on-reflection-digest     Monday, October 4 1999     Volume 01 : Number 1895



Re: gg: West Side Story - 96bit Digital Remaster
gg: Carpet Crawlers & Artisans
gg: One more thing about Crawlers
gg: RE: Doonesbury and Us
gg: Re: West Side Story - 96bit Digital Remaster
gg: more audio gab
gg: Brader takes job with Ripley!
gg: A Big Digital Thank You
gg: RE: White boy music
gg: RE: West Side Story - 96bit Digital Remaster
gg: PS i hate voivod's music
gg: New Prog webcasts on RFK
Re: gg: more digital audio mania
Re: gg: no GG: Re: mastering question; Phish concert
gg: Re: more digital audio mania than most people can stand
gg: Re: more digital audio mania than most people can stand
gg: Ripley's News Item!!
Re: gg: more digital audio mania
gg: RE: West Side Story - 96bit Digital Remaster
gg: Spoken word stuff --- Any opinions?
gg: Carpet Crawlers/Geir/Mets
Re: gg: Spoken word stuff --- Any opinions?
gg: Breuker show
gg: Whew!
gg: Please, let O-R be Gaines-free!
gg: GG: About Gentle Giant
gg: Ontopoligical (or GG content?)
Re: gg: Breuker show
gg: Re: West Side Story - 96bit Digital Remaster
Re: gg: RE: White boy music

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 06:00:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: JohnEric 
Subject: Re: gg: West Side Story - 96bit Digital Remaster

A battle of Epping proportions.

JohnEric

- --- SPBrader@aol.com wrote:
> Alan wrote:
> 
> Vicious gangs on opposite sides of the digital domain sampling rate
> debate 
> tore apart the Heartland Brewery as the Nyquists and the
> Psycho-Acousitics 
> squared off to each other. 

=====
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 06:44:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: JohnEric 
Subject: gg: Carpet Crawlers & Artisans

Speaking of deadly sins, I once knew a guy who worked as a drum and bass
roadie.  We saw the "Flying in a Blue Dream" Satriani tour, and that guy
literally tore the sound apart during the entire concert.  He knew what
the guys had done properly and wrongly to the sound stage.  He shrugged
off the poor sound for the opening band, because he said that was to be
expected, but during the Satriani set the guy sounded like an old-world
artisan barking at apprentice worker ants.  'Artisan' is the operative
word here.  The drummer for Def Leppard (Who I respect for not giving up
entirely ... and the band for keeping him) has a handle on the use of
electronic drums, as does Phil ... but die-hard old-world artisans will
always prefer skins, cymbols, and vibes, over silicon chips.  there's no
help for it.  For the most part, I'm in the old-world artisan camp.

JohnEric

- --- mammienun@webtv.net wrote:
> Electronic drums are a soundman's dream. I'm sure that holds true for
> recording engineers! It's sooo much easier when you don't have to mike
> instruments...



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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 06:57:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: JohnEric 
Subject: gg: One more thing about Crawlers

In an earlier post I compared the new Crawlers to Duke.  Now, after
reading a few posts on this entire issue I can put it into words more
succinctly.  Duke was a smoothly polished release.  As I believe Fred put
it, the new Crawlers is so smooth ...    That is the connection.  Duke was
smooth and used a lot of electronic drum work.  I did like Duke and I
wouldn't consider re-mixing it to sound more like The Lamb.

JohnEric



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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 09:45:04 EDT
From: MHB1212GG@aol.com
Subject: gg: RE: Doonesbury and Us

    Anybody happen to catch Doonesbury in Sundays (todays) paper??? You have 
to read it. Anybody know if Garry Trudeau is a list member??? Oh, never 
mind...if he was he would probably be lampooning audio.
            Mark Hans
            n.p. original music only

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 09:49:54 -0400
From: Richard Worthy 
Subject: gg: Re: West Side Story - 96bit Digital Remaster

This is the reason I put up with my inbox being swampped every day. One of
the greatest peices of literature I have ever read. This arguement is
rapidly becoming one of my favorites, and this little news break puts
everything right into perspective.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 09:48:02 -0400
From: Richard Hilton 
Subject: gg: more audio gab

At 3:18 AM -0700 10/3/99, Don Tillman wrote:
>Do all higher sampling rate units sound better than all lower sampling
>rate units?

