r4zz3nd4hcub3n: i read half of moore's "dude, where's my country" today at the library
fbjourneykiD: havnt read tha tone
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: i sat and thought about what i thought about it for a half hour afterwards
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: he says so much that's idiotic and so much that's true. its hard to really sum it up
fbjourneykiD: my problem with michael moore, is that i like about 60 percent of what he's saying, but the other 40 just throw me off
fbjourneykiD: exactly
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: i think its more the way he presents his case that's idiotic
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: if he would actually back up some of his THIS IS A CRAZY LIBERAL STATEMENT!!!!!!!!
fbjourneykiD: read "stupid white men", its more of an 80/20 balance to truth and cool observations to white liberal guilt
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: then it would be better
fbjourneykiD: stupid white men was good for my high school
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: i agree with some of his thoughts on bush and corporations and PETA but for the most part i think he's just another liberal
fbjourneykiD: i dont think it would open your eyes tho, but still a good read
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: i still say conservatism as an ideology is good, but the people calling themselves conservatives twist things and make it look bad
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: like ann coulter
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: and so as a result moore thinks coulter is christian. sad.
fbjourneykiD: if he ran for president, id vote for him just becasue i know he has less of a chance than nader, and id be helping to sway the liberal vote away from the headlining democrats who are more likely to actually have an impact on our society
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: i haven't talked to much about kerry
fbjourneykiD: im not a fan
fbjourneykiD: i dont really like anybody that is running
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: i talked some to my old friend who currently attends Tufts who is like the ian ellis of the democratic party at Tufts
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: and has met kerry twice
fbjourneykiD: ive met leiberman
fbjourneykiD: my dad know shim
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: yeah well i've shook rick santorum's hand
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: and he's offended more people than lieberman
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: so ha
fbjourneykiD: i like a lot of wha tkerry says, a lot of it im unopinionated about, but i really disagree with allowing 15 year olds to abort a baby on tax dollars without parental consent, that one threw oe mff
fbjourneykiD: dean too
fbjourneykiD: edwards is only a little bit better
fbjourneykiD: i dont know hwo im going to vote
fbjourneykiD: ill probably give it to bush indirectly through nader
fbjourneykiD: that seems like the best plan for me
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: haha. gotta love nader.
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: as moore put it, the dems are "professional losers"
fbjourneykiD: northampton and amherst were among the only two cities in america in the 2000 election where nader actually got the majority vote
fbjourneykiD: i find that incredibly amusing
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: haha. yeah it is
fbjourneykiD: i have to finish my paper, blast you
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: ok. but sometime i want your opinion on whether or not we as christians should try to keep America a Christian nation or if we should just let it slide and focus on individuals
fbjourneykiD: i can do that now
fbjourneykiD: rather quickly
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: because the bible says that God will bless an entire nation if they follow his Word, but at the same time... its only because of individuals that the country is "christian" in the beginning
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: so are we morally obligated to infiltrate the government?
fbjourneykiD: but in my opion, what god is talking about is a nation that of it's own will follows his word
fbjourneykiD: not a nation that is manipulated by the clergy to vote "christian"
fbjourneykiD: we've got a looonnng way to go before we start following gods will as a country at large
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: yes, yes. i dont disgaree with that. but there is a difference between sticking the 10 commandments on public property and having devout christian handle their politics in a christian way. there is a huge difference
fbjourneykiD: oh definitly
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: but which one does consider good? both?
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: which one(s) are necessary for Him to bless us? i will shut up and let you type.
