on-reflection-digest     Sunday, October 3 1999     Volume 01 : Number 1893



Re: gg: tech talk, you're on the air
Re: nogg: Neal Morse
gg: Re: more digital audio mania than most people can stand
gg: The Fragile review
gg: Hey all! Yet another newbie...
Re: nogg: Neal Morse
Re: gg: tech talk, you're on the air
gg: Re: no GG: Re: mastering question; Phish concert
gg: Re: Hey all! Yet another newbie...
Re: gg: Another newbie. Greetings to all
Re: gg: Another newbie. Greetings to all
Re: gg: GG: Perception, analysis, perfection
Re: gg: Hey all! Yet another newbie...
Re: gg: Re: more digital audio mania than most people can stand
Re: gg: no GG: Re: mastering question; Phish concert
gg: Beware of Darkness
gg: OYE
RE: [Fwd: Re: gg: About Gentle Giant]
Re: nogg: Neal Morse
Re: gg: no GG: Re: mastering question; Phish concert
gg: mania ...
Re: gg: OYE
gg: RE: GG: Voivod, Gryphon, Bert, Mellotron, GGG
gg: last hammill show
gg: Carpet Crawlers
Re: gg: Carpet Crawlers
Re: gg: Carpet Crawlers
Re: gg: Carpet Crawlers
Re: gg: Carpet Crawlers
gg: West Side Story - 96bit Digital Remaster
gg: You widda Jets?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 15:54:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Daniel Barrett 
Subject: Re: gg: tech talk, you're on the air

Claudio666@aol.com asked:
>If it sounds good, enjoy it.  Besides a select few of you out there (and
>no offense!), who among us listens to music with an eye toward analysis as
>opposed to enjoyment?

It's not an either/or proposition.  For some listeners, understanding the
music increases the enjoyment.

                                                        Dan

 //////////////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
| Dan Barrett                            Creator, The Gentle Giant Web Site |
| dbarrett@blazemonger.com                   http://www.blazemonger.com/GG/ |
 \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////////////////////////////////////

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 17:02:54 EDT
From: BrunoKassl@aol.com
Subject: Re: nogg: Neal Morse

Hi all,
I just listened to the first solo album of neal Morse, lead singer of Spock's 
Beard. It's absolutely wonderful. My favourite track is the last song "A 
Whole Nother Trip" including part A = "Bomb That Can't Explode" (9:02), part 
B = "Mr. Upside Down" (4:41), part C = "The Man Who Would Be King" (4:22), 
part D = "It's Alright" (5:52). A great album with some GG-influenced prog 
moments!
Greetings from Cologne/Germany to all on the list
Bruno

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 17:06:43 -0400
From: "charles / wmo" 
Subject: gg: Re: more digital audio mania than most people can stand

SLightly on the subject - but isn't THE POWER AND THE GLORY one of the best
sounding records/cds of all time? This is true reference disc...


charles

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 14:01:47 -0700
From: JohnEric 
Subject: gg: The Fragile review

I just picked up the new release "The Fragile" by Nine Inch Nails.  I
like this one better than The Downward Spiral.  Other bands that come to
mind while listening to this are Stabbing Westward and the last Crimson
(Thrak).  I like the industrial stuff better as well.  I'm sure my
opinion will jell more cohesively over time, but my initial impressions
are positive.  His lyrics are focused less on shaking his fist at the
sky and more at the human condition ... a real change for him.

For what it's worth.

JohnEric
- --
GTR --- Any opinions?

http://www.mindspring.com/~jjellison/nightsky.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 17:13:18 -0500
From: "William Jenkins III" 
Subject: gg: Hey all! Yet another newbie...

Hail & well met, fair gentles, all.
First exposure to GG, college, 1975, title unknown, although by 78 I
acquired a tape of Playing the Fool, w/excerpts from Octopus.  Now have all
the original releases on CD except Interview.  Faves? Live stuff, all of it.
Must say, as former (and pitiful) bass player, love the phat bottom end on
the King Biscuit release.  Just bought Glass House on CD last Christmas for
my brother from Rockhouse in Holland, for like $18 US including shipping!
Also listen constantly to Octopus through Civilian.

Other bands: Yes (through keys to ascension #1, still a good concert, but
these last new albums suck--who the hell is Billy Sherwood and what function
does he serve, anyway, and shouldn't Steve Howe be on life support?) ,
Genesis through And then there were three, new box set rules except CD 4,
King Crimson, Jade Warrior (anyone find Elements on CD, let me know...),
Marrilion with Fish, but "Brave" is good too, Fish's solo stuff is exc:
check out Raingods with Zippos.

