on-reflection-digest     Tuesday, August 10 1999     Volume 01 : Number 1810



gg: Gentle Giant versus Genesis?
gg: Gentle Giant versus Genesis? (fwd)
Re: gg: Gentle Giant versus Genesis?
gg: RE: In appreciation of Mark
Re: gg: Re: Guitar buzz and STiCK buzzes...
Re: gg: Gentle Giant versus Genesis?
gg: How we listen to CDs
re:gg: the Bass-ics
not much gg: Gentle Giant vs. Genesis- the fight of a lifetime!
gg: Present's new album samples
gg: Re: MUtantes
gg: Re: ELP reprise
gg: Genesis, Gabriel, Collins
gg: Floyd/Waters, GORGG
gg: Re: Gentle Giant versus Genesis?
Re: not much gg: Gentle Giant vs. Genesis- the fight of a lifetime!
gg: The Hunger Site Home - Donate Food for Free to Give to Feed Hungry People in th
gg: Birthday Boy, Link Wray, GfaD review, MOJO
Re: gg: Re: ELP reprise
Re: gg: The Hunger Site Home - Donate Food for Free to Give to Feed Hungry People in th
gg: GG vs Genesis?
Re: gg: Re: ELP reprise
gg: End of the Station
Re: gg: Genesis, Gabriel, Collins
gg: Re: End of the Station
Re: gg: Prog Toto?
Re: gg: Re: ELP reprise
Re: gg: Genesis, Gabriel, Collins
Re: gg: Floyd/Waters, GORGG
Re: gg: Re: ELP reprise

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:58:24 -0400
From: "Stephen Shores @ work :P" 
Subject: gg: Gentle Giant versus Genesis?

One of the Q reviews that casglatze@t-online.de (casglatze) posted
mentioned that "GG lost out to Genesis on the popularity stakes". Did GG
ever knowingly *try* to compete with the other prog bands of the 70's? I
know they tried to change their sound to be more 'poppy' in the 80's
(hence the last three, although I'm much fonder of "Civilian" than
GFaD), but the article seemed to point out a competition that, to my
ears, wasn't there (or couldn't match up to our boys). Thank God Gentle
Giant didn't have someone like Phil Collins to lead the band into
mediocrity after Steve Hackett left...

	The reason I'm asking, of course, is because I was born in 1978 and
missed all my favorite bands in their prime (sniff). Here's a thought:
Since King Biscuit released the concert of their GG show, shouldn't
there be some video footage of that show left? How come there hasn't
been any concert videos of GG? I would love to *see* their relentless
instrument-switching and stage antics that I hear of on the group and
the website. 

	That, my friends, would be an exciting video, as opposed to the
"Anderson Bruford Wakeman Howe" DVD I bought not too long ago. Watching
Jon for ten minutes on stage is worth a laugh. Watching him for an hour
(via the terrible, in-your-face camera footage) is annoying. But that's
another rant.

Stephen
- -- 
  It's Stephen Shores!  Available in three fun varieties: 
sshores@orthotrac.com (at work), stephenshores@hotmail.com 
   (at home), and www.weaselsnout.com! Collect 'em all!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:27:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: MERRIGAN PHILIP 
Subject: gg: Gentle Giant versus Genesis? (fwd)

Reply-To: "Stephen Shores @ work :P" 

One of the Q reviews that casglatze@t-online.de (casglatze) posted
mentioned that "GG lost out to Genesis on the popularity stakes". Did GG
ever knowingly *try* to compete with the other prog bands of the 70's? I
know they tried to change their sound to be more 'poppy' in the 80's
(hence the last three, although I'm much fonder of "Civilian" than
GFaD), but the article seemed to point out a competition that, to my
ears, wasn't there (or couldn't match up to our boys). Thank God Gentle
Giant didn't have someone like Phil Collins to lead the band into
mediocrity after Steve Hackett left...

	The reason I'm asking, of course, is because I was born in 1978 and
missed all my favorite bands in their prime (sniff). Here's a thought:
Since King Biscuit released the concert of their GG show, shouldn't
there be some video footage of that show left? How come there hasn't
been any concert videos of GG? I would love to *see* their relentless
instrument-switching and stage antics that I hear of on the group and
the website. 

	That, my friends, would be an exciting video, as opposed to the
"Anderson Bruford Wakeman Howe" DVD I bought not too long ago. Watching
Jon for ten minutes on stage is worth a laugh. Watching him for an hour
(via the terrible, in-your-face camera footage) is annoying. But that's
another rant.

Stephen
- -- 
  It's Stephen Shores!  Available in three fun varieties: 
sshores@orthotrac.com (at work), stephenshores@hotmail.com 
   (at home), and www.weaselsnout.com! Collect 'em all!

