Subj: on-reflection-digest V1 #1898
Date: 10/5/99 6:04:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time
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on-reflection-digest Tuesday, October 5 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1898



RE: gg: Under construction
gg: my phish(y) comment?
RE: gg: Ladder's tour
gg: RE: Re: Carpet crawlers
Re: gg: re: Dropping some NYC
gg: Re: more digital audio mania than most people can stand
RE: gg: re: Dropping some NYC
RE: gg: Ladder's tour
Re: gg: showing is proof
gg: The Musical Box
gg: Dropping some NYC
Re: gg: RE: Re: Carpet crawlers
gg: Fugazi & Minor Threat
Re: gg: Fugazi & Minor Threat
gg: Re: more digital audio mania than most people can stand

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 01:48:12 -0400
From: Daniel Potvin
Subject: RE: gg: Under construction

<<< Under construction is an excellent album for GG fans. >>>

It sure is.................Daniel





------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 22:51:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: James Warren
Subject: gg: my phish(y) comment?

- -thanks to Bert and Toby for the replies.

Toby, I guess after seeing the mass dancing at the
phish show last week, I have to disagree with the old
adage that "white boys can't dance"! :-) However,
this WAS a true assessment of the "old men" (my friend
and I) at the concert. ;-)

Once Again, quoting some of what Bert wrote:
> No offense intended, and I hope none is taken by
anyone.
> It's just that I don't understand why the excessive
> caucasianality* of Phish's audience would bother you
--
> after all, isn't it true for most of the bands
discussed on
> this list?
And also what Toby added:
"I think it is simply a desire that the music we enjoy
so much
would have a more universal appeal, because we know it
is so
good..."

- --yeah Toby, that is definitely a part of it for me.
When it comes to music, I still have some of that old
'60s idealistic view about "its" universal power to
speak and bring love to people, transcending race,
religion, and so on. Phish already seem(s) to have
broken some rules and assumed barriers by playing
music that is challenging and different, but, at the
same time, popular (to this youth culture,
particularly). With a new millenium approaching, and
successive, younger generations of people coming of
age, I optimistically still hold out some hope for
more racial reconciliation, and less racial, ethnic
and social division. Any chance black against white
against black racial problems will someday be phased
out and relegated to history?... kind of like a phrase from Rich H.> "the vinyl LP has already gone
the way of the Edison cylinder."

JJW


=====
"Every day of my life, I'll do whatever it takes to win.
I'll get hit in the face with a ball if I have to. I'd love to play four days and pitch every fifth."
- -Mike Hampton, Houston Astros' winningest pitcher for a single season (22 wins in 1999), as well as club record holder for hits by a pitcher (23 hits in 1999)
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 02:05:44 -0400
From: Daniel Potvin
Subject: RE: gg: Ladder's tour

Pablo [SMTP:pabloalv@inti.gov.ar] writes:
<<< I think the best song of the concert was "awaken". >>>

I'm sure it was without a doubt but PERPETUAL CHANGE must of been
totally AWESOME too...Dan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 02:30:45 -0400
From: Daniel Potvin
Subject: gg: RE: Re: Carpet crawlers

Pablo [SMTP:pabloalv@inti.gov.ar] writes:
<< I heard the new 99 version of carpet crawlers in a broadcast called
"the musical box" >>

Speaking of the musical box anyone out there ever saw them live...Daniel

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 02:46:19 EDT
From: SPBrader@aol.com
Subject: Re: gg: re: Dropping some NYC

Pottsy writes:

<< All of you going to New York this coming weekend have a great time
and I'll be there with you in spirit if not in body.

Roll one for me! >>

Roll what?

A snowball?
A Swiss?
A Jelly?
A Bank?
A Stone?

What can he mean?

Si

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 00:00:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Don Tillman
Subject: gg: Re: more digital audio mania than most people can stand

Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 09:57:57 -0400
From: Richard Hilton

Is it possible that too much faith in science and math places one in
a position where that person refuses to believe anything that has
not, up to this point, been empirically proven?

Well, faith in math and science got us the audio we have now. :-)

But part of any science or math theory is a preamble that describes
the exact context in which the theory applies. Incorrect theories are
weeded out pretty quickly, so if the theory doesn't match what you're
seeing or hearing, the most likely culprit is that the theory was
applied in a place it doesn't really belong. This happens in audio a
lot.

At 12:20 AM -0700 10/2/99, Don Tillman wrote:
>I don't think anybody cares though; the analog audio content over
>20kHz is truly negligible as almost every link in the chain kills
>stuff over that frequnecy.

Until you begin to examine 96k source material, it does, yeah. Even
with 48k......it's not all that hard to hear the difference between
44.1k and 48k. How do you explain that? Is it the difference in the
brickwall filters' placement (relative to Nyquist), or is there
something else afoot here?

Sure, interaction with the brickwall filter placement is a fine
explanation.

I'm a firm believer in: "Hey man, the circuit's different, and small
changes can have large side effects. If it works better, it works
better."

