Subj: on-reflection-digest V1 #1891
Date: 10/2/99 6:01:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time
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on-reflection-digest Saturday, October 2 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1891
gg: tech talk, you're on the air
Re: gg: more digital audio mania
Re: gg: more digital audio mania
[Fwd: Re: gg: About Gentle Giant]
Re: gg: tech talk, you're on the air
Re: gg: About Gentle Giant
Re: gg: 7 deadly sins
Re: gg: more digital audio mania
Re: [Fwd: Re: gg: About Gentle Giant]
non gg: Bert's back, no make that Bert's leg.
Re: no gg: Albums Dad Had
Re: no gg: bawdy covers - not for the faint-of-heart
gg: no GG: Re: mastering question; Phish concert
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 21:15:04 EDT
From: Claudio666@aol.com
Subject: gg: tech talk, you're on the air
I don't know about you, but I've learned more about CDs and recording
technology in the last 2 days than, well...forever. I tend to trust my
ears. As I've stated before in this venerable digest, I've heard many a CD
that didn't come close to the original LP except for the lack of pops and
clicks. However, there have been a FEW that at least equaled or surpassed my
vinyl listening experience. This has been due to either the remastered mix
and/or the availability of previously unheard high frequencies. (And, BTW, my
ears are permanently damaged).
As a classically trained pianist(watch how you say that) and a pseudo-prog
composer (now retired) I found very interesting reading regarding song
structures, in particularly the "collage" argument. I've never been much of
a traditionalist, which is why I never cut it in music school, and I must say
that I agree with Simon on this. If it sounds good, enjoy it. Besides a
select few of you out there (and no offense!), who among us listens to music
with an eye toward analysis as opposed to enjoyment? I listen to the
playing, the themes, the interplay of musicians, the production, the
voicings...it either works for me or not. I don't particularly care if it's
collage-constructed or movement-based, or whether there's a thematic
singularity. Is it good? Is it just OK? Or does it suck?
Which probably explains why I'm running a liquor store instead of playing
music for a living...
But, hey! This is fascinating stuff and I appreciate the conversation! I
can see where people are passionate about what they do and what they know.
With technology having a half-life of about a week, I'm counting on you all
to keep me current (as I play ancient recordings on primitive vinyl
stimulated by a diamond stylus...)
Blissfully ignorant and loving it,
Dan Six
n.d. Heileman's Special Export in the new long-neck bottle
n.p. Didier Lockwood "Surya"
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 22:22:27 -0500
From: DE Johnson
Subject: Re: gg: more digital audio mania
"Dan Weese" wrote:
>Since you know what Nyquist is, perhaps you could also tell us what Johnson
>noise is...
For a bit of Johnson noise, please visit: www.raconteurprod.com
(You knew I had to respond to that, didn't you?)
DJ/CiViLiAN/Raconteur/The Incredible Mr. Nobody
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 23:38:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: mammienun@webtv.net
Subject: Re: gg: more digital audio mania
What we need is power...pure, clean power. Unadulderated with absolutely
no distortion. And glory...don't forget Glory. I hear she's pretty good,
too. Ez
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 20:43:47 -0700
From: JohnEric
Subject: [Fwd: Re: gg: About Gentle Giant]
- -------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: gg: About Gentle Giant
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 20:41:50 -0700
From: JohnEric
To: Pablo
References:
Your choices for favorites are mine as well. The Missing Piece CD was
where they started to disappoint me. However, I did end up liking most
of
it given time to adjust to their more pop sound. It took them till
Civilian to make it work and then, sadly, they split up. I've never
heard
of "Under Construction". Was it a compilation? I may have read
references
to it in this group, although it never clicked with me until now. I
don't
know. Whatever. I would appreciate your description of it.
JohnEric
Pablo wrote:
> For me, the best albums are Octopus, In a glass house, The
> power... and free hand.
> I like very much a song of missing piece: memories of old days
> Do you agree me?
>
> Pablo
- --
http://www.mindspring.com/~jjellison/nightsky.htm
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 23:58:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: mammienun@webtv.net
Subject: Re: gg: tech talk, you're on the air
It beats having a bunch of jamokes posting shit like this.
Hahahahahahaha..aaaah. Keep it coming, mmmammie
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 00:20:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: mammienun@webtv.net
Subject: Re: gg: About Gentle Giant
- --WebTV-Mail-29664-1152
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Welcome to OR. The binding interest of this diversified group is, as you
know, Gentle Giant. I have no idea who this band is. Why am I here?
Seriously, this is the best damn list on the net! Stick around for the
fireworks...it's an amazing display. Look ma...I'm on top of the wORld!