As far as the analog/digital rant goes, all I can say is that my experience
has been that what most people can afford in
turntable/cartridge/pre-amp/amp/speaker combo will not sound as good to
their ears as a reasonably priced CD/integrated amp/speaker set-up.
Audiophile quality vinyl playback equipment is beyond the means of your
average 2.5 kids, dog, mortgage, and car-payment folks.  Now, hold on while
I get my armour on....interesting bunch of people we have here...
Bill Jenkins

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 14:04:36 -0700
From: JohnEric 
Subject: Re: nogg: Neal Morse

All right, you've convinced me.  I'll by a Spock's Beard CD.  For the
uninitiated, which is the best, most available, release to buy?

JohnEric

BrunoKassl@aol.com wrote:

> Hi all,
> I just listened to the first solo album of neal Morse, lead singer of Spock's
> Beard. It's absolutely wonderful. My favourite track is the last song "A
> Whole Nother Trip" including part A = "Bomb That Can't Explode" (9:02), part
> B = "Mr. Upside Down" (4:41), part C = "The Man Who Would Be King" (4:22),
> part D = "It's Alright" (5:52). A great album with some GG-influenced prog
> moments!
> Greetings from Cologne/Germany to all on the list
> Bruno

- --
GTR --- Any opinions?

http://www.mindspring.com/~jjellison/nightsky.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 17:18:10 -0400
From: "drj_saro" 
Subject: Re: gg: tech talk, you're on the air

- -----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Barrett 
To: on-reflection@lists.uoregon.edu 
Date: Saturday, October 02, 1999 4:00 PM
Subject: Re: gg: tech talk, you're on the air


>Claudio666@aol.com asked:
>>If it sounds good, enjoy it.  Besides a select few of you out there (and
>>no offense!), who among us listens to music with an eye toward analysis as
>>opposed to enjoyment?
>
>It's not an either/or proposition.  For some listeners, understanding the
>music increases the enjoyment.
>
>                                                        Dan


but for some others (especially in light of some of the criticsm that has
appeared on these pages) over-analyzing the music seems to prevent them from
enjoying it because it does not meet the formal criteria.

thank you for your time and attention.

Julius J. SAROKA
drj_saro@neo.rr.com
Cuyahoga Falls OHIO

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 17:27:32 -0400
From: "drj_saro" 
Subject: gg: Re: no GG: Re: mastering question; Phish concert

- -----Original Message-----
From: Alan Benjamin 
>I respect what you're saying, but I think there's something missing between
>your (Nyquist's) theory and the reason why many people (including several
>who I know, trust, and have great ears) can hear the benefit of the higher
>sampling rates. I wish it wasn't the case, actually, as I'll probably end
>up buying many recordings all over again when an improved format becomes
>widely available.


Nyquist Theory establishes a _minimum_ required sampling rate for the
preservation of _information_.    "recording fidelity" is a much more
complex issue (even without introducing the concept of "psycho-acoustics")
and using a _minimum_ sampling rate will yield a _minimally_ acceptable
fidelity, so using a _higher_ sampling rate will yield more information
which should result in  improved fidelity.    this is _not_ infinitely
repeatable due to "noise" (formal physics definition) - that is to say that
_at some point_ the noise will actually be larger than the discernible
smallest unit of measure and trying to make a _finer_ measurement will
actually result in a degradation rather than an improvement of the
measurement.

thank you for your time and attention.

Julius J. SAROKA
drj_saro@neo.rr.com
Cuyahoga Falls OHIO

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 17:37:10 -0400
From: "drj_saro" 
Subject: gg: Re: Hey all! Yet another newbie...

first of all, welcome!

>Other bands: Yes (through keys to ascension #1, still a good concert, but
>these last new albums suck--who the hell is Billy Sherwood and what
function
>does he serve, anyway, and shouldn't Steve Howe be on life support?) ,

not quite sure if you mean anything beyond the fact that Howe looks like the
Walking Dead, but even on the newest album he manages to run off some quite
excellent riffage (as does Squire, and even Igor (when he's allowed to)),
even though the album as a whole is a pitable morass of MOR-ness.


>Jade Warrior (anyone find Elements on CD, let me know...),

this is OOP, but you may be able to find someone that still has some copies
on GEMM.


>As far as the analog/digital rant goes, all I can say is that my experience
>has been that what most people can afford in
>turntable/cartridge/pre-amp/amp/speaker combo will not sound as good to
>their ears as a reasonably priced CD/integrated amp/speaker set-up.
>Audiophile quality vinyl playback equipment is beyond the means of your
>average 2.5 kids, dog, mortgage, and car-payment folks.

you've hit on a key point here...
even if the _only_ improvement CD offered was the elimination of vinyl
surface noise, it would still be preferable, especially to mid-to-late 70s
(oil embargo) era vinyl!
there were things buried in the "rice krispies" on those first 3 or 4
Genesis album that i never even _imagined_ were there, until hearing the
CDs.

thank you for your time and attention.

