The tip of the iceberg
Only 1 message in topic
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Oct 20, 7:03 pm show options
Newsgroups: ny.general,la.general,dc.general,tx.general
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 20 Oct 2004 19:03:02 -0700
Local: Wed, Oct 20 2004 7:03 pm
Subject: The tip of the iceberg
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I still can`t believe this mess, but the dark iceberg can`t help but
surface:
*an orange helicopter was flying over the hotel in LA Skid Row,
stationed right above 5th street. The same helicopter `visited` me in
evening job while I was in the parking lot having a break. It
confronted me for a while, quite obviously and then departed. It was
one day before the news about another helicopter that fell without
victims.
*I lost my job after going to the Aca Fest in 2000 to show my new
instrument`s feats; it was then when the toilet started blocking...
*And their rumors are that they were feeding me arsenic in the sugar
in my appartment, that they had me shot (?) and tried to make me sick
and drug me with psilocibin in the water.
Here starts in chronological order:
*my toilet started blocking persistently; an engagement ring
dissapeared; couldn`t invite any girlfriend to the appartment....
*Luis arrived with the contest after I had already dismiss him (had a
good job), but convinced me to compete... while his commentaries would
put me in trouble with the neighbors...
*Luis would make me stay the whole day and part of the night out of my
appartment; leaving me just time to sleep in the mornings, after
spending the rest of the night programming the rest of the night; he
would get nervous if I tried to come back earlier...
*Luis abandoned project, living me with the responsibility; stole
amplifier and other things from workshop, including the mycrodine he
bought
*old news of a shooting in the Rochester; worried glanes from the
acquaintance, but asked no details
*the thieves from Rochester followed me to my mother`s home, they
yelled my name
*the old porter was desperate to engage the mover when I finally
picked up my books and furniture from the abandoned appartment
*long time dwellers left in a hurry the `best` appartment in the
block we were living in in Veracruz; in the process they burned all
electronics from our place, including my precious GR30 guitar now
stolen
*the gang (best children) loitering outside started taking interest in
my mother and I
*a car crashed us from behind, obviously on purpose, and we couldn`t
get them because another car blocked us
*my cat Sombrita dissapeared and never came back; most wonderful cat,
gray, superintelligent and trustful... had special diet
*woke up to find the door open; lived under three locks then
*the gang started following me when I went to buy cigarrettes
*the day they video me going to buy cigarrettes, left the place;
almost two years locked taking care of my computer
*nightmarish travel to San Antonio, one week... last hotel wouldn`t
let me make phone calls
*a known name heard in the back of the bus; almost recognized the
thieves, but didn`t pay attention at the moment
*trouble in the San Antonio place, too subtle to explain (the known
name)
*some awareness in the T-House of trouble ahead
*people shouting private mails in the street (about my old
girlfriend), agitators, loud music with directed content
*definite trouble in Weingart; kicked out two days before first
paycheck; mistreated, treated as a criminal; even forced to sign
suicide note or street right away; a convertible seen sometimes
*rumors and photographs in my job; no mail answers, NO MAIL REPLIES;
people shouting day and night outside the hotel; clearly those guys
outside, a lone guitar line in the hotel cross the street, lots of
rumors, weird anthena in cheap hotel, mexican in next room waking up
with blasphemies, songs with *very* directed content; shouts of
defenestration...
*stopped selling after the system was reprogrammed, forced to resign
after stage of my reporting a body in Mexico after workshop closed,
lots but lots of rumors
*emergency foodstamps denied, even sent to another office 15 days
without food, more songs, song `animales`, previously nice people now
mocking me; turned from Mazzinger to Heil Hitler; weird tv ad with guy
playing guitar and mockingly calling my name; weird Simpsons episode
promising a big dream of restitution, though of course nothing
happened; weird spam mails...
*definite threat of danger from guy next room, more awful rumors, come
to New York
*first night and already receiving shouts and pictures
*hostility in the shelter, my belongings pillaged and stolen
*trying to get an appointment to the Belgian UN mission found myself
in jail, but managed to see one mail i DIDN`T send...
*more rumors, phrases, some mockery, but no clear approach...
*I am still in the street and the hostility is obvious...
*No recognition to my work, waiting to be *clean* to try again and
speak with people...
Reply
I am Danilo J Bonsignore, not Luis Bistrain Gonzalez
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Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Oct 2, 3:21 pm show options
Newsgroups: ny.general,dc.general,la.general,seattle.general,soc.culture.mexican.american
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 2 Oct 2004 15:21:22 -0700
Local: Sat, Oct 2 2004 3:21 pm
Subject: I am Danilo J Bonsignore, not Luis Bistrain Gonzalez
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Mexico wants to leave me without NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, NOT EVEN
MY OWN NAME TO PROTECT THEIR THIEVES AND ASSASSINS. And they involved
Bush with lies, even to the point of taking his place.
I was Fabrizio Jose Danilo Bonsignore Guardia
Now I am Danilo J. Bonsignore
visit ghamac.org
ghamac.org/miniface.jpg
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Oct 31, 8:55 pm show options
Newsgroups: ny.general,dc.general,la.general,seattle.general,sci.econ
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 31 Oct 2004 20:55:39 -0800
Local: Sun, Oct 31 2004 8:55 pm
Subject: Re: I am Danilo J Bonsignore, not Luis Bistrain Gonzalez
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I wander the streets of New York, my clothes stolen, 30c total, going
from one internet to another to the library to the shelter and not
enjoying this AT ALL. But people with power in the US prefer to
protect a big bunch of mexican no-goods and opportunists and downright
criminals... than help me. And they want to send me to jail? And
change my identity so someone else picks up the rewards of my efforts?
And this is America the fair? Then they go and complain about bin
Laden... when what I have been insinuated is that these people they
are protecting are WORSE than bin Laden, they have no political
interest to half justify them, but only SELF INTEREST to justify sheer
crime. Why not Mexico and he US decriminalize murder and just kill me?
I want to choose what I eat. I want t be able to buy food. To hell
with Mexico and his `lost`. That is pure hate, sanctioned by America.
`He is being sacrificed` and that justifies it all.
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I was Fabrizio Jose Danilo Bonsignore Guardia
Now I am Danilo J. Bonsignore
visit ghamac.org
ghamac.org/miniface.jpg
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Nov 1, 10:03 am show options
Newsgroups: ny.general,dc.general,la.general,seattle.general,sci.econ
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 1 Nov 2004 10:03:29 -0800
Local: Mon, Nov 1 2004 10:03 am
Subject: Re: I am Danilo J Bonsignore, not Luis Bistrain Gonzalez
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Didn`t opted to live in the streets. No clothes, 30c total. The White
House invited a bunch of criminals and prefers to make pay the victim
than accept an error, a security error. You can bribe all your mexican
psychos, I am NOT LUIS BISTRAIN. I have signed NOTHING, they have
their clones, posing in my place. THEY ARE ACCUSING ME OF THEIR
CRIMES. THEIR CRIMES. THEIR CRIMES. THEIR CRIMES. And you just making
me look psychotic. I NEED DAMN MONEY TO EAT, EAT, EAT, EAT, EAT. Can`t
you understand that you are protecting just a bunch of common thieves
and murderers and corrupters? Can`t you understand that? WHERE ARE MY
MAILS, MY REPLIES, THE ANSWER TO MY EFFORTS TO SEND *_MY_* MUSIC? Who
is playing these games? I have no need to plagiarize NOTHING. I think.
I have studies. Have you been studying for over 30 years? No? Then how
do you expect to understand or judge me or pretend to know you can
whatever with me but have a casual chat? And forget your trick of
giving UTMOST IMPORTANCE to the slightest detail, it is too much
already to publish an autobiography... I WANT MY MAILS BACK. I WANT
MY MUSIC PREMIERED. I WANT TO FORGET MEXICO EXISTS AS I DID WHEN I
ARRIVED IN THE US ON 2003.
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I wander the streets of New York, my clothes stolen, 30c total, going
from one internet to another to the library to the shelter and not
enjoying this AT ALL. But people with power in the US prefer to
protect a big bunch of mexican no-goods and opportunists and downright
criminals... than help me. And they want to send me to jail? And
change my identity so someone else picks up the rewards of my efforts?
And this is America the fair? Then they go and complain about bin
Laden... when what I have been insinuated is that these people they
are protecting are WORSE than bin Laden, they have no political
interest to half justify them, but only SELF INTEREST to justify sheer
crime. Why not Mexico and he US decriminalize murder and just kill me?
I want to choose what I eat. I want t be able to buy food. To hell
with Mexico and his `lost`. That is pure hate, sanctioned by America.
`He is being sacrificed` and that justifies it all.
I was Fabrizio Jose Danilo Bonsignore Guardia
Now I am Danilo J
. Bonsignore
visit ghamac.org
ghamac.org/miniface.jpg
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Nov 1, 7:51 pm show options
Newsgroups: ny.general,dc.general,la.general,seattle.general,sci.econ
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 1 Nov 2004 19:51:39 -0800
Local: Mon, Nov 1 2004 7:51 pm
Subject: Re: I am Danilo J Bonsignore, not Luis Bistrain Gonzalez
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I wander the streets of New York, my clothes stolen, 30c total, going
from one internet to another to the library to the shelter and not
enjoying this AT ALL. But people with power in the US prefer to
protect a big bunch of mexican no-goods and opportunists and downright
criminals... than help me. And they want to send me to jail? And
change my identity so someone else picks up the rewards of my efforts?
And this is America the fair? Then they go and complain about bin
Laden... when what I have been insinuated is that these people they
are protecting are WORSE than bin Laden, they have no political
interest to half justify them, but only SELF INTEREST to justify sheer
crime. Why not Mexico and he US decriminalize murder and just kill me?
I want to choose what I eat. I want t be able to buy food. To hell
with Mexico and his `lost`. That is pure hate, sanctioned by America
.
So their argument is that they arrived first? Of course, they were the
thieves, and the author was unaware of the theft.
Today I was taken a picture in the shelter...
`
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
He is being sacrificed` and that justifies it all.
I was Fabrizio Jose Danilo Bonsignore Guardia
Now I am Danilo J
. Bonsignore
visit ghamac.org
ghamac.org/miniface.jpg
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Nov 23, 4:31 am show options
Newsgroups: ny.general,dc.general,la.general,seattle.general,sci.econ
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 23 Nov 2004 04:31:14 -0800
Local: Tues, Nov 23 2004 4:31 am
Subject: Re: I am Danilo J Bonsignore, not Luis Bistrain Gonzalez
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I look felide, not canide or porcine. And have no surgery stitches and
my face looks normal/
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I wander the streets of New York, my clothes stolen, 30c total, going
from one internet to another to the library to the shelter and not
enjoying this AT ALL. But people with power in the US prefer to
protect a big bunch of mexican no-goods and opportunists and downright
criminals... than help me. And they want to send me to jail? And
change my identity so someone else picks up the rewards of my efforts?
And this is America the fair? Then they go and complain about bin
Laden... when what I have been insinuated is that these people they
are protecting are WORSE than bin Laden, they have no political
interest to half justify them, but only SELF INTEREST to justify sheer
crime. Why not Mexico and he US decriminalize murder and just kill me?
I want to choose what I eat. I want t be able to buy food. To hell
with Mexico and his `lost`. That is pure hate, sanctioned by America
.
So their argument is that they arrived first? Of course, they were the
thieves, and the author was unaware of the theft.
Today I was taken a picture in the shelter...
`He is being sacrificed` and that justifies it all.
I was Fabrizio
Jose Danilo Bonsignore Guardia
Now I am Danilo J
. Bonsignore
visit ghamac.org
ghamac.org/miniface.jpg
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Nov 29, 5:11 pm show options
Newsgroups: ny.general,dc.general,la.general,seattle.general,sci.econ
From: djbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 29 Nov 2004 17:11:42 -0800
Local: Mon, Nov 29 2004 5:11 pm
Subject: Re: I am Danilo J Bonsignore, not Luis Bistrain Gonzalez
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Washington wants to avoid a fracas. And there is a mexican aide de
camp betraying America. The President doesn`t know.
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I look felide, not canide or porcine. And have no surgery stitches and
my face looks normal/
I wander the streets of New York, my clothes stolen, 30c total
, going
from one internet to another to the library to the shelter and not
enjoying this AT ALL. But people with power in the US prefer to
protect a big bunch of mexican no-goods and opportunists and downright
criminals... than help me. And they want to send me to jail? And
change my identity so someone else picks up the rewards of my efforts?
And this is America the fair? Then they go and complain about bin
Laden... when what I have been insinuated is that these people they
are protecting are WORSE than bin Laden, they have no political
interest to half justify them, but only SELF INTEREST to justify sheer
crime. Why not Mexico and he US decriminalize murder and just kill me?
I want to choose what I eat. I want t be able to buy food. To hell
with Mexico and his `lost`. That is pure hate, sanctioned by America
.
So their argument is that they arrived first? Of course, they were the
thieves, and the author was unaware of the theft.
Today I was taken a picture in the shelter...
`He is being sacrificed` and that justifies it all.
I was Fabrizio
Jose Danilo Bonsignore Guardia
Now I am Danilo J
. Bonsignore
visit ghamac.org
ghamac.org/miniface.jpg
Reply
Gene Nov 29, 5:59 pm show options
Newsgroups: ny.general,dc.general,la.general,seattle.general,sci.econ
From: Gene - Find messages by this author
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 01:59:14 GMT
Local: Mon, Nov 29 2004 5:59 pm
Subject: Re: I am Danilo J Bonsignore, not Luis Bistrain Gonzalez
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On 29 Nov 2004 17:11:42 -0800, djbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J.
Bonsignore) wrote:
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
>Washington wants to avoid a fracas. And there is a mexican aide de
>camp betraying America. The President doesn`t know.
>I look felide, not canide or porcine. And have no surgery stitches and
>my face looks normal/
>I wander the streets of New York, my clothes stolen, 30c total, going
>from one internet to another to the library to the shelter and not
>enjoying this AT ALL. But people with power in the US prefer to
>protect a big bunch of mexican no-goods and opportunists and downright
>criminals... than help me. And they want to send me to jail? And
>change my identity so someone else picks up the rewards of my efforts?
>And this is America the fair? Then they go and complain about bin
>Laden... when what I have been insinuated is that these people they
>are protecting are WORSE than bin Laden, they have no political
>interest to half justify them, but only SELF INTEREST to justify sheer
>crime. Why not Mexico and he US decriminalize murder and just kill me?
>I want to choose what I eat. I want t be able to buy food. To hell
>with Mexico and his `lost`. That is pure hate, sanctioned by America.
>So their argument is that they arrived first? Of course, they were the
>thieves, and the author was unaware of the theft.
>Today I was taken a picture in the shelter...
>`He is being sacrificed` and that justifies it all.
>I was Fabrizio Jose Danilo Bonsignore Guardia
>Now I am Danilo J. Bonsignore
>visit ghamac.org
>ghamac.org/miniface.jpg
Next month, he'll be Suzy Swalloato
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Nov 30, 6:04 am show options
Newsgroups: ny.general,dc.general,la.general,seattle.general,sci.econ
From: djbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 30 Nov 2004 06:04:14 -0800
Local: Tues, Nov 30 2004 6:04 am
Subject: Re: I am Danilo J Bonsignore, not Luis Bistrain Gonzalez
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- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Washington wants to avoid a fracas. And there is a mexican aide de
camp betraying America. The President doesn`t know.
I look felide, not canide or porcine. And have no surgery stitches
and
my face looks normal/
I wander the streets of New York, my clothes stolen, 30c total
, going
from one internet to another to the library to the shelter and not
enjoying this AT ALL. But people with power in the US prefer to
protect a big bunch of mexican no-goods and opportunists and downright
criminals... than help me. And they want to send me to jail? And
change my identity so someone else picks up the rewards of my efforts?
And this is America the fair? Then they go and complain about bin
Laden... when what I have been insinuated is that these people they
are protecting are WORSE than bin Laden, they have no political
interest to half justify them, but only SELF INTEREST to justify sheer
crime. Why not Mexico and he US decriminalize murder and just kill me?
I want to choose what I eat. I want t be able to buy food. To hell
with Mexico and his `lost`. That is pure hate, sanctioned by America
.
So their argument is that they arrived first? Of course, they were the
thieves, and the author was unaware of the theft.
Today I was taken a picture in the shelter...
`He is being sacrificed` and that justifies it all.
I was Fabrizio
Jose Danilo Bonsignore Guardia
Now I am Danilo J
. Bonsignore
visit ghamac.org
ghamac.org/miniface.jpg
Reply
Gene Nov 30, 6:10 pm show options
Newsgroups: ny.general,dc.general,la.general,seattle.general,sci.econ
From: Gene - Find messages by this author
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 02:10:32 GMT
Local: Tues, Nov 30 2004 6:10 pm
Subject: Re: I am Danilo J Bonsignore, not Luis Bistrain Gonzalez
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On 30 Nov 2004 06:04:14 -
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
0800, djbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J.
Bonsignore) wrote:
>Washington wants to avoid a fracas. And there is a mexican aide de
>camp betraying America. The President doesn`t know.
>I look felide, not canide or porcine. And have no surgery stitches and
>my face looks normal/
>I wander the streets of New York, my clothes stolen, 30c total, going
>from one internet to another to the library to the shelter and not
>enjoying this AT ALL. But people with power in the US prefer to
>protect a big bunch of mexican no-goods and opportunists and downright
>criminals... than help me. And they want to send me to jail? And
>change my identity so someone else picks up the rewards of my efforts?
>And this is America the fair? Then they go and complain about bin
>Laden... when what I have been insinuated is that these people they
>are protecting are WORSE than bin Laden, they have no political
>interest to half justify them, but only SELF INTEREST to justify sheer
>crime. Why not Mexico and he US decriminalize murder and just kill me?
>I want to choose what I eat. I want t be able to buy food. To hell
>with Mexico and his `lost`. That is pure hate, sanctioned by America.
>So their argument is that they arrived first? Of course, they were the
>thieves, and the author was unaware of the theft.
>Today I was taken a picture in the shelter...
>`He is being sacrificed` and that justifies it all.
>I was Fabrizio Jose Danilo Bonsignore Guardia
>Now I am Danilo J. Bonsignore
>visit ghamac.org
>ghamac.org/miniface.jpg
Next month, he'll be Suzy Swalloato
Reply
Help me expose a mafia and save my life
Messages 1 - 25 of 27 in topic - view as tree Newer »
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Oct 31, 6:40 am show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.physics,utexas.general,hawaii.politics,soc.culture.spain
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 31 Oct 2004 06:40:26 -0800
Local: Sun, Oct 31 2004 6:40 am
Subject: Help me expose a mafia and save my life
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These people seem to try to switch my identity with that of Luis
Bistrain (Gonzalez). They have money and several tricks, many tricks.
This is serious, my life depends on it.
They have been moving interests, making a big mess with names and
events. Just think what you can do when you have A LOT of money, like
the kind when you get a percentage from every soprts ticket sold in
the country. Something like that.
It seems they organized a shooting to pretend that I was killed. Then
I was impersonated by this LBG, using my name and false papers. I was
oblivious, trying to make my way into the US.
They have been using my work and ideas to make money behind my back.
When I appear it is already late. They seem to have bribed people from
the Army, the CIA and the FBI. One of Bistrain`s cousins is a mexican
policeman. You don`t need to bribe many people, just a few who will
act covertly; and they are already incriminated. I don`t know if they
were to the President of the US and/or the President of Mexico but it
is very likely. I believe the uncle of Luis Bistrain, RAUL GONZALEZ
APAOLAZA, HEAD OF THE METRO SYNDICATE HAS DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY.
It also seems they blackmailed FULL COUNTRIES threatening to make
people stop paying rents by adevrtising (wrongly and incomplete) my
Home for All theoric approach, and they managed to get a lot of money
this way by going to the United Nations. The ambassadors are
ambassadors, but like any people they and their families are open to
blackmail and threats and bribes and incriminatio by a mafia like the
mexican mafia of the Bistrains.
It seems my mails arrive with changed names, switching Bistrain and
Bonsignore. And all my replies have been stolen, so thaI make th
effort and they send their croonies and accomplices to take the
opportunities.
It may very well be that they deceived the Presidents of both
countries who are now not only deceived (lose face), but also may be
incriminated.
I believe somebody stole my music, the Rondo and Isabels Death, a
mexica, who is being protected by the Mexican country, even by Fox who
really believes it was composed by the thief and wants to protect the
National Pride, even protecting thieves.
They have been telling other parties that I want... whatever goes
against their interests to make me enemies. And they have been
distributing my work and ideas, which are... judge by yourselves in
this postings and the ghamac site.
I NEED HELP. I NEED SOMEBODY TO SEND MY SERACHES IN THE GROUPS TO
SENATORS AROUND THE WORLD, TO THE FEDERAL POLICE, TO THE UNITED
NATIONS AND OTHER PLACES. My accounts are easily monitored, I only
have access to the same few IPs. I need my posts and name to arrive
from other IPs so that people who might think I am Luis Bistrain learn
that I am Danilo J Bonsignore, publishing under the name of Fabrizio
and am in a homeless shelter and not somewhere else.
This is serious, my life depends on it.
Thnak you.
Reply
Uncle Al Oct 31, 7:42 am show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.physics,utexas.general,hawaii.politics,soc.culture.spain
From: Uncle Al - Find messages by this author
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 07:42:43 -0800
Local: Sun, Oct 31 2004 7:42 am
Subject: Re: Help me expose a mafia and save my life
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"Fabrizio J. Bonsignore" wrote:
> These people seem to try to switch my identity with that of Luis
> Bistrain (Gonzalez). They have money and several tricks, many tricks.
> This is serious, my life depends on it.
[snip psychotic crap]
Die.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
Reply
Billy Joe Redneck Oct 31, 9:13 am show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.physics,utexas.general,hawaii.politics,soc.culture.spain
From: "Billy Joe Redneck" - Find messages by this author
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 17:13:10 GMT
Local: Sun, Oct 31 2004 9:13 am
Subject: Re: Help me expose a mafia and save my life
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"Uncle Al" wrote in message
news:418507F3.9193B3CE@hate.spam.net...