No, not by a long shot.  But at their best, the higher sampling rate 
will be better - up to a point.  We're nowhere near that point yet in 
practice.

> Do all 15-inch woofers sound better than all 12-inch
>woofers?

Not only isn't that true, but a good case could be made for the 
opposite.  "All" of anything doesn't sound better than "all" of 
anything else, generally speaking.

Course, these were probably rhetorical questions to begin with.....  8^)

BTW, for those of you caught up in this "analog/digital playback - 
which is 'better'" debate - that was never what this whole discussion 
was intended to be about at the beginning (lest there be some 
misunderstanding about that).  In fact, I specifically said that I 
would not take a position of that whole conundrum (it really doesn't 
matter, as the vinyl LP has already gone the way of the Edison 
cylinder).  However, if it floats yer boat, then go on ahead and row 
for all you're worth.

Best,
Rich


Richard Hilton/Boppybop Toons Inc.
http://members.aol.com/hiltonius/BTI_page.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 09:53:10 -0400
From: Richard Hilton 
Subject: gg: Brader takes job with Ripley!

At 3:18 AM -0700 10/3/99, Si Brader wrote:

....one of the funniest things I've read in a very long time.  God 
bless ya, Si.

>The high-profile Hiltonius, aka 'The Practitioner' was
>believed to be hiding out in the luxurious suburbs of Long Island. His
>notoriety is due to supplying generations of youths with the highly addictive
>'dance bits'.

Hangin's too good for 'im.  He should be deep fried and served with a 
chipolte cream sauce.

>Recently, insider information has been received by the British
>authorities that he may attempt to supply this highly addictive material to
>boogie addicts in the UK.

This is no joke.....Chic tour of England begins December 15th in Newcastle!

Shamelessly plugging away,
Rich


Richard Hilton/Boppybop Toons Inc.
http://members.aol.com/hiltonius/BTI_page.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 12:34:30 EDT
From: Dokwebb@aol.com
Subject: gg: A Big Digital Thank You

I just want to thank all the participants for the Digital postings and 
explanations.  Helped give me an overview of the process....  I have gathered 
them all up and sent them on to some friends in the recording business to get 
their 2 cents worth...

I guess everyone is getting excited about next weekend.  For all of us 
newbies, lurkers,  and ones left behind.... I do hope someone will keep us up 
to date here of the events and happenings, fisticuffs, etc...  and especially 
Derek's presence at the dinner.  When will the video be coming out?!?!


np:  Bill Frisell - Good Dog, Happy Man

so sincerely,   dok

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 13:42:20 -0400 
From: Toby Trott 
Subject: gg: RE: White boy music

Wacky predominantly white and mostly male racontuers,

Bert replied to JJW's remark:
> No offense intended, and I hope none is taken by anyone.
> It's just that I don't understand why the excessive
> caucasianality* of Phish's audience would bother you  --
> after all, isn't it true for most of the bands discussed on
> this list?

I think it is simply a desire that the music we enjoy so much 
would have a more universal appeal, because we know it is so
good. Then again, part of the appeal of the music is that it 
is NOT cut from the same mold as what is popular. Quite a
dilemma, eh? 

If it is any comfort to you, JJW, I saw a few (2 or 3) black
people in attendance at the Progday festival in Chapel Hill,
NC back on labor day weekend. Maybe they were just coming in
to get out of the rain (as what was left of hurricane Dennis
chose that weekend to pass through) but I believe they were
there for the duration of the Sunday events and were actual
fans of prog.

I believe this is similar to the dearth of females in this 
group. There is something about this music that has mostly 
testosteroniousness* along with it's caucasianality. Maybe 
Dr. Skull, the psychologist of the group can decipher it for 
us. Or, maybe this is more the realm of sociology.

Basically, though, it boils down to:
White boys can't dance. We white boys have learned to like music 
that is clearly not intended for dancing. :-)

"I'm a danceless fooooooool. I'm a danceless foooooool.
 I may be totoally wrong but I'm a danceless foooooool."

*(you're not the only one who gets to make up words, bert)

Toby "three left feet" Trott

@work I'm trott@sas.com, 
       but I become tjtrott@mindspring.com in the dark of night!
- --------------
...world's a stage...play their parts...
        I have chosen caucais-a-tuer honky-a-dor

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 13:46:22 -0400
From: "Nick" 
Subject: gg: RE: West Side Story - 96bit Digital Remaster

No More Calls, please -- we have a winner!