>Microphones generally don't put out over 20kHz

You need better mics, Don. You recording cymbals with an SM57? 8^)

Okay, yeah, point taken, but what I'm saying is that the audio chain
contains a lot of steps, and many of them strip off material above
20kHz, and of the ones that don't, many of those perform pretty badly
over 20kHz. The worst offenders I know of are analog tape, vinyl
cutting lathe, vinyl cartridge and tweeters. But in a typical record
playing situation, minimally you'd need to go through *all* of those
in a row and each damages the high end to a great degree.

So what I was trying to say was that a vinyl playback system isn't
really providing a hell of an impressive performance over 20kHz, and
if someone has a complaint about the sound of CD's, directing
attention to the ultrasonic frequencies might not pay off as well as
other issues.

I ask a genuine practical question, asked without prejudice: I
wonder if either Dan or Don has spent much time comparing the results
of recording to 16 bit vs 24 bit at the same sample frequency in a
controlled environment? If so, what did you guys HEAR? Was it just
what you expected to hear, or was it in some way surprising to you?

I haven't had the priviledge. But the circuitry of a 16-bit system
and a 24-bit system will be very different, so are we comparing just
the number of bits or the circuitry?

-- Don

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 08:01:58 +0100
From: "Mark L. Potts"
Subject: RE: gg: re: Dropping some NYC

>
> << All of you going to New York this coming weekend have a great time
> and I'll be there with you in spirit if not in body.
>
> Roll one for me! >>
>
> Roll what?
>
> A snowball?
> A Swiss?
> A Jelly?
> A Bank?
> A Stone?
>
> What can he mean?
>
> Si
>

Si,

Neil Cassady said it best: No left turn unstoned.

A puff of Kief in the morning makes a man as strong as a thousand camels in
the courtyard,

Mark L. Potts
The God of Thunder

np: nothing at home but leaving to take Thorlina to school and it's Black
Crowes in the car (although they do make a mess on the seats!)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 00:24:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Jesús" Tapia
Subject: RE: gg: Ladder's tour

- --- Daniel Potvin wrote:
> Pablo [SMTP:pabloalv@inti.gov.ar] writes:
> <<< I think the best song of the concert was
> "awaken". >>>
>
> I'm sure it was without a doubt but PERPETUAL
> CHANGE must of been
> totally AWESOME too...Dan
>
>
I agree. Way back in the early eighties, I saw the
Band Saga opening for Rod Evans Deep Purple and their
opening track was a really great version PERPETUAL
CHANGE. That was the first time I heard Saga and
thought that they were really a prog band...


=====
Best Regards,
Jesús Tapia




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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:36:50 +0200
From: "Frank B. Carvalho"
Subject: Re: gg: showing is proof

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF0F04.675592C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"

>>Bottom line: anyone who says 24 bit makes a more accurate recording than
16
>>bit at the same sampling rate is a salesman, or is just plain wrong.
>
>Right. And bees cannot fly. Just like black holes didn't exist
>until 50 years ago. Where would the world be without you guys to say
>"it can't be done" and WE guys to go ahead and do it?

I don't think the accuracy is the issue, the issue is more of dynamics. With
24-bit
there is a huge difference between loud and not loud, but both can be
reproduced
with a minimum of noise. In 16-bit loud is fine but the low bits are plagued
by
the resolution. Maybe the music does not go above the use of the first 8-10
bits in
a silent passage and the ear adjusts to the volume level, and can hear
amazing little details at low volumes. So the resolution becomes important
here.
One way to compensate is to use compression to even out volumes to the same
loud
volume all the time. This would utilise the full resolution of the 16 bits,
but this
is definitely not a faithful reproduction of sound. Imagine listening to
classical music. Then you would want to hear the silent bits as really
silent, but still very
clean. So a high resolution for silent bits is just as important as being
able to play loud volume. Therefore 24-bit makes a difference.

Cheers

Frank

- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF0F04.675592C0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




charset=3Diso-8859-1">
5.5.2448.0">





>>Bottom line: anyone who says 24 bit makes a =
more accurate recording than 16

>>bit at the same sampling rate is a salesman, =or is just plain wrong.
>
>Right.  And bees cannot fly.  Just =like black holes didn't exist
>until 50 years ago.  Where would the world =be without you guys to say
>"it can't be done" and WE guys to go =ahead and do it?
I don't think the accuracy is the issue, the issue is =more of dynamics. With 24-bit
there is a huge difference between loud and not =loud, but both can be reproduced
with a minimum of noise. In 16-bit loud is fine but =the low bits are plagued by
the resolution. Maybe the music does not go above =the use of the first 8-10 bits in
a silent passage and the ear adjusts to the volume =level, and can hear amazing little details at low volumes. So the =resolution becomes important here.
One way to compensate is to use compression to even =out volumes to the same loud
volume all the time. This would utilise the full =resolution of the 16 bits, but this
is definitely not a faithful reproduction of sound. =Imagine listening to classical music. Then you would want to hear the =silent bits as really silent, but still very
clean.  So a high resolution for silent bits is =just as important as being able to play loud volume. Therefore 24-bit =makes a difference.
Cheers
Frank
- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF0F04.675592C0--

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 05:44:38 -0400
From: "David and Stacey Shur"
Subject: gg: The Musical Box

From: Daniel Potvin
> Speaking of the musical box anyone out there ever saw them live...Daniel

Some of us did last year on their tour. I saw them in New Jersey and they
were wonderful. They did faithful imitations of Gabriel-era songs, complete
with similar costumes. They are worth seeing, if only to hear great music
no one else is doing live anymore, including the writers of much of
it........ -David Eric

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 05:42:05 -0400
From: "David and Stacey Shur"
Subject: gg: Dropping some NYC

From: Mark L. Potts
> > Roll one for me! >>

Simon responded:
> Roll what?
> A snowball?
> A Swiss?
> A Jelly?
> A Bank?
> A Stone?
> What can he mean?