- ----- End of forwarded message from Stephen Shores @ work :P -----



Reading Ray's interview last year in 20th century guitar, it is clear that it was deeply frustrating
for the Boys in the Band to witness the growing popularity of Yes and Genesis. However, 
Ray now admits that GG's music was simply too difficult and complex to achieve any kind of
wide commercial appeal. Part of that frustration may explain  GfaD and Civilian.

Phil

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 08:52:26 PDT
From: "Dan Weese" 
Subject: Re: gg: Gentle Giant versus Genesis?

>One of the Q reviews that casglatze@t-online.de (casglatze) posted
>mentioned that "GG lost out to Genesis on the popularity stakes".

I was recently reading some interviews with Phil Collins, where he finally 
discussed the breakup with Peter Gabriel.  He say Genesis, right from the 
start, was desperately trying to get a breakthrough single, believe that if 
you will.  The combination of Gabriel and Collins, while creating wonderful 
art rock, was not creating the financial success.  It was only after Gabriel 
left that either created any big hits on their own terms.

I enjoyed the Genesis that followed, up to and including Duke.  What 
followed was the most simple-minded pop imaginable.  My heart was always 
more attuned to Gabriel, and I confess to certain feelings of bitterness: I 
recall seeing "We Can't Dance" in the shops, and commenting to my 
girlfriend, "It's a long way from Dance on a Volcano to We Can't Dance"

Gentle Giant went through the same transmogrification as Genesis, IMHO.  
Both bands early work was done in the name of musicianship, with a long 
period of intense and brilliant showmanship, followed sadly by a period of 
thrashing about in search of some compromise between their artistic vision 
and commercial success.

++++

Allow me a brief diatribe on Emerson Lake and Palmer.  I bought the box set 
some years back, which covers everything of merit.  Sure, ELP was bombastic, 
Emerson was pompous and over-the-top.  Sure they stole about 50% of their 
licks, most classical composers did, it honors the work, not steals it.  
That's a concept I reject utterly.  What I find interesting about ELP was 
their musical heritage.  Essentially no-one in rock and roll was as 
influenced by classical music as ELP:  the blues had a baby, and they called 
it rock and roll, but ELP was attempting to take classical forward into a 
world of rock.  Granted, the results were often ridiculous, often campy, but 
the occasional moments of brilliance were worth the bombast and organ 
destroying.  I saw them live in Chicago, with the orchestra.  I knew I was 
looking at something one-of-a-kind.  ELP would almost go broke on that tour, 
the orchestra was dismissed later.

My favourite ELP was the Tarkus LP.  As a kid raised in church, that LP 
opened the hell-raising vistas possible on a Hammond organ.  If I am not 
mistaken, Eddie Offord engineered it, at Advision.  Eddy Offord was my idol 
in those days.

nd: coffee my wife brought back from Guatemala
np:  Art In America, eponymous


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 17:29:54 +0100
From: "Mark L. Potts" 
Subject: gg: RE: In appreciation of Mark

> 
> I didn't know that about Coverdale.  Sounds like a Fragin Harzazz
> fish-sucking Peshtak Bastich to me!  Got to avoid the bad language in
> these posts.
> 
> JEE
I could not have put it better myself!

Catch You on the Flipside,

Mark L. Potts
The God of Thunder

np: Stanley Clarke - The Bass-ic Collection
 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 13:05:42 EDT
From: NoMorePhil@aol.com
Subject: Re: gg: Re: Guitar buzz and STiCK buzzes...

In a message dated 8/7/99 3:00:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, civilian@ice.net 
writes:

<< (D)On a similar but divergent note...that's why I love to play the STiCK. 
 (O)It allows me to be in touch with my inner, performing musician. It's 
 (U)gritty and I make mistaxe. I like that. It maxe me feel real. I really 
 (G)dig composing (putting little pencil scratches on staff paper), but I 
 (J)like MIDI and, specifically, the 'organic touch' as it's been described. 
 
  >>
Reading the thoughful words above, one has to wonder just which 'stick' you 
are referring to.   ;)
No explanation needed there Doug...
Marc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 12:46:18 +0000
From: Diana Green 
Subject: Re: gg: Gentle Giant versus Genesis?

hail and caffeine;
re:


"Stephen Shores @ work :P" wrote:

> One of the Q reviews that casglatze@t-online.de (casglatze) posted
> mentioned that "GG lost out to Genesis on the popularity stakes". Did GG
> ever knowingly *try* to compete with the other prog bands of the 70's?

I'll have to do some digging for specifics, but I know there was at least one
direct mention of that by Derek in on of those Trouser Press articles, specific
to Genesis, as to it being a race which of them would hit it big, as it were,
since they were right next to each other in most album bins.