fbjourneykiD: but because of the way we structured our government 300 years ago, the way people think at the moment is the way the country will be run..but to more directly answer your question..i think we will be blessed when the hearts of the people are turned, and honeslt,y i think the evangelical church is so wayy off target right now, and regardless of where we post the 10 commandments, or how the few sincere christians act, god isnt going to bless america as a whole until we seriously sit back, figure out what we've done wrong, and repent
fbjourneykiD: jesus asks if there will be any faith when he returns
fbjourneykiD: and to me, considering the huge size of the evangelical church, and the apparent immanense of christs return, that is a rather drastic indictment on our church today
fbjourneykiD: its a big contradiction to look at the southern baptist convention, the general association of regular baptists, the national association of evangelicals..and then look at jesus asking if there will be faith when he returns
fbjourneykiD: something is wrong
fbjourneykiD: seriously wrong
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: ok so you think the nation as a whole needs to be moral. that is, not christian, but moral
fbjourneykiD: no
fbjourneykiD: we need to turn to god
fbjourneykiD: not christianity
fbjourneykiD: and that cant be superficial
fbjourneykiD: ..and sadly, it probbly wont happen
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: yeah. but when i use the word "christianity" i dont mean as a some state instituted theocracy or organization like catholicism, i mean genuine salvation in individuals
fbjourneykiD: just because we use the right words when we talk about things like salvation, committment, and the christian life, doesn't mean that our churches (im literally talking about our churches, my home church, your home church, CU, etc.) are going in the right direction, and im not saying that as to question to anybodys personal salvation, but when i look at our churches, i don't see true faith in them, i see true faith in some individuals, but the health of our churches is pretty bad
fbjourneykiD: that was in repsonce to your reference to catholacism
fbjourneykiD: is ee so much shallow faith
fbjourneykiD: i see so much emotion
fbjourneykiD: but i can't relate when people (like my dad) try to say that voting on issues like gay marriage is somehow going to ensure the continued spirituality of our nation
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: yes. i agree. but do we as christians have the moral obligation to defend placement of the 10 commandments in public places? are we obligated to say "yes, prayer should be part of the public school"
fbjourneykiD: it becomes more complicated there, we have a responsibility to evangalize, but when it comes down to something like prayer in schools, the spiritual raising of the children as modeled in the bible is exclusivly through the fathers, and giving that responsibility to the schools is silly
fbjourneykiD: and on a non spiritual leve, we have seperatoin of church and state..the public schools are a state organization, and if we want to keep church and state seperate, we cant expect them to incorporate spirituality
fbjourneykiD: and the 10 commandments thing, personally, i wouldnt pick a battle over it..having the 10 commandments posted somewhere means nothing, and god isnt going to bless a court house or public property just because they're there
fbjourneykiD: as long as the field stays fair, personally, i would shut up about it
fbjourneykiD: which means the public areas have to be free of all religious implication, not just christian
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: ok this is where i disagree. first, putting prayer in school doesnt give the school's the responsibility of a child's spirituality. not at all. i think its a very positive example on the children. and think---when schools had prayer, what was the worse problem? talking in class? gum chewing? now the question is will Billy walk into class with a sawed off shotgun and kill half his class
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: and the whole "separation of church and state" phrase has been manipulated and beaten so bad its just another slogan of our secular society to justify purging our country of all morality
fbjourneykiD: but if we have christian prayers in a state school, then every religion needs to be represented, and the second you have islamic prayers going on in a public school, the christians are going to freak out
fbjourneykiD: and, who are tehse people doing the praying?
fbjourneykiD: in my high school, there was not a single christian faculty or staff member
fbjourneykiD: and private prayer is allowed
fbjourneykiD: so i dont really see what the battle would be for..some jewish guy praying for a good day over the intercom?
fbjourneykiD: i actually think that today, it would be counter productive to your point about setting a good example of prayer
fbjourneykiD: for a lot of kids ina lot of schools, it would make prayer seem insignificant and routine
fbjourneykiD: did you lose any of my senile opinionated rambling when you got booted?
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: no, you see here is the problem: 1. christian prayer works. "works" as in give's the children a good morality that makes a huge difference, i think that's undeniable. 2. in order for 1 to be possible, the prayer needs to be prayer to the biblegod only. thus, america would have to be a christian nation, not a theocracy, but one that recognizes the christian god as the one true god.
fbjourneykiD: that would be great keith
fbjourneykiD: but its not going to happen
fbjourneykiD: we have to work with reality
fbjourneykiD: youd have to change the hearts of the entire nation, god can do that, but i dont really think our churches today are prepared for that kind of mission
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: no i'm not done. wait before you make sarcastic remarks. you've only read half my thought, which by itself is silly and utopian
fbjourneykiD: hah
fbjourneykiD: i dont send because i dont want that to happen
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: but then you dont have a country with freedom of religion. i think the problem is that Christians don't realize that we are a christian nation on our own accord, as individuals. therefore, we should not expect the tide to turn. but now god isn't blessing us like he once was. we are reaping what we sow. so do we have an obligation to bring america back onto our ground? or is our time over, should let things go as they may, and focus on ministry on individuals?
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: the problem with simply ignoring our country's moral plea is that we will reject the use of politics, which obviously is a huge huge factor. in this age of mass communication, politics can make a huge difference. but do you believe that christianity, by god's grace, can spread like a wildfire through a secular society with no moral political structure?
fbjourneykiD: well god can do whatever he wants, and he can do it in whatever way he wants to do it in (and you know this), so with that said, i dont think we should go onto either side of the pendulem on the issue
fbjourneykiD: we defnitly shouldnt drop out of the political scene
fbjourneykiD: but at the same time, we need to pick our battles over the things that really matter
fbjourneykiD: and establish the things that are just nostalgic reminders of our past spirituality
fbjourneykiD: like the 10 commandments thing, in my opinion
r4zz3nd4hcub3n: you mean do not establish the things that are merely nostalgic