on-reflection-digest Wednesday, September 29 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1887 Re: gg: Collage vs development (re: geir's post) RE: gg: Collage vs development (re: geir's post) Re: gg: Genesis - Turn It On Again gg: Re: Yes, "The Ladder" gg: new Genesis song, Freeman stuff, etc. etc. gg: GG: Collage and development gg: Carpet Crawlers no gg: Krazy Kats Re: gg: Collage vs development (re: geir's post) gg: GG: Deluge and Civility? (or Collage and development?) gg: GG: Eggs v. College? (or...huh?) gg: Supersister gg: Re: KC Live in Mexico City technical Re: gg: Supersister gg: RE: V-Bert Re: gg: Collage vs development (re: geir's post) gg: Re: Newbies, Keneally and Cats nogg: the fireman gg: RE: V-Bert Re: gg: Carpet Crawlers gg: Keneally's NGaM; better than a Mellotron; Strawberry Fields; odes; semi-lurker; new Yes; Magma; Bert ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 08:56:43 -0400 From: Bob Angilly Subject: Re: gg: Collage vs development (re: geir's post) > But is it just me? Am I the only one who HATES that kind of > laissez-faire composing? Anyone can stick 27 sections of music one > after the other. I detest pre-Köhntarkösz Magma for that very reason. > I mean, who can honestly say that MDK [or even worse, Riah Sahiltaahk] is > a good composition? I can for one! If you can take 27 sections of intense and powerful music and blend them into one majestic suite. This carried over into the various live performances of MDK (and this piece is the most powerful in any of their live albums). It's one thing to take a lot of random noise and paste it together quite another when each of the sections is a very well done composition in it's own right. Not every musical idea needs to be dragged to death to fill up the 6-8 minute minimum for a prog song. This kind of composition is more typical of the later material (where they tried somewhat unsuccessfully to have that big pop single). I'd rather listen to music that has too many good ideas than too few. > It is a unique work, no doubt whatsoever, but only in > a Christo-wrapping-Reichstag-house kind of way. > > > > Thoughts? > > -- > 65 > Zn > 30 - -- Tickle me! :-) Elmo __ __ .' '.' `. _.-| o | o |-._ .~ `.__.'.__.'^ ~. .~ ^ / \ ^ ~. \-._^ ^| | ^_.-/ `\ `-._ \___/ ^_.-' /' `\_ `--...--' /' `-.._______..-' /\ /\ __/ \__ | |/ /_ .'^ ^ `. .' `__\ .' ^ ^ `.__.'^ .\ \ .' ^ . ^ . ^ .' \/ / / ^ \'.__.' | ^ /| ^ | ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 06:40:40 -0700 From: William Tindall Subject: RE: gg: Collage vs development (re: geir's post) Hail wacky raconteurs (sorry for the theft, Toby, but it's just too good) I'll be in New York, and may require babysitting, but I refuse to tickle Bob Angilly. Just not gonna do it, wouldn't be prudent. Bill T ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 15:40:35 +0200 From: "Frank B. Carvalho" Subject: Re: gg: Genesis - Turn It On Again This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF0A80.359CB470 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >You can hear and download MP3 and Real-Audio versions of this from >http://www.stevehackett.com/albums/turniton.htm It seems that they are not very experienced in working with frames on that homepage. Ah-ha, haaaa, ahhaahahaaaaahaaa.... Frank - ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF0A80.359CB470 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: gg: Genesis - Turn It On Again

>You can hear and download MP3 and Real-Audio = versions of this from
>http://www.stevehackett.com/albums/turniton.htm

It seems that they are not very experienced in = working with frames on
that homepage.

Ah-ha, haaaa, ahhaahahaaaaahaaa....