Post of the Year!

On an only semi-related note [a C#, if you  must know], I guess I'll use
Si's post to hang my note on --

I wanted to wish everyone attending GORGG a wonderful time of Pantagruelian
proportions. Having attended a gathering of the Richard Thompson list, I can
attest to how much fun this should prove to be!

Truly wish I could be there, but circumstances, etc etc.

Think of me with kindness. . .

- --Nick P.

NP: Chris [Garth Brooks] Gaines - Greatest Hits. This is way out of left
field: the best Loggins & Messina record in 20 years, and better than
anything on "The Ladder".  And no -- I'm not kidding! A great record! L&M
fans [and you know who you are] run, do not walk, to the nearest store to
pick this up!

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-on-reflection@lists.uoregon.edu
[mailto:owner-on-reflection@lists.uoregon.edu]On Behalf Of
SPBrader@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 1999 5:30 AM
To: adbenjamin@earthlink.net
Cc: on-reflection@darkwing.uoregon.edu
Subject: gg: West Side Story - 96bit Digital Remaster


Alan wrote:

<< This is starting to get a bit too combative for my tastes (my fault as
 well), so I'm going to stop here. Besides, GORGG is less than a week away
 and I don't want to go in with any trace of bad vibes--no matter the
 frequency at which they are sampled. :-) >>

Having said that, we could probably get an entry in Ripley's Believe It or
Not....

Vicious gangs on opposite sides of the digital domain sampling rate debate
tore apart the Heartland Brewery as the Nyquists and the Psycho-Acousitics
squared off to each other. Police said that the so-called 24-Bit turf wars
were the worst they had to deal with since the Bloods and the Crips. The
list
of injuries sustained on both sides was described as horrific. They included
bruised egos, dented pride, deaf ears and insulted intelligence.
Police issued all points bulletins to track down the ringleaders of these
nefarious gangs. The high-profile Hiltonius, aka 'The Practitioner' was
believed to be hiding out in the luxurious suburbs of Long Island. His
notoriety is due to supplying generations of youths with the highly
addictive
'dance bits'. Recently, insider information has been received by the British
authorities that he may attempt to supply this highly addictive material to
boogie addicts in the UK.
Little is known about the shadowy head of the opposing camp. Known variously
as 'The Theoretician', 'The Weesemeister' or 'Johnson noise Dan' he is known
to have links with other gangs with similar sympathies. Chief amongst these
is the so-called Don of the
Tillman family. Best known for their tactic of extreme intimidation, it is
believed that the Tillman clan were responsible for placing an anti-phase
filter in the bed of popular musician Alan Benjamin.
The average man in the street however remains nonplussed, they don't
understand what it's all about. When interviewed yesterday, a man in the
street said "I'm nonplussed. I don't understand what it's all about."

Reporting for radio WTF, this is Lunchtime O'Booze handing you back to the
studio and the latest instalment of Julian B's 44.1 part tribute to Jimmy
Page.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 14:23:34 EDT
From: "Reginald Dunlop" 
Subject: gg: PS i hate voivod's music

Hello!

Daniel Potvin  wrote about Voivod:

>PS i hate voivod's music

Either you're not smoking enough pot, or you're drinking too much wine. By 
reading your e-mail address, I think you're doing more of the latter...bunch 
of drunkin' frauds!!! I might be a little nicer if you'd explain *why* you 
don't like Voivod's music. :)

Have a nice day! ;)

REG

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 13:40:51 -0500
From: Steve Taaffe 
Subject: gg: New Prog webcasts on RFK

Due to popular requests a Cable Modem Prog webcast has been added. It's
encoded at
96 kbps.      http://www.tafcommedia.net/audio/highspeed1.ram

Progressive Music Webcast Show 1 at
http://www.tafcommedia.net/audio/progcast1.ram

Progressive Music Webcast Show 2 at
http://www.tafcommedia.net/audio/progcast2.ram

Progressive Music Webcast Show 3 at
http://www.tafcommedia.net/audio/progcast3.ram

Frank Lauria helped me put together a Todd Rundgren webcast. This was
this past weeks
2nd most popular show listened to.
http://www.tafcommedia.net/audio/toddrundgren.ram

The King Crimson webcast has been heavily listened to also
http://www.tafcommedia.net/kc.ram

Tom Gagliardi has given RFK permission to webcast his own radio shows.
We have one
of his latest which includes a Rick Wakeman Interview. See our website
for the info.