> I
> know they tried to change their sound to be more 'poppy' in the 80's
> (hence the last three, although I'm much fonder of "Civilian" than
> GFaD), but the article seemed to point out a competition that, to my
> ears, wasn't there (or couldn't match up to our boys).

My sense was that it was more a laid back softball league competition than
anything that aggressive. I remember a similar "fight" between John Sebastian
and Ray Manzarek, as they looked and sounded similar (well, Ray thought they
sounded similar, I think he was being kind to his singing voice a bit, though I
do like his solo stuff just fine).

> Thank God Gentle
> Giant didn't have someone like Phil Collins to lead the band into
> mediocrity after Steve Hackett left...

Just listening to early Hackett solo stuff the other day. God I love Please
Don't Touch!

>
>
>         The reason I'm asking, of course, is because I was born in 1978 and
> missed all my favorite bands in their prime (sniff). Here's a thought:
> Since King Biscuit released the concert of their GG show, shouldn't
> there be some video footage of that show left? How come there hasn't
> been any concert videos of GG? I would love to *see* their relentless
> instrument-switching and stage antics that I hear of on the group and
> the website.

there is some floating around- you out there, Richard?
still,
dg
np: GG: IaGH

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:57:19 -0700
From: "Scott Steele" 
Subject: gg: How we listen to CDs

>I've noticed that for "older" music (ie, music that I'm already
familiar with), I listen to the CDs straight through, but for music that is new to me, I always put it on "random".  There's nothing better than putting 5 new CDs in the player and waiting to see what comes out.

This standpoint is mine too, and it was reinforced for me this weekend when I listened to AtT and 3F back to back - the randomizer wasn't coming back to them as often as I wished.  - S.

np:  Rush, Moving Pictures

scottst@ohsu.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 13:11:54 +0000
From: Diana Green 
Subject: re:gg: the Bass-ics

hail and descending levels in the coffee cup;
    I just finished playing In A glass House and had to drop a line to
say how splendidly tense, crunchy and perfect the bass line is in the
title cut!
    YEAH!
still,
dg
now in state of happy awed silence apart from the clicking and clacking
of the keys...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 14:34:28 -0400
From: "Stephen Shores @ work :P" 
Subject: not much gg: Gentle Giant vs. Genesis- the fight of a lifetime!

Diana Green wrote:
> hail and caffeine;

Much needed, thank you. The M&M's I'm enjoying are wearing off.

> to Genesis, as to it being a race which of them would hit it big, as it were,
> since they were right next to each other in most album bins.

	Doh! That was a dumb question of me. They're right next to each other
in my CD collection too. Something that simple didn't occur to me, as I
forgot my Quiktrip mug this morning and missed out on my essential
morning cappuccino goodness. Sigh...

> My sense was that it was more a laid back softball league competition than
> anything that aggressive. 

	I was envisioning something like "The Battle Of Epping Forest" (now
playing) with epic-length songs and vast instrumentation instead of
clubs and chains. Heh heh, *that* would be funny. Sort of like Celebrity
Deathmatch with prog-rock icons? OK, I'm weird, I know. :) I'm going
away now. 

Stephen
- -- 
  It's Stephen Shores!  Available in three fun varieties: 
sshores@orthotrac.com (at work), stephenshores@hotmail.com 
   (at home), and www.weaselsnout.com! Collect 'em all!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 21:30:12 +0200
From: Yehuda Kotton 
Subject: gg: Present's new album samples

Hi, 

 Roger Triagaux has uploaded some samples to his webpage from Present's
next album which was recorded here in Tel-Aviv earlier this year.
http://www.totalzoo.com/present/cd_N6.htm

Have fun,
Yehuda

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 15:06:08 -0300
From: "Daniel V.Gomes" 
Subject: gg: Re: MUtantes

hey Helton (tudo bem aí?)

> Looks like America is going into Mutantesmania ...
> Recently, Rolling Stone magazine gave 4 stars to their first 3 albums and I found the
> following reviews at
> _Dusty Groove America_ site ( http://www.dustygroove.com/brazilcd.htm ).
>

I honestly didn't like early Mutantes very much. Though, I really loved
"Tudo Foi Feito Pelo Sol" and "AeoZ". The last is surely IMHO the
best prog rock made in our land in the 70s. Obviously inspired in
Yes and Genesis, it had amazing playing and great song writing.
Even though the lyrics were horrible.  :-) I just recall seeing
Sergio Dias Batista (singer, guitars) saying Gentle Giant was one
of his favorite bands.  I tried to send Nick and Bill , Mutantes
mp3s , but well my ISP was not fast enough, so I didn't get to.
I hope Mutantes are recognized as the very talented band they
are.