Frank

- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF0A80.359CB470-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 07:02:50 -0700 (PDT) From: JohnEric Subject: gg: Re: Yes, "The Ladder" I felt the overall complexity of the new Yes was quite good, and well performed, but any reviews should be tempered by an emotional content statement (Perhaps on the front cover ... oooo I'm bad ... somebody slap me). JohnEric - --- "Drew W. Eaton" wrote: > Totally funny John! I love it! > Drew > (who likely won't get the new Yes) > > >In short ... for those of you waffling on the new Yes -- It's a bright > >shiny pleasant offering, full of fun, frolic, and lots of love. Be > happy. > > Can you say Yes for me? I knew you could :) > > > ===== http://www.mindspring.com/~jjellison/nightsky.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:15:42 -0400 From: Richard Hilton Subject: gg: new Genesis song, Freeman stuff, etc. etc. At 6:00 AM -0700 9/29/99, Tindall wrote: >Anyone interested in hearing a newly recorded version of Carpet >Crawlers, done by Gabriel, Hackett, Rutherford, Banks, and Collins, >check it out here: I am listening to this new version right now, and I've got chills. I love this. I think it sounds fantastic. I was surprised by the faster tempo at first, and now it sounds right. As for the selections on this "best of" CD, I think they had to be drunk to come up with these. "Mama" but no "Cinema Show"? "Invisible Touch" and no "Watcher of the Skies"? The only piece from "Selling England" is "I Know What I Like"? NOTHING from "Foxtrot"? "I Can't Dance"????? If you gave me two copies of this thing, I'd throw 'em both away....but this new "Carpet Crawlers" is wonderful. Hammer used a Moog-modified Freeman on "The First Seven Days". He may have used mellotron as well, but the strings that open the record are Freeman. Yes, he also used the Freeman live on the "Oh Yeah" tour, which featured live performances of "The First Seven Days" material. If Julian's bringing his cat to the Heartland, I'm bringing my lawyer. 8^) Actually, I'd need to check on their pets policy, but I'd be surprised if they'd allow one in there...... All good thoughts to Bert on his recovery. I will be very sad if he doesn't make the GORGG. Best, Rich Richard Hilton/Boppybop Toons Inc. http://members.aol.com/hiltonius/BTI_page.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 16:32:23 +0200 From: "Geir Hasnes" Subject: gg: GG: Collage and development Gentle Giant had two composers who knew about development, and a third one (Phil) who encouraged this strongly. The development bit of their music is what makes them sound so incredibly consistent. This means that bits that are wildly dissimilar often share small motives, like in Wreck (find all occurrencies of three tones running downwards in seconds), or it means that they are driven towards each other to create a contrapuntal effect, as in Way of Life (two different themes are presented, first one and the second underneath it, and these shift throughout). Nevertheless, they could be collage oriented, too, but that is probably more because they had to make short pieces. On Reflection, for instance, is a collage of a motet that is developed as a fugue, heard as a canon in the last instrumental bit, and a folky piece and some percussive and choral writing, where voice and percussion are shifted. It is not really a canon either because the instrumental parts are in two different keys, but this is only a stylistic problem and not a musical. The piece could have been a fugue and presents its material as such, but does not develop as a fugue. Rather, Kerry collates different styles, but uses the same thematic material, for instance the falling row of five tones as a start of both A and B section. Instrumental interludes use four of the five tones, for instance. But the B-part: "I remember..." etc., is not developed in itself, which is a shame, not because it sounds trivial or bad, but because I as a listener know what they COULD hav! e done with it. The