 .

Steve Taaffe
Internet Radio Free Kansas
http://www.tafcommedia.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 11:31:50 PDT
From: "Dan Weese" 
Subject: Re: gg: more digital audio mania

>I appear to have struck a nerve.  I'm sorry Dan.  I really wanted to
>know what gave you the impression that "real 24 bit" doesn't exist,
>and you decided to get insulted.

Well, there's something about being directly contradicted.

>I invite you once again to explain why you believe that 24 bit
>recording doesn't exist?

Look, you can make a recording at any bitwidth resolution you care to.  But 
you're still using mics in the real world, that is to say, the analog world. 
  The microphone will do its best to accurately reproduce the waveforms that 
strike it, and the A/D will spit out whatever number you want it to.  But 
the mic is not an infinitely perfect device: there is Johnson noise in it.  
And there's Johnson noise being added with every resistor and op-amp the 
signal goes through.  The Johnson noise means that 24 bit resolution isn't 
capturing any more music, because enough white noise is present to muddy the 
recording sufficiently to offset the benefits of the addition resolution.  
It would be possible to capture more detail, but that detail is being 
obscured by the Johnson noise, which imposes a limit on how much resolution 
can be captured, a limit imposed by the Noise-equivalent power equations 
given at:

http://www.centrovision.com/tech2.htm#NEP

Ignore that this describes photodiodes, the Johnson noise is being generated 
by shunt resistance.  Scroll down and you'll notice that Bandwidth part of 
the numerator is (4KTB), where B = Bandwidth.

Bottom line: anyone who says 24 bit makes a more accurate recording than 16 
bit at the same sampling rate is a salesman, or is just plain wrong.  The 
salesmen can scream and holler all day long, but they can't argue with 
Bolzmann's constant or the Johnson Noise Equation.

This whole debate reminds me of the absurd wrangling I've heard over whether 
silver flutes sound better than other metal flutes.  As Peter Gabriel 
pointed out, "with a perfume, you can bottle all you make"

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 11:47:25 PDT
From: "Dan Weese" 
Subject: Re: gg: no GG: Re: mastering question; Phish concert

>I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with this. Although Nyquist's theory holds
>true when you look at the frequency of the analog source that can be
>sampled, it does not represent how accurately the timbre can be
>represented. As an extreme example, how could a 44.1kHz sample
>differentiate between a square wave, sine wave, and sawtooth wave that are
>all 20kHz (even optimally sampled)? Each cycle could only be represented by
>two samples, resulting the same digital representation. Regardless of how
>the DA converters "smooth" things out, there is no differentiation.
>

Well, since nobody could hear it anyway, it would be a moot point.

Old Zen koan:  if the tree falls in the woods, will anyone hear its timbre?



>Now think of a 10kHz frequency, which now has to be represented with four
>samples per cycle. Same principal, but now twice the differentiation. And
>so on.... Of course the harmonic frequencies play a big part in how we
>perceive the results, but this very much applies to those as well. The
>higher the sample rate, the better these timbres can be differentiated, and
>the better it will sound.
>
>I tend to agree with everything Rich has posted in regard to this issue
>(especially nice job on the original response). It's sort of amusing that
>this topic starts taking on arguments of a nearly religious/political
>level. Perhaps we should set up a test lab as part of GORGG. :-)
>
>Take care,
>
>
>Alan
>
>  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>| Alan Benjamin                      e-mail: adbenjamin@earthlink.net |
>| Advent Home Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~adbenjamin/advent.html |
>  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 12:17:22 PDT
From: "Dan Weese" 
Subject: gg: Re: more digital audio mania than most people can stand

>I ask a genuine practical question, asked without prejudice:  I
>wonder if either Dan or Don has spent much time comparing the results
>of recording to 16 bit vs 24 bit at the same sample frequency in a
>controlled environment?  If so, what did you guys HEAR?  Was it just
>what you expected to hear, or was it in some way surprising to you?

Sure have.  I work with it, specifically with chipsets/DSPs handling 
realtime audio streams in AES/EBU in both pro mode (with the longer word 
length) and in the consumer mode.

I build test equipment.  Lots of it.  Audio and video test equipment and 
pattern recognition gear, and artificial intelligence trainable 
discriminators.  The human ear and eye are easily fooled, and are remarkably 
biased, hence the need for real factory automation techniques to rule out 
these biases.