Probably a drunk. Although I must admit that NYC has really gotten cleaned
up in the midtown area since The Lamb Lies Down.... It's clean, there are
few visible drunks, porno shops are more discreet, and there are no filthy
smelly wino's attempting to clean your automobile windshield for a
buck....... -David Eric

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 11:54:22 +0100
From: "Fred Rosenkamp"
Subject: Re: gg: RE: Re: Carpet crawlers

>Pablo [SMTP:pabloalv@inti.gov.ar] writes:
> << I heard the new 99 version of carpet crawlers in a broadcast called
>"the musical box" >>
>
>Speaking of the musical box anyone out there ever saw them live...Daniel
>
>
>
>

Do you mean the Genesis cover band from (I think) Canada?
I haven't seen them, but next November my band 'Lady Lake' will play at the
ProgFarm Festival here in Holland (along with Gnidrolog BTW). Closing act
will be ReGenesis from the UK. They seem to do a very good Genesis
'impersonation' I am told. Although I've also heard people say; 'Who needs
them?'
I don't know, really. As long as it's played well, it should be good fun I
guess.

Anyway, the best 'Musical Box' I have heard, was when Genesis played it as
encore at the end of their 'Lamb' concerts in Amsterdam & Rotterdam in
'75...


Cheers,
Fred

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 07:02:01 EDT
From: "Virginia Landgraf"
Subject: gg: Fugazi & Minor Threat

JohnEric keeps asking:

<>

I'm not sure if I've heard Fugazi or not. In the years since I stopped
working at the college radio station (and have been in the U.S. -- British
and Thai radio are whole other ball games) I've often listened to college
radio stations but usually not had the time to wait around until the DJ
finally announces the songs. So what I know about Fugazi is from print
media. I seem to recall that they include some former Minor Threat members
(Ian MacKaye among them) and that they have deliberately attempted to keep
the prices of their CD's low. So that's what I know about Fugazi. However,
I *do* want to put in a good word for Minor Threat here -- anyone who thinks
that punk is 3-chord music hasn't heard Minor Threat's theme song -- it's
all triads & open fifths but sliding all over the place, not according to
conventional rules of classical European music theory at all.

Ginny

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 05:05:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: JohnEric
Subject: Re: gg: Fugazi & Minor Threat

Thank you for your review of Minor Threat. Fugazi tends toward
complicated structures ... not all of their tunes, mind you, but most of
them. They are one of the last bands of their kind to thumb their noses
at the corporate music mind-set. that was the way Gentle Giant was, and
so I like Fugazi for the same reasons. Anyone interested should listen to
their recent release and their first. "End Hits" and "13 Songs" and/or
"Repeater+3 Songs".

JohnEric

- --- Virginia Landgraf wrote:
> JohnEric keeps asking:
>
> <>
>
> I'm not sure if I've heard Fugazi or not. In the years since I stopped
> working at the college radio station (and have been in the U.S. --
> British
> and Thai radio are whole other ball games) I've often listened to
> college
> radio stations but usually not had the time to wait around until the DJ
> finally announces the songs. So what I know about Fugazi is from print
> media. I seem to recall that they include some former Minor Threat
> members
> (Ian MacKaye among them) and that they have deliberately attempted to
> keep
> the prices of their CD's low. So that's what I know about Fugazi.
> However,
> I *do* want to put in a good word for Minor Threat here -- anyone who
> thinks
> that punk is 3-chord music hasn't heard Minor Threat's theme song --
> it's
> all triads & open fifths but sliding all over the place, not according
> to
> conventional rules of classical European music theory at all.
>
> Ginny
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>



=====
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 08:30:34 -0400
From: Richard Hilton
Subject: gg: Re: more digital audio mania than most people can stand

At 12:00 AM -0700 10/5/99, Don Tillman wrote:
>But the circuitry of a 16-bit system
>and a 24-bit system will be very different, so are we comparing just
>the number of bits or the circuitry?

Well, actually, I have tested the same pieces of gear using the
different resolutions (Sony, Digidesign and Apogee, for starters), so
unless you define "circuitry" as the stuff that happens within the
chips themselves, then the circuitry is identical.

Thanks for the nice reply, Don.

Best,
Rich


Richard Hilton/Boppybop Toons Inc.
http://members.aol.com/hiltonius/BTI_page.html

------------------------------

End of on-reflection-digest V1 #1898
************************************



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