only development is heaping up instruments in a minimalist way. Therefore, the verse repeats itself too much, and I would have either dropped the third round of the second appearance of B, or changed it in some way. The reason to talk about collages is firstly because I happen to react because my mind is set waiting for the development - and it doesn't come. So I feel punctured (like a tyre, don't know if you English speaking people use that metaphor). The second reason is that I am moved by the themas and I am set in a certain mood and then something new is presented. This may be OK and therefore I like to hear music many times before I make a judgment. Gentle Giant crashes a lot of themes, but they manage to put it all together in the end, and that makes it worthwhile to listen to - you simply like things because the tension set up by different themes is resolved in the end. And that is also because you have listened to the piece many times. The third is: You know how this could have sounded with proper work behind it! Yes developed the themes in Close to the Edge, but did not in Tales of Topographic Oceans, and therefore the latter sounds more patchy. But most prog acts don't do this. PFM learnt much of GG, but not how to develop, and the most wonderful pieces are left to their own, for instance on the super-patchy Photos of Ghosts. I happen to like music that is consistent, and therefore I enjoy a lot of poppier prog. Later Kayak falls in that group, and also Treason by Gryphon. One can find collage in classical composers too, just think of Charles Ives. However, they often had an ear for wighing the various bits against each other. This is often lacking in lots of ambitious prog bands. I happen to dislike so-called prog when one of the parts is "clever" and the others are not. Like some 11/8 rhythm, which is clever, but with 6/8 in A minor and 5/8 in G, which makes very boring repetitious listening. Some good examples of development when the writer is unaware of what he is doing are I am the Walrus and Hey Bulldog by John Lennon. This is world class development technique. There was a reason why Beatles went to the top. Of course there is a musical reason behind every act that goes to the top! Simon and Garfunkel was tremendously progressive in the 60s, and Simon's writing and feel on the guitar is fantastic. For instance. See you in NY. Geir ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 16:19:23 +0200 From: "Frank B. Carvalho" Subject: gg: Carpet Crawlers This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF0A85.A0D322A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >The CD contains 17 tracks from various points in the band's four >decade history, along with a completely new version of "The Carpet >Crawlers" which was recorded by Peter Gabriel, Steve Hackett, Phil >Collins, Mike Rutherford & Tony Banks. > >You can hear and download MP3 and Real-Audio versions of this from >http://www.stevehackett.com/albums/turniton.htm Strange. It still does something to me to hear this version. Yes, it's a true Genesis pop production (and we don't like that, do we?). But to hear Gabriel and Collins take turns on lead and backing while Hackett is making interesting soundscapes in the background is still something that sends shivers down the spine. That combination is still very strong. I wouldn't be the least surprised if they got a smash hit out of this recording. And maybe it may turn newer fans onto their older stuff. Well, one is still allowed to dream... I don't see the Duke analogy at all. This is more the sound of the last two Genesis albums, and also a bit like some of the songs from Darktown. If it had been like Duke, we would have in-your-face gated drums and harsh synths, and much less of the airy-spacey sounds floating around. (BTW I LIKE gated drums and sawtooth waves). Definitely worth a download Cheers Frank Carvalho - ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF0A85.A0D322A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Carpet Crawlers