Julius J. SAROKA
drj_saro@neo.rr.com
Cuyahoga Falls OHIO

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 00:07:39 +0100
From: manso@ozet.de (Ansorge)
Subject: Re: gg: Another newbie. Greetings to all

Diana Green wrote:
> 
> hail;
> re:
> 
> Ansorge wrote:
> 
> > Hello listees!
> >
> > As anyone can tell from the subject line, I'm new to the list and I'd
> > like to introduce myself.
> 
> Welcome, Matt! Sorry, you get used to that sort of shoddy treatment around
> here, but most of the time we mean no harm. :->
> 
> > Gist of biographical background: from April to
> > July 1981 Gentle Giant were among my favourite groups. Then I became
> > more aware of contemporary evolutions in pop music and forgot almost
> > completely about them (not much of a miracle, given the members' low
> > profiles in the subsequent years). Yet I never lost completely sight of
> > them and of the ideas for which the group stood, so I was aware that
> > they had still quite some following.
> 
> >From which I infer that you got into the more complex aspects of 80s power
> pop and post punk, including XTC?

Oh yes, XTC (but I didn't hear anything by them before their "English
Settlement" album, although I knew about their Fripp connection), but
also the dBs, Elvis Costello, Tom Verlaine: there were lots of great
Beatles/Beach Boys/Velvets revisions around. (Where are they now etc.,
my, there are probably lots of lists I could join right now...) Funny
that you mention XTC; I think they had a slightly giant-ish quality to
them, but I can't put my finger on it. Possibly it's in the way they
liked to juxtapose timbres, which re-introduced some polyphonic thinking
to the guitar/drums setup.


> 
> >
> >
> > Some years ago I spotted the "Edge of Twilight" sampler at my local
> > record shop, but it was only last week that I finally bought it. And lo,
> > they sounded better than I remembered them.
> 
> As is often the case with a dish you haven't had for a while, yes?

That's one possible explanation, but I wonder what it would have been
like if I had listend to the record on that old stereo of my mum's. Good
mastering, too (obviously I can't tell about the vinyl originals), and I
heard many details for the first time. I used to find most of their
records, especially "Octopus," too slow, and on "Playing the Fool" the
group seemed to agree: some songs are played at a much faster pace,
after all. Now, this is the first time that everything seems to be taken
at the right speed, which I can only explain as an agreeable side effect
of having the intended aural depth. It's the details that make the whole
thing come together.

> 
> > To be honest, I was slightly
> > embarrassed to take it to the counter (not that a long line of customers
> > that had just formed made things easier), quite sure that I was kidding
> > myself into the deal for sentimental reasons.
> 
>     I used to worry about stuff like this too, but I got over it. The other
> day, I was picking up a present for my sweetie's mom and saw a couple
> cheapies I wanted as well. So when I got to the counter, I had Islands by
> King Crimson, Patsy Cline Live, and a cool Benny Goodman collection in a
> really nice metal can (only $2.99!). time was I would have cared what the
> clerk or those around me, complete strangers for the most part, thought of
> my purchases. Now, I find not giving a rip has some advantages. I ended up
> having a really nice talk with the clerk, who had never heard KC and was
> interested because someone told her they were like Can, who she had heard
> for the first time the day before (oh, the freshness of youth!). I ended up
> recommending some beginning Crimson- I suggested Lizard or Discipline as
> starting points- and evangelizing GG a bit in the process!

This is nice. I've often experienced that people who found Crimson to
their liking (after some accustoming possibly) drew a line before Gentle
Giant, and I wonder why this might be so. I once thought it was because
Gentle Giant really showed those influences from their musical training,
and I suspected hordes of sadistic music teachers using hard rock to
lure the kids into singing rounds to explain it all. But then again,
many Crimson fans seem to really like their first two records which are
almost a little stilted in this respect, showing off instrumental
prowess and knowledge, and those lyrics... (an acquaintance of mine once
entered a crowded room with a priestly gesture, "hey folks, have to tell
you one thing--the wall on which the prophets wrote is cracking at the
seams").

I wonder what I would choose as a first Crimson album for someone. "In
the Court" never fails for the obvious reason (side 1, track 1), but
nowadays it represents so little of what's great about the group. They
almost ask for being custom-fitted to each listener, and every album
has, on some track, the potential to scare a curious person off. And
unlike Gentle Giant they have never had a "typical" period, whereas I
think that any Giant album from "Three Friends" to "Interview" is
typical. So, with Crimson, I'd choose quality (hoping for an
adventurous-minded recipient): "Lizard," "Larks' Tongues," or "Starless
and Bible Black." All 70s, all patchy, but each of them has some really
great moments.
 
