It's so amazing that that gap though, there's so many bands
that would do anything to get that kind of media.
But again, I'm sure
when you guys started you wanted the success, but then it just became this huge...
Jeff: But initially, all the video is for is to turn people in Middle
America where you're not playing on to what's going on, and it's a promotional
tool, you know, it's to get your... to introduce people to the music. So, now
that people know who we are, you just put out records. And people can buy our
record anywhere, so focus again should be on the music -- it shouldn't necessarily
be on what shirt I'm wearing, or where I'm living, or any of my personal stuff.
Which is... that's what all those magazines, all those people are hungry for.
You know, the Newsweeks and the Time Magazines and the Rolling Stones, all those
magazines, they used to be legitimate newsworthy magazines that reported on
critical stuff. And now, ninety percent of it is what color is Perry Farrell's
hair this week, or Metallica is wearing new clothes and has new haircuts and
spikes through their faces...
Robbi: ...and who wears panties...
Richard: ...what's the hottest new Hawaiian shirt or something. (everybody
observes the ugly yellow Hawaiian shirt that Richard is wearing)
Robbi: It's right here!
That's pop culture,
of course.
Jeff: You know, what's interesting is... this conversation has come up
a couple of times in the last few months, but... what happened to Axl Rose?
He's in therapy, and
he's living at his house and not doing anything.
Jeff: That's great!!! I was thinking, wow, hats off to Axl! Like, nobody's
seen him, he hasn't been in the news...
Robbi: Major therapy -- he goes quiet.
Jeff: That's good, man.
Robbi: When you're in therapy you're quiet, you suddenly realize you
ain't that...
Jeff: And hopefully, he's in a healthy place or whatever. Not that I'm
this huge Axel fan or whatever, but I Just thought the other day, like, wow,
he just disappeared. I thought that's a great, you know...
Robbi: He's gone inside.
Jeff: He's not Magic Johnson who's coming out of retirement every four
months -- he actually went away, and... nice.
Robbi: You slap a woman once or twice, and after that you're gonna start
asking yourself a question.
Jeff: Aaah!..
Robbi: He did that.
Jeff: Yeah?
Robbi: Yeah, he was, like, slapping his wife... (Jeff hits his chair
in distress)
Now, you did the artwork
for the Three Fish album. Did you do it for Pearl Jam? Trading cards?.. Where
did that come from?
Jeff: (thinking) No, no, I didn't... I actually had very little to
do with the Pearl Jam stuff. It was actually Eddie and my brother. And I went
down a few times, but I was totally involved with this and the music and stuff,
so... It's a really cool album cover though.
(a major stomping sound behind the wall)
Oh!
Richard: I felt that!
Jeff: It's a hundred-pound rat.
So, why trading cards,
and what are they?
Jeff: They're actually... I don't know, they're little surprises...
Robbi: (laugh) Here we go.
Jeff: Green clovers, blue diamonds, yellow hearts, whatever... We're
just trying to make a cool package and trying to approach it in a fresh way,
as opposed to stamping out the jewel box that has the little four-page foldout
thing, which is really kinda stock and cold and doesn't feel right. And this
package feels like a cool old album cover that has these cool little things
and stuff.
You'll put out vinyl?
Jeff: Definitely. Very cool vinyl, actually.
White vinyl?
Jeff: No, no, no. Sounds worse. Colored vinyl doesn't sound as good.
Robbi: Really?
Jeff: Yeah...
Last question: what's
Dennis Rodman doing with Pearl Jam?
Jeff: What's Dennis Rodman doing with
Pearl Jam... I actually, three or four years ago I actually interviewed him
for a basketball magazine. They said I can interview whoever I wanted to, and
of course initially I was thinking of a couple of other people, but I thought,
"What would be the most interesting interview that I could do?" So
I went and I met him about three years ago. Turns out that he was a fan of ours,
and we hit it off, and... It's just really interesting, it's really interesting
to go off in that world and kinda see how they handle things, how they deal
with things... I'm happy to say that I love the world I'm in, as opposed
to that world. That world is... it's just a different world. I think maybe that
world is more like rock-n-roll was in the Seventies and the Sixties, and I think
probably rock-n-roll now... well, at least the rock-n-roll that I know is probably
the way that basketball was thirty years ago -- more cleancut and... We like
to... It's just different, it's different... It's a trippy world, all I can
say. I was just, like, in awe, like "Wow, mm, hm..." I was lucky enough
to be a...
Robbi: ...spectator.
Jeff: ...a very close spectator to that stuff, and so it was fun. I had
a good time
So is Dennis going
on the road with you guys, or is he...
Jeff: That's what he keeps saying: he says he's gonna kick drums with
us and do all that stuff, but it's, like, he's making deals with MTV right now.
Any time that he wants to come on the road with us, we had told him that he
can come on the road with us.
Robbi: Besides, Jeff would whop him at basketball anyway. He's a pretty
good basketball player. (laugh)
Jeff: I don't know if I'd whop him...
Robbi: You'll whop him brother. You'll whop him, I know you. (much
laughter)
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