>The CD contains 17 tracks from various points in = the band's four
>decade history, along with a completely new = version of "The Carpet
>Crawlers" which was recorded by Peter = Gabriel, Steve Hackett, Phil
>Collins, Mike Rutherford & Tony = Banks.
>
>You can hear and download MP3 and Real-Audio = versions of this from
>http://www.stevehackett.com/albums/turniton.htm

Strange. It still does something to me to hear this = version. Yes, it's a
true Genesis pop production (and we don't like that, = do we?).
But to hear Gabriel and Collins take turns on lead = and backing while Hackett
is making interesting soundscapes in the background = is still something that
sends shivers down the spine. That combination is = still very strong.
I wouldn't be the least surprised if they got a = smash hit out of this recording.
And maybe it may turn newer fans onto their older = stuff. Well, one is still allowed
to dream...

I don't see the Duke analogy at all. This is more the = sound of the last two
Genesis albums, and also a bit like some of the = songs from Darktown.
If it had been like Duke, we would have in-your-face = gated drums and harsh synths,
and much less of the airy-spacey sounds floating = around. (BTW I LIKE gated drums and
sawtooth waves).

Definitely worth a download

Cheers

Frank Carvalho

- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF0A85.A0D322A0-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:22:38 -0400 From: Bert Rubini Subject: no gg: Krazy Kats > >Julian, what's your cat's favorite band? > > My cat Toby goes nuts over Bowie's Earthling CD. His ears go back, and he > runs around madly. > I'm sure some people here will remember a couple of years ago, a thread on the Elephant Talk list about how King Crimson music drives cats crazy (Kathy, beware!). I have definitely noticed this with my cat, ThrakAttak in particular freaks him out. Many people said this was true with their cats, too.... maybe this explains why Dr. J is such a big fan of King Crimson :) (I should point out here that my cat is normally indifferent to music - I haven't noticed any particular reaction to "Earthling" [ at least not from my CAT ]). bert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 07:23:59 PDT From: "Dan Weese" Subject: Re: gg: Collage vs development (re: geir's post) >But is it just me? Am I the only one who HATES that kind of >laissez-faire composing? I've had this discussion IRL with a variety of musicians. IMHO Brand X struck the best balance between the compositional and pastiche approaches to prog, GG being clearly in the compositional camp. Since no musical form springs full grown from the brow of Zeus, prog derives from classical, jazz and rock forms, with a distinct downplaying of the blues aspects of rock and jazz. So the more jazz influence, the more pastiche one sees. Not to say there isn't pastiche in classical, Debussy and Ravel being prime examples, but certain aspects of jazz playing such as Ornette Coleman crept into prog, without the stricter aspects of charts to counterbalance the free-form noodling. In defence of the ad-hoc laissez-faire style of composing, as a synth player of the old school, ( Moogs, Arps, Korgs ), it was really tough to just whip up a really nice set of patches, press a button and expect it to happen again later. Getting the settings right was a bitch unless you had the luxury of a dozen synths all set up beforehand. It really affected what sorts of things you could play and compose. So once you were in a good groove, you'd play modally and jam for a long time on those settings. We weren't jazz players, just a bunch of refugees from a high school band and piano lessons. It was really easy to say, okay, I'm gonna go to Dmin here, then when you hear me try something chromatic, we're going to Amin. It let me hug a chord for a while so the guitar player could noodle for 8 bars. Since the harmony was really clear, the improv almost sounded like composition. This was also a staple of Baroque music as well. >-- 65 Zn 30 \\ \\ >>> // 65 // Zn 30 >-- Zinc-encrusted tweezers ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 09:57:16 -0500 From: DE Johnson Subject: gg: GG: Deluge and Civility? (or Collage and development?) "Geir Hasnes" wrote: >Gentle Giant had two composers who knew about development, and a third one >(Phil) who encouraged this strongly. Hail yes! "The moon is down..." >The development bit of their music is what makes them sound so incredibly >consistent. "At the edge of twilight..." >...You know how this could have sounded with proper work behind it! ...whispering... >...But the B-part: "I remember..." etc., is not developed in itself, which >is a shame, not because it sounds trivial or bad, but because I as a listener >know what they COULD have done with it! The only development is heaping up >instruments in a minimalist way. Therefore, the verse repeats itself too >much, and I would have either dropped the third round of the second appearance >of B, or changed it in some way. Exactly. >Yes developed the themes in Close to the Edge, but did not in Tales of >Topographic Oceans, and therefore the latter