> > But I found that there
> > were many tracks which had yet to receive an unbiased listening or at
> > least a fair trial--I despised "Schooldays" for its clumsiness when I
> > was a kid but consider its whimsical feel to be quite redemptive now.
> 
>     Interesting: maybe I'm too sentimental, but that whole album always
> resonated emotionally with me. Maybe it's because I've had all three of
> those types of jobs and lives.

I like the album, too (maybe because I have had none of those types of
jobs), it's really just that track. I've seen a collage thread currently
going on, and "Schooldays" seems to be a nice example of how not to do
it. Those crossfades between planes of consciousness are really corny
imho, but I quite liked the jumpy first part which owes a lot to
pre-rock entertainment. The slow middle part... well, I think it's quite
violently wedged in from another world, and it owes a lot to non-rock or
even anti-rock entertainment (the Moody Blues?). 
 
> >
> >
> > Anyway, I thought I'd look how come other people also have fond memories
> > of this group--one of the most misrepresented from its period imho. So,
> > greetings to all! I don't know for how long I'm going to stay with you,
> > but for now I'll say I'm at least impressed how much traffic this list
> > can generate.
> 
>     Hail and well met! I hope you hang a while. We're a surprisingly diverse
> group and, unlike some music lists, are far from rigid on sticking to
> assigned subject matter. you may get really angry here at times, but you
> will also laugh a lot and run into surprising information and more
> surprising people. Many of us have made some great friends here.
> still,
> dg
> np: king Crimson: Islands

Oh, I'm convinced I'll like it as long as I have time to read and post
many a mail... which may or may not be the case for any given period.

Matthias

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 00:09:11 +0100
From: manso@ozet.de (Ansorge)
Subject: Re: gg: Another newbie. Greetings to all

drj_saro wrote:
> 
> From: Ansorge 
> >As anyone can tell from the subject line, I'm new to the list and I'd
> >like to introduce myself. Gist of biographical background: from April to
> >July 1981 Gentle Giant were among my favourite groups. Then I became
> >more aware of contemporary evolutions in pop music and forgot almost
> >completely about them (not much of a miracle, given the members' low
> >profiles in the subsequent years). Yet I never lost completely sight of
> >them and of the ideas for which the group stood, so I was aware that
> >they had still quite some following.
> >
> 
> welcome!
> i would like to find the "missing piece" of your narrative and would be
> curious to know...
> 
> 1) what _other_ groups were among your favorites during that short but
> significant period in 1981?

Lots of early seventies stuff, Peter Hammill/Van der Graaf Generator,
King Crimson, The Who (strange enough, I preferred what all of these
groups did in the seventies to their respective sixties output--I still
rate, say, "Quadrophenia" some orders of magnitude higher than "Tommy").
I had had my doubts about much progressive rock that I used to like
before; I was into Yes, Genesis, Jethro Tull, some ELP, and many of
their continental-European followers. I liked the idea of music that
identified with rock but was aware that there were quite other strands
of music that a small electric ensemble couldn't ignore. I mean, the
average German middle class kid didn't really grow up with Jimi Hendrix
or even the Stones then, but rather with Mozart and, of course, Mummy's
Satchmo records. So there was already a half-conscious craving for
something more than four to the floor and a good melody. (Not that
there's anything wrong with that, is there?) Progressive rockers were
not ashamed of their early piano lessons and made something out of it,
great. But... the music could be better. So I came across Gentle Giant,
whose music *was* better.
 
> 2) what direction in music did you follow _after_  July 1981?
>     (and what happened to cause the change?)

Hmm... this goes back a while, let's see... I guess if I had had to
describe my preferences in 1981, I could have said "progressive rock"
without further ado. Anyway, I somehow saw the genre in decline then;
Gentle Giant had ceased to exist, Genesis were a closed case to me (and
their "Duke" album, the last I've heard to date, didn't convince me of
the opposite), King Crimson had not yet re-formed. (I liked their new
direction, but not as much as I had hoped I would.) Then, of course, the
proverbial older guys at school introduced me to lots of things in the
usual fashion--"You like Gentle Giant? You have to check this"--much
Euro-proggish stuff that never reached me, but also Soft Machine, Henry
Cow (then Art Bears), This Heat, all of whom I loved instantly, and all
of whom were still great at what they were doing (well, take a grain of
salt for Soft Machine); then of course a lot of classic American jazz
rock that had only very little airplay, so that was quite another
continent for me.