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 15:37:17 -0400
From: Richard Hilton 
Subject: gg: Re: more digital audio mania than most people can stand

I wrote:

>>I ask a genuine practical question, asked without prejudice:  I
>>wonder if either Dan or Don has spent much time comparing the results
>>of recording to 16 bit vs 24 bit at the same sample frequency in a
>>controlled environment?  If so, what did you guys HEAR?  Was it just
>>what you expected to hear, or was it in some way surprising to you?

And Dan kindly responded:

>Sure have.  I work with it, specifically with chipsets/DSPs handling 
>realtime audio streams in AES/EBU in both pro mode (with the longer 
>word length) and in the consumer mode.
>
>I build test equipment.  Lots of it.  Audio and video test equipment 
>and pattern recognition gear, and artificial intelligence trainable 
>discriminators.  The human ear and eye are easily fooled, and are 
>remarkably biased, hence the need for real factory automation 
>techniques to rule out these biases.

You say you've heard it, please tell us what you've heard.  Is your 
work mostly in the building of test gear, the operation of the test 
gear, the construction of the tests, or the evaluation of the 
results?  I believe that we're easily fooled......now I want to 
understand the conclusions that you've reached so that I can better 
understand your position about this.  Also, please describe the 
controls in the environment.

Thanks Dan.

Best,
Rich


Richard Hilton/Boppybop Toons Inc.
http://members.aol.com/hiltonius/BTI_page.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 12:49:34 -0700
From: "Skip Rizzo, Ph.D." 
Subject: gg: Ripley's News Item!!

THIS IS GREAT! I needed a chuckle like this...can't wait till Friday!!

Best Regards,

Dr. Skull


>
>Vicious gangs on opposite sides of the digital domain sampling rate debate 
>tore apart the Heartland Brewery as the Nyquists and the Psycho-Acousitics 
>squared off to each other. Police said that the so-called 24-Bit turf wars 
>were the worst they had to deal with since the Bloods and the Crips. The
list 
>of injuries sustained on both sides was described as horrific. They included 
>bruised egos, dented pride, deaf ears and insulted intelligence.
>Police issued all points bulletins to track down the ringleaders of these 
>nefarious gangs. The high-profile Hiltonius, aka 'The Practitioner' was 
>believed to be hiding out in the luxurious suburbs of Long Island. His 
>notoriety is due to supplying generations of youths with the highly
addictive 
>'dance bits'. Recently, insider information has been received by the British 
>authorities that he may attempt to supply this highly addictive material to 
>boogie addicts in the UK.
>Little is known about the shadowy head of the opposing camp. Known variously 
>as 'The Theoretician', 'The Weesemeister' or 'Johnson noise Dan' he is known 
>to have links with other gangs with similar sympathies. Chief amongst these 
>is the so-called Don of the 
>Tillman family. Best known for their tactic of extreme intimidation, it is 
>believed that the Tillman clan were responsible for placing an anti-phase 
>filter in the bed of popular musician Alan Benjamin.
>The average man in the street however remains nonplussed, they don't 
>understand what it's all about. When interviewed yesterday, a man in the 
>street said "I'm nonplussed. I don't understand what it's all about."
>
>Reporting for radio WTF, this is Lunchtime O'Booze handing you back to the 
>studio and the latest instalment of Julian B's 44.1 part tribute to Jimmy 
>Page.
>
Albert "Skip" Rizzo, Ph.D.
Research Assistant Professor 
Integrated Media Systems Center
and School of Gerontology
University of Southern California
3715 McClintock Ave. MC-0191
Los Angeles, CA. 90089-0191

email: arizzo@mizar.usc.edu
phone: 213-740-9819
fax:   213-740-8241

IMSC: A National Science Foundation Engineering Research Center at USC
http://imsc.usc.edu

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 21:18:28 +0100
From: Bob Taylor 
Subject: Re: gg: more digital audio mania

In message <19991003183151.19042.qmail@hotmail.com>, Dan Weese
 writes

>Bottom line: anyone who says 24 bit makes a more accurate recording than 16 
>bit at the same sampling rate is a salesman, or is just plain wrong.  The 
>salesmen can scream and holler all day long, but they can't argue with 
>Bolzmann's constant or the Johnson Noise Equation.


I personally like the Welsh rare-bit.
Not much of a sound but the Taste Equation
is pretty constant. Sampling? No, I just eat
the lot.
 