>> "Fabrizio J. Bonsignore" wrote:
>> > These people seem to try to switch my identity with that of Luis
>> > Bistrain (Gonzalez). They have money and several tricks, many tricks.
>> > This is serious, my life depends on it.
>> [snip psychotic crap]
>> Die.
>Screaming.
With many comical objects in your bottom.
Reply
Sam Wormley Oct 31, 9:16 am show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.physics,utexas.general,hawaii.politics,soc.culture.spain
From: Sam Wormley - Find messages by this author
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 17:16:29 GMT
Local: Sun, Oct 31 2004 9:16 am
Subject: Re: Help me expose a mafia and save my life
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Fabrizio J. Bonsignore wrote:
> These people seem to try to switch my identity with that of Luis
> Bistrain (Gonzalez). They have money and several tricks, many tricks.
> This is serious, my life depends on it.
+------------+ +---------------------------------------------+
| PLEASE | | BEST TO IGNORE ATTENTION SEEKING TROLLS |
| DO NOT | | LIKE BONSIGNORE -- THEY DRY |
| FEED | | UP AND BLOW AWAY WITHOUT FEEDBACK |
| DA | | |
| TROLLS | | http://www.angelfire.com/space/usenet/ |
+------------+ +---------------------------------------------+
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Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Oct 31, 1:56 pm show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.physics,utexas.general,hawaii.politics,soc.culture.spain
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 31 Oct 2004 13:56:31 -0800
Local: Sun, Oct 31 2004 1:56 pm
Subject: Re: Help me expose a mafia and save my life
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
These people seem to try to switch my identity with that of Luis
Bistrain (Gonzalez). They have money and several tricks, many tricks.
This is serious, my life depends on it.
They have been moving interests, making a big mess with names and
events. Just think what you can do when you have A LOT of money, like
the kind when you get a percentage from every soprts ticket sold in
the country. Something like that.
It seems they organized a shooting to pretend that I was killed. Then
I was impersonated by this LBG, using my name and false papers. I was
oblivious, trying to make my way into the US.
They have been using my work and ideas to make money behind my back.
When I appear it is already late. They seem to have bribed people from
the Army, the CIA and the FBI. One of Bistrain`s cousins is a mexican
policeman. You don`t need to bribe many people, just a few who will
act covertly; and they are already incriminated. I don`t know if they
were to the President of the US and/or the President of Mexico but it
is very likely. I believe the uncle of Luis Bistrain, RAUL GONZALEZ
APAOLAZA, HEAD OF THE METRO SYNDICATE HAS DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY.
It also seems they blackmailed FULL COUNTRIES threatening to make
people stop paying rents by adevrtising (wrongly and incomplete) my
Home for All theoric approach, and they managed to get a lot of money
this way by going to the United Nations. The ambassadors are
ambassadors, but like any people they and their families are open to
blackmail and threats and bribes and incriminatio by a mafia like the
mexican mafia of the Bistrains
.
IT
seems my mails arrive with changed names, switching Bistrain and
Bonsignore. And all my replies have been stolen, so thaI make
the
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
effort and they send their croonies and accomplices to take the
opportunities.
It may very well be that they deceived the Presidents of both
countries who are now not only deceived (lose face), but also may be
incriminated.
I believe somebody stole my music, the Rondo and Isabels Death, a
mexica, who is being protected by the Mexican country, even by Fox who
really believes it was composed by the thief and wants to protect the
National Pride, even protecting thieves.
They have been telling other parties that I want... whatever goes
against their interests to make me enemies. And they have been
distributing my work and ideas, which are... judge by yourselves in
this postings and the ghamac site.
I NEED HELP. I NEED SOMEBODY TO SEND MY SERACHES IN THE GROUPS TO
SENATORS AROUND THE WORLD, TO THE FEDERAL POLICE, TO THE UNITED
NATIONS AND OTHER PLACES. My accounts are easily monitored, I only
have access to the same few IPs. I need my posts and name to arrive
from other IPs so that people who might think I am Luis Bistrain learn
that I am Danilo J Bonsignore, publishing under the name of Fabrizio
and am in a homeless shelter and not somewhere else.
This is serious, my life depends on it
.
Thank you.
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Oct 31, 7:03 pm show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.physics,utexas.general,hawaii.politics,soc.culture.spain
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 31 Oct 2004 19:03:41 -0800
Local: Sun, Oct 31 2004 7:03 pm
Subject: Re: Help me expose a mafia and save my life
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse
Sam Wormley wrote in message ...
[snip]
You know? My first reaction was to insult you saying that you are an
imbecile moron with a microview of waht this world is about and
without the ability to distinguish a troll from a REAL post and who
didn`t had the curiosity to READ and UNDERSTAND the *reasons* or
motives why this is happening to me, though after admiring your
disgusting display of ascii art and thinking on the time it took you
to try (and fail) matching each line, I decided not to do it and
instead follow my usual answer to flamers that only pollute my threads
to make thier stupid comments, which is, repost again.
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Oct 31, 7:05 pm show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.physics,utexas.general,hawaii.politics,soc.culture.spain
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 31 Oct 2004 19:05:42 -0800
Local: Sun, Oct 31 2004 7:05 pm
Subject: Re: Help me expose a mafia and save my life
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
These people seem to try to switch my identity with that of Luis
Bistrain (Gonzalez). They have money and several tricks, many tricks.
This is serious, my life depends on it.
They have been moving interests, making a big mess with names and
events. Just think what you can do when you have A LOT of money, like
the kind when you get a percentage from every soprts ticket sold in
the country. Something like that.
It seems they organized a shooting to pretend that I was killed. Then
I was impersonated by this LBG, using my name and false papers. I was
oblivious, trying to make my way into the US.
They have been using my work and ideas to make money behind my back.
When I appear it is already late. They seem to have bribed people from
the Army, the CIA and the FBI. One of Bistrain`s cousins is a mexican
policeman. You don`t need to bribe many people, just a few who will
act covertly; and they are already incriminated. I don`t know if they
were to the President of the US and/or the President of Mexico but it
is very likely. I believe the uncle of Luis Bistrain, RAUL GONZALEZ
APAOLAZA, HEAD OF THE METRO SYNDICATE HAS DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY.
It also seems they blackmailed FULL COUNTRIES threatening to make
people stop paying rents by adevrtising (wrongly and incomplete) my
Home for All theoric approach, and they managed to get a lot of money
this way by going to the United Nations. The ambassadors are
ambassadors, but like any people they and their families are open to
blackmail and threats and bribes and incriminatio by a mafia like the
mexican mafia of the Bistrains.
It seems my mails arrive with changed names, switching Bistrain and
Bonsignore. And all my replies have been stolen, so thaI make th
effort and they send their croonies and accomplices to take the
opportunities.
It may very well be that they deceived the Presidents of both
countries who are now not only deceived (lose face), but also may be
incriminated.
I believe somebody stole my music, the Rondo and Isabels Death, a
mexica, who is being protected by the Mexican country, even by Fox who
really believes it was composed by the thief and wants to protect the
National Pride, even protecting thieves.
They have been telling other parties that I want... whatever goes
against their interests to make me enemies. And they have been
distributing my work and ideas, which are... judge by yourselves in
this postings and the ghamac site.
I NEED HELP. I NEED SOMEBODY TO SEND MY SERACHES IN THE GROUPS TO
SENATORS AROUND THE WORLD, TO THE FEDERAL POLICE, TO THE UNITED
NATIONS AND OTHER PLACES. My accounts are easily monitored, I only
have access to the same few IPs. I need my posts and name to arrive
from other IPs so that people who might think I am Luis Bistrain learn
that I am Danilo J Bonsignore, publishing under the name of Fabrizio
and am in a homeless shelter and not somewhere else.
This is serious, my life depends on it
.
Thank you
.
Reply
Sam Wormley Oct 31, 7:14 pm show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.physics,utexas.general,hawaii.politics,soc.culture.spain
From: Sam Wormley - Find messages by this author
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 03:14:27 GMT
Local: Sun, Oct 31 2004 7:14 pm
Subject: Re: Help me expose a mafia and save my life
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore wrote:
> These people seem to try to switch my identity with that of Luis
> Bistrain (Gonzalez). They have money and several tricks, many tricks.
> This is serious, my life depends on it.
I guess you showed me!
Reply
Morituri-Max Oct 31, 8:54 pm show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.physics,utexas.general,hawaii.politics,soc.culture.spain
From: "Morituri-Max" - Find messages by this author
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 04:54:01 GMT
Local: Sun, Oct 31 2004 8:54 pm
Subject: Re: Help me expose a mafia and save my life
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse
Sam Wormley wrote:
> Fabrizio J. Bonsignore wrote:
>> These people seem to try to switch my identity with that of Luis
>> Bistrain (Gonzalez). They have money and several tricks, many tricks.
>> This is serious, my life depends on it.
> I guess you showed me!
C'mon sam stop feeding the troll.
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Nov 1, 3:08 am show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.physics,utexas.general,hawaii.politics,soc.culture.spain
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 1 Nov 2004 03:08:22 -0800
Local: Mon, Nov 1 2004 3:08 am
Subject: Re: Help me expose a mafia and save my life
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
These people seem to try to switch my identity with that of Luis
Bistrain (Gonzalez). They have money and several tricks, many tricks.
This is serious, my life depends on it.
They have been moving interests, making a big mess with names and
events. Just think what you can do when you have A LOT of money, like
the kind when you get a percentage from every soprts ticket sold in
the country. Something like that.
It seems they organized a shooting to pretend that I was killed. Then
I was impersonated by this LBG, using my name and false papers. I was
oblivious, trying to make my way into the US.
They have been using my work and ideas to make money behind my back.
When I appear it is already late. They seem to have bribed people from
the Army, the CIA and the FBI. One of Bistrain`s cousins is a mexican
policeman. You don`t need to bribe many people, just a few who will
act covertly; and they are already incriminated. I don`t know if they
were to the President of the US and/or the President of Mexico but it
is very likely. I believe the uncle of Luis Bistrain, RAUL GONZALEZ
APAOLAZA, HEAD OF THE METRO SYNDICATE HAS DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY.
It also seems they blackmailed FULL COUNTRIES threatening to make
people stop paying rents by adevrtising (wrongly and incomplete) my
Home for All theoric approach, and they managed to get a lot of money
this way by going to the United Nations. The ambassadors are
ambassadors, but like any people they and their families are open to
blackmail and threats and bribes and incriminatio by a mafia like the
mexican mafia of the Bistrains.
It seems my mails arrive with changed names, switching Bistrain and
Bonsignore. And all my replies have been stolen, so thaI make th
effort and they send their croonies and accomplices to take the
opportunities.
It may very well be that they deceived the Presidents of both
countries who are now not only deceived (lose face), but also may be
incriminated.
I believe somebody stole my music, the Rondo and Isabels Death, a
mexica, who is being protected by the Mexican country, even by Fox who
really believes it was composed by the thief and wants to protect the
National Pride, even protecting thieves.
They have been telling other parties that I want... whatever goes
against their interests to make me enemies. And they have been
distributing my work and ideas, which are... judge by yourselves in
this postings and the ghamac site.
I NEED HELP. I NEED SOMEBODY TO SEND MY SERACHES IN THE GROUPS TO
SENATORS AROUND THE WORLD, TO THE FEDERAL POLICE, TO THE UNITED
NATIONS AND OTHER PLACES. My accounts are easily monitored, I only
have access to the same few IPs. I need my posts and name to arrive
from other IPs so that people who might think I am Luis Bistrain learn
that I am Danilo J Bonsignore, publishing under the name of Fabrizio
and am in a homeless shelter and not somewhere else.
This is serious, my life depends on it
.
Thank you
.
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Nov 1, 9:39 am show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.physics,utexas.general,hawaii.politics,soc.culture.spain
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 1 Nov 2004 09:39:35 -0800
Local: Mon, Nov 1 2004 9:39 am
Subject: Re: Help me expose a mafia and save my life
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
These people seem to try to switch my identity with that of Luis
Bistrain (Gonzalez). They have money and several tricks, many tricks.
This is serious, my life depends on it.
They have been moving interests, making a big mess with names and
events. Just think what you can do when you have A LOT of money, like
the kind when you get a percentage from every soprts ticket sold in
the country. Something like that.
It seems they organized a shooting to pretend that I was killed. Then
I was impersonated by this LBG, using my name and false papers. I was
oblivious, trying to make my way into the US.
They have been using my work and ideas to make money behind my back.
When I appear it is already late. They seem to have bribed people from
the Army, the CIA and the FBI. One of Bistrain`s cousins is a mexican
policeman. You don`t need to bribe many people, just a few who will
act covertly; and they are already incriminated. I don`t know if they
were to the President of the US and/or the President of Mexico but it
is very likely. I believe the uncle of Luis Bistrain, RAUL GONZALEZ
APAOLAZA, HEAD OF THE METRO SYNDICATE HAS DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY.
It also seems they blackmailed FULL COUNTRIES threatening to make
people stop paying rents by adevrtising (wrongly and incomplete) my
Home for All theoric approach, and they managed to get a lot of money
this way by going to the United Nations. The ambassadors are
ambassadors, but like any people they and their families are open to
blackmail and threats and bribes and incriminatio by a mafia like the
mexican mafia of the Bistrains.
It seems my mails arrive with changed names, switching Bistrain and
Bonsignore. And all my replies have been stolen, so thaI make th
effort and they send their croonies and accomplices to take the
opportunities.
It may very well be that they deceived the Presidents of both
countries who are now not only deceived (lose face), but also may be
incriminated.
I believe somebody stole my music, the Rondo and Isabels Death, a
mexica, who is being protected by the Mexican country, even by Fox who
really believes it was composed by the thief and wants to protect the
National Pride, even protecting thieves.
They have been telling other parties that I want... whatever goes
against their interests to make me enemies. And they have been
distributing my work and ideas, which are... judge by yourselves in
this postings and the ghamac site.
I NEED HELP. I NEED SOMEBODY TO SEND MY SERACHES IN THE GROUPS TO
SENATORS AROUND THE WORLD, TO THE FEDERAL POLICE, TO THE UNITED
NATIONS AND OTHER PLACES. My accounts are easily monitored, I only
have access to the same few IPs. I need my posts and name to arrive
from other IPs so that people who might think I am Luis Bistrain learn
that I am Danilo J Bonsignore, publishing under the name of Fabrizio
and am in a homeless shelter and not somewhere else.
This is serious, my life depends on it
.
Thank you
.
Reply
Buck Futter Nov 1, 12:39 pm show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.physics,utexas.general,hawaii.politics,soc.culture.spain
From: "Buck Futter" - Find messages by this author
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 20:39:58 GMT
Local: Mon, Nov 1 2004 12:39 pm
Subject: Re: Help me expose a mafia and save my life
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse
You are an imbecile and a moron. Learn how to spell
common English words and do not post here again.
"Fabrizio J. Bonsignore" wrote in message
news:768f7623.0410311903.688bd358@posting.google.com...
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> Sam Wormley wrote in message
...
> [snip]
> You know? My first reaction was to insult you saying that you are an
> imbecile moron with a microview of waht this world is about and
> without the ability to distinguish a troll from a REAL post and who
> didn`t had the curiosity to READ and UNDERSTAND the *reasons* or
> motives why this is happening to me, though after admiring your
> disgusting display of ascii art and thinking on the time it took you
> to try (and fail) matching each line, I decided not to do it and
> instead follow my usual answer to flamers that only pollute my threads
> to make thier stupid comments, which is, repost again.
Reply
Buck Futter Nov 1, 12:40 pm show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.physics,utexas.general,hawaii.politics,soc.culture.spain
From: "Buck Futter" - Find messages by this author
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 20:40:40 GMT
Local: Mon, Nov 1 2004 12:40 pm
Subject: Re: Help me expose a mafia and save my life
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse
You are an imbecile and a moron. Learn how to spell
common English words and do not post here again.
"Fabrizio J. Bonsignore" wrote in message
news:768f7623
.0410311905.5c007be@posting.google.com...
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> These people seem to try to switch my identity with that of Luis
> Bistrain (Gonzalez). They have money and several tricks, many tricks.
> This is serious, my life depends on it.
> They have been moving interests, making a big mess with names and
> events. Just think what you can do when you have A LOT of money, like
> the kind when you get a percentage from every soprts ticket sold in
> the country. Something like that.
> It seems they organized a shooting to pretend that I was killed. Then
> I was impersonated by this LBG, using my name and false papers. I was
> oblivious, trying to make my way into the US.
> They have been using my work and ideas to make money behind my back.
> When I appear it is already late. They seem to have bribed people from
> the Army, the CIA and the FBI. One of Bistrain`s cousins is a mexican
> policeman. You don`t need to bribe many people, just a few who will
> act covertly; and they are already incriminated. I don`t know if they
> were to the President of the US and/or the President of Mexico but it
> is very likely. I believe the uncle of Luis Bistrain, RAUL GONZALEZ
> APAOLAZA, HEAD OF THE METRO SYNDICATE HAS DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY.
> It also seems they blackmailed FULL COUNTRIES threatening to make
> people stop paying rents by adevrtising (wrongly and incomplete) my
> Home for All theoric approach, and they managed to get a lot of money
> this way by going to the United Nations. The ambassadors are
> ambassadors, but like any people they and their families are open to
> blackmail and threats and bribes and incriminatio by a mafia like the
> mexican mafia of the Bistrains.
> It seems my mails arrive with changed names, switching Bistrain and
> Bonsignore. And all my replies have been stolen, so thaI make th
> effort and they send their croonies and accomplices to take the
> opportunities.
> It may very well be that they deceived the Presidents of both
> countries who are now not only deceived (lose face), but also may be
> incriminated.
> I believe somebody stole my music, the Rondo and Isabels Death, a
> mexica, who is being protected by the Mexican country, even by Fox who
> really believes it was composed by the thief and wants to protect the
> National Pride, even protecting thieves.
> They have been telling other parties that I want... whatever goes
> against their interests to make me enemies. And they have been
> distributing my work and ideas, which are... judge by yourselves in
> this postings and the ghamac site.
> I NEED HELP. I NEED SOMEBODY TO SEND MY SERACHES IN THE GROUPS TO
> SENATORS AROUND THE WORLD, TO THE FEDERAL POLICE, TO THE UNITED
> NATIONS AND OTHER PLACES. My accounts are easily monitored, I only
> have access to the same few IPs. I need my posts and name to arrive
> from other IPs so that people who might think I am Luis Bistrain learn
> that I am Danilo J Bonsignore, publishing under the name of Fabrizio
> and am in a homeless shelter and not somewhere else.
> This is serious, my life depends on it.
> Thank you.
Reply
Buck Futter Nov 1, 12:40 pm show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.physics,utexas.general,hawaii.politics,soc.culture.spain
From: "Buck Futter" - Find messages by this author
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 20:40:56 GMT
Local: Mon, Nov 1 2004 12:40 pm
Subject: Re: Help me expose a mafia and save my life
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse
You are an imbecile and a moron. Learn how to spell
common English words and do not post here again.
"Fabrizio J. Bonsignore" wrote in message
news:768f7623
.0411010939.23878464@
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
posting.google.com...
> These people seem to try to switch my identity with that of Luis
> Bistrain (Gonzalez). They have money and several tricks, many tricks.
> This is serious, my life depends on it.
> They have been moving interests, making a big mess with names and
> events. Just think what you can do when you have A LOT of money, like
> the kind when you get a percentage from every soprts ticket sold in
> the country. Something like that.
> It seems they organized a shooting to pretend that I was killed. Then
> I was impersonated by this LBG, using my name and false papers. I was
> oblivious, trying to make my way into the US.
> They have been using my work and ideas to make money behind my back.
> When I appear it is already late. They seem to have bribed people from
> the Army, the CIA and the FBI. One of Bistrain`s cousins is a mexican
> policeman. You don`t need to bribe many people, just a few who will
> act covertly; and they are already incriminated. I don`t know if they
> were to the President of the US and/or the President of Mexico but it
> is very likely. I believe the uncle of Luis Bistrain, RAUL GONZALEZ
> APAOLAZA, HEAD OF THE METRO SYNDICATE HAS DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY.
> It also seems they blackmailed FULL COUNTRIES threatening to make
> people stop paying rents by adevrtising (wrongly and incomplete) my
> Home for All theoric approach, and they managed to get a lot of money
> this way by going to the United Nations. The ambassadors are
> ambassadors, but like any people they and their families are open to
> blackmail and threats and bribes and incriminatio by a mafia like the
> mexican mafia of the Bistrains.
> It seems my mails arrive with changed names, switching Bistrain and
> Bonsignore. And all my replies have been stolen, so thaI make th
> effort and they send their croonies and accomplices to take the
> opportunities.
> It may very well be that they deceived the Presidents of both
> countries who are now not only deceived (lose face), but also may be
> incriminated.
> I believe somebody stole my music, the Rondo and Isabels Death, a
> mexica, who is being protected by the Mexican country, even by Fox who
> really believes it was composed by the thief and wants to protect the
> National Pride, even protecting thieves.
> They have been telling other parties that I want... whatever goes
> against their interests to make me enemies. And they have been
> distributing my work and ideas, which are... judge by yourselves in
> this postings and the ghamac site.
> I NEED HELP. I NEED SOMEBODY TO SEND MY SERACHES IN THE GROUPS TO
> SENATORS AROUND THE WORLD, TO THE FEDERAL POLICE, TO THE UNITED
> NATIONS AND OTHER PLACES. My accounts are easily monitored, I only
> have access to the same few IPs. I need my posts and name to arrive
> from other IPs so that people who might think I am Luis Bistrain learn
> that I am Danilo J Bonsignore, publishing under the name of Fabrizio
> and am in a homeless shelter and not somewhere else.
> This is serious, my life depends on it.
> Thank you.