What had most impact, however, was the discovery of European modernism.
Living in North Rhine Westphalia meant that there was little chance for
the excellent new music broadcasts of WDR Cologne to go unnoticed.
Sooner or later I had to come across those virtual concept albums from
the past--"L'histoire du soldat", "Pierrot lunaire", "Le marteau sans
maitre", "Sirius"--which put a lot of those classical influences I had
loved so much into perspective. Mr Emerson didn't seem that much of a
keyboard player after I had heard Elisabeth Chojnacka perform Ligeti's
"Continuum."

In retrospect, I might label the period as my explorative era. I noticed
rock musicians from the past who had done very complex and adventurous
stuff without showing much respect for the whole progressive movement:
Beefheart, Zappa, Can, Kraftwerk, Bowie, Steely Dan... There was a short
time when I thought, boy, isn't that arrogant to dismiss everything
Genesis have done in half a sentence. Then I figured that the music I
liked was not the be-all and end-all as which I had seen it. And later
that year I had to concede that even some of those folks with spiky hair
and torn clothes had a point to make. Often that was a very arty point,
too: you may remember that Laurie Anderson had a huge hit with "O
Superman"; then there were great records by Red Crayola ("Kangaroo",
with members of Swell Maps and Essential Logic) and, especially, Rip Rig
and Panic ("God", definitely a key record in those formative years).
German post-punk was seemingly unexhaustible, too, what with great
albums by Einstuerzende Neubauten, der Plan, Pyrolator, Palais
Schaumburg. Miles Davis returned to stage and studio, Karlheinz
Stockhausen proved that he was serious about that seven-opera cycle. I
had never listened to any reggae or funk, and I saw that I had chosen to
ignore too much for my own good. After that, no holds were barred, and
progressive rock was even less than just another genre.

 
> also, i was sad to read that you were self-conscious about purchasing music
> that means something to you (and to us), i say be _proud_ of your tastes
> regardless of what other people think (especially when a large proportion of
> them are probably just buying the latest disposable pop.).

To me it was more like a time tunnel experience, and that's why I was a
bit anxious. I felt like I was cheating myself (which I wasn't actually,
but I was lucky; I've had the chance to listen to National Health's "DC
al coda" for the first time after more than fifteen years, and I was
very disappointed)--like consciously putting on that long-shed teenage
skin again. I don't identify much with my musical tastes, and sometimes
I've been buying more crap out of sheer curiosity than my shelves could
bear. By the way, I *love* the idea of pop as disposable; if record
companies make sure that music leaves a maximal audience unperturbed, so
be it. I wouldn't build an altar for a Will Smith record, and I'd
strongly advise against it. But won't it be fun for a twelve-year old to
buy one now, forget it before christmas and stumble upon it in 2024?
 
> again, in closing, i would just like to say again, "welcome!"
> 
> thank you for your time and attention.
> 
> Julius J. SAROKA
> drj_saro@neo.rr.com
> Cuyahoga Falls OHIO

Ah, I feel quite at home already. "Sorry to have been" etc. etc.

np: Autechre, EP7

Matthias

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 23:29:45 +0100
From: Bob Taylor 
Subject: Re: gg: GG: Perception, analysis, perfection

In message <7aaf8886.2527ab7a@aol.com>, SPBrader@aol.com writes
>John Eric asks:
>
><< Why?  Just curious.
> 
> JohnEric
> 
> Geir Hasnes wrote:
> 
> > And by the way, I think the tunes of Samantha Fox in the 80s are 
>brilliant!> >>

Weren't these written (in part?) by Mark Shreeve?

Bob

- -- 
Bob Taylor

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 19:03:39 EDT
From: Claudio666@aol.com
Subject: Re: gg: Hey all! Yet another newbie...

In a message dated 10/2/99 3:17:39 PM Mountain Daylight Time, 
w.jenkinsiii@worldnet.att.net writes:

<< Hail & well met, fair gentles, all. >>

Hi, Bill and welcome to audiophile heaven!  No armor is required, however, a 
good all-purpose teflon suit with Kevlar in the right places will suit you 
well.

Dan 24/4

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 19:15:17 -0400
From: DR 
Subject: Re: gg: Re: more digital audio mania than most people can stand

Hi ! Well, I used the first bass note of 'Aspirations' to test a pair of
headphones recently ...
DR

charles / wmo a écrit:

> SLightly on the subject - but isn't THE POWER AND THE GLORY one of the best
> sounding records/cds of all time? This is true reference disc...
>
> charles

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 16:39:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Don Tillman 
Subject: Re: gg: no GG: Re: mastering question; Phish concert

   Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 15:41:50 -0400
   From: Alan Benjamin 

   >Don:
   >Nyquist's theory states that no *components* of the analog input can be
   >over half the sampling frequency for perfect reproduction.  The
   >sawtooth and square waves you mention have lots of fourier components
   >over the sampling frequency and these would need to be filtered out
   >first (leaving sine waves).