seeya
Daniel
- --
[[Daniel V.Gomes (aka Aragorn)]] [[ email : jcg@laser.com.br]]
" There is a darkness greater than the one we fight. It is the
darkness of the soul that has lost its way. Greater than the death
of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams Against this foe
we can never surrender.... " (J. Michael Straczynski)
[[ http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/8551 ]]Personal Page

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 15:50:12 -0400
From: "Stephen Shores @ work :P" 
Subject: gg: Re: ELP reprise

Dan Weese wrote:
> 
> >Yes! I find that argument about "honor vs. plagiarism" annoying. If the
> >cover has merit, let the argument rest. ELP's covers of classical music are
> >great!
> 
> An apocryphal story has it that when ELP did their first version of Fanfare
> for the Common Man, for the Works album, they took it to Aaron Copland for
> his blessing.  As it happened, Copland knew of ELP, and scolded them for
> taking a too-literal rendering of his exuberant work.  They went back, and
> re-did it with more of their characteristic sturm-und-drang, to the delight
> of Copland.  I suspect that Daniel Barrett could confirm or deny that story.

	Sounds good. Dan, any ideas?

> My favourite memory of that concert was the orchestra warming up, curiously.
>   The violins, an oboe, cellos in fifths, the whole thing was rich with
> possibility and WAY TOO LOUD.   The sound quality was magnificent.  There's
> a famous picture of ELP at Soldier Field, standing in front of that classic
> facade.

	Is that the picture on the Works cover or it it available somewhere
else?

Stephen
- -- 
  It's Stephen Shores!  Available in three fun varieties: 
sshores@orthotrac.com (at work), stephenshores@hotmail.com 
   (at home), and www.weaselsnout.com! Collect 'em all!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 16:06:50 EDT
From: WhytePunk@aol.com
Subject: gg: Genesis, Gabriel, Collins

      I think my boss was right back in '83 when he said "you always have to 
be a rebel don't you?". It seems my opinion always falls to the left of the 
popular opinion at least where the list is concerned. Of course now you know 
I will say that I enjoy Genesis with Phil as the frontman, at least the ten 
year span from 76 to 86. Perhaps after 86 my taste had changed or they were 
indeed to "poppy" for even my forgiving tastes. I think their are quite a few 
wonderful songs that aren't necessarily the "sell-outs" that some have 
portrayed them to be (no offense meant here and I realize these may be 
exceptions).  Some of my favorites that I believe fit this category are 
'Squonk", "Dodo/Lurker", "Home By The Sea" (and 2nd HBTS) and "Land Of 
Confusion" which to me are just very powerful songs. Granted the title cut 
from Abacab was played to death as was "No Reply at All" but I think that 
release as a whole was very well put together and I enjoyed every track on it 
for what it was...pop, prog, ballad or otherwise! I hate to categorize music 
like that because as a whole I thought Abacab just "worked", whatever it was 
categorized as. Also, even though the song "Mama" was worn out, that too was 
a powerful cut and that whole release worked almost as well as Abacab IMHO. 
      I'd like to point out that Peter Gabriel (who I also love) was being 
produced by the same guy who did Kiss' "Destroyer" lp when he released 
"Solisbury Hill" in 77. I would think that would be blasphemy in these 
circles!...LOL...Well, again I was called the "Kiss Kid" back in '75 when I 
was just 16 years old, so of course I can see why Peter would want to do 
that!  Hahaha!  But seriously I think Pete's almost as *guilty* as Phil and 
the boys with wanting some commercial success as songs like "Games Without 
Frontiers" and "Shock the Monkey" led up to the very commercial "So" release, 
which I enjoyed also (sorry for the run-on here). I for one was VERY happy 
that both Gabriel and Collins enjoyed success after their departure from one 
another even if they "sold out". Personally I don't look at it that way. I 
look at it as them having enough foresite and a  feel for music that enabled 
them to continue through our ever-changing times. I wish GG was able to pull 
off something similar to be quite honest! I apologize if I'm coming off as 
adversarial, it's not my intent. I'm just offering another side (I dug "3 
Sides Live" also!) or another perspective perhaps. Maybe it's that I was a 
relative "late comer" where age and exposure are concerned and that could be 
one reason for why Phil and commercial success doesn't bother me so much. I'm 
grateful to have had the opportunity to enjoy all of it!
Neil  <---- what a sap!   ....LOL      ; ])

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 17:09:11 -0400
From: "Gary Citro" 
Subject: gg: Floyd/Waters, GORGG

I fought myself not to do this, but I really had to send a message that if
you are a Floyd or Waters fan *AT ALL*, you must go and see the latest Roger
Waters tour.