Reply
Buck Futter Nov 1, 12:40 pm show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.physics,utexas.general,hawaii.politics,soc.culture.spain
From: "Buck Futter" - Find messages by this author
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 20:40:47 GMT
Local: Mon, Nov 1 2004 12:40 pm
Subject: Re: Help me expose a mafia and save my life
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse
You are an imbecile and a moron. Learn how to spell
common English words and do not post here again.
"Fabrizio J. Bonsignore" wrote in message
news:768f7623
.0411010308.7598d5eb@
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
posting.google.com...
> These people seem to try to switch my identity with that of Luis
> Bistrain (Gonzalez). They have money and several tricks, many tricks.
> This is serious, my life depends on it.
> They have been moving interests, making a big mess with names and
> events. Just think what you can do when you have A LOT of money, like
> the kind when you get a percentage from every soprts ticket sold in
> the country. Something like that.
> It seems they organized a shooting to pretend that I was killed. Then
> I was impersonated by this LBG, using my name and false papers. I was
> oblivious, trying to make my way into the US.
> They have been using my work and ideas to make money behind my back.
> When I appear it is already late. They seem to have bribed people from
> the Army, the CIA and the FBI. One of Bistrain`s cousins is a mexican
> policeman. You don`t need to bribe many people, just a few who will
> act covertly; and they are already incriminated. I don`t know if they
> were to the President of the US and/or the President of Mexico but it
> is very likely. I believe the uncle of Luis Bistrain, RAUL GONZALEZ
> APAOLAZA, HEAD OF THE METRO SYNDICATE HAS DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY.
> It also seems they blackmailed FULL COUNTRIES threatening to make
> people stop paying rents by adevrtising (wrongly and incomplete) my
> Home for All theoric approach, and they managed to get a lot of money
> this way by going to the United Nations. The ambassadors are
> ambassadors, but like any people they and their families are open to
> blackmail and threats and bribes and incriminatio by a mafia like the
> mexican mafia of the Bistrains.
> It seems my mails arrive with changed names, switching Bistrain and
> Bonsignore. And all my replies have been stolen, so thaI make th
> effort and they send their croonies and accomplices to take the
> opportunities.
> It may very well be that they deceived the Presidents of both
> countries who are now not only deceived (lose face), but also may be
> incriminated.
> I believe somebody stole my music, the Rondo and Isabels Death, a
> mexica, who is being protected by the Mexican country, even by Fox who
> really believes it was composed by the thief and wants to protect the
> National Pride, even protecting thieves.
> They have been telling other parties that I want... whatever goes
> against their interests to make me enemies. And they have been
> distributing my work and ideas, which are... judge by yourselves in
> this postings and the ghamac site.
> I NEED HELP. I NEED SOMEBODY TO SEND MY SERACHES IN THE GROUPS TO
> SENATORS AROUND THE WORLD, TO THE FEDERAL POLICE, TO THE UNITED
> NATIONS AND OTHER PLACES. My accounts are easily monitored, I only
> have access to the same few IPs. I need my posts and name to arrive
> from other IPs so that people who might think I am Luis Bistrain learn
> that I am Danilo J Bonsignore, publishing under the name of Fabrizio
> and am in a homeless shelter and not somewhere else.
> This is serious, my life depends on it.
> Thank you.
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Nov 2, 2:59 am show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.physics,utexas.general,hawaii.politics,soc.culture.spain
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 2 Nov 2004 02:59:26 -0800
Local: Tues, Nov 2 2004 2:59 am
Subject: Re: Help me expose a mafia and save my life
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse
"Buck Futter" wrote in message ...
> You are an imbecile and a moron. Learn how to spell
> common English words and do not post here again.
Another one who pretends to tell me what to do. So, repost
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
again...
> "Fabrizio J. Bonsignore" wrote in message
> news:768f7623.0410311905.5c007be@posting.google.com...
> > These people seem to try to switch my identity with that of Luis
> > Bistrain (Gonzalez). They have money and several tricks, many tricks.
> > This is serious, my life depends on it.
> > They have been moving interests, making a big mess with names and
> > events. Just think what you can do when you have A LOT of money, like
> > the kind when you get a percentage from every soprts ticket sold in
> > the country. Something like that.
> > It seems they organized a shooting to pretend that I was killed. Then
> > I was impersonated by this LBG, using my name and false papers. I was
> > oblivious, trying to make my way into the US.
> > They have been using my work and ideas to make money behind my back.
> > When I appear it is already late. They seem to have bribed people from
> > the Army, the CIA and the FBI. One of Bistrain`s cousins is a mexican
> > policeman. You don`t need to bribe many people, just a few who will
> > act covertly; and they are already incriminated. I don`t know if they
> > were to the President of the US and/or the President of Mexico but it
> > is very likely. I believe the uncle of Luis Bistrain, RAUL GONZALEZ
> > APAOLAZA, HEAD OF THE METRO SYNDICATE HAS DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY.
> > It also seems they blackmailed FULL COUNTRIES threatening to make
> > people stop paying rents by adevrtising (wrongly and incomplete) my
> > Home for All theoric approach, and they managed to get a lot of money
> > this way by going to the United Nations. The ambassadors are
> > ambassadors, but like any people they and their families are open to
> > blackmail and threats and bribes and incriminatio by a mafia like the
> > mexican mafia of the Bistrains.
> > It seems my mails arrive with changed names, switching Bistrain and
> > Bonsignore. And all my replies have been stolen, so thaI make th
> > effort and they send their croonies and accomplices to take the
> > opportunities.
> > It may very well be that they deceived the Presidents of both
> > countries who are now not only deceived (lose face), but also may be
> > incriminated.
> > I believe somebody stole my music, the Rondo and Isabels Death, a
> > mexica, who is being protected by the Mexican country, even by Fox who
> > really believes it was composed by the thief and wants to protect the
> > National Pride, even protecting thieves.
> > They have been telling other parties that I want... whatever goes
> > against their interests to make me enemies. And they have been
> > distributing my work and ideas, which are... judge by yourselves in
> > this postings and the ghamac site.
> > I NEED HELP. I NEED SOMEBODY TO SEND MY SERACHES IN THE GROUPS TO
> > SENATORS AROUND THE WORLD, TO THE FEDERAL POLICE, TO THE UNITED
> > NATIONS AND OTHER PLACES. My accounts are easily monitored, I only
> > have access to the same few IPs. I need my posts and name to arrive
> > from other IPs so that people who might think I am Luis Bistrain learn
> > that I am Danilo J Bonsignore, publishing under the name of Fabrizio
> > and am in a homeless shelter and not somewhere else.
> > This is serious, my life depends on it.
> > Thank you.
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Nov 2, 3:01 am show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.physics,utexas.general,hawaii.politics,soc.culture.spain
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 2 Nov 2004 03:01:39 -0800
Local: Tues, Nov 2 2004 3:01 am
Subject: Re: Help me expose a mafia and save my life
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
These people seem to try to switch my identity with that of Luis
Bistrain (Gonzalez). They have money and several tricks, many tricks.
This is serious, my life depends on it.
They have been moving interests, making a big mess with names and
events. Just think what you can do when you have A LOT of money, like
the kind when you get a percentage from every soprts ticket sold in
the country. Something like that.
It seems they organized a shooting to pretend that I was killed. Then
I was impersonated by this LBG, using my name and false papers. I was
oblivious, trying to make my way into the US.
They have been using my work and ideas to make money behind my back.
When I appear it is already late. They seem to have bribed people from
the Army, the CIA and the FBI. One of Bistrain`s cousins is a mexican
policeman. You don`t need to bribe many people, just a few who will
act covertly; and they are already incriminated. I don`t know if they
were to the President of the US and/or the President of Mexico but it
is very likely. I believe the uncle of Luis Bistrain, RAUL GONZALEZ
APAOLAZA, HEAD OF THE METRO SYNDICATE HAS DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY.
It also seems they blackmailed FULL COUNTRIES threatening to make
people stop paying rents by adevrtising (wrongly and incomplete) my
Home for All theoric approach, and they managed to get a lot of money
this way by going to the United Nations. The ambassadors are
ambassadors, but like any people they and their families are open to
blackmail and threats and bribes and incriminatio by a mafia like the
mexican mafia of the Bistrains.
It seems my mails arrive with changed names, switching Bistrain and
Bonsignore. And all my replies have been stolen, so thaI make th
effort and they send their croonies and accomplices to take the
opportunities.
It may very well be that they deceived the Presidents of both
countries who are now not only deceived (lose face), but also may be
incriminated.
I believe somebody stole my music, the Rondo and Isabels Death, a
mexica, who is being protected by the Mexican country, even by Fox who
really believes it was composed by the thief and wants to protect the
National Pride, even protecting thieves.
They have been telling other parties that I want... whatever goes
against their interests to make me enemies. And they have been
distributing my work and ideas, which are... judge by yourselves in
this postings and the ghamac site.
I NEED HELP. I NEED SOMEBODY TO SEND MY SERACHES IN THE GROUPS TO
SENATORS AROUND THE WORLD, TO THE FEDERAL POLICE, TO THE UNITED
NATIONS AND OTHER PLACES. My accounts are easily monitored, I only
have access to the same few IPs. I need my posts and name to arrive
from other IPs so that people who might think I am Luis Bistrain learn
that I am Danilo J Bonsignore, publishing under the name of Fabrizio
and am in a homeless shelter and not somewhere else.
This is serious, my life depends on it
.
Thank you
.
Reply
Edward Green Nov 3, 7:25 pm show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.physics,utexas.general,hawaii.politics,soc.culture.spain
From: spamspamsp...@netzero.com (Edward Green) - Find messages by this author
Date: 3 Nov 2004 19:25:20 -0800
Local: Wed, Nov 3 2004 7:25 pm
Subject: Re: Help me expose a mafia and save my life
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse
Uncle Al wrote in message ...
> "Fabrizio J. Bonsignore" wrote:
> > These people seem to try to switch my identity with that of Luis
> > Bistrain (Gonzalez). They have money and several tricks, many tricks.
> > This is serious, my life depends on it.
> [snip psychotic crap]
> Die.
>
>
You're not only a heartless bastard, you're also off the mark: those
references discribe psychopathy, not psychosis. Though maybe you see
yourself in them?
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Nov 4, 6:32 am show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.physics,utexas.general,hawaii.politics,soc.culture.spain
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 4 Nov 2004 06:32:09 -0800
Local: Thurs, Nov 4 2004 6:32 am
Subject: Re: Help me expose a mafia and save my life
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse
spamspamsp...@netzero.com (Edward Green) wrote in message ...
> Uncle Al wrote in message ...
> > "Fabrizio J. Bonsignore" wrote:
> > > These people seem to try to switch my identity with that of Luis
> > > Bistrain (Gonzalez). They have money and several tricks, many tricks.
> > > This is serious, my life depends on it.
> > [snip psychotic crap]
> > Die.
> >
> >
> You're not only a
Explain why:
a) heartless
b) bastard,
c)
you're also off the mark: those
> references discribe psychopathy, not psychosis. Though maybe you see
> yourself in them?
And those references I cannot waste time, when there is a demented
psychopath with money taking revenge for imaginary misdeeds when in
fact the psychopath is the one who commited a crime against me. Don`t
you know that you have to have both sides to judge? Your world is too
limited: you don`t know what a miserly people like Mexico do for
money. And the fame they can`t have for lack of abilities.
Reply
Edward Green Nov 4, 6:18 pm show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.physics,utexas.general,hawaii.politics,soc.culture.spain
From: spamspamsp...@netzero.com (Edward Green) - Find messages by this author
Date: 4 Nov 2004 18:18:35 -0800
Local: Thurs, Nov 4 2004 6:18 pm
Subject: Re: Help me expose a mafia and save my life
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse
fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) wrote in message ...
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> spamspamsp...@netzero.com (Edward Green) wrote in message ...
> > Uncle Al wrote in message ...
> > > "Fabrizio J. Bonsignore" wrote:
> > > > These people seem to try to switch my identity with that of Luis
> > > > Bistrain (Gonzalez). They have money and several tricks, many tricks.
> > > > This is serious, my life depends on it.
> > > [snip psychotic crap]
> > > Die.
> > >
> > >
> > You're not only a
> Explain why:
> a) heartless
> b) bastard,
> c) you're also off the mark: those
Heartless bastard is an inseparable phrase. It fits because he is
simultaneously diganosing you as suffering from an illness and kicking
you for it. Off the mark, because I don't think it is the illness you
are suffering from -- I don't think Al bothered to read his own
references. You appear to an educated layman to be suffering from
paranoid schizophrenia, a condition which has destroyed your life and
left you in a homeless shelter. I am surprised -- though I probably
shouldn't be -- to find out from the responses in this thread that
another long term poster to sci.physics probably also shares your
complaint.
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Nov 5, 8:54 am show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.physics,utexas.general,hawaii.politics,soc.culture.spain
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 5 Nov 2004 08:54:54 -0800
Local: Fri, Nov 5 2004 8:54 am
Subject: Re: Help me expose a mafia and save my life
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse
spamspamsp...@netzero.com (Edward Green) wrote in message ...
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) wrote in message ...
> > spamspamsp...@netzero.com (Edward Green) wrote in message ...
> > > Uncle Al wrote in message ...
> > > > "Fabrizio J. Bonsignore" wrote:
> > > > > These people seem to try to switch my identity with that of Luis
> > > > > Bistrain (Gonzalez). They have money and several tricks, many tricks.
> > > > > This is serious, my life depends on it.
> > > > [snip psychotic crap]
> > > > Die.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > You're not only a
> > Explain why:
> > a) heartless
> > b) bastard,
> > c) you're also off the mark: those
> Heartless bastard is an inseparable phrase. It fits because he is
> simultaneously diganosing you as suffering from an illness and kicking
> you for it. Off the mark, because I don't think it is the illness you
> are suffering from -- I don't think Al bothered to read his own
> references. You appear to an educated layman to be suffering from
> paranoid schizophrenia, a condition which has destroyed your life and
> left you in a homeless shelter. I am surprised -- though I probably
> shouldn't be -- to find out from the responses in this thread that
> another long term poster to sci.physics probably also shares your
> complaint.
What I infer from your reply is that you haven`t read my autobiography
(escape from Veracruz), you haven`t read my posts in sci.econ (read
Home for All) and you live in a developed country (US), so you are
unaware of ehat a miserly country like Mexico can breed initermsof
(in)human quality. So read all available posts before emitting a
judgemet, because I do need people to help me uncover this people by
sending my serach to country at un dot int and other contry`s senates
so that my name and picture (ghamac.org/miniface.jpg) can be kown
beyond Mexico` CISEN embargo. (the militar may be volved due to my wrk
in creative thinking programming aka genemel).
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Nov 5, 3:08 pm show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.physics,utexas.general,hawaii.politics,soc.culture.spain
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 5 Nov 2004 15:08:46 -0800
Local: Fri, Nov 5 2004 3:08 pm
Subject: Re: Help me expose a mafia and save my life
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse
Can somebdy check BY PHONE if these threads are seen in other
countries and within the US under the same name? I was Fabrizio
Bonsignore, but my legal names is Danilo Jose Bonsignore danilo a-t
ghamac do-t o-rg.
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
These people seem to try to switch my identity with that of Luis
Bistrain (Gonzalez). They have money and several tricks, many tricks.
This is serious, my life depends on it.
They have been moving interests, making a big mess with names and
events. Just think what you can do when you have A LOT of money, like
the kind when you get a percentage from every soprts ticket sold in
the country. Something like that.
It seems they organized a shooting to pretend that I was killed. Then
I was impersonated by this LBG, using my name and false papers. I was
oblivious, trying to make my way into the US.
They have been using my work and ideas to make money behind my back.
When I appear it is already late. They seem to have bribed people from
the Army, the CIA and the FBI. One of Bistrain`s cousins is a mexican
policeman. You don`t need to bribe many people, just a few who will
act covertly; and they are already incriminated. I don`t know if they
were to the President of the US and/or the President of Mexico but it
is very likely. I believe the uncle of Luis Bistrain, RAUL GONZALEZ
APAOLAZA, HEAD OF THE METRO SYNDICATE HAS DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY.
It also seems they blackmailed FULL COUNTRIES threatening to make
people stop paying rents by adevrtising (wrongly and incomplete) my
Home for All theoric approach, and they managed to get a lot of money
this way by going to the United Nations. The ambassadors are
ambassadors, but like any people they and their families are open to
blackmail and threats and bribes and incriminatio by a mafia like the
mexican mafia of the Bistrains.
It seems my mails arrive with changed names, switching Bistrain and
Bonsignore. And all my replies have been stolen, so thaI make th
effort and they send their croonies and accomplices to take the
opportunities.
It may very well be that they deceived the Presidents of both
countries who are now not only deceived (lose face), but also may be
incriminated.
I believe somebody stole my music, the Rondo and Isabels Death, a
mexica, who is being protected by the Mexican country, even by Fox who
really believes it was composed by the thief and wants to protect the
National Pride, even protecting thieves.
They have been telling other parties that I want... whatever goes
against their interests to make me enemies. And they have been
distributing my work and ideas, which are... judge by yourselves in
this postings and the ghamac site.
I NEED HELP. I NEED SOMEBODY TO SEND MY SERACHES IN THE GROUPS TO
SENATORS AROUND THE WORLD, TO THE FEDERAL POLICE, TO THE UNITED
NATIONS AND OTHER PLACES. My accounts are easily monitored, I only
have access to the same few IPs. I need my posts and name to arrive
from other IPs so that people who might think I am Luis Bistrain learn
that I am Danilo J Bonsignore, publishing under the name of Fabrizio
and am in a homeless shelter and not somewhere else.
This is serious, my life depends on it
.
Thank you
.
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Nov 5, 8:08 pm show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.physics,utexas.general,hawaii.politics,soc.culture.spain
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 5 Nov 2004 20:08:39 -0800
Local: Fri, Nov 5 2004 8:08 pm
Subject: Re: Help me expose a mafia and save my life
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse
Copy this to a file called anyname.html and open it up in the browser
(use double quotes):
Tomorrow will post the solution.
Reply
Edward Green Nov 6, 4:19 pm show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.physics,utexas.general,hawaii.politics,soc.culture.spain
From: spamspamsp...@netzero.com (Edward Green) - Find messages by this author
Date: 6 Nov 2004 16:19:16 -0800
Local: Sat, Nov 6 2004 4:19 pm
Subject: Re: Help me expose a mafia and save my life
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse
fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) wrote in message ...
> What I infer from your reply is that you haven`t read my autobiography
> (escape from Veracruz), you haven`t read my posts in sci.econ (read
> Home for All) and you live in a developed country (US), so you are
> unaware of ehat a miserly country like Mexico can breed initermsof
> (in)human quality. So read all available posts before emitting a
> judgemet, because I do need people to help me uncover this people by
> sending my serach to country at un dot int and other contry`s senates
> so that my name and picture (ghamac.org/miniface.jpg) can be kown
> beyond Mexico` CISEN embargo. (the militar may be volved due to my wrk
> in creative thinking programming aka genemel).
You are correct that I based my inference entirely on the one long
item you keep reposting. You mean I can't react to the information
you provide in a fresh post without going back to read your entire
life history?
Shizophrenia is a horrible thing to happen to a person.
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Nov 6, 6:32 pm show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.physics,utexas.general,hawaii.politics,soc.culture.spain
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 6 Nov 2004 18:32:01 -0800
Local: Sat, Nov 6 2004 6:32 pm
Subject: Re: Help me expose a mafia and save my life
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse
The solution: first document.write(letters[X]) is the number of
letters of name.
Last two X`s is the sum of indexes of letters _in_name_,
*concatenated*, not counting space nor number of letters (first X
index) nor the last two letters (which appear from 13 and 6). (8)>
Danilo Bonsignore !
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Copy this to a file called anyname.html and open it up in the browser
(use double quotes):
Tomorrow will post the solution
.
Reply
Dramatis personae
All 5 messages in topic - view as tree
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Oct 8, 7:42 pm show options
Newsgroups: alt.atlanta
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 8 Oct 2004 19:42:15 -0700
Local: Fri, Oct 8 2004 7:42 pm
Subject: Dramatis personae
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse
Luis Bistrain is of Basque origin, old fashioned, has the round head
of the Basques, dark eyes (you can`t change your eyes thorugh surgey,
can yo), white, 5`8``(may have shoes to appear taller), rounded and
gay; may have changed his name (Belamy? Laramy? Stobes?), may have
undergone surgery to look like me (I wouldn`t doubt it from him). He
babbles english and french. Gives the impression of a swine (before
any surgeries, that is). His demeanor is sardonic. He is quite
poisonous. I met him in college he was in business administration.
Must be 38 now. Taurus. He may be far away by now... His father is a
lithographic artist. His uncle is Gonzalez Apaolaza, head of Mexico
City`s subway syndicate. May have impersonated me in a position given
by the US goverment. Mexican, may have changed citizenship. May have
been using my name since 2002.
I am 5`6``, have blue eyes, white-pink skin, look golden, parted chin,
ears like dumbo (lasik in left eye, glasses many years), am thin and
slim, have white hair in the forehead (hereditary). Speak three
languages, play guitar, whistle, have cat like movements, long palm,
relatively short fingers, thin wrists. I look ancient from afar. I
wear sideburns. I give the impression of a cat or a Lucifer. 35 yrs
have a little scar on third finger left hand. I can read French.
The two thieves look like the comics of the Gorillaz (song
`Animales`), the batterist is actually shorter than the guitarrist.
The guitarrist might have had nose surgery (his nose was aquiline) and
looks like a easel/spider/piranha, hard to describe but mean and
vermin. The batterist also has a sardonic smile. Both of them are gray
brunettes and Mexican.
Saw them at most 4 times.
Fraunhofer is pink, round cheeks, very deep voice, blonde hair. Looks
childish. Saw him once only. He know the name of the thieves.
de la Puente is also pink, oblong face, freckled, blonde, has a
disgusting, evil smile, of spaniard origin. Looks childish too; he
sent me to the hospital in high school. He uses the expression
`butifarras` quite often. He might have changed his name to Charles
Stoufer (Stoufer ?). He sent me to the hospital in high school.