sounds more patchy. Yep...and that's why so many people, studied or not, think it's too long. Note...it's kinda funny how 'poppier prog' (as you put it, Geir) tends to be more satisfying (sometimes) because it has to be harmonically structured in to a particular mold (mould? tee hee) to sell. >One can find collage in classical composers too, just think of Charles Ives. ...and Berio. I really enjoyed your post, Geir! Let's keep talking about THE MUSIC. For, _the_life_ is in the music. DJ P.S. Man, I shouldn't even be reading this stuff, not to mention responding to it right now. I have to deliver this timp piece on Friday and, knowing me, I'll be working on it right up to the last minute. Which maxe me think...my latest work might sound a bit like collage if not listened to more than once. The structure, as in the music of my mentor (Roque Cordero), is built upon the development of seemingly 'new' ideas based on the two initial primary themes and their binary counterparts...it's sort-of-a-toccata. P.P.S. But I must have my OR...it's like my morning coffee right now... ...and I don't drink coffee (hahahaha) %()... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:04:55 -0500 From: DE Johnson Subject: gg: GG: Eggs v. College? (or...huh?) Ville V Sinkko wrote: >...it seems to me that the majority of prog acts are collage oriented, >as Geir puts it. The majority of _everything_ is this way IMSNSHO. >But is it just me? Am I the only one who HATES that kind of laissez-faire >composing? Anyone can stick 27 sections of music one after the other. I don't care for that approach either. You can tell pretty quickly if a composer knows her/is stuff, I think, by what they choose to do structurally and harmonically. It doesn't have to be complex, but it does have to work. Collage music sometimes maxe for good car toonz (int.)... DJ/CiViLiAN/Raconteur/le Uncroyable M. Personne Please visit my website and check out some of the soundfiles, etc. at: http://www.raconteurprod.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 19:07:47 +0200 From: "Jan Dubbe" Subject: gg: Supersister Dave Newby:Last question...are there any opinions out there of a Dutch group called Supersister? Greg Walker's catalog says they are "great crazy prog if you like GG". Supersister was a quite unique outfit consisting of great musicians who didn't mind throwing in some Latin (I mean the classic language), Beach boys and (semi)Cockney. They almost never used guitars. They formed as Sweet OK Supersister in The Hague in 1968: Robert-Jan Stips: keyboards, vocals - Ron van Eck: bassguitar, (guitar) - Marco Vrolijk: drums, vocals and Sacha van Geest: flute, vocals. Later, in 1973, Charlie Mariano (saxes) and Herman van Boeyen (drums) joined the band, but the band never reached the level of the first line-up. Even Soft Machine's Elton Dean spent some time in Supersister. Best Albums: Present From Nancy (1970), To The Highest Bidder (1971), Pudding en Gisteren (1972) and Superstarshine Vo. 3 - Best Of -(1973). Pudding en gisteren (= Pudding and Yesterday) has one of the finest covers ever designed in my opinion. Can't really describe it, though. Robert-Jan Stips later joined the Golden Earring and ultimately The Nits with whom he spent some ten years. Actually Stips is gigging with a renewed Supersister line-up every now and then. If you can get your hands on one of the albums I mentioned: don't hesitate! Buy! Greetings to you all np: Gnidrolog: In Spite of Harry's Toenail Tonight Spock's Beard in the town of Hengelo nearby (11 km). I'll go by bicycle for I'll be drinking some De Koninck.. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 13:45:27 -0400 From: Jim Mercer Subject: gg: Re: KC Live in Mexico City technical Hail! I'm in the process of oooooozing King Crimson Live in Mexico City into MP3 format. Of course, I'm doing this for my own educational purposes. I Should have it done by tomorrow at which point I think I'll "store" the filez somewhere on my web server 'cause I'm running out of disk space on my pc (if ya know what I mean). Send a personal email to jim@nantucket.net. > > Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 10:48:39 -0400 > From: Bert Rubini > Subject: gg: no GG: KC live in Mex. technical question > > I know lots of people have downloaded the KC live in Mexico > City media file, does anyone know of a way to convert this > to wav or mp3 format? Something that *doesn't* require a > second computer? > > Alternately, if anyone has a wav or mp3 version of this, > could I get a copy? > > bert > > Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 14:21:46 -0400 > From: "James F. Streeter" > Subject: gg: KC PC to CD > > Hi all, > > I downloaded the King Crimson Live in Mexico file and agree that it is top > notch. I would like to be able to take this file and burn it onto a CD. A > friend of mine who does lots of this kind of thing (all LEGALLY; he doesn't > copyright infringe or do anything else illegal) says he can't find a program > that will convert the file into a format that will allow him to burn it into > a CD. He says that the stats are as follows: > > 64K bps, 44kHz, IPTV, 1hr 7 mins > > Can anyone help me with this problem? Or is there simply no way of going > direct from file to PC? I know I record from analog outputs but I'm trying > to avoid that. Thanks in advance to any and all who can help. Now if we > could only get GG to release some previously unreleased live stuff in the > same manner, we'd have something! :) > > James F. Streeter > Design Engineer > Nuttall Gear > Delroyd Worm Gear Products > P.O. Box 1032 > 2221 Niagara Falls Boulevard > Niagara Falls, NY 14302 > Phone: (716) 731-5180 x239 Fax: (716) 731-9329 > e-mail: nuttall@nuttallgear.com Corporate Web Page: > http://www.nuttallgear.com > Personal e-mail: v015eyjd@buffnet.