Bob
- -- 
Bob Taylor

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 16:43:23 -0400
From: Alan Benjamin 
Subject: gg: RE: West Side Story - 96bit Digital Remaster

Hi,

At 01:46 PM 10/3/99 -0400, Nick P. wrote:
>No More Calls, please -- we have a winner!
>
>Post of the Year!

Yes, I must agree! Leave it to Si to sneak somethink like this up on us. (I
thought something felt a little rough under the sheets lately.)

On a tangentially related note: I just happened upon the new 24-bit
remaster of KC's _In the Court of the Crimson King_ (limited edition with
miniature LP-style cover). Don't know how it sounds yet (don't want to
depress the family so I'm going to wait and play it in the car tomorrow),
but the packaging is nice. It's fortunate that I never got around to buying
the album on CD until now. If it was only sampled at 96k though.... :-)
(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

Take it easy,


Alan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 17:56:29 -0400
From: Bert Rubini 
Subject: gg: Spoken word stuff --- Any opinions?

John Eric asked:


> Spoken word stuff --- Any opinions?
>
Well, if you can find a copy of Allen Ginsberg's "The Lion for
Real" I think that's worth checking out.  Also, the band Material
used lots of spoken word by William S. Burroughs on their CDs
(esp. "Seven Souls", in which Burroughs appears on most of the
tracks).  Material is a very good band:  Bill Laswell, Bootsy
Collins and Bernie Worell are all involved on this project.

Also, lots of people on this list are fans of Ken Nordine and the
spoken word albums he did in the 50s (and 60s?).

All of the above are spoken word with musical accompaniment.

bert

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 18:38:22 -0400
From: "Gary Citro" 
Subject: gg: Carpet Crawlers/Geir/Mets

David Eric wrote:
> I agree with JohnEric.  It's nice to hear the vocals and instrumentation,
> but that annoying percussion track kinda ruins it for me.  They aren't
> getting my $15 for one song, that's for sure.  -David Eric

So I guess you have heard it though.
I haven't, and I don't intend to spend the $15 either.
However, I am downloading it at this moment.
For those unaware, it's a free download at www.Genesis-web.com

I'm picking up Geir Hasnes at the airport Tuesday night.
The Mets just swept the Pirates and are guaranteed at least a playoff game
for the wild card.
How many miracles can I take in one week?!

Gary Citro
(I hope Geir from Norway likes baseball! :-) )

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 17:07:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: JohnEric 
Subject: Re: gg: Spoken word stuff --- Any opinions?

I'll take those under advisement.  Thanks.  I have quite a collection of
Burroughs.  I also have "You're the Guy I Want To Share My Money With"
that features Laurie Anderson, John Giorno, and Burroughs.  Each of them
have distinctly different styles.  Have you heard the Steven Jesse
Bernstein "Prison"?  I was introduced to him when I lived in Seattle.

JohnEric

- --- Bert Rubini  wrote:
> John Eric asked:
> 
> 
> > Spoken word stuff --- Any opinions?
> >
> Well, if you can find a copy of Allen Ginsberg's "The Lion for
> Real" I think that's worth checking out.  Also, the band Material
> used lots of spoken word by William S. Burroughs on their CDs
> (esp. "Seven Souls", in which Burroughs appears on most of the
> tracks).  Material is a very good band:  Bill Laswell, Bootsy
> Collins and Bernie Worell are all involved on this project.
> 
> Also, lots of people on this list are fans of Ken Nordine and the
> spoken word albums he did in the 50s (and 60s?).
> 
> All of the above are spoken word with musical accompaniment.
> 
> bert
> 
> 



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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 20:25:38 -0400
From: "Drew W. Eaton" 
Subject: gg: Breuker show

Hey all.  Back from Rochester and I see I stirred up a hornet's nest with my
tech questions.  Sheesh. :-)  I hope everyone's pulse has returned to normal
and that we won't have any squaring off at GORGG!