Alejandro Ledezma Torres is very short, 5`4``, plump, very soft voice,
orange brunette, his uncles are federal policemen in Mexico, his
father was driver for a politician. He stole my Acer computer in 1999.
He is a programmer too.
Not really relevant might mention Roberto. Petite and brunette looks
like Erik Estrada.
My friend Valero is 6 feet high, well firmed, brown brunette, looks
mozarab, fully bearded. Plays piano. Mathematician.
Friend Alberto Espinoza is over 6 feet tall, thin, impression of
giraffe, white-light brunette, glasses, thin face.
All of us may be impersonated, don`t trust testimonies unless I am
present. Fear or my life in NY and my mother and cats in Veracruz.
Extradited by te Mexican government for political charges through a
phony trial (bribes?) in Tx while I was in LA. I may be poisoned with
As or Sr90 or infected throug vermin or other means. This situation
has lasted since 2000. HaVe had no medical tests in this period. I
appeal to the international community for support and rescue. Other
people that know me may be massacred or bribed away.
MEXICAN GOVERMENT WANTS TO INCRIMINATE ME TO AVOID LOSING FACE. ALL
THESE PEOPLE MAY FAKE/BE FAKED DEATH.
See Home for All...
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> > > > ...and to jail too. Fact is I can prove my music is great at any time.
> > > > I tried to give Mexico a generation of composers before coming to
> > > > America but they didn't considered it worthy. Asked for a 25000 grant
> > > > to teach music to poor children and received only 5000, split, with a
> > > > 10% as a "payment" at the end of the 6 month project. And the
> > > > associate treasurer Luis Bistrain defaulted when money was not enough
> > > > to pay the rent and to survive... And I didn't actually needed the
> > > > money, I was working as a programmer. Bad work conditions, but it was
> > > > a relatively well paid job, for Mexico (AI for 2000/m). And the
> > > > workshop is now an excuse to bring back the artist before Mexico loses
> > > > face... and he can expose the thieves who are keeping my music as
> > > > theirs...
> > > > Visit ghamac.org
> > > > ghamac.org/documenti/rondop.mid
My pupils vibrate at will, thus I can be recognized
All 4 messages in topic - view as tree
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Nov 26, 7:46 am show options
Newsgroups: ny.general,la.general,dc.general,tx.general,seattle.general
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 26 Nov 2004 07:46:24 -0800
Local: Fri, Nov 26 2004 7:46 am
Subject: My pupils vibrate at will, thus I can be recognized
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse
I can take control of those muscles and make them vibrate. The
vibration is noticeable.
Future of Man: the Speciation Process
All 21 messages in topic - view as tree
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Sep 14, 9:34 pm show options
Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.humanism,alt.religion,sci.skeptic,sci.econ
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 14 Sep 2004 21:34:54 -0700
Local: Tues, Sep 14 2004 9:34 pm
Subject: Future of Man: the Speciation Process
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse
That Evolution is stopped in relation to Reason doesn`t mean that the
basic definition of the human species is not changing, only that this
change is so slow that for practical purposes is irrelevant. And yet
the basic requirements for the speciation process in Man are already
given.
There are, not only geographical barriers to cross breeding but also
sociopolitical ones. In fact, each national state is in itself a
melting pot where one of the possible futures of Man is being born.
There are strong barriers to cross race procreation. How long before
those barriers turn from social to biological ones? Strictly speaking,
the Down syndrome children are *already* a different species; a
different number of chromosomes which, if allowed to interbreed will
eventually lead to a totally different species, unable to procreate
with `normal` humans. Exactly what space of possibilities in the
Reality of biological beings will they be exploring, quite literally
only they know. To many people they are indeed special, and that
speciality might in te future reveal in interesting ways if a
population of them is allowed to form and develop for itself.
Even is Reason is the defining characteristic in the human species
doesn`t mean that it must remain so for the unforseeable future. Whole
populations can be interbreeding to select, from a social (mores,
prejudices) point of view, characteristics that emphatize not an
increase in intelligence but a decrease, an involution. Nowhere says
or is written that intelligence as we know it must remain in the
definition of the species. Though language very probably will remain a
basic characteristic of future humanities (too useful to ignore),
different roles for it may develop accordingly to other biological
characteristics and different humanities may grant it a bigger or
lesser importance in their everyday behaviour (there are societies
that read an write little, while others dedicate lots of resource to
verbal and/or written communication). DNA is a language that changes
in subtle and almost continuous way, give the enormous quatities of
information that go in the definition of an individual.
Unfortunately, this speciation process is such that it introduces
tensions in the human family. By its mere definition, the speciation
process can lead to wars and other social unrest among Nations. That
we be able to manage this divergent differences peacefully is one of
the most challenging aspects of the future of Man...
Reply
Joseph H Sep 16, 1:08 pm show options
Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.humanism,alt.religion,sci.skeptic,sci.econ
From: jos...@humanisation.org (Joseph H) - Find messages by this author
Date: 16 Sep 2004 13:08:15 -0700
Local: Thurs, Sep 16 2004 1:08 pm
Subject: Re: Future of Man: the Speciation Process
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fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) wrote in message ...
> That Evolution is stopped in relation to Reason doesn`t mean that the
> basic definition of the human species is not changing, only that this
> change is so slow that for practical purposes is irrelevant. And yet
> the basic requirements for the speciation process in Man are already
> given.
Ciao, Fabrizio. Question: if the speciation process is so slow why are
we discussing it? Are there not more urgent matters?
> There are, not only geographical barriers to cross breeding but also
> sociopolitical ones. In fact, each national state is in itself a
> melting pot where one of the possible futures of Man is being born.
> There are strong barriers to cross race procreation. How long before
> those barriers turn from social to biological ones? Strictly speaking,
> the Down syndrome children are *already* a different species; a
> different number of chromosomes which, if allowed to interbreed will
> eventually lead to a totally different species, unable to procreate
> with `normal` humans. Exactly what space of possibilities in the
> Reality of biological beings will they be exploring, quite literally
> only they know. To many people they are indeed special, and that
> speciality might in te future reveal in interesting ways if a
> population of them is allowed to form and develop for itself.
This is somewhat clinical, is it not? I think most science would be
more concerned with finding a resolution to the chromosomal difficulty
than with observing where it might eventually lead us. Okay, I know,
the spirit of inquiry etc, but...
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> Even is Reason is the defining characteristic in the human species
> doesn`t mean that it must remain so for the unforseeable future. Whole
> populations can be interbreeding to select, from a social (mores,
> prejudices) point of view, characteristics that emphatize not an
> increase in intelligence but a decrease, an involution. Nowhere says
> or is written that intelligence as we know it must remain in the
> definition of the species. Though language very probably will remain a
> basic characteristic of future humanities (too useful to ignore),
> different roles for it may develop accordingly to other biological
> characteristics and different humanities may grant it a bigger or
> lesser importance in their everyday behaviour (there are societies
> that read an write little, while others dedicate lots of resource to
> verbal and/or written communication). DNA is a language that changes
> in subtle and almost continuous way, give the enormous quatities of
> information that go in the definition of an individual.
Can't honestly see the connexion between the main theme of that
paragraph and the final sentence. Certainly language - to take an
example - might be devalued. But the way to counter this is to exalt
certain aspects of our human endowment. Indeed, the only way we can
counter all the forthcoming challenges that advanced technology,
knowledge etc, may put in our way is - again - to so exalt certain
aspects of human ability and human past, to exalt them so that they
become effectively the replacement for religion. This is close to
humanism - but it is not humanism. It is much more radical. It is a
recognition and exaltation of our human place in the cosmos. (See my
web-site www.humanisation.org).
Your final sentence, on the other hand, is a very well expressed
statement of fact.
> Unfortunately, this speciation process is such that it introduces
> tensions in the human family. By its mere definition, the speciation
> process can lead to wars and other social unrest among Nations. That
> we be able to manage this divergent differences peacefully is one of
> the most challenging aspects of the future of Man...
Yes, yes - but, again, there are more pressing matters, gene therapy,
cloning etc. Would these be cases of speciation?
Ciao
Joseph H
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Sep 16, 8:08 pm show options
Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.humanism,alt.religion,sci.skeptic,sci.econ
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 16 Sep 2004 20:08:05 -0700
Local: Thurs, Sep 16 2004 8:08 pm
Subject: Re: Future of Man: the Speciation Process
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jos...@humanisation.org (Joseph H) wrote in message ...
> fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) wrote in message ...
> > That Evolution is stopped in relation to Reason doesn`t mean that the
> > (snip)
> Ciao, Fabrizio. Question: if the speciation process is so slow why are
> we discussing it? Are there not more urgent matters?
It is one of the possible futures. Actually I don`t know how slow it
is. European countries have a lower rate of birth than, say
latinamrican countries. Are there studies on how much that rate is a
consecuence of purely cultural aspects and how much depends on the
particular gene pool of a particular populations? Race intermixing is
close to anathema even in the most liberal societies, and national
frontiers are an effective barrier to procreation even in similar
populations. A good ethnologist can distinguish people by country of
origin and definitely there are populations that are very unlikely to
produce offspring; say, swedes and uruguayans, and not because of
racial prejudices but because of geographical, even language barriers.
Eventually these national populations will diverge in important ways
that will prevent them from procreating, most likely first by simple
sexual attraction (on average), later due to incompatibilities in
genotypes. I don`t know if there are `second order` (like in
differential analysis) studies geared toward differential fertility;
we may get a surprise, but then I guess there are certain combinations
for which we will fin few couples to perform those studies.
Yet what makes relevant the discussion is that the first `symptom` of
the speciation process in the human species, i.e., the isolation of
populations, is already in place as a _biological_, basic determinant
in social phenomena as common as racism, while at the same time social
phenomena can be interpreted from a biological point of view as
effective (or not so effective) barriers to procreation and
speciation. Many tensions that underlie the human family have their
origin in this urge of animals (no offense intended) to cluster with
the similars and repudiate the divergent. This principle, sort of
equivalent to electrical repulsion and attraction, is also exemplified
in the structuring of social hierarchies, where top and base are as
different as the group allows and procreation proceeds among
individuals in the same or contiguous levels. This is also a sort of
minimization of energy principle, as interaction with similars must be
more `economical` (for instance in terms of information processing of
behaviours, where it is easier to understand individuals who perform
the same kind of behaviors than it is to understand individuals with
different behaviours, or languages), will act on average as a survival
adaptation, and will have the concomitant effect of helping select
similar genotypes that minimize the possibility of errors during
reproduction. (Of course, this processes follow optimization schedules
with optima as goals to reach on complex surfaces).
> > (snip) only they know. To many people they are indeed special, and that
> > speciality might in te future reveal in interesting ways if a
> > population of them is allowed to form and develop for itself.
> This is somewhat clinical, is it not? I think most science would be
> more concerned with finding a resolution to the chromosomal difficulty
> than with observing where it might eventually lead us. Okay, I know,
> the spirit of inquiry etc, but...
? Maybe we can `correct` the DNA mistake, but meanwhile they are a
different species. I am not a social worker, but if two Down people
want to procreate I guess it would be more respectful to help them
find te necessary support than to simply say no. I expect more
knowledgeable people to comment on this idea.
> > (snip)
> > DNA is a language that changes
> > in subtle and almost continuous way, give the enormous quatities of
> > information that go in the definition of an individual.
> Can't honestly see the connexion between the main theme of that
> paragraph and the final sentence.
I admit that these posts are more notes than finished exercises, but
given my present circumstances and the interests from Mexico to prove
my work and the products of my inspiration are not mine (you can
search Fabrizio J Bonsignore in google groups and sort by date) I
prefer the occasional non-sequitur than leave an idea unattended and
then forget it. Sort of a race to outpublsh the thieves, who seems are
being treated as gods and heroes while I have to write from a public
phone booth with metal keys. I`ve already lost too much to thieves and
criminals and plagiarists. This is intended to be a serious study and
book but...
> Certainly language - to take an
> example - might be devalued. But the way to counter this is to exalt
> certain aspects of our human endowment. Indeed, the only way we can
> counter all the forthcoming challenges that advanced technology,
> knowledge etc, may put in our way is - again - to so exalt certain
> aspects of human ability and human past, to exalt them so that they
> become effectively the replacement for religion. This is close to
I don`t think religion per se can be replaced, but we may yet find
different kinds of mystical exercises, individual and grupal.
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> humanism - but it is not humanism. It is much more radical. It is a
> recognition and exaltation of our human place in the cosmos. (See my
> web-site www.humanisation.org).
> Your final sentence, on the other hand, is a very well expressed
> statement of fact.
8)
> > Unfortunately, this speciation process is such that it introduces
> > tensions in the human family. By its mere definition, the speciation
> > process can lead to wars and other social unrest among Nations. That
> > we be able to manage this divergent differences peacefully is one of
> > the most challenging aspects of the future of Man...
> Yes, yes - but, again, there are more pressing matters, gene therapy,
> cloning etc. Would these be cases of speciation?
That will be the matter of another posting...
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Sep 16, 9:08 pm show options
Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.humanism,alt.religion,sci.skeptic,sci.econ
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 16 Sep 2004 21:08:35 -0700
Local: Thurs, Sep 16 2004 9:08 pm
Subject: Re: Future of Man: the Speciation Process
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jos...@humanisation.org (Joseph H) wrote in message ...
> fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) wrote in message ...
> > That Evolution is stopped in relation to Reason doesn`t mean that the
> > basic definition of the human species is not changing, only that this
> > change is so slow that for practical purposes is irrelevant. And yet
> > the basic requirements for the speciation process in Man are already
> > given.
> Ciao, Fabrizio. Question: if the speciation process is so slow why are
> we discussing it? Are there not more urgent matters?
Just an addendum to the previous answer`s comments as to interests,
thieves, loses, etc. Looks like an old associate-employee of mine (the
name is mentioned elsewhere), has been tryinf or tried or maybe even
succeeding in impersonating me as the true owner and source of my
files and most probably of the document Alive and Human. Colors may
not be enough to distinguish us, but while I am 5`6`` (1.65) he is
maybe an inch or more taller and, most important, has a round head, a
la Socrates, while I am dolicocephalic. I don`t know if eye color can
be changed without contact lenses (distinguishable), but my eyes are
blue while his are brown. There may be other impersonators taking
advantage of the commerical aspect of my work while manipulating dark
forces to take me out of the way... permanently if possible. In Mexico
is called the `madruguete` the technique to steal by arriving earlier
while you re unprepared, and since the last few years I have been
fleeing from this thieves after they entered my house, blocked my
toilet (and with cats, imagine...), messed with acquaintances,
neighbors, boss (lost my job unexpectedly), school companions, even
with the person that picked up the trash and even stole electric
current from me and tried ti murder me and persecuted me to another
state in Mexico and kept threatening and stealing and hacking and
harassing and attempting murder and manhunting me generally, it was
until I finally arrived to the United States and achieved a somewhat
stable situation that I started selling my works, only to find nobody
was buying and there were no replies and my mails were dissapearing
and there were agitators in the streets shouting the content of
personal communications and generally my life became rather miserable
until I stopped in a drop in shelter were I sleep on a pair of chairs
and have to stay the rest of the day fom 7 in the morning to after 11
in the night sending mails and trying to be productive. So I fell
victim of the madruguete and now I am trying to locate this animals to
put them under justice. So if you find this material elsewhere (the
original parts), you now who to tell. I am sure that eventually I will
find them... and have them tell to my face that they are the authors
of my work.
visit ghamac.org/miniface.jpg
Danilo J Bonsignore (changed first name to have papers match and now
avoid spam)
Reply
robert j. kolker Sep 17, 12:21 am show options
Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.humanism,alt.religion,sci.skeptic,sci.econ
From: "robert j. kolker" - Find messages by this author
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 03:21:49 -0400
Local: Fri, Sep 17 2004 12:21 am
Subject: Re: Future of Man: the Speciation Process
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Fabrizio J. Bonsignore wrote:
speciation. Many tensions that underlie the human family have their
> origin in this urge of animals (no offense intended) to cluster with
> the similars and repudiate the divergent.
Why apologize? We ARE animals. Just because we can talk and add does not
change anything essential
Bob Kolker
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Sep 17, 6:56 pm show options
Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.humanism,alt.religion,sci.skeptic,sci.econ
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 17 Sep 2004 18:56:15 -0700
Local: Fri, Sep 17 2004 6:56 pm
Subject: Re: Future of Man: the Speciation Process
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"robert j. kolker" wrote in message ...
> Fabrizio J. Bonsignore wrote:
> speciation. Many tensions that underlie the human family have their
> > origin in this urge of animals (no offense intended) to cluster with
> > the similars and repudiate the divergent.
> Why apologize? We ARE animals. Just because we can talk and add does not
> change anything essential
> Bob Kolker
Believe me, many people gets REALLY offended. One acquaintance in
Mexico used to call people animals and generated such hates aginst me
in my neigbors... Then there is such song calles `Animales` I wonder
if they are related?
I guess I am very influenced by the work of Desmond Morris. It
certainly changed my way of looking at human beings...
Reply
zerge Sep 20, 12:17 pm show options
Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.humanism,alt.religion,sci.skeptic,sci.econ
From: z...@hotmail.com (zerge) - Find messages by this author
Date: 20 Sep 2004 12:17:41 -0700
Local: Mon, Sep 20 2004 12:17 pm
Subject: Re: Future of Man: the Speciation Process
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- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) wrote in message ...
> That Evolution is stopped in relation to Reason doesn`t mean that the
> basic definition of the human species is not changing, only that this
> change is so slow that for practical purposes is irrelevant. And yet
> the basic requirements for the speciation process in Man are already
> given.
> There are, not only geographical barriers to cross breeding but also
> sociopolitical ones. In fact, each national state is in itself a
> melting pot where one of the possible futures of Man is being born.
> There are strong barriers to cross race procreation. How long before
> those barriers turn from social to biological ones? Strictly speaking,
> the Down syndrome children are *already* a different species; a
> different number of chromosomes which, if allowed to interbreed will
> eventually lead to a totally different species, unable to procreate
> with `normal` humans. Exactly what space of possibilities in the
> Reality of biological beings will they be exploring, quite literally
> only they know. To many people they are indeed special, and that
> speciality might in te future reveal in interesting ways if a
> population of them is allowed to form and develop for itself.
> Even is Reason is the defining characteristic in the human species
> doesn`t mean that it must remain so for the unforseeable future. Whole
> populations can be interbreeding to select, from a social (mores,
> prejudices) point of view, characteristics that emphatize not an
> increase in intelligence but a decrease, an involution. Nowhere says
> or is written that intelligence as we know it must remain in the
> definition of the species. Though language very probably will remain a
> basic characteristic of future humanities (too useful to ignore),
> different roles for it may develop accordingly to other biological
> characteristics and different humanities may grant it a bigger or
> lesser importance in their everyday behaviour (there are societies
> that read an write little, while others dedicate lots of resource to
> verbal and/or written communication). DNA is a language that changes
> in subtle and almost continuous way, give the enormous quatities of
> information that go in the definition of an individual.
> Unfortunately, this speciation process is such that it introduces
> tensions in the human family. By its mere definition, the speciation
> process can lead to wars and other social unrest among Nations. That
> we be able to manage this divergent differences peacefully is one of
> the most challenging aspects of the future of Man...
Human groups in the past went through entire eras isolated totally and
absolutely from each other, and no speciation occurred. Think the
Polinesian and American people who lived tens of thousands of years
isolated from Europeans. Yet when then entered into contact with
Europeans, they where still the same species and where able to
reproduce.
In this modern age migration between countries is enormous in
comparison, so the chances of speciation, in my opinion, seem pretty
slim.
The only possibility of speciation for humans is in the distant
future, if human groups colonize other planets and stay isolated from
each other for millenia. But my intuition tells me that for speciation
to occur, it requires a LOOOONG time of isolation.
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Sep 30, 7:39 pm show options
Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.humanism,alt.religion,sci.skeptic,sci.econ
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 30 Sep 2004 19:39:03 -0700
Local: Thurs, Sep 30 2004 7:39 pm
Subject: Re: Future of Man: the Speciation Process
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z...@hotmail.com (zerge) wrote in message news:...
> fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) wrote in message ...
> > That Evolution is stopped in relation to Reason doesn`t mean that the
> > basic definition of the human species is not changing, only that this
(snip)
> Human groups in the past went through entire eras isolated totally and
> absolutely from each other, and no speciation occurred. Think the
> Polinesian and American people who lived tens of thousands of years
> isolated from Europeans. Yet when then entered into contact with
> Europeans, they where still the same species and where able to
> reproduce.
Precisely one of the main points of Alive and Human is that evolution
is stopped for all practical matters, given the survival advantages of
Reason. It means that the selection criteria of fitness of the
strongest stops working for the human species. It breaks the natural
mechanisms under which life forms were formed (what a pun), like the
importance of having numerous offspring and the necessity of arriving
first as a mechanism for distribution of resources (here the market
changes the arrive first principle to the more `reasonable` [humane
one?] of clearing the market through monetary votes).
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Sep 30, 8:01 pm show options
Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.humanism,alt.religion,sci.skeptic,sci.econ
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 30 Sep 2004 20:01:23 -0700
Local: Thurs, Sep 30 2004 8:01 pm
Subject: Re: Future of Man: the Speciation Process
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z...@hotmail.com (zerge) wrote in message ...
> fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) wrote in message ...
> > That Evolution is stopped in relation to Reason doesn`t mean that the
> > basic definition of the human species is not changing, only that this
(snip
)
> In this modern age migration between countries is enormous in
> comparison, so the chances of speciation, in my opinion, seem pretty
> slim.
There are very effective barriers to migration: countries and
language, and they may become harder to penetrate, less porous, the
ore humans inhabit the planet.
> The only possibility of speciation for humans is in the distant
> future, if human groups colonize other planets and stay isolated from
> each other for millenia. But my intuition tells me that for speciation
> to occur, it requires a LOOOONG time of isolation.