I've seen every Floyd and Waters related tour SINCE 1974, and *musically
speaking*, this was the best BY FAR.  I credit some of this to the advances
in music technology which make it easier to faithfully reproduce the sound
of the studio albums.
There is a great dose of Floyd (from Dark Side on)  with some real surprises
covering that period, Waters is in excellent voice and is really enjoying
himself, and the band is perfect.  Even the uninitiated in the crowd found
some real enjoyment with his lesser known solo stuff.

Please, please, don't let any negative experiences you may have had in the
past about any Waters live show keep you from experiencing this one!

ObGG: Looks like the GORGG fest really is coming along!
I look forward to meeting many on this list!  It is already a "happening" so
globies get your tickets and reservations now!
Thanks to Bert and others for keeping the flame alive!

Gary Citro

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 18:17:34 -0400
From: "drj_saro" 
Subject: gg: Re: Gentle Giant versus Genesis?

From: Stephen Shores @ work :P 

>Since King Biscuit released the concert of their GG show, shouldn't
>there be some video footage of that show left? 


uhhhh, how does King Biscuit translate into "there must be video"?
KBFH was a radio show!

thank you for your time and attention.

Julius J. SAROKA
drj_saro@neo.rr.com
Cuyahoga Falls OHIO

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 18:27:54 -0400
From: "drj_saro" 
Subject: Re: not much gg: Gentle Giant vs. Genesis- the fight of a lifetime!

From: Stephen Shores @ work :P 
> I was envisioning something like "The Battle Of Epping Forest" (now
>playing) with epic-length songs and vast instrumentation instead of
>clubs and chains. Heh heh, *that* would be funny. Sort of like Celebrity
>Deathmatch with prog-rock icons? OK, I'm weird, I know. :) I'm going
>away now.


_that_ doesn't make you weird, it just makes you _silly_.  (it's the _other_
stuff that makes you weird) so, you're a member of the club now. (but you
have to promise not to beat anybody with it.).

thank you for your time and attention.

Julius J. SAROKA
drj_saro@neo.rr.com
Cuyahoga Falls OHIO

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 20:19:11 -0400
From: "drj_saro" 
Subject: gg: The Hunger Site Home - Donate Food for Free to Give to Feed Hungry People in th

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BEE36D.9BD7BCA0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

i apologize in advance to anyone who feels that posting this URL is
inappropriate, but even as though i am a cynical bastard, this seems like a
"good thing", so flame me if you must, but click on the site anyway.


http://www.thehungersite.com/

thank you for your time and attention.

Julius J. SAROKA
drj_saro@neo.rr.com
Cuyahoga Falls OHIO


- ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BEE36D.9BD7BCA0
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="The Hunger Site Home - Donate Food for Free to Give to Feed Hungry People in the World.url"

[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://www.thehungersite.com/
Modified=E097646E8EE3BE0179

- ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BEE36D.9BD7BCA0--

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 21:29:44 EDT
From: Dokwebb@aol.com
Subject: gg: Birthday Boy, Link Wray, GfaD review, MOJO

Saw on Sonicnet where Ian turned 52 today!  My, my, aren't we quite becoming 
the middle aged.  New Tull CD in a couple of weeks!!

>Mark L. Potts
>The God of Thunder

>np: Link Wray - Bullshot

Is this the Line CD Mark?  A great one!  Do you know the title of the last 
uncredited 'live' track?  Actually the last 2 tracks are not listed...

Claudio wrote:

>Mr. Shores has forced me to find a box, open it and share the contents with 
>all of you.  This is a review of GFaD I wrote for the Colorado Springs 
>Gazette-Telegraph which appeared October 6, 1978....

Ah, I nearly wept...  Thanks Claudio
Hey... we're the same age!  HUH?

Si wrote:

>Q magazine has lost it's way big time, imho. If you want a serious music 
>magazine, check out Q's stablemate, Mojo. 

I agree about MOJO... the best overall Music Mag in the business!  Leave it 
to the British to achieve this level of excellence.  They actually had a 
review of Porcupine Tree's latest a couple of issue's back...  Which speaking 
of PT.. look for a limited double vinyl reissue of Yellow Hedgerow Dreamscape 
in late Oct. or Nov. from The Wild Places.  For info contact - Michael Piper 
at ACEOFDISCS@aol.com.

Here's hoping the GG reissues continue to get off the ground.  Thanks Dan for 
all the effort!

dokster

np:  Pete Krebs and the Gossamer Wings, Sweet Ona Rose   (who is this guy 
Scott)?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 18:40:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: JohnEric 
Subject: Re: gg: Re: ELP reprise

Ah yes, another ELP post that deserves attention.  ELP did for selected
classics what other tribute albums (like the one done for KC, GG, ELP, and
Genesis) did for prog rock.  Why complain about Emerson's classic
tributes?  What's with the double standard?  I like tributes, or some of
them, and give the nod of approval for attempts I don't even like.  Why? 
Because they are exactly what they are supposed to be ... tributes.  That
is correct about Copland by the way.  Listen to the newer version of
"Pictures ..." on the "In the Hot Seat" album.  It is closer to the way
Mussorgsky wrote it, and in Dolby surround.  Awesome!