Onto the reason for this post:  Friday night I was fortunate to have the
opportunity to see the Willem Breuker Kollectief.  It was a remarkable and
absolutely unique performance in my musical experience (spanning 28 years
and hundreds of live shows).  I cannot possibly adequately relate what I
saw/heard but I will quote from a few items published in Rochester area
papers:  Democrat and Chronicle critic Jeff Spevak wrote (in a preview):
"And Breuker, he's celebrating the 25th anniversary of the Willem Breuker
Kollectief (WBK).  A leader on the Dutch avant-garde jazz scene as a
composer and arranger, Breuker's wildly inventive Kollectief can number as
many as 11 musicians (there were10 for this show-Drew) whose primary
influences are Duke Ellington and the Marx Bros.  The band specializes in
the horn section's precision instrument flailing and interrupting pieces by
Kurt Weil and George Gershwin with non sequitur blasts of circus noises."
Chad Oliveiri, writing for City (one of those freebie rags every urban area
has) says: "Breuker's compositions are influenced by such far flung sources
as Kurt Weill, Hanns Eisler, Ellington, Circus music, assorted folk styles,
Erik Satie and George Gershwin.   A typical Breuker piece (a contradiction
in terms, really) finds the Kollectief functioning almost like a sampler,
collaging (!) a bizarre variety of materials-marches, hymns, waltzes,
national anthems-at Breuker's whim.  The Kollectief doesn't merely play
music, it plays WITH music (author's emphasis)  But you don't have to follow
Breuker's references to get something out of his musical mishmash.  Some of
the Kollectief's biggest fans say they  like the group simply because its
music makes them feel good.  It's exciting and, even more important, it
makes them laugh.  During their live shows the Kollectief comes across as
some sort of oddball, post-modern vaudeville act.  Tuba players solo busily
while bandmates pick their pockets. stash their cash, cut their hair;
pianist Henk de Jong frequently takes the rear end approach to his keyboard;
trombonists and trumpet players do their best Tom and Jerry impersonations
while chasing each other off the stage."  and later:  "The WBK's virtuosity
is scary.  As with any ensemble that would include Prokofiev's Romeo and
Juliet and Ennio Morricone's The Good, The Bad and the Ugly in its
repertoire and live to tell about it, the Kollectief, for all of its
tomfoolery, is a tight ensemble.  It takes a steady hand and plenty of skill
to make such a well-oiled group appear undisciplined, to make an audience
laugh instead of exhausting it with its efficiency." Finally:  "A pervading
humanity seems to influence everything Breuker and his Kollectief do on a
musical and performance level".  'The secret to great music lies in appeal
to the intuitive as well as the intellectual listener' he says, 'If my music
has such appeal then I consider myself to be a successful composer.  As I've
said before, I do take music seriously.  However, I strongly feel that
earnestness should be tempered with humor and modesty.  If people think I'm
being irreverent, fuck 'em."
    The show I saw featured a similar variety of elements and healthy doses
of abstraction, both improvised   and (as nearly as I could tell) composed.
The stylistic fits and starts, the comic overtures, the spasms of musical
non- sequiturs all combined for a delightful evening.  There was a crowd of
perhaps 150 people there and they applauded enthusiastically, bringing the
band out three times for encores.  When I looked around, it didn't seem like
a crowd I would have thought would be there....it seemed like a lot of
normal looking people :-)  but they loved it.  It may not be for everyone,
but it was definitely different and very refreshing.  They're still touring
(playing Buffalo during GORGG!).  I gave you this URL for info before but
here it is again:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~wbk/  Finally, I'd just like to comment about how
pertinent this all seemed in light of the recent discussion of composition,
including  theme development and the collage approach.  All of these
disparate elements were made to work by what had to be an intuitive process
rather than an objective,  intellectual one.  Doubtless there are points in
which certain theoretical devices are used in order to connect phrases or
passages but overall it did not strike me as the result of a strict
implementation of a "system" such as Geir has described as being extant in
certain GG compositions.  Further, despite the vast quantity of diverse
elements in any given piece, the piece does indeed "progress"....it gets
from point A to B to C.  Whether it does this with the benefit of some
implied or subliminal or mathematical system, I'm not smart enough say.  It
just doesn't seem like it does.  ...but the music absolutely does not suffer
for it IMO.
Drew
np-Davey Graham-Fire in the soul

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 17:21:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: JohnEric 
Subject: gg: Whew!

Whew! Is it getting hot in here, or is it just me?  I thought I'd raised a
controversy when I brought up "Giant for a Day".  This digital debate is
amazing.

JohnEric



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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 20:28:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Barney Rubble 
Subject: gg: Please, let O-R be Gaines-free!