Maybe even millenia is a short span for the speciation process to take
place, but then the species did develop races. It took less than a
million years, it seems, and countries developed physical
characteristics in a short span of time, some hundred years, though
modern transportation will change those ethnic characteristics as it
effectively puts in touch populations that were previously isolated. I
don`t know how long it takes for a species to diverge; I guess time
will vary from family to family, but nothing precludes the possibility
of change being very swift, like a recessive or hidden mutatio
spreading throughout a population confined by the barriers of a
national State. Even if speciation as such doesn`t occur, other
changes might do. Think for instance very tall and very small
populations. I am speculating, but very small women may have trouble
delivering the children of very tall people (?). In such case both
populations would act as different species if offspring tends to be
non viable. We might even speak of `virtual human species`, even
within a race, if for any reason, (historical, cultural), those
populations don`t `mix`. The criteria is leaving offspring. Infant
killing, if widespread and sanctioned by a culture may have the same
effect as impossibility to reproduce, though in our modern age such
phenomenon would be very unlikely...
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Oct 1, 3:52 am show options
Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.humanism,alt.religion,sci.skeptic,sci.econ
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 1 Oct 2004 03:52:35 -0700
Local: Fri, Oct 1 2004 3:52 am
Subject: Re: Future of Man: the Speciation Process
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Civilization imposes barriers to inter-population breeding analogous
to the geographical and ecological barriers that generate the
divergence of species in non rational living beings. These barriers
ensure that characteristic traits get spread among a population that
distinguishes it from other populations. These physical
characteristics are object of study of ethnology, while the cultural
characteristics, extensin and complement of the physical ones, is the
object of study of anthropology.
Human created barriers have the effect of limiting procreation among
populations; these limits if perdurable will eventually lead to
biological divergences and the creation of new human species with
characteristic traits. The process may need millions of years or only
some hundreds, depending on the appearance and propagation of
mutations. If cultural barriers to procreation are such that
interbreeding is almost assured to be null, we can speak of virtual
human subspecies, not necessarily coincident with human races. In
psychological terms it is less costly to form a family with people
with similar physical characteristics and upbringing. Racism and
intolerance are expressions of the underlying biological economy of
procreating with similar individuals and further act to reinforce
biological divergences; in other words, we hate (populations) because
we don`t want to have children with them.
Each population exemplifies different aspects of the human possibility
space and add to the species diversity. These differences are valuable
per se.
The speciation process is such that for every generation biological
change seems nonexistent compared to the possibilities open by Reason.
In practical terms evolution is stop nonetheless.
Reply
zerge Oct 1, 7:19 am show options
Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.humanism,alt.religion,sci.skeptic,sci.econ
From: z...@hotmail.com (zerge) - Find messages by this author
Date: 1 Oct 2004 07:19:32 -0700
Local: Fri, Oct 1 2004 7:19 am
Subject: Re: Future of Man: the Speciation Process
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fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) wrote in message ...
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> z...@hotmail.com (zerge) wrote in message ...
> > fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) wrote in message ...
> > > That Evolution is stopped in relation to Reason doesn`t mean that the
> > > basic definition of the human species is not changing, only that this
> (snip)
> > Human groups in the past went through entire eras isolated totally and
> > absolutely from each other, and no speciation occurred. Think the
> > Polinesian and American people who lived tens of thousands of years
> > isolated from Europeans. Yet when then entered into contact with
> > Europeans, they where still the same species and where able to
> > reproduce.
> Precisely one of the main points of Alive and Human is that evolution
> is stopped for all practical matters, given the survival advantages of
> Reason. It means that the selection criteria of fitness of the
> strongest stops working for the human species.
Not quite. Even with the advent of antibiotics, we are still engaged
in an evolutionary arms race against our #1 predators: germs.
Bacteria, virus and parasites kill off millions of people each year;
those who survive the disease may pass to their offspring the genes
that allow his/her immune system to battle such diseases. The germs
keep mutating and grow resistant to our medicine, so evolution
continues; it's just not obvious at the phenotypic level.
Reply
Dez Akin Oct 1, 11:23 am show options
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From: deza...@usa.net (Dez Akin) - Find messages by this author
Date: 1 Oct 2004 11:23:03 -0700
Local: Fri, Oct 1 2004 11:23 am
Subject: Re: Future of Man: the Speciation Process
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- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
z...@hotmail.com (zerge) wrote in message ...
> fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) wrote in message ...
> > That Evolution is stopped in relation to Reason doesn`t mean that the
> > basic definition of the human species is not changing, only that this
> > change is so slow that for practical purposes is irrelevant. And yet
> > the basic requirements for the speciation process in Man are already
> > given.
> > Unfortunately, this speciation process is such that it introduces
> > tensions in the human family. By its mere definition, the speciation
> > process can lead to wars and other social unrest among Nations. That
> > we be able to manage this divergent differences peacefully is one of
> > the most challenging aspects of the future of Man...
> Human groups in the past went through entire eras isolated totally and
> absolutely from each other, and no speciation occurred. Think the
> Polinesian and American people who lived tens of thousands of years
> isolated from Europeans. Yet when then entered into contact with
> Europeans, they where still the same species and where able to
> reproduce.
> In this modern age migration between countries is enormous in
> comparison, so the chances of speciation, in my opinion, seem pretty
> slim.
> The only possibility of speciation for humans is in the distant
> future, if human groups colonize other planets and stay isolated from
> each other for millenia. But my intuition tells me that for speciation
> to occur, it requires a LOOOONG time of isolation.
Indeed waxing ad nausium about the future of human evolution is a
little ridiculous, given that almost any change in the human genome
going forward will be engineered rather than evolved; if we even cling
to biological forms long enough for the argument to be meaningful,
which I doubt. The age of meat puppets is drawing to a close.
Reply
robert j. kolker Oct 1, 4:29 pm show options
Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.humanism,alt.religion,sci.skeptic,sci.econ
From: "robert j. kolker" - Find messages by this author
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 19:29:48 -0400
Local: Fri, Oct 1 2004 4:29 pm
Subject: Re: Future of Man: the Speciation Process
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Fabrizio J. Bonsignore wrote:
> Precisely one of the main points of Alive and Human is that evolution
> is stopped for all practical matters, given the survival advantages of
> Reason. It means that the selection criteria of fitness of the
> strongest stops working for the human species. It breaks the natural
> mechanisms under which life forms were formed (what a pun), like the
> importance of having numerous offspring and the necessity of arriving
> first as a mechanism for distribution of resources (here the market
> changes the arrive first principle to the more `reasonable` [humane
> one?] of clearing the market through monetary votes).
You think so? What will happen when an asteroid 40 km accross hits the
earth. Reason will not suffice. If that happens we are kaput.
Bob Kolker
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Oct 1, 8:24 pm show options
Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.humanism,alt.religion,sci.skeptic,sci.econ
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 1 Oct 2004 20:24:51 -0700
Local: Fri, Oct 1 2004 8:24 pm
Subject: Re: Future of Man: the Speciation Process
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deza...@usa.net (Dez Akin) wrote in message news:...
> z...@hotmail.com (zerge) wrote in message ...
> > fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) wrote in message ...
> > > That Evolution is stopped in relation to Reason doesn`t mean that the
> > > basic definition of the human species is not changing, only that this
> > > change is so slow that for practical purposes is irrelevant. And yet
> > > the basic requirements for the speciation process in Man are already
> > > given.
> > > Unfortunately, this speciation process is such that it introduces
> > > tensions in the human family. By its mere definition, the speciation
> > > process can lead to wars and other social unrest among Nations. That
> > > we be able to manage this divergent differences peacefully is one of
> > > the most challenging aspects of the future of Man...
> > Human groups in the past went through entire eras isolated totally and
> > absolutely from each other, and no speciation occurred. Think the
> > Polinesian and American people who lived tens of thousands of years
> > isolated from Europeans. Yet when then entered into contact with
> > Europeans, they where still the same species and where able to
> > reproduce.
> > In this modern age migration between countries is enormous in
> > comparison, so the chances of speciation, in my opinion, seem pretty
> > slim.
> > The only possibility of speciation for humans is in the distant
> > future, if human groups colonize other planets and stay isolated from
> > each other for millenia. But my intuition tells me that for speciation
> > to occur, it requires a LOOOONG time of isolation.
> Indeed waxing ad nausium about the future of human evolution is a
> little ridiculous, given that almost any change in the human genome
> going forward will be engineered rather than evolved; if we even cling
> to biological forms long enough for the argument to be meaningful,
> which I doubt. The age of meat puppets is drawing to a close.
Precisely the theme of the next future... (8)>
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Oct 2, 3:18 am show options
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From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 2 Oct 2004 03:18:38 -0700
Local: Sat, Oct 2 2004 3:18 am
Subject: Re: Future of Man: the Speciation Process
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"robert j. kolker" wrote in message ...
> Fabrizio J. Bonsignore wrote:
> > Precisely one of the main points of Alive and Human is that evolution
> > is stopped for all practical matters, given the survival advantages of
> > Reason. It means that the selection criteria of fitness of the
(snip)
> You think so? What will happen when an asteroid 40 km accross hits the
> earth. Reason will not suffice. If that happens we are kaput.
> Bob Kolker
Would be very bad luck if that happens this century. But Reason would
give us the survival advantage for we would understand what is
happening. Hard, but we are already aware of the possibility and have
many ears to the sky. Question is whether governments would TELL US or
keep it a secret, in an attempt to keep control to the last minute and
avoid chaos (what for then, indeed?), or to give officials a small, or
big, advantage over the rest of us. What would you do if you have the
certainty it is going to happen?
For all I know an asteroid is already coming this way and we have to
evaquate the planet now! (8(>
I guess some of us would survive and biological characteristics would
have more importance then that they have in an organized society as a
mean of survival. For instance, fertility, resistance to cold,
strength, small size (less calories needed), endurance, etc. But then
simply evaporating most of a population doesn`t make it evolve, it
only selects some characteristics, and for an asteroid on an almost
random basis. It would be after several generations and through
isolation that speciation would occur, though again how long would it
take is an unknown. There is no central clock to speciation.
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Oct 2, 7:03 am show options
Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.humanism,alt.religion,sci.skeptic,sci.econ
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 2 Oct 2004 07:03:10 -0700
Local: Sat, Oct 2 2004 7:03 am
Subject: Re: Future of Man: the Speciation Process
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z...@hotmail.com (zerge) wrote in message news:...
> fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) wrote in message ...
> > z...@hotmail.com (zerge) wrote in message ...
> > > fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) wrote in message ...
> > > > That Evolution is stopped in relation to Reason doesn`t mean that the
> > > > basic definition of the human species is not changing, only that this
> (snip)
> > > Human groups in the past went through entire eras isolated totally and
> > > absolutely from each other, and no speciation occurred. Think the
> > > Polinesian and American people who lived tens of thousands of years
> > > isolated from Europeans. Yet when then entered into contact with
> > > Europeans, they where still the same species and where able to
> > > reproduce.
> > Precisely one of the main points of Alive and Human is that evolution
> > is stopped for all practical matters, given the survival advantages of
> > Reason. It means that the selection criteria of fitness of the
> > strongest stops working for the human species.
> Not quite. Even with the advent of antibiotics, we are still engaged
> in an evolutionary arms race against our #1 predators: germs.
> Bacteria, virus and parasites kill off millions of people each year;
> those who survive the disease may pass to their offspring the genes
> that allow his/her immune system to battle such diseases. The germs
> keep mutating and grow resistant to our medicine, so evolution
> continues; it's just not obvious at the phenotypic level.
But now this race has a third component, antibiotics, so the system is
already different from purely bioevolutionary ones since antibiotics
are a product of Reason. Problem with your argument is that we don`t
survive an infection because of genetic traits, but BECAUSE we use
antibiotics, so medicines DISALLOW the pure expression of genetic
resistance. And given the speed with which germs change, what actually
evolves (or should evolve) is the pharmaceutical industry. Changing
genetic traits, i. e., the exploration by populations of possible
human individuals in the possibility space for human
genotype-phenotype combinations does not mean that we are evolving,
that is, changing the basic definition of Man (two eyes, stereo
vision, s-curved spine, you name it).
Reply
Bill Thompson Oct 2, 2:59 pm show options
Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.humanism,alt.religion,sci.skeptic,sci.econ
From: "Bill Thompson" - Find messages by this author
Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 21:59:36 GMT
Local: Sat, Oct 2 2004 2:59 pm
Subject: Re: Future of Man: the Speciation Process
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"Fabrizio J. Bonsignore" wrote in message
news:768f7623.0410020603.47277b64@posting.google.com...
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> z...@hotmail.com (zerge) wrote in message
...
> > fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) wrote in message
news
:<768f7623
.0409301839
.cce2761@posting.google.com>...
> > > z...@hotmail.com (zerge) wrote in message
...
> > > > fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) wrote in message
news:<768f7623.0409142034
.7fe8e8b1@posting.google.com>...
> > > > > That Evolution is stopped in relation to Reason doesn`t mean that
the
> > > > > basic definition of the human species is not changing, only that
this
> > (snip)
> > > > Human groups in the past went through entire eras isolated totally
and
> > > > absolutely from each other, and no speciation occurred. Think the
> > > > Polinesian and American people who lived tens of thousands of years
> > > > isolated from Europeans. Yet when then entered into contact with
> > > > Europeans, they where still the same species and where able to
> > > > reproduce.
> > > Precisely one of the main points of Alive and Human is that evolution
> > > is stopped for all practical matters, given the survival advantages of
> > > Reason. It means that the selection criteria of fitness of the
> > > strongest stops working for the human species.
> > Not quite. Even with the advent of antibiotics, we are still engaged
> > in an evolutionary arms race against our #1 predators: germs.
> > Bacteria, virus and parasites kill off millions of people each year;
> > those who survive the disease may pass to their offspring the genes
> > that allow his/her immune system to battle such diseases. The germs
> > keep mutating and grow resistant to our medicine, so evolution
> > continues; it's just not obvious at the phenotypic level.
> But now this race has a third component, antibiotics, so the system is
> already different from purely bioevolutionary ones since antibiotics
> are a product of Reason. Problem with your argument is that we don`t
> survive an infection because of genetic traits, but BECAUSE we use
> antibiotics, so medicines DISALLOW the pure expression of genetic
> resistance. And given the speed with which germs change, what actually
> evolves (or should evolve) is the pharmaceutical industry. Changing
> genetic traits, i. e., the exploration by populations of possible
> human individuals in the possibility space for human
> genotype-phenotype combinations does not mean that we are evolving,
> that is, changing the basic definition of Man (two eyes, stereo
> vision, s-curved spine, you name it).
Let's say a killer bacteria, virus, or phage appears with which the
pharmaceutical industry is unable to deal. A few people survive. They
reproduce. Evolution in action. As of now, hairless apes tinkering with
the immune system is akin to working on a swiss watch with a crowbar.
Reply
Joseph H Oct 3, 4:18 am show options
Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.humanism,alt.religion,sci.skeptic,sci.econ
From: jos...@humanisation.org (Joseph H) - Find messages by this author
Date: 3 Oct 2004 04:18:33 -0700
Local: Sun, Oct 3 2004 4:18 am
Subject: Re: Future of Man: the Speciation Process
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we hate (populations) because
> we don`t want to have children with them.
I'm not a scientist but I sense the reason we dislike "other"
populations - or towns, or streets, or families -is more complex than
just not wanting to have children with them. There are, I would
imagine, so many more aspects of difference, threat, fear, suspicion,
superstition etc etc.
> Each population exemplifies different aspects of the human possibility
> space and add to the species diversity. These differences are valuable
> per se.
> The speciation process is such that for every generation biological
> change seems nonexistent compared to the possibilities open by Reason.
> In practical terms evolution is stop nonetheless.
Would agree with that. Reason or belief or an idea or a conviction or
a policy.
Humanisation offers many of the above.
Joseph H
www.humanisation.org
Reply
Dave Oldridge Oct 4, 1:50 am show options
Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.humanism,alt.religion,sci.skeptic,sci.econ
From: Dave Oldridge - Find messages by this author
Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2004 08:50:24 GMT
Local: Mon, Oct 4 2004 1:50 am
Subject: Re: Future of Man: the Speciation Process
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fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) wrote in
news:768f7623.0409142034.7fe8e8b1@posting.google.com:
> That Evolution is stopped in relation to Reason doesn`t mean that the
> basic definition of the human species is not changing, only that this
> change is so slow that for practical purposes is irrelevant. And yet
> the basic requirements for the speciation process in Man are already
> given.
Genetic barriers between human sub-populations are much lower than those
that produce speciation in other animals. In fact, there is very LITTLE
chance of human speciation unless we have a huge catastrophe that
severely limits our numbers and causes communications and travel to break
down or we expand into the galaxy and set up isolated colonies around
other stars. At the moment, those are the only two scenarios that I can
think of that would actually cause humanity to bifurcate.
Alleged sociopolitical barriers to gene flow in human populations are
usually honored more in print and other media than they are in actual
fact.
Our cultural memes are just too short-lived, on average, to maintain the
40 or 50 thousand years of isolation needed to truly speciate a human
subpopulation.
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
A false witness is worse than no witness at all.
Reply
robert j. kolker Oct 4, 6:49 am show options
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From: "robert j. kolker" - Find messages by this author
Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2004 09:49:15 -0400
Local: Mon, Oct 4 2004 6:49 am
Subject: Re: Future of Man: the Speciation Process
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Dave Oldridge wrote:
> Alleged sociopolitical barriers to gene flow in human populations are
> usually honored more in print and other media than they are in actual
> fact.
> Our cultural memes are just too short-lived, on average, to maintain the
> 40 or 50 thousand years of isolation needed to truly speciate a human
> subpopulation.
In short, the human race is a litter of mutts. There are no true Breeds
left. From a political and social point of view I find that to be a Good
Thing.
There is yet another route to speciation. If we go LaMarkian and craft
our genome to fit a plan we can have subspecies of humans. Of course
there are dangers to that. Think of the Gypsy Moth and the African
Killer Bees as cases of unintended consequences. Perhaps we should leave
the job to Nature.
Bob Kolker
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Oct 14, 2:41 pm show options
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From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 14 Oct 2004 14:41:47 -0700
Local: Thurs, Oct 14 2004 2:41 pm
Subject: Re: Future of Man: the Speciation Process
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Jack Dominey wrote in message ...
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> Late to the thread, sorry.
> Follow-ups set to talk.origins and sci.skeptic, where I'm reading
> this.
> In sci.skeptic, <768f7623.0409301839.cce2...@posting.google.com>,
> fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) wrote:
> >evolution
> >is stopped for all practical matters, given the survival advantages of
> >Reason. It means that the selection criteria of fitness of the
> >strongest stops working for the human species.
> You misunderstand how evolution works.
> Homo sapien is now under somewhat more relaxed selection constraints.
> Mainly due to modern sanitation and medicine, many conditions no
> longer prevent individuals from leaving offspring. This means that
> *more* genetic variation can accumulate. In a very real sense, the
> rate of evolution has *increased*.
We are becoming more diverse than we would be under astringent
constraints, but the constraints are now of a *different* nature, not
_natural_ but social; we form our own selection environment that has
little to do with leaving numerous offspring. Think of Europe and
industrialized countries where birth rates have dropped.
But the fact is that *compared to Reason*, evolution is stopped. We
don;t need to evolve wings to fly: we invent planes after doing the
necessary sicence. In that sense evolution is syopped.
> > It breaks the natural
> >mechanisms under which life forms were formed (what a pun), like the
> >importance of having numerous offspring
> No, no, no. Any creature's evolutionary success can be measured by
> how many descendants it has in subsequent generations. Relaxed
> selection does not change this. We have increased the chance that
> children survive to adulthood, and with that, lowered the number of
> childbirths necessary to produce a given number of adult offspring.
> But from an evolutionary perspective, we only consider the ones that
> survive.
What matters evolutively speaking is to spread our genetic material,
not the number of offspring we leave. The more, he better, in a
natural environment. We no longer need to meet that requirement. WHole
family lines survive with one or two descendants per generation. But
many more people now can opt not to leave offspring. That is
*unnatural* but for Men it would be *unnatural* not to make use of
this prerrogative to choose. NOt using condoms is going back to
animalism becasue Reason can make use of them while irrational living
beings can't even consider the possibility.
Reply
General Theory of General Welfares
Only 1 message in topic
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Feb 9, 8:16 am show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ.research
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 8 Feb 2004 13:48:17 -0800
Local: Sun, Feb 8 2004 1:48 pm
Subject: General Theory of General Welfares
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Which values, expressed as preferences, generate optima for desirable
states-of-the-world, where desirable means a hierarchy of
values-preferences for some definition of gerenal welfare?
We should be able to find the hierarchies that give maxima over whole
families of welfare functions. This can lead to both social and
economical policy goals and direct political action geared toward
maximizing welfare.
The old marxian idea of class struggle can be seen as the struggle
among different generalized value hierarchies to impose itself as the
basis for an optimizable definition of general welfare. Class
dialectics would be the merging of the different hierarchies into a
single hierarchy respected by such society.
From this point of view it can be settled the question of wheter
"capitalist consumist values" do provide maximum welfare.
While there is no "maximum welfare", we cannot please everybody *at
the same time*, that can be done in successively. So history would be
a succession of general welfare states for groups of individuals
sharing a single preferences hierarchy.
Given an economic aggregate, what characteristic must have preferences
for any general welfare function that maximizes it?
Is this problem intractable? At least I assume it must be computable
and solvable.
This is work in progress.
Link between micro and macro Economics (theory of general welfares)
All 2 messages in topic - view as tree
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Mar 31, 11:22 pm show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ.research
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 31 Mar 2004 18:14:44 -0800
Local: Wed, Mar 31 2004 6:14 pm
Subject: Link between micro and macro Economics (theory of general welfares)
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Which values, expressed as preferences, generate optima for desirable
states-of-the-world, where desirable means a hierarchy of
values-preferences for some definition of general welfare?