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 13:58:25 -0400 From: Bob Angilly Subject: Re: gg: Supersister Very good Dutch group, slightly influenced by Frank Zappa. Got the six basic albums as 2 fers on Polydor (all were quite reasonably priced) also of interest "Iskander" (concept album about Alexander the Great with Charlie Mariano), Stars & Stipps (with two guys from Golden Earring) have a live Nits album (put out by Radio Netherlands) which is excellent, and a studio album which is less so. Just picked up a recent Robert Stipps solo effort which is very pop (like the Nits) but well done. Jan Dubbe wrote: > Dave Newby:Last question...are there any opinions out there of a Dutch group > called > Supersister? Greg Walker's catalog says they are "great crazy prog if you > like GG". > Supersister was a quite unique outfit consisting of great musicians who > didn't mind throwing in some Latin (I mean the classic language), Beach boys > and (semi)Cockney. They almost never used guitars. > They formed as Sweet OK Supersister in The Hague in 1968: Robert-Jan Stips: > keyboards, vocals - Ron van Eck: bassguitar, (guitar) - Marco Vrolijk: > drums, vocals and Sacha van Geest: flute, vocals. Later, in 1973, Charlie > Mariano (saxes) and Herman van Boeyen (drums) joined the band, but the band > never reached the level of the first line-up. Even Soft Machine's Elton Dean > spent some time in Supersister. > Best Albums: Present From Nancy (1970), To The Highest Bidder (1971), > Pudding en Gisteren (1972) and Superstarshine Vo. 3 - Best Of -(1973). > Pudding en gisteren (= Pudding and Yesterday) has one of the finest covers > ever designed in my opinion. Can't really describe it, though. > Robert-Jan Stips later joined the Golden Earring and ultimately The Nits > with whom he spent some ten years. Actually Stips is gigging with a renewed > Supersister line-up every now and then. If you can get your hands on one of > the albums I mentioned: don't hesitate! Buy! > > Greetings to you all > np: Gnidrolog: In Spite of Harry's Toenail > Tonight Spock's Beard in the town of Hengelo nearby (11 km). I'll go by > bicycle for I'll be drinking some De Koninck.. - -- Tickle me! :-) Elmo __ __ .' '.' `. _.-| o | o |-._ .~ `.__.'.__.'^ ~. .~ ^ / \ ^ ~. \-._^ ^| | ^_.-/ `\ `-._ \___/ ^_.-' /' `\_ `--...--' /' `-.._______..-' /\ /\ __/ \__ | |/ /_ .'^ ^ `. .' `__\ .' ^ ^ `.__.'^ .\ \ .' ^ . ^ . ^ .' \/ / / ^ \'.__.' | ^ /| ^ | ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 14:34:20 EDT From: MHB1212GG@aol.com Subject: gg: RE: V-Bert Happy Humpday, Just a quick de-lurk, sorry to bug ya's. Talked with Bert this morning, man is he in great spirit. He is up and around, (I caught him in the bathroom), and VERY much looking forward to meeting you all. All I can say is what a gentleman. Keep up the prayers he may still make it to NY in time. As Mammie would say, Peace Mark Hans- a delurker of another kind ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 13:44:16 +0000 From: Diana Green Subject: Re: gg: Collage vs development (re: geir's post) hail! re: William Tindall wrote: > Si Schreiblled: > > Some collage pieces work, some don't. Some developed pieces work, some don't. > Ultimately it's all about how it hits the individual listener.>> > > Ditto ditto ditto and ditto. But for one exception: I am a musician and a student of theory (how good of a student? Eh, I dunno, but I do know the difference between a Neapolitan 6th and Jimmy Page's elbow), and the collage approach is just another way of doing things, IMO. Sometimes it works beautifully, sometimes it falls apart all over the place; like anything else, it's ultimately a matter of taste. As a compositional approach, it's never bothered me in the least. Speaking as one with limited but passionate musical skill, but great passion for storytelling in either verbal or visual sense, here's another point to consider: most works begin with a collage of other's ideas (sometimes a collage of one's own ideas!) and develop from there. I know many will disagree with me, but the collage pieces I really hate are the ones in which the ideas appear less unified, appear to be merely strung together. To me, that's (here's where the disagreement will come in ) Thick as a Brick, Passion, Play, The Doors' "Soft Parade". still, dg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 14:43:49 -0400 From: Toby Trott Subject: gg: Re: Newbies, Keneally and Cats Wacky Racontuers, Rich