   Are you saying that nothing gets lost as a result of this
   filtering?

It's entirely possible for the filtering to remove some desired
components of the signal as well as adding it's own noises,
distortions, phase shifts and lord knows what.  Building a really nice
anti-alias filter is difficult, and there has been some remarkably
clever work in that area in the last 15 years or so.

But the Nyquist theory really does hold, and it does require that the
input is band limited.

   Wouldn't it be fair to say that some of the components are filtered
   while others are not? And, if so, does this not result in an
   audible change?

Only if what is being filtered out is audible.

In your square-wave example you were concerned about a 60kHz signal
(the square wave's first overtone).  I don't believe you can hear
60kHz.  (Hell, I don't believe my dog can hear 60kHz.)  

Energies are surely being misdirected if 60kHz is the major concern,
eh? 

   Or, to look at it a different way, why does a higher sampling frequency
   produce better-sounding results? 

Most likely because the circuitry in the higher sample frequncy unit
is just plain *better*.  There's a lot to an analog-to-digital
converter, engineers have been building them for decades and they keep
getting better and better.  To distill all the subtleties down to a
sampling frequency spec is missing the point.  

Do all higher sampling rate units sound better than all lower sampling
rate units?  Do all 15-inch woofers sound better than all 12-inch
woofers?  

  -- Don

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 19:54:40 -0400
From: "David and Stacey Shur" 
Subject: gg: Beware of Darkness

From: JohnEric 
> All right, you've convinced me.  I'll by a Spock's Beard CD.  For the
> uninitiated, which is the best, most available, release to buy

I've heard three of their albums.  The first two, and Beware of Darkness.  I
recommend BoD.  It's got some good melodies, interesting arrangements, and
although some annoying rip-offs (like the GG vocal steal in one song) are
present, it is worth it.  -David Eric

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 20:23:47 -0400
From: Daniel Potvin 
Subject: gg: OYE

 Hi everyone

 OPEN YOUR EYES was soooooo bad that i'm almost affraid to listen to THE LADDER.

 Daniel

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 20:36:42 -0400
From: Daniel Potvin 
Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: gg: About Gentle Giant]

Pablo writes:
> I like very much a song of missing piece: memories of old days 

It is indeed a great song specially the live version on " Out Of The Fire" the BBC concert.

Daniel

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 20:44:42 EDT
From: BrunoKassl@aol.com
Subject: Re: nogg: Neal Morse

In an eMail from 02.10.99 23:16:44 (MEZ) john_97223@yahoo.com wrote:

<< All right, you've convinced me.  I'll by a Spock's Beard CD.  For the
 uninitiated, which is the best, most available, release to buy? >>

Hi John,
I prefer the 1999 "Day For Night"-album which was released on the 
InsideOut-Label (distributed by SPV in Europe). Pretty good stuff. Other 
list-members are more into the older recordings of Spock's Beard. Why don't 
you buy the whole recordings of this band and find it out? I'm sure you don't 
waste your money...
Best wishes from Cologne / Germany
Bruno

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 21:50:27 -0400
From: Alan Benjamin 
Subject: Re: gg: no GG: Re: mastering question; Phish concert

Hello again,

Don writes:

>   Are you saying that nothing gets lost as a result of this
>   filtering?
>
>It's entirely possible for the filtering to remove some desired
>components of the signal as well as adding it's own noises,
>distortions, phase shifts and lord knows what.  Building a really nice
>anti-alias filter is difficult, and there has been some remarkably
>clever work in that area in the last 15 years or so.
[snip]
>Do all higher sampling rate units sound better than all lower sampling
>rate units?  Do all 15-inch woofers sound better than all 12-inch
>woofers?  

This is starting to get a bit too combative for my tastes (my fault as
well), so I'm going to stop here. Besides, GORGG is less than a week away
and I don't want to go in with any trace of bad vibes--no matter the
frequency at which they are sampled. :-)

Take care,


Alan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 19:03:51 -0700
From: JohnEric 
Subject: gg: mania ...

Yes



charles / wmo wrote:

> SLightly on the subject - but isn't THE POWER AND THE GLORY one of the best
> sounding records/cds of all time? This is true reference disc...
>
> charles

- --
Fugazi --- Any opinions?

http://www.mindspring.com/~jjellison/nightsky.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 19:11:23 -0700
From: JohnEric 
Subject: Re: gg: OYE

It is impossible to achieve suffering without pain.  Go for it!