By answering this question it is possible to interrelate
microeconomics and macroeconomics. It gives a formal way to manipulate
preferences and establish positive statements given the welfare
function(s) we are considering as assumption. The link between both
branches of Economics is thus established "from behind" as it were, by
going down to preferences and from them to consumer theory, and by
going down from a welfare function to a whole economic aggregate. And
since preferences are quite absatract, being an ordering of a given
set, this approach can be used for any orderable abstract set, such as
moral values. I believe interesting proofs of the formal tractability
of Ethics can be built this way. These are ideas I've been working on
for some time, yet I publish them since my notes were stolen by a pair
of teen thieves in Mexico in 2002. Any comments as to the development
of this idea will be greatly appreciated. (Sorry, post follow up link
didn't appear).
Danilo J. Bonsignore
visit ghamac dot org
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Apr 22, 9:43 pm show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ.research
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 22 Apr 2004 21:43:52 -0700
Local: Thurs, Apr 22 2004 9:43 pm
Subject: Re: Link between micro and macro Economics (theory of general welfares)
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A view of history
While there is no true general welfare (maximize for everybody's
preferences), it is possible to give maximum welfare to everybody but
not simultaneously. History can be seen as as a succession of general
welfare states for particular groups of individuals that share the
'same' preferences hierarchy. Peace epochs are then caracterized as
complementary and mutually exclusive sets of preferences (accepting
the statu quo; v.g. Egiptian teocracies), revolutions and dinasty
changes as the brusque and conflicting clash of hierarchies and
democracy is a periodic catastrophe controles by the dynamic of the
variation of electoral preferences...
Danilo J. Bonsignore
visit ghamac dot org
Reply
A question about Welfare (general theory)
All 5 messages in topic - view as tree
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Apr 22, 9:48 pm show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 22 Apr 2004 21:48:55 -0700
Local: Thurs, Apr 22 2004 9:48 pm
Subject: A question about Welfare (general theory)
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Which values, expressed as preferences, generate optima for desirable
states-of-the-world, where desirable means a hierarchy of
values-preferences for some definition of general welfare?
We should be able to find the hierarchies that give maxima over whole
families of welfare functions. This can lead to both social and
economical policy goals and direct political action geared toward
maximizing welfare.
The old marxian idea of class struggle can be seen as the struggle
among different generalized value hierarchies to impose itself as the
basis for an optimizable definition of general welfare. Class
dialectics would be the merging of the different hierarchies into a
single hierarchy respected by such society.
From this point of view it can be settled the question of wheter
"capitalist consumist values" do provide maximum welfare.
Micro and macro economics
By answering this question it is possible to interrelate
microeconomics and macroeconomics. It gives a formal way to
manipulate
preferences and establish positive statements given the welfare
function(s) we are considering as assumption. The link between both
branches of Economics is thus established "from behind" as it were,
by
going down to preferences and from them to consumer theory, and by
going down from a welfare function to a whole economic aggregate. And
since preferences are quite absatract, being an ordering of a given
set, this approach can be used for any orderable abstract set, such
as
moral values. I believe interesting proofs of the formal tractability
of Ethics can be built this way.
A view of history
While there is no true general welfare (maximize for everybody's
preferences), it is possible to give maximum welfare to everybody but
not simultaneously. History can be seen as as a succession of general
welfare states for particular groups of individuals that share the
'same' preferences hierarchy. Peace epochs are then caracterized as
complementary and mutually exclusive sets of preferences (accepting
the statu quo; v.g. Egiptian teocracies), revolutions and dinasty
changes as the brusque and conflicting clash of hierarchies and
democracy is a periodic catastrophe controles by the dynamic of the
variation of electoral preferences...
These are ideas I've been working on for some time, yet I publish
them since my notes were stolen by a pair of teen thieves in Mexico
in 2002. Any comments as to the development of this idea will be
greatly appreciated.
Danilo J. Bonsignore
visit ghamac dot org
Original notes in spanish:
Que valores expresados en preferencias generan optimos para
estados-del-mundo deseables, donde deseable significa una
jerarquيa de valores-preferencias encabezada por una definicion
de Bienestar General? Desde una teorيa economica del Bienestar,
se enlaza la macroeconomيa con la teorيa del
consumidor-tomador-de-desiciones individual. Mientras se vea a la
etica y la economia como estructuras linguisticas, no se puede atacar
el problema de las preferencias, pero considerandolo en su estructura
abstracta como jerarquia La lucha de clases puede verse como la lucha
de diversas jerarquيas generalizadas de
preferencias por imponerse como la base para una definicion
optimizable del bienestar general. La dialectica de la lucha de clases
consiste entonces en el merge de las distintas jerarquيas de
clases en una nueva jerarquيa que defina el bienestar general.
Error de Marx: asumir 2 jerarquيas, propietarios capitalistas y
trabajadores.Al lump en la misma clase capitalistas y gobernantes
(realeza), abriَ paso a la Revoluciَn como toma del poder
por la clase economica de los trabajadores y su resultado como
dictadura del proletariado, que se traduce en la practica en Estado
comunista dicatatorial y su concomitante resistencia. La dialectica
staliniana asumio la forma de encarcelamiento generalizado y masacres
particulares; la dialetica maoista tomo la forma de adoctrinamiento
generalizado y asesinatos selectivos.
Mientras que no existe el bienestar general, sي podemos darle el
m´ximo bienestar a todos pero no simultaneamente en el tiempo. La
historia puede verse entonces como la sucesion de estados de bienestar
general para grupos particulares de individuos que comparten una misma
jerarquia de preferncias. Los momentos de paz se caracterizan entonces
como conjuntos complementarios y excluyentes de preferencias
(aceptaciَn del statu quo, maximo ejemplo teocracias egipcias
antiguas), las revoluciones y cambios de dinastia como conflicto y
cambio brusco de jerarquيas dominantes y la democracia como una
catastrofe periodica controlada por la dinamica de variacion de las
peferencias electorales
Dado este conjunto de jerarquias de preferencias, cuales son los
resultados de la aplicacion de la definicion resultante de bienestar
general?
Dado un agregado economico objetivo, para cualquier definicion de BG
que lo maximice como (deben ser en la realidad o) son las
jerarquيas de preferencias (polيtica economica)? En
tiempos de guerra la variable objetivo es la producciَn
Danilo J. Bonsignore
(Fabrizio J. Bonsignore)
visit ghamac dot org
Reply
Ron Peterson Apr 23, 6:53 am show options
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From: Ron Peterson - Find messages by this author
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:53:42 -0000
Local: Fri, Apr 23 2004 6:53 am
Subject: Re: A question about Welfare (general theory)
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Fabrizio J. Bonsignore wrote:
> Which values, expressed as preferences, generate optima for desirable
> states-of-the-world, where desirable means a hierarchy of
> values-preferences for some definition of general welfare?
> We should be able to find the hierarchies that give maxima over whole
> families of welfare functions. This can lead to both social and
> economical policy goals and direct political action geared toward
> maximizing welfare.
I think that it would be better just to try to maximize economic
production, but that's assuming that maximizing is possible.
There are other constraints that need to be considered such as the
need to eliminate war, crime, and impoverishment.
> The old marxian idea of class struggle can be seen as the struggle
> among different generalized value hierarchies to impose itself as the
> basis for an optimizable definition of general welfare. Class
> dialectics would be the merging of the different hierarchies into a
> single hierarchy respected by such society.
What do you mean? Is the class struggle about dividing up economic
production?
> From this point of view it can be settled the question of wheter
> "capitalist consumist values" do provide maximum welfare.
Weren't there consumers around before capitalism?
--
Ron
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Apr 30, 2:06 pm show options
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From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 30 Apr 2004 14:06:58 -0700
Local: Fri, Apr 30 2004 2:06 pm
Subject: Re: A question about Welfare (general theory)
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Ron Peterson wrote in message ...
> Fabrizio J. Bonsignore wrote:
> > Which values, expressed as preferences, generate optima for desirable
> > states-of-the-world, where desirable means a hierarchy of
> > values-preferences for some definition of general welfare?
> > We should be able to find the hierarchies that give maxima over whole
> > families of welfare functions. This can lead to both social and
> > economical policy goals and direct political action geared toward
> > maximizing welfare.
> I think that it would be better just to try to maximize economic
> production, but that's assuming that maximizing is possible.
> There are other constraints that need to be considered such as the
> need to eliminate war, crime, and impoverishment.
From an economic theory point of view, production would be the
variable to maximize, for it means goods to be distributed on one hand
and income to vie for goods on the other. But other variables may be
considered, like disposable income (max future production from income
multipliers) or savings (max future consumption). It depends on the
family of welfare functions considered.
Yet I am taking preferences in a broad sense, and so, given suitable
representations (abstractions), preferences can be taken over the
whole space of orderable entities, including moral values. At this
level of abstraction we would be dealing not with economic production
only but with the whole spectrum of Ethics. Maybe that was what Adam
Smith though of at some point during his development.
> > The old marxian idea of class struggle can be seen as the struggle
> > among different generalized value hierarchies to impose itself as the
> > basis for an optimizable definition of general welfare. Class
> > dialectics would be the merging of the different hierarchies into a
> > single hierarchy respected by such society.
> What do you mean? Is the class struggle about dividing up economic
> production?
I am not particularly akin to the idea of class struggle. It seems to
be an slanted form of the concept of economic competition. But under
this train of thought, more than dividing economic production class
struggle, it would be about _deciding_ economic production.
Proletarians (to use the terminology) would like more food or
clothing, for instance, while capitalists would want more luxuries.
Ultimately we all want approximately the same things, if not exactly
the same things, considering that sets of characteristics can be
disregarded at a suitable level of abstraction (tvs are tvs,
disregarding size or flatness). Though the reality of scarcity
prevents to provide everything to all. What old Marx didn't take into
account was that wealth accumulates (through techonolgical
advancement), and rich societies nowadays provide portable electronics
to even the poorest of people...
> > From this point of view it can be settled the question of wheter
> > "capitalist consumist values" do provide maximum welfare.
> Weren't there consumers around before capitalism?
Of course. There's people who question "consumism" as the bane of
capitalism. If we express "consumism" as a hierarchy and show it
maximizes attainable welfare functions, as opposed to "non-consumist"
hierarchies, this critic to capitalism can be set aside for good.
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Apr 30, 2:07 pm show options
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From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 30 Apr 2004 14:07:03 -0700
Local: Fri, Apr 30 2004 2:07 pm
Subject: Re: A question about Welfare (general theory)
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Ron Peterson wrote in message ...
> Fabrizio J. Bonsignore wrote:
> > Which values, expressed as preferences, generate optima for desirable
> > states-of-the-world, where desirable means a hierarchy of
> > values-preferences for some definition of general welfare?
> > We should be able to find the hierarchies that give maxima over whole
> > families of welfare functions. This can lead to both social and
> > economical policy goals and direct political action geared toward
> > maximizing welfare.
> I think that it would be better just to try to maximize economic
> production, but that's assuming that maximizing is possible.
> There are other constraints that need to be considered such as the
> need to eliminate war, crime, and impoverishment.
From an economic theory point of view, production would be the
variable to maximize, for it means goods to be distributed on one hand
and income to vie for goods on the other. But other variables may be
considered, like disposable income (max future production from income
multipliers) or savings (max future consumption). It depends on the
family of welfare functions considered.
Yet I am taking preferences in a broad sense, and so, given suitable
representations (abstractions), preferences can be taken over the
whole space of orderable entities, including moral values. At this
level of abstraction we would be dealing not with economic production
only but with the whole spectrum of Ethics. Maybe that was what Adam
Smith though of at some point during his development.
> > The old marxian idea of class struggle can be seen as the struggle
> > among different generalized value hierarchies to impose itself as the
> > basis for an optimizable definition of general welfare. Class
> > dialectics would be the merging of the different hierarchies into a
> > single hierarchy respected by such society.
> What do you mean? Is the class struggle about dividing up economic
> production?
I am not particularly akin to the idea of class struggle. It seems to
be an slanted form of the concept of economic competition. But under
this train of thought, more than dividing economic production class
struggle, it would be about _deciding_ economic production.
Proletarians (to use the terminology) would like more food or
clothing, for instance, while capitalists would want more luxuries.
Ultimately we all want approximately the same things, if not exactly
the same things, considering that sets of characteristics can be
disregarded at a suitable level of abstraction (tvs are tvs,
disregarding size or flatness). Though the reality of scarcity
prevents to provide everything to all. What old Marx didn't take into
account was that wealth accumulates (through techonolgical
advancement), and rich societies nowadays provide portable electronics
to even the poorest of people...
> > From this point of view it can be settled the question of wheter
> > "capitalist consumist values" do provide maximum welfare.
> Weren't there consumers around before capitalism?
Of course. There's people who question "consumism" as the bane of
capitalism. If we express "consumism" as a hierarchy and show it
maximizes attainable welfare functions, as opposed to "non-consumist"
hierarchies, this critic to capitalism can be set aside for good
.
Reply
Ron Peterson Apr 30, 9:55 pm show options
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From: Ron Peterson - Find messages by this author
Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 04:55:44 -0000
Local: Fri, Apr 30 2004 9:55 pm
Subject: Re: A question about Welfare (general theory)
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Fabrizio J. Bonsignore wrote:
> ... What old Marx didn't take into account was that wealth
> accumulates (through techonolgical advancement), and rich societies
> nowadays provide portable electronics to even the poorest of people...
I think that Marx is acknowledging technological advancement when he
says " the proportions which the expansion of the productive process may
assume are not arbitrary but prescribed by technology".
--
Ron
Reply
The Welfare question: a tool
Only 1 message in topic
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Oct 15, 3:45 pm show options
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From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 15 Oct 2004 15:45:50 -0700
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Subject: The Welfare question: a tool
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Which values, expressed as preferences, generate optima for desirable
states-of-the-world, where desirable means a hierarchy of
values-preferences for some definition of general welfare?
This question is meant as a tool. For what? To find a feasible bliss
point that maximizes welfare. It is not a quaestion-and-answer
exercise.
(I sent this idea to the nobel prize commitee; I do trust their moral
authority to attest authorship).
I repost rest of (original) post.
We should be able to find the hierarchies that give maxima over whole
families of welfare functions. This can lead to both social and
economical policy goals and direct political action geared toward
maximizing welfare.
The old marxian idea of class struggle can be seen as the struggle
among different generalized value hierarchies to impose itself as the
basis for an optimizable definition of general welfare. Class
dialectics would be the merging of the different hierarchies into a
single hierarchy respected by such society.
From this point of view it can be settled the question of wheter
"capitalist consumist values" do provide maximum welfare.
Micro and macro economics
By answering this question it is possible to interrelate
microeconomics and macroeconomics. It gives a formal way to
manipulate
preferences and establish positive statements given the welfare
function(s) we are considering as assumption. The link between both
branches of Economics is thus established "from behind" as it were,
by
going down to preferences and from them to consumer theory, and by
going down from a welfare function to a whole economic aggregate. And
since preferences are quite absatract, being an ordering of a given
set, this approach can be used for any orderable abstract set, such
as
moral values. I believe interesting proofs of the formal tractability
of Ethics can be built this way.
A view of history
While there is no true general welfare (maximize for everybody's
preferences), it is possible to give maximum welfare to everybody but
not simultaneously. History can be seen as as a succession of general
welfare states for particular groups of individuals that share the
'same' preferences hierarchy. Peace epochs are then caracterized as
complementary and mutually exclusive sets of preferences (accepting
the statu quo; v.g. Egiptian teocracies), revolutions and dinasty
changes as the brusque and conflicting clash of hierarchies and
democracy is a periodic catastrophe controles by the dynamic of the
variation of electoral preferences...
These are ideas I've been working on for some time, yet I publish
them since my notes were stolen by a pair of teen thieves in Mexico
in 2002. Any comments as to the development of this idea will be
greatly appreciated.
Danilo J. Bonsignore
visit ghamac dot org
Original notes in spanish:
Que valores expresados en preferencias generan optimos para
estados-del-mundo deseables, donde deseable significa una
jerarquia de valores-preferencias encabezada por una definicion
de Bienestar General? Desde una teoria economica del Bienestar,
se enlaza la macroeconomia con la teoria del
consumidor-tomador-de-desiciones individual. Mientras se vea a la
etica y la economia como estructuras linguisticas, no se puede atacar
el problema de las preferencias, pero considerandolo en su estructura
abstracta como jerarquia La lucha de clases puede verse como la lucha
de diversas jerarquias generalizadas de
preferencias por imponerse como la base para una definicion
optimizable del bienestar general. La dialectica de la lucha de clases
consiste entonces en el merge de las distintas jerarquias de
clases en una nueva jerarquia que defina el bienestar general.
Error de Marx: asumir 2 jerarquias, propietarios capitalistas y
trabajadores.Al lump en la misma clase capitalistas y gobernantes
(realeza), abrio; paso a la Revolucion como toma del poder
por la clase economica de los trabajadores y su resultado como
dictadura del proletariado, que se traduce en la practica en Estado
comunista dicatatorial y su concomitante resistencia. La dialectica
staliniana asumio la forma de encarcelamiento generalizado y masacres
particulares; la dialetica maoista tomo la forma de adoctrinamiento
generalizado y asesinatos selectivos.
Mientras que no existe el bienestar general, si podemos darle el
maximo bienestar a todos pero no simultaneamente en el tiempo. La
historia puede verse entonces como la sucesion de estados de bienestar
general para grupos particulares de individuos que comparten una misma
jerarquia de preferncias. Los momentos de paz se caracterizan entonces
como conjuntos complementarios y excluyentes de preferencias
(aceptaciَn del statu quo, maximo ejemplo teocracias egipcias
antiguas), las revoluciones y cambios de dinastia como conflicto y
cambio brusco de jerarquيas dominantes y la democracia como una
catastrofe periodica controlada por la dinamica de variacion de las
peferencias electorales
Dado este conjunto de jerarquias de preferencias, cuales son los
resultados de la aplicacion de la definicion resultante de bienestar
general?
Dado un agregado economico objetivo, para cualquier definicion de BG
que lo maximice como (deben ser en la realidad o) son las
jerarquias de preferencias (politica economica)? En
tiempos de guerra la variable objetivo es la produccion
Danilo J. Bonsignore
(Fabrizio J. Bonsignore)
visit ghamac dot org
Reply
Economic control for autonomous robotic swarms
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Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Mar 29, 11:57 am show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ.research
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: 29 Mar 2004 11:22:12 -0800
Local: Mon, Mar 29 2004 11:22 am
Subject: Economic control for autonomous robotic swarms
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Continuing with the idea of generating local rules for the achievement
of global behavior (autoorganization phenomena), a price system would
be ideal for the control of swarms of autonomous robotic systems. One
of the main problems of Economics as science is the perception of the
object of study. A robotic swarm might implement direct perception of
prices and use them as a basis to coordinate robotic actions. Actions
would be selected according to their utility, given the price that
action would command in the 'market' and the cost to the robot in
terms of energy, risk, etc. Since preferences can be known, behaviour
can be tuned by ordering robotic preferences and then using prices to
control the dynamic of the system and directing the swarm's actions.
Needed actions would command high prices, and once a given number of
robots perform that action, prices would fall to signal that other
actions are now more valuable. Since robots are not people, different
reinterpretation of preferences, utility, costs and prices would lead
to several different control schemes. Again, these are ideas still
under development.
Alternative homo oeconomicus
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Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Jan 25 2002, 5:00 am show options
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From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:26:22 GMT
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Subject: Alternative homo oeconomicus
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Can anybody point me to alternative models to homo oeconomicus? Thanx.
Reply
The Second Jan 25 2002, 8:45 am show options
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From: thesecondb...@mail.com (The Second) - Find messages by this author
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 16:26:02 GMT
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Subject: Re: Alternative homo oeconomicus
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Status: R
Your question is so open that I lack the knowledge to answer it. But
it gives me an occasion to vent to the newsgroup an idea of mine that
I have very close at heart.
In the last 10-15 years models of behavioral economics have been
cropping up like mushrooms, now we have so much that it is difficult
to keep up.
On the other hand nobody even attempted (to my knowledge, I would be
glad to be proven wrong) to come up with an alternative framework, to
unify all these behavioral glitches. To say it in the language of the
original poster, nobody has even attempted to come up with an
alternative model of homo economicus (well, Gilboa and Schmeidler are
convinced that they have it with their Case-Based Decision Theory, no
comment).
I think that there is A LOT to be learnt from a new unifying framewok,
because it is clear that these glitches studied by behavioral
economists have deep interactions (e.g. how procrastination a la
Rabin-O'Dougerty interacts with self-image a la Benabou-Tirole?)
On a related but distinct points, we have to find a way to put
priorities on these blessed behavioral models. Some effects matter
more than others in their impact on the quantities economists have
been interested (market structure, prices, savings...). So that's
another reason why having a unifying framework would be good.
On Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:26:22 GMT, fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio
J. Bonsignore) wrote:
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>Status: RO
>Can anybody point me to alternative models to homo oeconomicus? Thanx.
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Jan 26 2002, 9:45 am show options
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From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 17:32:29 GMT
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Subject: Re: Alternative homo oeconomicus
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Most welcomed was the second posting, indeed! Behavioural economics is
not my interest, though are not anomallies the signal that point the
paths to new theories? Yet, a mere collection of (perceived as)
isolated facts does not make a science. I'm acquainted with case based
reasoning, evidential reasoning and other schemes from the field of
cognitive systems, but they are not the kind of model I'm inquirying
about. The initial intuition is that we can enrich the homo
oeconomicus view of Humanity in some way so that it would yield
results more consistent with chronic under-development or economic
policy ineffectiveness. But yes, such a model may unify otherwise
unrelated facts, leaving core economics unchanged; may bring economic
theory nearer to 'real reality' and solve many minor paradoxes.
Anyway, it's healthy to question foundations every now and then, if
only to reassert their soundness or necessity. Few people I've asked
actually identify themselves with homo oeconomicus and many fight the
whole notion altogether, yet we have to argument giving for granted
the model is relevant and valid. Rather tough sometimes, I'd say. Any
more ideas for directions to look at or who might support an
independent reasercher on the theme?