JEE

- --- "Stephen Shores @ work :P"  wrote:
> Dan Weese wrote:
> > 
> > >Yes! I find that argument about "honor vs. plagiarism" annoying. If
> the
> > >cover has merit, let the argument rest. ELP's covers of classical
> music are
> > >great!
> > 
> > An apocryphal story has it that when ELP did their first version of
> Fanfare
> > for the Common Man, for the Works album, they took it to Aaron Copland
> for
> > his blessing.  As it happened, Copland knew of ELP, and scolded them
> for
> > taking a too-literal rendering of his exuberant work.  They went back,
> and
> > re-did it with more of their characteristic sturm-und-drang, to the
> delight
> > of Copland.  I suspect that Daniel Barrett could confirm or deny that
> story.
> 
> 	Sounds good. Dan, any ideas?
> 
> > My favourite memory of that concert was the orchestra warming up,
> curiously.
> >   The violins, an oboe, cellos in fifths, the whole thing was rich
> with
> > possibility and WAY TOO LOUD.   The sound quality was magnificent. 
> There's
> > a famous picture of ELP at Soldier Field, standing in front of that
> classic
> > facade.
> 
> 	Is that the picture on the Works cover or it it available somewhere
> else?
> 
> Stephen
> -- 
>   It's Stephen Shores!  Available in three fun varieties: 
> sshores@orthotrac.com (at work), stephenshores@hotmail.com 
>    (at home), and www.weaselsnout.com! Collect 'em all!
> 


_____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 18:47:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: JohnEric 
Subject: Re: gg: The Hunger Site Home - Donate Food for Free to Give to Feed Hungry People in th

No flames from me.  Go on, be socially aware ... see if I care!  I've
checked it out.  My wife and I are interested in helping out with genuine
needs, wherever.  We won't give to most organizations, and we check out
the ones that interest us before spending or sending anything.  By the
way, do you know of a web site for people who want to donate (that is
contribute to a specific fund) livestock for families in need of helping
themselves?  I thought there was something called the "Heffer Project",
but I could be wrong.  I can't find a web site for it.

JEE 

- --- drj_saro  wrote:
> i apologize in advance to anyone who feels that posting this URL is
> inappropriate, but even as though i am a cynical bastard, this seems
> like a
> "good thing", so flame me if you must, but click on the site anyway.
> 
> 
> http://www.thehungersite.com/
> 
> thank you for your time and attention.
> 
> Julius J. SAROKA
> drj_saro@neo.rr.com
> Cuyahoga Falls OHIO
> 
> 

> ATTACHMENT part 2 application/octet-stream name=The Hunger Site Home -
Donate Food for Free to Give to Feed Hungry People in the World.url


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 18:58:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: JohnEric 
Subject: gg: GG vs Genesis?

It's too bad that Genesis didn't pull a "Civilian" like GG did after
"Giant for a Day".  that one from GG was an appreciated curtain call. 
Instead, from Genesis, we got "Calling All Stations".  Snore.  A friend of
mine called it "very average top forty stuff" ... 