JohnEric

Daniel Potvin wrote:

>  Hi everyone
>
>  OPEN YOUR EYES was soooooo bad that i'm almost affraid to listen to THE LADDER.
>
>  Daniel

- --
Spoken word stuff --- Any opinions?

http://www.mindspring.com/~jjellison/nightsky.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 23:34:35 -0400
From: Daniel Potvin 
Subject: gg: RE: GG: Voivod, Gryphon, Bert, Mellotron, GGG

Geir Hasnes [SMTP:g-hasne@online.no] writes: 
<< I read two years ago in an interview with the Voivod guys that their favourite band was Gentle Giant,  >> 

Indeed they are BIG prog fans , who knew.

Dan

PS i hate voivod's music

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 22:25:01 -0400
From: "Savard-Paquet" 
Subject: gg: last hammill show

have somebody seen Peter Hammill live recently ?  I have my ticket for the
Quebec city show (the 26  october) and I'm curious about songs selection and
the quality of the performance...

Gaetan Paquet

gapa@globetrotter.qc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 23:45:57 -0400
From: Daniel Potvin 
Subject: gg: Carpet Crawlers

 Hi everyone

 Anyone out there heard the new 99 version of Carpet crawlers YET
 including PETER, STEVE, TONY, MIKE and PHIL.

 Daniel

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 22:02:23 -0700
From: JohnEric 
Subject: Re: gg: Carpet Crawlers

I've heard it.  It isn't bad, and is a nice reunion ... however, I
prefer the percussive treatment from The Lamb.  The percussion in this
one is more like the last few Genesis offerings.  This is probably the
way Crawlers would have been played during the threesome tour of duty.

JohnEric

Daniel Potvin wrote:

>  Hi everyone
>
>  Anyone out there heard the new 99 version of Carpet crawlers YET
>  including PETER, STEVE, TONY, MIKE and PHIL.
>
>  Daniel

- --
Fugazi --- Any opinions?

http://www.mindspring.com/~jjellison/nightsky.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 01:20:03 -0400
From: "drj_saro" 
Subject: Re: gg: Carpet Crawlers

From: JohnEric 

>I've heard it.  It isn't bad, and is a nice reunion ... however, I
>prefer the percussive treatment from The Lamb.  The percussion in this
>one is more like the last few Genesis offerings.  This is probably the
>way Crawlers would have been played during the threesome tour of duty.
>

i could never understand why a band with one of the best (maybe?) drummers
in prog would rely so much on _programmed_ drums?!?!
thank you for your time and attention.

Julius J. SAROKA
drj_saro@neo.rr.com
Cuyahoga Falls OHIO

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 03:31:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: mammienun@webtv.net
Subject: Re: gg: Carpet Crawlers

Electronic drums are a soundman's dream. I'm sure that holds true for
recording engineers! It's sooo much easier when you don't have to mike
instruments...I know, I just came from 'there'. BTW...I'm going
back...I'm such a glutton. And which songs do we have for my deadly sin?
mammienut.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 10:22:09 +0100
From: "Fred Rosenkamp" 
Subject: Re: gg: Carpet Crawlers

>i could never understand why a band with one of the best (maybe?) drummers
>in prog would rely so much on _programmed_ drums?!?!

Just a thought: listen to the 'Lamb' on the archive box (or any live
rendition). Then imagine it being done by a machine...

BTW I let my wive (who used to be a great early-Genesis fan - and still is)
have a listen to CC'99. Her initial reaction was: "It's too smooth". I must
say she's right. In a way this version suffers from 'good' production. It
reminds me of a rerecording of 'California Dreaming' done by the Beach Boys
in ± 1987 or so. It sounded overwhelmingly great, but left you feeling kinda
'empty' afterwards. Like having too much cream in your coffee, if you know
what I mean.


Cheers,
Fred

np (on my Mac): KC - Live in Mexico City (thanks Jim for the MP3
conversion!)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 05:29:41 EDT
From: SPBrader@aol.com
Subject: gg: West Side Story - 96bit Digital Remaster

Alan wrote:

<< This is starting to get a bit too combative for my tastes (my fault as
 well), so I'm going to stop here. Besides, GORGG is less than a week away
 and I don't want to go in with any trace of bad vibes--no matter the
 frequency at which they are sampled. :-) >>

Having said that, we could probably get an entry in Ripley's Believe It or 
Not....