Hey all,

Now, Nick, I don't want to slight you here or make you angry, but:
> NP: Chris [Garth Brooks] Gaines - Greatest Hits. This is way
> out of left field: the best Loggins & Messina record in 20
> years, and better than anything on "The Ladder".  And no -- I'm
> not kidding! A great record! L&M fans [and you know who you
> are] run, do not walk, to the nearest store to pick this up!

Please keep "The Emperor's New Clothes" of the 20th Century off this list! There are enough REAL bands and artists out there that deserve to be spoken of much more than Garth Brooks' idea-from-a-stolen-idea-from-many-stolen-ideas! I don't even want to waste bandwidth here, nor engage in a flame war with anyone, but please, I hear enough about Garth Brooks/Chris Gaines everywhere without having to hear it here! It takes away precious space that could be used to promote artists who are really trying to do something for the music, not for the Power and the Glory. And to compare it to "The Ladder", no matter how bad you think that album is... At least they are honestly trying to do something themselves.

I have MORE than enough points to discuss over this whole charade, but not on the O-R list,
Glen (aka Barney Rubble)
who rarely gets angry on this mailing list... anybody counting?

PS: Once for Rick Butler, I believe that was all.
- -----------------------------------------------
FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com
Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 22:33:40 -0500
From: DE Johnson 
Subject: gg: GG: About Gentle Giant

"Pablo"  wrote:
>Threre isn't much Gentle Giant fans in this place of the world, but
>I'm one of them!...I also have a t-shirt with the cover of the first 
>album. It was made by myself! The people laugh in the street because 
>"the gnome" seems a politician! 

The gnome _is_ a politician! That's GGreat!!

Mems of Old Daze really screwed with my head when it came out. It was 
like they were looking back on the past while they were creating its 
demise. Pictures of the future with mems of the recent past... 

My Spanish isn't nearly as good as your English. Don't sweat it.

DJ/CiViLiAN/Raconteur/le Uncroyable M. Personne	

Please visit my website and check out some of the 
soundfiles, etc. at: http://www.raconteurprod.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 00:13:31 -0500
From: DE Johnson 
Subject: gg: Ontopoligical (or GG content?)

"charles / wmo"  wrote:
>SLightly on the subject - but isn't THE POWER AND THE GLORY one of the best
>sounding records/cds of all time? This is true reference disc...

Hail to the Power and to Glory's Way! 

It was for me when I purchased my Linn Sondek in the mid-80's. It helped 
me make a decision on amplification and speakers as well. I heard things 
on that record I had never heard before. 

Which reminds me. I cooked hamburgers and veggies with my son tonite 
and, while we worked, we listened to GG's FH. I had given him the 
choice of tPatG, I, and FH. When TtK sounded its first few notes, he 
got a big grin on his face (and a smile in its place) and said, "Hey! 
This is my fav GG!!" 

Not bad for six years old. I put him to bed with Bach's "Goldberg 
Variations" for the fourth time tonite, giving him a choice between 
the Bach and Dvorak's cello conc...he chose Bach. He loves the stuff.

DJ/CiViLiAN/Raconteur/le Uncroyable M. Personne	

Please visit my website and check out some of the 
soundfiles, etc. at: http://www.raconteurprod.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 07:46:06 +0100
From: "Fred Rosenkamp" 
Subject: Re: gg: Breuker show

Hey Drew,

Thanks for the stimulating & motivating review. 'Though I have seen/heard
Willem Breuker play at one or two occasions in the past (but w/out the WBK),
this review made me realise that I've missed out
on something special. I will take the next opportunity to catch the WBK here
in Holland.

Cheers,
Fred

  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 02:41:55 EDT
From: SPBrader@aol.com
Subject: gg: Re: West Side Story - 96bit Digital Remaster

Alan Benjamin writes:

<<  (I thought something felt a little rough under the sheets lately.) >>

Has Amy been neglecting the bikini line line again? I hate it when that 
happens ;-)

Si

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 06:38:59 EDT
From: ProggRockk@aol.com
Subject: Re: gg: RE: White boy music

But we're not stuck in 4/4. If you go to places in Eastern Europe like 
Bulgaria, you can see folks dancing in meters like 11/8, 13/8, etc. Last 
week, I heard an amazing CD of Bulgarian Wedding Music.

your neighbor, Raleigh Billy

ps: we'll meet sometime, right now I'm working two jobs, 70 hpw

------------------------------

End of on-reflection-digest V1 #1895
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