- --WebTV-Mail-29664-1152
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Visit mammienun's
conventpage
- --WebTV-Mail-29664-1152--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 23:30:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Don Tillman
Subject: Re: gg: 7 deadly sins
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 10:58:07 +0000
From: Diana Green
And the Lou & Peter Berryman classic, Incommunicado:
And the other Peter and Lou Berryman classic, The Dog's Asleep:
" The dog's asleep
The cat's asleep
If the fish were swimming slower
They'd be standing still..."
[Everybody else on the list is probably going to need an explanation.
Peter and Lou Berryman were, and probably still are, an ex- husband
and wife dou playing some wonderfully clever songs around Madison,
Wisconsin. Folky 12-string guitar and accordian, very funny stuff.]
Diana, any idea what they've been up to lately?
-- Don
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 00:20:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Don Tillman
Subject: Re: gg: more digital audio mania
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 12:00:08 -0400
From: Richard Hilton
>From: "Dan Weese"
>Subject: Re: gg: mastering question
>A 16-bit sample can contain 65,536 possible levels of sound
>dynamics. In the case of 24-bit samples, these can contain up to
>16,777,216 possible levels. Never mind that there is, at present, no
>such thing as 24-bit resolution
You are misinformed about this sir. I have been recording to the
real "non-existant" 24 bit resolution for a year now. What ever gave
you the impression that this does not exist?
I think what DW is saying by "no such thing as 24-bit resolution" is
that the residual noise level of just about any piece of electronics
is going to be roughly the same as the residual noise level of a
16-bit digital recorder (just slightly worse than 96dB), so the extra
bits might be considered useless in that they only provide better
resolution for the residual noise.
I think it's a reasonable arguement, except that it only holds in
cases where all the levels are adjusted optimally from the start,
it assumes that all sources of noise are equally annoying and it
doesn't account for real-life implementation issues.
>The highest audible frequency, 20 kHz, is actually beyond the range
>of most humans
There is a lot of discussion about human perception exceeding the
theoretical 20k limit. I think you know this.....there are many
tests that have been done with the filters in digital systems that
lend credence to the idea that people do perceive above 20k.
It's pretty well understood that the ear is a nonlinear device, so
engineering math tells us that it's technically possible for the ear
to be sensitive to out-of-band signals when mixed with in-band
signals.
I don't think anybody cares though; the analog audio content over
20kHz is truly negligible as almost every link in the chain kills
stuff over that frequnecy. Microphones generally don't put out over
20kHz, mixers don't, tape decks don't, record lathes don't, phono
cartridges don't, tweeters don't... Stuff over 20kHz really doesn't
stand a chance in an all analog system.
Besides, I'm far more interested in the frequencies I can hear.
...
I have a problem with these digital discussions; they always assume
that the rest of the system is *perfect*. The number of bits, the
sampling rate, and so forth, all assume that the analog-to-digital
conversion process is completely without errors and glitches. It's
not; it's a difficult process. There are distortions in the up-front
anti-aliasing circuitry, there are linearity and monotonicity issues,
there are all sorts of errors, there are implementation subtleties.
The better equipment will just sound better. We just don't have the
measurement standards set up yet to allow the luxury of "catalog
shopping" (ie., choosing the equipment by specs without actually
listening).
-- Don
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 04:48:06 EDT
From: SPBrader@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: gg: About Gentle Giant]
JEE writes:
<< The Missing Piece CD was
where they started to disappoint me. >>
First he has a pop at The Ladder and now this!
I think I'm going to have to send the hired goons round ;-)
Si
n.p. KC: Mexico City
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 14:12:14 +0100
From: "Jorunn Nome & Bert Vijn"
Subject: non gg: Bert's back, no make that Bert's leg.
Hi all y'all!
I'd like to thank everyone deeply for their kind e-mails the last 2 weeks.
Just got to read many of them. I'm very sorry I can't reply everyone - I feel I
would be a traitor to other causes if I started replying in person.
Some asked whadsamattayou.
OK, I had/have erysipelas, an accute attack on the skin and the tissue below, most
probably (some 90%) by a streptococcus bacteria - one that normally is ON your
skin, and should stay there. Got it on Sunday 2 weeks ago. Heavy doses of several
antibiotics, given intravenously 7 times each day, helped avoid surgery, but it
was close. Got out of hospital yesterday, but am not well yet. Gorgg attendance
not threatened though.
Thanks again for your warmth!
c-ya,
v-bert
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://home.sol.no/~vijn/
http://home.sol.no/~vijn/h-gorgg.htm Gorgg
http://home.sol.no/~vijn/h-gorgg-noflash.htm Gorgg w/o Macromedia Flash
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 14:16:55 +0100
From: "Jorunn Nome & Bert Vijn"
Subject: Re: no gg: Albums Dad Had
Hi folks,
Can't resist, time or no time:
Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Bach,
Beethoven, Brahms -- that was virtually what they gave me for food in the
sixties. And yes, they did have Bruckner and Bruch and even some non-B composers
likr Ravel, Dvorak and Mendelssohn, but those weren't played as often as the 3
above.