Vicious gangs on opposite sides of the digital domain sampling rate debate 
tore apart the Heartland Brewery as the Nyquists and the Psycho-Acousitics 
squared off to each other. Police said that the so-called 24-Bit turf wars 
were the worst they had to deal with since the Bloods and the Crips. The list 
of injuries sustained on both sides was described as horrific. They included 
bruised egos, dented pride, deaf ears and insulted intelligence.
Police issued all points bulletins to track down the ringleaders of these 
nefarious gangs. The high-profile Hiltonius, aka 'The Practitioner' was 
believed to be hiding out in the luxurious suburbs of Long Island. His 
notoriety is due to supplying generations of youths with the highly addictive 
'dance bits'. Recently, insider information has been received by the British 
authorities that he may attempt to supply this highly addictive material to 
boogie addicts in the UK.
Little is known about the shadowy head of the opposing camp. Known variously 
as 'The Theoretician', 'The Weesemeister' or 'Johnson noise Dan' he is known 
to have links with other gangs with similar sympathies. Chief amongst these 
is the so-called Don of the 
Tillman family. Best known for their tactic of extreme intimidation, it is 
believed that the Tillman clan were responsible for placing an anti-phase 
filter in the bed of popular musician Alan Benjamin.
The average man in the street however remains nonplussed, they don't 
understand what it's all about. When interviewed yesterday, a man in the 
street said "I'm nonplussed. I don't understand what it's all about."

Reporting for radio WTF, this is Lunchtime O'Booze handing you back to the 
studio and the latest instalment of Julian B's 44.1 part tribute to Jimmy 
Page.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 03:24:19 -0700
From: William Tindall 
Subject: gg: You widda Jets?

Si forced me to do the following:

AHHHHhahahahaha!!!!!!!!  Ahem.  Pardon me. 
	News at 3 (News at 3???) brings you the latest in the ongoing struggle for power and glory in Person-Land.  
	It has been established that people were involved.  No one has denied this, though all suspects deny any culpability.  When asked, one secret highly-placed source replied "Culp?  What's a Culp?  Oh, you mean that guy from I Spy?"
	Neighboorhud redisence said they had heard nothing after 20k, and were promptly injured emotionally.  Karma police are on the scene to arrest everyone.  Absolutely everyone.
	"Right.  What's all this, then?  I'm afraid you'll have to come along to NYC.  Now don't make a fuss..."

	Oh, just plain tee and HEE!

Bill "Your roving (do I rove?  Really?) other reporter" T 

- -----Original Message-----
From:	SPBrader@aol.com 
Sent:	Sunday, October 03, 1999 2:30 AM
To:	adbenjamin@earthlink.net
Cc:	on-reflection@darkwing.uoregon.edu
Subject:	gg: West Side Story - 96bit Digital Remaster

Alan wrote:

<< This is starting to get a bit too combative for my tastes (my fault as
 well), so I'm going to stop here. Besides, GORGG is less than a week away
 and I don't want to go in with any trace of bad vibes--no matter the
 frequency at which they are sampled. :-) >>

Having said that, we could probably get an entry in Ripley's Believe It or 
Not....

Vicious gangs on opposite sides of the digital domain sampling rate debate 
tore apart the Heartland Brewery as the Nyquists and the Psycho-Acousitics 
squared off to each other. Police said that the so-called 24-Bit turf wars 
were the worst they had to deal with since the Bloods and the Crips. The list 
of injuries sustained on both sides was described as horrific. They included 
bruised egos, dented pride, deaf ears and insulted intelligence.
Police issued all points bulletins to track down the ringleaders of these 
nefarious gangs. The high-profile Hiltonius, aka 'The Practitioner' was 
believed to be hiding out in the luxurious suburbs of Long Island. His 
notoriety is due to supplying generations of youths with the highly addictive 
'dance bits'. Recently, insider information has been received by the British 
authorities that he may attempt to supply this highly addictive material to 
boogie addicts in the UK.
Little is known about the shadowy head of the opposing camp. Known variously 
as 'The Theoretician', 'The Weesemeister' or 'Johnson noise Dan' he is known 
to have links with other gangs with similar sympathies. Chief amongst these 
is the so-called Don of the 
Tillman family. Best known for their tactic of extreme intimidation, it is 
believed that the Tillman clan were responsible for placing an anti-phase 
filter in the bed of popular musician Alan Benjamin.
The average man in the street however remains nonplussed, they don't 
understand what it's all about. When interviewed yesterday, a man in the 
street said "I'm nonplussed. I don't understand what it's all about."

Reporting for radio WTF, this is Lunchtime O'Booze handing you back to the 
studio and the latest instalment of Julian B's 44.1 part tribute to Jimmy 
Page.

------------------------------

End of on-reflection-digest V1 #1893
************************************

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