JEE

- --- Dan Weese  wrote:
> >One of the Q reviews that casglatze@t-online.de (casglatze) posted
> >mentioned that "GG lost out to Genesis on the popularity stakes".
> 
> I was recently reading some interviews with Phil Collins, where he
> finally 
> discussed the breakup with Peter Gabriel.  He say Genesis, right from
> the 
> start, was desperately trying to get a breakthrough single, believe that
> if 
> you will.  The combination of Gabriel and Collins, while creating
> wonderful 
> art rock, was not creating the financial success.  It was only after
> Gabriel 
> left that either created any big hits on their own terms.
> 
> I enjoyed the Genesis that followed, up to and including Duke.  What 
> followed was the most simple-minded pop imaginable.  My heart was always
> 
> more attuned to Gabriel, and I confess to certain feelings of
> bitterness: I 
> recall seeing "We Can't Dance" in the shops, and commenting to my 
> girlfriend, "It's a long way from Dance on a Volcano to We Can't Dance"
> 
> Gentle Giant went through the same transmogrification as Genesis, IMHO. 
> 
> Both bands early work was done in the name of musicianship, with a long 
> period of intense and brilliant showmanship, followed sadly by a period
> of 
> thrashing about in search of some compromise between their artistic
> vision 
> and commercial success.
> 
> ++++
> 
> Allow me a brief diatribe on Emerson Lake and Palmer.  I bought the box
> set 
> some years back, which covers everything of merit.  Sure, ELP was
> bombastic, 
> Emerson was pompous and over-the-top.  Sure they stole about 50% of
> their 
> licks, most classical composers did, it honors the work, not steals it. 
> 
> That's a concept I reject utterly.  What I find interesting about ELP
> was 
> their musical heritage.  Essentially no-one in rock and roll was as 
> influenced by classical music as ELP:  the blues had a baby, and they
> called 
> it rock and roll, but ELP was attempting to take classical forward into
> a 
> world of rock.  Granted, the results were often ridiculous, often campy,
> but 
> the occasional moments of brilliance were worth the bombast and organ 
> destroying.  I saw them live in Chicago, with the orchestra.  I knew I
> was 
> looking at something one-of-a-kind.  ELP would almost go broke on that
> tour, 
> the orchestra was dismissed later.
> 
> My favourite ELP was the Tarkus LP.  As a kid raised in church, that LP 
> opened the hell-raising vistas possible on a Hammond organ.  If I am not
> 
> mistaken, Eddie Offord engineered it, at Advision.  Eddy Offord was my
> idol 
> in those days.
> 
> nd: coffee my wife brought back from Guatemala
> np:  Art In America, eponymous
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________________________
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> 


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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:35:09 EDT
From: Claudio666@aol.com
Subject: Re: gg: Re: ELP reprise

In a message dated 8/10/99 7:41:09 PM Mountain Daylight Time, 
john_97223@yahoo.com writes:

<<  Why complain about Emerson's classic
 tributes?  What's with the double standard? >>

What double standard?  Early on, ELP didn't acknowledge anything.  This was 
no "tribute". It was a total rip and they hoped no one would notice.  Please 
correct me if I'm wrong...

Claudio
n.d. Crested Butte Red Lady Ale
n.p. The Rockies scoring 1 run AGAIN!!!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:37:53 -0400
From: "David and Stacey Shur" 
Subject: gg: End of the Station

> It's too bad that Genesis didn't pull a "Civilian" like GG did after
> "Giant for a Day".  that one from GG was an appreciated curtain call.
> Instead, from Genesis, we got "Calling All Stations".  Snore.  A friend of
> mine called it "very average top forty stuff"

Average with a few moments of brilliance- there are a few passages in which
the melody line surprises one, but just a few.........   -David Eric

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:45:45 EDT
From: Claudio666@aol.com
Subject: Re: gg: Genesis, Gabriel, Collins

In a message dated 8/10/99 2:09:12 PM Mountain Daylight Time, 
WhytePunk@aol.com writes:

<<   I'd like to point out that Peter Gabriel (who I also love) was being 
 produced by the same guy who did Kiss' "Destroyer" lp when he released 
 "Solisbury Hill" in 77. I would think that would be blasphemy in these 
 circles!.. >>

Bob Ezrin had a nice track record before Gabriel's 1st, and it was Gabriel 
who sought HIM out (though Steve Hunter might have played a hand), for the 
very reason that he produced some fine rock and roll records having little to 
do with "prog" at the time.  It's a concept called "distancing" and it worked 
fabulously.

Claudio

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 19:49:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: JohnEric 
Subject: gg: Re: End of the Station

I think it was the lyrics that my friend was reacting to, more than
anything else.  I echo that, although I believe we've covered this ground
in discussion before now.

JEE

- --- David and Stacey Shur  wrote:
> > It's too bad that Genesis didn't pull a "Civilian" like GG did after
> > "Giant for a Day".  that one from GG was an appreciated curtain call.
> > Instead, from Genesis, we got "Calling All Stations".  Snore.  A
> friend of
> > mine called it "very average top forty stuff"
> 
> Average with a few moments of brilliance- there are a few passages in
> which
> the melody line surprises one, but just a few.........   -David Eric
> 
> 


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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:47:03 EDT
From: Claudio666@aol.com
Subject: Re: gg: Prog Toto?

In a message dated 8/10/99 2:30:44 AM Mountain Daylight Time, fbc@idp.dk 
writes:

<<  They made the soundtrack for "Dune", and that gave
 another 
 glimpse of what they could have become. >>

Best thing they ever did.  Oops, sorry Bert, was that a "me too"??