Reply
Koen Robeys Jan 27 2002, 5:30 pm show options
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From: "Koen Robeys" - Find messages by this author
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 19:43:28 GMT
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Subject: Re: Alternative homo oeconomicus
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"Fabrizio J. Bonsignore" wrote
> Can anybody point me to alternative models to homo oeconomicus? Thanx.
What exactly do you mean by a "homo oeconomics model"? My guess would be it
means the view that human behavior is best understood from an economic point
of view. In that case you would be looking for different kinds of
anthropology. Or you might mean alternative models *within* economics, and
then my guess is wrong (in which case I have no clue of what you're talking
about).
Cheers, Koen
Reply
micron5 Jan 27 2002, 5:30 pm show options
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From: "micron5" - Find messages by this author
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 20:32:10 GMT
Local: Sat, Jan 26 2002 12:32 pm
Subject: Re: Alternative homo oeconomicus
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[moderator's note - not sure what this has to do with the
assumption of the "rational individual" but what the heck - ak]
"Fabrizio J. Bonsignore" wrote in message
news:768f7623.0201260932.75d4b0e2@posting.google.com...
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> Status: R
>Any
> more ideas for directions to look at or who might support an
> independent reasercher on the theme?
http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/seeingPCW.html
Chapter 2. The Naked Emperor lays out in clear terms a lay person can easily
understand precisely how capitalism is 100 percent the reverse of -- and in
opposition to -- the market economy envisioned by Adam Smith, "the father of
modern economics".
The theory of the market economy traces back to the Scottish economist Adam
Smith (1723-1790) and the publication of Inquiry into the Nature and Causes
of the Wealth of Nations in 1776. Considered by many to be the most
influential economics book ever written, it articulates the powerful and
wonderfully democratic ideal of a self-organizing economy that creates an
equitable and socially optimal allocation of a society's productive
resources through the interaction of small buyers and sellers making
decisions based on their individual needs and interests.
Market theory, as articulated by Smith and those who subsequently elaborated
on his ideas, developed into an elegant and coherent intellectual
construction grounded in carefully articulated assumptions regarding the
conditions under which such self-organizing processes would indeed lead to
socially optimal outcomes. For exampled,
Buyers and sellers must be too small to influence the market price.
Complete information must be available to all participants and there can be
no trade secrets.
Sellers must bear the full cost of the products they sell and pass them on
in the sale price.
Investment capital must remain within national borders and trade between
countries must be balanced.
Savings must be invested in the creation of productive capital.
There is, however, a critical problem, as international financier George
Soros has observed: "Economic theory is an axiomatic system: as long as the
basic assumptions hold, the conclusions follow. But when we examine the
assumptions closely, we find that they do not apply to the real world."
Herein lies the catch: the conditions of what we currently call a capitalist
economy directly contradict the assumptions of market theory in every
instance.[9]
One of the false myths ideologues of capitalism use to promote the song of
money is that capitalism is simply a fulfillment and realization of the
principles of a market economy as defined by Adam Smith.
I want to focus here for a moment on the the central importance of an
ethical culture to an efficient market. One of capitalism's many myths is
the idea that by some wondrous mechanism the market automatically turns
personal greed into a public good. Why? Because Adam Smith said so. In
truth, the market has no such mechanism and furthermore Adam Smith never
said it did. . . . Adam Smith also wrote The Theory of Moral Sentiments
which is exactly about the foundations of an ethical culture which he
clearly assumed was the cultural backdrop of the market he was writing
about. Efficient market function absolutely depends on a culture of trust
and mutual responsibility. To emphasize this fact, I refer in my forthcoming
book, The Post-Corporate World, to the mindful market in order to underscore
the importance to efficient market function of an ethical culture that
encourages individuals to act with mindfulness of both their personal needs
and the needs of the larger whole of the community, and the society, and the
planet.[10]
"Business/Economics" is the topic categorization on the back cover of The
Post-Corporate World. David Korten's background has given him a wealth of
experience in this arena.
Trained in economics, organization theory, and business strategy with M.B.A.
and Ph. D. degrees from the Stanford University Graduate School of Business
[he has] over thirty-five years of experience in preeminent business,
academic, and international development institutions as well as in
contemporary citizen action organizations.[11]
Reply
micron5 Jan 28 2002, 6:15 am show options
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From: "micron5" - Find messages by this author
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 05:40:47 GMT
Local: Sun, Jan 27 2002 9:40 pm
Subject: Re: Alternative homo oeconomicus
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"micron5" wrote in message
news:enE48.6131$M3.1142417@news1.telusplanet.net...
> [moderator's note - not sure what this has to do with the
> assumption of the "rational individual" but what the heck - ak]
Thank you. What constitutes rationality could be
a discussion in itself.
dp
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> "Fabrizio J. Bonsignore" wrote in message
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> > Status: R
> >Any
> > more ideas for directions to look at or who might support an
> > independent reasercher on the theme?
> http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/seeingPCW.html
> Chapter 2. The Naked Emperor lays out in clear terms a lay person can
easily
> understand precisely how capitalism is 100 percent the reverse of -- and
in
> opposition to -- the market economy envisioned by Adam Smith, "the father
of
> modern economics".
> The theory of the market economy traces back to the Scottish economist
Adam
> Smith (1723-1790) and the publication of Inquiry into the Nature and
Causes
> of the Wealth of Nations in 1776. Considered by many to be the most
> influential economics book ever written, it articulates the powerful and
> wonderfully democratic ideal of a self-organizing economy that creates an
> equitable and socially optimal allocation of a society's productive
> resources through the interaction of small buyers and sellers making
> decisions based on their individual needs and interests.
> Market theory, as articulated by Smith and those who subsequently
elaborated
> on his ideas, developed into an elegant and coherent intellectual
> construction grounded in carefully articulated assumptions regarding the
> conditions under which such self-organizing processes would indeed lead to
> socially optimal outcomes. For exampled,
> Buyers and sellers must be too small to influence the market price.
> Complete information must be available to all participants and there can
be
> no trade secrets.
> Sellers must bear the full cost of the products they sell and pass them on
> in the sale price.
> Investment capital must remain within national borders and trade between
> countries must be balanced.
> Savings must be invested in the creation of productive capital.
> There is, however, a critical problem, as international financier George
> Soros has observed: "Economic theory is an axiomatic system: as long as
the
> basic assumptions hold, the conclusions follow. But when we examine the
> assumptions closely, we find that they do not apply to the real world."
> Herein lies the catch: the conditions of what we currently call a
capitalist
> economy directly contradict the assumptions of market theory in every
> instance.[9]
> One of the false myths ideologues of capitalism use to promote the song of
> money is that capitalism is simply a fulfillment and realization of the
> principles of a market economy as defined by Adam Smith.
> I want to focus here for a moment on the the central importance of an
> ethical culture to an efficient market. One of capitalism's many myths is
> the idea that by some wondrous mechanism the market automatically turns
> personal greed into a public good. Why? Because Adam Smith said so. In
> truth, the market has no such mechanism and furthermore Adam Smith never
> said it did. . . . Adam Smith also wrote The Theory of Moral Sentiments
> which is exactly about the foundations of an ethical culture which he
> clearly assumed was the cultural backdrop of the market he was writing
> about. Efficient market function absolutely depends on a culture of trust
> and mutual responsibility. To emphasize this fact, I refer in my
forthcoming
> book, The Post-Corporate World, to the mindful market in order to
underscore
> the importance to efficient market function of an ethical culture that
> encourages individuals to act with mindfulness of both their personal
needs
> and the needs of the larger whole of the community, and the society, and
the
> planet.[10]
> "Business/Economics" is the topic categorization on the back cover of The
> Post-Corporate World. David Korten's background has given him a wealth of
> experience in this arena.
> Trained in economics, organization theory, and business strategy with
M.B.A.
> and Ph. D. degrees from the Stanford University Graduate School of
Business
> [he has] over thirty-five years of experience in preeminent business,
> academic, and international development institutions as well as in
> contemporary citizen action organizations.[11]
Reply
Robert Vienneau Jan 28 2002, 9:15 pm show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.econ.research
From: Robert Vienneau - Find messages by this author
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 20:44:45 GMT
Local: Mon, Jan 28 2002 12:44 pm
Subject: Re: Alternative homo oeconomicus
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In article <768f7623.0201260932.75d4b...@posting.google.com>,
fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) wrote:
> Any
> more ideas for directions to look at or who might support an
> independent reasercher on the theme?
Notice William Hummel's post of today titled "Money and Irrationality".
That is a popular presentation of some ideas in which I think you
might be interested.
--
Try http://csf.colorado.edu/pkt/pktauthors/Vienneau.Robert/Bukharin.html
r c .../Keynes.html
v s a Whether strength of body or of mind, or wisdom, or
i m p virtue, are found in proportion to the power or wealth
e a e of a man is a question fit perhaps to be discussed by
n e . slaves in the hearing of their masters, but highly
[moderator's note - I presume the author is referring to a sci.econ
post - ak]
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Jan 29 2002, 6:23 am show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.econ.research
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:32:20 GMT
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Subject: Re: Alternative homo oeconomicus
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"Koen Robeys" wrote in message ...
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> "Fabrizio J. Bonsignore" wrote
> > Can anybody point me to alternative models to homo oeconomicus? Thanx.
> What exactly do you mean by a "homo oeconomics model"? My guess would be it
> means the view that human behavior is best understood from an economic point
> of view. In that case you would be looking for different kinds of
> anthropology. Or you might mean alternative models *within* economics, and
> then my guess is wrong (in which case I have no clue of what you're talking
> about).
> Cheers, Koen
The question was phrased rather openly to avoid putting into it more
than necessary in order to facilitate lateral thinking, but I did mean
models *within* economics. Yet, you saw the question from the
_outside_ as it were, where the economic point of view can be
separated from how people actually behave. There are non-human animal
behaviour explanations from an economic viewpoint, v.g. optimum
nurturing time and evolutionary stable strategies, so it seems
economic thinking has a greater scope than human affairs and stands up
by itself. Physical and computing systems tend to perform economically
at efficient levels, ones by nature, the others by design. So we would
be having a general reality model being applied to the most
interesting case, humans, and holding, but it may be missing
altogether what makes humans a special case, even though it serves
perfectly to explain the human-only phenomena brought out by this
hypothetical human-only characteristic.
For homo economicus I understand the self-interested utility
maximizing individual exhibiting rational preferences. It would be
nice to have a comparative study detailing present and past ethnical
societies solutions to their resources problem, to see how well they
conform to this model, though adequate data may be scarce and hard to
gather. Economic thinking is historically a western development and is
subtly biased by western culture, so homo economicus may well be an
adequate way to model how westerners act on average, but a poor model
for other societies as anthropology reveals them. Almost every time
some behaviour pattern is presented as 'normal', an ethnic study will
show a culture where the opposite is normal. How would a capital
accumulation scenario be modified if say forest exploitation is
governed by ritual rules instead of rational value/profit maximizing
goals? Following ritual may increase utility for tribe's members, but
observable quantities and patterns would still diverge from expected
by econom(etr)ic analysis. Should be treated as a special case, a
glitch, the result of unincluded unobservable variables or a hint to
research other approaches? Such behaviours may lie at the core of
chronic underdevelopment, with economic policy failures being a
natural consequence.
London School of Economics Anthropology Department, monographies:
http://www.lse.ac.uk/Depts/anthropology/monographlist.htm
A text on economics of antiquity:
http://members.tripod.com/~sondmor/index-html
I received an email proposing homo sociologus and homo irrationalis.
Homo sociologus is more specific than homo economicus and the kind of
man model that would arouse from anthropology. Homo economicus exists
without reference to others, hence the multiple Robinson Crusoe
examples, while homo sociologus loses meaning without considering the
existence of other homini. But what if homo sociologus is actually the
right model to begin with and homo economicus is in fact a more
general model? Scientific models should be simple, but not simpler
than they must be to explain their chunk of reality.
Homo economicus depicts a strictly locally determined behaviour
leading to self-organizing global phenomena, but is the development of
language what *allows* us to introduce global state into individual
decisions; many discrepancies may be rooted in this kind of
*contamination of decisions*. As derived from homo economicus,
(competitive) markets assume only a very basic symbolic capacity and
little more for actors to participate, a reason why commerce is, after
war and slavery, the first kind of interaction societies engage in
when first meeting, but being successful in the market is more a
matter of flexible strategic behaviour. Homo economicus is monolithic
and crystalline, while homo sociologus might allow several equivalent
flavors to choose from. In such case, economic policy would be more a
matter of public education than an issue of monetary control (fixed
growth rate) and public finance (balanced budget), having as goal
changing a society's culture as to make individuals conform with a
more suitable (economically successful) behavioural model (not to be
confused with human capital growth by skills learning, though that
issue should be integral to such policies). So perhaps an alternative
to homo economicus is precisely *homo economicus sociabilis*.
Now, homo irrationalis is a completely different story. Modeling
irrationality by means of rational tools is at least paradoxical. But
rational models hold when applied to animal behaviour, so animals may
prove to be actually *more* rational than humans from an economic
point of view! Animals act in strict self-interested
gene-spreading-maximizing behaviour, while humans engage sometimes in
self-destructive altruistic behaviour. Irrationality may be approached
relaxing the transitive preferences condition and in other ways as
well; another thread asks how utility functions change with time, and
irrationality can be introduced within such dynamics (a thermodynamic
model *could* prove useful). Perhaps what we need is *homo economicus
temporalis irrationalis*, though tractability is a relevant issue,
too.
If current frameworks are overly general, then Economics needs the
equivalent to the newtonian physics revolution, having jumped right
into general relativity theory from the beginning (no wonder the
public feels dizzy!). Alternative models should get economic analysis
nearer to perceived reality, like endogenous growth theory. A new homo
economicus model should be readily expressed through toons and
drawings (math & graphs), so it is to be expected it will arise within
economics and not elsewhere. Also, alternative models may be
susceptible to research with computing tools like emulations or
searching algorithms like ga or gp, and could be highly relevant to
such things as nanotechonology design and robotic control. Ideally,
new homo oeconomicus should be an encompassing unique model with
special cases, as I see it.
Comments and objections are warmly welcomed.
Homo economicus sociabilis temporalis irrationalis, anyone?
(sorry for the bit of self-promotion but my credentials won't get me
the dark cubicle in a library I'm looking for without doing some
personal questioning and having someone speak for me, if need be;
moderator: edit this, if you wish d|:)
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Jan 29 2002, 7:45 am show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.econ.research
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 14:59:34 GMT
Local: Tues, Jan 29 2002 6:59 am
Subject: Re: Alternative homo oeconomicus
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"micron5" wrote in message ...
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> "micron5" wrote in message
> news:enE48.6131$M3.1142417@news1.telusplanet.net...
> > [moderator's note - not sure what this has to do with the
> > assumption of the "rational individual" but what the heck - ak]
> Thank you. What constitutes rationality could be
> a discussion in itself.
> dp
An understanding of rationality is at the core of the issues I'm
raising. Economics' rationality is different from philosophical
rationality (cognition) and has the limited sense of consistency of
preferences and preferring more to less. But I doubt we can find
animal examples that would fail to exhibit such characteristics;
inconsistencies in behaviour would be ironed out by selective
pressure. So it may be that either the rationality notion of homo
economicus needs to be expanded (including learning, communication,
foresighting, doubt or uncertainty), or it is not as central a factor
as has been assumed. Actually, rational man is often equated to
economic actor, specially if successful.
(snip)
> > Soros has observed: "Economic theory is an axiomatic system: as long as
> the
> > basic assumptions hold, the conclusions follow. But when we examine the
> > assumptions closely, we find that they do not apply to the real world."
The same is true of non-euclidean geometry, though it happens to be
the *true* framework of the universe under relativity, with euclidean
geometry a special case. Assumptions may delineate not reality but the
*essence* of reality. What really counts is that theory be falsifiable
and verifiable empirically. Einstein had a lot to say about scientific
imagination and directly jumping to principles as starting point of
theory, in contrast to painfully gather data and proceeding
inductively. To condition assumptions to faithfully reflect reality is
like expecting knowledge (episteme) to be always in agreement with
opinion (doxa). But of course, obvious axioms make things easier for
the layman.
> > Herein lies the catch: the conditions of what we currently call a
> capitalist
> > economy directly contradict the assumptions of market theory in every
> > instance.[9]
I always understood capitalism as the ideology that promotes (free)
markets and individual freedom of (economic) action, though of course
the author may prove me wrong. Unfortunately, there is no definition
of capitalism in the extract, so it cannot be discussed here (I guess
we'll all have to buy the book). Superficially, I fail to see the
contradiction, even with the hints.
> > One of the false myths ideologues of capitalism use to promote the song of
> > money is that capitalism is simply a fulfillment and realization of the
> > principles of a market economy as defined by Adam Smith.
Surely economies (and technology) have changed since Adam Smith... Are
people always subject to monetary illusion?
> > I want to focus here for a moment on the the central importance of an
> > ethical culture to an efficient market. One of capitalism's many myths is
This agrees with my thoughts. For instance, here in Mexico the
publishing editorial industry looks no different from other
countries', but you can't sell an idea to an editor and have an
advanced payment contract: you need a fully written volume editors can
chop at leisure before you see any money, unless, perhaps, if you are
already a known (to sell) author. This amounts to a vicious circle for
would-be entrepreneurial authors, who must assume the initial
investment to write the book, facing more uncertainty than needed (the
editorial house can be seen as a pool among known autors and new
authors). The general feeling is one of mistrust, linked to the
inability of the (corrupted) legal system to enforce laws with some
certainty (it's easy to flee with advanced payments and never be
convicted)... The challenge is to introduce that kind of *ethical*
considerations formally into the analysis.
> > the idea that by some wondrous mechanism the market automatically turns
> > personal greed into a public good. Why? Because Adam Smith said so. In
Never seen such an *ad baculum* fallacy in any self-organizing systems
text, yet.
> > about. Efficient market function absolutely depends on a culture of trust
> > and mutual responsibility.
May be what underdeveloped countries lack? But then the failure comes
not from capitalist ideologues, but from inability to perform
adequately within free markets: 'Many concur, but few are chosen'. I
visited the site and found the life part more a religious position
than a rational conclusion. If rampant capitalism has been the
dominant ideology, I fail to see how to 'create a world in which life
can flourish and prosper we must replace ... capitalism', when the
pressing concern is human overpopulation. Humanitarian catastrophies
occur in countries where capitalism has been unable to find solid
footing. There *may* be an alternative to capitalism the way the
author puts it, but then there *may* be an alternative for free
markets too, if some of the nanotechnologists' speculations turn true.
If we can have a fog composed of self-constructing, self-reproducing,
self-repairing, minuscule robots able to coalesce into any material or
artifact on will, where does that live the *scarce* part from the
resources problem once the initial stock of robots is in place? What
would remain to be allocated by markets?
The robot fog page:
http://discuss.foresight.org/~pcm/nano/rutgers/Ufog.html
<|,>
Reply
Koen Robeys Jan 29 2002, 2:45 pm show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.econ.research
From: "Koen Robeys" - Find messages by this author
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 21:45:53 GMT
Local: Tues, Jan 29 2002 1:45 pm
Subject: Re: Alternative homo oeconomicus
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"Fabrizio J. Bonsignore" wrote
Snippings. To be quite honest, I think I *don't* have a clue of what you're
talking about. Still, one point.
> For homo economicus I understand the self-interested utility
> maximizing individual exhibiting rational preferences. It would be
> nice to have a comparative study detailing present and past ethnical
> societies solutions to their resources problem, to see how well they
> conform to this model, though adequate data may be scarce and hard to
> gather.
To me, it looks like quite a few people, out of economics, have produced
anthropology's that did look at human behavior in such a way the resource
problem is only a means to a completely different end. "History is driven by
religion" (Arnold Toynbee) or "History is driven by the pleasure principle"
(Freud, maybe?) or "by power" (say: Nietzsche).
A case where history is again drive by religion is contemporary René Girard.
I could elaborate some, if you like, though it may be difficult to show in a
few paragraphs he has a rather consistent view on how economy is a minor
factor in human history. It may not be what you're looking for, and it may
be wrong anyway, and you would probably find it boring in the first place.
Cheers, Koen
Reply
micron5 Jan 29 2002, 4:00 pm show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.econ.research
From: "micron5" - Find messages by this author
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 22:42:56 GMT
Local: Tues, Jan 29 2002 2:42 pm
Subject: Re: Alternative homo oeconomicus
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"Fabrizio J. Bonsignore" wrote in message
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snip of some good points for brevity.
> If rampant capitalism has been the
> dominant ideology, I fail to see how to 'create a world in which life
> can flourish and prosper we must replace ... capitalism', when the
> pressing concern is human overpopulation.
One possible explanation is that capitalism as it
now exists cannot provide an adequate standard
of living for countries where the non-immigrant
population is still increasing. That is, a better
economic system could provide enough sense
of security so that the population of other countries
would stabilize or decline, as they have in the
'developed' countries (sans immigration).
The suboptimal system we now have can
arguably only provide this for a small portion
of the earth's population.
>Humanitarian catastrophies
> occur in countries where capitalism has been unable to find solid
> footing.
I don't wish to get bogged down in semantics,
but those who described communism as really
being state capitalism were correct I think. At
least communism as it was practiced in the
U.S.S.R. and elsewhere. It has to do with the
method of money issuance.
>There *may* be an alternative to capitalism the way the
> author puts it, but then there *may* be an alternative for free
> markets too, if some of the nanotechnologists' speculations turn true.
> If we can have a fog composed of self-constructing, self-reproducing,
> self-repairing, minuscule robots able to coalesce into any material or
> artifact on will, where does that live the *scarce* part from the
> resources problem once the initial stock of robots is in place? What
> would remain to be allocated by markets?
One answer given to this question by a futurist was
attention. That is, what part of someone's time would
they spend on you. This would depend on how they
valued the interaction of course.