I used to tell them that when I grew up, they could add Bert to the collection of
Bs. They tended to laugh and tell me that was not gonna happen -- not the kind of
thing our kind of people would do, mind you!! Well, they'll be surprised when I
grow up!!!
Happily, I could convince them to buy some more stuff after '67. They eventually
wound up with a rather nice LP collection of some 200 classical LPs.
Also, from the early days, they had a Mantovani LP. Later my mother would excuse
herself saying: "You know Bert, in those early days, we knew nothing. We were
happy that we had an LP at all. We were soo impressed when hearing it demonstarted
in the music shop..."
Well, personally, I've always been impressed with my parents' taste in music,
specially my mom's, even though they dig Ekseption, Focus and (my dad) Jethro
Tull. ;^)
c-ya,
v-bert
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 14:21:01 +0100
From: "Jorunn Nome & Bert Vijn"
Subject: Re: no gg: bawdy covers - not for the faint-of-heart
David Eric:
>So, are we going to do a thread on "wicked covers?"
Not strictly a cover maybe, but:
Through the transparent orange CD tray of Sonic Youth's "Dirty" one can see a b/w
picture. It shows a naked woman and a naked man, both of them involved in what
must be some form of sexual contact with soft toy animals. The man appears to be
drawing a rabbit from his rectum. There is also quite some amount of soft smeary
stuff on his body. Looking at the roundish form of the smeary stuff on the carpet
under him, I get the strong impression that it is brown, and was produced inside
the man's body...
Do I like this picture? No.
Does it tell me a about our world? Yes.
please no shooting me -- me be justa messenger play piano, yes?
c-ya,
v-bert
np: XTC: Apple Venus, vol. 1
nd: coffee
nw: a Gorggeous T-shirt! I dig it big time. Eternal thanks, Nick!
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 08:43:45 -0400
From: Alan Benjamin
Subject: gg: no GG: Re: mastering question; Phish concert
Hi,
James Warren recently mentioned:
>- -Drew posted some questions about 24-bit technology
>and cds. Since I am not one of those "tech types"
>(esp. compared to others on this list), I can't answer
>the specific questions. However, I am passing along
>some related info. from a good friend of mine that IS
>an expert.
[snip]
> 24/96 is going to be the new (already is on some)
> DVD audio standard. CD's
> are 16 bit/ 44.1 KHz audio. The 24 bit is good
> because it increases
> amplitude resolution quite a bit (no pun intended)
> and gives a much greater
> (theoretically) dynamic range and a lower noise
> floor. The 96 KHz is total
> bullshit and a waste of storage space. Some video
> guy must have done it.
> The reason CD's are 44.1 KHz sampling rate is
> because of the Nyquist
> frequency. Basically this means that to reproduce a
> frequency, the sampling
> rate must be twice that of the frequency you are
> trying to reproduce.
> Humans have a hearing range of 20-20,000 Hz (some
> claim 22,000 but it's
> fairly rare). Do the math (40-40,000 Hz sampling
> rate will produce all the
> frequencies you can hear). 44.1 KHz even gives you
> some room, assumably for
> bad converters and the like. Maybe the guys who
> created this are hoping to
> tap into the lucrative "music for dogs" market. ;-)
I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with this. Although Nyquist's theory holds
true when you look at the frequency of the analog source that can be
sampled, it does not represent how accurately the timbre can be
represented. As an extreme example, how could a 44.1kHz sample
differentiate between a square wave, sine wave, and sawtooth wave that are
all 20kHz (even optimally sampled)? Each cycle could only be represented by
two samples, resulting the same digital representation. Regardless of how
the DA converters "smooth" things out, there is no differentiation.
Now think of a 10kHz frequency, which now has to be represented with four
samples per cycle. Same principal, but now twice the differentiation. And
so on.... Of course the harmonic frequencies play a big part in how we
perceive the results, but this very much applies to those as well. The
higher the sample rate, the better these timbres can be differentiated, and
the better it will sound.
I tend to agree with everything Rich has posted in regard to this issue
(especially nice job on the original response). It's sort of amusing that
this topic starts taking on arguments of a nearly religious/political
level. Perhaps we should set up a test lab as part of GORGG. :-)
Take care,
Alan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
| Alan Benjamin e-mail: adbenjamin@earthlink.net |
| Advent Home Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~adbenjamin/advent.html |
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------------------------------
End of on-reflection-digest V1 #1891
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