Claudio

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 20:03:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: JohnEric 
Subject: Re: gg: Re: ELP reprise

OK, I'll say it ... you are wrong, Claudio666.  The mere fact that ELP
listed Mussorgsky's name as having written "Pictures" was enough for me to
run out and buy the classic version.  I had no trouble finding the names
of classic authors on all of their tribute/adaptations.  I knew Emerson's
knack with the classics, and expected him to adapt them whenever he
fancied one enough to give tribute.  Perhaps a few folks out there did not
know this about Kieth, however, I was fan enough to read anything I could
get my hands on about ELP.  I even remember Fripp's cold shoulder directed
at Kieth's adaptations.  I remember muttering that Robert should keep his
opinions to himself, especially after inflicting "Earthbound" on all of us
Crimson fans.  That's right ... I felt ripped off after buying that album,
despite "Groon".  Back to the ELP issue at hand -- All in all I've found
no other group that could TRIBUTE to the classics the way ELP could.  I
sincerely wish Kieth and his parot much happiness and whistling bliss
together.

Peace.

JEE

- --- Claudio666@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 8/10/99 7:41:09 PM Mountain Daylight Time, 
> john_97223@yahoo.com writes:
> 
> <<  Why complain about Emerson's classic
>  tributes?  What's with the double standard? >>
> 
> What double standard?  Early on, ELP didn't acknowledge anything.  This
> was 
> no "tribute". It was a total rip and they hoped no one would notice. 
> Please 
> correct me if I'm wrong...
> 
> Claudio
> n.d. Crested Butte Red Lady Ale
> n.p. The Rockies scoring 1 run AGAIN!!!
> 


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 01:06:25 EDT
From: WhytePunk@aol.com
Subject: Re: gg: Genesis, Gabriel, Collins

In a message dated 08/10/1999 10:45:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Claudio666 
writes:

<< <<   I'd like to point out that Peter Gabriel (who I also love) was being 
  produced by the same guy who did Kiss' "Destroyer" lp when he released 
  "Solisbury Hill" in 77. I would think that would be blasphemy in these 
  circles!.. >>
 
 Bob Ezrin had a nice track record before Gabriel's 1st, and it was Gabriel 
who sought HIM out (though Steve Hunter might have played a hand), for the 
very reason that he produced some fine rock and roll records having little to 
do with "prog" at the time.  It's a concept called "distancing" and it worked 
fabulously.
 
 Claudio >>

Thanx Claudio....Yes, I believe Ezrin also produced Alice Cooper's ''Welcome 
To My Nightmare" lp before Kiss' "Destroyer" if I'm not mistaken (It's too 
late to dig out the lp's!).
I also enjoyed those lp's and for the most part they were very successful 
productions, but had to withstand critical opposition to the ballads within. 
Those ballads probably had the most commercial value, namely "Only Women 
Bleed" and "Beth". I guess commercial success that's achieved by an artist 
doing something different from their "norm" is viewed by many as being 
"taboo". It seems to me that GG, Gabriel, and Genesis/Collins at least all 
attempted to make a run at the golden ring by becoming somewhat commercial 
but with varying degrees of success. I think Collins obtained the most 
success and also drew the most criticism. 
In the same vein I recently read a review about my favorite band, "The 
Tubes", concerning a live performance of theirs this past month. The review 
ended by saying "...and the set ended with the weak "Talk To Ya Later"."  Of 
course their biggest hit is their weakest song, it only stands to 
reason!!!...LOL...I think there is a moral to this story somewhere in all of 
this!!!     ; )       Maybe it goes something like this:

The general public is moronic.
If the general public likes this, it must be moronic.
If I like this, I'm just like the general public.
....Egads!!!...Ummmmm, I'm not even going to go there!!!.....LOL        

John Q. Citizen  ...not!!!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 01:52:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: mammienun@webtv.net
Subject: Re: gg: Floyd/Waters, GORGG

I just got home from the R. Waters show in Albany, NY. Great sound, but
who couldn't play Floyd note for note? If I wanted to see Floyd I
wouldn't have gone to this show. The best stuff was the limited amount
of solo material. Cheesy lights and effects...I give this tour 3 yawns.
If you are a big fan, by all means check it out. If not...don't go too
far out of your way. I don't regret going...hey, now I can say, " I've
seen Roger Waters". Whoopty mammie-doo!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 02:49:12 EDT
From: SPBrader@aol.com
Subject: Re: gg: Re: ELP reprise

John Eric wrote:

<<  I remember muttering that Robert should keep his
 opinions to himself, especially after inflicting "Earthbound" on all of us
 Crimson fans.  That's right ... I felt ripped off after buying that album,
 despite "Groon".  >>

Don't understand where the rip-off is. The music is great and, imo, the lo-fi 
adds a certain something to the atmosphere. It was priced at virtually half 
normal retail on release to reflect this and Fripp's subsequent refusal to 
reissue it on CD hardly suggests a rip-of merchant.
I actually prefer Earthbound over the 'Live at Jacksonville' CD.

Simon

------------------------------

End of on-reflection-digest V1 #1810
************************************

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