Perhaps this link will help you a bit in your quest
for alternative views of economics.
http://www.csls.ca/pdf/aniel.pdf
dp
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> The robot fog page:
> http://discuss.foresight.org/~pcm/nano/rutgers/Ufog.html
> <|,>
Reply
Gordon D. Pusch Jan 29 2002, 9:00 pm show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.econ.research
From: gdpu...@NO.xnet.SPAM.com (Gordon D. Pusch) - Find messages by this author
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 04:18:22 GMT
Local: Tues, Jan 29 2002 8:18 pm
Subject: Re: Alternative homo oeconomicus
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"Koen Robeys" writes:
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> "Fabrizio J. Bonsignore" wrote
> Snippings. To be quite honest, I think I *don't* have a clue of what you're
> talking about. Still, one point.
>> For homo economicus I understand the self-interested utility
>> maximizing individual exhibiting rational preferences. It would be
>> nice to have a comparative study detailing present and past ethnical
>> societies solutions to their resources problem, to see how well they
>> conform to this model, though adequate data may be scarce and hard to
>> gather.
> To me, it looks like quite a few people, out of economics, have produced
> anthropology's that did look at human behavior in such a way the resource
> problem is only a means to a completely different end. "History is driven
> by religion" (Arnold Toynbee) or "History is driven by the pleasure
> principle" (Freud, maybe?) or "by power" (say: Nietzsche).
[...]
It is characteristic of human nature to oversimplify things by focusing
on a single facet of a problem and then attempting to convince themselves
it represents the entire diamond. Real human beings are driven by a complex
multiplicity of conflicting factors --- and money, power, pleasure, and
religious dogmas are merely a few of them. To attempt to reduce all human
behavior to only _one_ of these factors is quite myopic --- and unfortunately,
all too common.
-- Gordon D. Pusch
perl -e '$_ = "gdpusch\@NO.xnet.SPAM.com\n"; s/NO\.//; s/SPAM\.//; print;'
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Jan 30 2002, 4:23 am show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.econ.research
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 11:01:23 GMT
Local: Wed, Jan 30 2002 3:01 am
Subject: Re: Alternative homo oeconomicus
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Robert Vienneau wrote in message ...
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> In article <768f7623.0201260932.75d4b...@posting.google.com>,
> fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) wrote:
> > Any
> > more ideas for directions to look at or who might support an
> > independent reasercher on the theme?
> Notice William Hummel's post of today titled "Money and Irrationality".
> That is a popular presentation of some ideas in which I think you
> might be interested.
> --
> Try http://csf.colorado.edu/pkt/pktauthors/Vienneau.Robert/Bukharin.html
> r c .../Keynes.html
> v s a Whether strength of body or of mind, or wisdom, or
> i m p virtue, are found in proportion to the power or wealth
> e a e of a man is a question fit perhaps to be discussed by
> n e . slaves in the hearing of their masters, but highly
> [moderator's note - I presume the author is referring to a sci.econ
> post - ak]
Thanks for the lead, it certainly is kin thought, though I'll need
some time to think it over.
d'|:),
Reply
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore Jan 30 2002, 4:24 am show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.econ.research
From: fbonsign...@beethoven.com (Fabrizio J. Bonsignore) - Find messages by this author
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 11:46:24 GMT
Local: Wed, Jan 30 2002 3:46 am
Subject: Re: Alternative homo oeconomicus
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gdpu...@NO.xnet.SPAM.com (Gordon D. Pusch) wrote in message ...
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> "Koen Robeys" writes:
> > "Fabrizio J. Bonsignore" wrote
> > Snippings. To be quite honest, I think I *don't* have a clue of what you're
> > talking about. Still, one point.
> >> For homo economicus I understand the self-interested utility
> >> maximizing individual exhibiting rational preferences. It would be
> >> nice to have a comparative study detailing present and past ethnical
> >> societies solutions to their resources problem, to see how well they
> >> conform to this model, though adequate data may be scarce and hard to
> >> gather.
> > To me, it looks like quite a few people, out of economics, have produced
> > anthropology's that did look at human behavior in such a way the resource
> > problem is only a means to a completely different end. "History is driven
> > by religion" (Arnold Toynbee) or "History is driven by the pleasure
> > principle" (Freud, maybe?) or "by power" (say: Nietzsche).
> [...]
> It is characteristic of human nature to oversimplify things by focusing
> on a single facet of a problem and then attempting to convince themselves
> it represents the entire diamond. Real human beings are driven by a complex
> multiplicity of conflicting factors --- and money, power, pleasure, and
> religious dogmas are merely a few of them. To attempt to reduce all human
> behavior to only _one_ of these factors is quite myopic --- and unfortunately,
> all too common.
> -- Gordon D. Pusch
> perl -e '$_ = "gdpusch\@NO.xnet.SPAM.com\n"; s/NO\.//; s/SPAM\.//; print;'
Reality is ultimately chaotic while science attempts to find the
islands of order amidst chaos. But is a matter of intellectual honesty
to work on adequate models; too simple, and conclusions are
meaningless, too complex and they become intractable (for the tools of
the epoch, if not for ever). Reality will always be 'treasoned' by
science.
Truly Economics looks myopic compared to technological achievements,
despite its mathematization, but it too looks like it has the power to
overcome its deficiencies. Most people are not as complex as it seems,
actually people can be driven in any direction by the sheer power of
money; many act like one-track-minds.
Its true that religion is the *only* concern for so many that it's
really scaring. It has been the single most important consideration
for most of history, having shaped the life of many more humans than
any other ideology, be it social or scientific. The Rene Girard is a
very good lead; religion certainly imposes external constraints on the
homo oeconomicus model.
Reply
Helen Marsh Jan 30 2002, 4:24 am show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.econ.research
From: "Helen Marsh" - Find messages by this author
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 04:43:27 GMT
Local: Tues, Jan 29 2002 8:43 pm
Subject: Re: Alternative homo oeconomicus
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Hi - I'm new here - may I join in?
Fabrizio J. Bonsignore wrote in message
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> "Koen Robeys" wrote in message
...
> > X-Complaints-To: a...@skynet.be
> > Status: R
> > "Fabrizio J. Bonsignore" wrote
> > > Can anybody point me to alternative models to homo oeconomicus? Thanx.
> For homo economicus I understand the self-interested utility
> maximizing individual exhibiting rational preferences. It would be
> nice to have a comparative study detailing present and past ethnical
> societies solutions to their resources problem, to see how well they
> conform to this model, though adequate data may be scarce and hard to
> gather. Economic thinking is historically a western development and is
> subtly biased by western culture, so homo economicus may well be an
> adequate way to model how westerners act on average, but a poor model
> for other societies as anthropology reveals them. Almost every time
> some behaviour pattern is presented as 'normal', an ethnic study will
> show a culture where the opposite is normal. How would a capital
> accumulation scenario be modified if say forest exploitation is
> governed by ritual rules instead of rational value/profit maximizing
> goals? Following ritual may increase utility for tribe's members, but
> observable quantities and patterns would still diverge from expected
> by econom(etr)ic analysis.
Exactly - I don't see the need for an alternative to homo oeconomicus: I
always assume that preferences take into account myriad
social/ethical/religious/ritual etc. issues not to mention the information
cost idea - it may be costly to me to accurately determine my own
preferences. The problem is to get the full possibilites of the model
incorporated into the more quantitative parts of the discipline and policy
advise areas.
I have some problems with 'stable' preferences but assume that the need to
assume these is on a par with "all other things being equal" - it means that
they are stable for the period we are considering and for the purposes of
determining what is optimal at a particular point in time.
The important part of the theory to me is the idea that actions/decisions
reveal preferences. What it all means to me is that we accept that (mental
incapacity aside) people are better off making their own mistakes than they
are having someone else decide what is 'good' for them.
snip
> Homo economicus depicts a strictly locally determined behaviour
> leading to self-organizing global phenomena
OK - I could rename the concept I understand as homo economicus as homo
sociologus and accept a sub-category homo economicus - these would be
individuals who are only interested in material values, goods, services?,
and money not any kind of ethics or culture? Their preferences are only
determined by physical attributes and whether they are color blind? Fashion
is obviously a sociological construct. I know many whose theory seems to
assume such an individual - no I'm not sure most have fashion and snob value
in their theory - anyway I know few whose behaviour would place them in that
group.
snip
>In such case, economic policy would be more a
> matter of public education than an issue of monetary control (fixed
> growth rate) and public finance (balanced budget), having as goal
> changing a society's culture as to make individuals conform with a
> more suitable (economically successful) behavioural model (not to be
> confused with human capital growth by skills learning, though that
> issue should be integral to such policies).
Yes - public education to inform of consequences but are you also imagining
changing preferences. How do you define economically successful?
Helen Marsh
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David Friedman Jan 30 2002, 11:15 am show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.econ.research
From: David Friedman - Find messages by this author
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 18:20:26 GMT
Local: Wed, Jan 30 2002 10:20 am
Subject: Re: Alternative homo oeconomicus
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For one attempt to think about an alternative, motivated by modern work
in evolutionary psychology, see my draft webbed at:
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/econ_and_evol_psych/economics_...
evol_psych.html
--
David Friedman
www.daviddfriedman.com/
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Koen Robeys Jan 30 2002, 11:15 am show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.econ.research
From: "Koen Robeys" - Find messages by this author
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 18:05:53 GMT
Local: Wed, Jan 30 2002 10:05 am
Subject: Re: Alternative homo oeconomicus
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"Gordon D. Pusch" wrote
> > To me, it looks like quite a few people, out of economics, have produced
> > anthropology's that did look at human behavior in such a way the
resource
> > problem is only a means to a completely different end. "History is
driven
> > by religion" (Arnold Toynbee) or "History is driven by the pleasure
> > principle" (Freud, maybe?) or "by power" (say: Nietzsche).
> It is characteristic of human nature to oversimplify things by focusing
> on a single facet of a problem and then attempting to convince themselves
> it represents the entire diamond.
Exactly my opinion as well (including the diamond!). Now imagine that my
opinion of "homo economicus" is/was that it is just one more in the previous
list ("History is driven by economic considerations; say: Marx"). In that
case you take "economy" to mean some rather limited terrain of human
behavior, and you make it, well, too important. And still in that case, you
might want to compare with the findings of Freud, Nietzsche, Girard, and I
forgot my favorite: evolutionary theory.
But maybe "homo economicus" is meant to be broader? Maybe it means you won't
be able to avoid the "resources problem", no matter how hard you follow any
religion? In that case you would need to have some economic model of
whatever kind of society you have, and the question would become which of
different possible models you apply. And in this case, my possible
contribution would be paticularly limited.
Ciaooooooo, Koen
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Bob M Jan 30 2002, 7:15 pm show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.econ.research
From: Bob M - Find messages by this author
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 22:36:29 GMT
Local: Wed, Jan 30 2002 2:36 pm
Subject: Re: Alternative homo oeconomicus
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I found your analysis interesting and it raised a question about payment
systems. If the territorial instinct causes humans to place a high value on
objects in hand (coffee mugs in your essay) then an advantage of an advanced
payment system is the abstraction from objects that it provides. In a barter
economy, willingness to trade could be impeded because any object in hand for
bartering takes on a territorial value. Commodity money would still have
some territorial value because of attraction to the coins as objects. A
stack of currency has a little territorial value, a check probably less, and
a credit card has almost none since it is returned after the transaction.
David Friedman wrote:
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> For one attempt to think about an alternative, motivated by modern work
> in evolutionary psychology, see my draft webbed at:
> http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/econ_and_evol_psych/economics_...
> evol_psych.html
> --
> David Friedman
> www.daviddfriedman.com/
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David Friedman Jan 31 2002, 11:00 am show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.econ.research
From: d...@best.com (David Friedman) - Find messages by this author
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 18:52:28 GMT
Local: Thurs, Jan 31 2002 10:52 am
Subject: Re: Alternative homo oeconomicus
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Bob M wrote in message ...
> I found your analysis interesting and it raised a question about payment
> systems. If the territorial instinct causes humans to place a high value on
> objects in hand (coffee mugs in your essay) then an advantage of an advanced
> payment system is the abstraction from objects that it provides. In a barter
> economy, willingness to trade could be impeded because any object in hand for
> bartering takes on a territorial value. Commodity money would still have
> some territorial value because of attraction to the coins as objects. A
> stack of currency has a little territorial value, a check probably less, and
> a credit card has almost none since it is returned after the transaction.
Interesting point. It hadn't occurred to me; I don't know if it is
mentioned in the literature stemming from the coffee mug experiment
and similar work.
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Grinch Feb 1 2002, 8:01 am show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ
From: Grinch - Find messages by this author
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 10:59:59 -0500
Local: Fri, Feb 1 2002 7:59 am
Subject: Re: Alternative homo oeconomicus
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On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 18:20:26 GMT, David Friedman
wrote:
>For one attempt to think about an alternative, motivated by modern work
>in evolutionary psychology, see my draft webbed at:
>http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/econ_and_evol_psych/economics_...
The discussion of "just price" and the like brings to mind a quote
from an article in the science section of last week's NY Times that
touched on a related subject -- "fairness" and distribution in
hunter-gatherer societies....
~~
"'Hunter-gatherer societies are scrupulously egalitarian, but not
harmoniously so,' said Dr. Herbert Gintis of the University of
Massachusetts ... 'They are violently egalitarian.'"
~~
From "The Urge to Punish Cheats: Not Just Human, but Selfless",
1/22/02.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/22/science/social/22CHEA.html
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Grinch Feb 2 2002, 9:00 pm show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ,sci.econ.research
From: Grinch - Find messages by this author
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 23:12:58 GMT
Local: Thurs, Jan 31 2002 3:12 pm
Subject: Re: Alternative homo oeconomicus
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- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 18:20:26 GMT, David Friedman
wrote:
>For one attempt to think about an alternative, motivated by modern work
>in evolutionary psychology, see my draft webbed at:
>http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/econ_and_evol_psych/economics_...
The discussion of "just price" and the like brings to mind a quote
from an article in the science section of last week's NY Times that
touched on a related subject -- "fairness" and distribution in
hunter-gatherer societies....
~~
"'Hunter-gatherer societies are scrupulously egalitarian, but not
harmoniously so,' said Dr. Herbert Gintis of the University of
Massachusetts ... 'They are violently egalitarian.'"
~~
From "The Urge to Punish Cheats: Not Just Human, but Selfless",
1/22/02.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/22/science/social/22CHEA.html
Reply
Grinch Mar 18 2002, 12:50 pm show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ
From: Grinch - Find messages by this author
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 15:48:09 -0500
Local: Mon, Mar 18 2002 12:48 pm
Subject: Re: Alternative homo oeconomicus
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The alternative to the "invisible hand" of self-interest isn't
necessarily altruism...
~~
Economists chance upon irrational behaviour
ADAM SMITH famously argued that an invisible hand of self-interest
guides markets to beneficial results. Today, rational and unemotional
agents, rather than altruistic angels or envious demons, lie at the
centre of most equation-choked economic theories.
But a new paper, "Are People Willing to Pay to Reduce Others'
Incomes?", in the February issue of Annales d'Economie et de
Statistique, suggests that Smith should have paid more heed to another
hand: the one that cuts down tall poppies.
Daniel Zizzo of Oxford University and Andrew Oswald of Warwick
University crafted a series of experiments in which groups of four
people were given nearly equal sums of money. The four had to gamble
with their new wealth in random, computerised bets; two came out each
time with more cash, and two with less. Richer or poorer, each was
then given the chance to spend his money to reduce the take of his
fellow subjects. There was no prospect that this would make him any
richer. Indeed, it would cost him anywhere from two to 25 cents for
every dollar destroyed that belonged to his fellow players.
Economic man would surely never spend his money merely to hurt others,
while leaving himself poorer? The professors were shocked to find that
even at the price of 25 cents for every dollar burnt, 62% of the
participants paid for the privilege of impoverishing their peers. What
accounts for this?
One answer could be the players' sense of fairness. Another, of
course, could be envy or Schadenfreude. The poor souls who lose some
of their initial wealth like to burn the undeserving who receive a
lot. No surprise to novelists. But the idea that man is a social
animal, more concerned with relative rank and status than with
absolute well-being, sits awkwardly with economics.
Even the rich winners in the experiment like to see others taken down
a peg: they destroy the wealth of rich and poor alike. The authors
speculate that the plutocrats expect the plebeians, out of jealousy,
to destroy their wealth. Pre-emptive retaliation preserves their rank.
Nothing irrational about that.
~~~
From The Economist, 4/12/2002
How much of politics does that explain?
---
"
'Hunter-gatherer societies are scrupulously egalitarian, but not
harmoniously so,' said Dr. Herbert Gintis of the University of
Massachusetts ... 'They are violently egalitarian.'
"
Reply
cpw Mar 18 2002, 1:44 pm show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ
From: c...@ragwind.localdomain.net - Find messages by this author
Date: 18 Mar 2002 13:44:42 -0800
Local: Mon, Mar 18 2002 1:44 pm
Subject: Re: Alternative homo oeconomicus
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Grinch writes:
> The alternative to the "invisible hand" of self-interest isn't
> necessarily altruism...
> ~~
> Economists chance upon irrational behaviour
......
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
a new paper, "Are People Willing to Pay to Reduce Others'
> Incomes?", in the February issue of Annales d'Economie et de
> Statistique,
......
> Daniel Zizzo of Oxford University and Andrew Oswald of Warwick
> University crafted a series of experiments in which groups of four
> people were given nearly equal sums of money. The four had to gamble
> with their new wealth in random, computerised bets; two came out each
> time with more cash, and two with less. Richer or poorer, each was
> then given the chance to spend his money to reduce the take of his
> fellow subjects. There was no prospect that this would make him any
> richer. Indeed, it would cost him anywhere from two to 25 cents for
> every dollar destroyed that belonged to his fellow players.
> Economic man would surely never spend his money merely to hurt others,
> while leaving himself poorer? The professors were shocked to find that
> even at the price of 25 cents for every dollar burnt, 62% of the
> participants paid for the privilege of impoverishing their peers. What
> accounts for this?
......
> From The Economist, 4/12/2002
> How much of politics does that explain?
> ---
> "'Hunter-gatherer societies are scrupulously egalitarian, but not
> harmoniously so,' said Dr. Herbert Gintis of the University of
> Massachusetts ... 'They are violently egalitarian.'"
And I think the behavior makes sense in a hunter-gatherer setting.
The guy who is prospering may be competing against you for limited
food later on. If human behavior was shaped by that kind of environment
it makes sense. I'm actually kind of glad to see that it was 62%
instead of 100%. Some parts of human 'progress' are due to the 62%,
but other parts are due to that more altruistic 38%.
--
Replace ragwind.localdomain with rahul for a working email address
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Mike Coburn Mar 18 2002, 10:44 pm show options
Newsgroups: sci.econ
From: Mike Coburn - Find messages by this author
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 06:44:05 GMT
Local: Mon, Mar 18 2002 10:44 pm
Subject: Re: Alternative homo oeconomicus
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Grinch wrote:
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> The alternative to the "invisible hand" of self-interest isn't
> necessarily altruism...
> ~~
> Economists chance upon irrational behaviour
> ADAM SMITH famously argued that an invisible hand of self-interest
> guides markets to beneficial results. Today, rational and unemotional
> agents, rather than altruistic angels or envious demons, lie at the
> centre of most equation-choked economic theories.
> But a new paper, "Are People Willing to Pay to Reduce Others'
> Incomes?", in the February issue of Annales d'Economie et de
> Statistique, suggests that Smith should have paid more heed to another
> hand: the one that cuts down tall poppies.
> Daniel Zizzo of Oxford University and Andrew Oswald of Warwick
> University crafted a series of experiments in which groups of four
> people were given nearly equal sums of money. The four had to gamble
> with their new wealth in random, computerised bets; two came out each
> time with more cash, and two with less. Richer or poorer, each was
> then given the chance to spend his money to reduce the take of his
> fellow subjects. There was no prospect that this would make him any
> richer. Indeed, it would cost him anywhere from two to 25 cents for
> every dollar destroyed that belonged to his fellow players.
> Economic man would surely never spend his money merely to hurt others,
> while leaving himself poorer? The professors were shocked to find that
> even at the price of 25 cents for every dollar burnt, 62% of the
> participants paid for the privilege of impoverishing their peers. What
> accounts for this?
I wonder if there was any attempt to determine __*WHICH*__ 62% did
the buyouts. Your insinuation that the top X% will be made "poorer"
by destroying the quantity of money is a typical Republican
misdirection. If it only costs the boys at the top 25 cents to
remove $1.25 from the economy leaving the lower part totally
impoverished and willing to kiss ass all day long for a loaf
of bread then the Republicans have succeeded marvelously.
> One answer could be the players' sense of fairness.
Nope!
Another, of
> course, could be envy or Schadenfreude.
Nope!
The poor souls who lose some
> of their initial wealth like to burn the undeserving who receive a
> lot.
How presumptuous of you.
> No surprise to novelists.
So..... Nobody ever said _they_ were very bright.
> But the idea that man is a social
> animal, more concerned with relative rank and status than with
> absolute well-being, sits awkwardly with economics.
Not with Republican economics! The Republicans want all of what
was the middle class working their butts out in the fields with
all of the imported Mexicans. The rich sit on the porch and drink
a cool drink and talk about how unfair the tax system is and
how the bean pickers should be paying more of it. It's called
deflation, and those that have all the money are more than
happy with it. They even try to invent "wars" so they can
lend more money to the government.
> Even the rich winners in the experiment like to see others taken down
> a peg: they destroy the wealth of rich and poor alike. The authors
> speculate that the plutocrats expect the plebeians, out of jealousy,
> to destroy their wealth. Pre-emptive retaliation preserves their rank.
> Nothing irrational about that.
There is absolutely NOTHING irrational about rich people wanting
LESS money in circulation, and a lot more guns and enforcers.
--
Mike Coburn
"It's the tax system, stupid. No, it's the ludicrous
banking system. Well, actually, its both." -- Mike Coburn
"Rentier: A person who has a fixed income from land,
bonds, etc." -- Webster's dictionary.
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