welcomed a new-comer in his own special way: >>My name is Dave Newby > >Oh come on....it is not! I mean, it's fine if that's what you wanna >be called....but "newbie"? A coincidence? I think not...... 8^) Yeah...next thing ya know we'll find out we have a lurker named Lurker. Be that as it may (BTAIM for acronym lovers) you are most welcome, Dave. Come up with a good nickname and we'll soon forget this whole unfortunate incident :-). and in singing the praises of 'Giant Tracks' Rich gushed: >I still say Keneally's "No God's A Man" may in fact be as good or better >than the original. Damned good...possibly better...hard to argue that point. Anyway, I recently got presumptuous and wrote Keneally asking if he had any other GG efforts recorded, good or bad. He replied that he and his brother had recorded some GG many years back, but not for public consumption. Too bad...that would have been a nice tape to share with the group. I tried. >>Julian, what's your cat's favorite band? > >My cat Toby goes nuts over Bowie's Earthling CD. His ears go back, and he >runs around madly. I'm just so honored that you named your cat after me. :-) As a kid I was not happy with my name, especially when so many people were giving my name to their pets more than their offspring. I'm grown up now, so I can handle it a little better...I think. . . aaaarrrrrrrggggggggghhhhhhhh! np in my head: Still that damned Dagmar and Slapp Happy/Henry Cow... "what we feel we have to solve is why the dregs have not disolved" That's a couple of weeks now...get her out of my head!!!! Would Prozac help? or will it take Lithium? Dr Skull? Toby @work I am trott@sas.com, but come the evening hours I become tjtrott@mindspring.com - ------------- ...world's a stage...play their part...I have chosen not to be a cat...ador. On the other hand, think how interesting the world would be if we all had cat-like tails? The erotic possibilities alone are ... just ... Ooooooo. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 13:56:38 +0000 From: Diana Green Subject: nogg: the fireman hail; since nobody responded to my mini quiz on "The Fireman", I'll fill you in. It's very challenging, fun ambient techno music that at times reminds me of Tangerine Dream, as played by: Paul McCartney. I read a bit about it in the last issue of Progression and recently happened on a cheap copy. If we're still planning on plugging the jukebox at GORGG that's probably what I'll contribute. still, dg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 14:56:51 EDT From: MHB1212GG@aol.com Subject: gg: RE: V-Bert - --part1_5f33bcd8.2523baf3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Happy Humpday, Just a quick de-lurk, sorry to bug ya's. Talked with Bert this morning, man is he in great spirit. He is up and around, (I caught him in the bathroom), and VERY much looking forward to meeting you all. All I can say is what a gentleman. Keep up the prayers he may still make it to NY in time. As Mammie would say, Peace Mark Hans-a delurker of another kind - --part1_5f33bcd8.2523baf3_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: MHB1212GG@aol.com From: MHB1212GG@aol.com Full-name: MHB1212GG Message-ID: <916aa8b4.2523b5ac@aol.com> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 14:34:20 EDT Subject: RE: V-Bert To: on-reflection@lists.uoregon.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Happy Humpday, Just a quick de-lurk, sorry to bug ya's. Talked with Bert this morning, man is he in great spirit. He is up and around, (I caught him in the bathroom), and VERY much looking forward to meeting you all. All I can say is what a gentleman. Keep up the prayers he may still make it to NY in time. As Mammie would say, Peace Mark Hans- a delurker of another kind - --part1_5f33bcd8.2523baf3_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 21:51:50 +0100 From: "Fred Rosenkamp" Subject: Re: gg: Carpet Crawlers > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - --MS_Mac_OE_3021486710_2547691_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Frank wrote: >But to hear Gabriel and Collins take turns on lead and backing while Hackett >is making interesting soundscapes in the background is still something that >sends shivers down the spine. That combination is still very strong. Indeed, it's the poppy, 'non-likable' Genesis format, but somehow these guys - - in this particular line-up - have this special synergy. Together they seem to take the band to a much higher level. It also struck me that PG's voice makes Genesis' sound so much more 'grown up' (or deeper, or richer, or...) and thus (to me at least) a lot more credible. So does SH's guitar add this special atmosphere, that nobody else seems to be really capable of. It's the man's personal 'touch', I guess. And let's not forget: Carpet Crawlers has always been a great piece of music! >I wouldn't be the least surprised if they got a smash hit out of this recording. Wouldn't that mean commercial obligations?? >Definitely worth a download Done! Cheers, Fred - --MS_Mac_OE_3021486710_2547691_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: gg: Carpet Crawlers
Frank wrote:

>But to hear Gabriel and Collins take turns on lead and b= acking while Hackett
>is making interesting soundscapes in the backgrou= nd is still something that
>sends shivers down the spine. That combination is= still very strong.

Indeed, it's the poppy, 'non-likable' Genesis format, but somehow th= ese guys - in this particular line-up - have this special synergy. Together = they seem to take the band to a much higher level. It also struck me that PG= 's voice makes Genesis' sound so much more 'grown up' (or deeper, or richer,= or...) and thus (to me at least) a lot more credible. So does SH's guitar a= dd this special atmosphere, that nobody else seems to be really capable of. = It's the man's personal 'touch', I guess.  And let's not forget: Carpet= Crawlers has always been a great piece of music!   = ;  

>I wouldn't be the least surprised if they got a smash hit out of this r= ecording.

Wouldn't that mean commercial obligations??

>Definitely worth a download

Done!
 

Cheers,
Fred


- --MS_Mac_OE_3021486710_2547691_MIME_Part-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 13:06:27 -0700 From: "Scott Steele" Subject: gg: Keneally's NGaM; better than a Mellotron; Strawberry Fields; odes; semi-lurker; new Yes; Magma; Bert >I have received so much great information on the mellotron, Get down from there right now young lady! >...I still say Keneally's "No God's A Man" may in fact be as good or better than the original. It is certainly informed by the passage of time between it and the original version. How about this for a daydream: Kerry, Ray, and Gary call Mike so they can work together on a record. >> Let me know if you change your mind about the Freeman - they sound great. Better than a Mellotron even. >Heresy! >Then again, as I recall, Jan Hammer had a Symphonizer with a custom-built filter bank, done by Robert Moog. Made it sound wonderful -- that's the sound on his album. Well, that's the one I want. Sorry David Eric, the deal's off - I'm calling Jan and hitting him up for *his* Freeman. >Did he travel with that rig for the famous Beck/Jan Hammer concert tour (on which he performed "The Earth Meets the Sun" from )? "Darkness: Earth in Search of a Sun". And I'm not a keyboard player but I would guess that that was indeed the Freeman that we saw Jan playing just seconds before Jeff came on stage with his big entrance (pretty cool eh?). Loftus left us with an impression on a favorite version of Strawberry Fields Forever. >I always liked Peter Gabriel's version on the highly uneven "All This And World War II" tribute/collection. It's fairly straight, but Gabriel's voice works really well for the song. Yes, this and about three other performances make the album worth owning. >Jan Hammer used a Mellotron on "Seven Days". I think he acquired the Freeman later, but I may be wrong here. ;) >bulllshit! gesundheit >np: The fireman: Rushes: obscura quiz: I know what this is: odes anyone else? How about Ode to a Peanut Butter Jar. But seriously, that's McCartney under an assumed name (Sanders). >I'm a semi-lurker on this list...some of the stuff these guys come up with is beyond me, and I consider myself an afficianado of music. Sometimes the best I can do is a barbed comment or quip...most of my brain cells are still intact, as opposed to a lot of others on this list ;) Jim's intejections of lucidity are enough to keep the skids greased as we move downhill to hitherto unknown regions. Dan 222x3 peruses the credits of The First Seven Days and finds Freeman and Mellotron both: >Well, perusing the credits, he had both in use on the album. Do you think he was using both at the same time at the very start of the record? Shit, this is going to be expensive. >In short ... for those of you waffling on the new Yes -- It's a bright shiny pleasant offering, full of fun, frolic, and lots of love. Be happy. Can you say Yes for me? I knew you could :) Uh oh, I think I might waffle a bit longer before I get this. That is, if it's too shiny and happy. >Jazz banjo? I guess there's a little something for everybody. Hey John Eric, come on over and I'll play you a McLaughin banjo solo that will starch your hair backward, and enough Fleck to convert you to a Fleckaholic. >I mean, who can honestly say that MDK [or even worse, Riah Sahiltaahk] is a good composition? It is a unique work, no doubt whatsoever, but only in a Christo-wrapping-Reichstag-house kind of way. I think Magma is like Carl Orff's Carmina Burana on steroids, so maybe we agree Zn. But I have a difficult time being too critical of them, or even evaluating their compositions - I can only say that I enjoy them when I want to hear them, and when I'm not in the mood for Steroidal Carmina, I don't put them on the box. >At the end of the day, isn't that what music is supposed to do, regardless of a subjective measure of compositional quality? Yes. Even at the beginning of the day. >Chances are getting better that we can make it to gorgg. This is good news Jorunn! I look forward to meeting Bert's best influence. - S. np: The Gone Orchestra, 8/17/99 rough mixes scottst@ohsu.edu ------------------------------ End of on-reflection-digest V1 #1887 ************************************